If you're under 40, the whole age group thing is a bit of a sham anyway.

An "Elite" class? between pro and age groups? But what would be the incentive to do that instead of entering in your age group?

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"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

Maybe it would be a bit more prestigious? There is no rule that states you have to get your pro card but way under 9hrs for an IM ''age grouper?'' If you are an athletic individual who puts in the required work and does so in the correct fashion, the age group race is usually close. There was 20 minutes between 2nd and 3rd for the 30-34. The top 4 also went under 9 hrs?!?! cough, pro card, cough, cough

Top AG men routinely beat the top pro women.

Top AG men often beat pros having a bad or mediocre day.

Top AG men almost never hit the money in big races, which is the true sign if you should be a pro or not. That along with your ambition to actually want to be one. Just breaking an hour in the swim or 3 hours on the run, or 4;30 on the bike is ok if the courses are legit(which it appears they were not), so next you go to the comparison phase with wonky short courses. Did any of these guys make the money?

They are AG'ers because they choose to be, later on they may choose different. I always find it funny when people like you complain about a system that is running just as it should. You rise in the AG ranks high enough to sniff the back end of the pros, then make a decision if or when you make the jump. There is always going to be top AG'ers, even when most of the guys you describe move out, someone else just moves in. This is the area known as AAA racing. We always had it, always will. Just in my day no one got butt hurt by people that beat them, and then tried to come up with some justification why they shouldn't even be allowed to race such an event in that category, usually because they would then move up in the ranks. Very petty if you ask me..

Nothing petty nor does my butt actually hurt. Not even close to being in contention with these individuals. These people dont just ''sniff the back end of the pros'' they kick it. Not going to go back and forth but hands down 8hrs 30 min is a bit fast to call yourself an age grouper. Get your pro card and stop taking age group qualifying spots.

As Crowie and Cam Brown (and many more before them) have proven, everything under 44 should be open.

Rob Barel finished 43rd in the Olympic games triathlon at the age of 42.xx. He was born in 1957 and raced the Sydney Olympics for Holland in 2000. No need for age groups below 45. It's just an artificial distinction for really no good reason. You could keep a 23 and under age group (Espoirs category type of thing like they have in cycling) since athletes are not fully developed before that.

IT wasn't an 8;30 first of all, add in all the short minutes for the bike and run first before you spout out times please.

And who do you think it should be deciding when someone goes just sub 9 hours when and if they should turn pro? You? Me? Or perhaps each person should decide their own path in the sport, that would be a good thing, wouldn't it? Or are you one of these guys that wants to make some more rules about who can race which races, and which categories? Who got so hurt here that you feel you have to defend your position, butt hurt or not?

Soooooo new age group 23-44?, all holds barred first 20 people across the line get kona slots. Got it

Already have a thread for this:

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...0a%20biatch#p1566945

Now we are not complaining about people being too slow and therefore not "legit" Ironmen/women, but now we are going to worry about people who are too fast??? This seems a bit far-fetched.

In my mind someone who is a Professional athlete is trying to make a living off the proceeds of her racing. If a wicked fast cashier/attorney/barista shows up and kicks ass on a given day, whose right is it to tell she has to quit her day job?

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Patti in NJ

Im looking at an Edge, clay who went 8:30:24, his partner in crime Guiliano, Ryan went 8:36:35. I have added the seconds to the final time please referr to the update. There is no hard or fast rule that is the point to the discussion but I will gladly give you the power to decide when people should grab that elusive pro card. There are more than one sexuality these days why not make multiple classes. Get with the times man!!!! Does this hit close to home with you? Were you one of these sandbaggers back in your prime? And once again, facilitating a discussion with my opinion. Thank you.

I'm only asking this because I don't know.....

If you go 8:3X:XX racing as a pro.....will that get you into Kona?
Would it have won you any money in TX?

If the answer to both is "no".....it's fairly obvious why they race as an AG'er.

Maybe they don't want to enter the drug testing pool
Maybe they don't want stricter drafting rules

But seriously, it makes no sense not choosing to take your pro card given the amount of money pro triathletes earn.

For those who have opted not to take their pro card and not to be eligible for prize money, why not?

There are more than one sexuality these days why not make multiple classes. //

SO you are fighting for a transgender category, man you have lost me, not sure what you are arguing about anymore. And back in most of my day we all raced together, fields were smaller and they could get away with that. But we pushed hard to get a pro split from the AG'ers once there was some money being offered. Then we fought hard to get the Womens race split off from the male AG'ers. For awhile there was an in-between category of elite, think a couple races may still have it, but it was an experiment that just didn't take, as in most were not really happy with it. So it got changed in most cases and we have what you see today. I think it works pretty well, I can't think of any meaningful changes that would make it better(for the majority, not the podium scratchers that just aren't making it) If you have a good idea, put it forth, don't just complain. People that just complain without any solutions(good ones) are just noisemakers.


And yes I was a sandbagger in my day, I won about 60 pro races and did not upgrade myself to the Zeus division, shame on me...

This thread is an embarrassment, even by Slowtwitch standards, but it's funny that neither of the guys you mentioned even took slots at Texas.

But hey, why would anyone be expected to actually know what they are talking about before posting on this site....

Until you start seeing age groupers going 7:50-8:10 or so, I don't think there is any reason to complain here. Some people are naturally gifted, train hard, and are rewarded with speed. 8:30 is fast for an age grouper but it's slow for a pro time. Look at it this way, the winning pro time was still about 40 minutes faster than the winning age group time. I would be pretty ticked to win the amateur race only to be "forced" for some reason to take a pro card, and suddenly go from winning to getting my ass kicked.

I always smile when I see these threads. There is ALWAYS someone faster, period. Always folks born with the better parents.
Technically, all this pro/elite/AG stuff is just to have these businesses make more money by allowing more to say they "won", etc.
This is why for me I could care less about podium stuff, especially as I am now 60 and way fewer let alone fast folks. I just race against the clock
for me against others in the clock. I just try to not get geezer-ed, or chicked very often. Will not be long that I am just happy to be able to finish.

And I do love out running the younger folks. :) But in single sport, my running is nothing. :(

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

That last sentence is only funny because it came from you!

Clay Emge (Mr 8:30) did race as a pro for a season or two. I think he explained why he went back to the age group ranks in an ST interview. worrh a read to those who are truly concerned...

If it helps, Clay didn't take his kona slot anyway.

It's a tough spot to be in as making the leap to being a pro for some isn't just as easy as "well i qualify, so ill take my card". It takes a completely different level of commitment to truly race as a professional and when you are working a full time job with a family the priority really needs to be family-work-triathlon. I haven't spoken to Clay about it personally but I know that's the rationale for a lot of guys.

I also agree with Dev's idea of just having a 23-4x age group

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Team Every Man Jack

Because they already have spots from last years races.... that wasnt the point of the thread

I agree which was the point of the thread. They are inbetween a pro and an age grouper (closer to the pro side) I understand they wouldnt make jack in regards to money or living as a pro and I dont think they are trying to do that. If you work a solid 40+ hour week job (not just coaching other athletes and being able to train) and didn't swim bike or run in college you are a textbook age grouper... for all else, elite cat?

