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OT: salary negotiation
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This may sound silly but I need some advice on how to handle a salary negotiation for a new job. A little history about myself; I have never really had a real job before. I've worked at a coffee shop, for an ice skating rink, at a retail store, and for a small landscape company all when I was in high school. After high school I started my own landscaping company and grew it to a point where it was more attractive to sell it (the accounts / contracts, equipment and trucks) then to continue running it. Which brings me to my current predicament. I have a job lined up to begin after the 1st of the year. I know very little about the job other than it is in sales and a brief bit about what the company sells. It's a long story on how I got the job; in a nut shell it is a family friend who has known me for years. He mentioned he needed a salesman casually to me at a dinner party. I went into his office basically to see what they do and to get a few details about the position, etc. I have a meeting scheduled with him next week to hammer out some final details and to ask my many questions but unless he / I say something unexpected I'm expected / expecting to start 1-3-05.

The thing that I'm most curious / cautious about is the discussion about salary. I've never done anything like this before as the real jobs I've had were basic minimum (or very close) wage jobs. I don't know if when we have our sit down next week if when he says $xx,xxx if that is his first, last and best offer or if it is a jumping off point. I know what I need to live on and what I need to live the life I'd like to live on and (dreaming) to live the life I fantasize about. When he says $xx,xxx (assuming it's in the ballpark) do I just take it and be happy until the performance evaluation? Do I get a couple of days to think about it and research what similar positions are paying? I obviously know how to react if it is higher than what I'm expecting but what if it's considerably lower? Also, how does a salary negotiation go? I know what it's like to be on the other side of the table from doing it with my landscaping employees but I have no idea how to handle this in a professional, courteous, well thought out, intelligent manner. I wish I had an inkling of an idea of what the pay will be but I don't have the foggiest. My mom says I'm worth 'a lot' and I tend to believe her but she won't specify how much 'a lot' is. I imagine she's saying that so she isn't stuck in some dump of an old-folks-home but little does she know I've already picked it out regardless of my income. Anywhoo, I know that the salary is based on many things, especially responsibilities, of which I don't know the specifics for this job which sucks being in my position walking into a salary negotiation. So, any advice will be greatly appreciated on how to handle / what to say / etc for this meeting.

I have confidence that he is not out to screw me, his wife fine but not him. ooohhh, his wife, yummie. Anywhoo, I don't think he's going to low ball me but I want to have my ducks in a row as much as possible before walking in there.
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Re: OT: salary negotiation [Dave G] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
I have confidence that he is not out to screw me, his wife fine but not him. ooohhh, his wife, yummie.
You think she has a position for you too? I can hardly wait for future posts.
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Re: OT: salary negotiation [Dave G] [ In reply to ]
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Dave,

First congrats on landing a job withou really trying, there are many people out there right now that would kill to be in your shoes.

Ok, I have been working for a very large corporation for the past 12 years and have some experience with salary negotiation from both sides of the fence. Your first item of business is to do your home-work. Research the web for similar jobs, use salary.com, etc. to try to get an idea of what a job like yours is paying in the open market. Second, you need to have list of questions you need answered. Don't talk money until you have your answers. Tell him that you are confident that you will reach a mutually benefical arrangement but you need your questions answered. Once you get to the discussion about money; typically the first offer is the a company's low-ball offer. I do not mean that in a negative way it will be a fair offer but if they can get you for less they will try. At this point you need ask what is the breakdown in compensation (in other words how much salary and how much commission), you will have to be careful about when to bring this up. If you are the only candidate and you know this you are in the drivers seat, feel free to ask for some time to think about the offer. My experience says that most of the time you can negotiate somewhere between 10-20% more than the initial offer. If they are not interested in that or cannot bring the salary portion up ask them if they are willing to increase the commission side as they will only be paying for performance that way and have little risk. Realize that if you push to hard you will lose the offer and friend so be careful how you play this. Don't always assume they are out to screw you, if they are friends they are more likely to make a fair offer.

Also, go to Barnes & Noble or whatever bookstore is near you and buy a book on salary negotiation and read it before your next meeting.

Good Luck.
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Re: OT: salary negotiation [Dave G] [ In reply to ]
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determine what you "need" and what you "want," then I guess you would start at "want" and hopefully not end up negotiated down past "need."

