Innovate or get left behind. The Wahoo Kickr started a new trend of trainers.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

No idea but I did notice a couple of times last week when I tried to go to their website that it was down. Seems to be abck up though.

If true, what's Dave going to do?

Bummer!

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Lar Dog

I'm shocked they are still in business.

They should have sold their tech to a bigger company and cashed out years ago instead of dying a slow death due to lack of innovation.

Actually, I thought that no one came close for HARDWARE. It seems smart to open up the software side for all, but they were way too late to that party. Another issue was they are/were made too well, and once bought, lasted many, many years, unlike our "planned obsolescence" manufacturing so prevalent. Still a great tool when used with TrainerRoad, Strava, etc.

Agreed. I bought mine in 2002 and it's still going strong. I haven't used CT software in years, all the other software platforms are compatible. I'll use mine until it breaks, if I don't die first.

Wow, hope this is not true. I sure love using my velotrons, but I do need replacement parts once in a while. Sure would hate to end
up with very expensive paper weights.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Pretty sure you've gotten your money's worth by now.

Maybe, but since there is NOTHING on the market that comes close to the velotron, .....

I just hope I can get some spare parts and have these units outlive me.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I agree regarding hardware. The number of horror stories you can find for wheel-on smart trainers (cycleops, tacx, KK, wahoo) is absurd despite those products having relatively small, inactive user bases. Computrainer? You're very hard pressed to find hardware issues with Computrainer despite a much larger, more mature, and arguably more active user base.

How often does something need to be repaired or replaced? I mean... seriously... at this rate I'm pretty sure computers will stop having USB ports before I actually have to replace anything.

Looks like they were actively tweeting yesterday, including one this morning. Not sure what's going on.

Other than wires, I have no complaints re the hardware. I certainly have never had an ant + drop out on zwift like so many others seem to have on a regular basis.

Seems like a suicide vs natural causes though. Definitely brought on by lack of action by management. Maybe someone else can buy the division and do some actual innovation, or even just make it open source and sell rock solid hardware.

I bought a Magnus last year. Regret it. Would dearly swap it for a CT.

Great hardware. Software control is ok now. Road feel is fine. Wired connections beat ant+ every time.

So who's going to go buy a matchrider now?

;)

---

blog

I know you can just keep using the computrainer. what about the software? I'm just curious because I go to a cycling class once a week with computrainers setup. obviously they'll have to now change those out once they die, if ever. I suppose they can't just keep using the computrainers and software until one or both die. Does trainerroad have a setup where you have have multiple users running at same time on same display?

I wonder what all those bike shops with indoor cycling classes/ time trials will use going forward. You have all that investment in hardware. Plus It seems that for a situation in which people come and go, the fact of not having to take off a wheel/worry about gearing/compatibility, etc is probably the most convenient for them.

Can't say I'm surprised if this turns out to be true. As BryanD mentioned...innovate or get left behind.

Now who am I going to sue when my flywheel explodes up my ass and causes me to almost hemorrhage to death?

after computrainer, what's considered next best on wheel trainer? wahoo kickr snap? cycleops magnus? are those as solidly built as computrainer?

Probably something by Elite.

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***

Whoever buys during a forthcoming bankruptcy, or the parent company.

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----------------------------------
Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

Kickr Snap and Magnus are both solid trainers and you will be happy with either one.

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SmartBikeTrainers.com || YouTube || My Twitter

Anyone else here received that email circulating online?

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---

SmartBikeTrainers.com || YouTube || My Twitter

Wahoo introduced a solution for studios last year. Not sure whether that is already available but that would be a candidate.

I agree, I have one and I know I won't have issues just need to get on and ride. I am on the old software version I think it's a lot easier to use than the new pretty one but that may be just me.

Oh I'm no thanks in the market. Just curious what some cycling centers might move to

I have had no choice but to use the old sw since they never got the new stuff updated to work with the Velotron, even though I was promised multiple time
for years it was being worked on. :(

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I've had my Computrainer for 7 years and it has had no issues. I use it exclusively with Zwift now, so I don't care about software updates. When the thing finally does fail, I'll just move on to a Neo or Hammer or whatever else is popular when I look for a replacement.

Not sure about TR but I imagine a lot of studios could use perfpro studios with a mix of computrainer/kickr/whatever as the old computrainers slowly die.

