I was 4th to Jalabert’s 3rd at 70.3 Worlds 2011 in M40-44. He doesn’t exactly have a clean reputation either.

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-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
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Given their history…not something to shout about.

I don’t understand why an ex world tour pro would want to move to amateur triathlon racing against a bunch of middle aged men most of whom would have been working in an office 40+ hours a week whilst they were training day in day out. Sad.

I won’t knock a guy (or woman) who loves competing for competing in events that are available to them - nothing wrong with that at all, it’s great. That said, both of these dudes have known or highly suspected doping pasts - I have a problem with that.

Both gentlemen performed quite well at the 2019 70.3 WC at Nice and both of them received quite loud booing when picking their awards. Audience was quite aware of their reputation

I have no problem with them racing. And winning.

Good to hear, thank you

They’ve become older and probably triathlon helps them as a habit to stay fit & healthy. Let them be tested and that’s it. Follow the process. Similarly you might have young guys who’re just trying if they’re good enough to be pro for YEARS, probably “working” a few hours a week.

Only really one answer as to why..."ego" and they can't race the top pros at this age and win. Maybe I should have put my post all in pink? The question now is, can you consider these "legit" wins or not? They wouldn't be where they are today without the past--something the others haven't participated in...those benefits never go away. Certainly a good debate to which I have no clear answer.

Good topic, and I thought of this looking at the AG results. I think this issue was discussed years ago here when Lance wanted to compete in mountain bike races and triathlons after his "retirement" from cycling, but could not because of his lifetime ban from any sport. I think a fair solution to previous dopers is to allow them to compete in whatever races they want, but no placing, awards, qualification for Worlds spots. They can compete to compete with themselves. It has been proven that any advantage gained from previous years of doping carries future benefits. I think in these 3 cases both extremes were wrong. Lance should be allowed to compete in whatever races he wants, and Jalabert and Vinokourov should not be racing in a World Championship. Just my opinion, but I think this creates fairness to all.

I mostly agree with this take. If they don't have some kind of lifetime ban (which is weird anyway) I don't see a problem. I would think given their factual indictable histories, we would prevent them from being in positions where they take spots away from other "clean" athletes in their AGs (clean is debatable though). People need some kind of punishment, but if it is served and there is nothing prohibiting entering a race then ce la vie.

Then again, we are talking about some of the most competitive people on the planet. I am not surprised in the least they still don't give AF and need to take these podiums to fill up their ego. Part and parcel with the type of people we are discussing.

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X2. If I had a full time job and came second to either of these two ex dopers I would be well pissed off. Coming second to a clean ex pro would be quite the brag I would have thought.

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He who understands the WHY, will understand the HOW.

Isn't that true for any ex-doper?
Or would you be fine with a full time AG ex doper (or suspected doper)? But not an ex pro suspected doper?

Messick has never found a doper or despot he didn't love. A perfect sendoff.

Good.

Technically there's nothing to prevent them from competing so they have every right to be there, but we can express our feelings about it.

My question is why you are worried about them only and not the 100's of other doped age groupers who are also at the start line at Nice or 70.3 Worlds, or ITU worlds.

At the end of the day, all of the field is slow relative to Sam Laidlaw (even Jan Frodeno was). Age group competition is just concocted competition to keep more of us engaged. If age group competition is interesting to us desk jockeys (or whatever we do in our day to day lives), why can't it be interesting for ex pro athletes?

I'll call you out on it, and its that you resent their past, and don't want them there, because they are stealing positions from those of us who don't have their UCI pro young working life experience (inclusive of everything they got injected with).

Our working life experience is different, but does not mean they can't play in the age grouper world, if they play by the age grouper rules. Part of why they ended up with such massive margins in Nice vs at Finland (Jalabert only got 5th place) is because they can descend like slalom skiers. We can't take that away from them on account of the doping past. They are probably the two best bike handlers in the entire field at Nice (remember Vino was the guy breaking away on the decent to Gap and it was chasing him that cause Beloki to crash and Lance to go cross country).

I also do get that it matters more for someone like you who may be going for podiums, vs the rest of us who are pack fodder.

Just stating the facts from today: both showed up today at the final ceremony. Neither Vinokurov nor Jala were booed. Quite the opposite, Jala has received the 3rd biggest applause, after Sam and the Bob Knuckey, the oldest finisher. He’s quite beloved in France.

