Ummm, i didn't watch the broadcast but, given that Sanders swam 1:01:10, i would not think he would really need a "domestique" to swim a 1:01.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

If this is true, then Lionel burned too many swim matches....

It's Chrabot not Charbot

Matt Lieto commented on it during the swim from his position in the boat. He said early on Charbot was looking back to make sure Sanders was still behind him.

Well, it's just a bummer, I would have thought Lionel could have swum faster drafting off Chabrot. Perhaps Lionel will log on and provide some context for us, as he's done that several times over the past year or so.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

If you had watched it, it was pretty obvious.

I assume that it's technically against the rules to be paced even in the swim, impossible to enforce though, so kudos to the public shaming on the broadcast.

There was lots of talk in "THE Kona Thread" day of the race

In 2012 Chrabot was the first. American and 7th overall out of the water at the San Diego Olympic selection event. A 1:01 swim does not correlate with that.

What is making him humpback?

camelback...legit

It was pretty obvious during the broadcast. I counted three instances of Chrabot rotating to look for Sanders even though I probably only watched half of the swim. I've literally never seen that before in a race.

My $0.02 that's cheating.

"My $0.02 that's cheating. "

Which rule was broken?

Dan said it best in The Offcial Kona Thread:

we've talked about this before, and i have always adhered to the slowman doctrine: "assistance" is not within the rules if it is rendered by an athlete who has abandoned or subordinated his own race ambition, and whose ambition is now to aid another. to me, that would be the case if matt is actually, obviously, pacing lionel. it should be clear based on past performance what matt is capable of.

the difference between potts and frodeno on one hand, and chrabot and sanders on the other, is that neither potts nor frodeno have abandoned their own race ambition.

is it always easy to tell when somebody has abandoned his race ambition? no. but it's not always easy to tell when somebody's doping either. because we can't know every instance of a failure to race by the rules that doesn't mean we should shy from enforcing a rule when it is broken.

the above is my view when it's ironman racing, which is a very clearly individual sport. in ITU racing, if you want to say that it's okay for that style of racing to incorporate team elements, fine. that's up to the ITU. but in ironman racing, this is a different format, a different history, a different culture. it has always been a fiercely individual sport. every man or woman on his own. the slowman doctrine holds say for ironman racing.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I hear and understand you, but was there any rule in the Ironman rule book which was broken?

Arguably, it could be against the USAT rule prohibiting pacing i.e. outside assistance.

I am not so sure, I think it would fall under inside assistance.

"I am not so sure, I think it would fall under inside assistance."

it isn't, nor has it ever, been outside assistance. it has always been unauthorized assistance.

3.4.d. Unauthorized Assistance. No participant shall accept from any person (other than a race official) physical assistance in any form, including food, drink, equipment, support, pacing, a replacement bicycle or bicycle parts, unless an express exception has been granted and approved, in writing, by USA Triathlon. The receipt of information regarding the progress, split times, or location of other competitors on the race course shall not be considered the acceptance of unauthorized assistance. Any violation of this Section shall result in a variable time penalty.

that's pretty clear, it seems to me. if anybody wants to know whether a rule has been broken and what the rule is, there it is.

i don't mind if ironman and/or USAT decides this is legal. it just needs to be addressed by both USAT and ironman: they need to say it's legal or it's not and if it's not they need to stick to that. this isn't new. i have observed a number of occasions over the years, in the pro field, where in my opinion assistance like this in the swim or the bike has been given. this occasion here is probably the most obvious i've ever seen but certainly not the first.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Thank you for the clarification. I agree it is not the first time as there have been many cases of pro-men waiting and pacing their pro-women partners before. Heck the way the rule is written, it could be argued that Chrissy got unauthorized assistance when her competitor gave her a CO2 cartridge to fix a flat. I also agree that USAT/Ironman need to decide what they want and stick to their own rule.

If you're going to cheat, you better win.

Not that he cares, but Lionel lost me as a fan on Saturday. I have been following and rooting for him this season, but I found this move to be pretty weak. If you can't hang, then get beaten or get better so you can hang with the big kids.

He also now doesn't know how much better he needs to get. "Wow, Potts and Frodo beat me out of the water by 13 minutes. Next year if I close that gap to 7 minutes, I'll have a chance to ride/run them down". What is he going to learn about swimming in Kona? That his pacer took a bad line? That his pacer went to fast and he burned too many matches?

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/kj

http://kjmcawesome.tumblr.com/

So when Chrissie got the CO2 that was a violation or was this rule after that?

First of all, of course he paced him, a moron could see that.


Secondly is it against the rules, not any that I can find. Does it go against fair play and the nature of the sport, each has to decide that for themselves.


Thirdly, those of you commenting on the time, keep in mind that the swim was 3 minutes slow for the pointy end pros, probably 4 at the hour range. So that 1;01 is really like a 57 on a normal Kona swim, right about where many though he would be. When swims get funky, always go back and look at the top guys, and their difference to others to keep things in context.


And Lastly, I don't think it came up here, but I mentioned to dan on the phone while this was going on that I though Matt might also pace him on the bike for awhile. For those of you that don't know Matt, he is one of the best bikers in ITU, often breaking away solo for periods of time, but always trying to force breaks. I know Lionel is a monster on the bike too and pushes some big wattage, but for sure Matt could be his pacer for 50, 60, maybe even 70 miles if it was his only goal on the day.


So was anyone in the vicinity when they got passed by Lionel, and did you see Matt out in front(legal distance of course)? If pacing in the swim was within the letter of the rules, then I see no problem with this either. If you are Lionel and you are paying a guy to already break water for you, why not keep it going into the wind as long as possible too?


In the end this is going to force WTC's stand on this type of thing. I believe they have already made a rule that a man may not drop back and abandon his race for a woman, so along with gay marriage I guess there needs to be equality here too. But keep in mind that this one is a lot more tricky to figure out, man and woman is easy, just don't do it. But this need a far larger burden of proof. In this case, there is no doubt it was met, but for example, back when Macca rallied all the troops on the bike to gap Crowie, and all pretty much equal in cycling abilities, would that be not ok too??


I think in some instances this is why many rules just don't get made ahead of time, too many loop holes and enforcing issues. But with ironman it is usually they just have not thought about these scenarios ahead of time, and once they happen, then try and figure out what to do after the fact. How crazy would it have been if it played out exactly like I postured it could have, and Lionel won the race. Then the egg all over their face would be visible to the whole world, instead of a few eyeballs here on ST that read this stuff, or at least my stuff.. (-;

"So when Chrissie got the CO2 that was a violation or was this rule after that?"

this technically broke the rule. but i would not have given a penalty for that. the sportsmanship exception. that's slowman rule, sub-paragraph 1, exception 3.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I have definitely given flat repair supplies to other athletes during races. Never thought of this as cheating, but I'll reference the "Slowman sportsmanship exception" if I ever get busted.

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/kj

http://kjmcawesome.tumblr.com/

Pacing on the bike would have been prohibited. On our race packet, there was explicit instruction - "TEAM CYCLING OR RUNNING IS PROHIBITED AND WILL RESULT IN DISQUALIFICATION."

I believe this may have been tied to accusations from last year's race that Ronnie Schildknecht and another BMC/UPlace athlete dropped back to protect and pace Bart Aernouts. Or it may always have been there. I am not sure.

We will see if next year they add "swimming" to that list as well...

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

hey, i was guilty of this at this year's IM. guy gets a flat, right on kuakini hwy, 1 mile into the race. he's there, trying to fill up his tire with a CO2 cartridge. i was going to give him 1 cartridge to get the job done, and if he flubbed it i was going to do the 2nd cartridge for him. he got it done with the 1st cartridge. but i did cart off the empty tube for him (had he not it would have been "abandonment of equipment.").

so, i think this is a sub-paragraph 2, exceptions 1 and 3, which are: 1) spontaneous versus premeditated help; 2) sportsmanship.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Introducing subjectivity into the equation deafens the rule to interpretation. Chrissy got the sportsmanship exception but Heather Wurtele did not in Couer D'Alene when a fellow competitor gave her equipment (a whole bike but really just equipment). Both would fall under the same sportsmanship exception - no?

There are many folks who argued that Heather should not have been DQ'ed. And, in a stroke of brilliance, Christie Sym (I *THINK* - please correct me if I am wrong) argued that she wasn't actually assisting Heather. Stripes-style, she claimed she wasn't giving Heather her bike, she was abandoning it and heather was claiming it. Unfortunately, heather would then have been guilty of abandoning her own bike...

But the main point was that Chrissie also should have been DQ'ed. But no marshal witnessed the assistance. Just like they don't view the NBC footage and then hand out drafting penalties. Chrissie didn't actually get an "exemption." There isn't one. She just got lucky.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

It is also interesting to me that the rule prohibits receiving unauthorized assistance but says nothing about providing it. In other words, Sanders arguably broke a rule but Matt did not.

Are bike swaps prohibited?

between competitors yes. You can receive a bike from race support/official.

Who gives a sh$t? All it really shows is that even with a draft, Sanders is out of his league in the swim. I am a fan of the guy but if he is going to be competitive at the 140.6 distance, time to tackle the weakness with a tenacity that exceeds the level of training he puts into the other two sports.

I got into trouble a few weeks ago talking about the spirit of the sport and suggesting that slingshotting, is a form of cheating.

We have, in a way, accepted that for the bike equipment, with the result that it is no longer a level playing field (and I am as much to blame) because those with money to spare can gain an advantage over those more able but with less resources. Perhaps the solution would be to throw the bikes in a pile and draw lots, now that would be a gas.

In swimming, because of the nature of the sport and the way open water swimming has always been run, it is more difficult to call someone drafting a cheat, it is just too difficult to consider banning it or requiring a set separation. You can provide a separation with lanes, but that is not going to happen in a mass start or AG start swim.

However having said all that, one competitor providing assistance, for some form of personal gain, however given, is absolutely against the spirit of the sport. Drafting a faster swimmer requires some effort and the possibility of burnout, but having a swimmer wait for a specific competitor, that removes the individual accomplishment and that smacks of cheating.

My bigger problem are those who start with the words, if there is no rule against it, it's ok. Too many people spend their time looking for an omission in the rules in order to gain an advantage, in life, as well as this sport. Takes all the fun out of too many things.

edit, never mind, covered if I bothered to read the thread!

OK, I'll bite... if you aren't using the rules as a guide as to what you can and can't do (whether by omission or not), then what do you suggest we use that would place everyone on the same equal footing?

Have to agree, the Macca thingy with teaming up the guy's to gap Crowie on the bike sounds a lot like team work... I'm sure this type of thing happens too many times to list. With all the so called "teams" being created, I'm guessing we should start to get used to it.

Well... we all witnessed it on the IM Video when she thanks Bec as she rode by.....

