I guess, as with anything, it comes down to opinion. Everyone thinks their idea is right and that is set in stone. Not everyone cares to look at the other side of the coin. That said I consider myself a christian and if asked will gladly share my take on it. If that leads you to being a christian too..good for both of us. I do not however condone the heavy handed tactics of some people/religions where they are right and you are wrong to the extent you either change to their ways or die (or in a less harsh vein...I want nothing to do with you). Sadly I cannot say with all conviction that what I know is unquestionably right (I have no irrefuteably evidence that will allow me to do so) but I do know what I know. Right or wrong when all is said and done...we'll surely know. I wont even bother putting on flame protection for this one as I fully realize my comments have opened me up to being a fence sitting hypocrite..so be it.

So they feel better about the religeon they have chosen. May also be that they have doubts about their own beliefs...

I'll probably get flamed for this, power and economics. The more members a religion has the more power it wields in society, the more likely it is that it's views will be seen as the norm. The more members a religion has the more tithe it recieves, the more money it has. this money in turn may be used to further the cause/doctrine of said church and we are back to power again. Feel free to disagree, I have my asbestos undies on.

---

Jim

**Note above poster works for a retailer selling bikes and related gear*

Not a religious scholar here, but I'll take a stab at this historical question using modern marketing as a lens.

I think when many religions formed (before hollywood, bollywood, MTV, mass media, etc.), each religion was in a competitive marketplace of ideas. Each had to convince its potential adherents of two things: (1) This new 'blank' religion was the BEST, THE ONE, whatever ... and that (2) all other religions (blankety-blank and blankety-blank) were WRONG, BAD, etc.

So when the new adherents picked up the new religion, they became self-contained little marketing machines by practicing and talking up the 'new' religion and killing off the 'old' religion by telling all who would listen that the 'old religion was WRONG and very, very BAAAD...

So I think the desire of one religion to indoctrinate others with their beliefs has its origin in this process as way for the new religion (in ancient, pre-mass media times) to gain a foothold in the world. Simplistic, but I think basically true.

---

---

Where would you want to swim ?

We need someone who supports this to chime in.

---

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

For the exact same reason that you do it; although in your case it is bicycles/fit. How much more so would you give your knowledge to others if you thought it would have eternal consequences? In the same light, how fervently do you discuss the need for a helmet before a group leaves your store for a ride you sponsor?

It's much more fundamental than any of the other posters have suggested. In the Bible, Jesus gives a directive to believers that's commonly known as the Great Commission which says

But the eleven disciples went into Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had sent them. When they saw him, they bowed down to him, but some doubted. Jesus came to them and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth. Therefore go, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I commanded you. Behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
Matthew 28:16-20

Therefore, Christians have been commanded by God to "invest energy in trying to convince other people, not necessarily of their own religion, that their religion is good or "the best" or "the way"? Additionally, Christians believe that the only way to salvation is through belief in Jesus Christ and that we are to love our neighbor as ourselves. As a result, to want anything less than salvation for your neighbor is actually hypocritical.

Now that is a very good arguement.

Ooops! I forgot to add the "Eternal Consequences" factor.

---

---

Where would you want to swim ?

Good point, been too long since I read the bible, forgot that part.

---

Jim

**Note above poster works for a retailer selling bikes and related gear*

When the Gods of other religions make a similar decree, how do we resolve this competition for numbers?

My experience is that it is done on the battlefield.

I don't like that.

---

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Damn right.

You don't have to be a history expert to see how many folks have been murdered, tortured, dismembered, and who knows what else over "religion".

Even Mr. J.C. would have been appalled.

---

---

Where would you want to swim ?

I have a two part answer for you.

1) The "Gods" of other religions all lived, and then died, and therefore can not promise the eternal salvation that Christ guarantees through his death and resurrection.

2) That's where the faith part comes in.

Solving the my god/your god debate on the battlefield is a human solution, not a Divine one.

"You don't have to be a history expert to see how many folks have been murdered, tortured, dismembered, and who knows what else over "religion". "



Not nearly as many as have been murdered, tortured, and opressed in the name of various Godless ideologies. Not anywhere near as many.

---

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

What needs resolution? Some people think they don't need to ride with a helmet, you think they do. There is no problem unless you decide that they must wear a helmet or you will kill them. (a properly fitting bike is another matter though, some things require extreme measures)

Yes, it kind of flies in the face of the whole "Thall shall not murder" thing. But as I mentioned to Tom, that's a human solution, not a Divine one. Just because I say I'm a Christian doesn't mean I am. Only my actions can prove that. Triathlon is not the only place that has posers.

I would differ with your assertion.

Show me some numbers regarding whether religion (or war over religion, religious culture, etc.) or "various Godless ideologies" have murdered, tortured, dismembered, etc. more people.

Ultimately the point is unprovable either way. But religion has NO EXCUSE. Those numbers SHOULD be ZERO.

And they are not.

---

---

Where would you want to swim ?

> When the Gods of other religions make a similar decree, how do we resolve this competition

Are you talking future tense? Or past tense? Because in the present tense, I have this question: What other of any of the major religions have or follow a similar decree? I'd like to know.

I've simply never seen a Jewish, Hindu, Islamic, or Buddhist missionary. Not saying they don't exist - just that I've never met one, or even heard of one. But my own grandmother was a Baptist missionary. Catholic missionaries are world famous (especially in say, Latin America). The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Mormons) have what is arguably the most organized and aggressive missionary program on the planet.

Where are the Islamic, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, Shinto, Sikh, Jainist, Wiccan missionaries? (especially the first three, which are quite huge, though not as big as Christianity)

-Zo

It's about love. Simple as that. Read the Bible and see they message of love repeated throughout. It's about love. Those seeking power and killing have gone astray and forgotten priority #1, and do not represent the rest ... just as Hitler doesn't represent Germans.

Do your own research and test the accuracy of the Bible. Read how the Gospels stand up against other ancient texts. Read how the spread of Christianity compares to the spread of other religions. Look at it from a historical context. read about what Jesus' enemies had to say about him.

I'd start with "The case for Christ" for $10. Something this important is worth $10 and a few evenings readings. make sure you really believe what you believe ... no matter what side your on. There is an incredible amount of evidence (Biblical and non-Biblical) out there. Most of it points to one direction (IMO).

It's about love. Find out for yourself.

---

=======================
-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

One of my favorite quotes concerning religion is the following:

"There is enough religion in the world to make men hate, but not enough to make them love"

True, no? Oddly enough, it was spoken by R. DeNiro playing satan in "Angel Heart".

---

_________________________________________________
"The will to win means nothing without the will to prepare" - Juma Ikangaa

http://www.litespeed.com

   "Just because I say I'm a Christian doesn't mean I am. Only my actions can prove that. Triathlon is not the only place that has posers."

Great line. So many people talk. So few ACT.

Please explain this, though--many Christians have told me that actions don't ultimately matter, just faith, and asking for help from Mr. J.C. So who is right? You or them (the other Chrisitians)?

---

---

Where would you want to swim ?

"Christians believe that the only way to salvation is through belief in Jesus Christ and that we are to love our neighbor as ourselves. As a result, to want anything less than salvation for your neighbor is actually hypocritical."

In some places, proselytizing can be considered "hate speech." In fact, if you follow the logic eloquently put forth by Matt, it is really "love" speech.

Doing it at the point of a sword, gun, or Boeing 767 is not what God intended, however. Because religions are run by humans, they are not perfect.

Perhaps I could offer a slightly different hypothesis. If you believe in Christ, or in good and evil for that matter, then you acknowledge the existence of evil. Christians typically refer to the embodiment of evil as Satan or the Devil. If Satan exists then it's safe to say the he's active in the world and not just sitting at home toying with Mr. Tibbs' mind. If Satan is active, then it seems likely that he's doing things to derail the good in the world. Some of this good is being carried out in the name of Christ, so I would argue that since God and Satan aren't really on speaking terms, that Satan would spend most of his time trying to derail the good that's being carried out specifically in the name of God. If all of this holds true, then I would reason that most of the evil that's carried out in the name of God like murder, torture, dismemberment, etc., is actually the work of Satan. Just a thought.

Problem with someone riding without a helmet and being killed is that it is not just their problem- when they become injured/killed it instantly becomes my problem.

Riding without a helmet jeapordizes our sport and my business, is selfish and ignorant.

People riding without helmets resulted in the following damages to our cycling community in 2003:

1. Forced us to drop sponsorship of a local club, that is an otherwise excellent club, becasue we cannot guarantee our insurance coverage on rides where everyone is not wearing a helmet.

2. Forced us to pull down a real-time, live Internet "ride board" that listed all local group rides.

3. Forced us to cancel all organized group rides.

People who don;t wear a helmet affect everyone, not just themselves.

Wasn't this about religion? :)

---

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Tom, that's a great question. I just wish they wouldn't because it'll never change my beliefs as a confirmed agnostic.

"many Christians have told me that actions don't ultimately matter, just faith, and asking for help from Mr. J.C. So who is right? You or them (the other Chrisitians)?"

I think the point is that you can't earn your way into heaven. The only way to heaven is through belief in Christ and repentance for your sins. No amount of good deeds will get you there. That being said, if you have accepted Christ into your life, to the extent humanly possible, your behaviour is expected to model that of Christ.

Please educate me. Another question that has been bugging me.

You say "It comes back to love." And "The Biblical message is simple ... if you want to spend eternity in heaven, you need to accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior and repent." But then you say "So, out of love for you and people in general, Christians try to lead others to Christ."

So, do Christians help others because they want to avoid hell, OR do they help others because they are filled with love?

Which is it? Because those are two very different motivations. One is fear of nasty punishment and the other is love. Quite different, eh?

---

---

Where would you want to swim ?

---

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

I edited (for brevity) my original post. Christians help people because we try and emulate Christ's teachings. Works don't get you into heaven. Salvation does.

Christianity that teaches "good deeds to earn heaven points" don't get that from the Bible. I have been spending an incredible amount of time trying to change my life to be the example I want it to be. It's not a good feeling realizing I've been living a hypocrite's life for quite a few years. I wonder how many of my actions have actually lured people away from hrist rather than towards him. I am trying tochange that.

It's really rather simple ... whenever you have questions on how to live or what to do ... the lesson is right there in the book.

---

=======================
-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

I believe that on a base, fundamental level it comes down to people being passionate about what they believe in. Farther up in the hierarchy it comes down to money, but if we are talking about the people that knock on your door, it is a passion for what they believe in.

it takes passion to go door to door attempting to pass on their religion. Think about the arguments we have on here about bike geometry, position and aerodynamics. These people are as passionate about their religion as we are about going faster, whether in the water, on a bike or running.

We can argue about the Catholic religion and bring up some of these quacks that require you to tithe over 50% of your income to the church and then they re-distribute the wealth, but the fundamental thing that drives these people is a passion for their religion and their way of life.

Remember the look on someone's face when you explain how much time you spend each week training and pursuing your passion in life. It is the same for very religious people that work at spreading their religion.

I stayed away from Christianity for a long time because my perception was that it was a religon of "don't" ruled by fear of hell.

One of the biggest things that convinced me of the truth of Christianity is when I came to realize that there really isn't a do/don't list for salvation. Simply believe in Him. If you believe in Him, then your behavior will fall into line on its own without a need for exhaustive lists of restrictions. In fact, it is my belief that if you still are looking for that list of restricted or required actions then you don't really understand what JC was talking about.

So you're saying it affects you if I ride without a helmet, but your (ir)religious beliefs don't affect me? Think again.

Do you think America would be any different if we were all Muslims? What if America was a Catholic country? Your beliefs have a huge effect on my life, because they help shape the very society I live in, and raise my children in. Don't kid yourself that you can be an atheist, or a polytheist, or a fundamentalist, without influencing my life. This idea we have of private faith is a sham.

---

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Good reply from vitus. Couldn't we rephrase what you said this way:

Riding without a helmet jeapordizes our sport and my business, is selfish and ignorant.

Living a sinful life jeopardizes our sport, my business, so many other things, is selfish and ignorant.


People riding without helmets resulted in the following damages to our cycling community in 2003:

People living a sinful life resulted in the following damages to our community: ... a very, very long list

> Your beliefs have a huge effect on my life, because they help shape the very society I live in, and raise my children in.

Well then, sounds like we're all even (ah - equal!?). And if that ain't the core idea that makes this society (Western society, America, blah, blah, blah) work like it does, then I don't know what that idea is.

-Zo

> Living a sinful life jeopardizes our sport, my business, so many other things, is selfish and ignorant.

Well now that's a troublesome point of view. I wonder how well our definitions of 'sinful' might coincide?

"Let he who is without sin..."

Right. Guess I'm selfish and ignorant!

-Zo

If you found the secret to peace in life and eternal security in death, why keep it secret?

Two stories:

A Sergeant is on patrol in southeastern Europe with his long range recon team. They are using an indigenous personnel as a guide and interpreter. They find a wounded boy who is a Muslim. As they prepare a routine, hourly situation report an argument of some sort erupts. It escalates. Suddenly the indigenous guide, who is Christian, levels his assualt rifle at the chest of the wounded boy (who is lying on the ground) and empties it into his chest. It looks a like the boy is being consumed by a power tool- his chest disinetegrates and his head cames off, rolling casually to the side. For a moment there is shock. The patrol leader asks the indigenous guide "Why did you do that?" The guide replies "He was a Muslim."

The young sergeant draws his sidearm and, behind his back, drops the magazine and clears a round from the chamber. Then he presses the barrel of the handgun to the Christian guide's head and says, "Funny, I'm a Muslim too." and pulls the trigger on an empty chamber. The patrol leader tells the guide, "If you do that again we will kill you and put your home on the NATO target list for known terrorist locations."

From then on, the guide behaves himself.

A friend of mine attempted suicide. She called me when she did and I took her to the emergency room. She was in bad shape. Her boyfriend fucked her over big time. After spending the night with her in the psych ward (big fun) I go to leave in the morning and encounter two customers of mine- a pair of fellas who are members of The Church of the Later Day Saints, I believe they refer to themselves as Mormons. I say "Hi" to them as I am leaving the hosptial. They have always been good customers and appear to spend a lot of time on their bicycles in the course of their religious duties.

