Sorry you are dropping out...I think it has been a good thread, but agreed that maybe it is worn out now.

If you will read through the threads, I don't think, obviously my perspective, that "religious" folks have been "arguing religion" or "Bible thumping;" rather, some of us who actually are not "thumpers" at all, but just regular ole believers, saw a place to share some opinions and views as the thread made its twists and turns through various issues.

Heck, I like cyber discussing things with you even though we see many things, other than bike fit, differently. I think that the ability to do that is and should be mutually beneificial, and that is one of the purposes of any forum. Of course, the folks on this forum, for the most part, are able to have these "discussions" without them turning into arguments or thumping. I think Dan has done a good job developing and promoting that culture, and has done it with you a number of times.

Again, I appreciate your thoughts. I'll save the agnostic discussion for later.

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David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

I dated this girl who had a little inspirational sign in her bathroom that said something like "Integrity is the only right path to follow..." She made all kinds of promises (I'll love you forever, I love you more than even my ex-husband, I'll never leave you, we'll be married some day...) She broke all her promises and left me after betraying a number of important trusts, including revelaing inappropriate aspects of our personal relationship to my own mother. Clearly, this was a person void of integrity. My point: Within ALL relationships (not just girlfriend/boyfriend)it seems as if we are in need of a moral/ethical "compass" or directorate. Why is it OK for the U.S. to invade Iraq without international support but it isn't OK for Iraq to invade Kuwait without international support? There seems to be little moral underpinning for our behaviors. Until we're all on the same set of rules/standards there will be break-ups, divorce, war, bad business deals. In other words, welcome to the human race. I wish it weren't like this. I wish my girlfriend had honored her promises because I loved her. I wasn't perfect either. The whole relationship expereince has been disappointing to me in the last three years. I wish I could say it was different. Maybe that's why riding a bike, running and even swimming (yuk) are so fun.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

"song of solomon is a poem, and like the psalms, are not generally considered by biblical scholars the place to draw doctrine."

What a pile of crap, Slowman. Sure, the song of solomon doesn't say do this or don't do that. It is a rich example of how it ought to be and how it can be. It even contains an argument between solomon and his wife and how they make up. If a Christian can't draw doctrinal guidance from that then he needs some calibration.

I'm not so sure God overlooked David's treatment of Bathsheba or Uriah. David was repentent and forgiven but also obviously guilt ridden for the rest of his life. Everytime he looked at Bathsheba (who became his wife) he'd have been reminded. You want it bad, you'll get it bad.

Forgive me if I misinterpret, but you seem to imply that some of the biblical stories and principles are culturally outdated. We don't have slavery these days but you can certainly apply everything Paul wrote about slaves to employees or colleagues whom you manage.

Dust off that old bible, Slowman. You've read all these verses before and they still read just the same. However, I'll warrant that a few may resonate differently with you now than they did "20 or 30 years" ago. I find that passages that were once only interesting or said something obvious may have some new applicability to whatever I may be going through now.

Exegetic authors, or even inspirational authors are great to read for assistance with an awkward translation, background information about cultures, cross references and plain old spirit rousing. But everyone of those authors whom I'd deem worthy of my time would tell you in an instant that the choice between reading their book and the bible is a no brainer. Why read commentary, allegory, or human experience when its already in there?

Okay, now you want me to drop the exegetic discussion and be transparent. Make up your mind, it was your invitation to dig deeper into the Bible. Transparency and human experience is all well and good. But, it would be useless to try to capture it in this sort of forum. My 13.5 year marriage has been on ongoing process of discovery and adaptation. It starts with not allowing the little things build into bigger things. But, if something does turn into a big hairy monster then we deal with it the best we can.

Here is a bit of transparency for you, self-indulgent though it may read. My wife is not a triathlete, nor is she particularly active. She has a love for tennis and some talent, too, but not a whole lot of drive to use them. She thinks, rightly, that I'm obsessed with bicycles, sneakers, wetsuits and all things associated with triathlon. She knows that I'm a rude, insensitive moron yet she adores me. I think she needs to acquire some drive and go out and crush those pretentious, V neck sweatered, painted posers at the local tennis club with her killer back-hand. I think she should do it to lose some weight and to preserve the sanity that a 3 & 5 year old can erode like a mud slide. She's also got a few characteristics that annoy me. I love her dearly; she's my "best good friend".

If she wants to chide or recalibrate me when I'm being selfish she says to me, "It's all about you, isn't it?", with a big grin on her face. I have a laugh but I get the point. She not only wants me to stop be selfish because it hurts her, she want to help me be a better man and husband. It doesn't always go that smoothly and sometimes we argue quite vehemently. But, we always come through it with a better understanding of one another.

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_________________
stacy hills
reston, va

Tom, you ought to introduce your ex to Gary in SD. They both seem to want to buy into a good thing but when it doesn't turn out to their exact specifications, they trash it unmercifully.

Bob Sigerson

Married to first and last wife - 7/13/63

Thank you sig. I envy your marriage in a charitable, complimentary way.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Dude, the first woman whom I dated post-divorce was like that. She did not have a sign that said about integrity, but she did many of the things that your ex did. She put me up on a high pedastal, then when she felt like she had me where she wanted me, she then tore my heart out of my chest with her bare hands. There are aspects of what that woman did to me that are with me to this day, and that was seven years ago and I am happily married now.

I did figure out one thing- if sex would not have been so good with this woman, I probably would not have taken it as hard as I did. It would not have been as deep, either. I also figured out that her sexual prowess is the only thing she has, and that is what she preys on her victims with. She had nothing else. She is the reason for the black widow spider tatoo on my spine.

Your ex was probably trying to convince herself that she had integrity. This is why she had her little sign up. I always watch out for people like that. One should keep all of their inspirations inside themselves- if you need to change, you must undertake from within, not have little signs in your bathroom. Integrity is a quality that one must maintain without telling the world about it. If you must tell the world about it, then you must have a serious lack of it.

Remember this- the only problem with relationships is that there's another person involved.

You won't ever completely get over her, but that is not entirely bad news, as you will know how to treat a good woman right and not piss it away when she's right and you're in the right frame of mind and heart. You should just have lots of meaningless romances for awhile, Tom.

Thanks bunnyman.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com