Wurf was one of the most impressive races in Kona for me. It was a day he should've been way behind, or lots more should have caught him. Today, he was not far off Terenzo, and he keeps improving. Regardless of the 20m draft...if they get a day like...2001? 2? where Steve Larsen biked 4:50 or something and was way off front, I think he has a very legit shot the way he keeps improving.

Fun race to watch on the tracker even!

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DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!

Windy day and 20m draft zone and he beats Lange by 3-5 minutes after outbiking by 20-25 minutes. On a high TSS bike day Lange does not have 2:40 in his legs. On these low TSS days that he got lucky with, well sure. There is a reason why Lange does not win non Kona IM's. There is not such a massive train for him to lower his TSS with. Give Cam a 20m draft zone and a windy day and the fastest runners run 5 min slower than they have been and Cam has a fighting chance.

Regardless, Cam has had a super year. I am really amazed how close Terrenzo was to Cam off the bike though. That was the revelation of Western Oz for me.

Terenzo has really elevated his cycling over the last two years, but pretty incredible race for sure.

I don't think Wurf wants the rules changed to benefit him, I think he just wants to win the race as it is. At least that's the impression I get from him. When he broke Normann's record last year, he tweeted that it didn't count because Normann won the race and he didn't. He recognizes it's a triathlon and I think he would rather win the race in front of him. Just my impression.

I agree, I think Lange won races that were set up well for him, but you could say the same for Crowie 2008-9 perhaps. But the champ he is showed in 2011. I agree though, he was nowhere close to Frodeno in Frankfurt and was off the bike with him essentially. He's made for Kona for sure.

Madame Pele will give us a good year this year...we are due...

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DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!

Spectating the race, it really was unreal to watch Cam Wurf ride like a demon possessed. Just next level. To note, his and Bozzone’s bike handling skills around corners at warp speed is amazing to watch.
To note, both fellas came to the finish and had chats with everyone until very late!. Ultimate professionals.

We're like several months on and *still* fabricating specific conditions in an alternative universe where a mediocre 8th place might have won?

Cam runs more than 5 minutes slower than usual on a high TSS day.

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Not at all surprised. Both seem like great dudes - the type you would love to have as training partners.

Not all triathletes give off that vibe haha.

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DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!

In this one, it's all about Bozzone for me. What an incredible performance, and two amazingly strong showings in his first two races, post-accident. Talk about a strong comeback, wow!

Another salient point is that Bozzone only beat Wurf by 1:40, a small margin over almost 8 hrs of racing.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

He passed me on the bike and it sounded like fighter jet. Like I was not moving at all. I wanted to cheer but was too tired.

Hands down the best thing about Ironman triathlon

One of the pros encouraged me on the run too. I didn’t recognize him but I’m going to try and figure out who it was. I am a fan forever

You're basing that off what races he has done recently?

Really happy for Terrenzo, just an awesome comeback between the 70.3 and yesterday’s win. Hopefully he will be in great shape in Kona and have the race he deserves!
As for Cam, very good result considering what time of year it is. I believe he will continue to improve on the run, and wouldn’t be surprised if he ran sub 2:50 next year.

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Terrible Tuesday’s Triathlon

With Kona qualification done (two spots at IMWA I think) his plan of training and racing the LA Marathon should be interesting. A real run block is something that most don't have the time to do, but with his bike durability, he should be able to run near 2:50 for sure. I was impressed with how he looked running in Kona, it looks like he can certainly "get there" to me. He might need the perfect day for him with exceptional winds etc but he is putting himself in the conversation on that day. Of the three from 2017 who were off the front, he backed it up best for sure.

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DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!

Yeah LA will be interesting for sure, sub 2:40 would be a good result for him.
I do believe that with the improvements he is making, that he needs less and less external factors to be in contention, I mean 5 more min on the run and he will win most races he enters.

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Terrible Tuesday’s Triathlon

He seems to be super durable, and he seems to have a lot of people who are experts working with him. I'm excited to see where he ends up going.

I would think sub 2:40 would be good - see how the people at Nike help him out.

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DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!

Bozzone is supposed to be racing Bahrain 70.3 on the 8th too. Three wins in three weeks?

Great comeback for Bozzone. He was even 4 and half minutes faster 2 years ago so unless the conditions were so much different he was probably using this as a brick session.