"What brings you to the hospital?" They ask me. I tell them. They ask how my friend is. They ask if there is anything else they can do. I tell them, "Well, maybe you can look in on her..." I leave and then start to worry, "Oh no, I wonder if those guys will try to convert her or something- she doesn't need that right now" (or maybe she did...).

Anyway. She gets out of the hospital, makes a complete recovery and asks me, "Who were your friends with the suits on that you sent up to visit me? They were very nice and I appreciated them being there. They stayed two hours" The two men treated her with kindness, respect and sympathy. They didnt once mention their beliefs. They only left a bible on her table when they left, without even mentioning it.

The next time I saw them in my store I told them "I want to thank you for your kindness toward my friend, I really appreciate it. You guys are very fine people. I hope you will keep my friend in your prayers- it seems to help."

Two situations. Two different outcomes. Interesting.

---

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Respectfully, I'll disagree with your assertion about the bible representing love. Perhaps the New Tesatment does (I'm not well-versed enough on the matter to comment), but the Old Testament is not about "love". It's about old-school respect and fear of the almighty G-d, because of the power he wields. There's repeated instances of G-d testing the belief of his people:

-Look at Genesis 22, where he forces Abraham to offer up his only son as a sacrifice, and only relents at the last minute (when Abraham has the knife in his hands, and is ready to do the deed).

-Exodus, where his people suffer through generations of slavery, for reasons that can only be considered "fuzzy".

-The Book of Job.

I'll take this chance to mention I am a non-practicing Jew; 11 years of Religious School, 4 years of Hebrew School, and I walked away with more questions and delusions about the religion. The one good thing I can say definitively is that it doesn't actively "recruit"; "Jewish Missionary" is an oxymoron.

I'm open minded to all religions (with exception of Scientologists; for some reason I can't stand them), and it can make for some interesting debates. But at the end of the day, I always remember that at Jonestown, they gave the women and children the Kool-Aid first.

So, is the "God" of Judaism not the same "God" of Christianity?

---

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

great post...you beat me to it!

Disclaimer: I am a "Traditional" Catholic. So a lot of you folks would consider me a kook. It's OK, I can take it. Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam! ;)

The important thing to grasp, and that I think non-believers have a hard time understanding, is that I really believe this stuff. I believe in the angels, I believe the Devil exists and really does actively work to get your (and my) soul condemned to Hell, I believe in sin and its effects, I believe in God, I believe that Jesus is both fully human and fully divine, and so on. I believe that after this life, we are all going to face judgement, and some of us will get to Heaven, and some of us will go to Hell. I don't think of the Church as some social club, or a big support group. I believe in the supernatural, and I think the supernatural has laws every bit as immutable as the physical laws. And when those laws are violated, the consequences are just as real.

Why do I invest energy trying to convince people my religion is the right way? A lot of reasons. For one thing, I believe I have an obligation- God wants people to be saved, and that isn't likely if they're following a false religion, or no religion. If I did nothing to help them, I'd be remiss in my duty. For another, other people's beliefs do affect me, and the environment I live in. It's harder for me to be good in a bad society than a good one. And ultimately, it's a matter of charity, and friendship. If I'm really your friend, I should do everything I can to help you get to Heaven, and avoid Hell.

---

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Tom,

Your "two stories" are good, and the topic is a good one.

I think i've discussed with you and others where I stand. Think about whether a truly religious person - I mean a believer and follower - would use religion as either a shield or a sword? How about where someone else is shown harn, instead of love, including loving forgiveness? And, does a real believer show and do harm to others? Unfortuately, some give religion a bad name, and in the very name of religion at that.

Personally, I just try to do good (I do hate it when "bad david" comes out) and discuss religion with others when the topic comes up naturally.

---

David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

Same God, just a different view. I don't know enough about Judaism to speak intelligently, but I believe they don't recognize Jesus Christ as the Son of God, just a prophet. Christianity teaches that when Jesus Christ came to earth, the Mosaic law established in the Old Testament was forgotten.

> I'll disagree with your assertion about the bible representing love
That assertion was never there; as far as I can tell reviewing my post I never said anything that could be construed that way.

On the ligher side, one thing you have to say about the old testament, God has got style. I mean, if I were a diety I would just be frying people left and right but God puts some real style into it. Who here would have thought of a pillar of salt? Locust I can understand, but frogs and flies? If it were up to me, Jonah would have been a burned spot on the ground.

That, to me is one of the very points of the New Testament - with Christ, everything changed. Everything else was just a prelude. It was the set up - the very reason why Christ came (and was needed). To me this makes very good sense. Folks, in criticizing religion look at all the things God did or let happen. They are basically all in the old testament. With Christ, all things changed.

---

David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

It doesn't matter how they coincide or if the coincide. My behavior, to some extent effects your life. If I decide to drink and drive you can bet it effects your sport regardless of whether or not you think it is sinful. Don't read anything else into my post.

Something I've always wondered about, and perhaps you, as a true believer, can provide some insight. What follows is an extreme example, so bear with me.

Josef Stalin, on his deathbed, repents and discovers Christ. Mahatma Ghandi dies a Hindu. Who goes to Heaven, who goes to Hell, or elsewhere? In light of that, just what is our purpose in *this* life?

---

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

Why do some members of a religion (any religion) invest energy in trying to convince other people, not necessarily of their own religion, that their religion is good or "the best" or "the way"?

Kind of the same question Job had after his friends showed up. As with Job's friends they are often less then helpful and may be driven more by fear than love.

The apostle Paul, prior to his conversion, was the type of person you are referring to. People turned up dead or in prision from disagreeing with him. Years later, after his conversion, he wrote the way of love (1 Corithians 13). Paul begins the primacy of the way of love with these words, "Now I will you show you the most excellent way." I think Jesus' blesses the latter and does not have much toleration for the former.

That hits it on the nose. Is it not so much more important to share information that deals with eternity than to share info about how to race farther or faster.

We as Christians don't spread the gospel to be better than anyone else or because we get points with God. Works don't cut it. We do it out of Love and,as mentioned earlier we are comanded to. We strongly believe in what we have and want others to have this same thing. When you have great information you want to share it, in fact you can't wait to share it with others.

I also recommend the book, The case for Christ. The author was an atheist who set out to to prove that there was no God, but, he ends up finding God instead.

Yeah. The Crusades. The Black Death. The Inquisition. Krakatoa. The Holocaust. Genocide in Africa. Yup, things sure have changed since then.

---

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

> It doesn't matter how they coincide or if the coincide.

Not in the example you gave.

> My behavior, to some extent effects your life.

I agree, and mine yours, of course.

> I decide to drink and drive you can bet it effects your sport regardless of whether or not you think it is sinful.

No doubt. And while I'm not a believer, I'll agree that it's "bad" (yeah, sinful). But me having sex with my wife before we were married - "sinful" by the judgment of many (like her parents for example). But how did it effect you, or the sport? Especially, how did it negatively effect anybody, other than making her parents grouchy for a few years? "Sin" it was, and to boot, we're not believers. We're definitely going to somebody's Hell.

> Don't read anything else into my post.

I don't think I am. And certainly not passing any judgement! Just trying to figure it all out, maybe state my case a little bit.

-Zo

One of the common beliefs in Christianity concerns judgement at the time of, or immediately after death. My understanding is the everyone is judged, not just Christians. I make room for the possibilty of God revealing his glory at the time of your death and saying "Ok, you've got one more chance. Are you in or out."

The Bible and all Christian teaching are a handbook, but at the end of the day, I don't want a God that I can understand.

Without having read any of the other responses, here's how I think of it, Tom. Suppose I had some information that would guarrantee you a podium finish in any tri you chose to enter. Using this information would cost you nothing, costs me nothing to share it, and it would work every time. Also, it would not effect my place in the race in any way. Now, what kind of selfish bastard would I be if I kept that information to myself?

I believe the faith that I hold makes one a guaranteed winner at life's finish line. I would imagine that is why most people feel compelled to share their religion with others.

> what kind of selfish bastard would I be if I kept that information to myself?

A cheating selfish bastard! ;)

-Zo

I'm just agreeing with David. Just as it's incorrect to take one verse out of context, it's wrong (i.e. inaccurate) to look at one book/part of the Bible without relating it to the rest. Overall, the Bible is a huge message of Love.

For God so loved ....

------------------------------------

It bothers me to see so many people say Christianity is about money and power. Who is this based on? The huge minority of Christian leaders that exploit others and are false witnesses? This really bothers me. It basing everyone and everything on the actions of very few. It's stereotyping, which is always wrong.

I do admit there are some factions of Christianity that are borderline making up their own rules, adding books to the Bible that other scholars felt did not fit, etc. When I say Christianity ... I am referring to the belief as described in The Gospels, and when I refer to the church I am talking of the group of believers (as described i Acts, etc).

As others (and myself) have recommended ... please use $10 to check out the book, The Case for Christ. If you've ever wanted to put the Gospels and Jesus on trial and view the evidence ... this is your chance. The experts do all the busy work.

---

=======================
-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

So you can't answer the question?

If you don't understand your God, why do you think that, for instance, the Pope understands God?

---

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

My thoughts (and questions) - not necessarily to you vitus, you're just the last post so I stress this isn't aimed at you! ;-)

My biggest question (at least today.. and with respect to this thread), Is my understanding of many religions (not all I understand) is that God is a loving and forgiving God (else why would he forgive you if you ask for forgiveness?), BUUUUT, in the infinitely long time-span of eternity we take up a teeny, tiny, infinitesimally small fraction of that time yet are expected to make a decision that will effect our immortal soul for the next bazillion years, with no hope of redemption or reconciliation outside of that tiny window of opportunity (whoops, didn't mean for that huge long run-on sentence!). Now, God made us imperfect, we have free-will, thereby implying there is the chance to make the imperfect decision. If He KNOWS we are imperfect beings, doesn't it seem awfully punitive for Him to punish us (His creations) for all eternity after only giving us the briefest instant of time to "see the light"? What about the children who die, the teenager who dies in a car wreck, the person who dies accidentally before having the opportunity to fully develop a spiritual conscience? They get banished to hell FOREVER?!?! They had 0.000000000001% of all eternity to make a pretty large decision and don't get another shot? I don't want to believe in the God that would do that.

Next belief/statement: Maybe "hell" is simply the absence of God? If Heaven is being united with God for all eternity, then why wouldn't hell be the exact opposite of that? If that is the case, you could argue there are an awful lot of people in "hell" right now wandering around the planet, which would also of course mean they still have an opportunity to get into Heaven. Maybe it's like a big merry-go-round that you get off and on several times before you get the right set of events to occur to your spirit that allow you entry to the big top?

I'll never understand the "my-way or hell for you" attitude. Not so loving, for a bunch of religions based around a pretty loving guy. I'm really trying to stay out of naming a religion during this thing, I was raised in a certain faith, have studied several more of them, and seen others play out with friends and acquaintences; but one anecdote I'll never forget was how at the age of 7 my little sister came home crying and terrified that she was going to "burn in hell" because that was what the rather fundamentalist (insert religion here) neighbor girl told her. How's that for loving and accepting? WHile I am tolerant of,and actually pretty accepting of, just about all religions/faiths, I have ZERO tolerance for crazed fundamentalists of any faith.

Like Vitus, I also believe in the supernatural and the spirit and what-not, but I've just gravitated from, what I believe to be, the hypocritical doctrines of many organized religions. Historically there just seems to be an awful lot of "do as I say not as I do" and like someone else threw out there, religion is big business, REALLY big business.

Lastly, I believe in God, and am pretty sure that I believe in most the stuff that goes along with the christianity based religions. Never will I believe that your actions don't matter though. I think I remember somewhere in the Bible (old T or new T, not sure) That there is directive to do good works. Jesus led by example, why would your actions not matter? Religion/Faith shouldn't be a "get-out-of-jail-free" card that by accepting Jesus, Wham! the slate is clean. "Not by faith alone..." I'm 99.9% sure that one is in there.

Now my last "lastly". Someone said that some faith or another's God is the only one to never actually be a human person or something like that, and that's why they are different. I think you're wrong on that one. Many. many polytheistic religions have gods/demi-gods that never walked the planet, and you need to look no further than the religions of the Native Americans to find the Great Spirit, who guides actions, but never walked the planet as a "normal guy".

I think this is the "nicest" religion thread I've read on here...maybe ever! Must be because spring is here and we all finally get to ride outside (stick my tongue out at all Californians here).

PEACE!!

Actually, I think I did answer the question. Yes, Christianity and Judaism believe in the same God. The difference is the belief in Jesus Christ.

I understand God as well as I can. I believe the Pope understands God as well as he can (by the way, I'm not Roman Catholic so I don't necessarily believe the Pope's got the God market cornered). What I mean when I say that I don't want a God that I can understand is that the universe is an infinitely amazing, complex, beautiful creation and I don't believe someone as ignorant as myself could have created it. Besides, the Bible makes very clear that our earthly life is not all there is so there must be some surprises on the other side.

I didn't realize those were in the New Testament!? Your quote was taken a tad bit out of context, don't you think? That part of the discussion was about love being in the Bible and the difference between the New and OLd Testament. Unfortunately, I think that is the way most religious type discussions go - one side starts taking bits and pieces and tries to make an over arching argument. Like most things, it's not quite that easy - either for or against.

Best wishes,

---

David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

Sorry, my mistake. You did answer that question. I had my replies confused. Am I forgiven?

---

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

Of course you're forgiven. All you have to do is ask.

You may remember a long time ago the columninst Allison wrote about her decision to get a divorce. I wish her well and told her as much. However, every couple that decides to get a divorce (don't go down the abuse road that's not what we are talking about) makes it that much easier for me to do the same, therefore is an attack on my marriage.

You premarital sex may have affected others into the same decision, granted it probably affected their decision to a small degree. Therefore, your decision to choose a lesser path possibly led others into negative results that a sinful life can bring. For example, while I don't have the studies in front of me, I think it is fairly well established that couples who cohabitated before marriage are far more likely to divorce, more likely to have children outside of marriage, etc. We all know the negative effects on single parent children even if we are not supposed to talk about it.

It would be very easy to take the above statements farther than I intend them. I don't like the idea of legislating morality or in any way trying to force these issues. For me, it is more of a subject that causes great introspection and examination of my own life, attitudes, words and actions. Before I was a Christian I could have written your exact reponse. Indeed even for a long time after I became a Christian I could have written your exact response. The uncomfortable fact is that everything we do, say even down to our attitudes affects other people for good or ill regardless of your religous status.

