"Has anyone done any open-water speed comparisons between the two piece wetsuits"

it's pretty hard to do open water speed comparisons. i've spent an awful lot of time in the open water in both 2pc and 1pc suits, and the difference is in stroke rate. both types of suits swim about equivalently over 200m. the difference is in the ability to keep one's stroke rate up after, say 500m or 1000m in a 2pc.

i'll be reviewing suits within the month on slowtwitch. i really like the look of the NEW ironman suits, the first non-sheico suits they've made in years. big difference. and i like the aquamans. and of course the T1 and tres. the rest of what's out there looks like the stuff that's been made for years. but i'll give it all a closer look next month.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

First off I just got to say to you Dan I appreciate this forum. Thanks for the great site. I have been real interested in reading about this T1 suit. My only concern is how quickly does it come off after pushing hard in a Olympic distance race or ironman distance swim. Also, with being on a budget how much slower is the Tres suit compared to the T1 and how does that come off. I see from DeSoto website that they use Yamamoto #38 material as opposed to the #39 for the T1. What is the difference? Also, I am also considering the Piel fullsuit what intrigied me the most about that suit is how quickly it comes off but I have gotten conflicting stories about these suits that they leak they are slow. Well to me all wetuits let water in. That is why they call them wetsuits. My main concern is the speed. I am not the best of swimmers and want to buy the best equipment that I can to better my times and is long-lasting. Any information anyone can share would be greatly appreciated. Thanks...



Craig from AL

BTW: Tom if you read this thread I truly enjoy all your editorials on your website. I hope all goes well with your book ideas. I look forward to coming up to your store in the near future.

Sorry all that I keep posting about my new Tres, I'm just really giddy about it...

I was also worried about how quickly one can remove these suits. Also, what would I do with my goggles while removing the top? Hold onto them, still wear them, what??

Well, the suit comes off VERY quickly. I leave my goggles on (under my swim cap) and rip the top off before I'm all the way out of the water. It pulls off just like a t-shirt. While running to the transition area I take off my cap and goggles then I get my arms through the bib top and fold it down just a bit. When I finally get to the rack I just pull each leg off such the suit rolls inside out. Presto, I'm done. The rubber is so stretchy that it's not hard at all to get over the ankles, and the skin of the suit has very little friction when rubbed against itself. Desoto has a video of a guy removing the suit at http://www.t1wetsuits.com/specs.html and they claim something like 6 seconds.

The suit is much easier to remove than my old QR.

"suit. My only concern is how quickly does it come off after pushing hard in a Olympic distance race"

i have no trouble getting it off. it's as quick as a 1pc. but others have a bit more of a struggle, and i'd say it's a valid question for older women (45+) and even older men (60+). i'm 46 and it's a snap to get off.

i hate to speak ill of anyone's product, but i've never gotten the idea of a piel. wetsuits take 4 - 8 seconds to get off. zippers are water permeable, and they don't stretch. so, why buy a wetsuit that's going to be less flexible and less water resistant (which probably means a slower swim) over a 30 or 60 minute effort just so you can get out of it in 3 seconds instead of 6 seconds?

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Oh you want to know how fast it comes off....? Read my review on Friday at my website for the hilarity of my real, no B.S. high-speed wetsuit removal contest complete with stopwatches, cameras and a cheering (jeering) crowd. I really tested it. Dry/wet,running, the whole thing. The results will astound you. Truth is stranger than fiction. And for the record, I wasn't too into those Piel suits either. I do LOVE my T1. It rules.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

I have heard that the T1 is not quite as bouyant as some of the other suits and as such is not suited for the weak swimmer like me. I typically swim 1:40 for 100 do you think the T1 would be a good thing? I am doing mostly sprints and 2 1/2 IM's this year. Thanks

Here's the deal, and I'm giving away some of my review... You are right- there are places on the suit, especially the chest, where you don't have the degree of floatation you would with a traditional, old-school one piece suit. And that is part of the way it works: The floatation is where you (ESPECIALLY new swimmers...) need it- in your legs. The design of the suit "corrects" your waterline or posture in the water, making you swim more "downhill" (as advocated by Total Immersion and Terry Laughlin) and forcing you to "press the buoy". I'll tell you, I'm a crappy swimmer and it DOES wortk for me. It is (IMHO) better than a one piece. Cheaper too. Better, Cheaper, Faster. I'm stoked. A tough combination to beat.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

we used 2 pieces in the miltary . they always worked great and getting out of them was easy. they seemed to last longer. can't prove that but we where scrapping more single pieces that doulbles.

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customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

As I've always noted...

Speed of removal is a relative concept. Ease of removal is not always relative to speed.

Simply put, the T1 is not as easy to remove as the Piel. The Piel is not a comfortable as the T1. When either are compared to traditional single zipper wetsuits, both the T1 and the Piel have equal or better speed or ease of removal considerations.