Really? That's weird. Since Clay is a friend and a teammate of mine, I should let him know he took a slot at some point last year. He is going to be pretty surprised!

And what is your point then? That arguably the two fastest long course AG athletes in the country are faster than a lot of pros? Yeah, that's typically the way it works.

yes, please let him know immediately. He has a race to win in October. Thanks buddy

 
And who do you think it should be deciding when someone goes just sub 9 hours when and if they should turn pro? You? Me? Or perhaps each person should decide their own path in the sport, that would be a good thing, wouldn't it?

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I think it's cycling where you are forced to upgrade categories if you score certain points/places in races. I don't know if that means all the way up to an cat 1, but I'm pretty certain if you keep winning enough and out score other racers, you simply get pushed to next category, 99% sure. Of course that's harder to apply in triathlon as less races per year usually. Of course cycling is slightly different than AG triathlon etc., but there are governing bodies that can dictate what you race to a certain degree.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

So because I ran XC & Track in college (not the greatest by far) and want to continue my lifestyle after graduation, I have to get an elite card?

hmmm.....

Believe me, I am with you on that. I would love to see him do Kona this year but right now it's not in the cards.

But I get your general point, but some guys have to be the fastest AG athletes. We just happened to see two of them show up last weekend at the same race.

If you do that you start running into the problem of grouping people based on how much time they have to train.

1) Single people with no nobs
2) Single people with full time jobs
3) Married no job
4) Married with a job
5) 1-3 kids plus job...
etc

So they break it down simply between pro and amateur.

As it is we already break the amateurs down a little too much by age. I would much prefer to see a single 18-45 age group with the top, say, 20 getting Kona slots. Then a masters category that gets the rest.

Not quite following here on no. 1 - do they need their own group for aero reasons?

Whoops.... Best Typo EVER... I am not even going to fix it... :)

If you exclude the 'juniors" (I excluded M18-24) and pros, take the slots that would have went to M25-29; M30-34; M35-39; M40-44, and you give them away in an "open" division suggested earlier in the thread, here is what I got:

AG Count M25-29 1 M30-34 7 M35-39 11 M40-44 9 Grand Total 28

I think it's cycling where you are forced to upgrade categories if you score certain points/places in races. //

I was unaware that there was any amateur race you could win in cycling where they forced you to take a pro bike racing card. Which race(or races) are they? I'm aware that in AG cycling and running and triathlon there are forced measures that make you move categories, like aging up for example. Pretty much every AG sport does that. I think what you are talking about is moving up in the AG ranks in cycling, like categories? If that is the case, then not really different that moving people out of AG's, just trying to get like individuals racing amongst each other, just that cycling has this extra category system besides it's AG one..

How would you entice someone to want to race in an 'elite' wave? You can't force someone to sign up for an elite wave so that's not really solving the problem you have. Maybe they should allocate all the Kona slots for 40 and under to an elite wave that's open to all.

There is not a single race that I'm aware of. But in cycling it's a time period (12 month peroid). You race well enough over 12 months they auto upgrade you to next level. I'm not saying it should or shouldn't be that way, but you are forced up better competition if you continue to win. You can sandbag it when you know you are close to stay by not placing well at end of your time period, but my point was a federation has in place standards to upgrade your competition if you continue to "sandbag" which is the question you asked "who should decide what category you asked".

ETA: If USAT already gives out power scores, it wouldn't be that difficult to say input a rule that if you scored X score Y times, you upgrade. Of course this is if we actually think it's a problem, but you original question was "who should decide it", and my cycling response is more to show that the sport has it's own markers to force upgrade you. Wasn't saying it's the right or wrong way, but just to show how cycling handles "sandbagging".

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

And Ryan raced pro as a duathlete for a while. Whatever... Not a big deal.

Anyways, it's simple - If you can make qualifications to race as a pro, you will get the chance, and if it works out - it works out. If not, you can quit or go back to racing as an age grouper.

Bottom line is, if you are fast enough, you can choose what division you want to be in. It's not that tough. If you aren't good enough as a "pro," the federations spit you back into the AG ranks anyways.

I think the current system is great. You can qualify if you are good enough, give it what you can, and see where that takes you. If you don't feel like having to be a pro, you shouldn't have to.

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New Training/Racing Log - http://www.earthdaykid.com/blog --- Old Training/Racing Log - http://colinlaughery.blogspot.com

But do they force you to turn pro? That seems to be the topic here, forcing someone from AG to PRO. Unless I'm mistaken and it has changed, you don't ever have to race pro as a bike racer unless you want to, same as triathlon. I remember when I got my pro license to race bikes, it was not easy and I was quite proud at the time since my real job was being a triathlete. And man it was fun as hell, just wish there were more money in it at the time, a time period where triathletes made more than bike racers!!

Every event I've been to Cat 1 rider has to always ride against pros in said race. Unless it's a big national/international designation race (where only professional contracted riders are allowed, etc), cat 1 rider even if amateur is forced to ride in the event that can include pros in their particular race. Which means, they dont get their own podium if they finish 4th, nope, they simply finished 4th even if it was behind 3 "pro" riders.

I also don't know if cat 1 = Pro, or if "pro" only means your riding for a team, pro contract, etc.

ETA: But again cycling in my opinion is more geared toward ability racing same ability, regardless of age, where triathlon is participant focused and thus geared towards age racing same age. So going with an 24-44 age group would be closer to what cycling does and create better racing imo.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

My only issue in all of this, is the camp of people who think/expect pro's to be true "professionals" and race and earn a living off the sport. Or I guess I should say, if that's the barrier, then instead of 1000 world wide pros, we'd have 150 total male and female "pros". Which is fine, if that's the barrier you want to make it. But I just think those people don't understand the financial limitations of this sport. This is a sport where olympic athletes shack up 5 people to a 2 bedroom house, share grocery bills, etc., in order to pursue dreams. Joe Maloy recently retired from the sport, and he is among the fastest Americans regardless of distance. He made how much money? Andy Potts is the poster child of pros making it and doing everything right as a "pro" and in 2016 he made $36k (not including sponsorship, etc).

How many of the top IM pros who are winning and racing well in Kona also "coach"? I'd say good portion of them do. So this whole idea that pros should only be pros if they are making wage, I think is head in the sand with understanding the financial constraints in this particular sport.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

You're probably looking for gender identity here, not sexuality. Who you want to bang doesn't really come into it. Somebody with testes producing a lot of testosterone wanting to be considered a woman does.

The reality is that if you are 40-45 minutes behind the winner you really have no business being a pro either. You are not even in the same race if you are swimming around an hour. It would be a lonely day for them.

This case is just skewed because the winning times were so fast, if the course was honest and the winner was in 8:20 you have a hard time complaining about someone going about 9 hours as an AGer. Really, it is more typical that the gap is closer to an hour at the less competitive races, but sometime you have faster guys if they are Kona competitive.

..

Yup. If Giuliano went pro he'd be last out the water at every race and never in contention. Then stanky might start a thread complaining why some guys go pro who can't compete with the fast pros.