   

Here's what was said:

"That, to me is one of the very points of the New Testament - with Christ, everything changed. Everything else was just a prelude. It was the set up - the very reason why Christ came (and was needed). To me this makes very good sense. Folks, in criticizing religion look at all the things God did or let happen. They are basically all in the old testament. With Christ, all things changed."

I took "all the things God did or let happen" and "all things changed" to mean *all*, not just in the New Testament. Only the first phrase of the first sentence refers to the NT; everything else is in reference to Christ or "all things".

---

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

I can't give you an exact age at which time God expects us to be able to understand or acknowledge who he is. But everyone, at some point in their short lifespan will have the opportunity to accept or deny Christ. That is part of the fulfillment of the second coming that everyone in the world be given the opportunity to hear the gospel and make a decision. This is why their are missionaries all over the world fulfiling the great commission.

Secondly, Jesus Christ is the only God who has died for our sins and risen.

Also, accepting Christ as your personal Lord and Savior is the only way to enter his kingdom. When we do that we are to strive to live a life that reflects Christ, meaning we should want to do good works- going back again to that 'love' thing. But doing good works does not get us into heaven.

I agree with you, this has been a good post with good questions, and hopefully some good answers.

Interesting that you refer to the Bible (both New and Old Testament) as a whole. Does that make the Old Testament only half, thereby making Jews "incomplete", or "lesser"? It's a slippery slope to start to descend.

If you were to table the subject with a Mormon, they might contend that the Bible has three books. According to that logic, that would make Christians (non-Mormons) "lesser" as well, as they don't believe in what Mormons see as the "whole" Bible.

I guess the Book of Mormon is to Christians as the New Testament is to Jews. Interesting and enlightening, but not ncessarily the word of G-D.

Do you not have your own moral compass that you can follow to determine the right and wrong things for your own life? I think this is where a lot of people (like Quakers) who believe that people should be allowed to live their own lives fail to understand those who, for example, oppose gay marriage or homosexual behavior.

Well, aren't we judgmental.

---

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

Tom,

My answer may be a little off topic but I think at the end I will be able to make it stick.

A couple of years ago a friend of mine and I were talking about parenting at luch. My wife and I had already made the decision that parenting was not for us. My friend could not understand how we would make a decision like that and went on trying to convince me of the fulfillment, pure joy, and unconditional love that rearing children brings to one's life. I went on to try to explain to him that for some that is absolutely the right thing to do, but in our case we felt that it was not right for us. And until we knew in our hearts and souls that rearing children was right for us we would not take on that responsibility. He alternately stated, as matter of factly as possible, that it is right for everyone and there is no way to achieve that certainty until you have children.

My point here is that when you believe something so fervently that you want everyone to experience the same "joy" that you are experiencing. And there is no way anyone can fully understand or appreciate that "joy" without experiencing it the same way you do.

Hope that was not too far off topic.

Pete

IRT your question about the Pope--I think if you asked the man Karol Wojtyla (better known as Pope John Paul II) whether he "understood" God, he would tell you that God is so vast, has existed for so long, and has so much perfect knowledge about everything, that no man, Pope or not, can ever hope to understand him. As Pope, he doesn't get a direct pipeline to God, he must struggle, pray, read, and pray some more to try to understand God and do his will. There are thousands of people within the Church doing the same thing they have been doing for thousands of years--scouring through everything written or said, about historical or scientific knowledge, and praying, praying, praying--to help themselves and others know and understand God--and they probably haven't even scratched the surface yet.

Don't look to natural or manmade disasters to disprove the existence of God--(He never promised us a life on earth free of pain, sadness or illness)--instead, look to good to prove His existence.

> Well, aren't we judgmental.

LOL. Indeed. But as a non-believer for the greater part of my life, I'm pretty accustomed to being judged... ;-)

There is one quote from the bible that is my absolute favorite. But I'd be repeating myself.

-Zo

Riding without a helmet jeapordizes our sport and my business, is selfish and ignorant.

People riding without helmets resulted in the following damages to our cycling community in 2003:

1. Forced us to drop sponsorship of a local club, that is an otherwise excellent club, becasue we cannot guarantee our insurance coverage on rides where everyone is not wearing a helmet.

2. Forced us to pull down a real-time, live Internet "ride board" that listed all local group rides.

3. Forced us to cancel all organized group rides.

People who don;t wear a helmet affect everyone, not just themselves.

Wasn't this about religion? :)



I would agree with that but so does a lot of other decisions people make effect us. People that drink and drive. People that break other laws. People that get divorced at a drop of the hat ( not picking on anyone), that leave kids to single mothers that don't have time to raise their own kids. these are things that really affect us. You can on and on about peoples decisions and how they effect a lot of people. I for one believe my religion helps me to stay away from alot of these pitfalls in life. Therefore I am going to preach to whoever will listen. Yes, I also believe my religion to be true, but its the fruits that it brings me that I will sing about. I am a firm believer in freedom of choice and free agency. I also believe its my right and duty to stand up for what I believe to be true.

Bob in Vegas

In fact, we're promised quite the opposite. Jesus promised that while on earth we would have great trouble, but that earth was not all there is.

Of course I have my own moral compass, and I don't mean to say that anyone is responsible for someone else's mistakes. However, you cannot deny social effects. Take it to a level a little less sensitive, the point and the principle is the same. Why does Gordo Byrn surround himself with other hard working, upbeat pros? Doesn't he have his own training principles to guide him? Why doesn't he live with a couple out of shape, lazy, but enteraining guys? In the same way I am coming to realize the benefit to surrounding myself with friends who are doing their best to live examined lives who do not want to compromise their principles.

The proper place of moral legislation is definitely a tough subject and is not cut and dried. I read a thought provoking editorial the other day stating that the civil rights movement (MLK in particular) was primarily a religous movement and that without that religous, moral component civil rights legislation would have been a very long time coming (as if it didn't take long enough). At the same time, the vast majority of us don't want the govt embedded in moral legislation.

> Well, aren't we judgmental.
Yes, but only because he brought it up as a topic on this particular subject. Would you rather have me hypocritical and pretend that I think it is OK?

> Would you rather have me hypocritical and pretend that I think it is OK?

Of course not. Your posts have all been quite thoughtful and thought-provoking.

But I'm still going to Hell.

-Zo

At least you'll have a lot of company. ;)

"not a Divine one."

In the old testmant god was really good at calling for slaughter in his name. he also flooded the world, destroyed entire cities including the inocent and destroyed lives to test faith. No the christian god is a violent god.

---

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

That's true. But if you keep reading, that all changes with Jesus Christ.

> At least you'll have a lot of company. ;)

Do think they'll all smoke?

-Zo

This kind of thing worries me about organized religion too:

http://www.cnn.com/...ren.slain/index.html

---

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Oooops sorry about all that. Now I have split my personality starting worshipping myself and presto all is forgiven. Strange.

---

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

Tom, this woman is clearly insane. What on earth would make you think that organized religion caused this?

As I mentioned earlier, this kind of thing is in my mind, clearly the work of Satan.

She is obviously crazy. I once had a client tell me that God told him to run for office and then proceeded to lay out the platform that God gave him to run on. I didn't take the race, but I did watch as he went down hard in a primary election. I'm not sure his own family voted for him.

People need to believe in something and sometimes they use a higher power to justify their actions. Think about the suicide bombers who needlessly kill scores of people for Allah and a spot forever in paradise.

"People need to believe in something and sometimes they use a higherpower to justify their actions. Think about the suicide bombers who needlessly kill scores of people for Allah and a spot forever in paradise."

My point exactly.

---

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Tom, I didn't write this but I think it might help.

We know from many other places in God's Word that the heart contains our true character and true relationship with our Heavenly Father. When God was showing Samuel who to anoint as king of Israel He reminded Him: "The Lord does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart" (1 Samuel 16:7). Our outward actions are a "reflection" of the condition of our heart, but they are not a true image and most certainly can deceive!

God saw this deception in the worship of His Children long ago. We are all susceptible to the trap of going through the motions of worship without really having a heart devoted to God: "These people come near to Me with their mouth and honor Me with their lips, but their hearts are far from Me. Their worship of Me is made up only of rules taught by men" (Isaiah 29:13).

For those that have other questions or wish to get more info on the questions they do have ... check here:

http://christiananswers.net/home.html

I think you'll find that the questions here are not unique ... and ones that many Christians have asked themselves before. People don't believe in something they believe to be false or inaccurate. Only evidence erases doubt.

-----------------------------------------------

No the christian god is a violent god.

God has went to great lengths to get our attention ... yet many still ignore God. Is violence God's first or last option (you can answer this question with some reading)?

When your parents punished you for going against them, did you think of them as "violent" or as loving parents trying to get you to realize you are not doing what you have been instructed to do?

---

=======================
-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

Similarly, it's pointless to argue against a faith that you don't know anything about.

Sorry I have to call you on this one. What a wimpy way out. I hope that I'm just seeing one side of your feelings on this issue. You would really let a small percentage of crazies make up your mind on such an issue? Please tell me that you have studied a handful of religons for yourself and spent some serious time in self examination afterwards.

Remember the LBS thread from last Friday? How fair would it be for me to say, I've met/heard of several LBS owners that are self righteous, arrogant, etc. therefore I'm going to scrap the whole lot of them.

"If you were to table the subject with a Mormon, they might contend that the Bible has three books. According to that logic, that would make Christians (non-Mormons) "lesser" as well, as they don't believe in what Mormons see as the "whole" Bible. "



Hi sorry not meaning to split hairs and realize this has nothing to do with the subject but...

The mormons believe that the Bible is the complete word of as it deals with the people of the middle east. The Book of Mormon is a seperate companiion book to the bible which talks about the peoples of North and South America and christ's visitations after his death. Kinda a whole world view.

They also believe they whole reserection story and use the King James version of the Bible and proably wouldn't arguw with anyones mais stream view of the Bible. They also don't believe yo headed for hell if you don't believe. You have another chance.

I was raised a mormon had to cross picket lines to go into church and the temple so from what I have seen in my life relegion is either where you go because you are afraid of death or you got an axe to grind.

I say leave people alone and if I go to hell then just play your harp and be happy it ain't you.

---

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

"You would really let a small percentage of crazies make up your mind on such an issue?"

I've seen a lot of crazies.

---

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

TripleThreat ,



Thankyou for the web site, I will be interested to take a close look at this....

---

"You're guaranteed to miss 100% of the shots you never take" - Wayne Gretzky

"When your parents punished you for going against them, did you think of them as "violent" or as loving parents trying to get you to realize you are not doing what you have been instructed to do? "



They didn't kill and mame on a grand scale then commit suicide an come back and say. Hey it's all cool. Why exactly is coming back to life the answer? I don't get it. Yes I have read and read and read and read. It's all gravy just leave me alone at work is all I ask.

---

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

***WARNING A CHRISTIAN HAS APPROACHED THE PULPIT****

Tom,

I'm going to offer up a possibility based on this thread and other posts that you've made over the last year or so. I may be way off base and piss you off or I may be right on and still piss you off. Either way, here goes.

You are hurting deeply inside and have tried a great number of things to fill that. You've tried it with women, with work, with life experiences, and most recently and most effectively with triathlon and training. But for some reason, it's still not enough. No matter how much you train, or work, or whatever, you still feel an emptiness inside and want it to go away. You think religion might be the answer, but maybe you tried that in the past and that didn't work either. Tom, I here to tell you that Jesus Christ is the answer. The hole that you feel inside is what Christians typically refer to as a "God shaped" hole. You can fill it and it is most definately worth it.

Please send me an email or send one to any of the other Christians that have posted and we'll be glad to explain why this is worth it and how Christ can change your life.

Hey tibbs, sorry to here you say that

<I say leave people alone and if I go to hell then just play your harp and be happy it ain't you. >

I guess the reason why Christians try to reach others is that once they understand the love of God and understand what Jesus Christ really did on that cross, they really can't help but want to share it with everyone. Sometimes it's out of moralistic reasons, but sometimes it really is out of genuine love for others.

This is just an example, but if a family member that you loved very much was going to Hell, wouldn't you try to talk to them, even if they didn't want you to. I guess it's hard to draw the line between respecting their desire to be left alone and really caring for their wellbeing.

I'm not saying that we are in that same position, since you aren't family and I don't have that relationship with you, but a concern is still there.

oh well, that's it. take it easy guys.

---

*****************************************

berndog
How did we all get sucked into this crazy sport anyway?!!

Matt,

I can tell this about my experience with the Christian people on this forum.

Through difficult times they have always extended kindness, understanding and a helping hand. That has never, ever been lost on me- and I sincerely appreciate it. I have recieved kind e-mails and offers of help and advice regarding the death of my friend Michael R. Rabe and other personal matters. I really appreciate and admire that.

I've had a lot of life expereinces. To be realistic, I've probably had as much life experience in as many places as most people would have in, maybe, five normal 80 year lifespans.

As a result, I've seen the greatest things, and been subjected to the worst things. And I'm still here- smarter and stronger because of all of it, but still often very weak and very stupid in the grand scheme of things.

I'm one of those guys who will tell you I have my "own set of beliefs" and I believe in them strongly, even when my faith in them is tested- actually they are especially strong then.

---

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Tom,

I'm glad that your experiences have been what they have, and I'm glad that you have faith in something. With no faith at all, life would be bleak indeed. It is not my job or calling to judge you or anyone else. What I am called to do is to love you and pray for you and try and help you, no matter what.

Matt

I served a Mormon mission in Tokyo, Japan for 2 years a decade or so ago. The Mormon church, as does many other Christian churches send out missionaries to preach and teach their doctrines to all four corners of the earth. In the Mormon faith, it is expected of every young man to go on a 2 year mission. You can go when you turn 19. Women can go when they turn 21.

I went on this mission not because it was expected of me, but because I had a desire to share what I believed. This desire to share came from the happiness and spiritual peace that I have found through the Mormon faith. Naturally, when you find something good, you want to share it with others. I think that this, along with Christ's admonition to his followers to teach His gospel is what prompts most Christian missionaries to leave the comforts of home and to go to far-away lands, leaving behind friends, families, education, etc. It was a sacrifice that I made, but it was so rewarding to me, personally, that I don't even consider it a sacrifice. My own personal convictions were strengthened and I grew to love and appreciate Christ for what he did for us more. I also met so many wonderful people who I respect and love as much as my own family. You truly care for those whom you serve.

