worried about my running..

Mar 24, 19 22:31

Post #1 of 19 (3227 views)

My A race (70.3) is coming up in 8 weeks and my running is floundering. A bit of background, I've just been doing my own training the last few years, mostly swimming and running (50 - 60 mpw), riding only once and that would generally be same weekly mileage as my run (60 mpw). So obviously the balance wasn't quite right, my swim usually went OK 26/27, bike low - mid 2.20s and run mid 1.30s. I always felt I was underachieving on the run, most likely due to lack of bike fitness and/or overbiking, also running too hard of the bike. I've been getting hassled by plenty of friends to get a coach and a program, so I've done that, got a highly reputable coach, she's very professional and dedicated.

My swimming and especially my biking is going really well, I've almost tripled my bike volume and am keeping up with much quicker cyclists, run volume has almost halved, however and with it my run fitness. It's like I haven't run in 6 months. I did some 1 mile intervals last week and could barely hold my HM pace (6.50) for them. Pace was supposed to be 6.00. So way off. So I'll swim and ride quicker, but run much slower and probably end up with a similar time as last year lol but with less money. The only bit of hope I've got is that I'm tired a lot of the time and this could be affecting my running. Also it's been really hot (clutching at straws). Come race day, on fresh legs, perhaps it will all come together. But really I can't see it. I feel like I'm close to sprinting and I'm only running 10km pace, I keep on thinking my GPS watch is broken....

Re: worried about my running.. [Gashman] [ In reply to ]

Mar 25, 19 1:52

Post #2 of 19 (3123 views)

My opinion is that you didn't need a revolution in your training, but just some adjustment, like swapping one run for one 90' ride with 25 miles @ 70.3 race pace inside. That would possibly allow for sub 4.20, that means age group podium in most races

Re: worried about my running.. [Gashman] [ In reply to ]

Mar 25, 19 2:51

Post #3 of 19 (3063 views)

Gashman wrote:

..... so I've done that, got a highly reputable coach, she's very professional and dedicated. ....

So what does your coach say when you talk to her about it?

Re: worried about my running.. [Gashman] [ In reply to ]

Mar 25, 19 3:06

Post #4 of 19 (3034 views)

Your times don't suggest your run is weak on race day, so don't worry about that side of things.
Lots of 'good runners' seem to be quite vocal about their run speeds but it really isn't normal to run sub 1.30 in a half.

WRT your more recent problem, you might find it is not just lack of run volume but also the significant increase in cycle volume that is contributing to your run form.
So it may come together with a good taper.
Are you keeping speed work up?

Good luck

Re: worried about my running.. [Gashman] [ In reply to ]

Mar 25, 19 4:00

Post #5 of 19 (2938 views)

If your coach is highly reputable then I assume you've asked her this question as well, what did she say?

Personally I find that running fast always feels hard when in the middle of a big training block, and it's not necessarily a reflection of how things will pan out on race day. Taper makes a bigger difference to my run than either of the other 2 disciplines.

Re: worried about my running.. [Gashman] [ In reply to ]

Mar 25, 19 6:23

Post #6 of 19 (2751 views)

Gashman wrote:

My A race (70.3) is coming up in 8 weeks and my running is floundering. A bit of background, I've just been doing my own training the last few years, mostly swimming and running (50 - 60 mpw), riding only once and that would generally be same weekly mileage as my run (60 mpw). So obviously the balance wasn't quite right, my swim usually went OK 26/27, bike low - mid 2.20s and run mid 1.30s. I always felt I was underachieving on the run, most likely due to lack of bike fitness and/or overbiking, also running too hard of the bike. I've been getting hassled by plenty of friends to get a coach and a program, so I've done that, got a highly reputable coach, she's very professional and dedicated.

My swimming and especially my biking is going really well, I've almost tripled my bike volume and am keeping up with much quicker cyclists, run volume has almost halved, however and with it my run fitness. It's like I haven't run in 6 months. I did some 1 mile intervals last week and could barely hold my HM pace (6.50) for them. Pace was supposed to be 6.00. So way off. So I'll swim and ride quicker, but run much slower and probably end up with a similar time as last year lol but with less money. The only bit of hope I've got is that I'm tired a lot of the time and this could be affecting my running. Also it's been really hot (clutching at straws). Come race day, on fresh legs, perhaps it will all come together. But really I can't see it. I feel like I'm close to sprinting and I'm only running 10km pace, I keep on thinking my GPS watch is broken....

