How about Carbon vs Titanium vs Aluminum?

I recall reading a few articles here on slowtwitch (and one in Triathlete) a while back, but haven't been able to find them recently.

What type of differences in durability, stiffness, weight, and comfort?

Are any better suited for the different race distances or course types?

What would be the best all-around frame type? (if there is one)

Well, now, that's a little tricky.................
Why don't you post what you want out of a frame,
and then we all can argue about which one will work better for ya. Sound good?

Probably no simple answer. 'Feel' is so subjective and individual that a frame of any material can be made to feel like almost anything else. Someone here has pointed out before that 10-20 psi difference in the tires will make more difference to the compliance of the ride than any material choices.

Still, here are a few basic observations after having owned both Ti and carbon frames. For me the biggest advantage of Ti, especially for a recreational rider, is durability. A well-made Ti frame will really last. No rust, highly scratch/rust resistant, easy to clean, very tough if properly welded. I see 10 year old Merlins FS once in a while in pristine shape. You can keep swapping out components on the same frame almost indefinitely.

As for the ride, the only real generalization I'd make is that they tend not to buzz and vibrate the way some aluminum ones can.

A good Ti frame is very easy to get along with. I'm a set it and forget it kind of guy with way too many hobbies, so all that really appeals to me.

All else being equal, I'd always prefer a nicely built Ti frame for the durability issues, but it's never that simple :p.

Have fun deciding.

I think the difference between either is not as significant as the difference of fit and position form one bike to the next.

Before I evaluated a given bike model's frame material, I would first evaluate the fit relative to my body dimensions: If a carbon fiber brand/model fits you best, buy that. If you find a titanium frame that fits you best, buy that.

I'll argue fit is much more important than frame material.

To me, material is somewhat generic, although not entirely. They certainly do have their individual/unique attributes.

One generalization you can make about carbon fiber is you can't make generalizations about it. It is an engineered material frequently combined with other materials like Spectra, Kevlar, cermaics, etc.

Titanium, being a metal, is alloyed with other materials such as Vanadium and Aluminum and cold worked among other processes, but essentially can be changed only a small degree when compared to more "engineerable" synthetic composites including carbon fiber and advanced polymers combined with composites/carbon fiber.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Tom,

Regarding finding the best fit, is it safe to rely on a brand for good fit or should I be checking out the exact model that I am considering buying? Also, is it possible to provide measurements for fit assessment vs actually being fit in person? I ask because I don't know that I have access to any of the bikes that I am considering.

Newman.

Carbon is sexy and expensive

Titanium is sexy and very expensive

If you can somehow combine both of these in a frame it is positively multi-orgasmic.

Aside from that, Aluminium will do the job fine.

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Those who know do not speak, those who speak, do not know.

I have a LeMond Tete de Course -



It is by far the most comfortable bike i have ever ridden - part of that is the semi-sloping geometry and part of it is the ti-spine. I have had full ti, aluminum & full carbon in the past.

but... i made a mistake last weekend of riding a friend's Cannondale R2000 (ultegra bike) and as much as i like to blow smoke about how good DA-10 is, etc... i can honestly say that while the Tete might be 10% more comfortable and fun to ride then the Cannondale, it definately isn't twice as good (at twice the price).

However it is a very pretty bike - yes it's very pretty.

I'm not Tom, but I play him on TV.

Brands do have reputations for being long in some areas and short in others, and it often carries through from model to model. This may depend a bit, however, on your size. Geometries within a brand may change a bit through the size spectrum.

Also, while an actual fitting is ideal, there are many builders who will accept your measurements and help you work through what size is probably best. Craig Calfee at Calfee is one example. Ves at Yaqui is another (although I think his bikes are aluminum - VERY NICE aluminum). Of course, that speaks to size but not necessarily to fit. The big question is whether anyone will say to you "You know, you aren't really going to fit well on our stock bikes, maybe your should try XYZ bike company."

A call to Tom's shop (the real Tom, not the weak TV portrayal) might be a help. I have heard that he can talk this stuff through with people and help them find what they're looking for. Who knows, you might even end up buying a bike from him.