That was my point exactly above around post 5 or so. Really, if he's drafting off a faster swimmer and yet still only swims a 1:01, and as a result is 10:20 behind the leaders, then he really needs to work on his swim. Maybe he can get jonnyo to help him out, or attend snappingT pro training camp in January. Ajthomas made the comment maybe 8-9 months ago when one of Lionel's "training day" videos was initially put up on youtube, that he was kind of doing his training in reverse, e.g. bike long and hard first, then run long and hard, then, with whatever energy left, try to swim hard. It seems like he should put his swim workout first so that can attack it when relatively fresh, not to mention that S-B-R is almost always the order of events.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Unfortunately, I didn't get to see the live feed but if this is true...and it sounds like it is...this is incredibly disappointing. Even if this isn't illegal it provides an advantage to an athlete that otherwise would not exist. I have been a HUGE Sanders fan but this would throw all of that out the window. If true, it was definitely premeditated.

I would love to hear from Sanders, Chrabot, or someone in their camps.

My question...why would Chrabot agree to do this? Do he and Sanders have some sort of relationship?

Kind of like the old barter system...

I will address this matter as truthfully and openly as possible, and take responsibility for any flack. About a month ago my coach Barrie Shepley came to me with an idea of finding someone to swim with during the Ironman swim. The logic being that the front guys have someone to swim with, so why not try to find someone to swim with as well. My first thought was that this would be against the rules, in the same manner that having your coach bike beside you is against the rules. Barrie then told the idea to Jimmy Riccitello (head referee for WTC) and asked if this was in violation of any of the rules. He said no. Admittedly, the idea did not sit very well with me, but if it wasn't against the rules I guess it was worth a shot.

The next task was to find someone who would be willing to help. I have connected with Matt Chrabot on several occasions at races and we have gotten along quite well. After his big performance in Chattanooga we figured he would not be looking to have a big outing in Kona. Barrie contacted him and asked if he was still coming to Kona, and if he would be willing to test this idea out. Being a nice guy and someone I consider to be a friend, he said yes.

I swam on his left hip the entire race. With hindsight, I would say all the concentration I put on staying on his hip probably hindered my swim, as very little focus was left to put on actually swimming hard, or on holding good form. The final conclusion: It didn't do much to improve my swim. In the practice swim the week prior I swam over a minute faster.

My final thoughts on the matter: It was a cop-out and I regret even testing the idea. Instead of looking for shortcuts, learn how to swim.

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http://www.lsanderstri.com

I think with this post and the closing statement you just won over a lot of fans. Best of luck with next year. Your race was pretty solid considering you did Tremblant not a long time ago!

awesome reply

now make your way to penticton....i will sort out your 1h swim issue for ever

seriously....

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

I don't think biting is in the rules

Wow. Very straight up guy to come on here, take the flack and respond in a non-defensive classy way. Good on ya.

And to say the you regret and will not do it again well then there is really nothing more to say. Except. Good luck in the future and congrats on your first Kona.

What are you going to do? Make him swim 4000m daily, open water band pull beating him over the head with oars and swimming circles around him with a jet ski?

Great post Lionel! Love rooting for you.

Awesome post.

And it's very true, there aren't any shortcuts, and it isn't complicated. Swim every day, swim hard, swim with focus. Repeat, repeat, repeat.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

The other scenarios are addressed in the current IM rules:
Section2.02 OUTSIDEASSISTANCE
(a) Assistance provided by Race Referees or Race Officials is allowed but such assistance is limited to: providing drinks, nutrition, mechanical and medical assistance, and other necessary assistance (as may be approved by the Event Director or Head Referee). Athletes competing in the same Race may assist each other with incidental items such as, but not restricted to: nutrition and drinks after an aid station and pumps, tires, inner tubes, and puncture repair kits; and
(b) Athletes may not provide any item of equipment to an athlete competing in the same Race if it results in the donor athlete being unable to continue with his/her own Race. Such equipment includes but is not restricted to: shoes, complete bicycle, frame, wheels, or helmet. The penalty for this will be disqualification of both athletes.

Wow .... I don't normally respond in these forums but awesome to see Lionel be so upfront with that response. Totally agree I don't the pacing helped his swim at all.

FWIW I thought it was a great 1st up performance in Kona, a 2:54 marathon is a very solid effort on a tough run day. A 5-6 min faster swim (which I'd think would be easily attainable) puts him in firmly in Top 5-10 territory particularly as he'll be cycling in a group rather than on his own.

I'm unimpressed with shep here. The front guys have earned others to swim with. You want people to swim with...get faster. It's that simple in my eyes. Sounds like Lionel sees that now.

Yeah, I will give you another kudos for coming on here. I used to think what Nike Oregon Project was/is doing was fine but have progressed. Transparency, especially that quickly is something to look for. You know there are dopers out there and other types of cheats so the competition is tough and unfair and you already have a chip on your shoulder. Good luck next year.

I'm curious how you figure the swim was 3 mins slower for pointy end pro's? *Maybe* 1min slower but 50 mins is a pretty standard swim for the leaders in Kona these days. I don't ever recall seeing the lead swim pack exit in the high 47 / low 48's (a few outliers maybe but that's it). I think Potts might have swum a high 49 a few years back but I'm sure most years he's out in around 50 mins.

I'm unimpressed with this particular decision, partly because of what you write, but mostly because it's a really shitty strategy. It's one thing to find a guy who will swim at the pace you want and say, "let's swim together". If the guy you are swimming with has to slow down though, it's really hard to maintain that balance between too fast and fast enough.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Lionel - As others have said, we appreciate your being a stand-up guy about this. If anyone in Canada can get you seriously faster, jonnyo is indeed the man. Good luck with working on your swim, swimming is hard but it is great fun when you're really moving. When i'm really swimming well, i feel a great sense of power:)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Trying to police this is challenging. Think about it in the AG context where the stakes are not high, but I know the people who are going to swim under 30 in 70.3 races.

I try to line up with them and get my free ride saving around 3 minutes and feeling nice and fresh. It's no different to what sanders did except he had the decency to ask for the ride.

I've been off to the Green Beach for the day and finally had the chill out time my wife and I needed after a long ITU + Ironman season.

The swim partner concept grew out of watching what the elite guys in the front benefit from, without having to organize anything. Based on skill on Saturday, Dylan hammered the swim and Andy and Jan would get the benefit. Similarly about 20 others would gain the same benefits in the draft of the main chase pack of the swim. Knowing that very few athletes would likely be as novice in the ocean as Lionel was, I looked to evaluate all options that were available.

One option was simply swim on his own and get ready for the Ironman bike and run. Anticipated gap was 9-10 minutes (perhaps a bit better in the perfect day and worse if the conditions were harsher). I approached Lionel with the idea of a swim partner. He was on the fence on the idea, as he loves to do it all himself and I respect that. I believed it had a chance of helping him take the 8-10 min deficit down by another few minutes and put him closer to other rides on the 180km (rather then the virtual 180km he rode solo himself).

We inquired whether there were any rules against it (and if there were it would be a non-starter). The reality was there were no rules against it, because its occurring all day long in the swim, and impossible to scrutinize with 2000+ people in the small swim area. I am sure its been used before by better swimmers in modest size packs.

There were very few people who were likely candidates. 3/4's of the field were focused on Kona and would not be prepared to give up a second in the swim (and I understood that). 8-10 of the guys swim basically Lionel's speed anyway, so there was no assurances they could help him swim any straighter or faster. Matt Charbot was a great choice for a number of reasons. He had already emptied the tank in his Ironman two weeks before, so obviously would not be going for the podium in Kona. I knew Matt, knew his swim skills and when I approached him with the idea he was intrigued. Matt has raced ITU format for years and has both been the benefactor of a support person on the bike in ITU races and has likely helped others as well.

Matt did everything we could have asked on race day (then went onto bike and run a very solid day himself on very tired legs). Matt's a class guy and I appreciated him helping another young athlete when it wasn't Matt's day to shine. As Lionel's coach, I take full responsibility for evaluating a tactic to see if it had any value and convincing him to try it. In the end, my gut feeling is Lionel would have swam the same speed or faster (he was 11 min down out of the water) and has come out of the water numerous times with some of the guys who were 1-3 min ahead of him on Saturday.

Lionel and I know that he has to place more emphasis on improving his open water swimming and his opening 200m swim speed for the future. It's that simple. Lionel simply was not swimming world championship swimming speed in an ocean, without a wetsuit and we knew it had a modest chance of working, but it was the World Championships and you need to look at every aspect of the day that you can improve and influence (nutrition, equipment, aerodynamics, heat preparation) and in his case swim deficit.

Knowing what I know now, I would have simply suggested Lionel find the fastest slow guys he could find and stay on them all swim. I made an attempt to minimize his obvious deficit in the water, with a strategy that was allowed under the rules, and it didn't work out. I am sure faster, more competent swimmers have (and will) use it more effectively to their benefit. For now, Lionel simply needs to improve his swimming in both the pool & open water so that his world-class bike and run skills can be more properly displayed.

It was an honour to watch the incredible skills that the top 8-10 men displayed on Saturday. The reason they call it a WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS is that you have to come with the complete package. Clearly we were ready to compete in 2 of the 3 legs and have 363 days to be ready for Kona 2016. I know Lionel's tenacity and he will have the full package by the time we come back in 2016.

For now, I simply see the failed swim support strategy as the perfect reason why you have to be world-class in all three sports if you want to compete for the podium in Kona. The top 10 men had the full package and they illustrated it on Saturday. We did not. We will get the work done over the winter to be able to be on more equal footing next year. Kudos to the great athletes who populated both the men's and women's field.

Regards
Barrie Shepley
Coach & Support to Lionel Sanders

Lionel already said all that with half the words.

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________
It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

Cut Barrie some slack please. He's just coming on here and taking some ownership of the entire strategy. It's not often that we see coaches doing that, so no need to beat up on him for contributing something. By all means, discuss his content, but having him participate is actually a benefit for all of us.

I agree 100%. It's a privilege that these guys come on here to discuss their thoughts/strategies with us. No need to be a douche back at them when they are giving us what we want, an explanation straight from the horse's mouth

Thx Barrie & Lionel, I for one appreciate you guy's coming on here and explaining what went down on Saturday. I don't believe anything you tried to accomplish on Saturday has not been tried before and will be tried again.

Has anyone presented the idea of working with Gary Hall and his crew down at the Race Club? Is it a matter of logistics / Cost / to me they appear to run a top notch facility with great expertise. For a guy so close to breaking through, I figure it's time to go to the top for swim instruction.

While I appreciate you addressing the matter head on and your final point, I'm still not willing to give you a pass. You regret it because it was wrong or you regret it because it didn't work?

If you can swim 59 without assistance, I would bet you could swim 55 sitting on someone's feet who is swimming steady at a 55 min pace. Does coming out of the water 6 minutes faster change your day and have an impact on the overall race? Absolutely.

If you catch the main pack, maybe Jan knows you can run with him, so he burns matches to drop you on the bike and blows up on the run. Or maybe Sebi sits on your wheel as you go past and conserves enough to run 2:48 and win.

If you were going to execute this strategy, you should have at least gotten an advantage from it. The result is that you lost credibility (and me as a fan for whatever little that is worth) and didn't benefit in the race.

