That's not good. I thought the problem with the "interference" was that FPROs typically benefitted from drafting (legally or illegally) behind AG men.

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"FTP is a bit 2015, don't you think?" - Gustav Iden

That's not good. I thought the problem with the "interference" was that FPROs typically benefitted from drafting (legally or illegally) behind AG men. //

Well apparently those guys are not pointing out the obstacles in the road to the ladies, bad pack etiquette.. (-;

Watching the race it was a big issue for everyone passing AG'ers it looked like to me. Nice to have that lane in the middle, but the AG's were so packed up it was impossible for Pros to pass without it..

I've done many IM and I'd say this was the most dangerous bike course of those I've ridden. The wind made it especially ugly. Riders were silly tired and riding all over the road battling the wind. I think riders were less observant and more carefuless at aid stations because of this. Bike bottles were strewn all over like land mines. I've never seen so many crashes, but I've never ridden a course that allowed me to see that amount of action.

This doesn't excuse the alleged pushing, wish is insane. I don't think the majority of the situation exclusive to pro women.

Errant bottle throw by a competitor in front me at the first bike aid station took me out and ended my day. Unfortunately, it was pretty blatant he dropped it in the middle of the road with zero attempt at trying to get it past the shoulder/normal area in a trash zone. Frustrating to say the least.

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IG: NCGregory8778

I lived in the Houston area from 2004 to 2019. The original IMTX bike course was actually kind of nice.

I've been saying this ever since the bike course moved to the Hardy a few years ago: it's arguably the shittiest bike course imaginable. Not that we're on a scenic bike tour while racing but a halfway decent looking bike venue would be nice. This is just a highway ride from The Woodlands through the shit parts of north Houston and back, done twice. There's zero respite from the wind and sun. Wind is almost always coming from a southerly direction this time of year. So half the bike ride is into a nasty wind. Plus you're getting scorched as there's zero shade anywhere.

The Lake Woodlands swim also kind of sucks. It's a great run course though.

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I've never done the race but when I was watching on Saturday, once the pro's made the turnaround on the bike, it looked VERY sketchy with all the AG'ers, pro's, and the motos are crammed into a single lane. It seemed very dangerous. I get that IM had to change the course several years back but this current course doesn't promote a safe and fair race. I really hope they can find a better bike course.

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blog

Unpopular opinion here, but I like the swim course, bird poop and all. Swimming into the canal is cool and I loved having spectators cheering you on as you approached T1,

I agree about the run course. It may be the best IM run course out there as far as spectator support goes. Also, best finish line vibe. The IMSG World Champs a few years ago didn’t have a finish crowd like this for an average tri guy. Just tons of fun to be out there running with great crowds.

Please provide proof and/or video, or at least a directly involved person's statement. Otherwise, to me, you're just bragging.

There might be things completely unacceptable (and those should be potentially punishable), but complaining about crowded race is ridiculous. If they want a race only for themselves, let them race T100. Oh wait, they're not at the top.

I'm sorry to read this, hope you're ok. Then I hope your bike is ok as well.

IMO, this should be in the rule book as DSQ, if you intentionality discharge your bottle under your bike, even if it's in the aid zone. Mistakes will happen, that you might not catch a bottle (Youri x5), but intentional discharge under someone's front wheel is just reckless.

how exactly is this bragging? I didn't race. These women sure as hell aren't bragging. And everything is verifiable from their IG pages detailing their personal accounts of negative interactions with AG men. I named the women, go and find their IG posts. Unless you're going to troll them and tell them that they're bragging. Which is probably what you'll end up doing. Their complaints are more than just a "Crowded race". It's about men slotting in too soon on a pass, so closely that they connect their back wheel with the woman's front wheel and causing a crash. It's about actually being SHOVED by an AG racer as they are both racing - like he took his hands off of his bars and pushed her as she's riding her bike. These actions caused crashes and injury - it's not fair racing for the women's field.

If he really shoved her and she crashed, it's a crime and I'll wait for a formal prosecution. I don't use IG.

Are pros still required to ride staggered? I could see an AGer thinking they are blocking by not moving to the right - even though AG FOP men should know better.

I'm in no way excusing pushing someone on the bike though - that's way out of line.

Not surprised at all. From the broadcast, I couldn't believe the sheer numbers of AG'ers I saw that don't understand how dangerous it is to be just strewn across the lane 3, 4, 5 bikes wide and also just park themselves on the left side just begging for a dangerous situation. I realize the wind is soul crushing and f's with your brain (I've have my share of dark inner monologue racing IMTX on the Hardy) but you still have the be aware of proper lane etiquette

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Cheers, Ray

[/quote]
I posted during the race but no one commented so I deleted the post. That said has IM learned nothing. Multiple riders in each direction along with motorcycles in both directions. Safety is obviously not a concern to Ironman.

While you wait for formal prosecution, you should learn how to ask for corroboration in good faith. In this case, if there's no video of the incident, it may not be possible to corroborate. In which case, you need to take the poster's assertion in good faith, with the understanding that they could be mistaken - yes, people make mistakes, and yes, some humans are terrible and will make false accusations. You need to learn to hold that understanding inside you instead of what you did above.

OP is relaying secondhand (at best) information.

mountain_erin wrote:

You men need to do better.

Also, what is this extraneous and sexist nonsense? What do I or any of the men who read this thread have to do with the antics of the IM TX racers?

You absolutely do have to take accusations in good faith, but in the prosecution of a crime (which is what's being alleged) the accused party is also afford the right to the presumption of innocence until proven guilty. The word of one party over the other in the absence of other evidence is not enough to convict.
This was a crowded race, if this did in fact occur as we are discussing I am sure there are witnesses who will be the deciding factor.

So you are I'm effect, both right and that is the beauty of the American legal system. Everyone is correct until all are heard.



Now, to another point, in your initial post you comment about how 2 pro women caught their wheels in expansion gaps and in your own words you assume men are to blame. This does seem a bit unfair without further rationale/ first hand accounts of how a man forced them to ride into an expansion gap while maintaining their wheel parallel to it.
Could be the case, but it seems an unfair assumption to make without reason.

^^^^^^This.

The bike was a mess, but I'm concerned with the OP's painting men with a broad brush and telling them that they "need to do better."

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ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)

I do have one genuine follow up question:

Would your perspective of any of these interactions have changed had those who purported the acts also been women pros or AG?

Genuine thought and I encourage you to consider it, because in my opinion a bad act is a bad act regardless of the gender of either party.
When we include inflammatory language targeting specific groups or communities that is where common discourse dies because those in the accused party can get defensive.
Rather couldn't we frame this same discussion as "AG athletes interfering with pro race"
It shouldn't matter which gender either side is, a crime is a crime and regardless of status everyone should be allowed to have their own race day un interfered with regardless of racing status

We all know some fast age groupers are absolute ass holes with full of ego and pride. I barely hear ‘on your left’ when fast guys pass me. Sometimes, they pass me in sketchy area and situation without saying a word. They just don’t care. I can see this actually happened. Please please please let’s not be one of those guys.

On your left doesnt work most of the time.. they look that direction and then float the direction they are lookingand then Im swerving to miss them. My experience is better to say nothing 80% of the time.

Glad I’m not the only one who caught the ‘girls got caught in expansion gaps, damn you mens ‘!