Just for everyone's info. The "standard" for holding elite license is finishing within 8 percent of winner. Or atleast that is USAT's standard to maintain pro status.

8 hour winner would mean 38 mins behind winner is considered legit result.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Is all this hoopla about qualifying slots for Kona?

I've been at this stuff for a long time, and couldn't care less about Kona. That's just me, I suppose.

My opinion? Fast Age Groupers ain't going away. period. might as well get used to it, and enjoy your own triathlon journey, Kona, or not.

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Not everything is as it seems -Mr. Miyagi

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Alex Arman

Strava

I know you won't want to hear it, but while you debate something that does not apply to you, those who may have lost out on those slots are training harder.

Just in case you've never read these words:

Winners focus on winning, losers focus on winners. If you want to be a winner you can not be concerned with what others are doing, your focus needs to be on the end goal and coming out on top. People who focus on the wins that others achieve are so busy worrying about someone else that they are not making an effort in their own lives, and this is a mistake. If you want to be a winner then you need the focus to be on your life and your goals. The most successful people in the world spend little time thinking about what others are doing or what someone else has achieved, they are too busy focusing on what they need to do in order to reach the top of the pack and stand out. Don't waste your energy on others, focus it on reaching your goals instead.

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just your average age grouper . no one special . no scientific knowledge . just having fun.

Excluding the 18-24? Did we not see what Marcantonio went this past weekend in that age group???

Seperate categories for those with kids and those without kids.

Tri and running do need to drop AG for under 45's and go to a CAT system. Will make races a lot safer and easier to control timing wise. In addition, if a mass start, prize money should be open to all so sand bagging doesnt happen

First off, everyone I mention below I personally know and are all very good athletes!!! If you are trolling or serious I do not know but I will say this, you yourself are part of the reason why this problem exists. You see you are already taking jabs at any pro that got beat buy these guys/gal when in reality it is a completely different race and will always be a different race. But as long as people denigrate B or C grade pros, many will just either go back to being age-groupers or stay that way.

Personally, I would love to hear these people come on and discuss. It would actually be interesting piece to write by Dan/Jordan/Herbert, anyone to interview these four, but for four people who crushed it, who all won their age-group (except Ryan), were surprise surprise, all former pros

They include:
Ryan Giuliano (2nd to Clay) (last pro season 2010 or 2011 I think)
Clay Emge (last pro season 2014???)
Tami Ritchie (last pro season 2015???)
Raymond Bothelo (last pro season 2016???0

It is very hard to talk to people about the jump. Some make it, some don't. The sad part is when someone loves triathlon, got into the sport to be fit and healthy and develops some success. The snowball picks up snow and then they turn pro, either train too hard and get injured and flushed out, or get their butt kicked and leave sport. The beauty of these athletes is they love sport. They all were pros. They know what a difference the game is and they were 'hardened' so to speak by being in that environment. This is testament to getting fit and how much fitness you actually retain from being challenged to your max by your peers. They should be applauded for sticking in the sport instead of doing what so many do which is exit as quick as they come.

Frankly as former pros they set the bar in the age-group ranks. They provide a great platform for people to keep challenging themselves without necessarily making the full jump.

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I will say this about Clay as well, he is about the nicest most humble guy you will ever meet. You would never know he is a "fast' guy if you just met him. Super approachable if anyone ever gets chance to meet him go say hi. He is racing Placid too and i don't think he is going to take Kona slot there either. He just races because he loves racing like everyone else.

I had Nathan Buttrick and Juan Valencia racing in my AG at Texas, Nathan is ex pro and Juan i am not sure about, but they are both uber fast. Met both of them and both are super friendly and just nice people. They both took there Kona slots and I welcome having them in my age group. No, i am not as fast as either of them but it gives me something to shot for and i choose to embrace the challenge rather then bitch and moan about it.

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2024: Bevoman, Galveston, Alcatraz, Marble Falls, Santa Cruz

Maybe they dont have to ''make the jump'' to pro.... maybe, as the title suggests, they can be a part of a new class all together. 8:30 for an IM can not be used as a reference point or ''setting the bar'' for even competative AG'ers. I mean, whats next? Pros entering non pro races like IM MOO to steal the overall victory?

Give the athletes no choice if they have met a time threshold, i would love for more open or elite divisions in races, age groups don't make for the best racing.

Who cares. The stuff about Pro's, for most, is just an ego thing.

But, the same for Ego's of so many AGers. If they cannot beat them, then they bad mouth them that somehow they should be an elite or pro or anything other than
racing as an AGer. BS. IMO, they should all just race as AGer's. I love to chase or be chased by fast folks. Bring out the best in me.

They just had the right parents, and so many are just, well, snowflakes. They should win at any cost, rather than having to earn it.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Wouldn't you have more fun if you were in a category surrounded by almost equal athletes and actually racing ?

The most fun i have racing is when i race my brother head to head as we are pretty close in fitness, blowing by 100s of old guys on the bike is more frustrating than fun. This is from a short course racing perspective where sometimes they have the younger age cats go off last which is a disaster IMO on such short courses.

Clay Emge, here to defend myself. Shout out to Greg, Brendan, Gerlach and others for their kind words too!

Sorry it took me so long to respond...my full-time job as an engineer and family duties as a husband and father keep me pretty busy.

First I will address the Kona slot that I let roll-down...my wife is due to have our 2nd child in September, so both Chattanooga worlds and Kona are off the table this year. Something bigger and better came along.

There was a comment about avoiding drug testing and stricter drafting rules....false. I was drug tested immediately after finishing on Saturday (and have been a couple times before, including a random test in which USADA showed up to my house at 6 AM). Referees keep a pretty close eye on AG athletes, esp at big races like Kona and even IMTX.

Skanky Leg had a comment about textbook Age Grouper "if you work a solid 40+ hr a week job (not just coaching other athletes and being able to train) and didn't swim bike or run in college, you are a textbook age grouper...". I work 40+ hrs a week as an engineer, and was not a college athlete (engineering classes were a pretty full load). Textbook 📚.

Yes, I did race as a pro for 1 year (2014). I kept my full time job as an engineer, and never truly aspired to be "professional" in Triathlon. If nothing else, I wanted to be able to look back on life and tell my kids/grandkids, etc that I was a pro triathlete. But August of 2014 found me with a sacral stress fracture and instruction to not run for 6 mos. So instead of re-upping my pro license in 2015, I went back to AG ranks and my wife and I welcomed a little boy into our family.

Since then, I have indeed thought about going back to pro racing. But I don't want to put that pressure on myself, and would rather enjoy this sport as a hobby while continuing to push myself and see what I can achieve. As others have mentioned, my time would have put me out of the money anyway, so there are really no financial incentives.

Fair enough, from now on handicap rules apply and you have to race w/ Guiliano on your back and vise versa. P.S. officially changing my username to ''skanky leg''

Fwiw, I raced in a non-pro race this weekend in Clermont. It was Saturday night. Then I got up and did a non-pro half-marathon as well this next morning.