That 20 meter rule might have to be longer for lead motos and camera bikes

Superb point re Lange not winning non Kona IM's - needing the long trains of the uniquely stacked field to get a low enough TSS on the bike to unleash that run.

As for Cam, impressed. Is that 7 IM's? I wonder if this is his learning and development year and he'll cut that down next year to go all in for Kona. It's run legs that would suffer the most (or need managing pace wise) on that sort of schedule so it's possible he had a faster run in him even this year than he's shown, regardless of what he can add for next.

His Strava run is a spot-on 42.2k as well. Probably his best run to date.

Pretty sure he said he would be racing less fulls next year, though still racing more than most.

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Terrible Tuesday’s Triathlon

Since Cam got hit Kona q done, a good bet would be 1 IM during spring/early summer, and then Kona. But Cam being Cam, who knows :)

He is racing Challenge Daytona 70.3 next weekend. Along with Starky, Potts, Matt Russel and others.

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We need a time based draft zone. The zone where you have advantage from the one in front of you grows with speed so a fixed size draft zone doesn't make sense. A time based draft zone (2 sec for example) is easy for an athlete to check and penalties could also be given based on passing times on timing mats.

Interesting idea... Only timing mats don't discern between left in the lane or right and if it did it would be a moment sample. You would prove someone was close at that moment but it doesn't show if the rider was sitting up braking, passing, getting passed, or following too close with intent to gain benefit


Just thinking out loud
If the GPS tech accuracy was there, the ideal would be GPS timing chips and a program that calculates how long each rider was violating for... Then penalties served to only the top percentage... The down side is athletes racing at the conjested time slots would get punished over people that drafted less but in a way that influenced kona slots or results. In top of that the system would have to be transparent... Which makes it a usable... Eg. If you know that the top drafters drafted for 8 minutes... Then an athlete might think 5 is safe next race. But eventually after a few races that would whittle down and you could use stats to work out who was significantly out of the norm that day. There might have to be an algorhythm based on category position so that drafting 3 minutes to podium would be worse than drafting 12 minutes to bop. Or at least that you're comparing to peers in your group. Perhaps a logarhythm that factors in speed since the benefit is exponential

Seems overly complicated...
Why not end all the complaining by allowing drafting on the bike? That's already allowed for the run (modest impact) and for the swim (big impact) after all. Ironman was a solitary effort in 1978, when people were 15 on the start line and most of them knew nothing about training and nutrition.
Plus, I understand a bunch of ST members hate Lange for his conservative tactics, but a draft legal bike in Kona would not be at his advantage. He would have to handle a lot more surges, and would likely be invited to take his fair share of pulls at the front of his group if he doesn't want the pace to decline. He would burn more matches during the ride. Meanwhile, the uberbikers that can swim would be able to unite their efforts at the front of the race and try and get a big gap before the run.
The swim would also need to be lengthened. 6k would be ideal.

Yeah probably overcomplicated lol

Definately mixing the format up will tip the favor for different athletes,... Longer swim (always seemed fair) , Run first, 3 1/3races, 50 zwift bikes, women on Sunday, etc

If you listen to the commentary, they seem to have quite a lot of phrases leaning away from the solo time trial ideal
Phrases like
- compared to recent years when you'd see packs of 30 or so riders
-group of men chase group
- wurf working together with starkowics
- Kienle working with Sanders

the motos potentially give the most advantage, they need good rearview mirrors

Safety...but they could ban aero bars and allow drafting.
Double timing mats could register direction of movement, several timing mats in the space of 500m-1km could calculate average time to rider in front and which rider that is (to avoid getting penalized if you happen to overtake in that section). If someone is registered right at the border each time it basically means he's riding as close to rider in front of him as legally possible to gain as much as he legally can. So basically he's trying to legally cheat as much as he can without actually cheating. It could mount to a lot of people in the penalty box, but penalties could also be handed out after finishing. The way it is now is that only a fraction of those who draft get caught. And the top athletes riding at 40+ km/h, even while drafting legally, optimize that to take advantage of the rider in front of them, which is basically against the rules (if your argument includes 'but it was legal' basically means it was legal, but not very ethical). They could also create different drafting zones for pros and amateurs. Pros 50m, amateurs 10m, with adjusted time allowances for passing. There is plenty of space for pros to ride 50m apart. And in the races with more than 1 loop they will catch up to slower riders but will pass all of time quick enough.