Some faiths don't require you to go to distant countries or commit any particular amount of time. But the reason behind their teaching, I believe, is the same; they found something they love and want to share it. I don't think it has anything to do with being able wield more power politically or socially (that is entirely not the reason why I went). I also don't think it is to get their churches more money.

If someone asks you to learn about their faith, my guess is that they're doing so because they have found a source of joy and want to share it. Don't just blow it off as religious zealousy or idiocity, etc. I know that when I share what I believe, it's simply because I think that a particular person will be receptive and rspectful to what I have to say and will benefit from it, as I have.

i haven't had a cance to look through the rest of the posts but here are my 2 cents...

Prostelytizers in general do so because
their religion has a tenent saying that if you are of that religion you are saved or something to that effect. Inherent in that belief is that non-believers are not saved.

I believe that the people who are prosteolytic is becuase they care about their fellow man/woman and want them to be saved...

That is what I believe the idea behind it is...

On the other hand I don't believe that that is the motivation behind all people that prostelyze, like anything there are many motivations for doing something. Some people do it to get brownie points, or to validate their own beliefs... there are many bad reasons... I believe that the concern for your fellow person is a good reason...

Now I do know that some religions (judaism) specifically forbay protelyzing. The details are fuzzy but it started in eastern european judaism where they were living in the ghettos apart from the the non-jews. In russia I think, the peopel wanted to expell the jews becuase they were concerned that they would try to convert the non-jews... well in response, to be able to live where they already were they forbay prostelyzing


There are religions which have no inerest in prostelyzing at all (buddhism, shiinto etc...) so it is not a universal thing at all

I appreciate that Matt. You're a true friend and valued associate on this forum.

---

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Thanks Tom. Did you get your original question answered?

Not alone is the "God" of Christianity also the "God" of Judaism, but he/she/it is also the "God" of Islam.

Makes you wonder why everyone just can't get along, eh?

"God made us imperfect, we have free-will"

How do you know whether you have free will or not?

---

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

To answer your question, the God of the Bible reveals himself as a Creator who has given humans free will. Ergo, if you believe in that God, then you believe humans have free will; the biblical account doesn't leave that in question.

If we DON'T have free will, then that still means -- by necessity -- someone/something else that is greater than our existence is running the show, and we're just playing along unwittingly. That's still a mode of theism. Unless you beleive that everything is an illusion.

"If we DON'T have free will, then that still means -- by necessity -- someone/something else that is greater than our existence is running the show"

A lack of free will just means that there a series of rules governing the system, and as part of the system we are also governed by those rules. It does not necessarily follow that because there are rules, there must be a ruler. That's the whole "is there/isn't there a god" argument, and nobody is ever going to win that one.

And with that logic, I should probably have never asked the question in the first place, as it's a no-win situation. Damn, hoist by my own petard!

Hey Webswim:

I only meant that because humans are doing things in this life -- i.e. making choices, interacting, acting in a sentient fashion -- that either a) we are doing those things by own own volition (free will), or b) something else is compelling us to do them, that we can't otherwise perceive.

So it does follow that in those two cases, there must either be free will, or an outside power.

It depends on what you mean by "outside power". If you mean a "god" or some all-powerful sentient being, I'd disagree.


As a disclaimer, I don't believe in God, life after death etc.

Yes, I really struggled with that one myself...perhaps like Tom's link to the women who thought she heard that God told her to kill her kids what we got with Saul is what he thought he heard God tell him--discriptive rather than prescriptive.

Destroyed entire cities...some alternative interpretations, the judgement on S&G was due to their inhospitality to the stranger, the ones in need dependent on the altruism of others. Also goes to your hermeneutic == how you understand how we got what we got. Is the OT the views of the authors at the time, there giving you their best take on whats happened? In this case you have the author making a point regarding judgement, not only are individuals judged, but entire communities.

He flooded the world, Its called Genesis, the book of beginnings. Adam and Eve, that did not work. Tower of Babel, whoops. The Flood, do over. Let's start with one guy, Abram, and build a nation that will get it. It ain't happenen. This time its personal. Jesus.

Webswim:

"As a disclaimer, I don't believe in God, life after death etc."

Then it seems odd that you would posit your original query: "How do you know if you have free will?"

If we don't have free will, then something else must be in charge, because we seem to be making conscious choices of our own volition (if not us, then who's doing it for us?)

If you don't believe in God (or a god), then "not having free will" is not an option. On the contrary, free will would be all there is.

A disclaimer from me: theists generally believe in free will AND a transcendent God.

Bub, it is possible to argue that we don't have free will and there's no God. What I think Webswim is saying is that free will is an illusion, that ultimately we are acting merely out of a complex stimulus/response scenario. We only think we're acting out of free will.

There is a movement afoot currently asserting that there is no God, and people don't have souls- all of what we perceive to be spiritual, or related to free will, etc is no more than the interaction of chemical/electrical impulses in the brain, which has evolved purely naturally.

If I'm putting words in your mouth, Webswim, sorry.

---

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Tom,

Proselytism is one of the factors that pulled me away from religion. I respect the Buddhists for not being proselytists.

Nope vitus, you've got it right.

Nobody can know that god exists. They can believe, but they can't know. Faith is belief in the absence of knowledge.

Equally, nobody can know whether they have free will or not.

WebSwim, that may be true on a ridiculously technical level. . .It really doesn't wash. The only reasonable explanation for the universe is God.

You may as well ask, "How do I know you exist? . . .Wait, how do I know I exist?!" It's just about equally provable, and I don't see anyone claiming they don't believe in their own existence.

---

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

"Faith is belief in the absence of knowledge."

I don't know if you made that up yourself WebSwim, but it is very, very good. One sentence that expresses a complex concept. Excellent.

Religion has historically (in the overall history of the human species) been a method to answer questions for which there are no answers. The framework of religion provides these answers in a succint, packaged format. That is a source of great comfort, safety and inspiration for many people.

The concept that we are just here as a happenstance of physics, when we die we are just dead, and that things are much more random and meaningless than we are comfortable with believing- is terrifying and unsettling to a lot of humans. They need to feel there is something more, a "payday", a heaven- an order to things.

---

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

I do too, and it has lead me to do a survey of Buddhist literature- or at least "popish" Buddihist literature like D.T. Suzuki, Gia Fu Feng and Alan Watts.

---

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Hi Vitus:

(not that this is what Webswim means, but... :-))

Those notions are nothing new; they're the basic tenets of the naturalistic worldview: everything can be explained by chemical reactions, etc. that have evolved over time.

The assumption is that we are no different from a deer or one-celled organism that responds automatically to stimuli -- but it denies the complexities of human thought and reasoning that obviously transcend mere instinct. If we don't have free will, we are at the mercy of this instinct, and are just driven along by circumstances. If you stop and think, you realize this isn't the case.

"The only reasonable explanation for the universe is God."

That's nonsense. It is reasonable to believe that god exists. However, it is also reasonable to believe he doesn't.

You can't prove that god exists. No-one can. Neither can anyone prove that he doesn't. Therefore, to believe, or not believe are both equally resonable.

Thanks Tom.

"The concept that we are just here as a happenstance of physics, etc."

That's pretty much my position.

"The concept that we are just here as a happenstance of physics, when we die we are just dead, and that things are much more random and meaningless than we are comfortable with believing- is terrifying and unsettling to a lot of humans. They need to feel there is something more, a "payday", a heaven- an order to things. "

Actually, I think many people would (and do) find the idea rather appealing. It opens the door to a possibility of complete hedonism. If we are here as nothing more than a random happenstance of physics, morality itself has no real basis. We can do what we want! There is no "should"!

I'll admit that I've always respected Nietzsche for his intellectual honestly on this point. Course, it drove him mad, but hey. . .

The problem is that the "random happenstance" theory is that it's a purely scientific approach that itself violates one of the basic tenets of science, namely that every effect has a cause. We can go all the way back to the origins of the universe, and you'll tell me it started with the Big Bang, and I'll say, fine, but what caused the Big Bang?

---

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Hey vitus979,

Interesting. Actually, one night I had this rather ominous and frightening thought or fear: I don't really exist. If I died now (then) no one would know, no one would care. My cats would step over my body until their food ran out, then start meowing.

At 10:00 AM on Monday people would notice becasue their bike wouldn;t be ready, but that would be it. Once there got their bike, I would be forgotten.

So it occured to me- the only person that defines my existence is me. In abscence of someone else, it is just me that confirms I am alive and real. I read with interest the Alan Watts book "The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are" It proposes that we are all God or Gods, since our own existence is contingent on us.

Suddenly, a big light went off in my head- duy. If I choose to not exist- I sort of won't. But I choose to exist, get involved, see the world, try to contribute and do some good- then I do exist in my own eyes and the eyes of others.

All of a sudden it became pretty darn simple. No one had to walk on water, come back from the dead, carry stone tablets down from the mountains or become spontaneously pregnant.

My life and the lives of those around me is as good or bad as we make it.

---

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

There is more evidence of a mind behind the earth we live in, than not. You have to be in a fair amount of denial to say we live in the midst of a designer-less chaos (human behaviour notwithstanding -- it's that pesky free will again). Forget how it came about -- I'm talking about the day-to-day nuts 'n' bolts of the universe that we experience.

Well, sometimes this is a problem of language or vernacular.

I believe in God- but my image of God is not the generally popular one where there is a benevolant man sitting in the clouds dressed in white saying, "You- good guy- go to heaven, You- bad man your whole life- down to hell with you."

When people ask me my beliefs on God I say, "God is the universal order- makes the sun come up and go down, runs those type of operations...."

---

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Bud, I agree that fundamentally this is nothing new. However, there is a "new" movement in the scientific community that's taking what we're learning about the workings of the human brain and using it to argue that the whole of human experience, basically, is the result of chemistry.

AFAIK, it first became well known when Linus Pauling ( I think it was him ) published a book arguing that there is no human soul, and our perception/belief that there is one is only a natural result of complex brain functions. Ironically, he admitted that science will never be able to prove that, and said we should take it on faith.

---

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

"We can go all the way back to the origins of the universe, and you'll tell me it started with the Big Bang, and I'll say, fine, but what caused the Big Bang?"

You can tell me that god created the universe, and I can say that "who created god". You'll argue that god didn't need a creator, and I can retort "then why did the universe".

Time, matter & space are all interrelated, as proven by Einstein. Therefore, if space and matter don't exists, neither does time.

Now, I'll freely admit that science doesn't answer everything, but we're learning all the time. I'll take that over a catch-all solution anytime.

---

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

"There is more evidence of a mind behind the earth we live in, than not."

Such as? Give me an example that isn't explained by science.

One other thing: Earth has been around for 4.6 billion years, give or take, and the Universe for 13 billion or so. Man has been around for approx. 1 million, and organised religion for 3-4000. So, what has god been doing all that time? What is his relevance when the human species becomes extinct?

If you argue that he has been waiting for us to learn of his existence, then that's a VERY self-centred view of the world.

The problem you're faced with is that your argument rests on the idea that everything ultimately has a cause that can be proven and explained by science. And I'm saying that science is inherently not up to the task. Science can only study natural phenomena, and by science's own rules, all natural phenomena have causes, and beginnings.

I'm saying that science isn't capable of coming to the answer, because the answer is outside the scope of science.

---

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

"My life and the lives of those around me is as good or bad as we make it."

But generally, it's pretty bad, isn't it (I'm talking about all of us). This existential view is a pretty bleak one, leaving us completely untethered to anything eternal or transcendant -- it's all up to us (in that view) and yet we are by and large inclined to screw things up, aren't we?

The universe declares that it's all no accident, that there is a Desiger, and yet we flee from that because we realize that if there is a creator who ordered things, then we are accountable to how we respond to that.

It's clear, though, that we don't exist by our own choice. We were born into this world with a discrete soul (consciousness/conscience/self-awareness), with which we experience the world and through which, I would submit, we intuit a transcendant existence beyond ourselves.

Such as? Give me an example that isn't explained by science. Haven't I already? The ultimate beginnings of the universe.

One other thing: Earth has been around for 4.6 billion years, give or take, and the Universe for 13 billion or so. Man has been around for approx. 1 million, and organised religion for 3-4000. So, what has god been doing all that time? What is his relevance when the human species becomes extinct? What are you saying, that God only exists to serve us? That's a rather human-centric view of things.

---

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

"Interesting. Actually, one night I had this rather ominous and frightening thought or fear: I don't really exist. If I died now (then) no one would know, no one would care. My cats would step over my body until their food ran out, then start meowing.

So it occured to me- the only person that defines my existence is me. In abscence of someone else, it is just me that confirms I am alive and real. I read with interest the Alan Watts book "The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are" It proposes that we are all God or Gods, since our own existence is contingent on us.

Suddenly, a big light went off in my head- duy. If I choose to not exist- I sort of won't. But I choose to exist, get involved, see the world, try to contribute and do some good- then I do exist in my own eyes and the eyes of others. "

Um. . .I don't get it. How, exactly, can you choose not to exist? Could you then choose to exist again? Can you demonstrate?

If you died, you would still exist. We seem to agree that you're body would still exist, since your cats would have to step over it to eat, right?

---

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

"What are you saying, that God only exists to serve us? That's a rather human-centric view of things."

That's exactly what I'm not saying. I'm saying that God is a creation of man. Man thinks that God created the universe. His only relevance to man is ulitmately to decide who gets eternal life and who doesn't.

What I'm asking is, if god is not a construct of man, what does he/ has he been doing all this time?

Yeah, ahh, I hear what you and bub are saying. I have to think on this for a while. I'm going to take a shower. I do my best thinking in the shower.

---

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

I'm saying God has more to do than watch over man. If you assume for the moment that God does exist and is the Creator of the universe, I don't see how it matters how short a time man has existed for. There's more to Creation than humans.

---

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

"Science can only study natural phenomena, and by science's own rules, all natural phenomena have causes, and beginnings."

And the Big Bang is the beginning. Time, space and matter didn't exist before the Big Bang. Even assuming that there was a "nothing" which it sprang out of is meaningless.

Now, to argue that there wasn't a "cause" for the Big Bang, that therefore science is wrong, and that there then must be a supreme creator is absurd.