The reality is we have pro races, >$5000 by USAT, in the US, you need a pro card. If it is not a pro race then you are more the welcome to race, you just can't do a pro race and then enter the age-group field. You have to race as a pro. The reality is I am not a human punching bag all the time. Please don't use a word like 'steal'. I woke up out of bed, walked two blocks and did Ironman Wisconsin. I didn't take someones Kona spot. I didn't train for it, I didn't even know if I could get further than 1 hour into the bike. I wasn't going to travel half way across the world to DNF a race and find out. Sometimes racing in your backyard is best. I do it often. In fact if you look at my bio, take a look at what I say my favorite workout is.

The reality is the local paper wrote it up like I "bandit" the race and that wasn't cool. Although I don't care, you have people in the community that go up to my mom and think their son "bandited" the race like someone does the local 5k. Although I have thick skin, that doesn't mean she does, and that isn't cool. The reality is Ironman got paid for the entry just like anyone else. I wasn't given any special treatment because I was a pro that no other age-grouper would be entitled to. I didn't have my own porta potty, I didn't get an appearance fee from Ironman. Did I shake the foundation a little bit, sure. Did Ironman learn something from the experience, well it has be communicated at least to me that the process has officially changed. I think that is a good thing. The same mistakes won't be made again and I am all for improvement for everything in life.

But back to the topic. I didn't run D1 or D2 or even D3. I learned to swim at 26. I just try to find a better version of myself every day of my life. I look at my competition as people who challenge me to get out of bed and work harder regardless of their background. Should Ironman move to a time-based system or some other system. I don't know but right now Kona is a pretty special thing. There is limited space. I admire anyone that wants to fight to change the system for the better. The reality is you have arguably two of the best age-groupers in the sport at Texas. Ryan finished 4th at the World Champs and has his bowl. Clay is one of the best as well winning two Ironmans last year. Is that sandbaggin? Or is that just racing??? I don't know.

Should we have separate pro distinction for anyone that is a pro but didn't race ITU, how about if they didn't learn to swim until 25+. How about if you are pro and you work part-time, or full-time etc. The answer to me is no. It is a level playing field but the bar is there, keep it simple. The sport continues to get faster and faster and that is a reality. The reality is also the course was short. The course was short on the bike, the run, and it was an ideal day. Matt Hanson went 17 minutes faster than 2015 the year he won, Ronnie went 25 minutes faster finishing 2nd instead of 3rd in 2015. The course was smoking fast, no doubt about it. Moving it earlier helped too but the reality is if we scale Ronnie and Matt's performance, Clay going 9:00 is what the bar was at. That is very typical fast age-group time. If you got a smokin fast time on Sunday cherish it because unlike the 2012 Ironman St George, that time is going to look good on the resume.

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Nope. I have fun racing against the clock. That is the only thing I can control. After that yep, I try to pass anyone in front of me, and not be passed.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Late to the thread, may have been posted. This isn't a fast Amateurs issue. At what point do the "slow" pros bite the bullet and get out?

I thought that was you when I saw the results. I would've ran the tri if I knew you were racing it. Would've lost to you, but it would've been fun.

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just your average age grouper . no one special . no scientific knowledge . just having fun.

It was so much fun. I have to say, I was totally out of my element sitting around all day. It was weird but cool to do a triathlon at night. I absolutely left it all out there on the bike. Totally smashed myself to bits. And that venue is so nice to.

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My understanding is if a "slow" pro doesn't meet minimum USAT standards, their license expires after three years.

On that course, an 8:30 was not amazing, considering he was 40min behind the winner. Many times, top AG racers are well under an hour to the winning time. Clay is one of most hard working athletes, father and working man out there, so I can't find any fault in him staying in the AG world. He loves the sport, but has bigger things (wife and kid), IMO, that he wants to be 'Pro' at. He is definitely a Pro dad.

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"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go." T.S. Elliot | Cycle2Tri.com
Sponsors: SciCon | | Every Man Jack

I think it's harder *currently* to get your elite card versus keeping it unless you race a limited stacked pro schedule. Because 8% isn't really *that hard*, it's only hard if you get a few flats and suddenly your down to a few races to make the standard. 1:45 Olympic at 8% is 1:53:30. If you have a few bad races and suddenly start putting pressure, get a niggle and next thing you know you miss 3 months of races, that's why you miss the cutoff usually.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I think it is strange that triathlon has a "pro" class.
I am not used to that from any other sports.

If you are fast you start first.
Submit you times.

Look how any other endurance sport.

I think it is strange that triathlon has a "pro" class.
I am not used to that from any other sports. //

What if you compare it to the pro sports that don't have measured courses, and are highly variable because of terrain and weather conditions. See what you come up with..

I think if they race and keep renewing, it doesn't matter how slow or mediocre their results are. If they pay the yearly fee, they're "Elite".

I would have to check other countries "elite" qualification, but I think the US is one of the few countries that actually has an actual checklist/standard to becoming a "pro". In most other countries you simply apply to the federation and they say ya/na on letting you race for them, which is mainly used for ITU racing. Most base it off certain results, but it can simply be from training times, etc.(federations know what it takes to swim X times so that's likely part of standard too, but US simply has more of a specific race result standard). Funny thing about that, in the 2012 lead up to London, one of the top Americans was taken out and out with a broken wrist, by an central american "elite" who was being lapped out and was in the race simply because he applied for the federation, and they gave it to him. He really had no business being in that race, and it also really was no business for that top wts racer to be in that race either, but some federation pressure to get some points was applied to the situation.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Partially incorrect. Yes you have to renew yearly, but you also in 3 year window have to "prove" your worth by providing a race result within 8% of winning time. So while that's somewhat "soft" measure, its atleast a measure and it's also not like you can simply get your card and then coast for rest of tri career. 8% is enough in my opinion to force you to "train" while elite, and not just play the "I'm a pro" for rest of career and have shit results. Shit results will result in you losing chance to renew once your initially elite trial period ends (which is 3 years).

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I am not sure what you mean with pro sports.
In most sports you will make money if you are good enough. That is the way it is in track, football/soccer, team handball, biathlon, swimming.

Having a special class for someone that has paid a fee to be called pro is just strange.

Yes qualifying is an issue with today's system just like you said.

That puts the last KQ slot sub 9:21 I believe. So nope, doesn't work for me. Must be a bad system. :)

I see both sides of the argument and as noted above not happening for me in any format but I like the concept of racing the CAT-like system more than an AG. More people around me at similar ability towards the end - regardless of age - I think is more fun.

And the %/# of entrants from the winner solves the non-standard and varying weather concerns noted elsewhere, doesn't it?

There are some valid points in a bit of a confused thread. We have an AG system it's worked fine for years, some people don't want to go pro and that is fine. Don't go to the same races as them if you want to KQ.

More important if we did grant dev Paul his wish of no AG for under 40's would he have ever KQ

No matter what, it is not gonna chase.
Its a fantastic selling point that you can compete in your age group, qualify in your AG, try and finish top 10 in your AG etc.

The whole elite/pro thing: I do not see the problem, noone should be forced to turn pro.