Back to my first response: if you are going to cheat, you better win

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/kj

http://kjmcawesome.tumblr.com/

If I wrote or interpreted the rule book, this would not be an allowable action. I don't write or interpret the rule book so my opinion carries little legal weight. But as head referee, Jimmy Riccitello, does. So having cleared this strategy with the officials I see absolutely no reason to question the ethics of having Lionel paced in the swim.

In my mind however the problem is that the rules of triathlon in general are immature. When I read usa swimming's rule book or the usga's rules of golf, there is far less vagueness. These rule books (especially golf) are sometimes hard to read but have evolved over years to account for situations that were not anticipated when the rules were first written. Hopefully this situation will be either clarified in a new wording of the rule, or in an officially documented "rule interpretation."

Respect to both you and Lionel for owning the mistake.

Since I spend my races sitting on people's toes (there's no way around that, literally) I can't criticise. Good luck with the next year of training and racing!

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'It never gets easier, you just get crazier.'

If you ask the head official if it's cool to do something, and the head official says it's cool, then it isn't cheating. They asked jimmy r, and he said fine, go ahead.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

This is dumb, there really was no mistake made. I think if you guys are going to apologize for anything you should apologize for not drafting off someone who swims faster than you typically would on your own (I know Matt typically would). If anyone thinks this is cheating, then don't ever cheer for the Brownlee's or any other ITU athlete who works in groups. Drafting even occurs within swimming events with lane lines & is something distance swimmers are taught to use to their advantage at a young age. We can't be expected to race in a vacuum.

You could also look at this as training for Sanders. You hope that one day he catches that 1st or 2nd pack, but because of his background he's probably not going to be leading these packs ever. He's going to have to learn to swim behind or next to someone, but at this stage he's almost always by himself and not able to practice this necessary skill. He just practiced swimming on someone's hip in a race situation (THE race situation), which is going to be a requirement for him in the future to win. This is definitely a plus, regardless of the final time. But I'm a bit of an optimist.

3 things:

Move to wherever that Jonnyo guy is and eat, drink & sleep that PAIN you felt when you get out in 1:01.

Then get hooked up in the Velodrome STAT. We need to know how you can improve the bike.

Let me know if you need a homestay for IM AZ. I can help you out there.

Totally agree with this...but I wonder what conversations other pros will have with Jimmy about the fairness of this strategy and the degree that it be refereed? That's the group that has the most to win and lose here.

I don't think there is really much to be gained by getting a considerably faster swimmer to slow down for you. They'll find it difficult to set an accurate pace (it isn't like you can get accurate splits), and you can't really communicate faster/slower very well in the water.

The real strategy is to find someone who is a little faster than you, and hang on their feet for dear life. Which is no different from the status quo. Maybe you agree to swim near someone who is similar speed, so you know you'll get a draft rather than hope you get one. But it really is pretty much what happens now.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

I can't resist...

Have either of you ever been convicted of a felony?

Convicted? Nooooo... Never convicted... (one of my favorite lines - though the abandoning one is great too.) RIP HR (aka Russell Zitsky). if you ever see me laughing during a hard track workout, I'm likely thinking about Stripes, Caddyshack, Animal House or Office Space. Laughter kills some of the pain.

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I saw this on a white board in a window box at my daughters middle school...
List of what life owes you:
1. __________
2. __________
3. __________

There was some discussion in pro golf years ago about having the field anonymously vote on a ruling in the event it fell into a rare grey area. Nothing ever came of it but, IMO, it's a good idea.

Sebastian Kienle has a fantastic photo and commentary on his Facebook page of him "receiving assistance" from Andreas Raelart in the form of water being poured onto his back on the run. Is this a violation of the rule? Yes, but there's no way in hell his piers would vote to enforce it. In Lionel's situation the outcome might be very different.

"Sebastian Kienle has a fantastic photo and commentary on his Facebook page of him "receiving assistance" from Andreas Raelart in the form of water being poured onto his back on the run. Is this a violation of the rule? Yes, but there's no way in hell his piers would vote to enforce it."

i think the questions that answer most of these questions are:

1. did the racer giving support obviously abandon his own race ambitions, throwing his efforts toward another?
2. is it much, much, much more likely than not that the aid was premeditated?

you don't need #2, but if you have both 1 and 2 i think it's clear that one person is getting aid of the sort no one else in the race is getting. in your example, i don't think either 1 or 2 were violated.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I'm curious how you figure the swim was 3 mins slower for pointy end pro's? *Maybe* 1min slower but 50 mins is a pretty standard swim for the leaders in Kona these days. I don't ever recall seeing the lead swim pack exit in the high 47 / low 48's (a few outliers maybe but that's it). I think Potts might have swum a high 49 a few years back but I'm sure most years he's out in around 50 mins. //

I guess you have not watched many of these swims. Potts is like a metronome, almost always swims a 48+ on normal days, did a 47+ on someones feet one year. Unless he decides to just swim in the pack(i think he did that one year), he is a 48 guy. Wolfgang Deittrich was the same exact type of athlete, also swam 48's just about every year the swim was normal, which is almost always. The guy leading the swim was actually a better swimmer than Potts, at least good enough for him to never come around and take a pull. They started hard, broke the back of all the other great swimmers, and there was a ferocious sprint for the swim prime at the end, all elements of a hard fought swim. The guy that won the swim usually swims 44 in wetsuit swims and crushes the fields, so him drilling it for the swim prime should have put him in the 47's somewhere. Since Potts and Frodo where right with him, they too get my benefit of at least a 48 flat or so.

Now when you get to the slower swimmers, the delta will get a bit larger. I suspect that it was a side/head current for a lot of the swim, that is what usually leads to slower swims overall, and keeps bigger packs together with guys in them that usually don't make the cut. There was a glaring example of this the year Norman Stadler won and was in the lead pack in the swim, something he had never done before, or after. Im thinking this is what assisted Keinle to be in that group too, although he certainly has improved his swim. I just don't believe on a neutral swim course he would have made the cut on this day, but when there is head current, it allows others to follow that normally could not.

So thats how i figure it, and also, the lead group(not the off the front guys, but first big main group), almost always swims 50 flat to 51. I suspect this lead group was closer to the 50 flat or just under range considering who was in it.

I live about 2 hours from Jonnyo and we have a few athletes who spend time in Penticton, we (basically Jonny) organized a group "extra" workout on BC long weekend a week after Whistler.

The choice is mathematical load in the pool�.IE a bunch of workouts on your own with no eyes or an OW workout 3X week with eyes and a fun group on you and always a focus on strategy and technique�.

He basically incorporates a focus of "intensity plus strategy" in the OW, IE same as the pool�he will measure out various intervals with buoys etc and do intervals, but always perhaps an extra focus on strategy, I only swam once but a few athletes have swam a bit with him while there.

And of course, there is a little rest period�.filled with smart as comments to some of his regular crew�.he is nicer to "new" people ;-)

Maurice

Slowman, what you quoted here are USAT rules, not IM rules, which are actually as follows:
Section 2.02 OUTSIDE ASSISTANCE
(a) Assistance provided by Race Referees or Race Officials is allowed but such assistance is limited to: providing drinks, nutrition, mechanical and medical assistance, and other necessary assistance (as may be provided by the Event Director or Head Referee). Athletes competing in the same Race may assist each other with incidental items such as, but not restricted to: nutrition, and drinks after an aid station and pumps, tires, inner tubes, and puncture repair kits; and
(b) Athletes may not provide any item of equipment to an athlete competing in the same Race if it results in the donor athlete being unable to continue his/her own Race. Such equipment includes but is not restricted to: shoes, complete bicycle, frame, wheels, or helmet. The penalty for this will be disqualification of both athletes.

Section 2.01 states that athletes must
(a) practice good sportsmanship at all times
(h) compete without receiving assistance from other parties (other than from Race Referees, Race Officials, and other athletes in accordance with Section 2.02
(j) not gain or attempt to gain any unfair advantage from any external vehicle or object.

So my take on Lionel's drafting off Chabrot is this:
He attempted to gain an unfair advantage, but since Chabrot was not an external vehicle or object, I think the only rule he may have violated is 2.01 (a), for which neither Section 2.01 nor Article III. PENALTIES specifies the penalty. The Appendix, however, specifies for unsportsmanlike behaviour a DSQ and potential suspension.
Had he gained an unfair advantage from an external vehicle (and violated 2.01 (j)), then the rule doesn't even specify the penalty for that (unlike 2.01 (i), (k) or (l)), such that in accordance with 3.01(f) the penalty would have been up to the referee's discrection.

In any case I greatly appreciate Lionel's statement here on ST expressing regret for his decision, and I think this was very sportsmanlike such that for me the case is closed.

However, Lionel as well as every other athlete competing, was in violation of rule 2.01 (c), according to which each athlete must
know, understand, and follow all Competition Rules, as stated herein, in the Event-specific Athlete Information Guide, and at the Event-specific athlete briefings.

It would be good for the sport of triathlon to come up with a set of proper, consistent and well thought through rules. Current rule books (whether IM, ITU, USAT or other national federations) are full of self-contradictions, unclear wordings, unnecessary or just plain non-sensical rules. These rules could be split into two parts, a slim body of general rules which apply to the sport of triathlon, and then some additional rules specific to each event.

---

Achim Traut

 ups for some reason did not see the above post


http://www.triathlon.org/...es_december20141.pdf

page 7 2.2

Outside assistance:
a.)
The assistance provided by event personnel or Technical
Officials is allowed but is
limited to
providing
drinks, nutrition, mechanical and medical assista
nce, upon the
approval of the Technical Delegate or Race Referee
. Athletes competing in the
same race may assist each other with incidental items such as
,
but not restricted
to,
nutrition and drinks after a water station and pumps, tubular tires, inner tubes
and puncture repair kits
;
b.)
Athletes may not provide any item of equipment to an athlete competing in the
same race which results in the donor athlete bei
ng unable to continue with their
own race. This includes but is not restricted to shoes, complete bicycle, frame,
wheels and helmet. The penalty for this will be disqualification of both athletes

Yes, I've extended that invite already.

---

@rhyspencer

overall the problem in this thread is we have real issues like drafting and drugs
And focus on the " miniscule" stuff.


if we discuss outside assistance i would suggest we find a way to make it real world ( great Solomon that you would have given the guy a cartridge despite its against the current rules as this should be allowed as the athelte already has lost time - in this case a puncture -


with the drafting incident in the water from my understanding there is nothing illegal
and i think we are really in very difficult terrain when we talk aobut sportsmanship here

the current drafting rules provide assistance to the rider the current, swim rules provide assistance and both rules in a way punish the fastest in each sport.
so we really have an problem when we try to claim this is an unassited sport .
not even talking about power meter . That technically speaking are a pacing guide.

Am trying to understand the issue now.

The rules state if you have a question, you ask the head official. If they say something is okay, it is legal.
They asked, the HO said it was legal, and they did it.

So, what is the issue? Oh I know, it is not what the rules say, it is what folks think the rules should say. :)

---

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

So what about two athletes running together and supporting each in the late miles of an Ironman marathon? What if they decided to finish together since they bonded over the last X number of miles? Is that against the rules?