OK, so he does other stuff. Like what? He created the universe. Does he interfere with it, to keep it running the way he wants to. What is god's purpose? To decide who does/doesn't get eternal life?

"And the Big Bang is the beginning. Time, space and matter didn't exist before the Big Bang. Even assuming that there was a "nothing" which it sprang out of is meaningless.

Now, to argue that there wasn't a "cause" for the Big Bang, that therefore science is wrong, and that there then must be a supreme creator is absurd. "

Come again? Does science state that every effect has a cause, or doesn't it? Now you're saying that the Big Bang wasn't caused by anything? It happened all by itself? Am I reading you correctly?

---

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

"OK, so he does other stuff. Like what? He created the universe. Does he interfere with it, to keep it running the way he wants to. What is god's purpose? To decide who does/doesn't get eternal life?"

God keeps the universe running, period. If he wasn't actively "thinking" about it, it would blink out of existence.

God is. He isn't the One who needs a purpose.

---

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

"Does science state that every effect has a cause, or doesn't it? Now you're saying that the Big Bang wasn't caused by anything? It happened all by itself? Am I reading you correctly?"

Yes, you are reading me correctly. If nothing existed prior to the big bang, then nothing could have caused it. However, as I have stated previously, the big bang is right at the limits of current scientific knowledge, so if it appears to be contradictory, then so be it. I'm comfortable with that, as I never claimed there weren't holes/inconsistencies in scientific knowlwdge.

What I do claim is that I prefer to accept certain inconsistencies/unknowns rather than believe in something for which there is no evidence, and in my opinion, no necessity.

Religion has always been about explaining the unknown, or rather providing a non-threatening explanation of the unknown. I'm happy to accept that certain things are unknown at the moment, but that there is a framework in place by which we might come to know them. That framework is science.

Yes, you are reading me correctly. If nothing existed prior to the big bang, then nothing could have caused it. That is completely inconsistent with scientific principles.However, as I have stated previously, the big bang is right at the limits of current scientific knowledge, so if it appears to be contradictory, then so be it. I'm comfortable with that, as I never claimed there weren't holes/inconsistencies in scientific knowlwdge.

What I do claim is that I prefer to accept certain inconsistencies/unknowns rather than believe in something for which there is no evidence, and in my opinion, no necessity. You already are accepting something for which there is no evidence. You're accepting the idea that there is scientific evidence for the cause of the Big Bang, even though we haven't seen it yet. And even if science could come up with something that caused the Big Bang, the question would be "What caused that?"

I'm happy to accept that certain things are unknown at the moment, but that there is a framework in place by which we might come to know them. That framework is science. Unfortunately, that framework is wholly unsuited to providing the answer, ultimately, without violating its own precepts.

---

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

The premise of my mock religion, designed mainly as a pamphlet for door-to-door religion salespeople, is that everyone will ask about this religion from the happiness on their face.

That being said, when I was a member of an organised religion, the mandate was to tell the world about so-and-so. I felt that it was not a subject for polite conversation. I am certain that I am going to my former religion's version of hell for this, but it did seem contradictory to the religion's other teachings. I would evangelise only when one would ask me how I handle things so well. But then I studied religion at a more literal level and my faith changed considerably as a result.

Maybe I should not have responded to this question.

Religion is not strictly about explaining the unknown; it is, among other things, about revealing and connecting to the unseen. The unseen, in this case, being God -- although theists believe God is revealed AT LEAST by what is seen: the universe.

It's rather myopic to assert that science explains (or will explain) everything. Intangible things in our own lives such as thought, self-reflection, remorse, memory, all point to an unseen element to existence, an eternal Other, that aren't part of the meat 'n' molecules equation.

As science has shown, order cannot arise out of disorder. Science has never been able to demonstrate the opposite. The universe is rich with rhythm, balance, minute detail, harmony (human behaviour notwithstanding -- blast that free will!!) -- ALL of which point to a design, which in turn suggest a Designer.

If you walked along an empty beach and found a wristwatch in the sand, you wouldn't conclude that it was impossible to determine how it came to exist; you would see the hallmarks of design and conclude it was made for a purpose.

"You're accepting the idea that there is scientific evidence for the cause of the Big Bang, even though we haven't seen it yet."

Man creates gods for stuff he doesn't understand. The Egyptians had sun gods, Greeks had gods for love, war etc. and now we have "one god which answers everything".

I'm saying that I reject all that and believe in man's ability to provide an explanation which can be tested/proven. Sure, it's not perfect, but man's knowledge is expanding/improving and it is a lot less fanciful than accepting a mystical being which provides a catch-all answer for all our unknowns, tells us how to live, requires worship, promises punishment, etc.

I don't recall science saying that order cannot arise out of disorder? Science does say that entropy tends to increase in systems, but that doesn't mean that order cannot arise. It just means that over time, order will tend towards disorder, and since we will die, and the earth will be destroyed, then that still holds true.

---

_______________________________________________

well, ask an anthropologist, but. . .

this entire thread seems awfully ethnocentric. the assumption that relgions are necessarily in competition with others, or opposed to science, or etc etc - these are all assumptions rooted in an american catholic/protestant/etc worldview, and more broadly a judeo-christian/islamic view of religion.

let's not forget that a good billion hindus and buddhists (hinduism in particular being an older tradition than christianity, judaism or islam) comfortably tolerate difference and even cultivate it, adding deities from various systems into their own pantheon. further, there is an entire world of small-scale tribal religions which have no interest in mission work or conversion.

to paraphrase hamlet, there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamed of by your christianity.

---

____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

Did you catch the special a year or two ago regarding the scientific expose on when it will all end? The premise being the big bang and this big explosion and this stuff being flung out into the universe, creating the universe. The stuff being flung-out would one day start returning from whence it was once sent -- that gravity thing. Predicatbly, therefore, one could calculate the day it all comes back together. The trouble was in the evidence. The universe should have been collapsing long ago but the evidence is just the opposite. The universe contiues to expand, defying gravity, in fact it is not only expanding, but accelerating in its expansion. There is no model that explains it. Einstien had a premise that there was another unknown force in the universe at work. He later dismissed it as his greatest mistake. Seems he was right after all. You believe in an explanation that the world's greatest scientific mind could only concieve and later reject and all scientific evidence does not support and you call faith fanciful...? I'm not on your case, just trying to understand.

"You believe in an explanation that the world's greatest scientific mind could only concieve and later reject and all scientific evidence does not support and you call faith fanciful...?"

What I believe in is an explanation which can be tested and can be proven to be false or true. I appreciate that there is no Grand Unifying Theory, and may never be, but science has built up a body of knowledge which can be tested and which has been found to be generally correct. At the fringes of that body of knowledge things are fuzzy, because that is where new knowledge is being acquired, and the process of acquiring new knowledge is fraught with mistakes.

Religion is based on faith, which is based on lack of knowledge. It cannot be tested, and to even do so negates the very thing you are testing.

this is a fun and interesting thread...thanks to all that have contributed.

two or three small things to add to all of this. one is that one might construe the idea that things have to have a beginning and end as human-centric. that is, we are born and we die, therefore everything else must have a beginning and end. if you believe that it is possible for something to be infinite, then you no longer "need" to explain beginnings. i for one can't get my mind around the idea of infinity, but that's probably because i have such a wee little brain.

second, i am a practicing buddhist, and have been for a number of years. one fundamental precept of buddhism is that our basic nature is one of compassion. this is quite different from a concept of morality that derives from "shoulds", imposed by some higher being. i wonder...does christianity presuppose that our basic nature is not so good, and thus we need a big ol' cop to enforce us with a stick (hell) and a carrot (heaven). i don't mean to be flip...just using shorthand. is that what the adam and eve deal was all about?

finally, as a dyed-in-the-wool scientist, think it is important with all this talk about science to discern between science and scientism. science is what it is...hypothesis testing, tentative knowledge, all that rot. scientism is the belief that science is the only conceptual framework for assessing "truth" or "reality". there's a big difference between the two. not all scientists espouse scientism...in fact, many do their work and then go to church. or to the meditation cushion, in my case. science is grounded in skepticism, but the one thing many scientists refuse to be skeptical about is science itself--a form of blindness in its own right.

again, thanks every one for a fun dialog (multi-log?)...regards, toad

---

http://www.kenyawilds.com/faculty.html

Webswim:

It's erroneous to say that faith (religious faith, or at least Christian faith) is based on "lack of knowledge." On the contrary, faith is a certainty and hope in things that aren't seen. It's rooted in a reasonable expectation.

When I set out to follow a map to a city I've never been to, I have a reasonable expectation that I will get there. I've never seen the city, but there's strong evidence that it exists, and the map indicates it's there. I haven't scientifically tested that the city is there, and yet I have reason to have faith that the map is true.

Similarly, faith in God was and is based on compelling evidence, beginning with the universe itself with its indications of design, tremendous detail and consistency. Christianity assumes that God can be known, at least in a basic way, in the same way other things can be known. Whether someone sees the evidence or not is a different story.

Also, the assertion that a belief is valid only if it is scientifically testable is not itself scientifically testable, so it fails as an absolute standard.

Toadpalmer: Yes, Christianity starts at its very core with the assumption that human nature is corrupt on its own, without Divine intervention.

Faith by its very definition is a belief in something for which there is no material evidence.

The reason that you expect to get to a destination by following a map is because someone has been to that destination before and has published a route for getting there. Sure, you may not be 100% certain that the map is correct, yet the mere fact that it is in widespread circulation means that there is a large body of evidence that it is indeed accurate.

I understand why people claim there is a god, for all the reasons you have given. However, I also claim that just because there appears to be a design in the universe does not mean that there is a Designer. The Mandelbrot fractal is infinitely complex and beautiful, yet is produced in its entirety from a simple equation. Simple things can interact to produce a system with wonderfully detailed and complex behaviour without the need for someone to oversee the whole thing.

I know. I hear your point and I was being a dick. Sorry. I really am not down on the faithful. I am the dark duck on all sides of my family and friends. I really do love christians, especaily mormons. I have great times with them.

It's just some christians just don't know when to quit. After about 80 times if I say no dice then I should be respected for that. It is my etrenal soul and there is a point when just letting me be me has to happen.

---

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

Hey Dave! Good to see a Smithite on the board. Like I have said before I was raised and live in a very strong Mormon family and community. Even though I am not a believer I will go to my grave defending the church. I am accepted for who I am and even though the elders and home teachers still make thier regular callings I love thier company.

Ever seen The RM or The Single Ward? Man you have not laughed until you have seen these. Two of the best movies I have ever seen.

---

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

"He flooded the world, Its called Genesis, the book of beginnings. Adam and Eve, that did not work. Tower of Babel, whoops. The Flood, do over. Let's start with one guy, Abram, and build a nation that will get it. It ain't happenen. This time its personal. Jesus."




I honetly mean no offense but God seems really imperfect. My kids fall to the way side I ain't about to knock them off and start over. I just don't get why the passion excuses whole sale slaughter.

---

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

"Haven't I already? The ultimate beginnings of the universe. "

No one has explained the beginning in the way yo ulike. Science has a theory on the starting point. Just because a unified theory has not been put out does not automaticly mean god.


"What are you saying, that God only exists to serve us? That's a rather human-centric view of things. "

That's what I keep being told.

---

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

"Know the truth and the truth will set you free"

A belief system should actually make a difference in one's life every day. If your beliefs (even if you choose to not believe in something) aren't making a difference in your every day life, what's the point?

I agree with those that think religion was invented by man, for man's purposes. Jesus had a bad taste of religion, as run by man: remember the clearing of the temple...sounded like he was in a fit of anger about it all.

Just as Hitler realized the way to have more adult Nazis was to indoctinate the children into Nazi-hood, religions try and do the same thing. This will offend many people, but, that's why I think the Leaders of Catholicism have been against birth control..."how can we get more Catholics..I know, let's breed more Catholics!" I know the Bible says; be fruitful, go forth and multiply...but, we've multiplied akin to a bacterial infection covering all of the earth. Enough, already.

I think ideas many people ascribe to being "Christian" weren't taught by Christ at all. What does Jesus actually say? Jesus says "No man cometh to the Father but by me." Nowhere can I find where Jesus is reported to say "you have to ask Me for forgiveness".

For all I know, the Muslim extremists that flew those planes into the World Trade Towers may be in heaven right now...exactly what happens when their souls meet with Jesus at the "decision time" is up to Jesus. I'm not going to say I know with certainty what Jesus/God is going to decide about someone's eternal existence. I don't care if it seems justifiable in my human mind that God would send those nuts to eternal damnation...there's a different set of people thinking those guys now have 26 virgins at their "disposal". I think they are nuts. It sounds like a short-sighted patriarchal viewpoint that treats women as property...and, once these martyrs have sex with each of the 26 virgins...then what? They're no longer virgins...do the martyrs just get nagged for the rest of eternity by them? Hmmm...maybe that IS a good plan after all! Anyway, I don't think I can determine what Jesus is going to do with them, that would be like saying I know what God is thinking...that seems blasphemous to me.

However, I do believe Jesus is who he says he was...the Son of God. I believe that because it actually has affected my life and the way I act, think, and relate to others. On the other hand, I don't believe the Bible was written by God through the hands of men...I think humans were attempting to write things down that they sincerely believed. But, I think much of the Old Testament was simply men trying to explain things about life, such as Creation (which is accurate according to our understanding of science if you replace the word "day" with "period of time" as written in the original language) and sometimes, to excuse their behaviors. At the very least, trying to capture the essence of God in any language that can be written would fall far short of what God really is. I think many of ideas about God are found "between the lines" in many cases.

Did God suddenly change His idea about Polygamy and move to Monogamy? Or, did man change his ideas about it? I don't remember seeing that addressed as such in the Bible. Was the Old Testament God a war-mongerer that suddenly switched to Love in the New Testament? I don't think that's what happened, but, I do think that war may not be God's worst enemy...after all, as someone said: there are no atheists in a foxhole. Maybe God isn't as anti-war as many of us think. I simply don't claim to know what God is thinking about all of this.

This stuff scares the wits out of my poor mother, who has to have a nice, safe set of rules and regulations to follow in order to assure her that she's "going to Heaven". However, she was terrified when she thought she was dying of cancer. I didn't understand that terror...isn't death on earth with Eternity spent with God the ultimate goal? I, on the other hand, am very much at peace believing the statement when Jesus said, "No man goes to the Father, but through Me." It takes the Ultimate decision out of my hands, and puts it in God's hands, and that is where I think it belongs.