I can't for the life of me figure out what your problem is.
Some people, due to genetics, backgound and training are very fast. Some of those have decided to try and make a living off the sport. These are pros. Typically pros will be the fastest in any given race for obvious reasons. They get their own category.
One person is the winning male and one the winning female. The winner could be either pro or amateur but will obviously be pro in almost all cases. Everyone else is sub divided by age for the same reason it's done in any sport, so that, in theory you're competing against others in your approximate demographic. i.e. If you're 50, it's not realistic to compare yourself directly to 25 year olds.
Since there's age categories and finishing places are recognised by age category, it facilitates a qualification system for Kona to produce a field that represents all demographics with, theoretically, the best athletes in each age group, plus the pros.

Why would you tell the fastest age groupers that they have to pretend they're pros or go in a separate category?
And if this made sense (it doesn't) where would you put your cut-off?

Pros are identified separately because they're pros. This is what they do.
They don't have a right to be the fastest, they just typically are.

Amateurs don't have a right to be helped fool themselves into thinking they're great. Nor do they have a right to have more and more sub-divisions made in the field until everyone gets a medal......

If you can't beat the best in your age group, that's okay. Learn to deal with that disappointment. Don't pretend someone's cheating you.

I'll never be fast. My genetics aren't bad but my background and age are against me, plus I'm maybe just not committed enough. That's okay. I'm not fooling myself. I still expect and intend to get faster for another few years but that's unlikely to get me much beyond mid pack. I'll keep it up as long as I'm enjoying it and getting something out of it.
Some of the guys who are fast but not quite fast enough to get on the podium or get to Kona have a pathetic lack of perspective. It's all ego and self deceit. You're being robbed by dopers, or celebrities, or the lottery, or rolling starts. Now, apparently we have people who feel they are being robbed just because they aren't fast enough. If other guys are faster than you, you don't win. That's how racing works. You don't get to say they're magically in a different category and you still win. Get a grip.

That was the most long winded bs response to post i've seen in a while. How long did it take you to peck away at those keys?

I was bored.
So keep me amused, where's the BS?

Maybe it's simply a matter of finances. The agegrouper has got it too good to go pro. He gets free gear just like the pro's he's beating. Based on the demographics of Ironman he probably makes more money than the pro and his pathway to Kona is really straightforward. Where's the incentive?

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Dave Jewell
Free Run Speed

In the end you shouldn't have to defend yourself. If you're a speedy AGer, you're a speedy AGer. Let the haters hate and let the winners continue to win and work.

Ok, let me get this right...You sign up on this forum 10 days ago, dis a legend in the sport of triathlon as being a poser (mark Montgomery), and complain that the fast people are too fast and should be moved to 'another class' so that they are essentially racing a different race than everyone else.
You know what, I think that we should suggest that Dan do the same thing with this forum...Have people start out in a beginner forum where there is just a whole bunch of ignorance mixed in with a healthy serving of stupid; then as your posts gain some real merit, you move up to a higher posting group.
I am assuming that you are trolling here, and not really this naive. Please stop being annoying and try to contribute something useful. If not, your complaint seems pretty lame 'we should have more categories of winners so more people can feel like they are winners' because the flip side of that is the cheapening of any win. Sure you can say that you were the winner of the married/60hour desk job worker with 4 kids and a 50 year old house that needs new roof and insulation and do all your own car work category...but that really seems like desperately digging for recognition where you did not earn it. WTF are you doing triathlon if the racing part does not make you happy???? Find something else to do, as life is too short to play a game that takes as much time as triathlon if it does not make you happy. If you are serious, then educate yourself a little more about the sport and the people that are on this forum. Many of them have been in the sport from the beginning. They can even remember when we were just a news group on rec.sports.triathlon and before that we just met to BS at the Budlight beer truck after the race under the giant inflatable Tinley.

Stephen J

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I believe my local reality has been violated.
____________________________________________
Happiness = Results / (Expectations)^2

You did a much better job of explaining it. Thanks.

What pressure? Wouldn't that just be self-inflicted? Sounds like pro is a way less-pressure way to race Ironmans. You get to start at the front, less crowding, much cheaper registration for races, get into any race you want, better bike rack positioning... all kinds of perks. Hell, I remember being told I couldn't use the porta-cans in the IM Texas transition area before the race because they were for "pros only."

I think it's more of a case of wanting to be a great age grouper instead of an average pro. Which is fine - that's just being a human - we like to compare ourselves to those immediately around us. But I don't see any extra pressure of being a pro except pushing yourself too hard to be a great one instead of just an average one.

I'm not trying to pick a fight over it. Just an observation. What am I missing here?

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Zen and the Art of Triathlon. Strava Workout Log
Interviews with Chris McCormack, Helle Frederikson, Angela Naeth, and many more.
http://www.zentriathlon.com

I tend to agree with the OP.

2016 IMLP in the M50-54 there were 24 pro-caliber guys racing that kept me from KQ...kinda sucked

How about, "If you beat 2/3rds of the pro field, congrats, you're now a pro too for the next 2 years." No debate, just what happens.

And we keep calling it pro, but isn't it actually "elite"? When said like that, the below sounds totally reasonable:

"If you beat 2/3rds of the elite field, congrats, you're now an elite too for the next 2 years."

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Zen and the Art of Triathlon. Strava Workout Log
Interviews with Chris McCormack, Helle Frederikson, Angela Naeth, and many more.
http://www.zentriathlon.com

I agree - It seems there's a stigma of fear with being called a "shitty pro." I've seen it online and I think its rude and like some kind of weird bullying. I've seen other pros tweeting that pros that can't keep up with the A or B pack are ruining the race and shouldn't be pros. To that, I say "F. U." If you qualify as a pro, you're a pro. You didn't get there by accident. Everybody has good and bad days and we've all seen the best fall off the back and look like crap compared to those that are "on" that day.

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Zen and the Art of Triathlon. Strava Workout Log
Interviews with Chris McCormack, Helle Frederikson, Angela Naeth, and many more.
http://www.zentriathlon.com

It's a sad day when winners can't even celebrate a win without the need to defend themselves. Bravo Clay. Everyone who knows you knows how hard you work in your athletic, professional and home life to make these wins happen.

It used to be pretty common to have an elite wave in a multi-wave event. The incentive was they went off first, raced against the best and had a chance to break the tape. They didn't care if it took them out of the running for "age-group" awards because they didn't really care that much about those.

Not sure what happened to those elite waves. Maybe the whole WC qualifying issues for IM and USAT caused people to be less interested.

I kinda agree with this school of thought.

To hash it out a bit.

Triathlon World Rankings for all entrants.
Best 2 x IM races during any one year count towards your IM annual Points Ranking.
Top 50 or 75 (maybe 100 even) or whatever it is by cut off Aug 31st go to World Champs as Pro's and are Pro's for following year.
Outside of that and your an Amateur until you can rank in top 50/75 the following year.
Or heck division it to sound better - Division 1 = Top 50/75, Division 2 = Next 50/75, Division 3 - all others.
No difference in divisions other than middle tier pro's get to still call themselves pro's instead of labelled amateur. And Division 1 the only pro or main card so to speak.

