That is quite a good move on both sides. Jan is probably retiring this year and Sam is a natural replacement.

Not the last big-name addition to the Canyon roster for 2023 either

I was hoping he would have stayed with the trek. Just because I like the look better. It might be the odd line created by the upper black painted area. But, I get that these guys gotta go where they get the most benefit for themselves. I know most of us have dreamed or still do of being a pro one day (not in my cards), but it has got to be one of the most demanding jobs physically for a professional with little payout.

Directly with a special adapter for longer reach, and more angled extensions (my main complaints on many of the newer bikes...)

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https://besse.info/
https://www.strava.com/athletes/2012033

Noticed it too. I have the radsport adapter for higher angle on mine and love it.

Ah, crap! Now I have coffee all over my iPad screen.

I didn’t mean he is a natural replacement for the GOAT. I meant he is a natural replacement as a European and popular following.

Indeedy!

When is she getting announced?

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"FTP is a bit 2015, don't you think?" - Gustav Iden

Of the top ranked #10 I assume Gentle is staying with Felt. Both Sodaro and Matthews have been great 'finds'/athletes for BMCProTri for 4/3 years but both have said 'good bye and thank you'. Philipp is the sole Canyon rep in the WPRO top 10.

Gentle's on Scott, no?

I think Emma Pallant is announcing her new bike sponsor tomorrow as well.

Wasn’t Sam on a Canyon before he rode the TREK?

Not sure if it was right before, but he was riding an S-Works recently too.

Yes, Scott I believe (Felt was 2021 IIRC).

She is on a Scott but when she made the announcement she said she would be riding it for the 2022 season. Perhaps that has changed into a longer term agreement since then?

It’s going to be very interesting to see how he does with Canyon this year. Can he pull the fastest bike split again at WC in Nice?

I was expecting her (and Sam) to announce first week of Jan, since I presume that's when their sponsorship starts. Is it delayed to create more media material first?

is she joining the Blu train?

Ashleigh is on Scott for 2023, we'll actually be in the wind tunnel with her new bike next week.

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David T-D
http://www.tilburydavis.com

This seems like a pretty good move by both IMO. Canyon gets an actual podium contender at races on their bike and I'm sure Sam gets a nice payday too.

I know Sam said almost every bike brand made him an offer after Kona, so hopefully he got himself a good deal (and he's got a decent bike there).

I’m cautious that that kona performance may be an outlier for him - people say it’s his coming of age race. That he is on the up…. Call me a pessimist but I think there is a chance it was just one hell of a good race and not a sign of where he is heading. I’m probably wrong, however he is laughing with what he now gets from it.

4th at both PTO Opens, towards the front of the StG world champs most of the day - 23...

Pretty solid year.

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DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!

I think Sams performance was a long time coming and probably a result of a decade of hard work.

He left home at about 14 to live and train in the national academy. I think it may take another couple of years to be consistently top podium but I think he is a solid all rounder with a good career in front of him.

Sam is usually one of the first to come out of the water. Add in a strong bike and you have an athlete out front for all to see advertising your product. I personally recall seeing Sam getting a ton of TV/Online coverage with the PTO races and of course Kona while biking.

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"Heart Rate, Watts, I have no idea, I race, I don't pace." Andrew Starykowicz

Does anyone know what helmet he is in now?
The Visor looks like a kask style.
Was a Met Drone in the past.

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Full-time Engineer / Part-time Pro Triathlete
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/benwgoodfellow/
Strava - https://www.strava.com/athletes/3085032
Website - https://benwgoodfellow.wixsite.com/bengoodfellow

I've been eyeing that Radsport Ibert adapter, it's pricey though especially ordering to Canada. Does the spacer still allow you to hide the e-tube wires and hold the drinking straw like the stock spacers? I was hesitant to buy it because of that.

Sebi got away 1x on the bike too…. Then never again. Sam will never be alone at the front, especially at a WC race, and we will see penalties for the riding he did there in the future. Kona was a “perfect” day for him. All athletes know those are rare.

Even the Norwegians doubted him at the front in Kona.

If he was an employee of mine and I was doing a “9 Box” on him, I’d say “Too Soon To Tell”

The kid is 24 years old, he has (arguably) the strongest swim/bike combo in the field with his running continuously improving. And yet, you are writing him off already as a one hit wonder and disregarding his performance as illegal. He cracked AB on the bike in Edmonton, and mind you, AB seemed awfully close to his wheel when Laidlow was in front wheras Laidlow was keeping the legal distance when he was at the back. So not a 1 x.

I think he will prove you wrong.

Some athletes break through and stay there, some athletes have a "career" day and then settle for top 10ish type of results for the rest of their career. I'm much less interested at times in the final result, than I am at people who "make" the race happen. SL imo is one of those guys. His ability is going to make others have to make key decisions in terms of bike effort etc. Maybe it works out and maybe it doesn't but I think he's going to be a key player in how the races unfold.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I’m not writing him off. I’m saying that the professionals let him ride away because they doubted him. They won’t let that happen again.

As far as illegal, IMO he has done a few things to question his integrity. He was absolutely chasing the moto in Kona. There’s no doubt. If you read the rules and apply fairly to all, he was riding illegally. He also decided to do the Hoala swim without registering and assumed he could win it, crossing the line first.

He needs to hold himself to a higher standard. Again just my opinion.

My guess is that he is really breaking through. He seems to have all the ingredients to be a successful modern age long course triathlete: ITU background, years of specific triathlon training since a young age, unquestionable talent, great bike position, etc.. Some personality traits are not the greatest (e.g. crashing the Ho'ala swim) but he blows races to pieces which I find exciting to watch.

In this regard, he's a bit like LCB moving to Cube. An athlete you know who will be at the front making all the key moves, with potentially hours of camera time (or at least a feature in the NBC broadcast)? Regardless of how well he'll do in the future (especially on the run), you at least know you'll get lots of shots of your bike on camera.

(Though LCB is obviously more of a proven contender)

He broke the course bike record yet they let him ride away?

