x2

x3

Your at a race with the best what 2000 athletes in the world. Either accept it, race your own race, or just move on to another race series. You aren't going to race an WTC top level event clean. We can all play the blame game, but it's not going to get better, it's just changing the density of the actual drafters. So either talk with your wallet and go somewhere else, or accept we all are the problem.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

So you mis-understood my comments. I do not blame WTC at ALL. I never complain about WTC and love racing Ironman and 70.3 Ironman, that is why I support them financially through race fees. They put on great races, well organized and great events.

At some point, athletes need to be accountable for their own actions. I feel good about my race, I raced clean and earned my time. I get pissed when people blatantly draft in huge packs. It is the first WC I have qualified for and was disappointed that you most likely have athletes that could have solid races racing clean yet they choose to cheat.

This was my first WC and the drafting was abominable. I saw at least 6 packs and was stuck around one for a portion of 117. I tried 5 times to get through and away and finally got ahead and stayed ahead after the 5th try only to have the same pack pass me with 3 miles to go. The worst part was the referee who came through after they freight trained by me the first time and all the ref did was wave his arms like 'spread out'. He followed them for a few more minutes and waved his arms again. I took the opportunity to get through (attempt number 1) as the pack slowed down and expected to hear cards being drawn. Instead moto-ref motored on by. Wtf? Isn't it your job to make them spread out by giving penalties? Give it to the lot of them, bet it won't happen again if you do. By waving your arms and moving on, all you are doing it precipitating the behavior.

That said, a great town, great venue and fantastic course. The weather could not have possibly been better and it was very cool seeing all of the different countries represented.

You're to blame. You should take PEDs to avoid packs.

The ref must have been Canadian

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blog

I think Brooks understood perfectly. If you want it to be different, demand it of the RD. If we all boycotted over-crowded/ under-officiated races than things might change. Or get less crowded!

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Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team

Read this post and then reconsider. http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...post=5239028#5239028

"The biggest joke is that when I complained about the massive 50/60+ draft packs that were forming on the 117, the answer from the head referee (very nice and approchable guy btw) he said WTC had taken on race morning 3 of the motorbikes that were supposed to bust drafters to turn them into media motorbikes... "

If this guy is telling the truth, then this just epitomizes where WTC's priorities are. Sacrifice the integrity of the 2000+ person race so that WTC can get a few more photos for publication. Because, that's what "media motorbikes" means; you certainly don't make a last-minute call to convert a motorcycle from a drafting to media and expect it to provide livestream video, so this was all about getting a few more guys with cameras out there at the expense of them being drafting marshals instead.

If true, this also is an indication of the bush league operation that WTC really is when you scratch below the surface. This is a friggin' World Championship and they are making gametime calls for stuff like this? Who is running the show? It is so bush league that I am skeptical to believe that this account is actually true.

But, if it is, everyone who raced and was impacted by drafting, ie everyone, should be furious.

X4

There were packs of 50+ on the 117. If they DQ a few packs on a few races, I am sure this would change. Not doing anything is implicitely accepting the drafting.

The packs were worse than Clearwater. Mutiple packs and pacelines with officials following behind and not doing anything about it. As a slow swimmer and strong cyclist, it is frustrating to ride a clean race and watch so many athletes cheat and podium. No longer excited about racing 70.3 Worlds in Austria next year. On a positive note, Mont-Tremblant is an amazing venue, course was well managed, volunteers were awesome, etc.

x5.. I only saw three big peletons though, each with riders running a pace line about a bike length apart with 20-30 riders in each group. I hope their bike splits were awesome.

Dave

WTC's 'world championships' are no different than(American) Football WC: self-declared, and no official world-wide sporting institution behind it. Long as folks suck up to WTC and shell out for the privilege and bragging rights of the almighty m-dot, nothing is going to change. I went to the first so-called 70.3 worlds in Clearwater in 2006 While solidly buried MOP, I came home disillusioned. The drafting being effectively and officially sanctioned by not penalizing the ridiculously numerous and massive drafting packs was real eye opener. Good to see that nuthin' changed in 8 years.

Flame away ;).

