it depends. are you a [potentially] sub 9 hour athlete? i assume you're easily below 1:55 at oly distance?

To be honest, i'm not sure. I only really do sprint races so i'm not sure what my oly time would be.
i run mid 15s for 5000m and have similar bike splits in sprint races as people of who i know that went sub 9.
Obviously this is really vague and i might be miles removed from a time like that but i was just wondering what times people who achieved sub 9 set on shorter distances (5k for example or a 400m swim) and the workouts they did in their key training weeks.

Oops, something went wrong while editing my original message. Original question:

Hi everyone,

I usually focus on short course/draft legal racing. Since (in my country) all these races are canceled up until September i am considering to do my first full triathlon in September (assuming those won't get canceled as well). My main objective is obviously to just finish the thing and enjoy the experience but I'd like to perform to the best of my ability's as well. To get some inspiration for workouts i am curious what a typical training week looks like for the fop age groupers (sub 9 on a somewhat fast course) in the two months leading up to the race? Total hours per week, specific workouts, general advice everything is welcome!

Thanks in advance

I'll bite. Would you like to enjoy the experience or go sub 9? Those (in my own opinion) are very different things. Especially if you've only ever completed sprints. I slowly moved from sprints and olympics to 70.3 to full distance over years. In my own opitnion, going Sub 9 takes consistency and a deep base. It takes the ability to hammer long, psycologically draining sets and workouts and the ability to care for your body while doing so. I have only thought about quitting a race three times in all my years, all three came around mile 20 of the run on a full distance. You have to be mentally perpared for this... it is not a sprint.

In 'peak' weeks I'll be in 16-21 hours (this includes about 4-5 hours a week of cycle commute) so about 15-16 hours of 'training'. Lots of the time building bike base, were talking 5 hour turbo rides and building a solid FTP. Run workouts.... other than off the bike stuff long runs or sets of 800's at 6:00 pace ... say 20+.

I gave myself a full year of prep for my first full distance race (having had years of 70.3 and marathon work in the bag) and was fortunate to go sub 9. I repeated the feat the following summer with a short training block and relying on deep fitness due to a hernia surgery which curtailed winter training. Take a look at my race posts, they'll show a bit of the transition up to the full distance (going sub 9).

Not saying people (you) cant rock up and crush it (i hope you do) but a large amount of the jump you're looking to make takes years of volume with some smart and focused blocks built within that time to focus on technique/power/speed in swim/bike/run.

Build bike volume learn, to run quick on tired legs, and hope for some luck.

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Taylor Rogers

2024: IM Hamburg

Thanks for the reply!

Interesting stuff. i've run a lot of 110k weeks over the winter (69mpw i guess) and do the occasional 4 to 5 hour ride but obviously putting everything together in a great race is a whole different story, especially when the IM experience isn't there yet. I'll just see how it go's and learn from there for future races.

Go to Training Peaks and browse advanced full distance plans https://www.trainingpeaks.com/...thlon/full-distance/
There you will find "sample weeks" to give you an idea of how it looks like to train for a fast full distance performance

Going sub 9 for an athlete has nothing to do with x workout or program.

You have 10 athletes all go sub 9 and they have 10 different programs and coaches and then you have 10 athletes that got the exact same online program or a copied program for a coach and they go 9, 10, 11,12,13,14 etc.

Going sub 9 take power to wt strength, movement efficiency ( injury preventing and minimize energy over the distance) , proper race pacing and fueling. If you already have the engine and skills.

if you can go sub 1 hour for a sprint non draft you can go sub 9. if you have the above.
If you can go sub 1 hour for a sprint non draft you can't go sub 9. if you don't have the above.

I have gotten beat by a lot of guys in sprints and crushed them in Ironman. I have the above without the same engine as the do and they don't have the above but have the engine.

it comes down to a few other variables, mental focus and consistence.... but if you are a sub 60 min sprint triathlete you most likley have that already.

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Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter

I don’t think sprint distance time really factors in here. In a sprint, the swim is fairly important because the race is so short and the swim could be 25% of your total time. Ironman, you could be a 1:10 swimmer and still crack 9 because you could be a stud on the bike and run. I think the biggest determining factors would be an open marathon, or half marathon time, and how strong you are on the bike.

nope it is not. if you can swim 750, bike 20 and run 5 km under 60, you have the pedigree to do sub 9. sure the ironman is different ratios but if you can't sub 60 a sprint you can't sub 9 an iron man. you will never find a guy that can sub nine an ironman but can't sub 60 a sprint.