"My running is floundering" with a 6:50 pace. Come on dude. Most people who kill to run that fast.

Re: worried about my running.. [Gashman] [ In reply to ]

Mar 25, 19 7:02

Post #7 of 19 (2694 views)

1. talk to your paid coach about your issues
2. shit's gonna give when you focus on other stuff, that's life.

that being said, you're not running "as well" because, surprise, you're tired. from other stuff.

Re: worried about my running.. [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]

Mar 25, 19 7:42

Post #8 of 19 (2593 views)

Quote:

that being said, you're not running "as well" because, surprise, you're tired. from other stuff.

Yep, was going to say this. Shed some of that fatigue and the run will improve.

OP never said their age, but for 60mpw, running in the 1:30's was underachieving. New coach-- who OP is $$PAYING$$ --seems to have him focused on fixing the bike fitness issue.

Re: worried about my running.. [satanellus] [ In reply to ]

Mar 25, 19 17:02

Post #9 of 19 (2391 views)

satanellus wrote:

Gashman wrote:

..... so I've done that, got a highly reputable coach, she's very professional and dedicated. ....

So what does your coach say when you talk to her about it?

She's not overly concerned. Perhaps she's seen this with other athletes. She knows her shit and has coached lots of people to Kona. I wouldn't be so concerned if I was a bit slower, but when your 800m interval pace is close to your 10km pace it's a bit of a worry. That said when i was doing my own training I was overly generous with my rest/recover when doing intervals e.g 1min static rest with 400s whereas she has 40s jog recovery between 800s. Same with swimming, I did 5 x 300m main set @ threshold yesterday with 15s recovery. I used to do 200s with 30s recovery.

Re: worried about my running.. [Gashman] [ In reply to ]

Mar 26, 19 1:37

Post #10 of 19 (2163 views)

Gashman wrote:

satanellus wrote:

Gashman wrote:

..... so I've done that, got a highly reputable coach, she's very professional and dedicated. ....

So what does your coach say when you talk to her about it?

She's not overly concerned. Perhaps she's seen this with other athletes. She knows her shit and has coached lots of people to Kona. I wouldn't be so concerned if I was a bit slower, but when your 800m interval pace is close to your 10km pace it's a bit of a worry. That said when i was doing my own training I was overly generous with my rest/recover when doing intervals e.g 1min static rest with 400s whereas she has 40s jog recovery between 800s. Same with swimming, I did 5 x 300m main set @ threshold yesterday with 15s recovery. I used to do 200s with 30s recovery.

So she didn't explain why she wasn't overly concerned and the objectives and likely outcomes of the current phase of your program? And you didn't ask if she'd seen similar with other athletes she has trained?

There's a difference between asking your coach or talking with your coach as I suggested. From what we're reading, it sounds like communication may be an issue, likewise trusting the coach and her program. There definitely sounds like a lack of reassurance from what you write, otherwise you wouldn't be asking us the questions.

Post deleted by Administrator [ In reply to ]

runner66

Mar 26, 19 5:36

Post #11 of 19 (2049 views)

Re: worried about my running.. [Gashman] [ In reply to ]

Mar 26, 19 11:51

Post #12 of 19 (1960 views)

You tripled your bike volume so your run is going to suffer some. How about you question your new coach after a few races?

Re: worried about my running.. [runner66] [ In reply to ]

Mar 26, 19 15:39

Post #13 of 19 (1850 views)

runner66 wrote:

You beat me to it. I was going to say the same thing. There are very few people who can run sub 1:30 in a HIM. It is rare, and even more unusual in a hilly race. Unless the OP is under the age of 30, his run is already very strong. He needs more bike volume, which he has done. With a taper his run should be solid on race day.

No i would normally run around 1.30 for a HM not HIM. HIM run times, 1.35 - 1.38, generally on flat courses.

Re: worried about my running.. [Gashman] [ In reply to ]

Mar 26, 19 16:16

Post #14 of 19 (1808 views)

Something here doesn't add up in regards to your 1 mile intervals. I just don't believe that 6 months ago you were running the engine at the same effort and running 50 seconds difference over 1 mile. At first glance, I would toss a label on you from a psychological perspective, that label is not kind sounding but it is a "running head case". I know it doesn't sound nice but believe me I mean well. My guess, is you will be quite surprised with your 70.3 race and run, if you relax and execute your race according to your coach. You may not run any faster, but to run the same on 50% less volume with a faster bike will be huge. Relax and trust the process. If in another 6 months the results don't yield your expectations then look another direction but it is way too soon right now to question the process. For now I would attribute the run difference to dead legs that are adapting to more bike volume. That will improve as you rest and adapt.