GPS's typically have an error of several meters, so using their data leaves room for debate if somebody was or wasn't within a drafting zone.

Terrenzo Bozzone: another athlete whose greatness seems to come in bursts of ridiculousness.

Yeah a lot of pros only peak a couple of times a year and so are forced financially to do back to back race weekends. Are there more pros that do 7 full distance races a year like wurf ?

I remember Bozzone was a top new Zealand triathlete in his teens already, huge lungs and long limbs. Natural talent to burn

Guys like that are born in a pool and stand up running then are unstoppable on a bike

I just can't believe wurf learned swimming in his 30s and swam sub 50 minutes. You'd think a expro bikers legs could handle the pounding of running to get to sub 3 pace, let alone start another pro race a week later... Pretty amazing

yes, but you could have a 20m rule and enforce 15m based on gps. then you've got a 5m gps tolerance (worst case 2.5m for each device) and still enforcing a bigger zone than what is currently not really enforced. no excuse if you're supposed to be 20m apart and get measured as <15m for any notable period of time

You're talking about creating an entire new event... That's overcomplicating it. Running is not a modest impact - at marathon paces it's like 2% energy savings. Cycling is between 30-40% savings. I don't see how this solves anything and I'd argue it actually makes the race worse. It would be virtually impossible to have an effective breakaway, and with a marathon ahead guys aren't going to be throwing down tons of surges. Or if they did it would just make the run leg worse. Why is eliminating drafting at the pro level not the obvious choice?

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I'm pretty sure Cam Wurf swam as a kid. Tim Reed and Cam grew up together on a tiny little island off the coast of Australia, Lord Howe Island. In a podcast, Tim talked about Cam and him racinga local triathlon, so Cam having no experience in triathlons is just not accurate. More importantly how many Aussies didn't have some experience swimming, which is a huge advantage as an adult.

My problem with Cam is his close association with Team Sky, Chris Froome, its coaches and he's an ex-pro cyclist. Nothing interesting to talk about with any of that. The level of silence about this elephant in the room with Cam Wurf amongst the triathlon community is interesting to say the least. That said he's an entertaining guy in spite of his asterisk in my mind beside his name.

no, i'm with you on that. i don't accuse him of anything, i'll just say that i'm a skeptic. i think i've become pretty cynical over the years, and when i see stuff in pro sport that looks too good to be true, i figure it is. here's a 35-year-old with the background that you've described, who recovers like a teenager and races 7 competitive ironmans in a year. . . i think it's a bit naive to not at least raise an eyebrow.

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Oh yeah, I do remember him mentioning that kids triathlon where he borrowed a girls bike leaning against a tree to finish the event or something.... fun story

Retiring from pro cycling and having pinarello adapt a bike around you while getting coached by Tim Kerrison is pretty a privileged position for sure! I didnt know Tim was an aussie cyclist. If Wiggins, Froome, Thomas and team Sky, multiple tours, 3 grand tours in a row, back to back tour and Olympic gold, hour record isn't a good CV then nothing is.

I like how Wurf said he would do the training camps with Froome and co. and they were all laughing that he would just do a swim before or a run after thier training sessions... The guy is a phenomenon

I see what you did there. And yet he gets beat, consistently.

So what does that say about the rest of the field?

Why should being beaten in a triathlon by triathletes be a surprise? He started late as a retired cyclist and is keeping up with people from Olympic tri, European Cup, itu and long course pedigree... That's the impressive part

This is funny. FFS the guy was an olympic rower and then a professional cyclist. He is clearly a world class sportsman with a massive engine. Its not surprising to see his rise. Throw shade on him however you will, but you can't dope your way to good swim form. The lad is just a talent.

I never said Cam is a doper, he could be a phenom and is clearly an incredibly talented athlete. I am pretty aure he never road for Sky, but just nknew a lot of them, because he was a World Tour rider. However, sticking our heads in the sand and totally ignoring his questionable associations today, is what led cycling down the path to where it is today, and arguably where triathlon is heading.

Understood. I certainly don't keep my head in the sand. I think triathlon has a massive problem in AG and Pro ranks and testing isn't worth shit. You are right that he never rode for Sky while cycling. He ended up being approached as a training partner and then Kerrison seems to have taken an interest. The rest is history.

My point was merely that he seems to be a great all around sportsman, clearly has a big engine and shenanigans or not, to swim at his level this quickly you have to have good form....there is no shortcut for that.