Look for all I know the OP could be right and there were some jerk guys racing. But it’s coming across as a jaded swipe at anyone who owns a twig and dingleberries

This is the internet. It's very easy to move on. There's some sad sad dudes in here who are looking awfully pathetic.

Replying to you only because you're the last post, sorry.

But holy moly. Do y'all want an echo chamber? Really, we made it 8 posts before we had someone start throwing around their own sexist attitude and responses to OP "because she did it first"? ("Oh, you're bragging [about being a female pro], get faster and race in a smaller field" immediately followed by a separate response that someone dropping a bottle under a bike should be a disqualification?? @Savage, truly hope you're ok and sorry your day got cut short, hope the next one is way better.)

We see thread after thread of race ranger and race conditions and the front of the race and blah blah blah and ONE person posts about how shitty the conditions are for women in the professional field and y'all pile on about the legality of her language? And you feel personally attacked?! Wheels in expansion gaps was noted as a problem due to the density of racers on course - and for the professional women, if they're not around other professional women, they're around FOP AG men. (Except Taylor Knibb, she's around pro men.) So, yes. The logical conclusion of the issue is that the professional women were impacted by the density of FOP AG men. Stating the issue as age groupers is less accurate.

I mean, come on. How many posts have you seen about how slow women are the only ones getting slots to world championships (Kona, Nice, or 70.3)? How many times do you think the women on the board have experienced being painted by a broad brush? I'm certainly not saying that its right, but in this case, its accurate. If you weren't there or you were but weren't around professional women, then this is clearly not about you, its about the individuals in the race. (Whereas when I read about how the only people qualifying for the women's world champs slots are slow, that is about me.)

Good grief. This is a safety issue for the WHOLE field, this happened to be a post about the professional women. I like having other women on this board. The women's specific board is gone, so its kind of uncool to make a thread specific to women's racing so hostile. I really like being a part of this community, but boy reading how this thread devolved sure felt shitty.

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KJ
Swim and Triathlon Coach
AllTerrainEndurance.com
KJ@allterrainendurance.com

Same as you...replying on the whole subject, not just you.

Our out-and-back loop was divided into three sections with cones. It was my understanding (and was told by SAG support afterwards) that the eastern most lane was for race support vehicles and not racers. On my second trip south everyone migrated to that lane and the middle lane was empty. The expansion gaps that were causing crashes were mostly in that area. I saw a few constables trying to direct everyone to the middle and heard that support vehicles were held up from racers in that lane.

It is also my understanding that when pros are mixed in with AG racers, they can stay left of the fray, whether it be a draft pack or a legal line, and race their own race. They have slightly different draft, blocking and passing rules that we do. I saw several pro women who were caught up in the AG draft packs near the front. There should have been race officials there to break up the packs and get the pro women out of the fray.

There also should have been a bigger gap between pro women start times and AG start times. At the very least, it delays the inevitable mixing of top AG men and pro women.

this is one of the most stupid posts i have read in some time.
well done .
where does she brag ...
why is complaining abut unsafe experiences ridiculous ...
and while it is the nowadays so famous hyperbole comment man have to do better its well known that a lot of guys have ego issues.
so would you not think you should be a bit less of a d.ck.

The whole thing sounds unfortunate but what do I have to do with this?

Let's try to keep sexism/racism/etc. to at least a low simmer, thanks ;)

Bragging is not an accurate word, I should have used a different one, apologies.

Still, please provide proof and/or video or at least a witness statement. Some people are very eager to crucify other people, just because someone said so.

Quoting so it makes it onto the second page where people might read it again.

Ya'll, this shit happens at *every* WPRO race and four times more on looped bike courses.

Why are men being called out? Because it's the head of AG men who wind up riding up into the WPRO field at most events. (It's the back of the pack PLUS the head of the men's AG field on looped courses). It's not sexist, it's simple facts.

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

General observations from on the course on Saturday.

I didn't see the mass packs that have been present previous years - there were some blatant groups and I got swarmed three times with bikes going both sides of me (I believe I was correctly to the right side at this time) riding like a peloton. What I did see while on the way north was groups heading south that looked like they were just suffering and were spread out across the lanes not to gain an advantage, just struggling, but resulting in creating the same blocking problems.

The marking of the lanes was not clear - it seemed intuitive that the central lane should be empty as that kept the bikes heading in opposite directions away from each other and gave a lane for the motos in the middle - but apparently that was not the intent (per another poster).

I always check over my shoulder before making a pass, habit from riding on open roads I guess - and race etiquette? I got a nice thank you from a MPro as they passed me because I had looked back and could see them coming so sat up as not to pull in front of them to pass - we can be safe and courteous around other athletes if we choose to be.

As to the called out behavior by AG men I wasn't there so can't add anything, but this race interference (in degrees) happens every race. It seems the best way to provide a safe/fair WPro race is to increase the gap between start times, and/or more refs on course. I believe people have been asking for that for about 20 years!

You can't really increase gaps when there are women "pros" that are 1 hour slower than the top man AG. As said in other posts for other congested races, the bar for being a "pro" is incredibly low in the US.
6 WPros out of 29 didn't even break 10 hours, with over half the field not breaking 9.30.
5 AG women went sub 10...have they been considered to be interefering with the WPro as well?
150 AG men were sub 10, should they all have to stop for a coffee break not to interefere with those slow WPros?

Here are some points to consider...

NINE (up from yesterday's 7) professional women have said that their races were negatively impacted by age group men.

People here are questioning the validity of their claims, which is BANANAS.

The Ironman Texas results list 2782 total participants, and of that 488 were women. Just 17%. So while perhaps there could have been an AG woman in with these poorly behaved draft packs, the math supports the first hand accounts of these eight professional athletes, that these packs were comprised of men.

Also, there are NINE independent accounts from these professional women about how their races were impacted by AG men on the bike. They didn't get together as a group to determine a narrative, it wasn't an isolated incident of one person. It was at least 25% of the professional women's field who had a common, negative experience. And.... why would they make this up?

Instead of saying "the OP's generalisms makes all men look like they're to blame", perhaps, put yourselves in one of those women's shoes and ask "shouldn't I be deserving of a fair and safe race?"

Finally, while I am a very average AG female athlete, I have been in the sport for 16 years. I have COUNTLESS experiences of my race, as a mid pack AG racer being negatively impacted by men. It's usually a guy passing me and then immediately slowing down upon completing his pass. I then have to slow way down (or usually stop pedaling) to allow for the legal distance (or else I'd get an overtaking penalty), and then the guy usually doesn't go faster and I get to decide if I want to burn a match to pass him and then play this stupid game repeatedly. And this usually happens multiple times over the course of a race, and it's never done by the same individual. It's never another woman athlete doing this to me, it's always a man. And I bet if you talk to your female training partners, they all have similar stories.

So yeah, men can and should do better.

Couple of thoughts:

1.) IMTX *always* has a high rate of athletes who wind up blowing / finishing "slower" than you think they should. Heat / humidity / wind on the bike, plus being early in the year. It's like clockwork.

2.) It isn't ever just enough to look at finish times to determine whether or not the age group field was interfering with the WPRO race. It's *how* they got to that position. The issue is almost always on the bike, and so you need to factor in a.) the time gap between the start of the WPRO swim and the start of the AG field, and b.) then the actual bike splits to determine whether or not interference occurred.

3.) "Only" 25 MPRO athletes (out of 41 finishers) beat the first amateur, who went 8:30. Should everyone who finished behind the first am forfeit their pro cards?