You're missing the point completely. I'm not in the least jealous because Jalabert and Vinokourov are ex pro cyclists who have now turned to triathlon... good for them. The part that people resent is that they are allowed to compete after being suspended for doping offenses. Period. I don't care if they were Nascar drivers, if they tested positive and were given punishment for doping i dont feel they should be able to COMPETE in sports again. As I stated in a previous post, I think they should be able to participate, just not be involved in competitive results of any kind.

Re: "the 100s of doped AG athletes lined up", if you know this for fact I suggest you contact USADA, WADA etc with specific complaints so these athletes can be tested and given the appropriate penalties. Otherwise don't paint the sport as a dope fest.

Not saying I love Vino nor Jaja. They are not banned for life so they can compete in any wada signatory sport. Lance is banned for life for any world level or feeder level events that can get him to world's at any WADA sport so if Ironman allowed him in to compete here you would have a point.

You are right that I have no proof about the 100's of age groupers currently doping just like we have no proof if Jaja or Vino currently are doping.

But today's rules allows them to race after sitting in the sin bin. Hate the system for allowing that. Heck Vino took the London Olympic gold after sitting out his suspension ...that race was tailor made for Cav who most recently raced on Vino's Protour team !!!

The Olympic games let Vino back in after sitting out his time. Lots of former dopers like Justin Gatlin come back and win medals at the highest level. This is just meaningless slow old age groupers we are worried about. Relative to the Olympics, age group racing means not much at all.

IM should implement the rule that anyone that has raced ‘pro’ in any of the 3 sports is not eligible to compete in AG events. It’s honestly not a place for former cycling pros to reside. Kinda sad honestly.

I would agree with much of what you (Johnny21) say except the part about them not being able to compete again unless it was a Lance-like lifetime ban where he sorta has it coming to him just for being a d*** to everyone. I would amend this to read more like they can compete--just not for any sort of National or World titles. Like they have for the trans -open division...you can have the formerly doped tossed in there but no slots to anything. We need harsher penalties & if you have that riding on the line from day 1 as a pro or not--and cross it, well, you should have thought about all the future ramifications before you did it. I'm not sure about the part about tainted food sources though--that's a sticky question I have no answer for--because it does happen.

As for Paul, I actually see some of his points, but disagree with some of them. Rationalizing they won because they can decend better than anyone, I don't agree with. Let them compete--fine...just no titles (National or World). Sin bin or not--the past gave that permanent advantage. But I don't make the rules...we can only comment on them. I have a friend who was knocked off the Kona podium last minute by JJ--in 6th...think that didn't strike a chord knowing that past didn't have anything to do with it? Yeah...think again.

I hope they don't. No valid reason for a former pro to not be a competitor in an AG events. So, you are saying that someone who was a pro swimmer in their teens/20s or pro miler in their 20s can't come back in the their 50s and compete in the AG? A female swimmer who competed as a pro in her college years, retired to to raise a family, and take on a desk job until her 40s and 50s is no longer eligible to compete in AG events? That's ridiculous.

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My marathon PR is "under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."

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Just to win easily, sometimes that's fun. As pros they never got to do that.
To become the talk of the town (ST forum) about how impressive it is for former pros to dominate amateurs.

It's purely for ego, they obviously aren't looking to be challenged or they would be doing something else.

This makes no sense to me. Why shouldn't they be allowed to compete? Because they won the genetic lottery and are too good?

AG is reserved for those with mediocre talent?

How could something like EPO or transfusions that boost the oxygen carrying capacity of the blood never go away? Red blood cells only live a few months.

Dope.

Take Vino as an example. Before the funny stuff he was a much better cyclist than you or me. Yes from 15 to 20 years ago he was doing more training and getting fitter with a little help. But he stopped, he had is career. He was riding a bit, but nothing crazy. His run sucked.

Now, he trains like a mad man. I have rider friends in Monaco who say they see him more often than the riders. He is constantly on his bike. I suspect that has a lot more to do with his performance than a blood bag of the past. Some ex pro cyclists often have a LOT of time on their hands. This is a bigger factor than their past. Now, is he on a AGer special regimen ? That is another story and could have a lot more impact the the stuff 20 years ago.