Why wouldn't you chase the moto if it is available to you. Certainly not the first and won't be the last to do that. He is out alone on the road so hardly any blocking concerns and should be up to them to keep their distance... Up to marshals to determine if he was doing anything illegal. Lange using a team mate for the win on the bike is more of a concern to me.

Who hasn't done the Hoala swim illegally as a race prep it sells out. Albeit most of us generally just pull off to the side not go to the finish. Good on him he can get away with it.

As if the others could just choose to keep up with that bike power and not risk a blowup on the run.

Anybody spotted what Aerobars and saddle he has mounted? (at least on the photos from IG, for now)

Anyone at the front of the race going as hard as they can would chase the moto. Its the moto's responsibility to keep the correct distance not the athletes. What is he supposed to do slow down and let the moto decide who gets to T2 first?

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He who understands the WHY, will understand the HOW.

Athletes are required by the rules to keep to the right side of the lane, unless passing. Whereas Laidlow veered into the centre several times (and that was just those captured and broadcast) we saw minimal examples of KB or Iden (leading the chase) 'wandering' over to the centre lane (when a moto just happened to be close). Your 'chasing the moto' deliberately seeking advantage can also be judged against the 'fair play' rule.
He had a great ride and his competitors will never underestimate his run again (though I bet we see another run blow up like at Bolton in IM UK 2021 and at the Collins Cup). Canyon is his 2023 weapon of choice, lubricated by a decent stipend and bonus regime. Maybe he'll make more than one 'A' race podium in 2023, but I doubt it: his poor run will make it very difficult.

Discussed ad nauseam in a number of post Kona threads. He was judged - by the race referee, who was happy to let him finish without penaly. If Blu or Iden or anyone else was in his position how do we know they would not have done exactly the same thing? Riding in the lead of a race is different from riding in the pack or following your team mate - he only has the moto for company. Its harder riding on your own.

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He who understands the WHY, will understand the HOW.

It’s harder to ride on your own at the front? What?

You don’t get to ride anywhere you want in races because you are the leader;. Every athlete has positions they are required by the rules to ride in. Whether that’s a position, blocking or passing rules . They may not be penalized but you don’t get to ride any place you want just because you are the race leader.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Not penalising Laidlow was in the interests of the race. I can envisage the discussions in 'race control' - we heard how the video crew were remarking how much moto-chasing Laidlow was doing. I wish the head ref had also been able to control their on-road referees (and not penalise) Ditlev after he'd stopped at special needs and then buried himself to get back onto the Norges plus Neumann trio.
It would have degenerated into a Norges running together fest. The anticipation of when Laidlow would blow kept us going for almost 2 hours, heading back into town.

Who ran faster than laidlow at kona apart from iden and kb? Not sure I’d say he has a poor run anymore…

Only Neumann and Lange, with Skipper and Hanson in #6 and #7. It was an excellent run, all the more so after burying himself with that 4:04 ride: unbelievable, till Palani.
https://stats.protriathletes.org/...-hawaii/2022/results
His runs in 2023 will speak for themselves. In 2021/22 it was 3:04 (22 minutes slower than Skipper) at Bolton UK, DNF Almere, DNF South Africa, a (sensible) DNF in Texas and then a 2:55 at IMWC2021 (St George) 17 minutes slower than KB.
But, hey, it's a triathlon and with a top-notch s/b he can hang in there for good placings (see Edmonton and Dallas).

Well I always find it a lot easier and motivational when I have something ahead of me to chase. Time trialling on an open road with nothing ahead takes a lot of concentration and sooner or later the mind wanders. Riding in a pack or at legal distance to your team mate to share the load makes life faster and helps keep your concentration - at least I think so.

I think you will find when you are leading the race you do get to ride where you want - within the limits of the rule book of course. Sam obviously complied.

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He who understands the WHY, will understand the HOW.

I don't think that's the case, but if you are using this as evidence that you can ride anywhere you want, fair enough. I would be cautious of using the excuse that your "mind wandered" as to justifying you riding all over the road. But that's just my own interpertation of the rules, you may see differently. As I said in that thread that debated the issue, it was enough for the commentators to comment on it several times.

(If the refs believed he didn't break any rules fair enough as a coach, I wouldn't instruct my athletes to behave with the mindset you are suggesting with front of race riders. I'm pretty sure "riding right" is the prescribed riding position at all times minus a few instances (safety, passing, etc). So again he may have not been dinged but I'm not really sure what you are suggesting is correct either. Also there are plenty of times athletes break rules that never are faulted for it, so excusing it because the ref's didn't call it isn't always the best justification).

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

If it is the fastest place to ride and the ref's deem it legal then it is the smartest place to ride. Seems pretty simple to me?

What position are you suggesting again? “Chasing the moto”?

Maybe I’m just old school but I find riding to the rules as the simplist position. No chasing motos, no swerving all over because I’m losing mental focus Just head down to the right, That’s the simpliest position.

So if you’re telling me the leader gets to ride anywhere he wants we will just agree to disagree, so all good.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

But Sam didn't break any rules...

The cockpit in the OP looks like all canyon parts, with the pro-only riser and optional long cups

Shambolic wrote:

But Sam didn't break any rules...

In my eyes he did break a rule. Not with the motos but the fairing rule and taping his poles like he did.
"(b) Fairings are prohibited. Any device added or blended into the structure that may decrease, or that has the effect of decreasing, resistance to air penetration, or that may artificially accelerate propulsion, such as a protective screen, fuselage form fairing or the like, is prohibited; (DSQ)"

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Full-time Engineer / Part-time Pro Triathlete
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/benwgoodfellow/
Strava - https://www.strava.com/athletes/3085032
Website - https://benwgoodfellow.wixsite.com/bengoodfellow

He's pushing boundaries and if he wasn't penalised then he hasn't broken any rules. Maybe IM need to tighten up next year and enforce them? There are no rules in IM but is it fair Iden was one of a very few athletes with 50mm stack shoes? Should there be a rule? Boundaries are there to be pushed, rules are put in place and the officials need to enforce them if deemed to be crossed. Any competitive athlete would be stupid not to push them to the maximum for any advantage, be aware of the consequences and accept the outcome if considered to have broken them. End of story in my book.