Disclaimer: I don't work for Tom, or for anything bike or tri related, but I like his style (with the possible exception of that whole "Titanic" fiasco).

Thanks for the feedback. I might just give Tom a call.

My search for a new ride will continue.

These are excellent questions.

Every "layer" that you are removed from the actual fit process in person degrades the integrity of the fit.

For instance: If you get meausrements done by a person who measures people specifically for triathlon bikes, does triathlons themselves, has experience in the events you are doing and has done them and rides the equipment you are considering buying, that may be a helpful resource.

-However, if that person is then relying on the manufacturer's published geometry charts only that is "one layer" removed from actual accuracy. Here's why: A given bike manufacturer's "53cm" frame size can measure anywhere from 56.5 centimeters total seat tube length to as little as 51.5 cm total seat tube length depending on the manufacturer's interpretation of the size and how they choose to depict it.

So- it is best if the person who is helping you build your "short list" of best bike fits has actually measured the bikes they sell and recommend as opposed to just relying on the manufacturer's published geometry specifications.

Additionally, measurements taken by one person and used by another for application on a third person's interpretation of a frame's dimensions add three layer s of inaccuracy, or three places where there can be a major screw up in translating dimensional data.

Ideally, a guy who has a lot of expereince fitting triathlete's measures you the way he has measured thousands of other triathletes. Then he has his own personal "data bank" of frame dimensions that he took from bikes that he measured in person, himself, according to his own standards.

This way there is very little chance for degradation of the fit data- it is pretty much "zero transfer" from body measurments to bike dimensions to fit and position.

I guess a simple way to put it is- too many cooks can spoil the pudding.

If one guy measures you, then another guy measures the bike you are considering, then a third guy interprets the data to determine if they are a match- man, that is a real clusterfuck.

I strongly subscribe to the school of thought that you should get a person you trust to fit, give them responsibility for the fit, and just do what they say.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

That looks like a sweet ride. I have Giant Carbon, which was an expensive experiment to prove that the problem with my performance is definitely not the bike. I will reward myself with some carbon/ti trickery when I can get up the hills a bit faster.

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Those who know do not speak, those who speak, do not know.

CASE IN POINT: Serotta Ottrott ST. Orgasmic to the Nth degree...

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Ti may have the durability waaaay over carbon, but carbon is the most tunable material. i think that carbon is best left custom, as it is infinitely tuneable. A dude like Nothstein can ride carbon- which proves that if built properly, it can be for nearly anyone.

What do I like better? Carbon, but it's because I know the material very, very well.

OK, thanks guys but I've still learned nothing about either on this thread! I'm not in the market for a new bike, but eventually I'd like to get an ultra-light bike that I can rip up and down hills on. I've heard titanium absolutely sucks if you truly ride mountains alot, and ride aggressively. I was told that descending on a titanium bike will not leave one with confidence like descending on a carbon, aluminum or steel bike. What materail bike do I get if I'm surpassing 50mph going down mountains every day?

I like steel, unless you can get some carbon laid up just for you.

Let me restate what I had answered- carbon can be infinitely tuned with relatively low weight penalty. On one handlebar I had built, I had used a structural foam core , ten layers of woven and fifty layers of unidirectional fabric and came up with a very stiff frame. A 250 lb guy could not even flex the thing. I also had built the same bar with about half of the material and a thin nomex core and it was perfect for a 120 lb woman. The bars only had about a 100 gram weight difference between them.

This is what I mean by truly tunable material. I am going to build an RC pan car chassis that is going to ELIMINATE the need for a stiffening tube for the steering blocks and have a VERY small weight penalty.

But, if you wannas do it simple- steel's the way to go.

FWIW, I have ridden Merlin standard and Merlin Extra Light frames, and Calfee Tetra Custom. Titanium or Carbon fiber are my preferred materials for their lightweight and road shock absortion qualities.

Regarding titanium durability, the Merlin Extralight recently suffered near-catastrophic failure. The diagonal downtube split all the way through and all the way around while simply riding. Fortunately, the bike stayed together by virtue of its joints, but was no longer rideable thereafter.

I find the Calfee to be much stiffer than either of the Merlins, which can become whippy when climbing out of the saddle. Prefer the Calfee for this reason.

Michael