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

100% Erin - some of the experiences I've had as a FOP AGer (with my window starting at 45 ten years ago) with other AG men has been hilarious - some of these guys will KILL themselves to not get chicked (and geezered simultaneously). I have gotten so much enjoyment from playing those games then dropping their asses on the bike or run.

At the same time, #NotAllMen haha I have also had some of the best race experiences with other guys - the best words of encouragement while I'm passing them or they're passing me - 'great job!' 'nice pace!' etc. The silly ones are a tiny minority in my experience.

Just wanted to pop on here and offer support to you - one of the few women on here who will stand up to the vocal dudes doing their 'stop being such a terrible sexist' schtick. Lol.

Okay....

I think I will respond to this on behalf of all fast age group assholes..

1) I feel that the Pro-female race is more important than my race to win my AG. I try to be courteous. Sometimes stuff happens. Sorry!!!
That female pro, I accidentally cut in too soon on, back in Kona 2012.....
Sorry!

2) I am supposed to yell "on your left"???
A) Okay!!!
Let's be clear?
I have to yell "on your left" 200 to 1000 times?
B) I have to slow down (thousands of times)?
So that people can here me yell "on your left?"

3) I am not allowed to pass any BOP rider, anywhere that THEY feel is "unsafe."
It's not what I feel is safe?
Who cares what my bike skills are!
Given- that the course is crowded, that BOP rider's have poor bike handling skills, and that BOP rider's are riding all over the road,
And I am out of breath from so much yelling!!

I pretty much shouldn't pass at all.

4) "I just don't care"-

I care about my race.
I care about the female pro-race.
I care about my peers (other amateur athletes) and their races.
I care about following the rules.
I care about being reasonable and courteous.

But I suppose that non of this counts as "caring"...

What I SHOULD really care about is the feelings of importance, and awesomeness-.... of each and everyone of the slowest 1000 people in the race.

3) unless they were injured, pretty much yes. Even if you exclude the winner, that potentially will turn pro and won 12 mins ahead of everyone else, the other 15 pros were slower and they were over 1 hr slower than the winner, roughly 15% slower, which is a different sport. Yet some of those guys celebrated on instagram for their amazing (!) performance.
In any other sport, if it takes you 15% more time than the winner, you're usually nowhere. Unsurprisingly, the vast majority is US men or women, where you can go to some mickey mouse race and get your pro card.

Also, point 2) doesn't make much sense either, looking at the swim times of those WPros...as a third of the WPros, swam a 1.10+, which in my opinion just isn't manageable by time gap of AG people starting. Hundreds of AG men swim in the 50s, should they all wait 30 mins more? Don't you think that the problem is that some of the WPro are in a different postcode from the top 5/10?

No, I don't think it's a problem. More people racing PRO is better. I don't want a cyclical return to the "pro amateur." I want more people on the start line, makes coverage look better, does the whole thing of "hey this might be a broadcast sport" better.

Texas is usually the first non-wetsuit swim of the year, and you *always* have some slower than normal times.

In an ideal world there should be a 30 minute gap between the pro field start and the AG one. But we also know that it's unlikely that event gets permitted in certain places, so...here we are. If there's going to be interference in the field (which there will be), there also needs to be a conversation about the behavior of those riding into WPROs -- and, conversely, the behavior of those WPROs when AGers wind up riding into them.

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

I did this race in 2022 when the weather conditions were similar, very high winds on the Hardy. I'm towards the front of the pack and there were no issues on the first loop. The second loop, when I started catching people on the first loop, was dicey. Going into the wind people were clearly struggling and didn't really hold a straight line, lots of swerving. I saw one hit a cone and go down. On the final return with the wind at my back is when I really started catching the back of the packers and then it was an issue of speed. The wind was so strong that I could hold 30 mph with a light pedal, which is the upper limit of my comfort level. I didn't like going that speed while passing lots of people. I did not push the pace because there were just too many people whose bike skills I did not trust. I can imagine that would be a challenge for the PROs who need to go fast and didn't have the same luxury that I did to ease off.

As for the OP's claims of a man actually pushing a woman or multiple men grossly violating drafting rules, I think it's pretty easy to agree that kind of stuff goes beyond the bounds of acceptable behavior. My experience with fast men is that most are not like that, but a few are, and it can be enraging since there's not much you can do about it at the time.

Agreed. I'm a FOP female age grouper and consistently am one of the first out of the swim, which means I usually have a line of men passing on the bike. I have had all the joy of being passed unsafely, hit by a male athlete from behind on the bike (effectively ending my day, injuring me, and costing me a KQ), and the guy that passes and can't hold his line/speed. Hell I even had two guys pass me on my right through a turn at IM AZ last fall. It's beyond frustrating. While I know this is not all male athletes, all my poor experiences at races have been due to men behaving poorly or just not paying attention. I have to say, the all female races I have been to have been much kinder and a better atmosphere.

It's a bit frustrating to see the sexism and blaming the pro female athlete here. Like I said, I truly believe most male athletes are great, but the sheer numbers at races are overwhelmingly male, so the culprits are likely going to be male.

Hi. I am Clarice, the one that got pushed on the bike. He made contact with me but I did not crash - I remained upright and continued pedaling despite being all "WTF?" over what just happened. He was trying to follow the group he was with, tried slotting in front of me to stick onto the wheel he was sucking, pushed me, then continued on.

I am not interested in pressing charges, getting this guy in trouble, etc. I never said any of this.

There is no video evidence. I never claimed this was "assault" or I wanted to retaliate against this man.

This is my story to tell, with many people deciding to throw in their own opinions. I felt as if I needed to come here to say this.

I understand this happens as a back of the pack swimmer. I'm not a top professional woman - I am a happy to be here professional athlete who has the privilege of being able to race at the top level. This is not my full time gig. It's fine - I know my weaknesses.

I didn't appreciate the groups riding with me but I kept to my own race and focused on the Race Rangers of the pros that I was riding with. We asked the official if we could do this and he said fine. They knew this would be an issue going into the second loop.

I ran past the man that pushed me on the bike very early into the run - that was enough karma for me.

I wasn't trying to block anyone. I am riding my own race and this massive pack comes through. It's literally seconds before I can process what is happening. The AGer was trying to follow the wheel of the guys in front of him, he was 3rd or 4th in this pack - I was already to the right minding my own business as these people tried barreling through.

I just want to clarify something.. So I know your races have been negatively impacted by men, but have your races ever been negatively impacted by women? Also do you think men have their races negatively impacted women?

As an aside I was always in favor of the pro women starting first, and having more spacing between start of pro men and women. What do you think of women starting first?

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Hi Clarice, my name is Thomas. I was a super noisy as f*ck professional from long ago. I am big part of the reason you have your own pro potties in transition, prior to that we had to use the regular potties which were always crowded making that last minute potty stop impossible. I mention this because I have fought hard for the rights of professionals and to have ***clean*** races. Not that professionals add a ton of value to the race, I don't think we do, and age-groupers are the ones that make these races possible.