Well thats is wrong. Not being prosecuted does not mean innocent.
He wasn't penalised because the rule was not enforced. But to the rule book a rule was broken.

Some extreme examples of the same logic
If a doper is not tested or caught. He is still cheating.
If someone commits a murder but is not found. That person is still a murderer.

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Full-time Engineer / Part-time Pro Triathlete
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/benwgoodfellow/
Strava - https://www.strava.com/athletes/3085032
Website - https://benwgoodfellow.wixsite.com/bengoodfellow

Only difference is everything was visible to the judge and they gave judgement by not prosecuting. Very different logic. Are you now the judge?

Didn’t break any rules or wasn’t penalized? Cus in our sport you can clearly get away with breaking rules and not get caught in many instances (they got what 5 or so judges for what 100 pro’s + 2k AG athletes, you’ll spend a good amount of time “alone” in our sport). You even suggesting to find the “fastest” spot is a little head scratching considering they tell you where to ride. You don’t get to ride wherever you want to find the fastest “slip stream” or anything.

If that’s your logic, sounds good.

SL was not in front of the refs the entire time. No one in our sport is and we’ve seen clearly many times “drafting” and getting away with it. By this logic they didn’t break any rules since they didn’t get penalized.

(And this is not a SL attack….I’m going after this idea that front pack athlete can ride anywhere they want of their choosing or that it’s so difficult to ride to the right. Yes I get people will slide over on occasion but when your closer to the yellow line then “right” several times that’s a riding position error. Like I can understand floating off the right by a few feet, but 5-6 feet and then you tell me they are trying to find the “fastest” spot, that’s an error….plain and simple)

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Well he was very visible to all the judges the whole race and wasn’t penalised so I figure he mustn’t have broken any rules. Must have just pushed the boundaries to the extreme.

And I made an edit I’m not having this discussion as some “attack” on SL. You know for a fact he was in front of the judges the entire time? Based on what?

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I’m saying whenever he was in front of the judges he was deemed as riding within the rules.

Right and yet they have him on the broadcast as riding in positions that on several occasions caused the ex pro’s who know the rules to question his position.

So if your logic is he didn’t get a penalty so nothing to see here cool. I just don’t think that’s a very good sound assessment within our sport where we have so few officials and way more athletes and real estate to cover + potential evidence of an infraction. And of course we see the leader on the road much more guy ranked 38th 1hour back. So that’s just how it’ll go, that eyes are more on the leaders and thus their actions are more “judgeable” than the bop pros.

I mean our sport is basically built on the honor system with the rules but yet no one ever tells an official they “broke a rule”. You only broke a rule if you get penalized for it essentially.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Yet the rule they are questioning is in regards to staying right to not impede riders passing him. How many riders did SL block?

No one, and that's not the rule infraction that is being debated. He imo violated and/or was in potential for a position foul (riding right rule). So I'm debating that apparently the leader of the race gets to ride anywhere he wants, while everyone else has to ride right? That seems to be what you are suggesting (and the other user).

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

By this (riding right rule) you speak of you mean a ‘blocking’ infraction?

This is nothing to do with blocking: the rules require a rider to keep right (or left in countries where vehicles drive on the left) except when passing or for safety.
5.04 (h) Athletes must ride single file on the far-right side (or left side depending on local
law) of the bike course road except when passing another athlete (or for reasons of
safety). (5:00 Minute Time Penalty or 30 or 60 Second Time Penalty (as applicable))
[exceptions listed at (i) on p20 of 30]
https://ironman.kleecks-cdn.com/cdn2/attachments/document/5326-2664364/2022_IRONMAN_Competition_Rules_-_English_Version_-_30march2022_-_FINAL_.pdf#_ga=2.218352282.2045724340.1648425032-260277762.1569464052

I thought the rule was there so you don’t block (impede passing riders)?

Take out all the positions, just for a thought experiment. If the front person was allowed to ride anywhere they wanted, how would a person pass them or how would they know when a person is passing them (to get out of the way). I've seen plenty of times people "sneak" up on you, etc. So just taking everything out of it, how would you propose they address those types of things?

The simpliest position for racers passing and race officials to pass etc is for athletes to always "ride right".

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Funny how you omitted some of the rule text to suit you narrative. No where does it say you will be penalised for riding not to the right in this case. It states that if you ride side by side you will be penalised for drafting or blocking. I think you check mated yourself there. Thanks for the link ;)

(h) Athletes must ride single file on the far-right side (or left side depending on local law) of the bike course road except when passing another athlete (or for reasons of safety). Side-by-side riding is not permitted and may result in a drafting or blocking violation; (5:00 Minute Time Penalty or 30 or 60 Second Time Penalty (as applicable))

I've been penalized before for riding to the left even though I wasn't blocking or riding next to anyone. There are two clauses to that rule. First, you must ride to the right wherever possible. Second, you can't ride side-by-side. Those are independent statements though.

That may be your interpretation but I don't read it that way. I learnt the rule blocking in my second IM trying to avoid a drafting bunch that sat up when they heard the motorbike and I wasn't sure if I could go three wide and not wanting to brake. Was a hard lesson but to me the rule reads when interacting with other riders to me. Blocked someone or drafting.

How do you know you aren't impeding other riders when you are riding left?

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DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!

I’ll insert your own commentary.

That may be your interpretation but I don't read it that way.

But again to each their own.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Did he block anyone?

With a basic comprehension of english how I read it and obviously the officials do the same maybe?
Edit: Maybe why you had to edit the rules to suit your narrative?

Maybe I had to edit the rules? WTF are you talking about?

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Was Sam 100% with an official, yes or no?

If not, your "he didn't get called for it" is useless. (I have been told 1st hand knowledge of someone there that SL was not with an lead official for the entirety of his breakaway, thus your whole point about the official not calling the foul....invalid)

Edit: Which goes back to the point. You are only breaking a rule if you are penalized for it, but you can use evidence to showcase an athlete is riding in the wrong. We've seen that plenty in our sport with drafting, etc. Or by your logic, you are only drafting if you get called for it. I would be very cautious with that line of reasoning in a sport that you are very rarely in front of officials all the time. In fact you are more on your own and expected to behave essentially with "honor".