Replying in general.

Let's just forget this ridiculous AG system. Pros, ex-pros, semi-pros, elite amateurs, week-end warriors, tourists, young or old, all ranked in one open division. The first across the line wins the race and that's all. Jalabert and Vino are still ahead of me but not on the podium (except maybe for the local independant race) and not "stealing" any fake podium, medal or qualification from me.

Problem solved.

Am I the only one hating it when a guy who went 4th MPRO in a qualifying event can't take part in the IMWC when a nobody like myself can despite finishing two or three hours later?

FYI, former UCI pro’s raced and won the 2023 UCI Master’s world championships road race in Scotland. Vino won his RR. Johnny Hoogerland (of TdF barb wire fame) won the 40+ race. A few other former pro’s raced and did well. Cipollini was signed up for 50+ but either DNF’d or didn’t show.

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Kevin

http://kevinmetcalfe.dreamhosters.com
My Strava

problem solved = adopt CAT license system of bike racing.

So Vino is now the world 50-54 champ in cycling and Ironman. We just need him to show up to FINA Masters swimming worlds in Qatar in February. Not sure what the equivalent would be for running !!! Imagine this place imploding if he did that (but of course there is no chance he does anything at any event at FINA swim masters worlds so the fish around here are safe).

Vino was on the start list but did not start in the TT, I guess the concurrence was stronger, a win not obvious.

It was funny that Jeannie Longo was beaten in the road race the first time for years.

Here, from time to time actual tri pos, including Hawaii winner, participate at local bicycle races. Usually they get beaten by the strong amateur cyclists. Sometimes one wins the Hobby class (comparable to cat 5 in the US), which is legal having no cycling license, but somehow ridiculous.

Good for them but not really important to me as I don't get all the celebrity/hero worshipping that a lot of people do. To me they're just a couple older dudes who still want to compete in some way.

As for their pasts, as far as I'm concerned if they've served their time and they're not banned right now, what's it to me if they compete? There should be testing and if they pass then no issues.

Again, it doesn't mean you need to idolize them. I think that's where Americans in particular get in trouble, they always need to be worshipping someone or something, and then when they find out they're not perfect its 'hang them from their nuts'.

The only purpose of AGs is to keep the older customers. They want something (trinket award, opportunity to race at "championships") or they aren't going to race as often or at all. Obviously if you are directing a race and you want customers (especially when these younger people seem less interested in racing, even in their prime) you will give the customers what they want. The 4th male pro will keep trying to race, or if you are the race director, nobody cares about the 4th male pro. Mostly nobody even knows they are.

It just is what it is. Go back 40 years ago and it wasn't like this. Much fewer awards were given out, we didn't have to find a way to make almost everyone some kind of an a award winner. Winning was just being in the race.

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There are a bunch of "purists" losing their shit over Lachlan Morton taking on some of the bikepacking courses and taking down records. He just took over a day off Mike Halls Tour Divide record and had to announce that he wasn't going for an official record due to being ineligible because of his film crew following him. Some of the folks don't like a Pro Tour guy messing on their bikepacking heroes.
Personally I think it is awesome.
Lachlan Morton completes Tour Divide route in 12 days, 12 hours, and 21 minutes - Velo (outsideonline.com)

with a 1h13 IM swim, no real risk to the FINA contenders

I couldn’t care less who ends up in the AG ranks. Former pro triathletes, former pro cyclists, former PED users, whatever. If they’re eligible to race it is what it is. I’ve been in a race where Tim Deboom won our AG by a lot. The guy won the Ironman World Championship back to back in 2001 and 2002. Is he of similar ability to the rest of us in our AG? Nope. Did any of us have a chance against him? Nope. Do I fault the guy for racing AG when he was in his 40s and no longer a competitive professional? Nope.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

Maybe just trying to squeeze an extra ego return on their blood doping investment.

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"FTP is a bit 2015, don't you think?" - Gustav Iden

Here we go again with this.....

I don't understand why people get bent out of shape.

Ex dopers race and the reason they were able to get into a position to do PEDs is bc their engines are HUGE. Bigger and better than 99% of the people that have ever posted on ST and then they were able to dope.

