I was under the impression most swim coaches shake their heads at triathletes swimming long distances continuously in training. The theory they have is that if your form is bad, or breaks down over distances, all this does is reinforce bad habits.

Personally I tend to agree and feel the only benefit of long sets is mental training which after having a few long course races under my belt don’t feel the need to practice anymore.

I still swim 4k or so a session but I do it broken up now.

So that's what I thought as well (coaches go as far as prescribing 80x25 or 40x50 with 3-second recoveries), but apparently the Swimsmooth program contains one continuous swim a week. (I don't do it).

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"FTP is a bit 2015, don't you think?" - Gustav Iden

If you're making progress, there's a benefit to what you're doing and it has value. Continue doing it until you feel like you're no longer making progress, then adjust.

To me, the caveat is that you think about what you're doing MORE when you swim longer, whereas many will think about what they're doing LESS.

Much of training in the water is about maintaining engagement in HOW you're swimming. Many athletes just shut their brain off during longer stuff, which makes it less effective.

There's definitely physiological value in longer swimming, providing engagement can be maintained. However many can't/won't do it, which makes it potentially less effective.

Secondly, some individuals don't have the ability to maintain their skills for extended periods of time, especially when trying to learn new skills. If going for longer distances leads them to swim poorly, that's not going to be productive. They should keep it shorter to PRACTICE swimming well. As they're better able to maintain their skills, they can extend it out if they want.

It works, provided skills can be maintained due to engagement and/or fitness.

Hope that helps.

Andrew

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http://www.masteringflow.info
http://www.youtube.com/@masteringflow
http://www.andrewsheaffcoaching.com/...freestyle-fast-today

same for swimming as for running.. go as long as you can WHILE you are able to mantain form. It is an error to swim (or run) in bad form.

so... if there are options to increase your aerobic capacity AND mantain good form AND mantain "some speed"... why you should do long swims? ---> only for mental purpouses, for tests and because your goal is a long swim.

and the last if you are not used to long swims... it is a good stimulous. It is good to change the focus of the training during the year (not doing always the same)

Thank you all for the insights. I think that I am liking this and I will probably mix in simple long swims occasionally going forward. It has been many years since I have done workouts like this, and I kind of like them.

It's interesting, I would think that long swims a few times a month would be beneficial if the race you're targeting has a long swim. If your form breaks down during long swims wouldn't the best way to combat that be to practice keeping form during long swims?

Not a great swimmer here but made a lot of progress and I’m not lying one bit when I’m saying that long over distance continuous swims are the highest yield workout for me. I still do intervals regularly so I think the overdistance locks in the stronger form over distnance.

I think you are onto something, but it won't register with life-long swimmers. Swimming is a sport that will forever be dominated and remembered for the sprint distances, therefore coaching revolves around that.

Just imagine if you told every swim coach in the world that there will no longer be short swimming events held, that their swimmers will only be competing in 1.5k or longer events. Do you think swim training would change and incorporate long endurance sets more frequently? I do.

What I found, coming from a non swim background, is that long sets let me focus on my form. I can feel when my form starts to break down and have learned how to pace myself and improve form mid set, much like one needs to do during a long open water swim. There is a point of diminishing returns on this, one can become so fatigued that form just goes to complete shit and you need to rest, so being ultra self aware during these long sets is crucial.

So I believe, just based on my experience, that these long swim sets of 1 or 2k really helped me out, especially early on when I was just learning to feel the water. It forced me to really focus and think about what I was doing form wise.

That being said I find I improve quite a bit when doing 200 and 400 yard sets that really test my ability to hold a faster pace than what I can on long sets, but I still think the long endurance sets have probably been more helpful overall for me than the short intervals.

To LC triathletes who swim at min 3 times (most that I work with do 4 swims a week), I do 1 base work swim, 1 "hard" swim and 1 distance day. It's mostly broken race distances:

IE
5 x 400; 4 x 600, 3 x 1k, etc 2 x 1.5k. It's not usually 1 "continous" swim, but I find it's much needed. I also use it as a "recovery" day; I'll do it as o) CH eq e) swim etc. I like the longer sets, but with a few breaks.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

They talked about this a bit on this week's episode of the Scientific Triathlon podcast. The coach on advocated for 3-4 swims/week but longer swims (basically said 2k is a waste of time, not that I necessarily agree) with an emphasis on form. Seems like longer swim sets was the recommendation for 70.3 & up. But a lot of form work rather than just knocking out a lot of distance if that needs work. I think it's fair that a lot of triathletes (myself included) who come from other sports go to the pool a ton, log good distance, but don't always find improvement if you're just swimming a lot with bad form. They want to steer triathletes away from hammering out distance swims with poor form. They also want us swimming long sets & would rather less frequency to more volume.