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Edited by deleting a sentence out the rule but leaving the penalty after staying right: Side-by-side riding is not permitted and may result in a drafting or blocking violation;

(h) Athletes must ride single file on the far-right side (or left side depending on local law) of the bike course road except when passing another athlete (or for reasons of safety). Side-by-side riding is not permitted and may result in a drafting or blocking violation; (5:00 Minute Time Penalty or 30 or 60 Second Time Penalty (as applicable))

That's not the point. How would you know if someone was passing? With an aero helmet and you would assume not looking backwards every time.

Just because I didn't get caught drinking and driving doesn't make it legal

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DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!

But unless he was drafting or blocking the rule doesn't state he should be penalised for sitting left? Should a rider tried to pass and he impeded, he may have been considered for blocking I'm sure.

There's video evidence of SL riding so far left (within 6 inches of the yellow line) and well within the draft zone of a broadcast moto. So when we talk about all the moving parts of a race, each part of the race (racers, motos, officials) need to follow their prescribed rules within the day to keep everything as fair as possible. Riders stay right so to allow for passing and to mitigate as much "artificial" drafting from non-racers (motos- officials / broadcast / media).

But again there seems to be lots who "interpret" the rules much differently than you. Cool.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Shambolic
Jan 19, 23 14:47
Post #49 of 80 (349 views)
If it is the fastest place to ride and the ref's deem it legal then it is the smartest place to ride. Seems pretty simple to me?

As I said your logic fails in a sport that is officiated in our manner. But to each our own.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Future will tell. Imo Sam's Kona performance is not a one-off or a result of luck. This race is so hard that only a very well designed approach and perfect execution leads to such a result. Sam is also surrounding himself with people he trusts and an approach that works for him rather than jumping from hype to hype. The bike brand does not matter so much in terms of aerodynamics, position on the bike is much more important. Will be interesting how he performs as he is no 'underdog' anymore and he might feel more pressure from big brands that support him financially. Hope this is just the beginning of what we have seen from Sam because the triathlon world needs people like Sam to make races interesting to watch.

Laidlow's Kona race was an outlier compared to all his previous races. Not only, showing courage, did he ace the bike, big time (never done that before), but then he didn't blow up on the run, as he does more often than not, even in 2022. So his Kona was a one-off until he's achieved a few relatively good repeats - as you say "future will tell".
https://stats.protriathletes.org/athlete/sam-laidlow
Now that IM have decided to remove the need to validate for those AQ (for Nice or Kona) I wouldn't be surprised to see Laidlow and Sodaro not do an IM this year, till Nice/Kona. They'll be (perfectly reasonably) all-in for the PTO Tour races: an IM will demand too much recovery time.
On your second point (above) do you think a top swim-biker makes races more interesting to watch than a poor swimmer (eg Sanders or Long or Skipper or Jewett or Astle) who then works their way up through the field, to challenge (aka make it interesting) on the run? Of course because of the visual fetish of the cameras (as directed by the video production team) focusing on the front of the race, we don't see these athletes till the second half of the run, more's the pity.

I agree that a good smattering of athlete abilities makes for an interesting race. Good swim bikers getting caught by runners at the end of the race can be exciting. Although not much love has ever been shown for Langer when he has snatched the win in the second half of the run.

For the bike companies that sponsor athletes a good swim biker in a world championship pays dividends over a runner because of the guaranteed air time on thier bike, while a runner is trying to catch up and never seen biking on the broadcast. I think Lucy Charles-Barclay was a great catch by Cube as somebody who gets lots of air time and usually ends up on the podium. So annoying that Cube sponsor a British athlete yet they are so difficult to come by over here.

Sam Laidlow is a great bet for long term bike sponsorship even if he does still blow up on the run every now and then.

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He who understands the WHY, will understand the HOW.

I literally started with “in my option”
How closed minded can you be? Please learn how to have a debate and not just make ever thing into an argument.

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Full-time Engineer / Part-time Pro Triathlete
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/benwgoodfellow/
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.. not sure why they gave him such a big frame .. there is no belly to bounce .. oSo >>

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*
___/\___/\___/\___ the s u r f b o a r d of the K u r p f a l z is the r o a d b i k e .. oSo >>

Ironman Athlete Guide for 70.3 says it's should be 30s penalty for not staying to the right. So...it's in there. Does it get called? Maybe not - but it's in the rules. Littering and Drafting are 5 minutes, the rest are 30s.

I don't know. The IM athlete guide is vague but that is what they state the rule is.

So 30s plus decel and accel...it's a decent penalty - if it's a minute - that's a difference maker.

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DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!

To no one in particular but it is likely wishful thinking of those who insist his Kona ride was a one-off. The numbers he produced speak for themselves as well as his previous performances.

The kid is definitely the best swim-biker in the sport and his running is coming along. He will kick some serious ass in 2023 and smash the hopes of guys like Long, Skipper, Wurf and Sanders after about 300 m in the water.

Here's the rule - it is a bit "vague". The penalties seem to refer 'side-by-side riding' which will result in either 'drafting' (5 mins) or 'blocking' (30/60 secs). I read those penalties as being applicable to an athlete who does not ride both in single file AND on the right, unless exceptions apply. More wordsmithing for IM to cope with in their 2023 set of rules.
5.04 (h) Athletes must ride single file on the far-right side (or left side depending on local
law) of the bike course road except when passing another athlete (or for reasons of
safety). Side-by-side riding is not permitted and may result in a drafting or blocking
violation; (5:00 Minute Time Penalty or 30 or 60 Second Time Penalty (as applicable))
[exceptions listed at (i) on p20 of 30]
https://ironman.kleecks-cdn.com/cdn2/attachments/document/5326-2664364/2022_IRONMAN_Competition_Rules_-_English_Version_-_30march2022_-_FINAL_.pdf#_ga=2.218352282.2045724340.1648425032-260277762.1569464052

The thing about "riding right" is also to keep the roads somewhat structured. We hear all the time that the moto's need to not intrude or intefere, but their designated location on the roads is on the "outside" of the lane- to pass athletes safely and to have the least amount of drafting issues. If the lead rider gets to ride anywhere he wants, that increases the "artificial" advantage, etc. Thus if the motos stay left, the riders stay right (except for passing / safety issues), everyone stays out of each other's way (to the best that it can considering all the moving parts). Besides, how is the leader of the race suppose to know if/when they ever get passed and/or are then in blocking potential? Why would you waste that energy to check your rear, when you can just ride in a position that allows people to pass you without you having to worry.