At least, for me, the Velotrons will continued to be produced. Yea

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

THIS

For me, if I'm doing a workout at 5:30am fresh out of bed, I just need to show up and pedal. I need something that just works. No diagnosing wireless connections, unplugging the trainer and then plugging it back in, restarting your computer, etc. There's plenty of bullshit to deal with in the course of a normal day. There's no reason you should have to deal with it on your stationary trainer.

I don't know that there is one. Search around a bit: plenty of issues with the kickr snap and the Magnus. Tacx seems far from bulletproof in this department too and KK's new wheel-on erg seems to be having significant teething problems as well. I would almost say get a Neo, Drivo, or just stick with a dumb trainer like the KK Road Machine.

I have a tacx vortex smart. It's works fine but not as solid as my old cycleops fluid 2. Not a fan of tacx tightening mechanism compared to cycleops. I'm curious what cycling studios that use computrainers will turn to

PerfPRO Studio is the way to go:

www.perfprostudio.com

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Travis Rassat
Vector Cycle Works
Noblesville, IN
BikeFit Instructor | FMS | F.I.S.T. | IBFI
Toughman Triathlon Series Ambassador

Definitely a good point.

I haven't had any hands on yet, but I think the Kinetic Road Machine Smart Control has a lot of potential to be the Computrainer replacement. The Road Machine is a solid trainer from a frame/construction perspective. It also has a USB port, so you don't have to go wireless. Wireless connectivity has been one of the biggest pains I've had to deal with when setting up different studios and groups with multi-rider systems.

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Travis Rassat
Vector Cycle Works
Noblesville, IN
BikeFit Instructor | FMS | F.I.S.T. | IBFI
Toughman Triathlon Series Ambassador

I have great respect for Chuck and the gang at Computrainer. I hope this is not true. I have owned my CT since 2000, and have used it regularly (at least 2x/wk) since then with no issues. Like the old Timex commercial, it just keeps on ticking and does everything a 66 year old body needs to do to keep on ticking as well.

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Dean Wilson
http://www.anaerobiczone.com
Bicycle Protection Indoors & Out

Counterpoint:

Really poor reviews here, here, and here (on Zwift problems).

My thought is that Wahoo should just buy up CT's technology and merge the best attributes of both worlds. That would be solid.

As a longtime CT user I used to feel this way, i.e. it just works and that makes me happy. However, after my final Ironman in 2014 I decided to liquidate much of the trip related items, including the CT.

Well, fast forward a couple of years and I'm getting into riding again. I ended up picking up a Kickr2 this past December. While I can't say it's better than the CT, it certainly isn't worse. I haven't had any issues with it over the last 2.5 months of use. It just works and that makes me happy.

Seems to be confirmed now:

https://www.dcrainmaker.com/...ases-production.html

I'll 2nd that. A Kickr Snap that actually works properly (and has the option for a wired connection) would be really nice.

Whichever company is honest enough to admit their products are flawed, buys them and then updates the software wins the trainer wars.

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***

Verbatim, this is the reason I sold my Computrainer after much frustration. It was easy to use the way a 1987 IBM was easy to use.

I should have mentioned that I have it hooked up to a dedicated computer running TrainerRoad. That's about as easy as it gets.

Same here. Easy, accurate and translates into GREAT results! I've been on board since the 90's.......and it's still the best. Hopefully I'll never have to buy another, but if so it would be a Saris product.

What a Gift....The potential of buying the best trainer "to this day" ever made...for pennies!!!

Can you clarify? Will they still produce Velotrons and parts for them for sale or is this a private deal you've organized with them? I have had a Velotron for ten years now and I would never want to use anything else and it's been solid over the years but I shudder to imagine I might need a part or service and not be able to get it.

+1 from me. I love Perfpro.


Joel

Support for Computrainer from TrainerRoad, Zwift and PerfPro Studio is there DESPITE Racermate.

They needed to use reverse engineering to work with it, as the asshats at Racermate never opened up and wanted exclusivity deals etc for access to protocols.

Whilst I am genuinely sorry for those folks that have now lost their jobs, they should look squarely at those managing the business for the reasons it failed to dominate a market it basically created.

A sad day.