That said there is no need for violence, either physical or verbal on the race course. I have had many incidents in my career which are unsettling to say the least. I even had an amatuer verbally threaten me on a race course. I was able to get the official looped in during the race and the athlete is now banned for life from Ironman triathlon (10+ years ago). From my experience Ironman took these incidents very seriously at one time. There is a lot of discretion in determining someone's intent. In my case the athlete was hostile and endangering the race of others in a malicious manner. If someone pushed you on the bike maliciously that is a very serious thing. However in congestion there is always a chance the person did so out of safety or purely out of instinct and with no malice. Obviously the intent matters. Personally I don't want to be on a race course with someone who is unhinged and acting with malice. If it is the latter I would encourage you to follow up on it. I actually wish I complained more to Ironman looking back on things. It is a regret. At the time I was just trying to focus on being the best athlete I could be and some of my complaints were against the behavior of my own peers who were more "golden" to the Ironman brand. One example was when I coldclocked in the swim by a many time Ironman champ, there is plenty of contact in the swim and you need to prepare for it but I know the difference between an accidently elbow to the swim goggle, a kick to the face, and just a straight up coldclock attempt. Needless to say I bit my tongue more times than I can count.

I would also suggest (not to mansplain, would tell a male pro the same thing) the pro women voice their concerns at pro meetings. IME there was always some discretion with things, I can remember talking about things like the timing of age-group starts and I can remember once or twice where there was enough concern that we got Ironman to push the age-groupers back 5 to 15 mins. I haven't been to a meeting at years, but I hope there are some vocal pros who speak their minds at meetings. If Tom Z is still around, know the he can be incredibly effective in rejiggering operational issues with Ironman.

Happy racing!

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Hi Tom!

Thanks for the porta potties! I really appreciate those :)

While I could reach out to IM - the problem is I have no idea what this guys number was. I get what you mean - maybe he did not have ill intentions versus wanting to shove someone out of their way. I've thought about this. I've also thought about oh - what was I maybe doing wrong, etc. a lot over the last few days after this has developed traction.

One female pro talked about the congestion on course at the professional meeting so I am glad she did because we knew that we were to ride our professional race versus focusing on the AGers. The officials understood this as they drove by and saw me and another female pro stuck in a pack with these age groupers.

There are always going to be professionals towards the back of the pack. We all aren't going to be in the top 100, heck maybe even top 200. And that's okay. We are well aware of this, believe me. We don't need people to tell us this.

Thanks for posting this. I appreciate someone writing a nice comment and giving good advice. This really makes me want to say something in the future, so maybe you'll help start the change.

I think this part is awesome, and by far the most effective way to respond to an idiot in a race.

I'm not Erin, and I haven't been racing as long (~9 yrs), but I can say that no, my race has never been negatively affected by women (except in a swim with wave starts).

I'm an ex collegiate swimmer and swimming through wave starts is a pain. I do prefer wave starts to rolling starts for understanding your standing in the field. But swimming through early waves is frustrating and traffic for later waves from earlier waves negatively affects my race.

I've never been negatively impacted by a woman on the bike or run course.

I have had men on the bike course either act like I'm an obstacle when passing, pass as a massive pack, do the pass me - slow down - require me to drop out of draft zone - and make me pass dance multiple times, and ride unsafely with close passes, blocking, dropped nutrition, and so on. The only time I've had an 'issue' with a fellow female competitor on course is when its a local race and the sprint waves go first and I'm passing the back of the field, and brand new athletes on beach cruisers or mountain bikes are weaving, and even then, I mention they should ride to the right as I pass and off they go.

I have had men on the run course pass me in very strange, aggressive manners. Think run drafting like Andy Bernard in The Office - run up right on my heels, quickly dodge around me, and then jump right back in front of me. No words exchanged. No woman has ever passed me like that!



And back to the matter at hand - I am such a big fan of getting the pro women out front first. Marathons do it!! To avoid interference and encourage head-to-head competition! I think there'd have to be a study of swim times and bike pacing before committing to an actual gap, though. I'd be concerned that you'd have the middle of the bell curve of pro women getting out of the water at the same time as too-big a group of pro men. But in theory I want this to happen.

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KJ
Swim and Triathlon Coach
AllTerrainEndurance.com
KJ@allterrainendurance.com

Just thinking outloud... There are a couple issues here:

1. Fast AG males being as fast or faster than pro females.
2. Looped bike courses.

When option 2 exists, option 1 is compounded even more so.

But in general, I think the biggest problem is crowds. It's not like the handful of jerky guys are only jerky to women. There are plenty of us who look at the hyper aggressive jerk and wonder what's going on with that guy.

Now for the farmer analogy....
I thought I had occur to me the other day when taking care of my chickens, is that when they are all crowded together on account of a recent storm, they hens really treat each other like crap. (not that the rooster is any better, he's a real cock) But those ladies really do hen-peck each other when they have to be around each other a lot and are stressed.

There is a crowd dynamic at play I think in us humans we might not fully appreciate when talking about this issue in Ironman. Crowds add to stress, high levels of stress lead to more aggressive outbursts. We see it in cities, schools, and flocks.

None of this excuses the behavior of those creating the problems. But I do think it's worth pointing out the reasons why the stress levels are elevated. And of course, the mere fact that everyone is out there engaged in stress-inducing activity on little sleep from the night before then we're literally put into a "corral" where despite best intentions, stress levels for some percent are going to be rising from the start.

It seems like the best way to minimize these stresses is going to be:
Wave starts/timing / less crowds
Less Loops
Less Registrations sold

Unfortunately Ironman FL appears to be the only NA race outside of Kona that's not a looped bike course. I don't think selling less registrations is the way to go. I think if anything the pros should want IM to sell as much as possible, especially the female pros since they depend disproportionately on male AG revenue to fund their prize purse.

The course designs are really the problem. So if IM could buy the permitting to non-looped courses everywhere, what's it going to add to entrance prices? $70-100 more a person? I'd absolutely be willing to pay 100 bucks more for a non-looped course.

Replying to all thread,

Do you think Ironman cares about the pros or the AG, they only care about your $$$, pros cost them money, slow AG is the gravy,
IM doesn't care they have no bike skills, or even know the USAT rules and etiquettes,
Until you stop supporting IM races, nothing will change.

I am also not Erin, but I am a FOP female who is very strong on the bike and placed in my AG at IMTX on Saturday. I've been racing for over 10 years, and some of the behavior I have experienced from men is something that I have never seen from another woman. I'm not blaming all men. I had a wonderful guy tell me over and over how strong I was biking on Saturday and giving me tons of encouragement. But. I was also passed by multiple groups of men passing me on both sides with no warning. I was yelled at by a guy (in a draft pack) because they re-passed me shortly after I passed them because they never dropped back to a legal distance out of my draft zone. I could write so many more examples from other races. Sadly - this happens to me at EVERY major race I do.

I don't have an answer on how to fix it. I wish I did. I think the behavior is incredibly unnecessary and it make zero sense for such aggression and behavior when we're all out there trying to accomplish the same thing.

It would help if Ironman started handing out more penalties to these packs. The moto riders will ride behind them but almost never give out a penalty even if it is packs of blatant drafters. That is what I heard about at IMTX and saw first hand at Oceanside. And of course the packs will destroy people trying to ride fairly even more on a windy day/course.

That would help men and women. Ironman have shown they don't care, and many racers are also fine with it unfortunately.

He isn't going Pro. He is 38 and has no desire to go Pro.

Gosh / I’m not a lefty or righty but I am a man and your posts here remind me why there is little hope in taking the online stupidity down a notch.

I’ve raced 40 Ironmans and Kona many times and “the” most blatant drafting/cheating I’ve seen has come from FOP women….i swim slow and bike well.