Bob

Let's say your strategy had succeeded and Lionel benefited by a few minutes in the swim from having a domestique. And after his superb, domestique-assisted swim, went on to uber-bike and uber-run and came home World Champion. How do you think his victory would have been received given the ostensibly legal but very dodgy tactic of hiring a swim domestique? My opinion is that this is not the way for Lionel to keep/grow his cult fanbase nor to earn respect from his pro peers. It all seems very ill-advised to me.

Re: Jonnyo swim group. last spring I was 1:23 per 100 in pool off on 1:40....push my luck I could do 10 like that on 1:30. Summer in the lake and came back pool...1:18s with 10sec Gap not 5 on swimmer ahead.

Now I've only done 3 swims since IM Wales so that's dropping the wrong direction now! But a factoid that hard open water group sets chasing faster athletes work.

Lionel can chase Sean Bechtel up there with Barrie and should get on that fast or spend a summer block here IMO.

As for this thread....Jesus ST needs to get over itself. Who cares? They asked head ref & he said fine. And frankly this was happening far more than people think in years gone by. . I mean Beijing Canada picked Colin Jenkins over Brent McMahon for this EXACT reason.

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@rhyspencer

This mistake was trying it in the first place. It was a desperate strategy and was likely never going to work. Lionel has very little experience drafting and Matt probably has no experience aiding a (much) slower swimmer. Both are hard to do, especially when experience is limited.

Lionel is a world class athlete. He is either satisfied being a mediocre swimmer (doubt it) or has not been given the tools and instruction to succeed as a swimmer. The suggestions that this swim should be graded on a curve are poor attempts to veil the absolute lack of improvement in the past 14 months in Lionel's swim. I would like to know how he is being guided through this process. I cannot believe that Mike McWha would have given a stamp of approval to this...

If it worked out I would have saluted both the athlete and coach for choosing an appropriate strategy that helped their race and was within the rules. Name one sport in the world that a coach wouldn't try to maximize the outcome as long as it is within the rules?

"So what about two athletes running together and supporting each in the late miles of an Ironman marathon?"

asked and answered. see "slowman doctrine."

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

"Slowman, what you quoted here are USAT rules, not IM rules"

these rules are cumulative, not either/or, unless ironman got specific permission from USAT to have a USAT rule not apply. example: not all helmets have to be CPSC-certified in kona. that's a specific rule abatement.

i've sent a note off to jimmy about this. you might be right that the USAT rule is not applicable, but my guess is that it is applicable, and ironman's rules are lopped on top, as a second rule that must be followed as well.

in any case, we'll see what he says. whatever the interpretation is will be how it is the rules work going forward.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

clearly Andreas is sabotaging Sebastian by adding weight in the form of water to Sebby's suit and water in the shoes causing blisters, both of which caused him to slow down and get 8th.

---

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Where does that leave Chrissie W. and Rebeka Keat? Given that Rebeka donated two cartridges to help out when CW flatted, wouldn't one or both of them be in violation of the rule as it's written here?

I'm also not sure that the rule has "always" been the way it's phrased in 3.4.d... I'm going off memory, but at my first couple of IM races (late 90's?), I had thought that a distinction was drawn between spectators and competitors. If not, where does the verbal agreement between Rukosuev and Bernhadt during IMF 2001 fall?

Alec Rukosuev and Olivier Bernhard, both feared runners, exited their bikes together and commenced pursuit after eventual Ironman Florida champ Jamie Cleveland. After six miles of back-and-forth racing they settled into a pace, each using the other's energy.

Rukosuev recounts a philosophical conversation he was having with himself at mile-15. "Sport is sometimes unfair." said Rukosuev, "Especially an Ironman. You're not racing, but surviving. It occured to me right then that it would be, in a way, a shame to spend so much time working alongside a fellow competitor, with so much shared energy, only to have one prevail in a finishing sprint. That's what I was thinking."

It was almost precisely at that moment that Bernhardt -- a two-time winner of Ironman Switzerland -- looked over and asked, "Do you want to tie?"

"On other occasions I'd perhaps have said no." recalled Rukosuev, "But in that frame of mind I accepted. We shook hands, right there on the road. We agreed that whatever happened, win or lose, we'd do it together."

They were two-minutes behind Cleveland at that point. The pace picked up. At mile-19 they were one-minute behind, or a little less. The Swiss racer asked Rukosuev how he was feeling. "Great, let's go get him." Shortly afterward Bernhard cramped. He stopped dead in the road.

"I waited for him," said Rukosuev. "We had a deal. We shook. I waited while he stretched. Then we continued on, now two-minutes down. I still thought we could catch Jamie. Then Bernhard stopped again. I waited again. The lead was now four-minutes as we stood on the road. Finally I told him we can't wait any longer. I asked him if I could go on."

Rukosuev continued on to a second-place finish. Bernhard never made it past mile-22. There is no sense of what might have been in Rukosuev's voice, and he is gracious in his praise of Cleveland. Bernhard apologized to Rukosuev after the race, but the Russian immigrant -- awaiting his American citizenship -- seems to shake it off. "He would have waited for me." -- DE

"Where does that leave Chrissie W. and Rebeka Keat?"

Slowman Doctrine. (read thread)

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

The rules cannot be cumulative since they contradict each other. In any case, despite our efforts to read and understand the rules the bottom line is the following:

• None of us is quite sure which rules are appliccable.
• Even if we knew which rules apply, we still wouldn't be sure what exactly each rule is supposed to mean.

Frankly, triathlon should be a fairly simple sport, but the mess that all existing rules create is just crazy.

---

Achim Traut

Can someone enlighten me on Lionel's Pool times vs Open water times? I mean, I consider myself to be a huge Fan/Supporter of Lionel, but to me it appears as though his pool times are not nearly fast enough either. Thus, he might be well served to continue to work/develop that technique along with Open Water skills.

I posed the question earlier on Cost / Logistics of jumping in with the likes of Gary Hall Sr, Greg Troy, David Durden, Heck Bob Bowman for crying out loud... then tack on Gerry Rodrigues or someone to help with the open water skills. I fully understand that these guy's are insanely busy and you just don't walk off the street and hop in the pool with these guy's, but Lionel does have a resume and good connections with Barrie et al.

You finish 4th at the 70.3 World's, you are knocking on the door of the Ironman World Championships if you could put together a decent swim. Wouldn't you go right to the top?? Time to re-focus and get the swim figured out or he never wins Kona.

You're based out of Ontario, right? No need to travel far to get world class help with the swim. Go talk to Byron MacDonald at UofT. The guy knows more about swimming than this entire forum combined. He might not have a spot for you, but he'll have some ideas on who might be a good fit.

---

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"None of us is quite sure which rules are applicable."

when as part of my race preparation i arrange in advance with somebody to help me, pull me, pace me - said person abandoning his own race ambitions to help pull me to a faster finish - he and i are conspiring to break the rules, both the letter and the spirit, both sets of rules, all sets of rules.

there is nothing about this that isn't, or shouldn't be, clear. lionel, to his credit, understood this originally, got talked into something and now in retrospect, with the help of some additional voices, is listening to his original gut instinct.

whether ironman also interprets this the way i do (and lionel apparently now does) remains to be seen.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

For the last 3 coaches it would be a disruption both ways. Off the top of my head the only elite swim coach I think that would work with him is Paul Yetter. Because I think he likes doing 1 on 1 work.

The week before my 8th birthday in 1984 I was at a summer league swim meet when I discovered that I actually have some talent for the sport. Me and the best 8 year old from the other team handily beat all the other 7-8 year olds at that meet. That other 8 year old was... David Durden!

True enough!! It sounds like he has the background to pull something like this off and he is right under Lionel's nose. Which I'm sure would cut down on costs.

However, if you want to beat the likes of Frodeno / Gomez and eventually the Brownlee's you better not let $$ dictate your swim instructor. Get the best right now!!! It won't get any easier with age and that talent coming behind you.

Thank you Coach and Lionel. You both have my respect.

Well, cost is always a consideration, but Byron is amongst the best, and more importantly, he's accessible and knows everyone in Ontario swimming who is worth knowing. IMO, connecting with one of the "supercoaches" is near worthless for what Lionel needs, which aren't the quick fixes (he's way past that level) and aren't the tiny adjustments that matter in the pool that might gain a half second. I'd go to those guys if I was at a pretty high level, but plateaued, then it might be really useful.

Consistency is key. Better to get in with someone who has the skill and knowledge, but can also be there every day / week / month....

---

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Glad to see some of these names being tossed out!! Paul Yetter etc. Which is kinda where I was going with my comment and choices. Just trying to get a feel for why someone would not seek out some of these Coaches when you are so close to the top in the other 2 disciplines. I for sure don't know the answer but many top level swimmers / coaches on ST might :)


Would love to hear Barrie's thoughts on it as well. :)

Since Chrabot was bascially cooked from his IMChoo performance two weeks' prior, who's to say his "own race ambition" wasn't to pull Lionel through the swim and collect a chunk of his prize money. I get all this "spirit of the sport" stuff, but top level sport is made from folks pushing the envelope. I'm sure the first guy to show up with aerobars or hang in the "legal distance" draft pack all drew some hate from their competitors. Successful tactics to get an edge that work (and this one didn't) will either be outlawed as unfair or copied. In the meantime, game on.

I guess many will need to rethink this now with the Du and Tri Sprint DL races. I was not able to race the DL race Sunday so I helped. Boy were folks having fun using tactics, starting at the swim, to try and get out
of the water fast to get a, let alone the best, draft pack for the bike. Everyone I talked to after the race had a great time. I need to now get a road bike so I can consider doing some DL races next season.

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

"who's to say his "own race ambition" wasn't to pull Lionel through the swim and collect a chunk of his prize money."

i'm pretty sure you know what it is i'm saying. when your goal - once the race commences - is to help someone else finish higher rather than to finish as high as you can, that's what i'm talking about by "race ambition."

look, there is my view of the world, there is everyone else's view of the world. i'm not saying mine is the only way. yes, i will be disappointed if this race falls to the point where i can hire somebody to pull me to the finish, like hiring someone to tether me up everest. but maybe i'm just an old fuddy-duddy. i've got a pretty tight view of fidelity, whether it's in marriage, business or racing. i don't think my view needs to be everybody's view.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

And you wonder why lawyers get a bad rap!

---

/kj

http://kjmcawesome.tumblr.com/

Good Point Jason, concerning the Super Coaches!! I agree, he should not be looking for those last few subtle technique changes that can give him a few seconds. We are talking a 6-7 minute improvement on an Ironman swim.

I'm also wondering what's gone wrong so far with the guy's he has chosen? They appear to be guy's that know what they are doing and have some lofty resumes. Lionel is for sure not shy about putting in the work, what gives???

Any comments on Gary Hall Sr. I think they post here on ST??

Everyone take a deep breath. In order for Lionel to be a GREAT triathlete, he does not need to be a GREAT swimmer. He doesn't need to make Olympic trials in the 200IM. He just needs to be able to swim as well as a halfway decent 16 year old swimmer.