Not sure the World Champs should count as 1.5 times or whatever the points tally towards your ranking though as would be skewed heavily to those that raced if that race worth more points. Perhaps for the Top 10 or Top 20 only as in fairness they deserve it.

So what does this solve?

Pro Category:
- ranks the top 50/75/100 best performers over 2 or so races so is fair.
- ensures no middle tier/lower tier classifying themselves as Pro to save entrance fee's etc.
- Keeps the Pro division much more elite and perhaps more marketable.

Possible problem of if only ranking 2 races, may end with a lot on tied points. Would need to reduce ranking events if this were the case which is kinda the road they are going down in some cases anyway.

Amateur Category:
- something to aim for - 2 x good races in top 50 and you go to World Champs as Pro (and shouldn't have to pay an entry fee!).
- Fairness that if some ex pro's are in your category they may be ranked as pro soon and thus keep divisions fairer possibly.
- Amateurs still qualify for Kona in normal AG slots etc and pay for the privilege.
- Top performers can earn prize money in any race if they rank in the top 8 or 10 or whatever the payouts are. I've always seen it as unfair that if a top amateur beats Pro's they don't get the prize money just because they aren't registered as such. Prize funds should be for the top performers regardless of category imo.


IM has kinda gone the other way though with the All World Athlete rankings and trying to glorify up the age group rankings. Which is fair enough to an extent, but to be honest more a case of oh you're an AWA Gold/Silver/Bronze - so you did like 3 or 5 IM branded races last year and that's what got you the points ranking...
Not true for all of course, as the top AG'ers are still at the top and racing 3 or more races but for the others it's a case of did x amount of races not necessarily performed in top x % of those races as ranking suggests.

Anyway, tangent steer back, IM would have a clear and fair Pro ranking system without question. Points allocated from 1st place and 2 or 3 races count to your ranking for IM.
Similar process for 70.3.

Is that supposed to be in pink? Or were there really 24 guys in the M50-54 field that had a chance to bring home money if they raced pro that day?

new to this forum, NOT new to the sport. I guess not really having time to sit behind a keyboard and go back and forth really discredits me in the sport of triathlon. It was not trolling, it was not dissing a legend (dont know how mark montgomery was even brought into this convo) purely making a statement, a statement in which I see a pretty even split between opinions. Sorry if you butt is hurt. Carry on

Is that supposed to be in pink? Or were there really 24 guys in the M50-54 field that had a chance to bring home money if they raced pro that day?
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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

heck of an answer clay and congrats on baby 2!!!!

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Follow me on Twitter @CK21TRHC
I use what I love: ISM, Blue70, Trek, FLO

Okay you got me, but based on the OP, I wasn't sure where the line was these days.

Monty IS Mark Montgomery.

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I believe my local reality has been violated.
____________________________________________
Happiness = Results / (Expectations)^2

The pressure to succeed and make a living. I'm only saying this coming from a collegiate track background and I was the most anxious person ever and felt the pressure then. Obviously I wasn't competing for money but it was mentally draining. I took 5 years off after college and finally realized I needed to compete again last year. This time it was different. Yeah I feel nervous at the start of races but not an unhealthy anxious feeling. I have really enjoyed the process this time around too. I wish I had this mentally in college but that is long gone. I'm not a pro but I can only imagine if I was competing to put food on the table what it would do mentally.

Great podcast btw- I really enjoyed "the real starky" episode!

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USAT Level II- Ironman U Certified Coach

The're still there in OLY and Sprint distance events, at least here in the Mid-Atlantic. Most larger events, with a specific pro wave (almost non-existent now) or without a pro wave still have an "Elite" wave that starts the race.

My only comeback to that is if you have a FT job while being a pro you aren't worrying about "providing" for yourself. And I know many that are in that scenario. Only if tri is your only job is that a worry but a 1st year pro? Nah that's more worried about going from podium to pro pack fodder and the resulting ding to your ego as a result of the change in finish position.

ETA: and if your a new pro doing this as your only career it's foolish to either make that decision based on where you currently sit at and only give yourself 1 year. That really is more of a decision of simply saying you were a pro. Which is cool, if that's what you want to do. Good on you, but a pro in that situation would have a terrible outlook/goals if they truly were worried about providing for themselves.

Which is my point being a "pro" in triathlon really truly applies to how many? 200? The rest of the pros are simply people who race in the group that also have either another job or financial support from somewhere. That's why I hate when people bag on pros "oh they suck they get beat by an AGer".

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Yeah I would imagine this is the case for many. If I reach that level this year, I would certainly consider trying to find a job that fit in with the lifestyle and go after it. But again, it would be a lot to think about.

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USAT Level II- Ironman U Certified Coach

Very true. (and thanks!) But what we are talking about here is people that aren't making a living off of triathlon. In the case of this guy chatting with us now, he's an engineer with a full time job. He's got zero pressure to be a great pro and win prize money. Tri prize money is probably a rounding error in his annual salary. It seems it's just perceived social pressure for guys like him to go super hard and worry about being mega-awesome. And that becomes exhausting.

Knowing what I know now, and not really giving a shit about that pressure, I believe I would race pro if I was good enough to qualify as one so I got all the extra perks. But I'm older and don't care what other people think anymore. That's a perk in itself (you older guys know what I'm talking about and how awesome it is.) But I also am not so deluded to think that I know for sure what I'd do until I was in that situation. Social pressure sure feels real when it's happening to you.

I think if we surveyed people, 90% would say they would race pro if they could. But if you actually made it happen, only 50% would because the other half would have list of reasons why they chose not to. Probably the biggest would be not to embarrass themselves compared to other pros.

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Zen and the Art of Triathlon. Strava Workout Log
Interviews with Chris McCormack, Helle Frederikson, Angela Naeth, and many more.
http://www.zentriathlon.com

I think PhillyTri still does this (and probably other Escape races?). You only have to prove that you have done an Oly in <2:15 in the past (well, for men at least). Not a SUPER fast time but fast enough to get the best people to the front. It's voluntary and takes you out of the AG awards, but allows you to race off the front before the main pack crowds the course. I figure if you are able to put down 2:15 or better than earning yet another AG podium award isn't as enticing as being able to race for the overall amateur win, or just have a clear course to race on. And if it is enticing, well that's fine too and you can remain in the AG.

I think i figured it out.... AWA points are based on the fastest time in your AG. OP wants that gold kit (that anyone can buy) without having to slog through 3 WTC races.

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808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo

But again, it would be a lot to think about.

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Which is why USAT gives you 3 years to "prove" your worth. Hell it took GJ nearlly 3 year process to decide if she even really wanted to do itu racing. She made London games and was still part timing as accountant. She really exploded when she finally went "all in" after summer of 2012z. Which for her meant quitting her job, moving into a full time training camp and getting daily coaching.

So I think you just have to figure out your niche. If you want to go all in, great go all in but you need time to see if it works before quitting pro ranks.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

To suggest that someone might go on to the next level just because they can produce an elite level performance as defined by the governing body of our sport simply shows that you are oblivious to the challenges these athletes would face. I used to think it was about ability level and one should "move up" naturally but have educated myself and it turns out that there isn't a framework to support that.