Does this free me to do anything I want in my life, to behave in any manner I choose and not have to worry about the Eternal Question? No. To the best of my ability, I should constantly strive to behave as if my every thought is known by the One that is responsible for my Ultimate place in Eternity...not like Big Brother with Threatened Punishment and Damnation, but more like a steering current to help keep me improving the way I interact with people, and even with God. Sort of like sports training, without an off-season.

Does this end with me able to do the spiritual equivalent of a 7 hour Ironman Hawaii? Nah, it just means I'll be able to do closer to the spiritual equivalent of whatever I am capable of, if I were to have perfectly trained every day I was a human.

---

Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)

We should publish this thread as a book. Lots of interesting insights.

---

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

I honetly mean no offense but God seems really imperfect. My kids fall to the way side I ain't about to knock them off and start over. I just don't get why the passion excuses whole sale slaughter.


I agree with you. In fact God as parent drives much of my theology. God is doing all that God can do. That gives me a limited God in deployed power but preserves God's justice and mercy, God's character. The charge can be made my theology is driven by a need to have God be morally pure. I think this is mostly true. I only know that through all the suffering and hardship that has rolled into our lives the clear connecting experience through all of it has been, "it's going to be ok." "OK" may mean death and disease but there has been a clear experience of God's empowering prescence in the midst of the hardship.

The progrssive theologians take what we have, accept it, and conclude that God was/is very much like a parent who had some very rebellious kids and did not handle it well at first. They have a morally less than perfect God in the beginning. I think Genesis supports that idea to some degree and we do get God repenting on occassion -- word meaning a change of mind, a change in direction. I am not aware that passion does excuse wholesale slaughter. If God actually told Saul to kill them all... that is totally incongruent with a God who dictated thou shall not. Which is why I opt to believe I think Saul percieved he heard God but it was not God he heard.

We're in this together. Keep searching.

I couldn't agree more....and civilly at that!

Thanks to Vitus for taking the time to address my comments, thanks to everyone else who has taken the time to "respond" and rarely condemn (for what seems to be one of the first times on a religion thread here). Been some great comments here.

I think the Bible or The Book of Mormon or the Koran or the Torah or the whatever are books....written by man with or without divine intervention, they are still written by man and subject to his fancy and interpretation of what was going on in his world at the time they were written. It's going to be a tough sell to convince me that only one of these sets of enlightened/divinely-guided individuals throughout the entire course of recorded history was actually correct. Maybe, just maybe, everyone has something to offer... just like this thread. I know I really enjoy reading this stuff and incorporating the things that make sense into my life. I stress, not the things that I necessarily like, but the things that make sense (i.e. I'd love to do some things that might make me more comfortable "They won't know I didn't actually work those hours" , but don't because it is, in my view, wrong). Maybe that's what religion should be? Not such exclusive "rights" to the ticket to heaven? Would God make his world so that some huge majority of his creations are not even exposed to the "correct" way to heaven? Just use that majority to provide a bunch of conversion opportunities to those few that were born into the "right" place geographically?

I think there is an order to things, I believe there is a God/Great Spirit with his/her/it's hand firmly on the pulse of the universe. BUUUT, I do not believe that man (in the general sense) is at a place in his development that he can fully grasp that and elucidate it for the rest of the world. I think we're constantly evolving as a spiritual culture (long-term sense, so don't flame me for the last however many years that may not fit that mold)

I don't know that my way is the right way. I don't know if there is only one right way (although I don't currently believe that would seem very just). But I do know I'm not willing to condemn (or worse, judge/kill/jail/eradicate, etc.) someone because we are different.

Thanks again guys and one again...PEACE!

Faith is not belief without knowledge.

Faith by definition is Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.

Evidence points to a direction and leads you down the road, but doesn't take you all the way. Faith is what is required to reach the end of the road. Faith doesn't rest on evidence ... that doesn't mean evidence is not present.

You can't have faith in something that you don't believe to be true ... that is hope. Hope and faith are not the same thing. Be careful when coming up with your own definitions for already established words.

----------------------------------------

You have to look at 4 things:

1. Jesus lived and performed miracles. This is recorded in non-Biblical history. You can, as the Jews did, and question Jesus' source of power, but not whether or not he performed miracles.

2. Jesus was the Son of God, as he claimed. When looking at the miracles, the message, the life, etc .... ther eis more evidence for than against ... especially concerning #4 (below)

3. Jesus died on the cross. Again, it's recorded in history books that are not the Bible, by pepole that would prefer they never even heard of Jesus.

4. Jesus rose from the dead. Again, the empty tomb is not debated by anyone ... Romans, jews, etc all admit the tomb was empty. You have to decide whether the body was stlen, whether the guards fell asleep, or whether Christ rose from the dead and appeared to hundreds of people as the Bible says.

There is evidence from non-Biblical texts. If you acknowledge the possibility of te above 4 things ... then you need to do some research and decide if the above is probable when compared to the alternative explanantions.

Gotta go. Later. RyanB.

---

=======================
-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

I disagree that faith is a "blind leap in the dark," or based on a lack of knowledge. Faith is a positive response to God's activity. Faith requires reason, a rational decision, based on available evidence. We probably disagree on the quality of that evidence. If Jesus were on trial would there be enough evidence to convict him as God? By his words, deeds, evidence of the resurrection -- multiple appearances involving hundreds of persons, and reflected in the lives that followed him I say yes. But if I did not have here and now personally tested evidence I doubt I would be a follower. Can you test faith, you better believe it, and it has been done hundreds of times. How about a double blind study involving prayer? Would that pass muster as a scientific test?

"Does this free me to do anything I want in my life, to behave in any manner I choose and not have to worry about the Eternal Question? No. To the best of my ability, I should constantly strive to behave as if my every thought is known by the One that is responsible for my Ultimate place in Eternity...not like Big Brother with Threatened Punishment and Damnation, but more like a steering current to help keep me improving the way I interact with people, and even with God. Sort of like sports training, without an off-season."

Well said. I think IM could be a nice substitute for the foxhole. Has anyone ever done an IM and not talked to Jesus, obviously some not on friendly terms : )!

"1. Jesus lived and performed miracles. This is recorded in non-Biblical history. You can, as the Jews did, and question Jesus' source of power, but not whether or not he performed miracles. "

I can question whether or not he performed miracles. For as long as there have been thinking people there have been people who have pulled the wool over others eyes. We see it here in the US with the faith healers, in asia with physic surgery, south america with the tribal shamens. There is no proof that Jesus did anything with the power of a god.

"2. Jesus was the Son of God, as he claimed. When looking at the miracles, the message, the life, etc .... ther eis more evidence for than against ... especially concerning #4 (below) "

What proof? he miracles are not proovable, the message is a message you need prooof beyond words, he was a leder of people tha makes him the son of god?, Where is the provable evidence?,


"3. Jesus died on the cross. Again, it's recorded in history books that are not the Bible, by pepole that would prefer they never even heard of Jesus. "

Thousands of peoplehave died on crosses. Re they sons and daughters of god?



"4. Jesus rose from the dead. Again, the empty tomb is not debated by anyone ... Romans, jews, etc all admit the tomb was empty. You have to decide whether the body was stlen, whether the guards fell asleep, or whether Christ rose from the dead and appeared to hundreds of people as the Bible says."

Again you can't prove he rose from the dead. It is beyond logical that his followers stole his body. PROOF needs PROOF. Mass visions are all over history. Zesus apreaded to thousands of people so does that make Zeus real or was that a story from history?

History is a series of lies we all agree apon.

---

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

Fascinating thread! I've enjoyed reading it...

My views parallel that of Webswim, as well as some of Tom D's, especially when it comes to death. Humans cannot fathom our own inexistance, just being wormfood. Wouldn't it be wonderful to spend all of eternity in paradise with our loved ones? It is much more reasurring than if this were our only shot.

I was raised a Christian, and have done much research into christianity as an adult. As a result, I am not religious, but I have a spiritual side. I believe that though we are all individuals, we are all a part of some greater whole, which is the earth and the universe. My life/existence is no more important than the dolphin in the ocean, or the worms in the ground. Yes, I am sentient, but I believe that we end up all in the same place. That being said, I love my Christian friends and all of the good that they do in the world. JC was a cool dude. But in my opinion others have been equally miraculous, Ghandi being the first to come to mind. Imagine if he lived in a time when people knew little of science, written language was scarce, and communities were separated by months of travel. Not to mention a more superstitious society. As it was, there is written, photographic and filmed evidence for all that he accomplished, so we know what happened. Imagine if he existed in a time when such tools were not available. It would greatly alter how he might be percieved by the world. It is true that the bible is a primary source of written literature, and has maintained general content integrity, but that can be argued as well... Have you ever played the "telephone" game?

Regarding "Faith": here is Webster's definition, and yes, Webswim IS correct:

Etymology: Middle English feith, from Old French feid, foi, from Latin fides; akin to Latin fidere to trust -- more at BIDE
1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : LOYALTY b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions
2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust
3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs



Finally, I would like to ask - how many women have contributed to this thread?

No one has explained the beginning in the way yo ulike. Science has a theory on the starting point. No, it doesn't. Or at least it doesn't have a theory on the beginning of the universe that's consistent with its own principles. And it never can.

Thanks to whoever it was who pointed out the difference between science and scientism. For the record, there is no conflict between real science and religion. The problem only arises when science attempts to overreach and make claims about something about which it has no knowledge. Anyone want to assert that science can prove chocolate tastes better than vanilla?

Just because a unified theory has not been put out does not automaticly mean god. One thing at a time, Tibbs. ;) First, let's establish that science cannot, by definition, prove the existence of an original cause of the universe that itself had no cause. Then we'll move on from there.

---

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Tom, did you really intend this to be a great philosophical argument? Run out of Bond movies? I was raised in a Unitarian church, studied eastern Religion in college, Budhism is fascinating to me. I was baptized in a Methodist church at the age of 27 after my (then) wife and in laws convinced me. After she walked out on me, I walked out on organized religion. Some would say it is all about control and power, I tend toward a greater spiritual power, however logically, it would seem that most of us are relying on faith to carry us through. How else to explain all of the lying, cheating, killing around us on a daily basis? Before anyone asks, Unitarianism is usually described as a humanist religion, but I think the best explanation I've ever heard is this -given a choice between going to heaven and going to a discussion about heaven, the Unitarian will choose the discussion every time.

---

--------------------------------------------------------------------

"this entire thread seems awfully ethnocentric. the assumption that relgions are necessarily in competition with others, or opposed to science, or etc etc - these are all assumptions rooted in an american catholic/protestant/etc worldview, and more broadly a judeo-christian/islamic view of religion.

let's not forget that a good billion hindus and buddhists (hinduism in particular being an older tradition than christianity, judaism or islam) comfortably tolerate difference and even cultivate it, adding deities from various systems into their own pantheon. further, there is an entire world of small-scale tribal religions which have no interest in mission work or conversion. "

Can we stipulate to the fact that there is such a thing as objective truth? If not, there's not really much point in discussing anything at all. If we can, then we have to come to the conclusion that at least some of the religions are, in fact, wrong. ( Webswim would argue that they're all wrong, since none of them conform to reality. ) To say all religions are equally valid is necessarily to deny that those religions are true, or accurately reflect reality.

---

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Uh-huh. So, explain this:

3 Then God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.

4 God saw how good the light was. God then separated the light from the darkness.

5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." Thus evening came, and morning followed - the first day

...

14 Then God said: "Let there be lights in the dome of the sky, to separate day from night. Let them mark the fixed times, the days and the years,

15 and serve as luminaries in the dome of the sky, to shed light upon the earth." And so it happened:

16 God made the two great lights, the greater one to govern the day, and the lesser one to govern the night; and he made the stars.

17 God set them in the dome of the sky, to shed light upon the earth,

18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. God saw how good it was.

19 Evening came, and morning followed - the fourth day.



So, on the first day, God creates light and day/night. On the fourth day, God creates the Sun and the stars. Where did the light come from, and what caused the day and night without a sun? Also, the plants were created on the third day, prior to the creation of the Sun. How'd they survive during this "period of time"?

Please, don't confuse Genesis with science.

---

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

Triplethreat,

You wrote

4. "Jesus rose from the dead. Again, the empty tomb is not debated by anyone ... Romans, jews, etc all admit the tomb was empty. You have to decide whether the body was stlen, whether the guards fell asleep, or whether Christ rose from the dead and appeared to hundreds of people as the Bible says."

One other very powerful case for Christianity is that all of Jesus' disciples died as martyrs except one (old age) and would not denounce Christ's name, had they denied him they could have lived. Peter one of Chris's followers denied him three times when he was living before he was crucified, although after the crucifixion when they saw him again it was very powerful. Do people think all these men would have gone to the geeatine if Christ would have just died on the cross and did not Rise Again.

---

"You're guaranteed to miss 100% of the shots you never take" - Wayne Gretzky

I agree with those that think religion was invented by man, for man's purposes. Jesus had a bad taste of religion, as run by man: remember the clearing of the temple...sounded like he was in a fit of anger about it all. Well, Jesus was angry with those who abused religion for profit. That has absolutely no bearing on the question of whether or not religion was invented by man. It's a non sequitor.

Just as Hitler realized the way to have more adult Nazis was to indoctinate the children into Nazi-hood, religions try and do the same thing. This will offend many people, but, that's why I think the Leaders of Catholicism have been against birth control..."how can we get more Catholics..I know, let's breed more Catholics!" I know the Bible says; be fruitful, go forth and multiply...but, we've multiplied akin to a bacterial infection covering all of the earth. Enough, already. That's exactly why the Church is against birth control. It thwarts God's plan to create souls. And no offense meant, but what kind of worldview is it that considers humanity an infection?

---

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

So you say you are a non-believer, but you believe in Hell?

If you believe there is a place that you will go when you die where you will suffer for eternity. ( and I'm not talking about hill repeats), then why is it difficult to believe in Heaven.

I'm trying not to preach, but I feel a need to respond when someone freely says "i'm going to hell." I don't want to see anyone go to hell without the opportunity to see the other side.

People crash airplanes full of innocent people into buildings under the direction of one man, who is presumably still living.