Lots of guilt in both genders. It was a dumb post.

IMFL isn’t the only one loop course outside of Kona in NA. Penticton is as well.

***those men*** can and should do better. Not 'men' as in ALL men, which is the implication. I and other 'men' had nothing to do with it. Never do. It is a minority. Generalizations help no one.

While I agree with u, I’ll await for the standard ‘we know it’s not ALL men, if it doesn’t apply to you then you don’t have anything to worry about *eye roll’

I empathise with those who were impacted in this race. A male dominated sport usually, often means higher chance of douche behaviour from a male. Some people are just jerks when they race or even when they don’t. But I also have never been a fan of the ‘whole entire gender’ must do better argument. I prefer to think of it as a ‘people’ thing rather than a gender thing.

That's my girl. I am really proud of you.

I have known Clarice since 2019, she is an amazing person and athlete. I would trust her with the care of my wife and daughter, if she said it happened it happened end of story.

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All I Wanted Was A Pepsi, Just One Pepsi

Team Zoot, Team Zoot Mid-Atlantic

The "men need to do better" is divisive and I sense some personal problems triggered. She is entitled to her opinion, so whatever.

I did the race, and although there were a few bad apples out there, most guys and girls were riding fair. The wind was insane so there was a lot more swerving but not ill intended. I did not see anything extreme (not implying it didn't have happen) however, I caught up to a WPRO we were riding legally when a pack of guys (and some girls) swarmed us by left and right. I watched those guys go through an aid station ahead of us and it was really sketchy. Thankfully, the refs did a good job at breaking up the pack and saw a lot of folks in the penalty tents.

I believe all the WPRO's complaints though and I think all bad apples should be reported to race officials.

Just a note in general to the thread - If the FOP AG men are the problem, then shouldn't we be hearing equal amounts if not more complaints from AG men swimmers and other FOP AG men? Just by sheer numbers there are more FOP AG men than WPro, so there should be more complaints from them, all else being equal.

Maybe this is because what most men feel is acceptable racing aggression is beyond what most women feel is acceptable. I'm not saying anybody should be taking their hands off the bars to push other riders, some thing are wholly not ok. But passing someone through a gap, or around a turn, or at high speed, all of these things are gray areas. It's not unreasonable to think one rider did what they felt was a safe maneuver and the person next to them felt it was unsafe.

I respectfully disagree. I raced this weekend on a very crowded course and I greatly appreciated it when people spoke up before passing ("on your left"). In fact, I thank them.

While I have noticed people riding on trails drift to their left (while turning to look over their shoulder), I have not experienced this during a race.

Never understood the whole "on your left" thingy unless you are asking someone to move on a narrow trail, etc.. Pass on the left hand side of the rider, so simple. What's the point of saying it? We should all be expecting riders to pass us on the left hand side. I often see a lot of older/slower riders get triggered about it.

The point of saying it is to alert them that you're about to pass, and thus don't startle them. I agree with not using "on your left", though, as I've found that people often look over their shoulder and then veer in that direction. I just say "coming around" and then wait to see if they'll veer or not before passing.

I can put an end to all this banter with one sentence... Men are different than women.

Well you’re certainly not helping.

Also, no it was not a dumb post.

It's also possible that the aggressive FOP AG men act worse towards women. I'd say that is a more likely explanation than the notion women are more likely to voice their complaints, which is basically what you are saying.

And as a FOP AG man, I'll go ahead and register my complaint. In just about every race I've done, there has been a handful of guys whose hyper-competitive behavior on the bike is either dangerous or hostile. Sometimes it's blatant drafting or cutting in, other times it's barking at someone they perceive to be in their way. My impression is that most people around me are trying to do the right thing, but there's a small subset that are jerks. I don't recall a woman ever being a part of that subset.

I'm a man and I didn't interpret her statement as saying, "every single male triathlete must do better". I read that as saying problematic behavior on the bike course is more common among men and men need to do more to avoid a dangerously antagonistic environment at the front of the race.

It seems you chose to read it as referring to all men, and by extension, to yourself, which I would say is a distinctly male reaction. But since you seem to prefer precise claims, let me be clear that when I say "it is a male reaction" what I actually mean is that men are more likely than women to react in the manner that you did, but certainly not ALL men because not all men are the same.

While I could reach out to IM - the problem is I have no idea what this guys number was.
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I think you are missing a major part of Gerlach's point... Whereas the pushy guy was a problem, turning him in is not necessarily the solution moving forward. If the Pros want a clean race for the M/BOP womens pro race, they need to start advocating for ways to make their race more clean. An example of this would be rallying for more officials that are designated to the latter ladies. Maybe make sure that there is 1 official per every X number of pro racers (5? 10? No idea what the number is nor what it needs to be). If there was an official anywhere near your race, then the opportunity for them to see and manage problems increases. Broadcasts have shown that the race cares a lot about the pros in front but doesn't do AS MUCH for the middle and back of the packers. Here's an opportunity for the cohort to work on making their day better.

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

That's not what I'm saying. That would be akin to saying "women are so bitchy". I'm saying that the acceptable standard of conduct is different (on average) between the sexes, and once one's acceptable standard is breached the amount of complaints is similar. It's the same outcome but for an importantly different reason. As far as men being more aggressive specifically towards women I have no idea, it's certainly possible.


This is exactly my point. People are doing what they feel is acceptable, and different people have different standards. And as you said, men are more likely to be more aggressive. I'm sure a % of people feel that as long as it's not against the rules then it's fair, or even as long as you don't get caught breaking the rules then it's still fair. Dumb, but that's some of the people we're all racing with. There's surely some women that race that way too, but we're talking averages and outliers.

Last I checked, most of these ladies you are talking about are top 50 in the Pro Series, so your point is invalid

They might not have a sub 1 hour swim but these ladies can run a sub 3:30 marathon consistently. Who made the rule to be a pro you have to be amazing in all 3 disciplines? These ladies may not have been collegiate swimmers, but they are amazing bikers and runners. Recognize their abilities in the 2 disciplines that take up the most distance and time in a full

You have to remember the AG had a wet suit legal swim and had a lot more people to draft off of and sight off of; where the pros had started in the dark and had less people to work with.

Exactly. How many times to we see posts like why can't I use my headphones, why can't I use my phone?

Last year at Eagleman as I was getting ready to pass a person in front of me, they noticed a photograher on the side of the road and decided to wave at the camera, this caused the rider to veer from the right side of the road to the other side of the road passiong right in front of me, forcing me to lock up my brakes to avoid a crash at 24 mph.

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All I Wanted Was A Pepsi, Just One Pepsi

Team Zoot, Team Zoot Mid-Atlantic

I thought about this for a good time last night and realized similar. We can talk about this all we want within ourselves and the community but if we don't talk to the powers at be or the officials at our pro meetings we can't expect a change. I've had conversations with some other pro females and we are on board to try to do something.

I'll leave it at that. I did not post my race recap to try and throw anyone under the bus - I was just talking about an experience. This has developed into something more that I did not intend to happen in the first place. I also did not ask for my story to be posted here, nor did these other women involved. I had a reporter reach out to use my experience and interview me and I was happy to share, but a large part of our conversation was about how this an issue but right now there is a lot more awareness behind it and we have the power to do something about it.

So we can point fingers at genders, yell at people behind keyboards or we can choose to do be better and try to change something happening in our sport.