Like I get it, SL could have been deemed to be riding perfectly fine by the officials.....cool. Even during his breakaway I'd bet he was without an official's moto more than he was with one. Remember if you have limited officials, there's no point in "wasting" one official on a rider who has 5 min advantage. Yes the front of the race has race official vehicles, but they are not "officials" that give out penalties at all times, they are more course marshals to keep the road clear. So I would just question the notion that "he didn't get penalized for it, so it must have been clean" in a sport that is so poorly officiated as ours and while also having video coverage of said events.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I thought Kona was an Ironman? The guide address is attached I quoted from.

A debate is a civil argument. You stated your point of view and I stated mine. We have differing opinions so be it. This chat forum would be a boring place otherwise. How precious can you be? Please learn not to be offended so easily.

The quote you posted said athlete must stay to the right. Must. Not is preferred to. It's vague but not staying right should result in the penalty based upon the word must in the rules.

Worst case - the spirit of the rule is to ride to the right, except to pass. But there's people who adhere to the rules and those who exploit everything they can during a race. Not saying SL is one of those people but pretty clear you don't give 15m to make sure you aren't drafting...

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DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!

Haha I call it flouting the rules. I'm a weak swimmer strong biker so I ride through the field but where circumstances make sense when you catch someone and have to wait before a pass be it a road obstacle, a roundabout, corner whatever I could essentially be breaking rules. If the road has a smoother line than the shoulder I'll ride to the right here in Australia. Or a weaker rider you just passed decides to pass you AGAIN only to slow down AGAIN I may not drop back the full 15m before passing him AGAIN to watch him disappear in the rear view mirror but I'm a not a drafter/cheat and adhere to the rules except in exceptional circumstances. Sam Laidlow is exploiting the rules to the maximum and no one deemed him to have crossed them. Chapeau to him!

Lange is the exception to the rule. Or at least used to be. It's a bad sign when all your fellow professional countrymen say your methods aren't quite kosher.

On multiple occasions he stayed behind a teammate all day, letting him sacrifice himself until the run.

Lange has had some strong bike performances in recent years, but in the past he was able to run up because of someone else's pre-planned bike effort.

Perfectly legal but don't expect people to be fans of that method.

The difference between amateur and professional sport. Just like Sam Laidlow draftinng the moto when he was in the lead of the race. Some call it cheating - but as a professional athlete what is he going to do? Drop back? Reading this thread it really seems to have peeved some slowtwitchers off. But professionals need to do what they need to do to win. Using a team mate to improve your bike split, drafing a moto that will not keep the legal distance. Its all within the rules.

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He who understands the WHY, will understand the HOW.

I agree if it's in the rules so exploit it and kudos if you get away with it but I frown more on this as it can mean teams (Erdinger) or athletes with a budget could now pay off who are supposed to be competitors in the swim and bike for an advantage. Now money is changing hands to manipulate the outcome of a race.

I have not heard of it happening - but I guess you would be stupid to think it has not happened. I do agree that paying somebody off for an advantage is not in the spirit of the sport and should be frowned upon. Is there anything in the rules against this? I am not sure - I think there should be if there is not someting there already.

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He who understands the WHY, will understand the HOW.

There is a caveat somewhere where you must give some honest effort. It came into play during LS’s Kona like 7-8 years ago when they paid Matt Charbot to domestique for him. He was literally swimming backstroke to “wait” for him, and they both acknowledged and apologized for it.

The difference between that instance and an Lange “teammate” issue is that Lange’s teammates have always actively been racing “hard”. They have never sat at side of road waiting for anyone or actively “giving up” their race . I mean these guys are then running full marathon to top 15 places not just quitting after T2 when their “team orders” are done.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Search blue train on ST. I don't know if the Erdinger team mates were paid to pull Lange, but they sure did a lot of work for him to win.

It's not against the rules. And of course it benefits him to do this. But those are beside the point. People don't like it because it is against the spirit of the sport. Of course we prefer to see someone win who did so purely by their own effort. We (to a degree) discount efforts when lead motos help and even when opponents work together on the bike. Having a teammate work for you in a pre-arranged way takes it another step further.

Lange using team mates falls in this bracket to me. Athletes make alliances on the road to put time on runners or to catch the better swimmers whatever but they work together or try and break away making a race interesting. Tell me another athlete that has regularly sat behind a team mate who hasn’t called for a turn pretty much for a large portion of the bike leg like happened in Kona. Alliances should be formed on the course for each athletes own greater good not by a hand shake before the race starts.

An athlete like Lange (or Haug, Philipp) whose run is top notch will 'always' take advantage of their competitors on the bike, whether they wear the same colour top or no. Look at Neumann or Sodaro at Kona; or Haug and Philipp. Very few team mates are riding close to one another. If Lange is in their group or (12m) on their wheel, Lange's team mates know he is the best runner: they have to pull to improve their position against the other competitors: Lange is an irrelevance: he's going to run away.
I wonder how BMC team mates Sodaro and Matthews would have dealt/cooperated with one another if not for Matthews' crash and DNS.
As for alliances, I take it you depreciate the Sanders/Long two up TT at the Collins Cup, to catch Laidlow.

OK...none of the other things are exceptional circumstances, but this just says enough about your view of following the rules. Which sucks to hear but I see lots of you out on the course. I just always hope people who just break little rules the whole bike leg have a really "fun" run because ultimately - nobody cares about your result, or mine...and we have to live with thinking that we either raced clean or we got away with shit because there wasn't a referee. All much clearer though.