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Re: worried about my running.. [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]

Mar 26, 19 17:52

Post #15 of 19 (1744 views)

Thomas Gerlach wrote:

Something here doesn't add up in regards to your 1 mile intervals. I just don't believe that 6 months ago you were running the engine at the same effort and running 50 seconds difference over 1 mile. .

I don't really know what my run ability is at the moment to be honest. I would imagine if I did 1 mile intervals on fresh legs I'd be able to get close to 6.20 pace, maybe, but definitely not 6.00 pace. My run volume has literally halved though. And my training is very different to what it was 6 months ago. Most of my runs are done on tired legs in the heat and her interval sessions have little rest, whereas when doing my own thing I would be overly generous. I'd be very happy if I got a similar run time, even slower, just don't want to flog myself in this training program and end up with a worse time than when I did what I wanted i.e I'd wake up and decide to do what training I felt like lol. Goal time is low 4.30s, should swim 27, bike 2.22, 3mins t1/t2 meaning I'd only have to run a 1.40, although 1.40 is not looking as easy as it should at the moment.

I have a race sim this saturday, 2.5 hours race pace, 60min run at 7.15 pace. Should give me a good idea of where I'm at. I won't be able to do 7.15 pace, but if I can get close I'll be happy.

Re: worried about my running.. [Gashman] [ In reply to ]

Mar 26, 19 20:06

Post #16 of 19 (1658 views)

You probably won't be able to know what your running ability is until you have a large chunk of time to devote specifically to running and running races. Standalone half-marathons. That's probably the way to get your "baseline" and estimate what you should aim for in 70.3. Telling what you can do for mile intervals is not the way to judge your run fitness or potential. Telling us what you can run in a standalone half marathon certainly is.

Your run is solid in the 1:30s but not on par with the other two performances. I don't know if that means you are "underachieving" and I don't think you can either until you can find out your potential in a standalone half.

Certainly your swim is your best event. 26/27 is pointy end of the stick. But your bike is great. You didn't mention what sort of terrain you did that bike on so it's hard to tell but if there even moderate hills, 2:2x is strong. In my experience, it is very rare that someone who can swim that well and bike that well can also run fast.

Re: worried about my running.. [JoeO] [ In reply to ]

Mar 26, 19 20:23

Post #17 of 19 (1640 views)

JoeO wrote:

You probably won't be able to know what your running ability is until you have a large chunk of time to devote specifically to running and running races. Standalone half-marathons. That's probably the way to get your "baseline" and estimate what you should aim for in 70.3. Telling what you can do for mile intervals is not the way to judge your run fitness or potential. Telling us what you can run in a standalone half marathon certainly is.

Your run is solid in the 1:30s but not on par with the other two performances. I don't know if that means you are "underachieving" and I don't think you can either until you can find out your potential in a standalone half.

Certainly your swim is your best event. 26/27 is pointy end of the stick. But your bike is great. You didn't mention what sort of terrain you did that bike on so it's hard to tell but if there even moderate hills, 2:2x is strong. In my experience, it is very rare that someone who can swim that well and bike that well can also run fast.

Bike is flat and fast. It's not a tough course, but I've always been strong on the bike even with little mileage or you could argue that I overbike? And yeah not many guys that are reasonably solid across all 3 disciplines. maybe 3 or 4 of us in the top 20. Top 10 has a couple of elite swimmers, 1 elite runner and 2 elite cyclists (Olympic level), but all of them are weak in at least 1 other discipline. So although I'm not a gun in any of the disciplines I can hopefully go OK by being strongish in all 3. It would be great if I could go OK on the low run mileage I'm doing, it just doesn't sound logical though and there's not much in my training to suggest that it is going OK. I did do an interval set yesterday (an easy set) 6 x 3min @ 6.50 pace, 2min recovery and made those times easily. But lots of recovery.

Re: worried about my running.. [Gashman] [ In reply to ]

Mar 26, 19 23:28

Post #18 of 19 (1587 views)

Gashman wrote:

Thomas Gerlach wrote:

Something here doesn't add up in regards to your 1 mile intervals. I just don't believe that 6 months ago you were running the engine at the same effort and running 50 seconds difference over 1 mile. .