OK, stranger on the internet. Victory is yours. Carry on.

That doesn't mean much when the said pros finish the fast course of IM Texas in ~10/10.5 hours. That is strong amateur female pace, but not pro pace. The gigantic gap with actual competitive pros says a lot about how young our sport is. IM is just too generous handing out pro cards.

Same - the amount of aggressive douchebag men, I have encountered over the years is crazy. I used to be able to hold my own as a runner and cyclist, and still was routinely aggravated by packs of aggro dudes drafting, cutting me off, being rude, you name it.

I have had words with more than one rider after a group ride in which they decided to yell at the pack, or ride dangerously - but the attitude is never contrite.

So, yeah - some AG FOP men have the same experience.

As for all the "not all men" whiners who feel so defensive, why don't we focus on the actual assholes that make the sport unpleasant rather than the semantics - typical male fragile egos.

IM USAT

Oops, thanks!

This stuff is going to happen with such a mix of abilities. So.....what's the solution? Can somebody point to (if there are any) rules to be an IMPRO that you have to be within a certain time of the front or some sort of baseline to clear? Many sports have guardrails like that. Clearly the bar isn't high enough to get the pro card, but there has to be some sort of criteria to keep it. Is there not a rule in place like that? I get that there are "bad races" but there are pros that have no business racing in the pro field and their times are consistently below that of their comparable AG'ers.

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Cheers, Ray

Link below for the US, see on page 2.


The problem seems to be it's on a relative basis: if only "slow" pros show up at 3 races, and one finishes within 8% of them time-wise, they can become pros themselves; and there is no required minimum time that would be specific to each qualifying race.

https://teamusa-org-migration.s3.amazonaws.com/USA%20Triathlon/Migration/Documents/2023%20USAT%20Elite%20License%20Triathlon%20Qualification%20Criteria%2032923.pdf

interesting. appreciate the link!

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Cheers, Ray

One of those MPros here who would have their liscence revoked if some people on this forum had it their way. Just giving my $0.02

Having been in the FOP of the AG race for a few years I can say that men have complained about unsafe behviour too... at least the ones that want a fair race. Many have been complaining for years as the congestion, draft-pack and dangerous riding is super common. This was a big contributing factor of me taking the pro card: too many pace-lines and super unsafe riding (both for themselves and the others around them) I was just done. I didn't realize until I was out of it truly just how absurd the race conditions are at that area of the race. Sure its not a huge group of guys acting poorly, but its big enough of a group that its seriously unsafe. The pro women (or any racer) shouldn't have to deal with this bs. Regardless if you think they deserve their card, they got it fair and square and deserve fair and safe racing, plain and simple. Also revoking licences will not help this problem (maybe other problems but but thats a different conversation) if they were to go back to the AG ranks you still strong swimmers with the same problems, just the incidents would happen a bit earlier on the bike course and they wouldn't get the same amount of attention because they are AG racers and not pros. When I was younger and closer to MOP I've seen the same hyperagressive behaviour back there too.

And yes, these grade-jerks on the bike act worse to women than the men, I've seen it first hand on and off the bike, if you're a women in tri, or have close buddys that are, this is clear as day. So to the people that are saying "not all men", like yeah, of course not all the guys in every race were acting that way, there would be sooooooooo many awful accidents every single race. Yes generalizations aren't great but if it reeeeeeaally bothers you that much maybe try to have such a postive impact on the problem to prove that "not all men" is undeniable. Lets focus on trying to help, call out behviour when you see it, ride safely yourself, make your concerns on safety known to the officals and RDs, and if you actually are FOP you're probably a role model back in your local tri community, so lead by example, actually listen to peoples experiences etc.)

Also, USAT tightening their elite cards doesn't help as many other national governing bodys have loose requirements as well, (speaking as a foreigner).


Cheers,

The other easy pathway is the USAT-points score. It's two races in the top 0.5% of last years performances. It's something like 106 as the score you need to hit. That's fast, for sure, but not really that fast. The scores can also get weird depending on how the race was the previous year and the form of people returning to do it again.

USAT parameters are a joke compared to rest of the world. You can see that by the sheer number of random pros which finish hour(s) after the winners.

Yeah they are loose but I think thats a rather American-centric view.

Spain and Canada essentially have no qualification standards. But you don't see as many of them hours behind because they are much smaller countries with less people doing triathlon. And the BOP Spainish athletes aren't in American races because they race in europe (just like how americans generally race in america).

Other european and south american countries also I presume to have very lax rules. I don't know their criteria off the top of my head but you see germans, dutch, french, brazilians, argentines etc. very far back in the field. But they are also smaller countries and the BOP pros generally race closer to home and not as many at big American races. I think the problem is also compounded with not as many lower tier pro-fields in america, if there were more B or C tier pro-races around I'm sure the slower pros would much rather race those.

It is a big world and a big sport :)

It's not about revoking licenses, but about having the right number of people lining up, and in the right order. We'd need:

-Races to be less overcrowded. That's the first one to fix. It hurts everyone's experience and safety.

-Referees to be more useful/active.

-The creation of elite men and women groups. Said elite groups have referees with them. It's done at many run/tri races already, it works.

-Stricter criteria to become pro. Otherwise one goes to elite.

And on the OP - it is unsafe everywhere and for everyone on an IM course. At the front with the fast careless idiots who race in a selfish way; and at the back with the slow careless idiots who don't know how to ride a tri bike, turn, or descend.
More men are offenders, because more men are at the front, and more men are racing overall. Stupidity knows no gender.

When one gets bumped into, no need to assume it's because of their "freaking fragile male ego". It very well could be, there are idiots out there, but sometimes it just happens.

If someone gets yelled at it's usually because someone is being a douchebag by partaking in drafting or some illegal activity. Part of the blame is 1) morals--race clean or don't race at all 2) if you're yelled at for being in a group...it's not the seemingly aggressive athlete but the drafters who are the douche.

So many athletes out there willing to cheat flat out just because they can't hack it on their own or don't see a draft marshal nearby (ala Kevin Moats). I saw this in my last race & everyone just seemed to be ok with it...as if it was a group ride. Such a crock. These are not "athletes" they are frauds. If someone is pissed at you for drafting with a group and yells--sorry but you have it coming & whatever else they do to break it up. Because you're literally "stealing" their hard work and efforts with your lack of hard work. Ride clean folks!

Something I recognized at kona is that in the US we drive on a different side of the road than in other countries. And not everyone on the course speaks English. Meaning some racers are used to riding on the left and passing on the right, nor know what you are saying. Food for thought.

This is an interestingly American thought.

A significant majority of the world drives on the same side of the road (LHD). And most triathletes that come from a RHD country, come from English native speaking countries.

The fraction of Ironman athletes (i.e. whealthy on a global scale) who live in a RHD country which is non-English native, haven't learned English as a second language, and have not raced/traveled enough to be used to LHD traffic is tiny.

I just checked the Dutch criteria out of curiosity and you can get a pro licence with a top 10 result in an Ironman or Challenge race provided you finished within 8% of the winning time. There are some other possibilities, for example for talents, but they have to submit a cv with results, goals, name of trainer etc and this application will then be handled by the national coach together with the technical director of the Dutch association. Doesn't look that easy imo.

Yeah I'm Dutch and speak English and we also drive on the right hand side, but when I hear someone yelling "On your left" the first thing I think of is that that person tries to convey that something interesting is happening on the left side, like a beautiful scenery. I would rather expect "Attention please" if someone wants to pass.