At the AG level there are sponsorships, podiums, wildly enthusiastic & often free coach support, free bicycles/wetsuits/even paychecks from private sponsors. If an AG podium staple leaves the top AG ranks and goes to the back of the elite race they risk losing all of that. Further, it is not the "trend" right now so there is plenty of competition right where these athletes you speak of compete...in the age group.

An athlete accepting their elite card would surely open themselves up to backlash. There is a stigma about this unless they can stay with the lead pack and win money. They risk a loss of their sponsors that they worked hard to obtain. The athletes would experience some ridicule from the tri public as their results are highlighted and they are beaten by the very age groupers they used to race. They are unlikely to get the support of coaches, sponsors, race production companies etc. They would have to travel to find races. They would have to chase Kona on the tight points system and likely with out the sponsorship and support they had as an AG athlete. They have feelings, families, sponsors, coaches and careers that must all be considered right along with those elite level results you mention. Just because someone has the lifestyle and/or talent to beat pros doesn’t mean they have what it takes to race in that field.

It is not seen as an "elite" card by most. It is seen as a "pro card" and there is a sentiment from the upper echelons that if you can't win and make money you shouldn't "go pro" or race pro. These athletes you speak of might BE elite performers but many don't "feel" elite enough and many are even told they aren’t good enough to go pro by the leaders in sport that they trust.

The only reason it makes sense to take that elite card would be if one is massively intrinsically motivated with extremely thick skin, is comfortable with being alone, is very confident and wants to race at the highest level solely to find their true capability. That is quite a tall order and is asking way too much of "most" humans. Ability level categories would be neat but that is unlikely to happen for now. An elite card isn't "seen" as an ability level category and especially not on this forum. Based on what I have learned through discussions such as this, anyone who is lacking a certain strength of character and a unique & special motivational drive would be eaten alive and miserable as a pro. There is not a strong system in place for a developmental pro that I know about. Therefore, some true heroes in top levels of triathlon in my opinion are in fact the rookie pros. Cheers to those who are brave enough, bold enough and also fast enough to make that choice.

There is not a strong system in place for a developmental pro that I know about.

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A league like MLT that supports 32 pros in US should be applauded. I hope they can survive and make some $ to really grow that series. I am taking a group of athletes down to charlotte to watch the race in mid May, should be fun to watch them race.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Or to get into sold-out races at the last minute, get a better bike rack spot, get a cleaner, mass swim start, and to get to use those stupid "pro only" crappers in the transition area. Only half-kidding. I really needed to take a whiz and they literally had staffers protecting their plastic pee-castles from us lower echelon scum. Like our pee isn't good enough!? Outrage! (shakes fist)

I love being alone on the race course. The only thing I don't like about races is the crowding that leads to crashing and drafting. Put me in a no-man's land? How fast can you sign me up?

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Zen and the Art of Triathlon. Strava Workout Log
Interviews with Chris McCormack, Helle Frederikson, Angela Naeth, and many more.
http://www.zentriathlon.com

There's still a few around in short course racing in Australia, but they seem to be getting less common. I guess one bonus in short course too is that no one is trying to qualify for Kona, having a fun race is the main point.

Oh, good point! That is awesome and sounds like a good time too! Have fun. :-)

Totally forgot about those special perks, LOL!

To me, there is no correlation between pro and speed.

Pro's race for money (and sponsorship). Slow pro's won't make much prize money, but may make local sponsorhip money that's enough to subsidize their income. Pro usually means you're full time, with no "real job".

If you've got a great job with good money, can afford all the good gear and coaches etc, you can end up going pretty fast. While I don't make a ton of money, my contract prohibits me from having any other job, regardless of whether it's work related or not. Even if I was really good, I'd have to quit my job to turn pro and that would be a big hit financially.

Some pro's are doing it so they can live the dream and tell their kids they raced pro back in the day. I have a buddy that was a pretty good triathlete. He has a handicapped brother. He quit his job, turned pro and raced for one season. He became pro, because his brother wanted him to see how good he could be if he committed to the sport 100%. There are all sorts of reasons for being pro or not.

Hell, back in the day I was a pro skier. I turned pro to meet girls! I was a funny looking skinny kid, but once I turned pro at 16, chicks at high school took notice ; -). I made almost no money but was living the dream. Some winnings, a few bucks from the local ski shop and sponsorship for equipment and I was still living at home, so it worked a treat. After a few seasons I switched to teaching and coaching and made way more money and met even more women. It was awesome. My wife (35 years so far) was one of my ski students, so turning pro was one of the best decisions of my life. :-)

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TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

the incentive is you have some f*cking self respect

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

there are like 5 professional triathletes in the Ironman peloton world wide in that case

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Someone else mentioned it above but there is a lack of support for athletes trying to make it. For a sport this expensive, it's hard to get everything you need, travel to a race on little money.

Also, some of these AG elite teams like Every Man Jack, seem to be supported better than some pros. At least that look damn sharp in uniformed gear and there is a TEAM behind them, a support system if you will.

But then again I don't know what sponsorships look like for someone who just takes an elite card.

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USAT Level II- Ironman U Certified Coach

You do know what a correlation is, right? ;^)

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I believe my local reality has been violated.
____________________________________________
Happiness = Results / (Expectations)^2

To me I'd like to see it a little more like cycling classifications. Less emphasis on age groups and a little more on classification. Condense to above and below 40, cat 1-4 (or whatever numbers who cares on specifics for a blog post I'm open to compromise I don't work for Congress). I think most of us have been in a race where we killed it, ran a PR, and somehow came in last. Then two weeks later, ran worse, and somehow took 2nd in our age group. Or been in a race where only 2 of us were in the AG, then a month later had 14 in our AG. This would even it out a little more, still give people a couple pieces of the unimportant wall candy we all love to complain about so much. Plus we wouldn't have to stand around for hours after a race in the rain waiting for race management to post the damn results so we can collect our medal or just go home.

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I still lapped everyone on the couch!

At the AG level there are sponsorships, podiums, wildly enthusiastic & often free coach support, free bicycles/wetsuits/even paychecks from private sponsors. If an AG podium staple leaves the top AG ranks and goes to the back of the elite race they risk losing all of that.

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I'd like to see if this is a real thing. Do you have examples of this, because I'd argue A) the actual "sponsorship" being provided to AG'ers (there is a huge difference between sponsored athlete and getting product discount) B) i've not seen it happen with people turning pro.

eta: I truly think it comes down to attitude more than anything. Being able to handle the humility of getting your ass handed to you *to start*. Some can do it, some want nothing to do with it. Which there is no right answer, and I'm talking more about athletes who can consistently "qualify" as a pro...so someone who would consistently finish mid pro pack at a race and simply sits on the AG label.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

tridork wrote:
To me, there is no correlation between pro and speed.
You do know what a correlation is, right? ;^)




But one could look at the relationship ('correlation') between speed and pro status using logistic regression. Speed is the continuous predictor variable, pro/no-pro is the binary response variable. :^)

Maybe old news but ask and you shall receive:




Received an email about this for Staffordshire 70.3 this morning. Now we can all debate if sub 5:30 is really 'Age Group Elite' and when WTC will start to charge extra for it.