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Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter

I disagree with you. You could take a large man who was a stud swimmer as kid, who could swim 9 min, and hammer some bike watts on the bike and do the bike in 30 min, and run a 20 min 5k. This theoretical person could never go sub 9 without losing 20 lbs and years of running lots. Unless you planning on biking 4:30, you pretty much need to run 3:15 off the bike, which would mean being able to run a 2:50 open marathon if you wanna crack 9. And I think there are lots of people that could crack 60 min for a sprint that don’t have the running ability for that

I mentioned above yes some guys can go fast in a sprint lets say they do 1:08 but never do the right things for distance. So the race ends poorly 10:40 maybe.

But go find me a guy that has gone sub 9 hr for an Ironman ( properly measured) and cannot go sub 60 for a sprint. Once you find that guy get back to me.


As my point was sub 9 hr you need to already have the proper skill set and fitness to do sub 60 min sprint, but a sub 60 min sprint doesn't mean you have the right tools to come up with a sub 9 ironman.

So the poster on the thread sounds like he is sub 60 sprint. So I outlined what he would need to do be the sub 9 guy and not the guy that can sub 60 a sprint and never crack 10 on a Full.

Now if we wanted to be fun about it.

sprint race: 9 min swim/ 2 min T1 bike /30 min /2 min T2 / that leaves 17 min for a run. not 20 so that dudes time would be 1:03. he would not qualify for the discussion.

Now if he could do 9 +27 + 19 + 4 = 59 min he can therefore learn to do 49 min Ironman swim ( without even trying) bike 3.6 watts per kg for a 4:40 bike split or better, then add 6 min for T1 and T2 and he is at 5:35 to start the run and has 3:25. which if capably of a 19 min 5 km in a sprint tri a 3:25 is very possible. that is a 3:48 pace per km sprint vs 4:52 km at Ironman. over one extra min per KM on the run. COME ON SO EASY!!!

Enjoy your day

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Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter

You make an interesting argument, though I don't know many non pure swimmers that would swim 9 min, having said that, you will still need a sub 30 or sub 20 to account for transitions. But I would say those are the exception, most folks that race a sprint swim in 10.5-12 min that pull off a sub 9, should have no issues breaking 60 in a sprint.

Yes this.

Lots of bike volume and some long good bricks.

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https://www.strava.com/...tes/zachary_mckinney

I agree with you, but the OP just wanted to have a look to the weekly schedule of some random "sub 9 guy", not looking for the magic recipe to go sub 9; if I understood well

Thanks for the insights so far everyone! I can do a sub hour sprint (on a normal course) but sub 9 sounds like a whole different story.

Yes, correct.
i think i have a decent base on the bike and with mid 15min 5k i guess my run is also on the right track but i understand that putting everything together is a whole different story. Also the training is completely different. My bike training mainly consists of of cruising around at an easy pace and a weekly group ride with some fast cyclists, i have no idea what my ftp is to be honest so i was just wondering how some of the sub 9 guys structure their training so that i could get an idea on what a typical week looks like.

Some other thoughts on Sub-9 training in contrast to the comments you received so far:

https://www.samiinkinen.com/...waii-ironman-secrets

If you target one of the faster IM courses - Sub-9 can be achieved by 10-15 hours of trianing if you look at the people who are doing it - especially if you have the ability to do mid 15 5ks and sub-1 sprint.

As others have said here (and in other similar threads) and in my own opinion, that is an elusive thing to nail down. Even as an 'average' time... somepeople are simply able to swim/bike/run better than others or handle training loads differently. This is before course/weather/other (ie bike and equipment selections) which I beleive play a large roll in being able to get down to a sub 9 time. You need to be a master of all things training and equipment.