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DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!

His post atleast points to the point I've made against his "ref's ok'd" logic. He's only riding that way with passing traffic because there is no official there. Athlete's behavior when an official is around will likely be much different than when they know no one is around to "monitor" you. So you pinch a little rule here or there, that's the whole counter point to his point, on nothing to see here for SL's ride. I 100% agree, he didn't get a penalty for it, so the ref said it was clean. But when you then have evidence that there are some "rule breaking" you don't then need to know if an penalty was given or not, which again is funny...no one tells the ref "yeah I broke said rule", it's always only a rule break if you get caught.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

It's interesting to just see people's psychology when it comes to racing. I was doing a 70.3 this year and a girl who was leading the women's AG race was starting to pass me. She's direct competition to one of my athletes, and as she was passing, still 10 yards behind - we could hear the referee motorbike behind us. I completely sat up - told her to pass and she said man, they are watching me!

The point - I guess I could've been a dick and pushed to try to get her a penalty to "help" my athlete - and some might have? But...that's not the way I want to be known or how I want my athletes to win races lol. But that ACTUALLY is in the rules, I could've forced that penalty for sure lol...but there's a sportsmanship aspect to it too. I guess there are people out there who would just say f*ck it...and do it? Not saying Shambolic would...but neither one of us would be surprised if there was support there.

Anyways - I try to race as clean as possible, and sometimes that's backing off before coming in the draft, or dropping back before passing - and it's just something I, as an athlete, need to realize lots of people won't do...

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DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!

And I’m not pulling out the morality card. But when you justify something with “refs didn’t call it”, in our sport that doesn’t hold a lot of merit. Granted pros will have much more eyes on them than AGers. 1st hand account noted an ref was not always w SL at the front (they usually don’t need to be w an solo rider 5 mins up the road, officials basically are there to monitor pack drafting). So if you complain about moto drafting issues while suggesting a front rider should have freedom on where they are allowed to ride….they have a solution to the issue, you’re just ignoring it imo. As I said every person on the road has an assigned riding location for both safety, course management and “fair play”.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Did money change hands? I hadn't heard that (I knew they had an agreement, etc), but if true, that is pretty low.

OK...none of the other things are exceptional circumstances, but this just says enough about your view of following the rules. Which sucks to hear but I see lots of you out on the course. I just always hope people who just break little rules the whole bike leg have a really "fun" run because ultimately - nobody cares about your result, or mine...and we have to live with thinking that we either raced clean or we got away with shit because there wasn't a referee. All much clearer though.[/quote]LOL got to love the slowtwitch forum. What I find interesting on what was supposed to be a post about SL having a new bike sponsor turns into a personal attack on him. Then after repeated attempts to argue the point he is a cheat and then basically being defeated when the rules are pointed out to you and why he wasn't penalised, you continue to drive your own narrative. Then when people edit the rules, add 70.3 rules, use what they call a morality argument, it is pointed out again you won't back down and to believe you have won the debate, you personally attack me and my moral character as to why I can't see the debate from your perspective. I work fly in fly out for work and away 15 x 12 hour days so thank you for helping to fill in my free time and I really don't care I'm just viewing my opinion that funny enough played out that way on the day.

As for my moral compass by 'flouting' the rules. I in no way seek advantage when I ride is my logic. I seek to not be disadvantaged. Abiding by the rules for that instant will cost me time and energy (a handful of seconds over an IM) so I figure I use logic as I am not seeking advantage. I never said I do it when there are no drafters present the start of 70.3 bikes the course is congested and everyone does it, once again that has been dragged in to discredit me and my moral compass to add weight to your failed argument by attacking me. That is how I ride regardless and have done it when I knew officials were present. I believe it seems pretty obvious to them I am not seeking advantage by drafting and I don't block. I was passed by one ride at IM Busselton in December (besides the slower rider that kept surging past me for a short spell before disappearing) and got off the bike in 3rd for my age group so there wasn't any real advantage to be had.

What I do find funny is someone bragging how they could have seeked advantage for one of their athletes by taking a competitor down but was a hero by not doing it. Never in my life would that thought cross my mind let alone bragging about it speaks volumes about someone's morality to me. Carry on I think I'm pretty well done with this post and thanks for the entertainment...

LOL got to love the slowtwitch forum. What I find interesting on what was supposed to be a post about SL having a new bike sponsor turns into a personal attack on him. Then after repeated attempts to argue the point he is a cheat and then basically being defeated when the rules are pointed out to you and why he wasn't penalised, you continue to drive your own narrative. Then when people edit the rules, add 70.3 rules, use what they call a morality argument, it is pointed out again you won't back down and to believe you have won the debate, you personally attack me and my moral character as to why I can't see the debate from your perspective. I work fly in fly out for work and away 15 x 12 hour days so thank you for helping to fill in my free time and I really don't care I'm just viewing my opinion that funny enough played out that way on the day.

As for my moral compass by 'flouting' the rules. I in no way seek advantage when I ride is my logic. I seek to not be disadvantaged. Abiding by the rules for that instant will cost me time and energy (a handful of seconds over an IM) so I figure I use logic as I am not seeking advantage. I never said I do it when there are no drafters present the start of 70.3 bikes the course is congested and everyone does it, once again that has been dragged in to discredit me and my moral compass to add weight to your failed argument by attacking me. That is how I ride regardless and have done it when I knew officials were present. I believe it seems pretty obvious to them I am not seeking advantage by drafting and I don't block. I was passed by one ride at IM Busselton in December (besides the slower rider that kept surging past me for a short spell before disappearing) and got off the bike in 3rd for my age group so there wasn't any real advantage to be had.

What I do find funny is someone bragging how they could have seeked advantage for one of their athletes by taking a competitor down but was a hero by not doing it. Never in my life would that thought cross my mind let alone bragging about it speaks volumes about someone's morality to me. Carry on I think I'm pretty well done with this post and thanks for the entertainment...[/quote]

Haha you do realize...you probably have the most posts on this right? I just pointed out, in your own post, the places you said you broke the rules of the race you signed up for. That's all. As for "bragging" no...I don't want a badge for it or anything. I am saying that it's interesting that there are people out there who would consider doing that in this world. Very unsportsmanlike...BUT that's actually legal.