Mark

If you read the release carefully, they just talk about the CT, and nothing about the VT. The message I got back from RM says they will continue to make, support the VT for the moment as if nothing has changed. Now, I did ask them about SW support and will see what I get back. I am planning to buy some spare parts just in case. What sw are you running with the VT. And I totally agree, there is NO trainer better than the Velotron. Sure glad I have 4 of them in case at some point they stop making. If I see another for a fair price, I might buy some more. Have you had any parts break? I just lost a bolt on my varicrank, just like I did on my powercranks. I am wearing stuff out.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Think about your statement logically for a second. Out of all the trainers sold since the KICKR was first released in early 2013, what percentage do you think were Computrainer. My guess is 1%, and that's probably generous. So I don't think Tacx, Wahoo, KK, and Saris are exactly worried about anything Computrainer related and I'm doubtful any of them are chomping at the bit to scoop up CT's ashes. Why would they? They've soundly thrashed CT over the last four years.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

I agree, Mark.

Their hardware (and for the most part) software platforms remained unchanged for HOW long? Hardware is/was solid (except for the inconvenience of keeping a tire inflated, keeping the tension consistent, and having to warm up the unit / calibrate before starting a workout). Software is/was a steaming pile of crap.

I worked on a project for a while to replace the LYC/DIN cable with a small ethernet/bluetooth/wifi control unit mounted on the frame. No help from RacerMate. We didn't have time to reverse engineer the LYC or document the communication protocol, so the project just died. That's an idea someone at RacerMate should have been pursuing YEARS ago.

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king of the road says you move too slow
KING OF THE ROAD SAYS YOU MOVE TOO SLOW

^^^^^ removing a couple cables would done A LOT to save the brand... ant+ cadence and a PC/iphone/android APP to do calibration and what not... it is not rocket science.

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The entire event (IM) is like "death by 1000 cuts" and the best race is minimizing all those cuts and losing less blood than the other guy. - Dev

I use mine with Ergvideo. I used the VT software in the early days but have not done so for a very long time. For me it's the best setup - simply, easy to use and reliable. I don't need wireless or to be able to hook up with anyone else. I just want robust and dependable use, and my VT does that for me.

out with the old and in with the new... Neo, Drivo, and Kickr are the future!

Drivo being my fav by far cause it has a power meter in it and u will never need to calibrate it!

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The entire event (IM) is like "death by 1000 cuts" and the best race is minimizing all those cuts and losing less blood than the other guy. - Dev

Maybe this will be the best thing to ever happen to the load unit / frame.

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king of the road says you move too slow
KING OF THE ROAD SAYS YOU MOVE TOO SLOW

This is sad, but bound to happen. Kickr/Neo are just miles ahead for the same price as a CT. I had a CT for 10+ years and it's bomb proof. Just used Erg mode and did interval after interval. Changed to Neo given all the smart capabilities, noise, and Trainer Road control. Just leaps and bounds better than CT software, but at the end of the day CT works!

In 2012 at Eagleman, before the existence of Wahoo Fitness, the better Tacx, and other smart trainers I asked the Racermate rep when they would be coming out with software for the MacOS platform. I was told never. In fact, they wouldn't be coming up with major software updates for any platform because the developers had all moved on. According to him, they were living on the existing product and had no real plans for change.

Needless to say I crossed the Computertrainer off my list of smart trainers to buy. Given that conversation from their sales rep, I didn't expect them to be in business too long.

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Pete Githens
Reading, PA

Not yet proven, but kurt kinetic has one now.

Don't need to calibrate the Neo either.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

isn't calculated instead actual power?

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The entire event (IM) is like "death by 1000 cuts" and the best race is minimizing all those cuts and losing less blood than the other guy. - Dev

It appears the owners made a conscious decision to just milk the company for all it was worth, not invest anything, and then eventually wind it down when the gravy train ran out. With the lack of any reinvestment, presumably their profit margins were pretty high, perhaps high enough to justify not selling out in the past to the various parties that expressed interest, although you would think at some point it would have made sense to sell it while there was still some value remaining. But apparently their customers and their employees meant nothing to them.

We have a CT that we purchased second hand for pretty short money, hopefully it will still run for many years and not end up in the dump due to lack of spare parts as it gets the job done fine for us. All in all, a pretty sad story, and that's being kind.

Kind of harsh.
They were pretty much the only power based trainers for years, and they worked near perfect with little maintenance and excellent customer service. Its not like they suddenly stole a bunch of money from people.
For those who have them, they will likely still outlast many of the new erg trainers on the market.

I would add the CycleOps Hammer to that list. Very solid trainer.

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SmartBikeTrainers.com || YouTube || My Twitter

Racermate / Computrainer has been such a staple in the lives of so many Slowtwitchers. I think a front page article on the current happenings would be very interesting, and I'd be surprised if one were not already in the works.