I don't really know what my run ability is at the moment to be honest. I would imagine if I did 1 mile intervals on fresh legs I'd be able to get close to 6.20 pace, maybe, but definitely not 6.00 pace. My run volume has literally halved though. And my training is very different to what it was 6 months ago. Most of my runs are done on tired legs in the heat and her interval sessions have little rest, whereas when doing my own thing I would be overly generous. I'd be very happy if I got a similar run time, even slower, just don't want to flog myself in this training program and end up with a worse time than when I did what I wanted i.e I'd wake up and decide to do what training I felt like lol. Goal time is low 4.30s, should swim 27, bike 2.22, 3mins t1/t2 meaning I'd only have to run a 1.40, although 1.40 is not looking as easy as it should at the moment.

I have a race sim this saturday, 2.5 hours race pace, 60min run at 7.15 pace. Should give me a good idea of where I'm at. I won't be able to do 7.15 pace, but if I can get close I'll be happy.

The runs are not the same then. FWIW, one of the biggest mistakes I see people make is they run far too early in the morning and far too late in the afternoon (assuming 70.3). The reality is that running in heat and radiant energy makes a big difference. People get far too concerned with pace and not feel in races. It can be perfectly realistic for a run in the morning to be 20-30 seconds faster per mile for the same HR as a run midday.

The amount of rest makes a huge difference too when doing repeats. Regardless, I would encourage you to relax, and don't worry about the race sim too much. People who over perform in training relative to their fitness tend to under perform on race day IME.

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Re: worried about my running.. [Gashman] [ In reply to ]

Mar 27, 19 14:25

Post #19 of 19 (1440 views)

Gashman wrote:

JoeO wrote:

You probably won't be able to know what your running ability is until you have a large chunk of time to devote specifically to running and running races. Standalone half-marathons. That's probably the way to get your "baseline" and estimate what you should aim for in 70.3. Telling what you can do for mile intervals is not the way to judge your run fitness or potential. Telling us what you can run in a standalone half marathon certainly is.

Your run is solid in the 1:30s but not on par with the other two performances. I don't know if that means you are "underachieving" and I don't think you can either until you can find out your potential in a standalone half.

Certainly your swim is your best event. 26/27 is pointy end of the stick. But your bike is great. You didn't mention what sort of terrain you did that bike on so it's hard to tell but if there even moderate hills, 2:2x is strong. In my experience, it is very rare that someone who can swim that well and bike that well can also run fast.

Bike is flat and fast. It's not a tough course, but I've always been strong on the bike even with little mileage or you could argue that I overbike? And yeah not many guys that are reasonably solid across all 3 disciplines. maybe 3 or 4 of us in the top 20. Top 10 has a couple of elite swimmers, 1 elite runner and 2 elite cyclists (Olympic level), but all of them are weak in at least 1 other discipline. So although I'm not a gun in any of the disciplines I can hopefully go OK by being strongish in all 3. It would be great if I could go OK on the low run mileage I'm doing, it just doesn't sound logical though and there's not much in my training to suggest that it is going OK. I did do an interval set yesterday (an easy set) 6 x 3min @ 6.50 pace, 2min recovery and made those times easily. But lots of recovery.

From the numbers, it sure sounds to me like you should aim to work on the low-hanging fruit and the fruit, for you, is the run. I really think you need to trim that bike and swim back a bit and focus more on running. Whatever you might lose from reasonable drop in swim/bike mileage, I have to think you'll get more back in run fitness.

If it's a point of comparison, you would always smoke me in the swim and on the bike but running, even now in my 50s, I can still manage a half marathon fast that we would likely finish within a minute of each other, if I'm doing my math right. The thing that's kept my my run solid isn't interval work. I don't have nearly the speed I used to. But I do have the endurance because I focus on easy volume and frequency. Until you start threatening sub-1:20 or so, the thing you need in run isn't speed work. It's volume. Anything less than 50 mpw, and I don't fret about the speed.

That doesn't mean I don't do speed. I just don't let it substitute for volume. And for something like a HIM run, I would make a few of your speed workouts be much longer blocks. 2 x 3 miles at tempo/threshold maybe. Or plan a 5k race here or there and treat it like a speed workout.

That's just my experience. (And fast run or not, I can't tell you how many times I've been crushed by terrible runners who swam and biked like monsters.)

Last edited by: JoeO: Mar 27, 19 16:21

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