This is an interesting topic. My first few years of swimming (Slow AF), I would ignore all drills, paces etc., and simply swim 1000–3000 meters broken up into random sets of usually 300-400 m sets.

I would also do 1x per week, swim 2k continuous.

The only logic behind this was for my mental comfort that I COULD swim the distance in a 70.3. When I went to IM, I increased my workouts slightly and swam 4k continuous 2-3 time leading up to the event.

This year I joined a Masters group. Still slow AF, however super confident in my "Can I do the distance" mindset, and now want to improve. Our workouts are about 4k per 90 minutes, I manage to get about 3400-3600 done in the time allowed. I feel the improvement in just 4 weeks.

All this being said, had I done Masters prior to me achieving mental confidence that I can knock out 4-5k continuous at any time, the Master's would not have benefited me. I would have been far more preoccupied with the distance than the drills and the benefit of putting in good work. My coach told me, "You are a decent swimmer, you will simply never improve doing what you're doing".

I think that for many people, if they like and believe in the training they are doing, it is far more beneficial mentally than having "technique" training that leaves them up at night with doubt.

What do you mean by "base swim"? That sounds similar to an endurance swim set.

When you say mostly broken race distances. Do you prescribe sets such as 16x100 for olympic distance and 7x300 for 70.3? So the main set is the distance of the race swim?

A "base" swim for me is always technique/stroke work days I break it down as 50 / 75 / 100's of technique work followed by "putting it together" efforts

IE
8 x 50 2 DK off each wall, etc
4 x 75 BC, 1 less breath per 25
4 x 100 as 25 zipper drill / 25 swim
4 x 100 rotating 25 strong
4 x 50 desc 1-4 @ 1:00 etc

(not in that specific order, I put a 3500yd set in the Jan Swim set from a few days ago)


The "distance" sets for me basically are longer intervals than basically 300's and above. I dont really add "technique" work in those sets specifically, obviously you want to swim with good form, but it's not an specific "priority" like a "you do this technique drill 4 times". So like my distance sets usually start at 5 x 300's for olympics or 6 x 400 for 70,3 etc. And then then the following week those 400's are now 500's then a month later it's 3 x 1k etc. I normally always give some athlete freedom (I call it athlete empowerment) with CH/ EQ within these. Of note, I never really care what the paces are on these days, unless I know there is a specific distance we are doing. But if we are doing 6 x 400's I really don't look at the splits. The priority for me is just getting "longer" sets in (I'm also low key on worrying about splits all the time on distance days, there are days where we need to hit times and there are days where you just "go fucking swim").

There are days where there are "tempo distance" work but I normally keep that below 400's (but lots of repeats). Right now most of my athletes are in the "fast 50's" phase of swim training where we are dialing up the top top end speed and then once "race season" rolls around we start to dial in race tempo over and over (race 300's is my go to set for that).

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

By all means, if you are concerned about not being able to make the distance in a race, swim a continuous swim in the pool or open water to boost your confidence. But you would do better to find some open water races and go out and race.

However, in my experience, if you want to ingrain unfocused, sloppy and inefficient technique swim a long continuous swim frequently. For most triathletes, the longest repeat you should be doing is around a 200 yard/meter. I've found that the majority of triathletes can't stay focused enough past 200 y/m repeats to maintain their stroke. Keep in mind that getting better in swimming is primarily driven by the brain and 100% neural in nature. The by-product of that training is you increase your aerobic/anaerobic capacity, you get stronger to support the movement, etc. Don't put all your focus on the by-product.

I hope this helps,

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

Put me in the category of someone who does not benefit from a long, continuous swim. I don't know how much my form breaks down, but I know I have trouble concentrating and my mind wanders. I'd much prefer to do a large number of 100s on very short rest as my endurance set. If I take 5 seconds rest, that's about how long it takes to grab the wall, turn, and take two full breaths. It's just enough to keep my head in the game. Since I started doing that as my 'long swim' I have never had any trouble transitioning to open water. That being said, I did do a 4200-yard continuous swim before my first Ironman. But that was psychological-- I just really needed to know I could do it.

An important idea about training is that workouts should either:
1 ) make you faster or
2) make you capable of doing workouts that will make you faster



Long continuous swims probably will not make you faster.

They might be helpful in making it possible for you to do the workouts that will make you faster.

I do long continuous swims.