Yes but because it's a true direct drive trainer there really aren't any variables to deal with (unlike the belts in the Kickr and Drivo).

I wouldn't bank on that one stepping into Computrainer's shoes given initial reviews from customers. It's amazing to me a company like KK can go from making a bomb-proof fluid trainer (my favorite fluid trainer too) to what appears to be absolute garbage.

Technology and the market pivoted; CT did not. It is just like the story of Blockbuster video refusing to enter the digital or kiosk space for fear it would cannibalize their brick-and-mortar business. DCR summarized the pivot pretty well-- the slow death began 5 or 6 years ago with Kickr & TrainerRoad. CT failed to engage in the open trainer & software space (they would have had to have abandoned their SW and opened the trainer to standard wireless interfaces), and the product line died as a result.

I still think someone will buy up CT. There still is really no better hw on the market. And even though I do not think one needs the wireless hassles, having a platform
that can give you both options would be smart.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

This is a likely candidate in this regard. There is work under way with PerfPro using the wired USB connection to the Kinetic trainers and I think we will see some traction in this area.

I very rarely agree with h2ofun about trainer, but I will agree on these two fronts:

A) It's not about the lower level employees. Time and time again they expressed frustrations to me about the owners not wanting to move forward.

B) I think someone will buy up CT (there's already a line from what I see), but that's only if Chuck lets them. Right now, they aren't answering calls/e-mails from interested buyers. So...yeah.

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-
My tiny little slice of the internets: dcrainmaker.com

With respect, the market has spoken. Its not the best. Its dead.

Racermate definitely has some good people there. It is unfortunate that the companycould not adapt to today and also provide a competitive price point.

I agree that CT is a very sold piece of hardware. I owned one for several years. Maybe they are still the most durable (that will take time to determine), and I can't argue if that is a portion of "best". Nevertheless, I have now used the Tacx Neo for over a year, I can say that is does everything as well as the CT, and can do certain things that the CT cannot do. Maybe those are features that you are not interested in, but I have to say that it is better that the CT (but both still really good!)

As far as the Velotron being the best available; that comes down to where you draw the line between trainer and lab ergometer. Velotron is really a low end electronically braked lab ergometer. It can't really match the lineup from Lode. Probably doesn't compete with the SRM ergometer either. Again, a fine piece or hardware, but certainly not he best.

Ray, interesting question not yet answered. What will happen with ErgVideo, will they open there software for PerfPro or other platforms?

Spot on! in the garage we have both a new Computrainer and a KK Road Machine along with Trainer Road and a dedicated desktop PC. Guess which one see all of the use, the KK and Trainer Road. I would rather go to the trouble of taking the wife's bike off the KK to put mine on then bother with all of the set up etc on the Computrainer, not to mention it crashes the computer half the time trying to get it set up.

Anyone want to buy a Computrainer, less then 100 miles on it.

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Mike Plumb, TriPower MultiSports
Professional Running, Cycling and Multisport Coaching, F.I.S.T. Certified
http://www.tripower.org

Hello Mike Plumb and All,

https://www.dcrainmaker.com/...ases-production.html

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Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster

:)



I could never understand why RM would not allow, for both the CT and VT, the API's to be released, and supported, but RM, so third party SW could go nuts on the
best hardware our there. Even though the CT stuff have been reversed engineered, from what I could see, RM never got over being upset and did not fully support
the third party apps that do run on the CT.

I thought RM had the Wireless stuff done for the HW. I wonder if RM decided to not let it be released at the end of last year.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Hmmm, so many possibilities for why this might be happening that have nothing to do with the business itself and which the owner might want to avoid seeing the light of day.

Odd.

All I every read on the Zwift groups is people having trouble with their trainers.

My Computrainer is rock solid. Wake the computer, fire up trainer road and/or zwift and go. Never have a problem. I usually am waiting on netflix to finish buffering by the time I'm ready to ride.

X2. We have 5 CTs set up in the basement studio, and it takes about 3 minutes for all 5 riders to change out bikes, calibrate (initial) and get ready to ride. All our wires are under the carpet, and we've not had a failure, hang up, or issue in 3 years.

9X CompuTrainer Owner

They work with the Kickr and Neo now.

