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IM: How to go from sub-13 to sub-11?
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For those of you who have managed to improve your Ironman time from around 13 hours to under 11, what were the most important changes you made that allowed you to get to the next level? Could be training changes (volume, intensity, frequency etc) OR race day changes.

(My first Ironman was 12:49 and last year I managed 11:12. I want to break 11 hours this year and am looking for some tips on how to get there.)
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Re: IM: How to go from sub-13 to sub-11? [samtridad] [ In reply to ]
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Having your S/B/R splits would help.
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Re: IM: How to go from sub-13 to sub-11? [samtridad] [ In reply to ]
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Without knowing your splits, you’re probably looking at something like 1:15 / 5:45 / 3:50 and 10 min of transitions. You’ll want at least a sub 3:15 open marathon and a good aero position on the bike, and plenty of calories on race day in order to not blow up. I think most people lose a ton of time on the run due to not managing calorie intake properly, moreso than pacing too hard on the bike.
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Re: IM: How to go from sub-13 to sub-11? [imsparticus] [ In reply to ]
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imsparticus wrote:
Having your S/B/R splits would help.

Sure. Swim 1:08, Bike 5:51, Run 4:03.
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Re: IM: How to go from sub-13 to sub-11? [samtridad] [ In reply to ]
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Age? Weight? How long in the sport? How many hours per week do you train? Bike setup?

Let food be thy medicine...
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Re: IM: How to go from sub-13 to sub-11? [JackStraw13] [ In reply to ]
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JackStraw13 wrote:
Age? Weight? How long in the sport? How many hours per week do you train? Bike setup?

Age 48; Weight 158 pounds this morning; 10 years in the sport, first IM 2015; 9-12 hours per week training; 2009 Cervelo P2 with HED deep-rim front wheel and brand-new FLO deep-rim rear wheel (haven't raced on the FLO wheel yet).
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Re: IM: How to go from sub-13 to sub-11? [samtridad] [ In reply to ]
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samtridad wrote:
JackStraw13 wrote:
Age? Weight? How long in the sport? How many hours per week do you train? Bike setup?


Age 48; Weight 158 pounds this morning; 10 years in the sport, first IM 2015; 9-12 hours per week training; 2009 Cervelo P2 with HED deep-rim front wheel and brand-new FLO deep-rim rear wheel (haven't raced on the FLO wheel yet).

Based on what you wrote here, it seems like the most straightforward answer to your question is to train more. 12-15 hours per week, rather than 9-12, would probably do the trick. But, of course, a lot depends on how you train. There's a lot of details missing too. How did the races unfold? What were the courses and conditions? For instance, if your 11:12 was IMWI, my advice is to do IMFL. That's a good 30 minutes right there. What is your nutrition strategy and did you stick to it? What are your stand-alone times for the marathon or half marathon?
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Re: IM: How to go from sub-13 to sub-11? [Changpao] [ In reply to ]
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Changpao wrote:

Based on what you wrote here, it seems like the most straightforward answer to your question is to train more. 12-15 hours per week, rather than 9-12, would probably do the trick. But, of course, a lot depends on how you train. There's a lot of details missing too. How did the races unfold? What were the courses and conditions? For instance, if your 11:12 was IMWI, my advice is to do IMFL. That's a good 30 minutes right there. What is your nutrition strategy and did you stick to it? What are your stand-alone times for the marathon or half marathon?

The races were all IM Canada (first two in Whistler, third in Penticton). I'll be racing Penticton again this year and my goal is sub-11 on that course. I'm sure there are faster courses out there, but I don't have the budget right now to fly to a race (I can drive to Penticton in a couple of hours).

Nutrition strategy was Clif Bars and Gatorade on the bike; then Maurten gels, salt tabs, water on the run. I mostly used on-course nutrition, but brought my own Clif Bars. I ate six of them during the six-hour bike.

A 12 hour training week for is 3 hours swim, 6 hours bike, 3 hours run. I can't find that amount of time every week, but leading up to Penticton I am trying to hit that most weeks.
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Re: IM: How to go from sub-13 to sub-11? [samtridad] [ In reply to ]
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Definitely bump up the volume to a minimum of 16 hours with most of the added time devoted to cycling. Get your bike stronger and that should improve your bike and you’ll be in better shape for the run. Swim time is decent. Is that a comfortable 1:08 or are you killing yourself on the swim? What race did you do last year?