If the majority of people whining about them racing even had a chance against them I could understand but the majority of people railing against it don't have the engine to be in contention with them, don't possess the bike handling skills to hang going downhill, don't possess the p/wt ratio to hang uphill and haven't put in the hours or time over the years to compete with them.

These two are probably around 5w/kg on the climbs even at their age bc they were 6.5+ w/kg when in full on pro mode. How many of us have 5w/kg hanging around in our back pocket at 50+.

These two were riding 800+ hours year for > 15yr and probably spent a good chunk of that at 1000+ h/yr. A well structured Ag athlete is in that 500-750h/yr range w/ a lot more life stress and a lot less recovery availability.

Some people have an abundance of genetic talent, some of those were further enhanced. some people have an abundance of time, some have both, some have none.

At the end of the day you have to go out and make YOUR best race happen regardless of who else is in the field or whom you're competing against.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

If I recall correctly Tim deBoom won the 1994, ITU Worlds as a 20-24 age grouper too before he turned pro. So it is full circle for a guy like that going back to where he came from!

Maybe they don't want to race middle aged men.

Maybe they just want to see what they can do.

There are several current cycling pros who have said they want to do an IM and these are guys without big egos.

I don't see how ex-pros are any different from the rest of us.

Racing is fun!!

It's fun to race against the best of your category.

They both still make a living from sport, this is advertising.
Probably tax deductible.

At a personal level- I had a poor to mediocre race!
Again!!!

(Great vacation though).
Fun bike!!

It's preferable to get beaten by ex-pros (and dopers), than to get beaten by Gary from Indiana.

At least it sounds more epic!!

I love what Lachlan is doing.

I also think that Christoph Strasser is brilliant, and love what he is doing in TCR, RAM etc, however, he had so much media attention, for much of TCR there was a car just ahead of him, when he stopped, there was a film crew in the supermarket, dot watchers were following his every movement - is it really that different to what Lachlan did on the Tour divide?

and with one bloody stupid comment you just invalidated all top age group athletes - well done

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I think the main annoying factor is not the "ex-UCI pro" part but the "ex-dopers" part, which still disturbs.
Jalabert was EPO positive in 1998, retrospectively tested in 2004. This became public later on (2013 I think).
Vino had to justify relations with Fuentes and Ferrari, and was convicted in 2007 for blood doping.

I agree with this.

I don't think we should forget that they were dopers.

In particular, I am not condoning their commercial activities in sports.

But on another level, they are just aging guys who like to race triathlon..

I have a bigger problem with Lance.

That guy went way above and beyond the dirt and corruption of his era.

And Lance continues to make more money off of sports, than the people whose careers he destroyed.

So...

To further your point:

It's not racing AG triathlon.
It's not simply being a doper. (That era was rife)
It' IS ABOUT continuing to make money off of your doping history.
And not attempting to make amends with those who were harmed.

You're saying that even if they had been clean during their pro cycling career, they would still be winning their AGs.

Be that as it may, it's just a part of the problem. My main issue is different. Isn't it simply a bit distasteful that former cheaters are putting themselves in the spotlight? Isn't clean sport an ideal that's being a little tarnished here when you put a doping celebrity in an amateur race?

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"FTP is a bit 2015, don't you think?" - Gustav Iden

Yeah I was pissed to have to stand on an awards stage next to Jalabert.

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-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project

I hear this sentiment but my belief, with triathlon, is that somebody without a ton of natural talent can get quite good at the sport by putting the hours in. Triathlon seems to reward the you get what you put in mindset more than a lot of other sports. I really believe that someone with average talent can put in the work required to turn pro. So that's why it irks me if someone with above average talent doped. Clearly someone without a lot of talent could dope too & could climb to a decently high level in this sport. Plus you reap the benefits of doping for years after. I don't think we should be tolerant to dopers. There are claims that there is a good amount of AG doping in the sport. I think sentiments like this normalizes it. I would like to see a more strict policy for those who are caught. The age group categories are large and diverse. There's always going to be people competing with varying levels of talent. Fine. What separates it for me is someone who decides to cheat. The clean talented person should win. The first clean talented or average talented person that finishes right behind one of these cheaters will never know if they actually would have been beaten if they had both done things the right way. The margins are thin in AG racing. Doping for years on the bike sets you up well in a sport where you spend a ton of time in the saddle.