Wurf didnt race with Team sky but he trained with Froome/SKY/Kerrison in preparation for for last years Giro - in Australia and also in the French mountains according to his own interviews


Tim Kerrison said that the secret to Team Sky success is "taking advantage of the knowledge gap". He claimed that while the other teams invested in doping his team invested in coaching which had the biggest gain because the other teams didnt think of that.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/apr/27/tim-kerrison-bradley-wiggins-team-sky


Apparently that cycling knowledge does cross over to triathlon pretty effectively!

And if you believe that Sky story about that being their big advantage, I have a workout I can sell you called "5 Minute Abs" that'll give you an eight pack in 30 days from being overweight.

Well Tim Kerrison comes from a swim background if I recall correctly?

5 minute abs is so 2000’s..... today is all 4 minute abs

Dan Lorang, Jan Frodeno's coach, is also with Bora Hangrohe, so it's not unprecidented...

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DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!

Add to that he seems to have all the worlds best coaches supporting him including team Sky's coaches and Dennis Cotterell multiple Olympic champion swim coach. No Lionel Sanders approach here... He is no overnight sensation running and swimming. We watched the improvements to his run improve over time especially this year where it seems he is beginning to understand the bike run balance required. Of the guys that trained with him in cycling here in Australia they said it was his ability to handle volume the likes of only maybe a cycling team leader could absorb was was set him apart. Apart from the Wiggins TUE saga and Froome salbutamol case what evidence do we have that Sky dope as well. If they were on any good doping I am sure Salbutamol would be low on their list. Wurf has openly talked about when he was offered a TUE in cycling and quit the race. It's easy to tarnish someone by association...

https://cyclingtips.com/2017/08/cam-wurf-qualifying-kona-training-froome-worldtour-return/

He rode an average of 43.5km/hr. I can't understand how this is even possible.



If you look at his strava run he clearly slowed down in the last 21k. His heart rate was heaps lower than the first half marathon.

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And obv Wurf has some talent for swimming. Some big engine guys train for years, decades even, and don't go sub-50 for the iron swim. In one of these Wurf threads within the past 2 months, I asked if Wurf ever swam as a kid and an Aussie responded he might well have swum a few years as ALL Aussie kids are REQUIRED to learn to swim in grade school and, being a sporty guy, he might well have been on an age group team as a kid.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Makes sense, Terrenzo was racing tri since 14 years old... He won the junior World duathlon champs and was a triathlon contender as a teen ager in new Zealand following in the steps of paul amey and Cam brown

They had won nothing before hiring Geert Leinders, who iirc was hired after Kerrison.

It seems like being an Australian and doing swimming is like being a Canadian and doing ice skating. Every kid pretty well does it, so when it comes to sports that include swimming Australia gets to pick from an entire national pool and when it comes to sports involving skating, Canadians get that deep pool (thus you see the success of our speed skating teams most of whom don't neccessarily grown up speed skating, but take it up when they lose interest in hockey or figure skating).

Interesting logic!

Aussie did get 10 swimming medals, but the closest to a running medal was the 2 medals for walking ....how do you extrapolate that data to triathlon?

Canada had to be wrapped with 29 medals this year... Do they have an equivalent of the Australian institute of sport youth development program? That was quite old but it worked and UK started one years before the London games which was also effective in getting the Queen medals since she would be kind enough to host. They analysed which sports records hadn't moved in years and which sports were potentially softest then found people that met the physical qualifications.... That's how track cycling amongst others became a success there

You have to remember Australia’s number one sport is Afl and league and cricket.

Swimming and running doesn’t rate at all here.

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Unfortunately true...
Olympic sports get coverage once every four years (some exaggeration, but not that much).

From a rowing perspective, there are so many athletes floating around in football / rugby who could be very good indeed but aren't exposed to it, or are and have decided that it's a better use of their time to train twice a week and play once a week in grade or 'amateur' and get paid a few hundred bucks a game.

Every country has their equivalent of AFL and cricket....soccer, basketball, American Football, Hockey, Tennis....whatever sport. There are the big team sports or the big money sport that the good athletes go into and then all these mechanical individual sports that uncoordinated people go into. Australia does not have a monopoly on the talent pool getting sucked up by big money team sports. Every country has that going on. My point was at least all of Australia learns how to swim (like pretty well all of Canada ends up on skates at some point).

You phrased that excellently.