Let food be thy medicine...
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Re: IM: How to go from sub-13 to sub-11? [samtridad] [ In reply to ]
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Bike...Bike....Bike


Swim is respectable and run is respectable and will get better if you bike faster.
Others may disagree. May be position/fit, may be conditioning may be strength, but it ain't the bike.
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Re: IM: How to go from sub-13 to sub-11? [samtridad] [ In reply to ]
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Which version of IMC did you find easier?

http://www.fitspeek.com the Fraser Valley's fitness, wellness, and endurance sports podcast
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Re: IM: How to go from sub-13 to sub-11? [JackStraw13] [ In reply to ]
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JackStraw13 wrote:
Definitely bump up the volume to a minimum of 16 hours with most of the added time devoted to cycling. Get your bike stronger and that should improve your bike and you’ll be in better shape for the run. Swim time is decent. Is that a comfortable 1:08 or are you killing yourself on the swim? What race did you do last year?

As long as it's a wetsuit swim, the 1:08 is a comfortable cruising pace. I did IMC Penticton last year.
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Re: IM: How to go from sub-13 to sub-11? [Hydrosloth] [ In reply to ]
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Hydrosloth wrote:
Which version of IMC did you find easier?

I found Penticton easier, but I was better prepared for that one. Whistler was beautiful, although it snowed at the top of Callaghan during the bike, which was less beautiful.
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Re: IM: How to go from sub-13 to sub-11? [samtridad] [ In reply to ]
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You are definitely capable of this and your previous experience is valuable. A 400-500 mile week on the bike at 7-6 weeks out and at least three 50+ mile weeks of running in your peak training period. Sub 11 is a great goal but you need to push beyond 15 hours per week for your biggest training weeks.
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Re: IM: How to go from sub-13 to sub-11? [samtridad] [ In reply to ]
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samtridad wrote:
imsparticus wrote:
Having your S/B/R splits would help.


Sure. Swim 1:08, Bike 5:51, Run 4:03.

That is 11:02 right there, granted you need to add transitions.

Your bike split stands out as the weakest link.

If you are a typical AGer, smart decisions can probably take a chunk of time off.

What kind of power do you race at ?
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Re: IM: How to go from sub-13 to sub-11? [STRINATION] [ In reply to ]
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STRINATION wrote:
You are definitely capable of this and your previous experience is valuable. A 400-500 mile week on the bike at 7-6 weeks out and at least three 50+ mile weeks of running in your peak training period. Sub 11 is a great goal but you need to push beyond 15 hours per week for your biggest training weeks.

400-500 miles of bike training for me is about 20-25 hours. I just don't have that amount of time for training.
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Re: IM: How to go from sub-13 to sub-11? [marcag] [ In reply to ]
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marcag wrote:
samtridad wrote:
imsparticus wrote:
Having your S/B/R splits would help.


Sure. Swim 1:08, Bike 5:51, Run 4:03.


That is 11:02 right there, granted you need to add transitions.

Your bike split stands out as the weakest link.

If you are a typical AGer, smart decisions can probably take a chunk of time off.

What kind of power do you race at ?

I don't have a power meter, so I don't know what my power is. I've been going by RPE.
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Re: IM: How to go from sub-13 to sub-11? [samtridad] [ In reply to ]
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samtridad wrote:
marcag wrote:
samtridad wrote:
imsparticus wrote:
Having your S/B/R splits would help.


Sure. Swim 1:08, Bike 5:51, Run 4:03.


That is 11:02 right there, granted you need to add transitions.

Your bike split stands out as the weakest link.

If you are a typical AGer, smart decisions can probably take a chunk of time off.

What kind of power do you race at ?


I don't have a power meter, so I don't know what my power is. I've been going by RPE.

Bingo. Invest in a power meter and use it to focus your bike training and I’ll all but guarantee a sub 11.

Let food be thy medicine...
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Re: IM: How to go from sub-13 to sub-11? [marcag] [ In reply to ]
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marcag wrote:
samtridad wrote:
imsparticus wrote:
Having your S/B/R splits would help.


Sure. Swim 1:08, Bike 5:51, Run 4:03.

That is 11:02 right there, granted you need to add transitions.

Your bike split stands out as the weakest link.

If you are a typical AGer, smart decisions can probably take a chunk of time off.

What kind of power do you race at ?

Isn’t Penticton a pretty hilly course? That would be a top 10% bike at courses like WI/LP, but would need closer to 3:50 run for that.
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Re: IM: How to go from sub-13 to sub-11? [Nick2413] [ In reply to ]
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Nick2413 wrote:
marcag wrote:
samtridad wrote:
imsparticus wrote:
Having your S/B/R splits would help.