But I suspect most people will benefit more from workouts that provide more opportunity to monitor form.

I have been doing this for about a 1.5yrs now. I don’t swim enough that drills will change my form. I’m not investing the time to necessarily get faster.

What I am doing is getting stronger. I will swim anywhere from 2-3.5k in a session at least 1x a week. I will do 500-1k intervals. I will vary speed every 250.

Works for me.

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http://www.TriScottsdale.org

I'm kinda amazed at the supposition that these long continuous swims are 'too easy'.

Sure, they are at an overall slower pace than a short 100-300 set, but holding sub-race pace for 3000 (or even 2 x 1500) without dropoff is very difficult, or seems it should be. When I do these long sets, it's certainly not at some totally relaxed pace that I can smile the whole way through - in fact, I'm super focused in the last 1000 because the fatigue is really setting in and I'm mentally analyzing my form for flaws with the fatigue load. I'm always horrified with how hard it feels to swim the last 500 of the long swim at what its typically my 'z2+' pace if doing broken sets, but feels like pushing z4 by the end of a 3000.

(I do record splits every 500 or 1000 though - I'm not just waiting until the end for feedback, so that may be part of it.)

I honestly find them just as hard, if not harder than a 20 x 100 set, even if my HR spikes higher on the hard 100s.

A variation is something like 15-20x150 as 100 hard on an interval that gives just a few seconds rest and then 50 recovery where you only get about 10 seconds rest and you’re swimming to get your breath back. Doesn’t give much rest through the set and like a big block of continuous work.

I’ve never done a 3k effort in training but I’ve done a 2k best effort. The last few hundred are hard!

Yeah, I've done tons of those kind of sets that still have like 5-10sec rest. I still think it's different, even if you swim faster on the sets. 10sec rest in between each 100 for 3000 is a lot of rest - at least for me, I feel a different fatigue from doing that than the 3000 straight (which also requires mental resolve and a different pacing mindset.)

Try not to kick off the wall too hard when doing long distance sets. Developing the ability to generate and maintain velocity without that explosive push off the wall will help in the open water.

My intent of this post had nothing to do with open water swims. I am comfortable in the water and consistently turn in top-10 swim times in my AG. My intended point is that while I am not back to race condition, my pace in my long continuous swims is a little faster than I was swimming my 500 yard sets during my structured workouts while in race form. So, it made me wonder if there is some merit to occasionally mixing in long continuous swims instead of structured workouts.

From my view it seems your pace may be a bit faster due to two factors:
1. Your body/mind has recovered from stresses of training and you are ready to go again
2. During the longer swims you are more focused on the feel/enjoyment of moving through the water and not on the dictates of the clock.

Similar to me... My guess...
When I swim interval sets, I try to push effort more and, though I try to keep form, I think those higher efforts might impact form. On the other hand, sometimes I just get in the water and 'just swim' w/o break for the first 30 or so mins. I'm doing a moderate pace then, so can focus quite a bit on form. Form > effort in swim given the density of water. So to me, I think those long continuous swims are actually what helps me focus better on form, while also giving a nice zone 2 workout.

Based on that, my guess would be that your "race form" is you under-recovered. You took some time off and your "out of shape" is rested and you are able to express some of the fitness you built up on the road to being under-recovered.

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

I agree. It registers with this life-long swimmer :) In my younger days the 500, 1,000, and 1,650 were my events. My stroke technique is different between doing a long set versus doing 10 x 100s.

I like doing long sets - and will always begin day 1 of my training week doing longer sets: 3 x 1,000s or 1,500, 1000, and 500. When I do these I am ALWAYs thinking about my technique. Some of these longer swims I will do drills every other 100, or use a pull buoy, add drag, or wear fist gloves. My last day of the week will almost always consist of shorter intervals. 5 x 200s, 10 x 100s, 10 x 50s. I do know that my swimming times wont improve unless I do these types of shorter intervals.

I think being self coached you have to find the balance of the training that you like to do versus the training you need to do. I have found a workout pattern that works for me!

I've been doing continuous swims in my workouts for the last couple of months and have had the same experience as you. I swim 3 x 20 minutes non-stop and the fact I don't have to count laps or worry about intensity means I can focus purely on the feel of the water as I swim. I think most people can swim 20 minutes before the dreaded "breakdown of form" that we're all warned about, and if you can't, well then what will you do on race day (assuming you are racing longer than Sprint distance)?