12 weeks before IM Barcelona - 13 hour average w/ low 7:40 and high 18 hours - race time 8:58
12 weeks before Roth - 11.5 hour average w/ low 5 (still getting back from hernia surgery) and high 16.25 - race time 8:57
12 week before Kona - 14 hour average w/ low of 5.5 (week recovery from Roth) and high of 18 - race time 9:51

Using Barcelona as a 'baseline' as I think overall I was well prepared and while the course would be considered fast as it was my first full distance I played it safe on the bike. I trained with less hours and a shorter block for Roth but was 'faster' than Barcelona, likely the course and nice weather on the bike helped get me to that time as I wasnt as fit. I was realy well trained and prepped for Kona but raced 'slowly' - experience with heat and course coditions being my limiter.

Again, you need to be in a position to handle multiple 14-18 hour weeks, and run tired. As been mentioned if you cant run a 3:15 marathon off the bike going sub 9 is likely not in the cards.

One of my 18 hour pre-Kona weeks

8.5 hours on the bike - (all my riding is indoors... so i do it by time.. not miles)
5.75 hours running - 46 miles
3.5 hours swimming - 14650 yards

A coach is best suited to help craft the proper (and personalized) plan to attack this, I know I would not have been able to get to where I have without mine.

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Taylor Rogers

2024: IM Hamburg

i don't think that would be difficult at all.

i get what you're saying, but saying that these two things (sub 9hr, 1hr+) are not mutually exclusive is pretty narrow-minded.

It's a bit generic but Gordo Bryn outlined a couple of various weekly structures that he's used in the past in a Kona qualifying year, which would be pretty similar to your sub-9 quest.

https://alancouzens.com/...6/01/your-kona-week/

If I were you, I'd get a coach. I'd communicate to him how much hours/week I have to train, what my current/past volume is like, what race I'm targeting, and then a soft goal. I say soft because you might realize during training that your ftp won't be high enough for a 4:15 bike, or you might struggle with injury during the cycle. I know guys who did sub 9 on 12 hour avg weeks and other guys who averaged 17, doubling every day.

Guys who excel at sprints aren't normally the same guys who excel at IM. Clearly you have the vo2max to go fast, but who knows how long you can go at 88%.

I find the sub-8 goal and training plan much more effective than the sub-9...

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Starting on July 22nd last year, I posted every session I did leading up to IM Maryland on strava because my friends were curious about what I was doing. You can see all of the them here if you'd like to: https://www.strava.com/.../161311/training/log. I ended up doing 8:47.

As others have mentioned, there are a lot of ways to get there. I rarely do testing anymore, but I would guess leading into that race I could do a 5K in 17:xx and swim 400 yards in 4:45ish (not sure what that would translate to in meters, 5:10?), both of which are not super fast. I am pretty strong on the bike (340-350 watt FTP depending on the season) and use that to ride relatively easily but still pretty fast. That was enough for me to get the job done, but I've also been training relatively consistently for a decade. YMMV.

To get some inspiration for workouts i am curious what a typical training week looks like for the fop age groupers (sub 9 on a somewhat fast course) in the two months leading up to the race? Total hours per week, specific workouts, general advice everything is welcome!


What I suggest people do if they are looking this is first break things down and look at the time splits for the three legs.

For a 9:00 IM a reasonably well balanced athlete would be looking at splits of 1hr/5hrs/3hrs - with a bit of give and take on each leg for individual sport variation and of course for the bike and the run in particular the geography of each course.

Then think about the training, particularly for the swim and the bike, that you can do those times, not as absolute PB's, but in a way, that you are not killing yourself to achieve those times - it's all sub-maximal. So looking at the bike - you want to ride close to a 5:00hr bike split, but that's not an absolute - you will have the fatigue of the swim in you, and you will need to run strongly after this (read-on). Thus, you really need to be way fitter than just being able to ride 5:00 flat!

For the run I have always been a proponent of the large importance of the run leg in triathlons, particularly long course races like the IRONMAN. Why - this is where place performance is REALLY settled in most races! If you are taking this serious, if a KQ is a part of the discussion here, you can INCREASE substantially your chances, by running well and strong over the final 20km of the marathon. Why? EVERYONE else is dying. So literally the WHOLE of the day and the race will come down to this. How do you reach this point of the race, to run that final 20km to the absolute best of your ability on race day. If you are looking at 9:00 - you probably need to be thinking by extension - how do I run close to a 3:00 hr marathon and thus 7 min/mile pace??

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

You say that but not one has been produced to prove I am wrong! Go find your unicorn.