Seriously, maybe ask for a job description and a few days to consider his offer. Do some research on the actual job and what the local labor market determines for pay for such a position. Most states publish labor market statistics on-line. However, sales jobs are really hard to determine due to the nature of the beast.
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Re: OT: salary negotiation [Dave G] [ In reply to ]
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You might get a monkey wrench thrown into things by there being a commission structure. (You said it was a sales position.)
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Re: OT: salary negotiation [Dave G] [ In reply to ]
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Great point by Monk. If it's sales, the commision structure may be more important than the salary.


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Re: OT: salary negotiation [Dave G] [ In reply to ]
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Monk – She is a little too Mrs. Robinson for me. I’ve did that when I was younger but she is maybe a tad too old. Oh yeah, and she’s married. Why is it that you always post the perverted comments? I dig it. You’re a wise perverted man about the commission. When I sold my landscape company it was a cash + commission deal. In the first 6 months they lost 60% of my largest accounts, within a year they lost almost 50% of the revenue I had the previous year. I won my arbitration suit and have been in court for 6months trying to collect. What a cluster fuck. I’d be surprised if I ever see any cash but I have a moral victory when I go to bed a night.



PH – I’m hoping it’s easier than what you’ve laid out but realistically thinking it’s probably not, after all, it’s business. During our initial discussion he said he is sick of training / working with people and having them effectively saying ‘fuck you’ in return. He’s seen how I handle myself time and time again in different situations and he likes that he can just set me free, relatively. I like the idea of increased commission as opposed to increased base pay but it’s something that needs a watchful eye and I’m not very good at accounting. As my step mom would say “it’s time you learn, damnit”.



JeffJ – I dig your approach the problem is that there are about 5 US companies that do this type of manufacturing so finding the comparable position and salary was impossible. I already tried, nothing out there at this time. I’ll try to do some more checking.



I know the basic salesman salary + commission in my head. Hopefully while meeting with him I can evaluate the demands of the job and figure a fair compensation.
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Re: OT: salary negotiation [Dave G] [ In reply to ]
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Here's advice coming from a guy that has screwed up negotiations 2 times before finalling learning to play hardball :

Here's my tips:
  • Go into the meeting very confident in your abilities to sell. Even if you don't voice it, it will show in your body language.
  • Conduct yourself like you are speaking to an equal rather than a boss - show respect, but act like you are bringing a lot to the table.
  • Play on your abilities to build up a company from scratch. Also emphasize that you sold your company at a profit - a timely sell to allow you to pursue other avenues.
  • Know your market. If other sales people in the market are making $65,000, why would you expect less?
  • Again, know your market - are competent sales people in short supply?
  • Push for commissions instead of a higher base salary - this shows that you have confidence in your abilities to sell.
  • Shoot high with your salary expectations. This I still have difficulty doing but I am told more and more from friends that are earning more than me to do this. If you would accept $50,000 and you would like $60,000 --> state $65,000 is the salary you looking at.


Hope this helps.

________________
Adrian in Vancouver
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Re: OT: salary negotiation [AJHull] [ In reply to ]
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Hey,

I don't post hegre very often, but I used to be in sales..and in HR..so I know a little about both sides of this fence.

A couple of things you NEED to ask.

-If he has any sales people currently, ask to see how their compensation plans worked. If he is a friend, you are more likely to see it. Some companies will let you choose a higher base for a lower percent of sales. This may work for you as you are "guaranteed" your money to live, but will you be able to switch to a lower base/higher percent once you ramp up.

-Will he be giving you any accounts to start off with? What is the purchase history of these accounts? If you are going to get good accounts, this could compensate for a lower base?

-I think someone else mentioned it, but is there an increase in commish percent over a certain amount. Most importantly....put everything you decide in WRITING.

Email me if you have any other questions.

Lee
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Re: OT: salary negotiation [Dave G] [ In reply to ]
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How badly you need the job is a huge factor in negotiating salary. You have far more leverage if you don't need it. I went through a similar situation 5 years ago. I had a great friend that got my foot in the door in a software company, despite me never making more than $12/hour and never doing any sort of software work. Here's how he coached me to execute - and in two meetings I went from making $400/week to $64k/year.