(Your last point is entirely valid.) After this 'it's the same in Europe' line was trotted out for Valencia (v long start list) a fortnight ago, I looked at the experience of Oceanside (over the years), and Gran Canaria and Valencia (as comparator 'first' race of the 2024 season in Europe)

Well here's the checkback.
Today in MPro (Valencia), 70 men finished within 30 minutes of Bergere. ONLY 5 finished > 30 mins behind. Data not available on how many of the 90 started. But minimal USAT licensed - style tail.
So the USA v European basis for any outrage (@dcpinsonn) is shown in these data. And thus, perhaps, the greater need for a longer gap between MPro and WPro in USA venues to cope with these quasi-pros.

Before that, I would have a look at power data of both 8:30 dude and the pro guys he beated

How is this acceptable? Imagine someone posting: The amount of spiteful women I've encountered over the years is crazy.....routinely aggravated by packs of petty girls complaining.....I had words with them but their attitude is never contrite.....as for the 'not all women' why don't we focus on the actual bitches rather than semantics - typical overly sensitive women.

You'd get kicked off the site.

No they should not "forfeit their cards": hey Rodriguez fails at Oceanside on that measure. But I do think that retaining a Pro licence ought to be dependent on at least one decent performance annually (with exemptions/abeyance for long term injury/rehab). As to power files, I suggest that Andrew Hall (the "8:30 dude") biked alone (maybe some with Chad Bykerk) and ran a 2:54 to finish it. So likely his power will have to be higher than the #28-#35 MPros (same average bike time to Hall's 4:36, which btw was the same speed as Matthews) as they will have benefited from being in a train, some of the time.

As one of those former Elite license holders who many here are saying I was not deserving I will share my thoughts. One is you (not you specifically) cannot compare AG to Pro races. They are separate even though they are on the same course. Many pros are not racing "their own race" like I was when I was FOP AG. They try to stick with a group on the bike and sometimes you blow up which leads to DNF or a shuffle on the run. So times of BOP pro to top AG are not really comparable.

As far as the qualification path. Sure it might be easier than many places but re-qualifying after 3 years is not that easy. I believe it is still needing to finish within 8% of winners score which if one is that far back they will not do (I did not but I turned pro in 2018 so I had the whole COVID seasons and just stopped racing). So sure becoming a pro might be realitively easy but staying one is not. And honestly I think too many people care too much about BOP Pros. How does that impact anyone else? I went pro because I thought it was my only chance and I wanted a new challenge. I knew I was not going to win races but I also wanted to be able to tell my kids that just because you can't win at things does not mean you should not make a jump and challenge yourself.

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Twitter - Instagram

As a MOP athlete with a terrible swim compared to my bike- help me out here. I raced IMTX last Saturday. I spent a lot of my bike split slowly passing people. At one point on the first southbound leg on the Hardy, I could see a pack of 20-30 riders ahead of me bunched up 2-3 wide. It took me about 10 minutes to catch them and when I did, I moved to the center lane to pass them. My NP for the day was 165 and I put in a solid 2-3 minutes at 220+ to get around the pack and put some distance between us. Annoying to see, but all good, or so I think.

However, within another minute I start getting passed by multiple riders on my left who are tight together who then move directly in front of me. I ease up to back off to legal distance, and as I do, I get swallowed up by the pack I just put a big effort in to pass. I am suddenly in the middle of a 3 wide 20-30 person pack and there is no easy or safe way out of it.

At that same time, we pass someone riding on the shoulder yelling at all of us for cheating, which I understand bc if you took a snapshot of me at that moment it definitely looked like I could have been cruising along in that pack for miles.

I eventually just sit up on my base bars, stop pedaling, hope the people behind me are paying enough attention, and let them all pass. Eventually I make another effort to repass (this time on the shoulder on the right side bc the middle lane was congested as well) and it was close enough to the turnaround that I never got repassed once I had the tailwind.

I had zero intentions or desire to draft or cheat, and was only in the pack for a few minutes, but it felt completely unavoidable. I was racing with. other friends and they all had similar experiences. No desire to cheat or draft and yet found it unavoidable without being reckless. If there hadn't been a turnaround and a change in wind direction I legitimately don't know what I would have done. I guess just spent my race going slower than I needed or wanted to to stay entirely behind the pack? I suppose that is the answer, albeit it a frustrating one if that had been the entire day.

All that to say - I wonder how many people in that pack were like me and just caught up and didn't know what to do and how many were intentionally drafting for miles and miles? If you had asked me before Saturday I would have said the latter.

This was pretty much my experience as well. I came out of the water with TONS of people and things got crowded once we hit the Hardy. It was impossible to avoid the packs. I was passed on the right many times and no matter how many times I dropped back or surged ahead I found myself in a pack shortly thereafter. I felt like there was nothing that could be done, I just tried to make sure I was being as safe as possible when I had riders on my left and right, especially when going through the aid stations.

I think this is all great. but as someone who isnt American can someone tell me what the difference between pro and elite and AG and how it could help rider safety? I've seen it mentioned with USAT before but I've never seen it at any race.

I guess I can kinda excuse the slow careless idiots who don't know how to ride a bike, they often don't know better and sometimes things happen and the race conditions are often not at all conducive to riding safely, but we apologize and try to do better next time. But the faster riders who are are at the front of the race should know better. At least for myself its not that I assume every sketchy incident is intentional but its the large number of times someone does something unsafe and I tell them "that was/is sketchy, please stop/dont do it again" and you get hit with tons of expletives or "what are you going to do about it?"s etc. that makes me think its an ego thing. Maybe not always specifically a male ego thing but the overlap on the venn diagram is there. Maybe talking about that isn't going to help solve anything but its good for me to vent my frustration lol.

But circling back I agree that the focus should be on making things safe for everyone, (eg. less crowded courses, better refereeing), and then focus on things that help smaller groups of people (e.g. pro-fields regulation and safety).

Finally going back to the spainish racing, they had Peniscola Infinitri the weekend after Challenge Canaria/70.3 Valencia and in the next 4 weeks have 3 bronze tier races in spain alone Tri Xilxes, Half Pamplona, VI Half Gasteiz for these slower-pros and 70.3 Mallorca, Lanzarote, and Challenge Salou in the same timeframe for the faster pros.


While in the US in that same timeframe you only have the white-lake half for the slower pros and then StG and Chattanooga? While much lower on the tier list of rider safety I would think that with more lower tier racing option that the slower pros would self regulate where they race and solve some of these problems.

Also works to shout, "PASSING. STAY RIGHT."

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

This is sad but 100% true. Double standards.

I personally get more startled by someone yelling something just before they pass me than if they would say nothing and just pass. But to each their own I guess.

I never say “On your left.” If I say anything I might say “Passing on your left.” I’m firmly in the camp that saying anything is more of a startle to the person being passed and leads to them turning to look to their left which makes people tend to veer to the left. As was mentioned… it’s a race so the expectation is that people will be passing you on the left the whole bike ride. If you’re riding on the right and going in a relatively straight line I’m not going to say anything. I’m just going to pass you with as wide a pass as possible. If being passed on your left in the middle of a bike race is surprising to you that’s your problem and you’re in the wrong sport. Usually the only times I say anything is if the pass is going to be a tight squeeze because the lane is more narrow or I’m passing a rider who is passing another rider so we are basically going to be three abreast.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

I only say something if it's needed. If the person is far right and it's a safe pass I just keep going.