In general, speed of removal is determined by experience. The more experience you have removing a properly fitting wetsuit... the faster the removal time will be. The "removal" learning curve for the T1 is significantly higher than the Piel. Therefore, the experience required to learn the removal of the Piel is nill, zero...nothing.

The Piel has advantages and disadvantages when compared to the T1. However, neither can claim to be THE wetsuit (IMHO). But, each can claim to have advantages over the other... whether they are true advantages is defined by it's use. And, that can only be determined by the user.

Finally, If the cost of the new Desoto design is to be $1000. Then, it would seem it would have to be primarily material changes and less design changes. Which is unfortunate, (assuming I'm correct) since the only weak spot I see about the T1 is it lack of ease of removal (when compared to the Piel).

As for the Piel zippers, it's stiffness is a negative. That's why I don't believe it's fit is a good as the T1. As for it's leakage and it's effect on swim speed, it's not (and has not) been an issue for me. At least no more of an issue than a single zipper design.

As you noted, slower swim time of Piel (because of stiffness) vs. slower removal time/more difficult removal of T1 is a trade off. As for myself, I prefer the Piel for Sprint distances... and the T1 for Longer course tris. (IMHO), that is the perfect combination.

FWIW Joe Moya

Dan,

You said: "And for the record, I wasn't too into those Piel suits either."

So, how can you your review to be considered non-biased?

I too had my had my problems with the Piel concept at first. At least until I started using it for my sprint distant tris. That doubt went away pretty fast when I kept passing the T1 wetsuit's and traditionally designed wetsuits upon exiting the water. Of course, they would just passed me later on during the bike...

For me, it's a love triangle.... I love my T1 AND my Piel.

FWIW Joe Moya

"So, how can you your review to be considered non-biased?"

dan can be non-biased?

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customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

The Piel takes ZERO seconds to take off because you can remove it WHILE running at more or less full speed through transition. And there is no exaggeration there. In terms of added water resistance, wouldn't it be even worse then for a suit like an Ironman, with the panel they have in the back? And personally, I think the fact that a Piel isn't as flexible laterally is not that big of a problem. In fact, it would probably help A LOT of triathletes with their swimming - you know the ones who kind of wiggle or fishtail when they swim? For some reason there are tons of triathletes who swim that way. Al that being said, I ditched my Piel for a Orca Predator 2 last season, but mosty because I had an older Piel that was pretty much of uniform thickness. The Predator had more thinner, more flexible arms (not neccessarily shoulders), which I preferred. plus I got mine for under $270.

Yesterday (April 9) De Soto added some more info about the new wetsuit on their site:

April 9, 2003

There have been a lot of people asking if they should buy a T1 now, or wait until this next evolution wetsuit concept is available because they are afraid of buying a T1 now and it becoming obselete.

Do not delay in buying a T1, and do not worry, no current T1 will become obsolete. The concept we are working on will not replace the T1 Original or the T1 Tres.

Without disclosing more than I really should, this new wetsuit concept will not be available until at least early August (though this may change), it will only be available by special order directly from us this year, and if we were to introduce it right now, it would cost at about $1200.00 for the complete suit. More to come!

"I have heard that the T1 is not quite as bouyant as some of the other suits and as such is not suited for the weak swimmer like me."

i believe you "heard" this from ironman wetsuits, esp back when keith simmons was with ironman wetsuits. this was (in my view) a rather transparent tactic to try to minimize the negative impact of T1 on sales of his brand. the T1 is just as buoyant as a 1pc, and more so when you consider WHERE it is buoyant.

as far as i know, keith's current wetsuit, the XTERRA, is still made of sheico's rubber in sheico's finished goods factory. the irony here is that, to the best of my knowledge, sheico's rubber used over the last several years in these suits have a higher specific gravity than the #39 rubber used in the T1 and in ironman's new 2003 stealth suit (and in the best suits of aquaman, QR, etc.).

this brings up an issue broached earlier, the difference between the T1 and the tres. the rubber in the tres is not going to be quite a soft and buoyant as the T1. but most people will have a hard time noticing the difference, which is slight.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

"So, how can you your review to be considered non-biased? "

my reviews are all biased. when i'm done with the review, i'll have a bias, which will be expressed in the review. if i say, "this [product] sucks," that's a clue that i'm biased against it. when i say, "it works well," then i've come away with a positive bias.

but you're probably referring to the fact that i am biased against a certain style of design even before trying a product, which clouds my view of a particular product. yes, that's true too. the piel style of wetsuit design has been around at least a dozen years, and companies like wavelength (since gone from triathlon?) and piel are not knew. but zippers didn't get stretchier over the last dozen years, and they are still equally water permeable. hence my prior view of the technology is still with me.

but there are good reasons to buy a piel, just as there are good reasons to buy any company's no-arms wetsuit -- because you like the features. this, even though both styles of suits might be slower than a T1, a QR supersuit, an orca predator, aquaman pulsar, etc.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Is Keith Simmons the guy who basically screwed over Ironman wetsuits (who he was working for at the time) by allegedly sabotaging their relationship with their dealers by pushing Xterra wetsuits (which he was also involved with)? I have heard there are lawsuits pending...