1. Get all the information about the job. Know exactly what you'll be doing on a daily basis, and for how long each day (is it an 8-5 gig or an 8-whatever time you get done gig?).
2. Learn what they call the position that does this job. Sometimes a job doesn't fit neatly into a box. That makes researching salaries based on job titles a little more difficult.
3. Ask how you will be evaluated, with what frequency, any by whom.
4. Learn precisely for what you will be held accountable. What does meeting expectations mean? What does exceeding expectations mean?
5. If he asks what you're making now, politely say "I'd rather not discuss that as it doesn't relate to the position we're discussing." I hate it when employers pull this shit. Sometimes they're just trying to feel you out, sometimes they're trying to get a good deal on someone simply because they can offer them a little more than they're currently making (in an unrelated industry) but far less than what their going rate would be.
6. End the interview. If he wants to discuss money, or if he offers to hire you, tell him that you're very interested in the job, but that you need to think about it and do some research.
7. Research the salary range in your area for the job he described. Identify the qualities you have that will make you excel at the job.
8. Meet again.
9. Ask his salary range for this position.
10. If his salary range matches the salary research you did, insert yourself somewhere in there based on your experience/anticipated success, but you need to be able to justify why you chose the figure you did. It's easy. If he wants to negotiate, stand firm in your facts and research. You didn't pull your number out of your ass. It was based on what other people with your experience are making in the industry. You can't negotiate facts. All that's left is for him to admit that his company pays less than industry average for the job. That's good to know, because you might as well go elsewhere and get paid more for the same job.

Ultimately, think about it as if the two of you are working together to find the right salary. Don't picture it, or have the attitude of, you versus him.
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Re: OT: salary negotiation [jhendric] [ In reply to ]
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excellent stuff here, thanks



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Striving to have sex more than 66 times per year
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Re: OT: salary negotiation [Dave G] [ In reply to ]
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Only one thing to add, if he is concerned about past experience with people leaving, you may be able to sweeten the deal by proposing a larger payoff to come after a set period of time. i.e. a much higher % or base salary in X years - maybe a stair stepping plan raising your base pay over several years. It may help to emphasize to him that you are in this for the long haul.
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Re: OT: salary negotiation [Dave G] [ In reply to ]
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How bad do you want or need the job? If you really want it or need it, do not play too hard to get, 'cuz you just may price yourself out. If you can afford to wait for another job, or are unsure if you really want this one--then you may want to play hardball. It's like buying a car though--do some research first to know what ballpark you're in.
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Re: OT: salary negotiation [Casey] [ In reply to ]
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If you do go to work for him, be sure not to post anything about his wife using a company computer;^)!!!
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Re: OT: salary negotiation [Dave G] [ In reply to ]
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"During our initial discussion he said he is sick of training / working with people and having them effectively saying ‘fuck you’ in return."

I think an important question to ask him, is why this keeps happening. I know getting and keeping good people is always hard to do, bla, bla, bla. But, I'm wondering if there is something wrong with the job/position/compensation/company, etc... that is making this happen. If he keeps having people effectively saying "fuck you" or whatever, then there is some issue here I think. Where there is smoke, there is fire Perhaps there is a reason he keeps losing people, and maybe you can find out why.
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Re: OT: salary negotiation [Dave G] [ In reply to ]
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So, to make sure I got the facts right...you have NO related experience for this position, but your friend is able to hire you and you want to know how to handle the salary negotiations.

You need to consider this as an entry level opportunity. It doesn't seem that you are bringing any real value to the company. You have no client base to bring with you, no expertise in the industry to bring with you, no real job experience to reflect on. What you have is your foot in the door because of your friend.

Yes, do your research. Know what other in the field are earning. And based on that negotiate the date for your next review. If, based on your research you no you are on the low end of the range, ask for a 6 month review instead of the typical 12 month review.

The bottom line is you need to prove your worth. Right now you have no more than anyone else on the street.

Grasp the opportunity and make the best of it. Gain experience, become valuable to the organization, bring something to the table. Then negotiate a well deserved raise.

The Cuban Comet
(Comets are unbelievably slow over Cuba)
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