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Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter

They are so common, in fact, that one has posted in this thread...

Not really a unicorn dude.

ETA - actually there are probably at least 2 in this thread who have gone sub 9 but probably can't do sub 1hr on a "real" sprint distance race.

I think well balanced would be more like 1hr/4:45/3:15, but probably splitting hairs. If you're going for a time based goal I'd guess the chosen course would be relatively flat. To go sub 9 on a tougher course would take a much better athlete, because you're right they'd need that 3hr marathon.

wow, 12 hours/week, those guys must have some crazy talent.... I would probably feel undertrained for even a sprint on volume that low. Yeah agree, a coach will make a big difference for a guy like me, pretty sure i won't come close to that 4:15 bike though :P

where does the 5 to 10 minutes of transition times come from? bike? run?

the op's question is always fun because there's just so many ways to get to 8:59:59 that it is fun to discuss and tell canadians they're wrong about everything.

For a 9:00 IM a reasonably well balanced athlete would be looking at splits of 1hr/5hrs/3hrs - with a bit of give and take on each leg for individual sport variation and of course for the bike and the run in particular the geography of each course.[/quote]
Thank you for your post

Even at advanced age I can see being able to do the swim and bike times.

But even when I was in my 20s and 30s and weighed 150lbs at over 6’ I could never come close for that pace in running even for a 10k

So strange. And depressing lol

lol, ok

:58/4:40/3:15

That's what my 9hr would look like if I could ever manage to do it.

I think well balanced would be more like 1hr/4:45/3:15, but probably splitting hairs. If you're going for a time based goal I'd guess the chosen course would be relatively flat. To go sub 9 on a tougher course would take a much better athlete, because you're right they'd need that 3hr marathon.


Here I'll admit to a few of my strengths weaknesses.

I came darn close to breaking 9 a few times back in the early 1990's. (9:04 and IMC was my best). My splits on that day were 1:00/5:00/3:04 (and probably 2 - 4 minutes of transitions embedded in there)

I was a "weak" swimmer, strong cyclist and even stronger runner (31 min 10K runner before getting into triathlon). Now - other than aero bars, you would laugh at what we rode on back in these days. So maybe, if you are to believe all the aero watts/time savings and gains, 4:45 is possible. Given where I was at - and I rode 5:00 flat or within a couple of minutes of that at 3 - 4 different IM's - 4:45 back then for me, would have been a BIG reach. I probably could have ridden that fast, given the fitness I had, but I was confident in my run and banking on a run split close to 3:00. So I tended to ride more conservatively.

At IMC where I had my best races, I was typically out of the water somewhere in the top 50 - 100. Would move up into the top 20 -25 on the bike, and then run my way to my final place - the 9:04 time from '92 was good enough for 11th overall!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

where does the 5 to 10 minutes of transition times come from? bike? run?

the op's question is always fun because there's just so many ways to get to 8:59:59 that it is fun to discuss and tell canadians they're wrong about everything.


1. I only ever raced IM's at IMC and IMH. Back when I was doing this in the late 1980's and early 1990's transition areas even at the larger IM races, were reasonably compact and you were in and out fairly quickly. I'd have to dig up actually hard-copy results of my races from back then, but I don't recall T1 and T2 being more and 3 - 5 minutes in total.

2. Yes - as Canadians we are wrong about everything! :-)

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Yea transitions play a huge role. At IMAZ the past two years they were quite a bit longer than previously. So anyone on the cusp of being a sub 9, sub 10, etc athlete would've struggled. I didn't waste too much time in T1/T2 last year but my T1 was a staggering 10 minutes (I did do a fair amount but did not waste time, I don't think). Just a really long run for T1 (although really fast people were about half of my time).


only about the important stuff

Thanks for the info!

I already train between 15 and 18 hours so i should probably focus on more specific workouts. I was thinking on building my long ride up to 6 hours with some long tempo blocks slightly above race pace. For the run i was thinking of building my long run until something like 30k at 4min/km. I will look for a coach but in the meantime, do these workouts sound good or should i go even longer?

Building the bike rides up to 6h sounds good to me. Once a week a long ride (up to 6h as mentioned with some Race pace/slightly above intervalls) and a second ride with some big gear work?

I don't know your target pace in your IM (4:15min/km for 2:59 Marathon?) but a workout like 30k at 4min/k will kill you before your race even started. Build your run workout up to something like 3-4x4-5k at IM Pace with some warmup, cooldown and easy in between you will get up to 30k.

The longruns i did were like this: starting really really easy (!) and building the pace to slighly above target pace. Starting at 1:30h and increasing the duration each week up to 2:45h 3-4 weeks before the race.

Don't smoke yourself before the race even started. I see this way to often that some athletes are fit as f*** but physically and, more important, mentally not fresh.

In my opinion the most important things:
-nutrition (develop a strategy and test it in your longruns and bike rides)
-mental preparation (it will hurt really really bad when you go for a time like sub9)


The best option should be a coach. He will prevent you from overdoing.

Yea transitions play a huge role. At IMAZ the past two years they were quite a bit longer than previously. So anyone on the cusp of being a sub 9, sub 10, etc athlete would've struggled. I didn't waste too much time in T1/T2 last year but my T1 was a staggering 10 minutes (I did do a fair amount but did not waste time, I don't think). Just a really long run for T1 (although really fast people were about half of my time).


Transition areas today are MUCH bigger (there is a HUGE difference between race fields of 1500 vs nearly 3000!!). They also make it so that EVERYONE has to run the same distance these days - this was not the case back in the earlier years, as an elite/pro or seeded athlete, you (unfairly), got to run the least distance in transition.

Also, some races just have ridiculously long transitions physically due to proximity to water etc . . . I think the run from water's edge at IMLP to the transition area is 400m - 500m. That's about 2+ minutes of running right there!

I seem to recall at IMC in Penticton the way transition was set up back in those days, it was 50m - 75m to the where the Pro/Elite bikes were racked. And that was in turn, right by the Bike Exit. So you ran your bike about 10m - 20m and jumped on! That's why the whole process of T1 was 2 minutes or less. T2 was about the same.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Strictly hypothetical since I haven’t accomplished it but I was on pace for sub 9 Florida 2018 before the Canadian in me fried in the heat but if I got lucky with weather I think I had a shot.
IM Whistler 2019 I had garbage training leading up and took the races easy and had a 9:49 including a mechanical on a very slow course so I think i have potential for sub 9 on a fast course if I put together a solid race (moved to Florida so heat is less of an issue.)

That said, no way in my wildest dreams could I do sub 1 on a sprint. At 5’10 175 with a 42” chest and 25” thighs, I got endurance and power but my legs can’t turn fast enough for that.

Close but no cigar. Proved my point. Also if you could do a sub 1 hr sprint. Then you would have been sub 9 for Florida easy. Time is not a good judge in ironman or sprints unless the courses are basically the same as well a sprint with 20 turn and 6 turn around will be much slower then a loop with no breaks. As no ironman goes perfect so all those guys at 8;30, 9, 9:30. Also had issues and could have gone a bit faster with no issues.

Like I said if I guy is looking at sub 9 as a goal he better first be able to do sub 1 hr sprint or he will have alot of bad races and bad excuses usually on things out of his control ??? But mostly just made an unreasonable goal.

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Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter

No excuses. Just context. I’m fairly new to all three triathlon disciplines but I know I’ll eventually break 9hrs. Just stating that I know I’m not too far off breaking 9hrs on a faster course but doubt I’ll ever get under 1hr for a sprint.

Train yourself to go sub 1 hr for a sprint then you will be able to do a sub 9 ironman. Trying going the other way you will break, burn out and give up before you reach peak fitness and skill.

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Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter

With the high volume you're already doing and a super fast 5k time you have the vo2 max already. Your bike plan of JRA with 1-2 group rides/week is less than stellar. Do some structured intervals on the bike if you're not already doing those. For IM, lots of longer intervals are common (4x8minutes, 3x10 minutes) but some 3-5 minute intervals are helpful to get work in above your ftp too. I find that I can't do as much high intensity running stuff as I can high intensity bike stuff without risking injury.

I dont buy that someone who specifically trains to go sub 1 hour could then (in the same block/focus) go sub 9.

I dont disagree that someone, somewhere has gone sub 1 hour in a sprint... then, later goes sub 9 or... during (years?) of prep for a sub 9 performace has clocked a sub 1 hour for a sprint. But I'd wager those occurances are less than frequent.