Folks love to just bitch, bitch, but spend their money going to a race knowing exactly what will happen.

I know I complained about drafting at the first 3 WC's I went to.. But after many comments like yours, when I went to Edmonton, I was not going to worry about it.
What I did is all that I cared about. There was nothing I could do about what others did so why put all that negative energy into the race I was doing which
was a celebration of my seasons success.

.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

its the new comers to the sport and some of the oldies that just say i you cant beat them join them.

I had a newbie tell me last week the draft zone was 1.2 meters. I corrected him saying its 12 meters.

He didnt believe me. Even after showing him the rules on my phone.

I dont draft. My times on the bike pretty much confirm that.

---

And I just wanted my comment to have some meaningful background. When you put that many people (especially the talent of those people) on a course, your going to have drafting. Athletes aren't going to race "clean" if they can get away with it, and race organizers let them get away with it. And it's not going to get better. We are a sport that is built on you the AG athletes. Pissing you off doesn't make them money, and you all obviously aren't bothered by drafting because you sign up in record numbers for races every single year. Economics at work a hell of a lot more than athletics here in this decision making process.

So just come to accept it, that's what AG racing is, especially at this big races. So cue this same thread in 4 weeks after Kona.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Almost 10 70.3's after the first one and every year people are surprised that drafting is this bad?

It's absurd to be shocked.

Many WTC events are ITU light for the age group fields.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Just look at the bike course and then it should be clear to anybost with half a brain that this was going to be a problem.

Choosing a draft averse and fair bike course it not high on WTC's priority list.

Must live in a cave to not have gotten that message yet.

You guys are really naive for signing up for this expecting a clean race. There are huge drafting packs every year. It's the norm, not the exception.

WTC would pack 5000 athletes on a course if they thought they could get away with it. Cha-ching!

Start a thread on what a real world championship 70.3 would look like and STOP GOING TO WTC "World Championships".

Prediction: Austria next year will have huge drafting packs. Shocking!

I choose to close out my tri season at a local non-WTC 1/2 where I can start in wave 1 and generally have the course to my self while I swim, bike, run up and down the Cali coastline and my family gets to hang at the beach.. And the cost to sign up 3 weeks before the race is $206 (with active.com fees). And I'll be home for dinner.

yeah it's crazy that people think it's not going to be problem. Can't wait for Oct when they complain about IMH and it's drafting.

Even the pro's know that WTC AG races are often going to be draft fests.

Jan Frodeno

Slowtwitch: Does the necessity of being hyper aware of everyone around you to avoid getting a drafting call in this type of racing make it hard on you?

Jan: You know it�s the way the sport is...... And I think we do have good marshals out there - within their measures they are absolutely fair. It's a good thing y'know? In the pro race, it works. With age groupers I see it as quite difficult. Because there are just too many out there for a course of this size.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

X6. I couldn't believe how big the packs were. And it seemed like everyone in them was quite content to stay there. Frustrating, but nothing you can do about it when you are out there. The best part of my day was coming into T2 and seeing 5 or 6 guys in the tent. At least they were popping some people.

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_____________________________________________________
Instagram | Team Kiwami North America

"Almost 10 70.3's after the first one and every year people are surprised that drafting is this bad?

It's absurd to be shocked. "



As MadisonMan stated it was his first WC event. I think it is absurd for someone to expect such blatant cheating at a WC event.

Where the pros drafting? That's all the really matters. Rest of us just have to do the best we can!

Agree. Making those who criticize drafting feel stupid isn't going to solve the problem either. I haven't done a WTC event in a half dozen years and know the reputation those races have, but I always want to know about cheating and understand why my fellow competitors want to express their anger. When there are no more posts on ST about cheating at races, that's when we're likely really in trouble and our sport is absurd.

I agree. However not everyone lives here on the forum.

Completely false. WTC is widely accepted as the de facto championship series of the sport. It is not a great championship model and has fundamental flaws, but the global events draw the sport's best athletes, all of whom are attempting to earn their place in the respective WC events. If you attempt to argue that, you are simply naive.