$9.99 per month and u can ride multiple courses, race if u feel like it, and running it on any computer... Zwift >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ErgVideos

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The entire event (IM) is like "death by 1000 cuts" and the best race is minimizing all those cuts and losing less blood than the other guy. - Dev

I know but in a very complicated way as it was tailormade for CT. Nice thing would be if the video's would run in/with for example PerfPro or Trainerroad.

I don't think it's harsh at all. No, they didn't steal from anyone, except themselves. Their story is a masterpiece of stupidity. It should be a HBS project. They allowed their dominant place in the market to be completely eclipsed by upstarts that they had the power to crush. No matter how much they milked out of the company by keeping R&D costs low, it has to pale in comparison to the potential sales they could have had as indoor training has exploded in recent years. Per DC rainmaker, the kickr came about after wahoo took an idea for a controller to Racermate and Racermate said no.

I'll just keep using my CT until it breaks and no parts are available. Could be years from now.

Pretty much the same that is happening to SRM...

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The entire event (IM) is like "death by 1000 cuts" and the best race is minimizing all those cuts and losing less blood than the other guy. - Dev

ErgVideo has already been moving on. They support Kickrs now and I think anything with Ant+ F-EC

Wow, never had those issues. Do you have computer issues?

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I agree. How many other example are there of a business that effectively invents a new market segment only to find they go out of business at a time when business is absolutely booming? Just this week I heard on the ZwiftCast an interview with the owner of Tacx and he explained how the Neo was their highest selling trainer by volume. The idea that their top end smart trainer outsells every other model is mind blowing to me. Yes, in this environment where the market is ready and willing to buy smart trainers the company that invented it can't stay in business.

Here are a few recent examples...
Yahoo
Visicalc & Lotus 1-2-3
Sony Betamax, Minidisk, etc. (Sony has a crapton of first-mover failures)
Palm Pilot
Compaq PJB-100
Friendster

It's improper to gloat over the demise of a company who made a great product that I enjoyed plenty in its time.

It's not improper for me to gloat at all of the luddites on these boards who have spent the last 5 years denouncing the competition and evangelizing their positions against all evidence to to the contrary. Fortunately for my sanity I realized the futility of continuing to argue this topic a few years ago and simply sat back to let history take its course.

Anyone who wishes is free to happily ride their CTs until the end of time. Shockingly, it's possible to like what you like without requiring everyone else on the internet to agree with you in order to validate your decisions.

Totally agree

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I don't get it, but it sounds like they are going out of biz, but the owners will not sell off the IP and assets? This makes no sense? I was half toying with the idea myself, but I think someone like Wahoo would be in a much better position given that they are in the biz and developed the supply chain and channels to market and I have none of that.

FWIW there's quite the little battle in the comments on DCR's site going on between Richard Wharton & Roger Moore about the demise of CT. Don't personally know the backstory but makes for interesting reading.

Yeah, Wharton really takes their decisions personally. If they could draw Coggan into the argument it would really be entertaining.

(Picking you to respond to, merely because I know you're most interested in this tidbit)

I have received confirmation that Velotron will continue to be produced. The sum total of that detail is in the sentence to the left.

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-
My tiny little slice of the internets: dcrainmaker.com

Thanks, I got that same input from a person at RM last night in an email. Still trying to get some extra parts, just in case.

The big question is what sw with RM keep supporting on the Velotron? Meaning, technically, the only piece that "works" is the original old stuff, that I am using.
I beta tested RM1 and found plenty of bugs I sent back to RM years ago, but RM never got them fixed. Since ergovideo works on the VT, it clearly is just a sw issue.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Am totally disappointed Ray has allowed the personal attacks to stay up on his site. I thought his site was different, compared to Dan allowing over the years the personal attacks on slowtwitch from folks who have no name.
I guess too many snowflakes just like to post and hide behind their keyboards attacking others. :)

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I can't say one bad thing about my computrainer. Two to three times per week every week since January 2001. I've spent a lot of those grinding 4 and 5 hour sessions on it and never a hiccup. Sad to see them go. Used to race the silver man a lot but once Sufferfest came around I no longer have computer even hooked up. Use my powertap and either my Joule or my new fancy Fenix 3.

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Roar Lion Roar

Like others have said, lets hope someone else buys up the remains of Computrainer and moves it forward.

I've gone through and removed some of the specific personal attacks against employees. Thanks for noting it.

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-
My tiny little slice of the internets: dcrainmaker.com

Someone as in an established competitor or a new player?