"Is Keith Simmons the guy who basically screwed over..."

keith simmons was the U.S. distributor for ironman wesuits for several years. he is more responsible than anyone for bringing ironman up to the point of its current U.S. distribution levels, which are quite high.

his view: he felt he wanted a piece of the license for his own security, and this ought (he thought) to be a reasonable request inasmuch as the U.S. is the largest triathlon wetsuit market by far in any country worldwide.

the ironman licensee's view: no. keith was a distributor, one of many worldwide, and was no more due a piece of the license than any of the other distributors.

as a result of this impasse, keith went and got his own license, which he got from XTERRA, and the ironman licensee fired him from being the ironman distributor in the U.s. where this all falls out depends on whom you talk to, and i've spoken extensively to both parties, well, to ALL parties if you also consider ironman, who grants the license.

sometimes there is a fine line between business that is rough and business that is dirty. i can see all points of view. i don't know about legal action, and wouldn't comment on it if i did. i'm just glad i'm not in the wetsuit manufacturing business anymore (except for a bit of consulting here and there).

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

ANYWAY........ I was talking about how nice T1 wetsuits are and I believe it was Joe M. who made the sagacious comparison between Piel and T1, and that he owns both. To that excellent contribution to this discussion I will inquire: For which PRIMARY purpose does a person use a wetsuit? To swim or to remove? Now, there is no minimizing the importance of speed in removing a triathlon wetsuit. And I do conceed that learning to remove a T1 wetsuit correctly is paramount to maximizing its performance potential. BUT, as exhibit "A" I offer Emilio's little Quicktime video on his website which, in one viewing, instructed me in the proper technique. I still want people to read my review tomorrow (I'm shootng some final photos for it tonight) but my findings were that, even when pumped up from a hard swim I could (personally) remove the T1 FASTER than a regular suit. Wanna know how? Read my review tomorrow morning. As for the $1200 Super-mega De Soto suit coming this August. Sign me up, I take a 4. But in the mean time I'm keeping my silver T1 for IM Wisconsin and any other events I find the time to race in this year. Best wetsuit I've tried. And I've tried a lot.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Just curious Tom, what sort of IM (or other distance) swim time do you go? This is not meant in a sarcastic tone, as I honestly do value your reviews as they do seem thorough.

Tom you bring up an interesting point: to swim or to remove. There is one group where removing is almost as important, the ITU guys where every second counts. I hear that Aquaman have made a suit with the quick remove feature just for the really fast ITU guys and girls, I think Larsen had it on at IMNZ, of course being an MOP I never got to see him in it.

BTW I have a T1, raced two IM in it cant be happier. I am not being funny, but I bought the suit based on how it fit me, seriously, I tried IM Stealth, Orca, QR, Exterra and T1 (got to swim in most of them in Lake Penticton) before making my choice. At the time (& CND exchange rate) the T1 was very expensive, but it fit me the best of the lot. I also did a mini timed swim on each and T1 was the fasters of the lot (maybe to do with the fact that I could move freely v the others).Now if I lose more weight I might need a new top, that does not amuse me or the wife as the P2 cost enough as it is!

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Simple Simon
Where's the Fried Chicken??

That is an excellent question. As a swimmer I am a fine cyclist. I really suck in the water and I don't enjoy swimming much. You can look me up at Ironman Canada '97 and '99 (and for that matter, Kona '1986, as in, 17 years ago- that's how long I've been doing this, actually 20 now!) and I think my swim splits were around 1:10:00. Anytime I got out of the water under 1:10:00 (Canada '99?) I was pretty stoked. I think one thiing De Soto missed on his website was how much the T1 benefits the AVERAGE or beginning swimmer. It really does help "correct" your swimming posture. In addition to bouyancy, streamlining and insulation this suit is specifically designed to provide flotation where you need it to assist your posture in the water. Everyone can benefit from this, but good swimmers are good swimmers becasue they have good posture to begin with. for us MOPers, this suit offers a tangible benefit over other suits: Better swim posture.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Are there any differences in how the T1 "adjusts" someone's position in the water versus a Predator 2 or other wetsuits that has various thickness in the suit? Also, I am curious to see your article tomorrow to see how it's possible to remove it faster than a 2 piece, when once you have the top off of either (which you can remove off of both while running) they would appear to be exactly the same.

Dan: is it possible to swim with just the bibs? I was talking to a guy who wore a T1 with the vest top (which he says is very difficult to get off, he says the long sleeve top is no problem though) on his way to a sub 50 IM swim and he is of the opinion that he might prefer to wear just the bibs during a race. Just wondering if that would work? I would think they might fill up with water a bit...

the suit was not designed to be used bottom only, but in fact it was a happy surprise that you can do it, and it doens't fill up with water. if i had to omit the top and swim in sleeveless only, for reasons of warm weather, for example, i'd almost certainly choose the bibjohn over a standard sleeveless wetsuit.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman