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Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference?
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Noticed that in some of the hillier IMs like France/Whistler/Lanzarote/etc, some Pros are choosing not to ride a disc wheel, and some of those Pros are supposed to be very knowledgeable including ex pro cyclist.
I know that unless it's a steep uphill only TT, disc wheel should always be faster, but curious on why they are making that decisions to not ride with a disc.

Could it be just the weight difference? Dif seems to be aprox 350gr when comparing to a light 60mm profile rear wheel, so not significant considering the aero benefit of a disc.

Other factors?
wind? for most people it's the front wheel depth that is important for wind stability, and also from those hillier IMs seems only Lanzarote is the one that have the wind factor.
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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [pabloarc] [ In reply to ]
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They aren't very knowledgeable.
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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [pabloarc] [ In reply to ]
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I might classify ex-pro cyclists as being generally less knowledgeable than triathletes when it comes to gear selection ...

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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [pabloarc] [ In reply to ]
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It would depend on how you had to come down those big climbs. If it were a super twisty mountain road, with bad road surface, I would opt for a non disc wheel. I just remember even on flat courses with tight turns, having that disc slip out when cornering. A few turns is no big deal, but if you had 100's, then all that braking might add up to negating the advantage. All depends on your skills too...
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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Why would a disc be more likely to slip out on a sharp turn?

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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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Have you never ridden a disc before? Just spin one in your hands sometime and then turn it, see how much more it fights you than a regular wheel. Also discs are typically stiffer wheels, so when you get to max lean on a turn, it does not give like a less stiff wheel would, thus breaking loose a tiny bit earlier..
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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [pabloarc] [ In reply to ]
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I thought Lanzarote had a no-disc wheel rule? Am I correct in remembering that?

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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [pabloarc] [ In reply to ]
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Now I get you're probably talking about established pros here but I can speak for myself and say that as of now I won't be running a disc at Eagleman 70.3 which is dead flat and maybe just a little windy. Not because I don't want to run one but simply because I don't have/can't afford one at the moment. I ran an aerojacket on my Chinese 88mm on my previous bike but now that I have disc brakes and no wheel sponsor I'm kind of SOL on the wheel front. I imagine that might be the case for some others as well.

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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Nope, have seen several people ride in Lanzarote IM with a disc.
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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [pabloarc] [ In reply to ]
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pabloarc wrote:
Noticed that in some of the hillier IMs like France/Whistler/Lanzarote/etc, some Pros are choosing not to ride a disc wheel, and some of those Pros are supposed to be very knowledgeable including ex pro cyclist.
I know that unless it's a steep uphill only TT, disc wheel should always be faster, but curious on why they are making that decisions to not ride with a disc.

Could it be just the weight difference? Dif seems to be aprox 350gr when comparing to a light 60mm profile rear wheel, so not significant considering the aero benefit of a disc.

Other factors?
wind? for most people it's the front wheel depth that is important for wind stability, and also from those hillier IMs seems only Lanzarote is the one that have the wind factor.

Sponsorship?
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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [pabloarc] [ In reply to ]
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pabloarc wrote:
Nope, have seen several people ride in Lanzarote IM with a disc.

I'm gonna go with sponsorships / funding, handling, and a disc isn't that much faster than a decent deep rim on the back.

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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [B.McMaster] [ In reply to ]
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Let's take one example from those Pros I'm talking about.

C. Wurf in IM France, and if I'm not mistaken also in Cannes triathlon few weeks ago.
He do have a disc and equipment available, as he have used it for other races.
And my understanding is that at least in cycling, he's very knowledgeable and have done testing with experts and top pro cycling team.
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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [monty] [ In reply to ]
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I ride a disc for virtually every race. I ride a HED so it's stiffness is similar to conventional wheels, but I am not convinced that a tiny difference in rim deflection will cause a noticeable difference in friction during a turn. Force vectors will be substantially the same.

Also for very sharp turns you won't be going super fast, the difference in gyroscopic effects between wheels should be limited, especially when there's only about a 15% difference in total weight of the wheel, and much of that extra weight for the disc is centered at a radius signifcantly within the outer radius of the wheel.

This sounds a lot like the cyclist mumbo-jumbo about how they can really feel the difference in the siffness of different top frames when they ride them.

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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [pabloarc] [ In reply to ]
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Why do you think that he is very knowledgeable?
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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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Also for very sharp turns you won't be going super fast, the difference in gyroscopic effects between wheels should be limited, //

Why do you only talk about a couple turns, maybe in a race. How about the 100 that are long, sweeping, high speed ones, you know the ones that you get coming down a mountain?? You gonna choose a wheel for the 2 turns, or the 100??


And you are right, most people will not turn well enough to test the difference in holding power, but most pros do, so there you have it..
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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [jimatbeyond] [ In reply to ]
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I assumed that as he comes from a pro cycling background and have been involved with Team Sky (now Ineos), which is known to have a lot of attention to details and "marginal gains". But I have never seen Chris Froome ride a hilly TT without a disc, so that assumption I made could be wrong :)
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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [pabloarc] [ In reply to ]
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Pro cyclists are told what to ride.
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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [pabloarc] [ In reply to ]
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Pro cyclists don't have to run off the bike - triathletes do. Maybe that has something to do with an ex pro cyclists choice? A solid disc can be harsh - a spoke wheel more forgiving for the run?

He who understands the WHY, will understand the HOW.
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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
Also for very sharp turns you won't be going super fast, the difference in gyroscopic effects between wheels should be limited, //

Why do you only talk about a couple turns, maybe in a race. How about the 100 that are long, sweeping, high speed ones, you know the ones that you get coming down a mountain?? You gonna choose a wheel for the 2 turns, or the 100??


And you are right, most people will not turn well enough to test the difference in holding power, but most pros do, so there you have it..

Still not buying it. So if we go a little deeper into physics, the required coefficient of friction to prevent loss of traction increases as lean angle increases (if you do a little bit of math, it reduces down to tan(lean angle) = coefficient of friction)) A less-stiff wheel will increase the effective lean angle at the interaction point of the tire and the road, requiring more friction between the rubber and the asphalt, meaning that a less stiff wheel is actually MORE likely to slide out in a turn than a stiffer wheel is.

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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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I would love to see a world class criterium race with disc wheels. Maybe do 1/2 and 1/2 and see who actually comes out of the corners better! I know who I'm putting my money on..Good talk, but since I have my own data points on this, like with a lot of aero claims, I will go with what I know to be true, and not what the math says in some incomplete equation..
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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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more flexible wheel has better bump compliance.

I remember years and years ago, when I kinda followed GP bike racing, that one of the manufacturers increased the lateral stiffness of their race bikes too much, making it harder to keep the bike planted in the corners. The next year they engineered flex back into the frame and swingarm.

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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Ok.... feel & intuition vs. physics is often a battle here on slowtwitch (micro accelerations anyone???) and even more so with cyclists.

A crit throws in acceleration variables that are not present in triathlon. You are not accelerating at 1000 watts out of the turn so as not to lose the draft of the person who completed the turn in front of you. But even with that.... the disc may win, I'm not sure.

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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:
Ok.... feel & intuition vs. physics is often a battle here on slowtwitch (micro accelerations anyone???) and even more so with cyclists.

A crit throws in acceleration variables that are not present in triathlon. You are not accelerating at 1000 watts out of the turn so as not to lose the draft of the person who completed the turn in front of you. But even with that.... the disc may win, I'm not sure.

Trackies all ride discs, all the time, even for "criterium-ish" races like the points race. but the effective lean angle is less due to the banked track, and a smoother surface... hmmm.....

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Last edited by: JasoninHalifax: May 24, 19 9:46
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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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If you're in a situation that without lateral flex you will significantly reduce normal force I could see that being true. And with racing motorcycles that often have to clip the kurbs when cornering side by side, it could be bad. But with the difference in flex we are talking about with these two wheels, the flex of the tire is the primary method of absorbing small bumps. The difference in flex of the two wheels is insignificant compared to the flex of the tire. If the tire can't absorb the bump, the extra flex of the wheel is not going to do it and normal force is going to decrease pretty much the same amount with either wheel.

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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
RowToTri wrote:
Ok.... feel & intuition vs. physics is often a battle here on slowtwitch (micro accelerations anyone???) and even more so with cyclists.

A crit throws in acceleration variables that are not present in triathlon. You are not accelerating at 1000 watts out of the turn so as not to lose the draft of the person who completed the turn in front of you. But even with that.... the disc may win, I'm not sure.


Trackies all ride discs, all the time, even for "criterium-ish" races like the points race. but the effective lean angle is less due to the banked track, and a smoother surface... hmmm.....

Yeah I was going to mention that. Always race with a disc in the rear. It's faster. I've actually thought about doing a crit with a disc, but really don't want to deal with potential destroying a very expensive wheel. That and I get endless amount of crap for it. haha



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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:
A less-stiff wheel will increase the effective lean angle at the interaction point of the tire and the road,

Would it? I think it'd be pretty situational. If the rider knows the bike well enough that he can ride right at the adhesion limit, then he's going to know the inflection by "feel" and put the effective lean angle at the tire to what it needs to be do achieve the necessary adhesion. If the wheel is flexing when he does that, he has to slightly increase lean above the inflection point to compensate for the flex. Whether riders can reach this level of "being the bike" I don't know. But I've seen some pro criterium riders who seem to be able to do near magical things in corners.
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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
Trackies all ride discs, all the time, even for "criterium-ish" races like the points race. but the effective lean angle is less due to the banked track, and a smoother surface... hmmm.....
The banking is designed to keep the effective lean angle close to zero when ridden at race speeds. For the most part, there's no cornering on a velodrome.
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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [trail] [ In reply to ]
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Continental used to have a write-up on their website about testing tires and the 'stick-and-slip' effect. When you're on the edge, you can often feel this feedback from the tire of short slips and then sticking again. A well known effect in friction (used to do tribology for a living). Good crit riders are very sensitive to this and have bunches of other tricks above my ability level like applying extra force to the pedals at sketchiest points and rocking the bike to get in extra pedal turns.

Wet surfaces usually mean going down on the first slip though.
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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
RowToTri wrote:
A less-stiff wheel will increase the effective lean angle at the interaction point of the tire and the road,

Would it? I think it'd be pretty situational. If the rider knows the bike well enough that he can ride right at the adhesion limit, then he's going to know the inflection by "feel" and put the effective lean angle at the tire to what it needs to be do achieve the necessary adhesion. If the wheel is flexing when he does that, he has to slightly increase lean above the inflection point to compensate for the flex. Whether riders can reach this level of "being the bike" I don't know. But I've seen some pro criterium riders who seem to be able to do near magical things in corners.

In what situation would a less-stiff wheel deflect in a way what would decrease lean angle? And the rider increasing his lean angle would make things only worse. The riders on each bike have the same options available to them in how to maneuver the turn so let's take that variable out.

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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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If the rider is weighting to the inside, so the bike is more upright? Maybe??? I haven't thought that one all the way through, but that's a guess.

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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
If the rider is weighting to the inside, so the bike is more upright? Maybe??? I haven't thought that one all the way through, but that's a guess.

Yeah but the rider in the bike with stiff wheels can do that too.

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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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I know, but do the less stiff wheels move more for the same rider input?

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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Well, in the end, unless we are talking about a wheel made out of twizzlers, I think the differences are so tiny that this is an academic discussion that makes no percievable difference to the rider.

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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:
Well, in the end, unless we are talking about a wheel made out of twizzlers, I think the differences are so tiny that this is an academic discussion that makes no percievable difference to the rider.

I agree, I don't think it's perceptible at all. But marginal gains, baby!!! Isn't arguing over imperceptible minutia what we do around here?

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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:
In what situation would a less-stiff wheel deflect in a way what would decrease lean angle? And the rider increasing his lean angle would make things only worse. The riders on each bike have the same options available to them in how to maneuver the turn so let's take that variable out.

Required lean angle is dictated by speed and radius, and the bike-rider combination is a dynamic system. The rider determines the effective lean angle to counter centripetal force and also staying under the adhesion limit of the tires. If the bike part of the system changes geometry in the middle of the turn, the rider part of the system will compensate.
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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [trail] [ In reply to ]
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I agree.

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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [realbdeal] [ In reply to ]
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Why would you get disc brakes and not a disc wheel if you’re trying to go fast?? Please don’t say cost or sponsorship, neither would make any sense.

At eagleman you might want to rent a disc if you don’t own one. Part of being a professional is prioritizing expenditures, I just can’t understand why a pro would show up with inferior/slow equipment unless it’s subtle self sabotage or ignorance.

On a budget I would ride Ultegra Mechanical, rim brakes, pick up a set a used wheels and that is just not an expensive proposition and as fast as anything.

A pro I know who won numerous bike legs on the shiv dumped it for a brand I won’t mention, and the thing did nothing but fuck up. Speed concepts and shivs are so cheap and so reliable.

Not trying to be a weenie, and I’m rooting for you, I just have a hard time understanding people’s decision making. Take the disc rental out of the ice cream budget.
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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Ex-cyclist wrote:
I've actually thought about doing a crit with a disc, but really don't want to deal with potential destroying a very expensive wheel. That and I get endless amount of crap for it. haha


I'm pretty sure USAC has rules against this.
Last edited by: jhammond: May 24, 19 14:21
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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [DBF] [ In reply to ]
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DBF wrote:
Why would you get disc brakes and not a disc wheel if you’re trying to go fast?? Please don’t say cost or sponsorship, neither would make any sense.

At eagleman you might want to rent a disc if you don’t own one. Part of being a professional is prioritizing expenditures, I just can’t understand why a pro would show up with inferior/slow equipment unless it’s subtle self sabotage or ignorance.

On a budget I would ride Ultegra Mechanical, rim brakes, pick up a set a used wheels and that is just not an expensive proposition and as fast as anything.

A pro I know who won numerous bike legs on the shiv dumped it for a brand I won’t mention, and the thing did nothing but fuck up. Speed concepts and shivs are so cheap and so reliable.

Not trying to be a weenie, and I’m rooting for you, I just have a hard time understanding people’s decision making. Take the disc rental out of the ice cream budget.
A number of reasons. I am trying to go fast. I'm also trying to stand out. I believe this bike will achieve both of those things. Now I'm coming from racing on a 2012 p3c that is probably at this point becoming borderline unsafe to ride. The only reason I was on that to begin with was because I got it for $550. There are some aspects to my new bike that are essentially "sponsored", however the aspects that I am still responsible for (groupset) I went the budget route and am running 1x mechanical because I already had the shifter and a couple other parts. It is a bit funny to be running 1x mechanical on a 2019 superbike but here I am. I accepted the wheels that were given to me, and as of now I only have this one set. I truly believe my results will speak for themselves and I think I am in a good position to represent brands but I recognize that won't come immediately. I would absolutely love a disc and have definitely considered renting one for Eagleman but I don't think race day wheels even rents disc discs.

So essentially this is a "budget build" for me, in the aspects that I'm paying for. I would love to get it into a wind tunnel and see if the design is a gimmick or not but I have no doubt it will be crazy fast on flat courses.

Also on your note of why would pros show up with inferior/slow equipment; simple matter of fact that not everyone can be on THE FASTEST bike. Lets assume thats a speed concept, are we faulting Daniella ryf and Frodeno for being on a Felt and Canyon? Regardless of what are likely minor differences in speed, its pretty common knowledge that most pros aren't making a living from prize money. A bike sponsor is the dream right? In the same way that I haven't had money (and still don't) for years and have just been making the best of the equipment I have an can afford, so is each pro just getting the best position and speed they can on their bike (with the limiter here being sponsor gear instead of money).

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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [jhammond] [ In reply to ]
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jhammond wrote:
Ex-cyclist wrote:
I've actually thought about doing a crit with a disc, but really don't want to deal with potential destroying a very expensive wheel. That and I get endless amount of crap for it. haha


I'm pretty sure USAC has rules against this.

UCI definitely does, USAC I'm not sure as I've seen a few people do it. I don't really feel like muddling through their useless website to check though.



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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
I thought Lanzarote had a no-disc wheel rule? Am I correct in remembering that?


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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [pabloarc] [ In reply to ]
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i remember a thread here where it was argued that the 'sail' effect from a disc is offset by a significant increase in rolling resistance. maybe there's more information floating around about that, and pros don't use them when non-optimal conditions are expected?
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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Certainly in the rain you want to leave the bike as upright as possible and lean your body weight to the inside in the turn.
Obviously the weight is on the right foot and the left-hand in the left turn.
In an IM it is not a real factor but I do get a kick out railing the corners when dudes are on my wheel.
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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [realbdeal] [ In reply to ]
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Dude. Just get a Wheelbuilder wheel cover. They make them for any depth wheel. I have one for my Zipp 808 and it just covers the center so you can still see the cool Zipp logos. Doesn't add any significant weight and you get to use your existing wheels. No drama.

Here's my bike with a Zipp 404 front, 808 rear with wheel cover for maybe 80 bucks. https://www.instagram.com/p/Bu08UMejo_S/

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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [ZenTriBrett] [ In reply to ]
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Dude. I rode a wheelbuilder cover for 2.5 years but now I'm on disc brakes and they claim they're not compatible with any disc brake wheels. Ha believe me I would if I could. I'm sure I could fashion something up but not sure if I can in the next week.

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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
, and not what the math says in some incomplete equation..

So true.
Its a tansient efect when hitting a bump or step or what ever, not a steady state equation.
Other effects not allowed for inc
- changing radius of the curve, whether due to tue rider or forced by the curve or the road tightening
- the gyro forces (at 90 degrees to direction of their 'yawing' in a turn - picking the bike up or pushing it down a bit
And a load of other transient effects some of which are not linear, or are rate dependent etc.
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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [buzz] [ In reply to ]
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buzz wrote:
i remember a thread here where it was argued that the 'sail' effect from a disc is offset by a significant increase in rolling resistance. maybe there's more information floating around about that, and pros don't use them when non-optimal conditions are expected?

Interesting, but why would there be a 'significant increase in rolling resistance '?

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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Ex-cyclist wrote:
jhammond wrote:
Ex-cyclist wrote:
I've actually thought about doing a crit with a disc, but really don't want to deal with potential destroying a very expensive wheel. That and I get endless amount of crap for it. haha


I'm pretty sure USAC has rules against this.

UCI definitely does, USAC I'm not sure as I've seen a few people do it. I don't really feel like muddling through their useless website to check though.

From the USAC rule book, section 1l1(c) (general rules)
“ Wheels may be made with spokes or solid construction”
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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
Also for very sharp turns you won't be going super fast, the difference in gyroscopic effects between wheels should be limited, //

Why do you only talk about a couple turns, maybe in a race. How about the 100 that are long, sweeping, high speed ones, you know the ones that you get coming down a mountain?? You gonna choose a wheel for the 2 turns, or the 100??


And you are right, most people will not turn well enough to test the difference in holding power, but most pros do, so there you have it..

The bike wants to go straight and stay upright because of the rudder effect. It's like having a big honking fin on the back of a surf board (or waterski:). The solid disk wheels certainly are funky. The foam disk that I built which is a spoked wheel rides great but it's heavy 1300 g IIRC.

The roads we were on this weekend, the road bikes did well because of the climbing and compliance. Not one racer was using a disk. I could easily taken the roadie I was riding with on the flats but by hammering the climbs more than I wanted to, she would just catch up.

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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:
Why would a disc be more likely to slip out on a sharp turn?
My Super9 definitely is a hell of a lot stiffer than my spoked 808. It's very, very noticeable.
There's absolutely NO GIVE from the disc when cornering.
So, instead of allowing some flex, the disc, even when tires are at optimal pressure, kind of skips across the road, if I come into a turn "hot".

A spoked wheel, even a deep-profile one, provides a lot more compliance, and a smoother ride, compared with a disc.

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Last edited by: philly1x: May 28, 19 18:59
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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:
I ride a disc for virtually every race. I ride a HED so it's stiffness is similar to conventional wheels, but I am not convinced that a tiny difference in rim deflection will cause a noticeable difference in friction during a turn. Force vectors will be substantially the same.
If you don't know, you don't know.

RowToTri wrote:
his sounds a lot like the cyclist mumbo-jumbo about how they can really feel the difference in the siffness of different top frames when they ride them.
I've ridden a lot of different frames, and wheels. It's not mumbo jumbo. It's quantifiable, but more importantly, the subjective feel—the handling—is markedly different b/t a spoked wheel (Hed) and a foam core/"sandwich layup" wheel (Zipp).

I've raced both. The Hed is more comfortable, the Zipp is SO MUCH stiffer. The Hed corners like a spoked wheel—it flexes—while the Zipp offers zero compliance, so the tire and frame flex. Or not, and the wheel skips underneath the rider (which was a little scary).

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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [pabloarc] [ In reply to ]
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pabloarc wrote:
Noticed that in some of the hillier IMs like France/Whistler/Lanzarote/etc, some Pros are choosing not to ride a disc wheel, and some of those Pros are supposed to be very knowledgeable including ex pro cyclist.
I know that unless it's a steep uphill only TT, disc wheel should always be faster, but curious on why they are making that decisions to not ride with a disc.

Could it be just the weight difference? Dif seems to be aprox 350gr when comparing to a light 60mm profile rear wheel, so not significant considering the aero benefit of a disc.

Other factors?
wind? for most people it's the front wheel depth that is important for wind stability, and also from those hillier IMs seems only Lanzarote is the one that have the wind factor.

'other factors' - they just don't want to ride a disk. It's not a quantitative decision. There's no data. They just don't want to ride a disc. Not everyone follows a precise data driven approach to gear, as much as ST dislikes it.
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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [earthling] [ In reply to ]
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earthling wrote:
Pro cyclists don't have to run off the bike - triathletes do.

Unless you are Chris Froome ;)
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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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i wish i could find the thread. i think the idea was that the lateral force increased the rolling resistance somehow, but i don't remember the details. i think someone from ERO chimed in on the thread.

the notion is plausible to me, but i don't know enough to know if its true.
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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [buzz] [ In reply to ]
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buzz wrote:
i wish i could find the thread. i think the idea was that the lateral force increased the rolling resistance somehow, but i don't remember the details. i think someone from ERO chimed in on the thread.

Was this for a disc rolling in a straight line? Or was this for a disc while cornering?

If you are ever able to get more info, l would definitely be interested to read it ...

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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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it was all about when there is a crosswind. so the sail-effect was subverted by the increase in rr.
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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [buzz] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting.

I wonder if the additional side force (from the sail effect on the rear disc) increases the friction at the tire contact patch?

Anybody else heard of this, or has any data about it?

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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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I’m going to guess that if you see a pro riding an 808 etc when the ideal wheel is a rear disc that it is largely travel related. Ie don’t want to travel with a 3rd wheel, don’t want to ride 300-600km on a disc between away races, less stress if you break a spoke etc (try fixing a spoke at a shop on some of the closed spoked discs)

Etc, etc

Maurice
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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [pabloarc] [ In reply to ]
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pabloarc wrote:
Noticed that in some of the hillier IMs like France/Whistler/Lanzarote/etc, some Pros are choosing not to ride a disc wheel, and some of those Pros are supposed to be very knowledgeable including ex pro cyclist.
I know that unless it's a steep uphill only TT, disc wheel should always be faster, but curious on why they are making that decisions to not ride with a disc.

Could it be just the weight difference? Dif seems to be aprox 350gr when comparing to a light 60mm profile rear wheel, so not significant considering the aero benefit of a disc.

Other factors?
wind? for most people it's the front wheel depth that is important for wind stability, and also from those hillier IMs seems only Lanzarote is the one that have the wind factor.

To add some perspective, a Roval 321 Disc is nearly the same weight as deep section traditional rear wheels.

Roval 321 ~1000gr
Zipp 858NSW ~942gr

The separation between deep wheels and disc wheels is closing down
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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [jimatbeyond] [ In reply to ]
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jimatbeyond wrote:
Why do you think that he is very knowledgeable?

so your argument here is that cam wurf rides the gear he does because he's simply too stupid to ride anything else? because the brain trust on slowtwitch have it all figured out and he doesn't?

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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [iron_mike] [ In reply to ]
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I don't know about Cam Wurf's specific equipment choices, but here is an interesting thread from a few years ago:

https://forum.slowtwitch.com/...in_Kona!!!_P5925555/
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