He obviously has the engine and is a good athlete. Maybe he has an aptitude for swimming and just needs more time in the pool. Maybe he is good in the pool but sucks in the open water. Maybe he just has no aptitude for swimming and should quit the sport.

What he doesn't need is to be able to swim the 1500 in in14:31.

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/kj

http://kjmcawesome.tumblr.com/

Agree'd!! My point was mainly that what he is doing is either not working or requires a ton more time. Also possible that he currently has the wrong Swim coach. If you are going to make the effort of recruiting a pace swimmer for IM Kona, then go all the way and get the best coach available to avoid this in the future.

It's entirely possible that all of the guy's listed so far would not be a great fit either. I just figured that if you are at Lionel's level, then just try and get the best Coach to help guide the process. Also, don't be afraid to leave the region. The Woodlands seem to be doing well with Hansen / Beals / Csoke as a training base. Maybe Lionel needs something similar...

He doesn't need a 14:31 1500m but he for sure needs something better then 1:01 this past weekend. So finding 7-8 min of improvement, shouldn't be left to just anyone.

Ironman is actually even more specific.

Section 2.02 OUTSIDE ASSISTANCE
(a) An athlete may not subordinate his/her race ambitions solely for the benefit of another athletes race ambitions. The penalty for this will be disqualification of both athletes; (DSQ of both athletes)


Originally from: http://www.ironman.com/...s.aspx#ixzz3oTELgCA7

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2015-50:56
14-50:56
13- DNS
12-50:32
11- 49:44
10- 48:48
09- 47:45
08- 48:40

I wouldnt exactly say that is a metronome for 48....Looks like he sat in the pack for more than one year, or isnt quite dead on 48 every year but once like you implied.
I would split the diff between your 3 min time and the other posters 1 min time. Maybe.......

Clearly Andy Potts has FINALLY figured out that winning the swim does him no good. I also think he finally stopped eating like a All-American swimmer last year as well.

both of these things bode well for AP and, factoring in TO and BH recent performances, an American winning Kona again someday.

Now, if we could just get him a bike that fits, a session at the Velodrome, and riding outside ;)

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
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I wouldnt exactly say that is a metronome for 48....Looks like he sat in the pack for more than one year, or isnt quite dead on 48 every year but once like you implied.//

When i say 48, i mean 48+. One of his slower swims there was also a very slow year, like this one. And I do not just use andy to handicap how the hawaii swim went, as I stated earlier, there were other guys to gauge how it went out there. Why don't you add in the guy that won the swim and take a look at his times(believe this would be his slowest by far) And take a look at Frodo's swims too, pointy end ITU swimmer like Andy was. For those guys to be going as hard as they were, pretty much drilling it the whole way, it was at least a 48 flat effort with normal swimming conditions. And keep in mind that all of Andy's 48+ swims were solo off the front, and his one 47+ was drafting a very fast swimmer, just exactly like this race. I think in the past several years he has decided to just sit in, but if there is a guy that is super fast, he will sit in on that guy. If not, then it is just the lead pack pace he will end up with..


And take a look at Eric's gal who swims 8;20+ for the 800LCM free in the AG race, 52 flat I believe, 3 minutes ahead of the best pro woman, so a very solid and fast swim, just not in time(considering the womens record of 48+ and several who have gone 49 over the years. So everything i see points to it being around 3 minutes slow, its ok if you don't agree.

Given this, why would Jimmy Riccetello indicate to Shepley that his proposed plan was OK?

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Eric, do we need to go to Andy's front door and brow beat him into a consulting session with Eric Reid, the guy "who will put you in the bike pack with Frodo?"

I will say that swim times are not comparable day-to-day. There have been other athletes that have gone a good 5-7 minutes faster during the practice swim. I have talked to those athletes and we have come to the conclusion it is the results of two things:

1) The swim is not an all out life or death sprint for the first 400. Pushing so hard comes back to haunt you for the rest of the swim.
2) There are less people on race day to swim with if you get dropped by first and second group.

It is impossible to assess what would happen, but I am guessing you were at least 5-6 minutes with Chrabot. If you were really truly on his hip than you were getting and incredible draft. Hip drafting is incredibly tough. The few times I have actually hip drafted in a pro race I have been nearly knocked out by a pissed off pro or they do something else specifically to make sure I don't stay there. Chrabot being instructed to swim for you would change that all.

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It actually is very different situation. In a race you know you have to find the feet and if you lose them they might never come again - it is very stressful. In this situation, there is no pressure to find feet because you have feet that have been instructed to wait for you.

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jest if you must, but over the years the ST hive mind has been right more than not regarding these things.

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
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I am not kidding. Most of the time, top end age groupers know more than many pros, because they are less genetically gifted to overcome stupid speed reducing errors and can't afford to squader free speed that is there for the taking. Pros who win all the time might think it is all overrated. Certainly Andy with his swim buffer and run speed can win a ton of non Kona caliber races and feel he is got it all nailed....until he can't give away those watts and ends up 4th rather than 1-3 in Kona. But based on the response to Tim DeBoom, he does not sound like he cares that much about Kona being the most important day of the year.

Dev

Very Smart man.

Since he trains most of the time on his trainer, you will not see him having to deal with injuries caused by an accident with a car.

Very Smart man.

.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Might be nothing wrong with Barrie as a coach, sometimes an athlete just needs a change to someone with a fresh perspective. It might be that Barrie is the guy who needs to go talk to Gary Hall, or Byron, or Dave Marsh, or whomever. I'm sure he talks to other coaches all the time, but maybe not about Lionel specifically? Just speculating at this point.

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Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Guesstimating that Potts and Frodo can prob still swim say 16:30 for 1500 lcm, then Lionel would need to be around 17-ish. The USAS AAA time in the 1500 lcm for a 16-yr old boy is 17:35 and the AAAA time is 16:47, or in scy 16:24 and 17:10. So, while you may think of a AAA level swimmer as just "half-way decent", i think that might be a bit of an overly harsh characterization. Prob you were exaggerating but still i think we should be somewhat realistic.

Of course, i don't know what Potts can swim right now for the 1500 lcm but his time at the '96 Trials at age 19 was 15:38.06, which placed him 9th, missing the final by 0.02 sec. Just for the record, his 400 free was 3:58.4. So, i'm guessing he can still swim within 50-ish sec of his best 1500 time, but i could be off base. Ajthomas or others may have more "inside scoop".

In any case, Lionel is prob swimming around 20-21 min for 1500 right now and needs to get down to 17-ish, which is a huge jump.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Key word being "solely"

what?!?!??! i'm like the worst swimmer in the world and at my last half iron i swam 1300 yards in 21 mins. is LS only 200 yards faster than me in the same amount of time? that seems really really off.

This issue may just be a great business model for x-pro's and/or "participation coaches". Not to cheat in a race or to break a rule getting an age grouper slot to Kona. I'm talking about a local race. Would I pay the entry fee and a fair wage to get someone like Rapp or an x-pro to pace me at my best ability on the swim and watch me through transitions, how I take my nutrition; my pace on the bike and run...hell yes. Once a year or a few months out before my "A" race.

I just got back from a mid-day swim scheduled for speed work. My masters coach was at the pool, jumped in and did the workout with me. I worked harder "smarter", I was paced better and got more out of the workout than if I had done it by myself. If someone like Rapp (if he knew me and knew my strengths and weaknesses as my coach) did something similar but for a hole race for me once a year....it would be a wonderful experience and great training tool. It would also help my coach - coach me.

Maybe some of these fast "coaches" could help slower AG clients by racing "pacing" with them. Nothing illegal just showing them how to race, pace, feed and get the most out of their ability.

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Dan Kennison

facebook: @triPremierBike
http://www.PremierBike.com
http://www.PositionOneSports.com

Dan and I are waiting to hear that from Jimmy.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Well, technically a half iron swim is 1900 m or 2100 yd, so if you only swam 1300 yds, then the swim in that race was very short. This is not at all uncommon in the tri world but generally the really big races like Kona have very accurately measured swims. What kind of times do you swim in the pool for an all-out 1500 m or 1650 yd??? Really, pool times are the only way to monitor progress since the length of any given pool does not vary from day to day:)

Also, note that the 20-21 min estimated LS time is for 1500 meters, or 1650 yds, so he's going about 350 yds, or about 27%, further in same time. Remember 1 meter = about 1.1 yds, roughly.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Couple things - I think you may be surprised how much slower Potts may be in the pool vs when he was presumably spending 20+ hrs/week just swimming. (No idea how much he swims now, but he should cut it in half and ride more.) Sanders doesn't need to be close to as fast as Potts/Frodo. He just needs to be able to hang on to the B+ pack and be giving up 5 minutes instead of 10+ minutes. The reason we think Sanders could be so great is because how strong of a cyclist and runner he is. And we have seen his lack of swim fitness force him to overcook the bike and not run to his potential multiple times this season.

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/kj

http://kjmcawesome.tumblr.com/

This is the part that is interesting to me.

I think a lot of us share a view which could fairly be summarized as:
- If I were the head ref, I would not interpret this plan as allowed and would consider it cheating, but...
- I am not the head ref, Jimmy R is, so...
- Since Jimmy R was consulted ahead of time and said it was ok...
- It was not cheating, despite it feeling somewhat distasteful.

I am very curious to hear Jimmy R's reasoning for why he pre-cleared this tactic.

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__________________________________________________
The plural of anecdote is not data. :-)
- Andrew Coggan

Based on what LS did in that time trial (1500 SCM in a speed suit in 19:40 ish) I would say you are about right -> in the 20 MID range for 1500LCM. I would say 16:30 seems reasonable for Andy too. So 4 minutes over 1500 M. Which comes out to about 10 MIN over 3800M. Which is howit played out... Realistically LS should shoot for being in that 2nd pack. He needs 3 seconds per 100M to get there. That is doable in 12 months.

Regarding the topic at hand: Did Matt Hanson and Micheal Weiss know about the strategy ahead of time too?

I am guessing he pre cleared the tactic since there is no way of truly enforcing that there is intentional pacing going on. As Jordan said, you can't look at the livestream coverage after the race or NBC coverage you have to use ref's on the ground during the race (in other word's unlike team sports where they can stop the game for instant replay, we can't stop the game for it, and we can retroactively change the game for after the game reply evidence)....I suppose they could have ref's in kayaks checking for pacers, but how do we know that Frodo and Potts did not cut a deal to swim together and put a gap on Kienle, just like Macca teamed up with Marino, Tissink, Faris, and Twelsiek (sp?) at Kona 2010 to put a big T2 gap on Crowie? How is what Macca did that much different? All those guys knew that Macca could likely outrun them, so they had given up hope for the win to play along with Macca. The question is did they completely give up their race ambitions or did they just play with Macca to get the highest podium placing possible. How do you know each man's intent? How does Jimmy enforce it?

Charbot, could have been pacing Lionel in exchange for some nice pacing on the bike (we know now that he was not, but on race day, how does Jimmy know what Chrabot's tactic is)? This is probably why he said, Lionel could go ahead because he has no way of knowing what tactics are going on in people's heads and as a ref he can't guess what they are planning to do next.