1. Jesus' miracles were recorded by his enemies (Jewish historian Josephus ... regarded as accurate by historical scholars). Why would they give a man they sought to discredit the power to do amazing things? They challenged the source of his power. No one present at the time came out and said "Jesus did not do the miracles the disciples claim he does" ... they questioned the source of his power. Sure, you can question it ... but based on what evidence?

2. See #1 for evidence of miracles. Miracles were also performed in front of large gorups of people. Where are the texts that say "Jesus didn't do these things". Nobody says that (that was there)

3. Simple. In order to achieve the possibility of resurrection, you must first believe Jesus was dead on the cross (not asleep, not playing dead, etc). 1 of the 4 does not make one Christ, 4 of 4 does. I thought it was obvious what I was getting at.

4. I never said you could prove he rose from the dead, just as you can't prove that he didn't. All I said is that the tomb was empty. You have to examine the evidence for resurrection and compare it against the evidence against the guards being bribed, falling asleep, body being stolen, incorrectly marked grave, etc. IMO, this is a no-brainer. When looking at the evidence (and what happened i history following this) for each, resurrection is the most probable explanantion.

There is evidence. There is not 100% proof. If you choose to believe or not, you are making a decision based on evidence. You are making a dcision based on Faith b/c it is not 100% provable one way or the other. IMO, the evidence is over-whelming in Christ's Favor. The evidence is there, whether one acknowledges it or not. Not acknowledging the evidence does not make it disappear. Look at the evidence as if you were a juror.

Again, I suggest that all skeptics read the book The Case for Christ. Years and years of study/debate summarized in 270 pages. If you've ever wanted to put Jesus and the Gospels on Trial, and ask the toughest questions skeptics have ever asked ... this book is for you. I thin you'll find their are probable explanations and answers for those questions. When the evidence stacks up, you'll need to make a choice to believe or not.

Check out: www.christiananswers.net and http://www.answersingenesis.org

We are not asking unique questions or original doubts. These ideas have been covered for hundreds f years. The evidence for and against is there for critiqueing.

Sorry for the length. Some things require a little explanantion.

---

=======================
-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

I don't mean to be rude, but..........that argument will be won someday. This is why myself and the other Christians are attempting to share the gospel that we believe in.

No, it does'nt all make sense, it's not suppose to. That's where faith comes in. I have a lot of questions that I can't wait to ask of Christ when I enter his kingdom. The harder you try to figure it out, the more confusing it gets.

We are only human and can have no comprehension of Gods grand picture.

So, on the first day, God creates light and day/night. On the fourth day, God creates the Sun and the stars.

Not that I explain God by Science, but scientists say that before there was anything there was radiation. Radiation is light.

Creation is the subject I am studying right now. check out www.answersingenesis.com for a variety of topics rlating to this.

---------------------------------------

To me the most interesting evidence for resurrection is Paul, the persecutor of Christians turned into the leader of the earliest Christian church. He saw something that changed his life 180-degrees. The other is James, the brother of Jesus. Doubter his whole life, convinced by the appearance of a resurrected Jesus.

The Roman historical representation of Christians that would rather die than renounce Jesus tells us that many of them saw something they could just not deny.

---

=======================
-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

Couple more thoughts.

I think it's interesting that there are, in the main, two objections to organized religion: On one hand, some people feel that it's too harsh and judgemental, and on the other hand, some people feel that religion was invented as a sort of security blanket to comfort man in a confusing world.

Remember the old cliche about "if a thousand monkeys typed for a thousand years, one of the would turn out the complete works of William Shakespeare." ? Seems like we're in a position to prove or disprove this theory, what with all these high speed computers. Anybody know anything about it? ( I'm just curious, I'm not trying to use it to prove the underpinnings of the universe)

---

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

"I think it's interesting that there are, in the main, two objections to organized religion: On one hand, some people feel that it's too harsh and judgemental, and on the other hand, some people feel that religion was invented as a sort of security blanket to comfort man in a confusing world."

1. I think some people feel threatend by religion because man has a sinful nature, and they dont want to see the truth. They dont want to be told they can not do something and they dont want to give up something in their lives.

2. As far as religion being a security blanket to comfort man in a confusing world, what is wrong with that. I can use all the security and comfort out there, let's face it life can be rough sometimes.

---

"You're guaranteed to miss 100% of the shots you never take" - Wayne Gretzky

I'll put this in a simple way: If you are right and we are just here taking up space with no purpose or future then I, as a believer really have nothing to lose in the end. However, if Christians are right then you, and all non beleivers have a whole lot to lose......for eternity. So, what if it is true? Is it worth the risk? That's why Christians want to spread the gospel and the love of Christ, because we have faith and belief that it is true.

My take on religion:

Imagine early man sitting in the dark staring out into the cosmos and being scared witless by the void and his own mortality. If you've ever been in the middle of the desert at night you know how awe inspring the night sky can be and how small and insignnificant it makes you feel. Religion is born to help him deal with all of this and to help explain the magic" in things like stroms, fire, etc.

I happen to be a pagan for lack of a better term. I believe that god lives in all of us and in the world around us. As the circle of life spins we return to the ground and are reborn in the natural world. If you examine all religions this is a common theme. read Joseph Campbell's works for a good insight.

I have no use for organized religion because, to me, it is all about money and power. In my view the guys that originally wrote "be fruitful and multiply" and "go forth and convert the heathens" were ultimately looking to expand their power base for survival. I don't doubt that most of them really believed the message. Not much different than colonialism or corporate expansion. To answer the original question htis is why they want to convert you (although I am sure the minions going door to door really believe thesales pitch)

Enough of my rambling.....time to go search out the Ostara bunny and his eggs (speaking of the resurection myth)

1. I think some people feel threatend by religion because man has a sinful nature, and they dont want to see the truth. They dont want to be told they can not do something and they dont want to give up something in their lives. Doubtlessly true for some people.

2. As far as religion being a security blanket to comfort man in a confusing world, what is wrong with that. I can use all the security and comfort out there, let's face it life can be rough sometimes. Well, I take great comfort in religion, too. But I don't believe in it because it's comforting, I believe in it because it's true. There's a difference. And I wouldn't want to believe in something that wasn't true just because it made me feel better.

---

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

So if we all 'evolved' from apes, how come I can still go to the zoo and see monkeys and apes? Why have they not evolved?

jaj,

I have seen it phased that way before, and agree. Doesn't that type of "bet" have a name or a descriptive clause. I certainly have "faith" in the latter and wouldn't risk putting my "bet" on the former - that's a good way of putting it.

thanks,

---

David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

2. As far as religion being a security blanket to comfort man in a confusing world, what is wrong with that. I can use all the security and comfort out there, let's face it life can be rough sometimes. Well, I take great comfort in religion, too. But I don't believe in it because it's comforting, I believe in it because it's true. There's a difference. And I wouldn't want to believe in something that wasn't true just because it made me feel better.


I AGREE

---

"You're guaranteed to miss 100% of the shots you never take" - Wayne Gretzky

Amen Brother. It is true and that's the reason to believe! God is real, Jesus, the son of God, did walk the earth and did die on the cross for our sins. All we have to do is confess our sin and accept him as our Lord and savior.

I attempt to live my life in a way that is pleasing Jesus and reflects his life. Not for brownie points or to 'help' me into heaven, but because that is what jesus wants me to do. But, at times I fail and fail miserably. Jesus also expects that. And when I confess that to him he is willing to wash it away. After all, he is the only perfect person to walk our earth. Praise God!

> So you say you are a non-believer, but you believe in Hell?

No, actually I personally don't.

> I don't want to see anyone go to hell without the opportunity to see the other side.

Very gracious of you - and like TomD, I do mean that.

My point was simply that according to the convictions (no pun intended) of many folks (like my in-laws for example), I am going to Hell. Since I know a lot of different folks who have very different beliefs, but who do find my past life or current actions sinful, I assume I am going to multiple Hells. (Hill repeats indeed!)

However, according to my own convictions, I am going into an inferno - but that'll be for making ashes to scatter over the Uintah mountains of Utah.

-Zo

I should add, if anyone on here wants more info on how to accept Christ or has questions please feel free to contact me or any of the other Christians on this site or that you know.

"However, according to my own convictions, I am going into an inferno - but that'll be for making ashes to scatter over the Uintah mountains of Utah."



That will only be your body bro, something to think about.....

---

"You're guaranteed to miss 100% of the shots you never take" - Wayne Gretzky

"Scientists" say that before there was *anything* there was radiation? Huh.

And radiation is not light; rather, (visible) light is radiation of a particular wavelength. And something has to emit that radiation. "Scientists" usually think that night and day are caused by the rotation of the Earth blocking the light from our Sun. That was a rather weak reply, I'm afraid.

Hate to bring this up as a comparison, but a lot of followers of Jim Jones chose to die rather than to renounce him. Choosing death is not very good evidence of the correctness of your beliefs.

---

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

Where do the doggies go? Do dogs and fish and birds and bees go to heaven? I have heard some people say that they do not have souls! On this point I would seriously beg to differ.

Ya, I was born and bred Mormon in SLC. Did the whole BYU shindig, and some how ended up in Oregon. I haven't seen either of those flicks, but my fam back in SLC own both DVD's and I plan on watching both next time I'm in town. Out of curiosity, where dost thou hail from?

Are you serious? Are you so ignorant of evolution as to ask that question? Man did not evolve from the current apes; man and apes both evolved (separately) from a common ancestor. The break happened somewhere between 5 and 10 million years ago. The great apes (gorilla, chimpanzee, etc.) as they are today probably didn't exist back then; they, too, evolved into their current forms.

Sheesh.

Ken Lehner

---

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

"Hate to bring this up as a comparison, but a lot of followers of Jim Jones chose to die rather than to renounce him. Choosing death is not very good evidence of the correctness of your beliefs. "



Did thousands of people see Jim Jones, or for that matter Buddha, Gandhi, Mohamed, walking around after they died.

---

"You're guaranteed to miss 100% of the shots you never take" - Wayne Gretzky

Not all religions do this, by the way.

I think for some religions (like Mormons) it is part of their "mission" to bring people to Christ. The ones that I have met have always been respectful of other points of view and they typically will not hound you.

For others, like some of the non-denominational churches around here - I believe it's all about MONEY. The congragation gets a cult-like mentality that if you don't believe exactly what THEY believe (read - attend their church and give them money), that you will go to hell. Kind of stupid, huh?

Show me PHOTOGRAPHS, FILM FOOTAGE, and reliable documentation that he actually ROSE from the DEAD and that will be evidence that it happened.

Anthropologist Mike can confirm this: Many cultures leave their dead unburied for 48 hours after the "death". Why? Because of too many instances when they have buried people alive. I'm not saying that Jesus was not ressurected, but for a scientist, there is the POSSIBILITY that he was buried alive. Medicine was not then what it is now. Did you ever read "Into thin air"? They left one man on the mountain, assuming he was dead. He walked 2km back to camp the next day, and has survived the ordeal.

I agree that regardless of what really happened, Jesus was/is amazing.

<<Where do the doggies go? Do dogs and fish and birds and bees go to heaven? I have heard some people say that they do not have souls! On this point I would seriously beg to differ.>>

If my three dogs, Bo, Chessie and Mikey are not waiting for me in Heaven, then I'm not going...

Brett

I find it weird looking at some of the *evidence* people use to *disprove* Christianity or some of the ideas that people use to not get involved or even do any research. Yet, they don't let helium balloons or repelling magnets disprove the Law of gravity. Why one standard in one case, and another in a different case?

Research and see if your ideas and those similar to yours have stood up to scrutiny of experts. See how much (or how little) evidence there is for your ideas.

The idea of "wishing it were true" is fallable. It would be nice if Santa Claus were true. A really nice guy that brings toys to good boys and girls, but not the bad ones. However, we look at the evidence for and against Santa Claus, and conclude that the probability that Santa Claus is real is not very good ... even though it would be very comforting to believe so. We can't have faith in something we don't believe to be true.

People have been studying this subject for centuries. The leg work is pretty much done for you. All you have to do is list the evidence for and against and make an informed decision of which direction the evidence suggests is most probable. whatever decision you will make will require some faith ... waiting around for 100% proof won't do you any good.

Not being convinced is not the same thing as "won't be convinced". An open mind is the only requirement. Open mind simply means "realization of possibility". In other words, you acknowledge that it "might be possible".

---

=======================
-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

"Are you serious? Are you so ignorant of evolution as to ask that question? Man did not evolve from the current apes; man and apes both evolved (separately) from a common ancestor. The break happened somewhere between 5 and 10 million years ago. The great apes (gorilla, chimpanzee, etc.) as they are today probably didn't exist back then; they, too, evolved into their current forms.


Sheesh. "

Sheesh, yourself. There is precisely zero scientific evidence to prove the theory of macro-evolution(one species evolving into a completely new species). There are lots of examples of micro-evolution(one group of a species evolving into a seperate sub-species). Unless I'm forgetting my high school biology, the real test of whether or not two animals are of the same species is whether or not they produce fertile offspring. This would seem to be a rather strong argument against the theory of evolution as it's so often preached.

This is the beef I have with those who refuse to believe in religion because it can't be proven scientifically. There own beliefs can't be proven scientifically. They've looked at the available evidence and inferred evolution. Ultimately, it's something they take on faith. "OK, it can't be proven, but it seems reasonable to believe given what we know." And yet they won't admit that the very same argument can be made to posit the existence of God.

---

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Hi Ken,

And radiation is not light; rather, (visible) light is radiation of a particular wavelength. And something has to emit that radiation. "Scientists" usually think that night and day are caused by the rotation of the Earth blocking the light from our Sun. That was a rather weak reply, I'm afraid.

This was presented to me the other day ... "I’m saying the very first thing we know to have existed is radiation, or possibly for lack of a better word, light. This has been supported empirically by COBE and COBE II (i.e. cosmic background radiation). Our knowledge of physics tends to break down before the Plank time, so it’s hard for science to do anything but speculate about what occurred before that time. (Hawkings has a theory beyond the scope here.)"

I brought it up because it is strange that Moses mentioned that there was light (i.e. a type of radiation) before there was the sun and moon. Okay, there was illumination, an energy source, someting that may be containing photons, etc. Bust my chops on the simplification of the details if you wish (how else would Moses describe radiation?), but is there evidence to suggest was is written above (in quotes) is incorrect. I mentioned it as a possible explanantion of how/why Moses would have written there was a "light source" (another simplification) before there was the sun and moon (no way he could have have had any understanding of this). That seems like something strange for someone that far back to write doesn't it?