Sure. Swim 1:08, Bike 5:51, Run 4:03.




Isn’t Penticton a pretty hilly course? That would be a top 10% bike at courses like WI/LP, but would need closer to 3:50 run for that.

I was exactly at the 10% line for both bike split and run split; they were both right at 150th/1500 racers.
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Re: IM: How to go from sub-13 to sub-11? [samtridad] [ In reply to ]
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What tires do you use?
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Re: IM: How to go from sub-13 to sub-11? [samtridad] [ In reply to ]
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Volume: If you're able to hang out at 12 hours/week or even 12-15 hours/week you should be able to get there. What's your weekly running mileage?

I would keep the swim wherever it is now. Marginal gains for the amount of investment. The bike/run have the most room for improvement. I would pick volume over quality but in terms of quality think specificity. A lot of people training for the 140.6 distance are hammering a bike session @ ~Sprint effort each week without a ton of volume. Aim for 2 bike workouts/week. 1 mid-week threshold session with good volume and your long ride (build from 1.5-4ish hours @ 140.6 during the training plan).
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Re: IM: How to go from sub-13 to sub-11? [jimatbeyond] [ In reply to ]
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jimatbeyond wrote:
What tires do you use?

Conti GP5000 at the last IM.
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Re: IM: How to go from sub-13 to sub-11? [dcpinsonn] [ In reply to ]
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dcpinsonn wrote:
Volume: If you're able to hang out at 12 hours/week or even 12-15 hours/week you should be able to get there. What's your weekly running mileage?

3 hours of running equates to around 20 miles per week at the moment. I'm planning to push that up to around 30 miles per week over the next few weeks. I tend to pick up ankle/knee injuries if I run much more than that.
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Re: IM: How to go from sub-13 to sub-11? [samtridad] [ In reply to ]
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you get your best bang for buck in running... 30 miles is even low. perhaps train for an open marathon that takes place 2 months before the IM... typical bq person does about 50mpw+
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Re: IM: How to go from sub-13 to sub-11? [samtridad] [ In reply to ]
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A 12 hour training week for is 3 hours swim, 6 hours bike, 3 hours run. I can't find that amount of time every week, but leading up to Penticton I am trying to hit that most weeks.[/quote]
If you can keep your 10h per week year round and have a 4-6 week 13-15h build with mainly bike volume ramp my guess is that would do it.

The correct answer though is more volume as hard as it is to accept that.
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Re: IM: How to go from sub-13 to sub-11? [samtridad] [ In reply to ]
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Latex tubes?
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Re: IM: How to go from sub-13 to sub-11? [samtridad] [ In reply to ]
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samtridad wrote:


Age 48; Weight 158 pounds this morning; 10 years in the sport, first IM 2015; 9-12 hours per week training; 2009 Cervelo P2 with HED deep-rim front wheel and brand-new FLO deep-rim rear wheel (haven't raced on the FLO wheel yet).


if you don't have a smart trainer, get one. then stick to the trainer road training plan that matches your time availability and stop pondering over. have fun!
Last edited by: jollyroger88: May 9, 23 0:09
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Re: IM: How to go from sub-13 to sub-11? [samtridad] [ In reply to ]
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You've raced three IM and you've improved by 97 minutes. You want to shave off another 13 minutes.

In all likelihood, the only thing you need to do is another race. Having another year of training in the legs and more race experience will most probably prove the difference.

Or more training miles. Either more commitment in your off-season, a few more run miles each week, or some additional time in the saddle.

Sometimes we look for complex solutions in this sport, when answers can be remarkably simple.
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Re: IM: How to go from sub-13 to sub-11? [samtridad] [ In reply to ]
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I pulled it off — i just switched from penticton to Texas
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Re: IM: How to go from sub-13 to sub-11? [randomtriguy] [ In reply to ]
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randomtriguy wrote:
I pulled it off — i just switched from penticton to Texas