If this is true, he's well and truly screwing the pooch in races.

I too want to speculate how this all went down but I think it is best to wait and see what Dan etc uncover.

AJ - Not sure i'm following your math: if LS is roughly 4 min or 240 sec slower than AP right now over 1500 m, then that's 240/15 = 16 sec per 100 m. Even assuming he's just aiming to get in the 2nd pack, that pack is only about 2min back over 3800 m, or about 3 sec per 100 m slower than Potts et al. So, it would *appear* that LS would need to be roughly 13 sec per 100 m faster, not just 3 sec/100 m. Granted, drafting can make up some of that but still, I would think LS needs to improve around 10 sec/100 m to swim in that 2nd pack. Your thoughts???

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

whoops. didn't see the meter/yard difference.

my half iron was the proper distance. i just divided yards per minute then multiplied by 21 to see how far i would go in his time.

granted, now that i know it's meters, he's a lot faster than me. which is good, since he's a pro.

This makes no sense. Just because it is difficult to enforce does not make it within the rules. There is no drafting your car in RAAM, but it is not enforceable. Do you think if a rider were to contact RAAM ahead of time to ask whether he can draft his vehicle that they would say it is acceptable because they cannot enforce otherwise?

I think Jimmy R has some 'splainin to do as this tactic pretty clearly breaks Ironman's rule 2.02. For Sanders to have gotten permission ahead of time to do this really baffles me.
Section 2.02 OUTSIDE ASSISTANCE
(a) An athlete may not subordinate his/her race ambitions solely for the benefit of another athletes race ambitions. The penalty for this will be disqualification of both athletes; (DSQ of both athletes)

his swim time are inline with a 22:30 1500meter swimmer.

to swim front pack in hawaii with the main contender, a 18:30/1500meter and good open water skill is enough. That is real life data...

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

less about your 1500m time than 200m or 400m time. But yes, the times being thrown around are a bit crazy...

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

I am not speculating that he swam 1500scm in a speeds suit in 19:4X - I am recollecting

Well, maybe Jimmy's IM rules are different than yours. Here's what I found online as "Ironman 2015 COMPETITION RULES": http://www.ironman.com/...a28565a453f79c0.ashx
Look at Section 2.02, what you quoted as (a) is missing there...
I said it before, triathlon rules are in a state of complete and utter mess.

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Achim Traut

You need to look at the pro rules.

http://ap.ironman.com/...rship/pro-rules.aspx

Do I? My rules are from the IM webpage where it says "The official competition rules governing all IRONMAN and IRONMAN 70.3 events".
Clearly IM/WTC are doing an incredibly poor job in communicating the rules applying to their events.

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Achim Traut

You and me dont agree on that aspect.

That is a big part of what i teach....to kill this myth that 200-400 speed matter at ironman. If a swimmer as the steady state fitness...i can teach him the skills and strategy to swim front pack without having to start hard/fast. It is extremely important for a swimmer that is on the edge of missing the group to not start hard but at a very honest substainable pace with no fade. They cant afford to start hard.... They need superior open water skill...they need a high turnover swim stroke and they need to love playig the game in tight space..been hit and hitting back.

18:30 is 1:15min/100m that is a 2:30 200m opening and a 5min 400m opening. That is more than enough to be part of the long line of swimmers that will form the front group.

this year in kona....30+ guys were in the front group. At the 400m mark...that was already streatch out to 20-25m. That mean you could already accuse a 20sec deficit and still be part of the front group. It s what you do after that point that really matter. Because that initial acceleration by the front swimmers never last....the pace drop usually much before the 400m mark.

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

i m not sure i follow you? i was replying to eric.

but perhaps Lionel did swim a sub 20min once with a speed suit. Was that alone? with 4 other guys in the lane? rested? on a swim focus? i dont know....


but from looking at is swim performance this weekend, i douth that on oct 10th 2015.... he had sub 20min/1500m fitness in him because he would have been able to swim 56-57min alone without over exerting himself.

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

I think we disagree less than you think. The better you are as an open water swimmer, the slower you can be in the pool. But where I think you and I disagree is that somehow learning open water skill is somehow more guaranteed than learning skill in the pool.

We are each biased by our own experiences. You were a relatively slow pool swimmer - though I'd point out your fastest pool times were quite fast - who swam above his pool level thanks to good open water skill. On the flipside, I'm a very good pool swimmer who doesn't swim up to that level in open water.

I don't disagree that learning to swim a high stroke rate in rough water and with a lot of other people hitting you will allow you to achieve swim with swimmers who are much faster than you. What I disagree with is the idea that somehow that skillset is so much easier to achieve than fast 200/400 speed.

Both are skills. And both are a challenge to learn. And both are suited to different types of folks.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

"I thought Dan made up the term 'Subordinate his/her race ambitions' as his own opinion of what the rules should be. That is incorrect."

jimmy and i have had a lot of discussion about this over the years. i'm going to flatter myself into thinking that my phrasing on this might have insinuated themselve into the rules. whether or not that's true, everything i know about jimmy tells me that he and i think exactly the same about this. i'll be shocked if in the end we aren't perfectly aligned, notwithstanding what's been written higher up in this thread.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Agree with what you say in practice, but actual implementation is different. I don't think I have let a single gap open up in a very long time on the swim. What happens is someone else opens a gap that they don't close it and I can't close it. If you don't start out hard you are going to be around some swimmers who just don't have the ability to keep up and that is how you get hosed. Jordan has been trying to implement this in swimming this year with some degree of success, except he prefers to line up on outside. It worked out perfectly at IMMT for him easing into the effort and slotting in. It didn't work so well at Wildflower. Regardless OWS is a true art, an art that I think would be developed more by people who actual race more than a couple of times a year.

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"It worked out perfectly at IMMT for him easing into the effort and slotting in. It didn't work so well at Wildflower."

jordan's going to do better the weaker the field is. the problem is when some badass swims really fast, and somebody not that fast is nevertheless fast enough to swim on that badass's feet. and so on. the whole field goes out quicker. if you can't swim a 57sec 100scy off the wall you probably aren't going to make it to the 800m mark of the swim in the front pack.

jordan's perfect race style would be a streaming start. but i don't think the pros ever stream their starts, do they?

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Only race I know like that was the old Memphis In May race.

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I think we all need to take at least two steps back and re-evaluate the facts.

Lionel knew he was going to do this once he got on the bike:


So he pre-rewarded himself with a little "pacing" on the swim to prepare him for this absolute travesty later.
I'm pretty sure he went from a solid position to quite poor Age Grouper in the 40 seconds it took to strap that on under his race suit.

Bravo, coach.

Ya why arent more people talking about that? Absurd

How do you know it's absurd? Do you even know what the purpose was? It could have been for aerodynamics, body temperature (frozen camelback), both or something I am not thinking about.

Calm down. It's absurd that no one on ST is talking about it. Remember this is the place where people freak out over any little thing. Especially when it's dealing with a bike.

OK, sorry. Then it's not absurd since this thread was meant to discuss the topic of pacing on the swim. You are welcome to start a new thread to discuss the monkey he is carrying under his trisuit :)

Not really. If you can swim 25 100s on 1:25 at 1:01 or 1:00 on every repeat you make the first pack. Though this weekend you were in pack 1b ( the 3 guys are pack 1a). You have to be able to do that set all the time. Not when you are feeling great, only in the middle of a swim block, wearing a speed suit or whatever. That needs to be your go to pace. Hold 1:02/:03? Draft well and maybe you can hang on. 1:04 and you are in the next pack. And for whatever reason in this race that second pack didn't execute well as a collective. Maybe the wrong guys got in front and were allowed to sit in, or maybe all the 1:03 guys stayed in 1b leaving no one to drive the 2nd pack...

OK, i'm going to take a wild guess and say that a swimmer who can hold 1:01 for 25 x 100 scy on 1:25 as his/her go-to pace, could swim a 1650 scy in around 17:05-ish, i.e. holding 1:02s per 100 scy. This is about what i would think it would take, as a maximum time (e.g., 16:45 would make it easier), just to draft off of Potts et al.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

If you think that is for aerodynamics, you have a lot to learn. This was one of the stupidest things I have ever seen someone do for Kona. I can't believe his coach let him do that

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

" I can't believe his coach let him do that "

Maybe the coach did not know or maybe the coach told him to do it. Who knows? That's the point I was trying to make. Let's find out what the thinking was then we can discuss it.

I have all the respect in the world for Lionel Sanders. But since I have become part of the story � and since I feel that I (and Lionel) have been taken advantage of - here are my facts:

• I was never specifically asked if it was okay for Matt Chrabot to serve as a domestique in the swim for Lionel Sanders.
• I never told Coach Barrie Shepley that it was okay to have an athlete help Lionel in the swim.
• I do not approve of Coach Barrie�s idea to provide help for Lionel in the swim in the manner in which it appears it was done.
• Barry Siff sent me an email on Sept. 5 (below) asking a general question that I interpreted to mean can friends draft off each other in the swim.
• My answer to that question is apparently my permission for Lionel to have a domestique during the swim.
• Although outside assistance is � as evidenced by the discussions here on Slowtwitch � a tricky and nuanced issue, and my answer to Barry Siff was perhaps too casual and failed to dig further into the details - in my mind, my answer does not give permission for the scenario that Barrie Shepley and Barry Siff had in mind (Can I find someone to abandon his race ambitions in favor of helping Lionel in the swim?).
• If Barry and Barrie really wanted to know whether their plans were okay � they should have asked the direct question without being deceptive and devious.
• And yes, I'm a lot pissed off as I feel I have been set up and taken advantage of. I would like to think I can trust the intent behind emails I receive from my colleagues and friends.
• For the record, I believe that Lionel and Matt, based on what Barrie Shepley told them that I said, did not feel that they were breaking a rule.

From Barry Siff on Sept. 5, 2015:

Jimmy,

Hey man!

Question - just to be 100% certain: is it OK for someone to team up with another registered athlete in an Ironman, and draft off their feet for the entire swim?

I am quite certain it is � but, just want to be 100% sure. I was asked this by someone else, and need to be certain.

Thanks, man.

From Jimmy Riccitello:

Barry,

Definitely okay to swim �together.� Swim buddies are a cool think, in my book.

---

Jimmy
http://www.Riccitello.com

This certainly changes things.

We can go over this same argument again and again and again. I can assure you nobody talks to more pros about their own markers swimsets on a regular basis. Again, just tonight I spent a good 5 minutes talking to Frodeno about his swim to hopefully learn something to apply to future races. I can't do 25 100s on the 1:25 at 1:01, not even 1:03, not 1:04, yet I am 100% confident I would have come out ahead of Matt Hanson and Lionel despite Matt being able to do so. Maik Twelsiak is a regular swim partner of mine who continually blows it out of the water in open swims but not so much in the pool. Likewise, I have another swim partner, who I will not name, but we swim side by side in the pool he is usually 2-3 minutes down in 70.3 and sometimes 3-5 minutes slower.