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DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!

backstory was, Chrabot had KQ'd but wasnt going to go. LS and Barrie Shepley (his "advisor" at the time) contacted him to "work for" LS. Barrie has known Chrabot for years from the itu circuit. I'm guessing that all his expenses were covered and/or some part of the prize money, if applicable. I believe there was the idea of "hey you'll be there, LS will be there, and what do you know yall are together for the S and B". I know both came out over the month post Kona that year and apologized and took their beating from the sport.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Haha you do realize...you probably have the most posts on this right? I just pointed out, in your own post, the places you said you broke the rules of the race you signed up for. That's all. As for "bragging" no...I don't want a badge for it or anything. I am saying that it's interesting that there are people out there who would consider doing that in this world. Very unsportsmanlike...BUT that's actually legal.[/quote]Like not keeping right ;)

I had given up responding - but hey this is the internet!

The referee gave a judgement call. He would have seen Sam Laidlow riding from the gutter and into the middle of the road (following the moto that might not be at the strictly legal distance that Sam can do nothing about) and decided he/she was happy with that and moved on. I would have done the same and had a word with the Moto driver after the race.

Your judgement call would be to penalise Sam on the basis its what the rule book says. Fine - honestly I have no issue. Apply every rule as strictly as you see them - your call.

The race referee is there to give judgement calls and at that level would need to be experienced enough to make those calls in order to be appointed race referee. You don't see race referees taking tape measures out on the moto's to measure the exact distance between riders - they make judgement calls about drafting - and passing - and outside assistance etc. etc.

When I see something and the “refs didn’t call it” then its the refs decision. They are experienced enough to know when to give a penalty and when not to. You might think they made the wrong decision - fair enough. But they are the ones with the experience in the moment during the race making the call.

Sam was judged - by the referee - and was not penalised. That is fair justification in my book - and I can accept its not fair justification in yours. Go die on your sword - I don't care! I will carry on justifying my opinion by saying the “refs didn’t call it” and you can carry on quoting the race rules:

(h) Athletes must ride single file on the far-right side (or left side depending on local
law) of the bike course road except when passing another athlete (or for reasons of
safety). Side-by-side riding is not permitted and may result in a drafting or blocking
violation; (5:00 Minute Time Penalty or 30 or 60 Second Time Penalty (as applicable))

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He who understands the WHY, will understand the HOW.

I mean, why?

It's illegal for an athlete to be riding in the middle of the road without passing, as you noted.

The fact that some refs are very strict with rules (such as the one who dished out a penalty to Sam Long in 70.3 worlds for a situation he wasn't able to avoid) while others "rely on experience" and let Laidlow's behavior slide, even when the rule is broken on purpose, is the very problem that pros are complaining about.

(In case it mattered, I'm not in the fanboy base of either of the Sams, or maybe I'm in both fanboy bases, I haven't decided yet - anyway, unbiased).

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"FTP is a bit 2015, don't you think?" - Gustav Iden

Reread this scenario you brought up:

The referee gave a judgement call. He would have seen Sam Laidlow riding from the gutter and into the middle of the road (following the moto that might not be at the strictly legal distance that Sam can do nothing about) and decided he/she was happy with that and moved on. I would have done the same and had a word with the Moto driver after the race

And your 1st instinct is to blame the moto when you are suggesting the front placed athlete moved off the prescribed “ride right” position to get draft from the moto by “following the moto”.

That reasoning/behavior has me lost. We already have rules with having the least amount of interference as possible, your reasoning makes it even more cloudy.

And also I’ve not once called SL a “cheat” that someone else said. I’ve said it looked clear from the telecast that there was position fouls that weren’t called. Guess what happened in the pto Canada race, there was some obvious chase pack drafting that DIDN’T get called. Shit happens, you get called on it or you don’t. This has never been about a particular athlete, I’m pushing back against y’all’s pov. That it seems like your reasoning brings in more cloudiness within “artificial” advantages that the current rules have a solution for.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

The applicable rules:

(h) Athletes must ride single file on the far-right side (or left side depending on local
law) of the bike course road except when passing another athlete (or for reasons of
safety). Side-by-side riding is not permitted and may result in a drafting or blocking
violation; (5:00 Minute Time Penalty or 30 or 60 Second Time Penalty (as applicable))

(j) Athletes who impede the forward progress of other athletes will be given a blocking
violation; (30 or 60 Second Time Penalty (as applicable))

The only interpretation by which he broke the rules is by not riding "on the far-right side" of the road. The rules make no specification for what constitutes this area. Is it the far-right side of the entire road? Or just the far right side of your lane? Even if it's just the specific lane of road, where does "far-right" begin and end? The right half of the lane? The right 10%? An extreme interpretation penalizes everyone riding outside of the gutter.

Take out this specific athlete. Reread what he said transpired.

Athlete was riding in X and then decided to ride in Y to gain moto draft but then blames the moto. if athlete holds their line and ride in position x, then suddenly they aren’t drafting anyone. The moto isn’t in the way, it only gets in the way when an athlete deviates from the right side riding position. That’s what I’m pushing back against. And for thousands of races “riding right” has somehow never been argued what that means. Athletes just did it.

So If you’re admitting an athlete deviates from their line, that’s issue enough for me to say, let’s not allow that in our sport. Let’s not give athletes the leeway to “follow the moto”. And how I interpret the rules gives all parties the best chance to race clean and have the least impact w motos (who are assigned to stay left).

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

This is where I am coming from. Sam might have been drafting a moto - but its the moto's responsibiltiy to maintain distance. Sam cannot help that. The interpretation of where to ride in the road is down to the Ref. Some referees might call a penalty - others decide its not going to affect the outcome of the race & the moto is at fault - let it slide.