I have done long continuous swims many times and am fairly certain that the improvement I have seen in my 500, 1000, and 1650 times was due in large part to these workouts. However, the caveat to this is that I did NOT simply swim without watching the clock but rather I would watch the clock like a hawk with the intent of swimming each 500 faster than the last one, gradually building up to a max effort for the last 500. I always go out easy, using the first 500 as a warmup, then descending my 500s from there. I've done this for distances of 3000 up to 12,000 but most commonly in the 4000-5500 range. I believe that, if you can descend a 5000 swim by 500s, you are more than ready for the iron swim.

Many STers seem to think that a long continuous swim means not having to watch the clock, but basically this means missing out on a great opportunity to learn to pace yourself in longer swims.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

I'll swim with bad form. The idea is to ingrain good form, rather than bad, in muscle memory, and you spend a lot of time swimming in training (as opposed to racing).
+ the wetsuit always helps, when you wear it.

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"FTP is a bit 2015, don't you think?" - Gustav Iden

I agree that the aim is to ingrain good form, but it has to be contextual and event-specific as well. Being able to maintain good form in the pool for a 20 minute swim is, I would argue, a fairly minimal requirement if you expect to be able to hold good form for 60-70 minutes on race day. I find that swimming mindfully for 20 minutes, without worrying about pace or time helps me to dial in my form, so that during the last five minutes I am smoother and more economical than during the first 5 minutes. If form is breaking down, I agree that stopping, resting, and resetting is the best option.

Do you think the pace that you swim at changes your technique?

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

Yes, definitely. Above a certain pace I can feel things breaking down in my stroke.

Without a doubt when you go above threshold for too long the stroke will have a tendency to break down. But at that point there is an opportunity to build the most important skill you can build in swimming and where the majority of the gains come from. It is the skill of retaining focus on your stroke even as the levels of stress get higher and higher.

Also, the flip side to the stroke breaking down at faster pacing is the stroke is less focused and more inefficient at slower pacing. What type of technique are you ingraining in your 20 minute straight swim?

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

The main goal (in terms of technique) of the 20 minute mindful swim is to move as smoothly as possible through the water, keeping my heart rate down as low as I can and relaxing as many muscles as I can. Throughout the swim I'll try to zone in on just one aspect of my stroke at a time: like kick timing, keeping my elbow high, maintaining good body position, relaxing my breathing (etc.). The greater goal of the extended swim for me is the relaxing and therapeutic nature of moving through the water mindfully. It's more a form of meditation and stress-release than a "workout". As soon as the lake warms up (usually May) I do even longer steady-state swims - building up to 90 minutes of continuous calm swimming.

Sounds good. That is a very pleasant way to spend your time. But if we are speaking specifically about gaining performance improvements in the swim, it isn't the most effective way to spend your time.

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

The point I'm making is not just about "performance improvements on the swim", rather "performance improvements for Ironman training and racing". I think there are too many variables for anyone to be able to talk about "the most effective way to spend your time", because it depends on your current context and future goals. I swam with a master's swim squad for a couple of years and went 1:10 for my Ironman swim. I swam on my own for a while after that, focusing on relaxation, comfort, low heart rate (etc.) and swam 1:08 for my next Ironman swim. More importantly, I saved 30 minutes on the bike/run after the 1:08 swim.

"The most effective use of time" depends so much on one's individual situation that anyone who thinks they know "the most effective use of (someone else's) time" is really just kidding themselves. For me (and I would imagine there are others out there in similar situations) reducing stress, increasing comfort-level, improving recovery, and ensuring freshness when you mount your bike on race day are higher-level priorities to address.

If you're making the argument that straight, continuous swimming is the most effective way to train for an Ironman, you're wrong. It doesn't matter the person or their situation. If you think using time is the best metric for judging improvement in open water swimming or triathlon for that matter, you're really wrong.

There's a great book that was published not too long ago. It's called the Death of Expertise. It's about how a lot of people have come to think, due to the amount of information available on the Internet, that all opinions about a given subject are now equal. They aren't. I'm not trying to be mean. I'm not trolling you. I'm not getting personal. But there is a wide difference between knowledge and expertise.

I wish you all the best with your training and racing. I cheer for everyone who takes on the challenge of the sport of triathlon.

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

Well I don't really know what to say to this other than we'll just have to agree to disagree. When I do a race, time is the only metric that matters because that's how they decide our placings. When I'm doing a race my goal is to get to the finish line in as short a time as possible, I'm not sure what other metric there could be that you think is more important on race day.

When you are trying to compare races to judge whether or not you are improving or not, there's no way to normalize time for the difference in course or conditions. If you think a 1:08 at IM Chattanooga is the same thing as a 1:08 at IM South Africa, then we will agree to disagree. Time doesn't have much value as a metric to judge improvement in triathlon. The best metrics are usually your time behind the first place person (only if the field is large enough) since place is what drives most of success in triathlon or your percent place in the overall field.