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this all speaks to the "intent" of the question - if it was bill and bob both are 70 min swimmers is it ok to swim together OR was it bob's a 48 min swimmer and he's going to pull Bill a 70 min swimmer faster

the email would - as read imply the former - the intent it appears was the later - be interesting to hear a view on that

No, the email does not imply the former. The email clearly asks about the scenario where Bill drafts off Bob's feet for the whole swim. This would not make any sense if Bill was as good a swimmer as Bob is. From the question it is clear that Bob agrees to teaming up even though he has no benefit from it (during the swim - he might benefit on the bike from being with Bill).

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Achim Traut

In my book there definitely seems to be some miscommunication going on, but giving every party the benefit of the doubt I would say there was no "ill-intent" on either side.

I can see Riccitello feeling his "approval" has been stretched, and I can see Barry Siff feeling that he was speaking straight out regarding the intentions of the athletes. Asking if it is "OK to team up" in my book goes quite a long way to saying one will provide some sort of assistance to another. On the other hand, as others surely will emphasize to great extent (what ST does best/worst..), one could argue that the question was dubious and unclear and lead Riccitello to "approve" of something completely different than what was put in place with Chabrot acting as a domestique.

My opinion is that the rules on this subject remain very unclear - and the essence of this is that once you bring the athletes "intentions" into consideration, enforcing the rule is already made so subjective that the rule should be altered. This issue can be argued up and down over 1 000 posts, and I'll stay out of this one. I think that the essence of this case is that both the athletes (whom are the ones we judge according to the rules) believed they did nothing wrong, and in my opinion they had justifiable grounds to believe so. What people think of this from a moral point of view, and what people make of the correspondence between Barry Siff and Riccitello, is another story and probably something that will call for both pop-corn and drinks.

I agree with this.

Whilst the original email was far from "explicit" and could have explained its own question better, I don't think that it was purposefully misleading.

It's a grey area for sure.
IMO the whole swim domestique thing (in a competitive/pro scenario where the drafting athlete is trying to place/podium) falls into the category of "legal, but not in the spirit of the race" and should be discouraged where possible.

I think that pulling a 2hr+ swimmer friend to help them get to T1 is fine.

Jimmy,

It appears that there are different rule books, one for the pros:
http://ap.ironman.com/...s.aspx#axzz3oUEEKROT
and another one which the IM website claims to be "The official competition rules governing all IRONMAN and IRONMAN 70.3 events" (and which also contains rules spefically for professional athletes, so it's clearly not just an age group rule book):
http://www.ironman.com/...a28565a453f79c0.ashx


Maybe before answering Barry's question you should have asked him whether he had asked about professional or age group athletes.
If the following is an applicable rule (it is present in one rule book but not the other)
(a) An athlete may not subordinate his/her race ambitions solely for the benefit of another athletes race ambitions. The penalty for this will be disqualification of both athletes; (DSQ of both athletes)
then I think the answer to the question (as it was asked by Barry) should have been that it's not OK.

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Achim Traut

Also, this is not subordinating your race to that of another; if they had stopped and fixed her flat for her, then that would have been the case.

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29 years and counting

I do not approve of Coach Barrie�s idea to provide help for Lionel in the swim in the manner in which it appears it was done.


So is it against the rules (asking for both AG and Pro)? I thought this stuff to some extent always went on based on what I've heard and read in interviews.

An all around bad day of decision making for the Sanders camp. He and his coaches lost a bit of respect from me on Saturday.

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I'm going to take a more charitable view and say that Barry thought he was asking the right question (basically "can I have a domestique", implied through the wording about drafting off the other swimmer for the entire swim), and you wouldn't have expected that they actually meant that one guy would go deliberately slower in order to assist the slower athlete. Chalk it up to miscommunication, issue a rule clarification, and done.

There is still a ton of interpretation here, so there will always be a degree of discretion, e.g. the situation with the Hoyts. Dick always "subordinates" his own performance for that of Rick. Or a lesser scenario, if one competitor gives another their only spare tube, then themselves get a flat tire later in the race, should they be DQ'd? If someone collapses on the course and someone stops.

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ehh never mind

JImmy and Barry (Siff). I think the question was fair and the answer fair. Why? Because perhaps Matt had already abandoned his Kona race ambitions before the race on account of Chattanooga and he was just going to go out and have some fun on the course for which he rightfully qualfied anyway whether Lionel came up with this idea or not. So in fairness to Lionel, he was not sure this was legit, so he asked the questions through the channels (USAT president to WTC head official)

I THINK Barrie Shepley's context is coming from ITU racing where we all know that teammates are often there explicitly to help the guy or girl who can close the deal on the run, an example of which would be Colin Jenkins in Beijing on a victory lap during the run after having "worked" for Simon Whitfield in the swim+bike. In this context, Jenkins is basically going to jog the run and has abandoned his race ambitions before the gun goes off (or perhaps the definition of his race ambitions is to protect his team leader vs his own time).

Matt still rode a decent 4:53 bike (for him, solo in the wind, he's not a massive guy and maybe he even paced off Lionel for a while) and jogged the run and seems to have been out for a training day to take in the Kona experience. By hammering Chattanooga and jogging Kona, he ends up with as many KPR points as someone who needed a 14th in Kona AND he fulfills his mandatory IM validation a year early. He MIGHT be able to just bag enough KPR Points from enough 70.3's to squeek in to Kona if he picks the right 70.3's. I don't really know Matt's plans. Maybe Matt felt he could get more KPR points if he paced Lionel in the swim and tried to pace him on the bike and rest as much as possible and then do a steady run given that his legs would be fried from Chattanooga.....so I don't THINK we can definitely say that Matt had entirely abandoned his Kona ambitions for pacing Lionel. Perhaps he thought he could pace Lionel to a 56 swim, then get paced by him on the bike and have the best chance of a fresh run and decent KPR points for next year.

I think this can be chalked up to an ill-advised idea by Coach Barrie and less than great communication. It happens, not the end of the world.

Serious question, though. DSQs can be handed out after the fact; the infraction does not need to be seen firsthand by an official. Course cutters DQed for missing timing mats, for instance. So, in the case of pro rule 2.02.a, which video evidence and coach/athlete personal admission shows was clearly broken, would you DQ after the fact? At 14th place it does not matter so much, but what if Lionel had gone on to win the race and the very clear evidence existed that he had a swim domestique. Would the result stand or must 2.02.a infractions be handed down on the spot?

Lionel still got 1620 points, which is not insignificant. The next guy would get an additional 245 points if Lionel was DQ'd. It's a good question.

For that particular rule, I wouldn't be in favour of post-race DQ's where it involves the cooperation of 2 competitors within the race. It gets very gray. Like Dev said, who's to say definitively that the assister's race ambition has actually been subordinated?

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My thoughts:
- are your 100's with paddles/ pull buoy substantially better than w/o? Also - are your times with paddles/buoy substantially more competitive to your peers?

Typically faster pool swimmers who can't translate that to open water are too reliant on their kick and can be somewhat lacking in rotation/ upper body strength.

Maybe you just stink at flip turns?

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Thoughts on being an Urban Triathlete

Gah! Fix the spelling in the subject line. I CAN'T TAKE IT ANYMORE!!

Could they have been any more vague with their question? They new exactly what they were planning on doing, so why not just disclose the whole plan to Jimmy and then ask "is this within the rules or not"? I think they were vague and misleading. Also I think Jimmy should have asked for a more detailed explanation as well, but had they disclosed their plan he could have issued his opinion more accurately.

Jimmy you have the worst job in the WTC and for that you have my upmost respect!

As of my typing there are 176 replies on this thread from about 50 to 60 contributors. How many raced a WTC event this year? 250,000 maybe worldwide?

Despite the ST sleuthing and/or godfather of triathlon editor in chief....seriously, this is blown way out of proportion.

Please take it all with grain of salt. The go forward position might be some pro specific rule changes. But for right now, nothing was done outside the rules.

And ST let's remember. Lionel is the youngest pro and least experienced pro there. How many times in business have we been influenced to do work, or send an email, or present something that our gut was saying "take a moment. Doesn't feel right" but we still went ahead? Takes a few lumps of poor experience to learn the gut check rule is REAL. Lionel just learned that. Cut the kid some slack for Christ sakes and stop throwing stones. What exactly did he do wrong? Listen to someone?

Let's move on as a lesson learned. We have Barry, Barrie, and Jimmy involved. All 3 top of the heap in this sport. Clearly communication was SNAFU and may enlighten some change. But let's not lump on Sanders here. He's manned up already.

Onwards.....

IMO

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@rhyspencer

I guess first thing is, what race ambitions was Matt abandoning? I honestly don't think he had any ambitions for this race other then a nice easy training day and little recon of the course and conditions. He didn't really abandon anything. He basically agreed to allow Lionel to ride his feet for the swim and he would ensure he stayed with him. But I'm not sure he actually gave up any of his own race ambitions, as I don't think he had any to begin with. Combine that with the fact that I honestly believe this happens quite often and we just don't hear about them all. Matt or Michael just decided to make this one public knowledge on the broadcast. Many back room deals are made all the time i.e. Macca bike team vs Crowie etc.. etc...

Given the drafting that takes place in the swim, I think this is too big of a grey area to make a big deal about.

Now, if Matt was in 100% top form coming in and was a top 5 favorite and did the same thing, we might have something to discuss. But as it is right now, I have no problem with it at all.

Good on Barrie / Barry & Lionel for exploring all options!!! Keep up or be left behind.

Now, channel that same level of thought and planning into getting Lionel a top notch swim coach :)

Regardless, I do think they they both owe Jimmy an apology.

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-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
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Fair enough!! I'm sure Barrie and Barry will reach out to Jimmy and clarify. They are big names in the sport and I'm sure will want to clear this up and put it to bed.

Very misleading. Why was a proxy used to ask the question? Why did the Coach not make the contact himself and disclose that the question was in regards to the pro race and involved one pro deliberately slowing his pace to help another?

Why did the athlete think his Coach contacted Jimmy?


This implies a conversation, which is much better than an email, as details can emerge -- such as that this involves the pro race.

Barry Siff asked Jimmy about a "registered athlete" not a "hyped IMWC pro contender." Was Barry Siff's email question sent to Jimmy for the purpose of clearing the plan for Lionel, or was it sent on behalf of another athlete?

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________
It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

1) I do not think you can say no rules were broken. It seems to be against both the letter and intent of the law and Jimmy appears to think so also.

2) it does not seem like the youngest most inexperienced athlete there made this mistake but that a very experienced coach manipulated both the very inexperienced athlete he supposedly mentors and Jimmy into making this happen - that is scandalous.

I do not know what should be done about it but I think it is very appropriate for us to take it seriously.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
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Seriously, you are reading waaay too much into it. This kind of thing happens all the time.

Barrie: Hey Barry, do you know if "x" is against the rules?

Barry: I think so, but let me check

Barry: Hey jimmy, is this OK?

Jimmy: yeah, sounds ok to me...

Barry: Hey Barrie, i checked with Jimmy, it's fine.

Barrie: cool, thanks....