For the established competitor - What's the upside for a company like Wahoo or Tacx or Saris or KK or whoever in gobbling up Computrainer? They make the machines that put Computrainer out of business. Seems like it would be a move in the wrong direction. I get the bomb proof consistency and structural and mechanical reliability of the CT but having owned a KICKR and currently own a Neo, they're both pretty damn stout from a structural perspective. Yes, there's a lot more whiz bang electro tech in the new smart trainers so we will know more in 5-10 years if they hold up like a CT. So I don't get an existing player grabbing CT.

I get a new player coming in and updating the CT to this century and wanting to take a stab at Wahoo, Tacx, and Saris. Which leads to another issue that I don't think has been brought up... do new customers actually gave a rat's ass about CT or CT's legacy? It's old school now so I'm not sure anyone is clamoring for a CT comeback besides existing fans. It's like if Netscape decided they wanted to make a new web browser after getting soundly trounced by newer tech 20 years ago. Would anyone give a shit about a new Netscape browser? People would ask, "What's Netscape?"

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

Thank you!!!

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I do believe many folks would like a reliable piece of HW, which is not what I read all the time about the other products.
I am just so lucky I just ride my Velotrons, 7 days a week, no warmups, no fw updates, no power moving around, no nothing. Just get on each morning, start
riding and never have to play with anything.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

After an admittedly short but somewhat rigorous investigation, it appears the owner(s) have no intention of selling it. It appears they just want to shut it down and bury it. Almost out of spite it seems.... almost as if to sell it and see someone improve it would be a personal defeat.

Weird.

See my post #83.

There's a reason and I'm willing to wager it's not spite or unwillingness to admit defeat.

So, why do you think they might not sell?

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Well c'mon. If they were capable of rational decisions, this thread wouldn't exist.

Are you thinking pending litigation of some sort?

I should first say that I have no knowledge of anything specific to CT or RM (other than once being a CT owner/user). See post on first page as to why I'm no longer an owner.

I do, however, have experience in business dissolutions that appear questionable from the outside and have seen "under the hood" several times to understand why an owner would rather simply close up shop than a sale process and it's implications. I don't want to run afoul of any forum rules and Dan so I'm reluctant to expand.

Just for what it's worth, if you read the recriminations amongst the Computrainer employees over on DCR's blog, they seem to be referring to a situation where they've shut down because they're no longer economically viable as a company.

...but then again, why keep producing the Velotron? No way that's a money maker. How many could they possibly sell... 10 or 20 a year?

Kodak - they invented digital cameras

Finally a thread with some legs. Reminds me of the old Slowtwitch days...<sigh>

The question I'm pondering is how much reverse engineering will now take place in the software arena, given that RM might not be in a position to protest.

With 8 CompuTrainers, I guess I have enough parts to keep the studio going for several years. If anyone want to throw in to make a play for RM, I'd be interested.

Sadly, I don't think they will accept offers. The owners are just that dense.

My prediction is that their engineering staff that remain are in panic mode. If RacerMate doesn't want to sell the business along with its intellectual property, the effective same will happen if their staff take that knowledge out the door with them and work for competitors.

The market isn't always correct. The owners actively drove the company into the ground. They were so many years ahead of the competition (1980s, 1990s), yet failed to add new technologies to their products in a timely manner to at the very least remain competitive. In any event there just isn't anything readily available that is comparable to the Velotron.

Not that RM1 is/was any good, but there is simply no excuse in the world for how long that took and how little they got done. Clearly management was working against that project .... which shouldn't have been a project in the first place. They should have stuck to the hardware and left the software to the many 3rd parties that had far better products.

Hopefully the interface for the VT gets released so that it can be easily supported by all the 3rd party software.

Agreed the RM is resistant to sell, but my point was that in terms of an attractive studio trainer implementation the Kurt Kinetic has some appeal as they have a USB wired connection in addition to wireless.

Ergvideo had already expanded to include the Kickr (sometime early last year) and recently (December?) other FE-C trainers.

Zwift doesn't work with the Velotron so unfortunately with respect to that ErgVideo >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Zwift.

Yes, but it would be nice to have the video's integrated for example in PerfPro or TrainerRoad. With both you can use Sufferfest videos so having Ergvideo's would be nice.

I have asked RM about what sw are they going to support for the continued production of the velotron, since RM1 was never updated to work. I would love to see them
release the API, which I heard was proposed to do.