A strict implementation of the rules will in all probablilty end up in disqualification of most athletes from the race - wandering into a draft zone for a short period for example is not going to affect the outcome of the race. But strictly enfocing the rule its a penalty then a DQ. Most of the athletes in the race will wander into a zone at some point - intentionally or otherwise. Referees use judgement to decide what is cheating and what is acceptable behaviour.

Look at how Sam rides and behaves - its not affecting any result or impeding anyones race - the few times he is not to the far right of the road how much advantage does he gain? Move the moto to the correct distance and what are we talking about here?

The moto is at fault and Ref made a good call in my opinion. I accept that you can interpret the rules that Sam should have had a penalty - and some referees might have seen it that way.

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He who understands the WHY, will understand the HOW.

I'm with earthling on this one. What's the difference between drifting left to draft the moto and drifting left because the moto spooked you, or it changed wind conditions, or you just weren't holding a perfect line? Trying to assign intention in the rules is famously difficult, an athlete will always have an excuse.

Furthermore, how are the motos supposed to behave on a course with left-to-right crosswinds? No matter where the reasonably sit they will be providing a draft to riders behind.

Pardon the tangent, but it's also worth considering what effect these interpretations would have on future competitions. A strict liability policy of moto drafting would see increased penalties, especially for riders leading the race. I have to think this would be unpopular (re:Sam Long). A looser interpretation increases the bike speed and makes coming out of the water near the front more important, as we would expect less motos to be near chasing riders. It would also have an effect of favoring more popular riders. Not hard to see Sanders having more coverage during a chase than less marketable athletes.

And many are not with you and earthling, and that's all cool. I think most people can recognize the difference in moving your line to gain the moto advantage and moving off your line for a pot hole or wind pushed or spooked (those fall under "for safety reasons). If you are want to reason it was "safety" that you suddenly jumped on the wheel of the moto, more power to you. Most people would recognize a move that is an "fair play" and an "unfair play". But to each their own.

Cheers

"Intent" is probaly a huge factor in most official's officiating, obviously if you break an obvious rule (sitting 10m back for 2mi) you'll get dinged, but many instances "intent" actual is part of the decision making process. I'm suggesting that most people can recognize the differences in the movements you said they can't- drafting moto on purpose vs not holding a line from wind, etc.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Yeah it's all good. There's always going to be a gray area. Like if Laidlow moves over 1 ft towards the moto, or 6 inches, or 1 inch. Or only does it once, or 3 times. Point being that at some undefined point it goes from not being a penalty to a penalty.

Agreed that intent is often part of the official's decision, I just don't think it should be (at least not as often as it is). There's definitely a place for intent (i.e. Tuck Rule),but too much leads to frustration over what's allowed and what isn't (see: this thread).

Was his average 430W? Thats a lot to push at the front solo, many wouldnt break 380W. I just remember seeing the chasing riders that call ironman semi draft legal only take short turns into the headwind and sit up to quickly drop back behind. Thats not right either.

Braden Currie said they tested Race Ranger anti-draft system at Tauranga 70.3. would be nice if that helped clean up races.

Is there a reason for pros not to have a 20m draft zone at the worlds? Otherwise seems like the slower swimmers hold all the aces with more people talking about working together

So, any chance we can get back on topic?

Well having seen his latest video I would say the benefits of changing the frame from Trek to Canyon would be limited. However the support he seems to be getting is where the gains are to be had. If Canyon continue to suppot him with help to recuce his CdA and clever aero gains on equipment that will be where Canyon can make him faster. Maybe the change in equipment is worth a few seconds? Not sure. The support he is getting is almost certainly worth more than that - and seems to be ongoing which is where the sponsorship will benefit Sam. It seems to be more of a partnership than a sponsorship - they are not just chucking a bike his way and saying here ride that.

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He who understands the WHY, will understand the HOW.

Yeah. Far too much Laidlow in this thread. After the exposure on ST and elsewhere the refs are going to be 'hawk-eyed' for moto-chasing: I suggest he'll be deterred and ride like those chasing him next time: on the right. I thought after his swim hi-jack he was odds on for a penalty, Al Capone style if necessary. He solved that by going to the front and (with Neumann till the Norges caught them) staying there.

Not enough Canyon. What about all the other top (tri)athletes riding that remarkably slippery bike this year, with stock cockpit or otherwise?
Frodeno
Lange
Philipp
Laidlow
Sara
Bleymehl
one of the Canadians?
And an Aussie?
?
And for 2023 (have any of the above 'moved on'?)
Sodaro
Matthews
Pallant-Browne

Did you miss Sanders? Is he the Canadian or has he got new sponsorship now? Will Lange still expect a tow from the Canyon crowd or is he still reliant on the blue train for that?

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He who understands the WHY, will understand the HOW.

I used to rag on Lange for the blue train stuff, but he's had some strong bike performances in the last few years, taking pulls and all. Hopefully he keeps racing this way, so he can have more people cheering for him. He mentioned in a pre-GTA interview that he'd like to crack 2:30. That would be cool to see if it isn't preceded by a train ride.

My money is on Iden to crack 2:30 first - what a run he had in Kona. I thought Ben Hoffman might have got close if not quite there a few years ago - but I can't see him getting there now. I think conditions played a part this time, never the less I think Iden is the one to do it. My outside bet - David McNamee!!!!!! I still have hopes Alistair will get there and smash it - but looking less likely as years pass by :-(

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He who understands the WHY, will understand the HOW.

While it's for gravel instead of triathlon, Heather Jackson also signed with Canyon.

While Sanders might be on a Canyon, I don't think anyone would suggest that Sanders is slippery from an Aero perspective. From the showdown with Frodeno during the pandemic, we saw that he's actually pushing more watts than Frodeno (!) but is consistently losing time against him. And this was the first of his more measured bike segments - his goal for the race was not to walk the run portion, after having done so at a few races previously.

Honestly, Heather as an influencer I just don't understand. I'm not into gravel and not sure she's a name that will move a lot of bikes. Wonder why they weren't interested last year?

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

Has anyone watched the Sam Laidlow Youtube video ()? I'm quite curious what calf sleeves he's wearing there. He used to be with Compressport (and he briefly shows some of their socks), but the sleeves don't show any branding.

Probably Fusion