I think one needs to plan, assume they are not the special case, put in the work and focus to acheive their specific goal I've never gone sub 1 hour in a sprint, but can appreiciate the work that it takes can be compared to go sub 9 (having done that). Neither are an easy thing.

The OP makes comparison to sprints. If the ultimate goal is to go sub 9 its not the same and requires specific (different) prep to both acheive that goal and 'enjoy' (that is hilarious) the race. Not saying they wont crush it ( I hope they do). I say that as someone that has gone from sprints to olympics to half to fulls.

I'd fucking die if I took my 1:05 sprint and 1:55 (short bike.. whomp whomp) olympic ass and tried to race a sub 9 hour full.

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________________________________________________________
Taylor Rogers

2024: IM Hamburg

that is my point. you understand with your short course pace results, you wouldn't make sub 9 and would blow up. So you race smarter.

I never said with the same training protocol or program I said a program will not take you to sub 9. You need to have the tools x,y,z to be able to do the right work. and unless you have the skills and talent etc for a sub 1 hr sprint you shouldn't just grab a program for sub 9 . It just will not work.

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Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter

I come from a running background and what you are saying makes a ton of sense to me after watching a bunch of people shoot for and either fail or succeed at 3 hour marathons.

Speed at shorter distances is a necessary but woefully insufficient condition for success. If you can't break 19 minutes for a 5k, you're going to have a hell of a time trying for a 3-hour marathon even if you do everything else right. If you can break 19 minutes for a 5k, you still have to get nutrition, fueling, pacing, heat stress, technical issues, etc right and it's still easy to hit the wall and fail. It's sad to see people who do everything else right but just don't have the speed to break 3 fail at it because they've put in a big training cycle for something that wasn't really attainable.

roger that.

The biggest mistake in Long distance Triathlon is training for distance of a race over top speeds, strength , and moving efficiently.

Training Distance leads to injury, boredom, lack of quality training, and becoming the same pace every workout.

People start to think If I can hold x pace for one hour I can hold it for two. No wrong.

The elites of the world drop 2-3 % slower every time you double the time of activity.
The amateurs can drop between 4-25% every time you double the time of activity.

Why the elites only train speed (skill of movement and rhythm) strength (load of impact and bounce), moving efficiently (getting rid of improper moments which lead to deceleration and injuries).

You can go short distance without emphasis on these qualities but they show the longer you go.

The Op should be able to do it if he can sub 60 a sprint. He need the right coach not program to make sure he isn't wasting time doing the things he already good at.


that is enough for me I am out.

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Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter

Thanks for the detailed advice, yeah i think (if all goes well) i'll start at 4.15/km.

Aren't a few 5k repeats at IM goal pace way to slow to prepare your body for an IM run? Shouldn't you at least do those at open marathon pace?

You can also do it like this: 3-4x4-5k (1k @ 4:25; 2k@ 4:15; 1-2k @4:05). These workouts are all just examples and maybe these intervalls don't work for you. As I said a good coach should be the best option.

But in my opinion it's ok to run at target pace. For most athletes the limiting factor in an ironman is the energy. I think you should teach your body to work as efficient as possible at your IM-Pace.

If you want a lower cost alternative to a coach that is still dynamic and will adapt to your personal abilities, timeline and performance, check out our Plans at 2PEAK. We have had many athletes break that barrier and with your talent over shorter distances i am confident you could be another.

Cheers and keep training!
2PEAK.com

I am not sure, he is a solid runner with a 15 min 5k, so 30 k @ 4/km wouldn't be that taxing and well above open marathon pace. I know of one ~9 hour IM guy that does 30 km long runs at 4-4:15/km on a regular basis.

Good point.

But as I said I think it would be good to teach the body to run as efficient as possible at his IM-marathon pace.

Btw without knowing some data like threshold etc. it is nearly impossible to give him a good advice. Maybe he's able to run a much faster pace in an IM-marathon?

Get a coach do some test and do the work. With the sub9 goal you need to go to your limits and some athletes tend to go over that limit and maybe get injured before the race even started.

Yeah ill take it a bit more conservative this time, when i was 17 i signed up for an IM aswell and completely over trained so i don't want to go down that road again. I guess the best option is to get a coach asap and do a vo2 test to determine training zones since i haven't done that in years.