Pretty sure we all know who wrote a big part of RM1. :)

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

You can't ride a Velotron in real life so unfortunately with respect to that my bike+power meter >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Velotron (plus I can use zwift for the fun of it)

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The entire event (IM) is like "death by 1000 cuts" and the best race is minimizing all those cuts and losing less blood than the other guy. - Dev

don't hold your breath u know how they are...

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The entire event (IM) is like "death by 1000 cuts" and the best race is minimizing all those cuts and losing less blood than the other guy. - Dev

Interesting.

Sorry to hear about this and for Chuck Wurster and the team.

As Ray Maker says in his blog on this https://www.dcrainmaker.com/...ases-production.html any one riding indoors these days has Chuck to thank for the experience. First with the RacerMate wind trainers, and then with the Computrainer with the added bells and whistles of power metering etc . .

I had one of the original RaceMate wind training units back in the 1980's. Roared like a lion when you were really rocking on the thing!

I never got too worked up about the technological advances with the indoor training because for me, while I admit it's kind of boring (I would rather be outside riding), indoor riding to me has been about knocking out a hard hour of riding and then getting off - In my whole time as a triathlete/cyclist (30+years), I have RARELY ridden more than an hour at a time indoors. Consequently, the reason that all the mid-term developments with Computrainer and now more recent funky and very cool developments, the height of this, the current rage with Zwift, had no appeal to me personally - although I can clearly see the benefits for others!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Steve, totally agree with you. I just ride my Velotron using the original old CS and 3D sw. It works. I do not need anything else to mess with. I watch a movie while I ride, Alien was this pick today, so it makes my 90 minute rides as bearable as possible. I see, for some, the need to have fancier sw just like some have the need for a coach. I do not need any extra motivation. Now I have always made the comment that if coaches where so great, why am I not always dead last in races. Guess I can make the same comment about fancy bike sw that some use. why are they not the first off the bike then? I have zero desire to pay for things like monthly sw expenses for my hobby. :) (Would rather just have a few extra velotrons. :) )

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Hindsight is always 20/20, but companies often make decision based on the climate of the time. I have no specific knowledge of RM/CT, but here are some general observations I would offer up based on my personal experience as engineer/entrepreneur/end-user:

SW/HW integration: when CT was dominating the market, I can see the management decided there simply isn't any reasons for them to release their HW platform for other's SW to ride on top of it; after all, in its day, Microsoft made their money on other people's HW while Apple resisted and kept its tight integration of HW and SW.

Investment for new product: my guess is that the basic technology of CT is a wired solution that requires dedicated CPU resource and communication ports, and it probably wrote a lot of its own drivers. It is by and large a much simpler and more "deterministic" embedded system - like an industrial control system. That simplicity probably contributed a great deal to its reliability comparing to the newer trainers of today where it would have to handle wireless and multiple communication protocols. For RM to move to next gen product, they probably would've to start from scratch, leverage very little of their existing hardware and software core, and compete on the level field with the likes of Wahoo/Tacx/Cycleops/et al.

Sell-off of assets: while there may be other business reasons (legally most of the time) they have not sought or responded to potential buyers, from technology perspectice, as I said above, there probably isn't anything core asset that would be valuable for either an existing player or newcomer because of their out-dated technology. Even the name of CT and its associated reputation may not be of much value these days.

Again, caveat emptor, just my outsider's perspective.

if u race outside u def paying more than $9.99 for your hobby :) even our local TT is $10 per week and the same for the local crit. Real races under USAC umbrella will set u back $20+ so I don't see $9.99 as bad (not trying to argue just giving u a different perspective on the subject)

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The entire event (IM) is like "death by 1000 cuts" and the best race is minimizing all those cuts and losing less blood than the other guy. - Dev

For me it is principal. Now my looking at spending 8K to go to Penticton, well, .... :)

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I'm not a PerfPro user, but I'm pretty sure it supports videos. You should be able to use any Ergvideo with it. You just won't be able to use the erg data. That unfortunately, you would need to recreate for PerfPro. I don't see that changing as ErgVideo erg data is exclusive to the app an licensed per pc.

I don't understand why one wouldn't use the ergvideo app for ergvideos. Seems pretty easy.

Well that's not quite a fair comparison, any bike outdoors is better than any trainer. Except perhaps during the winter, in which case I'd take the torture of the trainer over freezing various body parts off and getting blown across the road.

I wonder if Andy Potts would agree with you

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Andy didn't ride indoors because he enjoyed it more than outdoors, AFAIK. Riding indoors is for safety, convenience, weather, and training stress efficiency.