I hope this helps.

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

Is there any love for hard-easy continuous swimming, similar to track workouts running? I do this a lot. Hard down, easy back. Hard 100’s with easy 50 recovery. Hard 500’s with 200 recovery…etc. I’m old, not concerned with improving, since that ship sailed a long time ago. I swim a continuous hour every other day, and go by feel. I do a lot of intervals, but recover with easy swimming, and rarely if ever stop, until my hour is up.

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Athlinks / Strava

You'll typically see more shoulder injuries that way. There is a lot of benefit in the stop on the wall. Physically and mentally.

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

I understand your point and agree that it can be hard to compare swim times between different races. However, both my swims were Ironman Canada - in different lakes, but with very similar conditions. First race finished 28th in AG/243rd OA, second race finished 15th AG/120th OA. From my results it's clear that switching from purely swimming intervals with the local masters swim club to more emphasis on mindful swimming helped my race day performance. It helped me stay healthy and injury-free during training. It helped me feel fresher when getting on the bike. It helped me with race day pacing. It helped me with my endurance at race-pace. I submit that all of those things are (to answer the OP's question) "benefits of long swimming sessions/sets".

I think the disconnect here is in how we are interpreting the OP's question ("are there any benefits to long swimming sets?"). Long swim sets are a great way to recover from hard runs, for example. So the benefit of the long, calm swim set is not necessarily in making you a faster swimmer but in making you a faster triathlete, since it allows you to run hard and stay injury-free, so you can train more consistently and improve more. You imply that intervals are the most effective and efficient way to train for everybody. I disagree with you. This isn't about expertise v. knowledge or the relativity of truth, it's a statement grounded in appreciation of different contexts. I know there is at least one situation (mine) where the inclusion of longer sets (like the 20 minute mindful swim for example, which I do as part of a recovery swim every couple of weeks or so, the day after my biggest bike/run day) is objectively more efficient and more effective than only doing interval-based training.

Just me, but mentally is one of the main reasons I went to continuous. Stopping, starting, gabbing, stalling, lack of discipline in timing rests, total time spent at the pool, making excuses for calling it a day, whatever. These days, I get in and get it done, and that works much better with my psyche. As for shoulders, it’s never been an issue. But I also spend an equal time in the gym, as I do swimming, so I’m sure that helps.

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Athlinks / Strava

Yes, yes, yes. I am fartleking in the pool all the time and watching the wall clock. Today’s continuous swim was 2000yd with the first half on 1:25/100 flowing right into part 2 at 1:19/100. Hit the wall like clock work…theoretically 2000 time was 27:20, finished it in 27:23.

It seems to me the fact that you were left drained, rather than demonstrating the superiority of continuos long swims, could simply indicate that you were not doing interval training properly. Maybe you were doing them too fast, with too little rest, or something else.

I’m certainly no expert, but my sense is that the swim coaches here could give you a training plan that would be interval based and make you faster than the continuous swimming does.

If someone says that they simply enjoy continuous swimming more, than there is nothing to dispute. Do what makes you happy. It will probably make you faster too, since you’ll do what you enjoy more frequently.

But I’m very dubious about the assertions that a training program involving a heavy dose of continuous swimming will lead to better fitness and form. Swimming is technique based, improving technique requires repeating good form, and form deteriorates the longer we swim. The deterioration is probably less and slower for better swimmers, but it gets us all. So practicing through long swims is at some level practicing bad technique.

I don’t think anyone here is advocating all long swims. But there are definitely people advocating all short intervals with complete exclusion of long swims.

One of my favorite sets. Today was 7x100 (LCM) on a descending interval, dropping from 2:00/100 down to 1:30/100, *holding best average*. I held 1:29 for all seven, so I made the last interval. I've done 100s SCY starting at 1:30/100 and dropping :01/100 (it takes some thought to do that!) until you can't make the interval. You gotta push all the intervals, else you go too easy for the first few. As you said, the point is to focus on "holding your stroke" as it gets harder and harder.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

I’m writing as a life long swimmer so maybe the taxing nature of a longish continuous swim is not the same as for others.

When training for a half or longer I’ll do intervals during the week but after my Sunday long run I usually do a 1500-2000 long continuous swim. I get a recovery benefit but also it does (for me) allow me to get used to just going for that long as I usually focus on 100s and 200s during training. It’s prob more of a mental then a physical benefit.