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http://www.sfuelsgolonger.com

I think this is all great. but as someone who isnt American can someone tell me what the difference between pro and elite and AG and how it could help rider safety?
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Pro= Stupidly fast people racing for money and have their pro license
Elite= People racing for the overall awards but no professionals
AG= The rest of the riff raff like myself

Here's how it works at some races:
The Pro Race is the pro race. They go first.

If you want to race for an overall podium award, you sign up for the Elite race. In some philosophies, they become ineligible for age group awards. In others, they are the only ones who get AG awards. In doing so, they get their own wave behind the pro race. Some have proposed that these racers are subjected to increased levels of officiating and are eligible for onsite drug testing, if available. Some people sign up for the Elite wave just to get a more clean race.

Age Group is the rest of the field. The people who are doing sport just for the fun of it. Finishing is the goal. Time may or may not be important. Some have suggested that this group could have more relaxed rules.

If there's an elite wave, these (in theory) would be the blokes that would be overtaking the female pros. But, since they are a smaller group, the race organizers would be able to police them more effectively. Even further, they could adjust the send off times behind the pro race to help keep the race more clean.

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

Except, for the most part (read: your non-IM branded events as they're the only events that usually do this), if there are officials, they're usually with the pro race with a single one roaming the entirety of the AG field.

There's a huge gap for needed officials in the US -- so most races make do with the very few that exist.

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

Food for thought.

1.) If you have not seen the exact description of the behavior The Guardian is describing, congratulations. For those of us who unfortunately deal with this on a regular basis...it is exhibited, by men, *all the fucking time*. It's sadly accurate. It happens in damn near *every* race I participate in, and it's *always* fellow men.

2.) I would hope you're able to see the difference in the use of language in the original post (because it is specific to certain individuals as opposed to an entire gender), versus how you have described in your comment.

TL;DR -- the comment stands as is.

Carry on.

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

By USAT definitions, Pro and Elite's are the same thing. "Pro's" as we consider and call them, have a "USAT Elite License" or a Pro card in other words. In USAT's eyes, they are Elite's.

Age group is everyone else. There will be on occasion (at some non IM branded races) an "Open" category and dedicated wave (first to go off or directly after the pro's) where the FOP age groupers will typically race for the overall win or overall age group win. This allows a fast 20 year old to race head to head with a 35 year old and not try to race each other from different waves that could have started 30 min apart. If you race in the open category, there are awards for the open category but you are ineligible for your individual age group award. Since olympic non draft legal races have significantly declined over the last several years and the adoption of rolling starts, I see less and less "open waves" for FOP age groupers. It's not nearly as common as it once was 10 years ago.

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There's a huge gap for needed officials in the US -- so most races make do with the very few that exist
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Of course. Part of that reason is that we pay race officials at the average race like crap. I had a friend who was interested in USAT officiating. She went through the motions. However, she had to work several races before she was eligible to get paid for her work. Then, she would have been eligible to collect money for her work to the terms of like $100 for several hours of effort (I might have the number wrong but the concept is that it's insultingly low).

I'd pay an extra $5 per race and have all of that money go to the officiating team. Even in small races, that's enough of a fee to get more officials. But if USAT continues to make the process of becoming an official AND continues to pay them like crap, we're never going to have enough. It's another improvement idea for the clan to consider

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

Yep.

But when USAT is in the level of financial crunch that they have sat in for the last few years...they need to both raise revenues and cut expenses.

They're trying the revenue thing (remember the Gold membership requirement to be a member of Team USA?) and, well, the members have spoken.

I highly doubt the pay is going to increase for officials given the current financial position of the federation.

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

By USAT definitions, Pro and Elite's are the same thing. "Pro's" as we consider and call them, have a "USAT Elite License" or a Pro card in other words. In USAT's eyes, they are Elite's.

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For sure. But, there are races that have an "Elite" wave, which goes off just as I described.

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

Yes, its the same thing as I described as the "open" wave. I've seen the elite and open wave naming used interchangeably while no one in that wave is technically an "elite" by USAT standards.

Hence why people get so confused as everyone just calls them what they want to call them.

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But when USAT is in the level of financial crunch that they have sat in for the last few years...they need to both raise revenues and cut expenses.

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I won't argue that. Does USAT block race directors from offering more money to the officials? Could the RD allocate some of the race fee to give directly above and beyond what USAT hands out?

If word got out that officiation a single IM distance race yielded $1000 on the day, I'd bet there'd be an increase in supply for referees.

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

I'm relatively certain that pricing is set by USAT for a daily stipend, with potential negotiation for payment of travel / lodging expenses.

It's $100 for sprint / Olympic events, $150 for middle / long course, with a bonus $75 for head officials.

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

It's your house and I wouldn't want any post to be removed, everything should be there for people to make their own judgements. I enjoy the different viewpoints and discussion that goes on, I just felt in this thread some of the posts started getting towards mob mentality.

Raising the issue of poor behavior in races is good, painting with a broad brush on accusations is not. I have seen men race like assholes. It doesn't make me think men race like that *all the fucking time*. 99% of the time everyone is racing with great respect towards each other. There has been a fair amount of women in this thread raising their concerns about male racers. That doesn't make me think that women complain about men all the time. Some might define that kind of generalization as sexism. Some might also define the former generalization as sexism as well.



As to the language used, I don't see a meaningful difference. If someone posted about the amount of complaints from womens racers towards mens racers would this be allowed to stand? I would hope that it's allowed to be posted, but it would certainly be met with hostility. Language taken from the original post and added the snippets.



Compared to the original post for context:

I, respectfully, dissent.

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

Cycling has categories. It wouldn't be too hard to have a 3 category system in triathlon. Cat 3 is where everyone starts, basically reserved for first timers, they start in the last wave. Cat 2 is if you've done 1 IM or 2 70.3's or 3 Oly/Sprints. Cat 1 is if you reach a certain USAT score. Then Elite/Pro is can have a tighter entry requirement.

The issue right now is if you're not a Pro/Elite you're in the base category, along with people doing their very first race. Small races can say Cat 1/2/3 and just have one field. Other races can have 2 or 3 separate start waves. Idk just throwing it out there.

Hahah that is an excellent response.

You've hit upon the solution in your comment. Call out your pass from far enough back that it isn't startling. For my approach to work, I have to call it out well in advance to allow the person(s) I'm passing time to register that they've heard something AND to react to it before I get so close I don't have room to react if they do something silly.

I NEVER knew this, lol. I've wondered why people in my AG have race in an Open division and what that meant.

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http://www.sfuelsgolonger.com

On a course like IMTX, I still don't see that as viable. I was in the front third on the bike on my second trip south on Hardy and it was just a long line of riders, to the point where I stayed to the left and was in a "passing lane," while keeping my eyes back to see if I needed to slot in so others could pass me legally.

During my marathon walkabout, I talked with a woman that had someone say "On your left" and she said she ended up veering to the right and running into another rider sending her to the ground.

Back in the day there used to be a ton of great short course races with an "elite amateur" or "open" division. Some of them even had prize money, and the competition was fierce. I remember one race I went 1:53 (20/56/35) on a legit Olympic course and placed 3rd behind two other amateurs. I believe I won 500 bucks that day.

Nice brag...but how does this contributes to the topic that is being discussed?