I was just responding to the comment that any bike outdoors is better than any trainer. For some, enjoyment, yep. For the best mile for mile, minute for minute, if used correctly, the trainer blows away outside training.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Funny, I feel the exact same way about treadmills, but love the trainer. Was on early this morning for 3 hours watching the uncut version of American Gangster. It's like a twofer!

Hate my Magnus. It's in the process of being returned and I'm getting another dumb trainer.

You will drop 7k on a trainer but skimp on the software !?

I think you might be post-rationalising the situation you find yourself in Dave.

CHEERS

Mark

Boy are you making assumptions about what I paid on a trainer Fake news.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

After seeing some of the more passionate comments on the DCR blog post before they were edited or removed I continued to think about the great legacy of the CT. I have no history with the company of the use other than reading so many positive comments from users over the years. I have seen a few gripes and I had one friend that seemed to be plagued with constant flat tires using the CT. I did a search years ago and found other people also having issues with flats, but those things seemed to be minor. I have seen random gripes about the company and its unwillingness to move forward with technology, but those were minimal when observed to the people that said they loved the CT.

The one things that seems to stand out the most is the consistency in the production of the CT and the high rate of those who say it is accurate and built rock solid.

Despite knowing this reputation of the CT, I was one of those who opted to take a chance on the Gen 1 Kickr and had my issues with the power being well off from my power meters. I do like using the Kickr now that my power meter is in control, but as an owner and consistent user I would say that it is far from being the Gold Standard. When going through those first months and discussing with other users it seemed like something in the Kickr production changed and not for the good. In observing the discussion here and elsewhere it seemed like those who purchased the first batch had models that were much closer to matching their power meters. Those of us who purchased many months later were experiencing inconsistent differences with some stating well under and some stating well over in comparison to the meter. I've also seen quite a few having to replace the top cap (electronic portion) of the Kickr.

I never saw that level of discussion with the CT. Maybe I missed seeing those discussions?

For the CT whatever they did it seemed to be consistent in manufacturing each trainer as I never really saw as much discussion on inconsistency as I have with the Kickr. And when I did see a discussion it seemed to be solved by the new CT user being coached on how to set the press down force on the tire.

So maybe the harsh comments toward the company is deserved, but on the other hand big kudos to the company for producing one of the better trainers to hit the market during its span of time.

Then provide counter factuals Dave !

.. not to mention that if one of their biggest supporters thinks their only remaining product is too expensive, then what hope do they have ?

Mark

Not everyone needs fancy software or any software at all.

I've had a computrainer since 2014. The only software I've used is racermate one or zwift and I barely use either of them. ERG mode is where it is on these smart trainers.

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blog

You love having people make assumptions. You refuse to say what you paid. Having 4 velotrons ranks as one of the dumbest things to spend your money on, regardless of how little you paid.

Funny that you agree with some posts here. Your attitude is exactly why computrainer is now gone. You constantly state how perfect they are and anyone needing something better is silly. Guess who was wrong on that one...

And best to stop with the snowflake insults and fake news BS. You are a hypocrite for calling people out on their negative attacks when in the same sentence you attack them.

And, your bike results can't be used as support for the products or training methods you use. I'd wager that you have the least effective training approach on the bike of anyone on this forum. The hours you spend riding should have you as a FOP rider.

I think you're being disingenuous.
You know well that using more elaborate software, say Zwift, can't change the impact of your training unless it changes the content. That is not the point. You can do the same training just using your head unit or with an elaborate platform like Zwift. You can watch movies or stare at a wall. If it doesn't effect you physically your session will have the same physical effect. Obviously.
How you occupy your mind while training may not change your ability to cycle. That doesn't make it irrelevant as you would have us believe. If you don't need extra motivation, good for you. Some do. Maybe, despite not needing it, you'd enjoy it, maybe not. Your business.
I don't have a coach. I can see the pros and cons but I don't think it's for me at the moment. However, I'm not about to claim that my beating someone with a coach proves coaches have no purpose and couldn't offer me something I'm missing. That's nonsense and I'm sure you know it.

… except today that browser exists, and it's called Mozilla Firefox. And FWIW, "newer tech" didn't kill Netscape, Microsoft's antitrust violations did.

Doesn't look like there's any phoenix rising from the Computrainer ashes here, so the legacy looks to be more like Betamax, Divx, HD DVD, etc. Sayonara!