Time to start thinking about sub 10.
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Re: IM: How to go from sub-13 to sub-11? [samtridad] [ In reply to ]
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From my experience these are things that helped me improve:
- Race selection. It needs to suit your strengths and needs to be a fast one. The difference between slower races like Lanzarote and the fastest like Florida or Barcelona are huge.
- Consistency. If you are consistent with training over multiple years you'll get better
- Frequency. If you train more often you will improve. Going from 2/2/2 to 3/3/3/ or 4/4/4
- Volume. With more volume you will improve. Tracking how you spend your time might help you optimise and finding more time.
- Manage intensity. Have high intensity but not too much. Too much will get you injured or sick. Consistency is the most important thing.
- Get a coach if you don't have one.
- Better equipment can get you a lot of speed on the bike
- Better pacing at the race (don't swim or bike too hard)
- Better race nutrition (a little more liquids, a lot more carbs. 90g of carbs per hour or more)
Last edited by: marcoviappiani: May 9, 23 5:57
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Re: IM: How to go from sub-13 to sub-11? [marcoviappiani] [ In reply to ]
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marcoviappiani wrote:
From my experience these are things that helped me improve:
- Race selection. It needs to suit your strengths and needs to be a fast one. The difference between slower races like Lanzarote and the fastest like Florida or Barcelona are huge.
- Consistency. If you are consistent with training over multiple years you'll get better
- Frequency. If you train more often you will improve. Going from 2/2/2 to 3/3/3/ or 4/4/4
- Volume. With more volume you will improve. Tracking how you spend your time might help you optimise and finding more time.
- Manage intensity. Have high intensity but not too much. Too much will get you injured or sick. Consistency is the most important thing.
- Get a coach if you don't have one.
- Better equipment can get you a lot of speed on the bike
- Better pacing at the race (don't swim or bike too hard)
- Better race nutrition (a little more liquids, a lot more carbs. 90g of carbs per hour or more)

I'd say this pretty much sums it up. Maybe the only thing I'd add is to treat rest and post-workout nutrition as part of your training, especially as you get close to you limit in terms of volume.
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Re: IM: How to go from sub-13 to sub-11? [samtridad] [ In reply to ]
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I asked my golf pro, "How can I lower my score by 10 strokes?" He said, "Quit on 17." :)

Looks like you can get there.

Not a coach. Not a FOP Tri/swimmer/biker/runner. Barely a MOP AGer.
But I'm learning and making progress.
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Re: IM: How to go from sub-13 to sub-11? [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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synthetic wrote:
you get your best bang for buck in running... 30 miles is even low. perhaps train for an open marathon that takes place 2 months before the IM... typical bq person does about 50mpw+

I like this answer. Just run more.

***
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Re: IM: How to go from sub-13 to sub-11? [randomtriguy] [ In reply to ]
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randomtriguy wrote:
I pulled it off — i just switched from penticton to Texas

I wish this was an option! Penticton is a two hour drive. The race is so convenient and works out way cheaper for me than any other options (no flight, less time in hotels, no time off work etc.). Ironman is already so expensive and fairly hard to justify putting money into (I have nine children and the first two are now in university, so margins are tight). Ideally I would love to travel to races, it's just not an option right now. I even got a roll-down spot for Nice but had to turn it down for financial reasons.
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Re: IM: How to go from sub-13 to sub-11? [samtridad] [ In reply to ]
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If you ever get the luxury to do it, texas felt like a half ironman compared to the monster's of whistler and penticton -- probably because im a heavier dude. completely different race.
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Re: IM: How to go from sub-13 to sub-11? [M----n] [ In reply to ]
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M----n wrote:

I like this answer. Just run more.

At the moment I run three or four times a week: two or three lunchtime runs of 4-5 miles, then a longer weekend run (9 miles last weekend). I have to be careful when I increase run volume as I've had ankle and knee problems in the past, but there is definitely room for more mileage in my week, and it is far easier to fit in to my schedule than extra swimming or biking. Of all the suggestions so far, this seems like the most doable.
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Re: IM: How to go from sub-13 to sub-11? [samtridad] [ In reply to ]
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samtridad wrote:
I have nine children.


Easy answer....spend fewer "resources" on the wife...LOL
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Re: IM: How to go from sub-13 to sub-11? [samtridad] [ In reply to ]
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samtridad wrote:
randomtriguy wrote:
I pulled it off — i just switched from penticton to Texas


I wish this was an option! Penticton is a two hour drive. The race is so convenient and works out way cheaper for me than any other options (no flight, less time in hotels, no time off work etc.). Ironman is already so expensive and fairly hard to justify putting money into (I have nine children and the first two are now in university, so margins are tight). Ideally I would love to travel to races, it's just not an option right now. I even got a roll-down spot for Nice but had to turn it down for financial reasons.


In the US it currently costs $233,610 to raise one child and that doesn't include college tuition. So $2.1 million if you're in the US. I have zero kids but still find ways to part with my money. Ironman takes some of that. It is indeed very expensive to do this sport and travel to fun destinations, even with just the two of us. 9 kids.....you must have a good marriage ;)

Death is easy....peaceful. Life is harder.
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