You mention the revolution of the Earth being the source of night/day ... I'm referring to what scientists think was there before Earth (or sun) was there. we're not discussing the same things.

---

=======================
-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

"as they are today probably didn't exist back then."

Where is your proof, or are you relying on what someone else told you? I would call that faith.

Macro evolution has no solid proof or evidence, it is only a theory. Hmm, sounds familiar.

Sorry you wont make me a believer here...



I for one dont believe we came out of the water as a paramecium or a omeba. Look how much different we are from the animals, look how different earth is from any other plantet. Do you think these things came about from the BIG BANG? We are all brothers and sisters of God, some people will never see this and it is too bad, not because they are going to HELL, just because they will never have true happiness.

---

"You're guaranteed to miss 100% of the shots you never take" - Wayne Gretzky

Uh, I think we agree on evolution, flytri. Maybe my post wasn't clear enough. . . ?

---

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

I have one question that I want to pose here. If Jesus/God is loving and merciful, then do you really believe he would cast his truly "bad" children's souls in to hell to burn for all of eternity? That sounds awefully mean to me. Or, is it more likely that their soul's simply cease to exist? I can't remember where I saw or heard this, but it was from a priest who basically said the idea of "hell" isn't even in the bible, and that it's something man came up with to scare people in to converting to christianity.

I was brought up Catholic/Methodist and yet I'm not sure where I stand as far as religion goes. There's a lot that I like about it, but a lot of questions and concerns as well.

I'm pretty sure all dogs go to heaven. Cats, um, that's another issue. No seriously, if you want your dogs or anything else when you get there, I would say they'll be there.

But enough already, the watch implies the watchmaker, and Jesus saves. Now c'mon all you unbelievers, confess! Don't make me bring out the comfy chair and soft cushions!

I pray that this discussion may have planted a seed of faith in some or a seed of doubt in the unbelief, or at least didn't poison the water and close any minds toward someone who may approach you in the future that can do this evangelism thing better than we.

God Bless.

Evolutionists need to write down the steps (seriously) that have to occur for macroevolution to occur. Realize we've never witnessed this happen. Consider the astronomical odds that are aginst it, and see if it's the most probable explanation. Big Bang theorists should do the same. Evaluate just how much "evidence" supports these thoeries, and how *much* can really be explained. You wanna talk about "Faith" or "belief without proof". Geeez.

Evolution simplified ...

We have found thousands and thousands of fossils, no transitional fossils. What are the odds of that? Here's what would have to happen for "macroevolution" (not adaptation) to occur.

1. Species has an offpspring whose mutations are so enormous that it cannot reproduce with the original species (speciation). This would be rare because most dramatic mutations lead to the death of the individual. (What causes a mutation this severe?)

2. The same mutation would have to happen to a seperate member of the species of opposite sex (different sexed twins would be the most likely explanantion). The same incredible mutation happening twice at once.

3. Both of these mutated individuals would have to survive into sexual maturity.

4. They would mate successfuly and have multiple offspring of different sexes that would also contain the mutation. (Need to have "boys" and "girls" or species dies out)

5. At least one member of each sex of this new species would have to surive, mature, reproduce, etc and keep the process going.

Later, archaeologists would need to discover the fossils of these indidivuals among the fossils of the species that they "speciated from".

---------------------------------

We haven't even begun to describe the "causes" of these mutations of the "cause" of molecules to form compounds, etc. What directs these processes to happen? There is no effect without a cause. That's science in its simplest form. Then we get into the problem of getting order from disorder, or matter arranging itself into a very ordered structures, and then arraning those structures with other highly ordered structures, etc. Then we get into the case of intelligence evolving into itself from unintelligent life. Anyone finding this probable?

---

=======================
-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

I was born and still reside in Dallas, Tx. I am from a LDS family and have friends who are active. I am always in touch with members and help out with my sisters ward when they need something I can help with.

Even though I am an athiest I dearly love the church and still call it my church. I may not believe but I have a hard time finding a better group of people. Sure no one is perfect but I think the world of them. I have always had a real soft spot for the elders and have them over for dinner every once and a while. I like to watch thier transformation. When they first get here they can't talk and will stare a whole in the carpet but give them a year and they can work a room better than any trained PR man around.

"Hey Brother Beckham great to see ya. How are the kids and your wife. Fantastic. Hey we where praying about you last night and even though I know how you feel if you ever need us we will be here." All this with those great grins they give when spreading the word.

I sounded like a complete ass in this thread because I always get sucked itno these arguments but I have no real axe to grind with anyone.

Watch those movies. In The RM they show and elders chorum meetind and cut back and forth with the relief society. Oh my word if it ain't the truth. You'll loose it, so freakin' funnny. The Book of Mormon burger is great too. The waiters write down the orders on gold paltes. Brilliant.

Well I could talk about the prairie jews all day but I need to pratice self control. Have good time and keep your home teaching up. Returning a rake or watching a game doesn't count.

---

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

a few more small points:

"For the record, there is no conflict between real science and religion. The problem only arises when science attempts to overreach and make claims about something about which it has no knowledge."

--this works both ways.

"There is precisely zero scientific evidence to prove the theory of macro-evolution(one species evolving into a completely new species)."

actually, i ate several of the products of documented macroevolution tihs morning for breakfast. plants give us demonstrations of macroevolution all the time, via two mechanisms...allopolyploidy - which is essentially hybridization between two species (with resultant fertile offspring in many cases, e.g. no evolutionary dead end). this mechanism allows for rapid speciation and has led to the evolution of approximately 80% of flowering plants, including bread wheat and rice.

and the second is autopolyploidy, which occurs when the entire chromosome complement of a species is doubled because the reduction process of meiosis does not occur. this mechanism doesn't occur as often as the former, but has resulted in the evolution of potatoes, peanuts, coffee, and grapes among other delicious items.

great thread everyone! keep up the mutual respect.

---

http://www.kenyawilds.com/faculty.html

"I think for some religions (like Mormons) it is part of their "mission" to bring people to Christ. The ones that I have met have always been respectful of other points of view and they typically will not hound you."

Thank you, thank you, thank you!!! It is rare to see someone throw some respect the missionary's way. On the most part the eleders are well behaved young people.

---

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

Helium balloons rise because helium is lighter than the surrounding air, and is thus displaced upwards by the heavier air, just as an air bubble rises through water. The law of gravity predicts this behavior. An object repelled by a magnet is reacting to a force exerted by the magnetic field of the magnet; if that force is greater than the force exerted by gravity, that object will rise.

You're gonna have to do a lot better than that!

An open mind is a great thing, as long as it is so open that your brains don't fall out.

Ken Lehner

---

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

Tibbs - it's pretty funny what some try to justify as hometeaching, huh? Next time I'm down in Dallas, we ought to go out on a ride or something...I go down every once in a while on business. Plus I have some family out there. By chance, do you know Gordon Foote?

What about the radiation thing (being present before the sun)?

Keep in mind the gravity, helium balloons, magetism, etc are very simple examples.

How does gravity predict helium will rise? Gravity only says that objects are attracted to each other based upon their mass and distance between them. I can see how density predicts how helium will rise, but I don't see how gravity does?

---

=======================
-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

"By chance, do you know Gordon Foote?"

Do you know his ward?

Anytime your down here look me up.

---

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

I was responding to the OP's ignorance of the workings of the theory of evolution.

Prove? What would be sufficient proof? Until such time as there is any counter-evidence, and the predictions made by evolution continue to be shown, the theory stands.

Have you ever seen the fossil record of the whale? It shows older species that are land-dwellers with cetacean features, younger species that are sea-dwellers with land-dweller features, and younger yet species with only vestigial land-dweller features, as in today's whales. Pretty good evidence for a gradual change from one species to another.

As for fertile offspring being an argument against evolution, I assume that you mean that if the offspring of one species were a truly different species, it would not be able to reproduce, and thus the new species would not perpetuate. Consider this: take a liter of blue paint. Remove a milliliter of blue, and add a milliliter of green. You probably can't tell the difference by looking at it; for all intents and purposes, it is still "blue". Continue the process. At every point, the before and after samples will be pretty much indistinguishable. Yet, at some point, the paint will no longer be the original "blue" but clearly distinguishable from the original. Eventually, it will be nearly "green". I think this analogy holds for speciation through evolution. Across millions of years, very minor changes will not prevent offspring from mating and passing on their new genes. After enough time, the new generations will not be able to breed with the older, unchanged population. Voila! a new species.

Ken Lehner

---

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

I don't know what ward Gordon is in. He's my uncle...he's on the stake high counsel. I do know, though, that he lives out in Flower Mound.

I'm taking the inerrant word of God (the Bible), which describes "night and day". Night and day don't exist in nature outside the frame of a rotating (not "revolving") body and a light-emitting source (a star). I was responding to the claim that the Creation myth of Genesis was scientifically accurate by quoting that "night and day" were created by God prior to the creation of the Sun and stars, which is not very plausible.

Whoever was "presenting" to you the other day knows not of what he/she speaks. AFAIK, no scientist makes claim to knowing what happened at the instant of the Big Bang. Certainly no scientist would use "radiation" and "light" interchangeably. The background radiation is left over from the Big Bang. And it's Planck and Hawking, not Plank and Hawkings.

Ken Lehner

---

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

Neither, but thanks for playing. I said "probably" because I, as a non-paleontologist, don't know the evolutionary history of the great apes. It is possible that they all existed relatively unchanged ten million years ago, and that the common ancestor of the great apes and humans was longer ago than 10mya.

The fossil evidence for macro evolution is overwhelming, if you only choose to look at it.

Ken Lehner

---

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

You might enjoy reading Evolution by Stephen Baxter, a fictional account of man's lineage from 70million years ago through 500MIL in the future. He's a scientist so it is pretty informative as well as entertaining.

---

Marty Gaal, CSCS
One Step Beyond Coaching
Triangle Open Water Swim Series | Old School Aquathon Series
Powerstroke® Freestyle Technique DVD

Klehner:

Great posts! Between you and Webswim, you two have it covered. It seems that all of these creationists take any uncertainty existing in science and say: "Well, God did it!". They only argue with the holes in our current scientific knowledge, without offering any real solution - except for "Well, God did it!". I know of some devoted scientists who have recently turned to God, because it DOES seem too miraculous to have happened by chance. They suggest that God herself/himself/itself is indeed the driving force. I can see how it can be overwhelming. And one three-letter word is a great answer for all questions.

To the rest:

Finally, I resent the implication that God is a "HE" or the Father. If there is a God, it is TOTALLY inappropriate to ascribe it any gender, in truth. Being a feminist (uh-oh), I would say that god would be a female entity, as it is about CREATION and NUTURING. When has MAN ever created life? Men destroy and pillage! To make babies, you can use just a little sperm, but you need a whole woman! I could give any man an egg, but there is nothing that he could do with it. So please, if you are a believer, keep it gender neutral!

All I can say to you about gender is, read the Bible. And speaking of having things covered, it's all covered in the same book. If you make a conscious decision to deny God you are making one poor choice. In the end just as the Bible states, all will bow down before him and acknowledge him. Unfortunatley for many that time will be too late.

Ah, the transitional fossil argument. For those playing at home, this is where the creationist says "where's the transitional species between X and Y?". The evolutionist (?) points to fossil Z. The creationist then asks "Well, where is the transitional fossil between X and Z"? And on ad infinitum. If you want to read about "transitional fossils", see http://www.gcssepm.org/special/cuffey_04.htm, especially about the horse and the whale (at the end). If you want really detailed examples, see http://www.gcssepm.org/special/cuffey_05.htm that discusses the evolution of the reptilian skull into the mammalian skull, replete with examples.

If there have been 100,000 fossils discovered, how does that compare to the number of species that have existed over the past 500 million years? If every one of those fossils were of a different species of current insect, we'd have something like 10% of species represented. There might have been 1 billion species over the course of life on this planet, so we really see only 1/100 of 1% of all species. It is remarkable how consistent a pattern of change we see in the fossil record, considering the paucity of the fossil record.

You think that evolution requires the sudden appearance of a new, wholly different species, as if some ancestor of man and ape gave birth to a homo sapiens. You are wrong. Subtle changes over millions of years and over wide geographic areas can result in different species that can no longer interbreed.



Ken Lehner

---

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

"All I can say to you about gender is, read the Bible"

I've read it. It is written primarily (I know not exclusively) by men. I also know all of the arguments for GOD being male and why Jesus came as a man. Who would listen to a woman in those times, right? To many extremely educated feminists - it is a construction of MAN for MEN.

"And speaking of having things covered, it's all covered in the same book"

Sorry, I missed the chapters where they discussed the theory of relativity, mapping the human genome, and development of antibiotics (etc.).

"If you make a conscious decision to deny God you are making one poor choice"

This is the kind of statement that makes me shake my head... It is my opinion that it is great for Christians to believe what they do, while they shun/make threatening statements regarding my choices.

What about the radiation thing? What has that got to do with my refutation of the "scientific accuracy" of Genesis in its explanation of "night and day"?

Silly me. I responded to your question about helium balloons and gravity, when gravity has nothing to do with it. I didn't realize you were trying to trap me with a red herring. It's buoyancy. Read up on Archimedes' Principle.

Ken Lehner

---

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

The Bible is written by men who knew Jesus. They were there with him when he would refer to God as his Father. Pretty straight forward. He also created Adam in his own image. That pretty much takes care of the human genome also!

I am not trying to offend anyone. However, if it comes between worrying about stepping on someones toes or presenting the gospel I will have to step on toes I guess.

Klehner is correct about gravity versus Helium. The helium ballon is still subscribing to gravity, as do the clouds, and the ozone layer. Helium merely displays its own properties in the confines of our atmospere or gravitational space. If it were to DEFY gravity, it would zoom from earth out into the sky, without ever returning. Triplethreat - you are way wrong with that comparison!

You can search science, biology, etc....all you want, but you will not find the answer there. Just as you stated in one of your posts many scientists have tried and end up finding Jesus instead.

At least you are searching, it shows that you are trying to find something to fill the emptiness that only Christ can fill.

My best friend has a Kentuckyism that seems to apply in this thread:

Never mud-wrestle with a pig. The pig enjoys it, and you'll just end up dirty.

Ken Lehner

---

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

Point taken