---

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I'm one of those 50 to 60 contributors, and my comments towards WTC (and other governing bodies who issue rules) may have been harsher than necessary. I have participated in one WTC race this year as an athlete and in one other WTC race as a referee (as well as at some non-WTC races). And having made a serious effort to familiarize myself with and be knowledgable about all applicable rules, I have to say that it's hugely frustrating how difficult it is, not to say impossible. It really should be quite simple.
I feel Barry's email to Jimmy was fine, and if Jimmy had felt any more details had been relevant to answer the question, then he ought to have asked.

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Achim Traut

LOL!! I agree, this whole thing is a total joke. You are living in a cave on Mars if you don't think this type of thing happens all the time. Do you think Barrie and Barry are the first to come up with a plan like this. Part of the game, get used to it!!

I think people are just really curious as too Lionel, his story and where he can go in this sport, thus the added attention... 15,000+ views

Could be. Perhaps I've been reading too much into the title "Professional."

But in general I can't believe this happens often. While pro athletes may reach strategic agreements during the swim and even on the pier before the swim, does anyone believe that Lionel would have found a domestique if he wandered the pier before the race asking if someone would give up five minutes of their swim for him?

As Coach Barrie explained in his post, finding a person who would be willing the help required advance work and planning. As he said, most are not inclined to give up even one second.

I may be wrong and this could be normal pre-race swim dealmaking. If so, it should be easy to find evidence in the race results of pros that came to the finish in pairs with one guy swimming much slower than normal.

Maybe the pro swim should be a team event. Fans of Jordan Rapp might be happy with that.

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It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

Shut down the slowtwitch forum immediately. At least until rhys tells us how many signatures we need on a petition before we are allowed to have a conversation about a triathlon sporting event.

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________
It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

2010, Macca did some good deal making to attack on the bike with Tissink, Marino, Maik and Faris to take the win. That's really not that different and they never even tried to clear it with Jimmy. Craig Alexander "lost" but he manned up the next year, and did all his aero research, gave his sponsor a chance to come up with aero gear which they did not, and so he tore up his contract, and got on a faster bike and posted his best ever 4:24 run. Macca happened to have success with his deal making, whereas Lionel did not. Either way, they both did the same thing and in 2010 we were all talking about how brilliant Macca was to dupe these guys into his plan, having sandbagged the season and having everyone believe he was washed up and had no chance anyway.

If you are referring to this specific scenario I think you are right. I think most pairs would work together as much as possible but when the chain breaks it breaks. No looking back to see if they are still there and waiting for them to reconnect.

I was in Arizona last year and the topic of swim partners came up. This particular pro was listing who they pair up with before races. The only time this pro does not pair up is when their friends are not racing that day. Seemed pretty common based on the comments.

dev, I think the difference between what Macca did and what LS did is pretty substantial. He said to the strong bikers "Look, your best chance is for us to work together, within the rules, to try and distance Crowie before the run." IOW, he was identifying to others what he felt was their best chance to advance their race ambitions.

IMO, that is pretty much the polar opposite to having Chrabot slowing up to wait for another slower swimmer and abandoning his race goals / efforts.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

I'm still mulling it over, but right now, I actually find Macca's tactics and his team against Crowie to be far far worse then Lionel / Matt. Matt had no chance in this race and didn't give up anything, asking him to do this was a no brainer. Matt did nothing to self sabotage his race, given his current physical state and race ambitions, he had no race plan to sabotage. However, Macca's crew risked burning several matches or riding outside a zone of what they were capable of to team up and Gap Crowie, possibly sabotaging any attempt they may have had at winning the race. I'm sorry, but I think this is just the tip of the spear.

I just cannot believe how nasty some folks remarks are.

I cannot believe how some are now trying to throw others under the bus.

I think a fair question was asked. I think a fair answer was given. Nothing hidden, nothing sneaky.

I do not think what they did is against the rules relating to the gray areas on how the rules are written in the swim.

Seems the high road folks should be doing is here is what happened. Everyone had the right intentions.

The question now is this legal? If not, then clearly the rules with USAT and WTC need to be updated with better clarity.
How something like this would ever be enforced seems impossible to me. We can legally draft on the swim.
No way anyone can say with 100% certainty what folks plan was. Looking back IMO does not prove anything.

Some of these exchanges just show the real negative in our sport. Lets act like adults.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I have been told by friends who have over heard top AG's before a racing talking together about drafting together. This kind of stuff happens all the time.
Wow, this will probably cause the sun to not rise tomorrow morning.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

It is a good one to mull over. Initially the question is what criteria will one apply to determine if coordinated effort within Ironman is sporting or fair.

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It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

In the case of Macca, do you think that Tissink, Marino, Maik, and Faris believed that they were helping Macca and hurting themselves?

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It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

Does it make it acceptable just because it happens all the time?

Somewhat agree with this and was going to make the same point. But those guys went with Macca because they thought it helped their chances of winning. Hell, even Macca told them in the lead up, the only way we're going to beat Crowie is if we make him bike a bit faster so his run suffers, they all agree'd and went with him.

Lionels camp went to an athlete and said hey, you're gutted from Chattanooga, want to slow your swim down, and help us out? They're very similar, yet two different scenarios entirely.

And it happens all the effing time, not just by pro athletes either. Go to any race, stand at the swim start for a bit before the start, and you will see packs of athletes discussing all their swim times and slotting themselves into a pack and swimming together. No it's not advanced planning, but you bet your ass as we all train together and season plans get discussed we all consider which races to sign up for based on who else we know is going to be there so we can swim together, and then race when we get on the bike.

Red herring. No one is debating whether two pros can talk about trying to swim together. Drafting is allowed in the swim. Swimming five minutes slower than normal to pull someone else does not seem to happen "all the time" in the pro races. Again results showing this happened will prove me wrong.

Are you advocating allowing the pro IM swim to be a team event?

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________
It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

Normally I would a agree, but we got confirmation from both athlete and coach who would be the only two people who actually do know with 100% certainty what the plan was.

I think with better execution, this would be much more of a controversy. If they had actually practiced and executed this, it could have been the difference between Lionel finishing 14th or on the podium. And we probably never would have known about it.

The part that nails it home for me is the significant difference between working together within the rules for mutual benefit and working FOR someone else, knowing that diminishes your chance of achievement.

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/kj

http://kjmcawesome.tumblr.com/

Don't think the email was deceptive at all.
If only certain scenarios of this are ok - YOU should have clarified.

"They're very similar, yet two different scenarios entirely."

they two scenarios are completely different. historically, when it was crowie in the race, or before him when grip was in the race, every male pro knew the only way to win was to find a way to make the uberrunner suffer on the bike. none of those who rode hard, and who as a group conspired to ride hard, were forfeiting their own race ambitions. quite the opposite.

when one athlete's goal - whether during the swim or the bike - is to sacrifice his own race in order to help another, that's pacing.

it's prima facie. i don't understand the confusion. if a husband and wife each qualify for kona in the pro field, and the husband is pre-race knackered and knows it, and decides in advance of the race he's going to drop back and "legally" pull his wife through the bike, you all would know this is wrong and the rules are right there, written, specifically to this point (especially for pros). the only difference here is gender, and whether the "consideration" in exchange for the sacrifice is love or money or friendship.

i did this kona race the first year it was ever in kona. few of us knew, back then, much of anything about the sport. heck, it wasn't even a sport. i had never met another ironman athlete prior to coming to the island. we had to explain to all our loved ones what a triathlon was. but even back then we knew the sport was individual, and we knew what that meant.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

 
The purpose of this note is to address the swim issue of Matt Charbot & Lionel Sanders at the Kona Ironman on Sat and to ensure that the two guys and Jimmie Riccitello are not painted with incorrect information. I accept complete responsibility for not having all the proper information required when I made the recommendation to Lionel for me to seek out another swimmer for him to follow in the Ironman Kona Swim. Not fully aware of all the WTC rules, I had a senior colleague contact Jimmie by email on the topic. My colleague did email Jimmie, but failed to communicate he was inquiring about an elite competitor. My colleague confirmed back to me that the strategy of swimming on another person's feet was legal and not a problem. With that information, I spoke to Lionel about us employing it in Kona. Lionel asked if it was legal and I told him we had communicated with Jimmie.
Anyone who knows Lionel, knows he likes to race hard all day long, on his own and didn't believe he needed to employ the strategy. As his coach, I saw the value and started to investigate options. Had I followed back up with Jimmie directly myself, I am sure he would have counseled against swimming with another person. That is 100% my error on not following back up with Jimmie and I feel terrible about it.

It was my responsibility to know all the WTC rules and I regret the advice I gave to Lionel as he trusted my assessment of the information. Still fatigued and sore from the Chattanooga Ironman, Matt Charbot planned on just cruising the course for recognizance for 2016 and because he wasn�t racing, as a friend he agreed to have Lionel on his hip during the swim. Lionel swam as hard as he could on Matt�s hip and they exited the water together before Lionel biked and ran away.

I want to unconditionally apologize to Jimmie and his officials for distracting them from doing their important jobs. I want to apologize to the WTC Ironman family for doing anything that would take away from their amazing event. Mostly I want to apologize to Matt and Lionel who are two great young men, who only acted after I assured them it had been okayed (as I believed it had). As a long-time coach, it�s my responsibility to be fully aware of the implications of my actions and decisions. I love triathlon and fully accept that my decisions have been a distraction to the joy of Saturday's World Championships and the focus the top three men & women so rightly deserve.
I don�t intend on reading any comments or responding online after this as I feel badly the way my actions have impacted the two athletes, but I felt it was important that any blame or criticism should be appropriately targeted at me and recognize that Jimmie Riccitello, Lionel Sanders and Matt Charbot were involved in this situation totally due to my improper assessment of the information. For that I am deeply sorry to all involved.

Sincerely
Barrie Shepley

The e-mail asks if it's okay to draft a friend the whole way. Even though it wasn't stated, I think anyone's assumption (including Jimmy's) upon hearing such a question would have naturally been that *both* friends were still going to be racing. If both friends are racing then I think most people would think the arrangement was okay. For one thing, if the guy on the feet can't keep up then if both are racing that's his problem. The question was misleading because it omitted the fact that Chrabot was *not* going to be racing, but instead was specifically going to dedicate his swim to helping Sanders. The problem with omitting that detail is that *that* is exactly the detail that makes the arrangement against the rules (in my opinion anyway).

bravo, my friend (a sentiment i want to write even if you're not going to be reading it!).

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

agreed.

BTW: I received an apology email from Volkswagon last week regarding my diesel Golf wagon. It was terrible in comparison to Barrie.

Barrie's on the other hand is direct; takes accountability, and knowing Barrie as i do, 100% heart felt.

onward.

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@rhyspencer

No, I wasn't talking about this specific scenario. I was just talking about that style of email exchange, where you have a question, send it to someone, they don't know for certain, so they ask someone who does, then the answer circles back around to you. It happens all the time in personal or professional scenarios, and isn't a case of being "sneaky" or using a proxy to manipulate someone into giving the answer that you want.

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