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I think there are a couple of reasons that Strasser gets accepted so easily, the first being TransCon is in Europe and the Euro's don't seem care as much about star power,associated media that comes with it.The cycling culture,all cycling,is ingrained in their culture so they have a different mindset.Strasser is seen also "as one of us" by the Ultra-cycling community and I liken him to Yiannis Kouros in ultra-running running where he is just in his own world and so different "rules" apply.You just have to say "Strasser" and the cycling world knows and adjusts the conversation accordingly.

In the USA and Canada (and to some extent here in Oz) all that stuff is more frowned upon and Lael Wilcox felt the ire of the purists when she had her film crew follow her for the Tour Divide a few years ago.It got pretty silly and you could see it play out in her documentary. Just stupid for my mind.

People get all tribal about their chosen sport,niche in that sport and/or their favourite athlete (think Lionel) and they will defend their "Tribe". You can see that it the undercurrent of comments when TransAm Bikepackers take on RAAM and vice versa. All this talk about one couldn't do the other. It is silly and is why I love that Strasser and Morton are doing what they are. The level of competition is rising dramatically with the inclusion of these guys in Bikepacking and the "old ways" of doing things in the Mike Hall era are coming to an end. We punters who are following the development of Bikepacking can learn a hell of a lot from what the elite cyclists are bringing in all aspects of that niche of unsupported cycle races.

To the topic at hand concerning Vino and Jalabert,during the coverage of La Vuelta here in Oz last night, Simon Gerrans was talking up Vino's recent Ironman age group win in Nice and told of training with him in the past. He mentioned that going for the "morning run" with Vino was hard as he left nothing out there and always pushed the pace,putting the hurt into everyone.He spoke very fondly of that time.I would be interested to know if, in triathlon, the Euro's are more "forgiving" of past dopers and Pro Tour guys in the age group ranks than the folks from the USA/Canada.

France & Jalabert situation :
1/ As a former worshipped champion, Jalabert is sort of untouchable in France and still receives tons of support and praise. He's still commenting the Tour de France every year on public TV. During triathlons, he's cheered like a half-god, gets a lot of positive attention from the speaker and the public, and you can hear "allez Jaja" everywhere along the run.
2/ There has been actually more coverage in the general media about Jalabert being "Ironman world champion" (of his amateur age group, not always mentioned) than about Sam Laidlow being the 1st french pro world champion.

Most people seem to be happy such a celebrity is racing alongside them. Some triathletes (me included) are uncomfortable with him winning his AG, but I think we are a minority. He doped, got caught, denied (using the "they doped me without me knowing, i didn't do it" strategy), lied, never apologized, said he doesn't regret anything, and of course never became a clear advocate of anti-doping.

Given how serious he is currently, why would you think he is not currently taking blood bags? Obviously he has the experience and expertise at it, and the Astana team medical resources at his disposal, and there is zero chance that autologous blood bag doping would get caught by WTC, so why would anyone think he is not currently doping? His morals have changed? He clearly is intensely serious about the competition, so I certainly wouldn't give him the benefit of the doubt that he has suddenly decided to abstain from performance enhancing techniques that he has known his whole career.

Separately, whatever came of the Spanish cyclist who was caught doping and came over to triathlon and quite quickly became top of amateur field. He seemed to disappear as quickly as he came onto the scene. I remember at one Kona podium the second place finisher wore a DOPERS SUCK white t-shirt next to him. Who was that doper and what happened to him? Why'd he vacate the scene so suddenly?

Let's just say I'm not nominating him as a candidate for sainthood.

Here's a little background on that story:

https://www.slowtwitch.com/..._his_point_4440.html

And Sam had to respond to some journalist putting them in the same basket:
https://www.trimes.org/2023/09/sam-laidlow-vs-jalabert/


Sam (translated by me): 'I appreciate the publication, but I don't want to be associated with someone who cheated in sport. I've worked way too hard for this to happen. He may be a great athlete, but we clearly don't have the same values'


Most of the comments I've seen following Sam's response are in support of him, and critisizing the media who try to 'ride' Jalabert's public notoriety, but also Jalabert for not being vocal about the smaller status of his win (age group, not overall) and having a big ego that he needs to feed.