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Taylor Rogers

2024: IM Hamburg

 
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I'd like to see if this is a real thing. Do you have examples of this, because I'd argue A) the actual "sponsorship" being provided to AG'ers (there is a huge difference between sponsored athlete and getting product discount) B) i've not seen it happen with people turning pro.

eta: I truly think it comes down to attitude more than anything. Being able to handle the humility of getting your ass handed to you *to start*. Some can do it, some want nothing to do with it. Which there is no right answer, and I'm talking more about athletes who can consistently "qualify" as a pro...so someone who would consistently finish mid pro pack at a race and simply sits on the AG label.[/quote]
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Yes, I have plenty of specific examples of all of the above but seeing as they aren't my deals it's not my place to point out the companies or athletes. Risking loss of sponsorship when they aren't going to Kona and winning AG as well as "not being good enough" has been cited to me a number of times as reasons not to take the elite card. Regarding the cash, I've only personally talked to one who claimed to have this. I do believe the athlete.
Totally aware that some folks will received a coupon & a tshirt and think they are sponsored. That's not what I meant.
I suspect their sponsors might still support them without the podiums but am not entirely sure.

I have agreed with your position but I now try harder to be compassionate towards those who don't have the same mindset or thick skin. I have upset some of my friends for my lack of understanding in the past so I do try to see where their struggle is.

Personally, if I were fast enough to earn the elite card & was beating the AG field repeatedly by leaps and bounds I know that I would feel very disappointed in myself for lacking the conviction to move up. That's just how I am wired in sport and in life. I'm not fast enough to have the option though so I can't prove it. I still try to have empathy etc for those who do not think like I do. Everyone has their reasons and there's no rule against it. Our sports culture sure doesn't support a move up from what I've been told.

Ok, so are you referring to a logistic regression (as in log values) or logistic regression (as in logical)? If the former, then I would argue that speed should be plotted on a linear scale, rather than log scale (although I could see one making the argument that it should be log since drag/resistance increases with the square of the velocity). As for the latter, since there is nothing logical about taking on a pro status, I would have to discount it entirely...but I regress...just about every time I try to up my training.
Now, given speed as the predictor value, and a binary response, then we are dealing with a threshold value based on averages of control values (which may be delineated by a large enough sample size to determine significance). Since we are talking about a recreational activity, and I have determined that I have no significance in any race I enter; I would propose that all participants should exist in a state of superposition between pro and non-pro states, and that discussions like this are interrogating/disrupting the sine wave and collapsing it into a big gooey mess of disharmony.
I think that we can fix it by joining hands and singing kumbaya.

Stephen J

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I believe my local reality has been violated.
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Happiness = Results / (Expectations)^2

"mutual relation of two or more things, parts, etc.:"

As outlined in this very thread, there are plenty of slow (relatively) pro's and plenty of fast amateurs.

Having a pro licence doesn't make you fast, and going fast doesn't make you pro. Many pro's ARE fast, but so are many amateurs. There is no line in the sand with regard to speed that says faster than X, and you're pro, or if you can't beat Y time, you lose your pro licence

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TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

But doesnt being a pro correlate with being fast? I believe that the two are correlated...but I was really just being a wiseass. Ill try to cut that out.

Stephen J

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I believe my local reality has been violated.
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Happiness = Results / (Expectations)^2

I admit there is a trend that pros are generally at the pointy end of the race and generally faster than non-pros, but my point was that sending in a form for a pro licence doesn't make you fast.

I'm MOP. About 25 years ago, I noticed that to race for a year in Canada was (please forgive me, I forget the exact $numbers) about $100, then entry fees. To race pro was just $40 and there was a break on entry fees too. A buddy and I were both poor and thought long and hard about turning pro. We even noticed that in a few races, there weren't enough pros to fill out the prize money ranks! Even with poor performances, we could pick up a few $ just by finishing. We ended up not doing it, and just decided to race less often, but we did look into it and consider it pretty thoroughly.

Then about 10 years ago, I was looking at racing IMC, but the entry requirements were nuts. 1) if you raced this year, you could enter next years race, on the day after this years race. 2) You had to enter IN PERSON at the race venue, IF there were any places left over for next year. Now that I'm in New Zealand, that would have been about a $2k flight, plus accommodation etc, for a risky chance to enter next years race. Then I noticed that pro's could enter any time, no worries. I actually hit up a couple of buddies at TriNZ to see if they'd let me have a pro licence. One laughed his ass off (he'd seen me in a speedo) but said yeah, what the hell. The other laughed as well, but said no, as they had their reputation to think about. I ended up not turning pro that time either (wife said no to a trip back to Canada, just for a race, but that's beside the point)

Having a pro licence does not make you fast. Training, equipment, genetics, nutrition etc makes you fast, not a piece of paper.

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TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

Seriously.....127 responses to a question or concern that should not even exist. People are faster than you that are in your category and you want them out of your category so you can be higher in the category? Who are you people?

That is by no means what the discussion was about but thank you for your useless input.

That is exactly what the discussion was about. Care to expand on why it is sandbagging when you race fast and win your category?

I got some crap medals I won in some crappy local events....create a category where you will be the winner and I will send one to you to you....

You're not convincing anyone!

However, your comebacks are scathing, so be proud of those ;)

Let's be honest, you never won a damn thing in your life. Participation trophy?

I have not read this entire thread...but will respond as if the main question is, why not go (or stay) pro?

My last year racing that way I had 2 of my best ironman races to date and neither 1. earned a single dollar racing or 2. placed within 8% of the pro winner. So, racing pro was not only not an option for me any more at that point, but I was a bit emotionally beat. So I then took some time away from triathlon. Decided to race a marathon. In the course of training for the marathon missed triathlon, blah blah. So, signed up for another triathlon!

I would only go pro if I thought I could earn money (not a living, but at least place 'in the money') at the majority of races entered. To me, this would justify training and racing as a pro and feeling like I belonged there....and there do seem to be haters no matter which route someone chooses, so I'm just doing what makes the most sense to me. My Texas time would not have been a podium or in the money finish. So, for now I enjoy training and racing as a hobby (maybe excessively). But also don't feel like missing a workout to do something else, eating an extra donut on occasion, or anything else like that is as big of a deal because it is a hobby I want to do well at, not something I am doing as a professional and need to be ALL in for.

So, choosing family, friends, and career over a hobby doesn't warrant self respect? Maybe Clay should put 12 lines of sponsor pimps and wannabe, has-been credentials on his ST sig to feel better about himself. Sorry that true self respect isn't a thing for you.

Thanks for the great post. Inspiring.

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https://www.strava.com/...tes/zachary_mckinney

I would prefer if it was a little more like bike racing where each category is broken down by skill level. You get points for placings and are given the choice of upgrading once you reach a threshold, but are forced to upgrade if you cross a certain line. Sure, there's still some sandbagging, but, in my experience, the field at most races are pretty competitive and I've been in a lot of bike races, at least in Colorado. This would ensure that at least the AG's that compete at a pro level are, in fact, competing with the class that they should be (obviously details would need to be worked out to avoid gaming the system too much).