IMO - drafting is only a big problem because of the sheer number of people that have very similar abilities. You cant put that many talented competitive people out there and not have a problem. I have never experienced big issues in any other race other than WC's. I tell my athletes to never be part of the problem - but also not to try to be part of the solution. I have come to expect it at WC races so it doesnt bother me anymore. Hope you enjoyed your day out there today. Cheers Michael

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Michael Hay - helped on the journey by the great folks at ZiZU Optics, (for the custom fit), and Bialkowlski's TRYSPORT

So then the question becomes what are we racing against? Is it ourselves and we feel good if we ride "clean" and with our time or are we racing for place amongst our peers and we need to take allowable advantages?

If you're racing solely for yourself, ride clean and feel good. Easy.

If you're racing to beat the guy next to you, how can you not draft because he is and the ref's are calling the game that way? I think of football where the officiating crew might be particularly sensitive to pass interference calls one game and in another game, they'll "let 'em play".

Drafting is essentially the same thing. All sports have this issue. You've never watched basketball and thought the shooter was/wasn't fouled and the ref got the call wrong? Never saw a pitch you thought was a strike but the ump called ball 4? The guy definitely deserved a red card in soccer.

So the guy(s) should be called for drafting but he wasn't. As long as it's not getting called, you adapt and give yourself the same, apparently equal, advantage everyone else racing that day has.

Now 30 people all doing it is different than pass interference in football but still goes back to playing to what they're calling that day. Crazy as it may be not to bust 30 people.

I am going to acquit myself from these claims w/ this: http://tpks.ws/MG28

It was ridiculous out there....................

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-Brad Williams
Website | Twitter: @BW_Tri |Instagram: @BW_Tri | Strava | Co-Founder & Coach at: KIS Coaching
Partnered with: Zoot Sports | Precision Fuel &Hydration | ISM

Tomorrow I will post my race report. I think there were elements of the drafting that were worse than Clearwater. But those of us who know the course (I have done all three 70.3's in Tremblant and all three 140.6's) know that if you put that many age groupers between 3.8W per kilo and 4.4 W per kilo on the course, there is not a single hill in the first 70K that is steep enough or long enough to break things up naturally, so then you need more motos. In a regular 70.3 or Ironman, being a 4 - 4.2 W per kilo rider, I can ride up in the top 5-10 in my age group and largely solo. But at 70.3 world's you have 100 guys like me were are in that position in their local race.

I actually had an excellent discussion post race with both Jimmy Riccitello and Yann Therrien the head official for Triathlon Quebec, and also with Marc Roy on the limitations for road closures and wave spacing. I am too tired to share all the details now. There are many things that could be done on all sides to improve things, and it is a bit of everything that adds up to make things bad. In the end, athletes have to decide for themselves how they want to race. The choice is binary...get the race you deserve for your own fitness and let fellow competitors fly up the road on other wheels, or fly up the road on other wheels and have a better placement.

No surprise, I chose the "let them fly up the road on other wheels". More to come tomorrow.

I am too tired to share all the details now.

___________

Your not going to tell us anything "ground breaking" from your talks. WTC will excuse it and say they are trying and for us to look at how their number of motos compares to other race companies and all that jazz. You'll probably tell us that racers need to do a better job of not bunching up, they are limited by the wave spacing, blah blah blah.

Until a race company AND athletes want to be serious with drafting, we'll continue to have these same issues, same conversation just a different race venue. There is nothing new to be said, I don't want to hear from the RD and officials. X race with Y number of athletes makes zero sense, and we are all up in arms over drafting. I don't even blame WTC anymore, they are just catering to what you the athlete want. If you don't give a shit about drafting, why should they, this is after all a business for them.

ETA: There are a ton of things everyone can do. But what I don't get is, then why aren't we doing them? As I've said in the past, JimmyR is probably doing all that he can do, but when I hear that they took 2 or 3 official motos and turned them over to the media, anything else that comes from said organization is simply PR fluff. Don't tell me what we can do, do it. I had some great conversations with USAT and Charlie their head official like 6 months ago, and it comes down to the athletes demanding better race officiating and then the RD's will have to answer to why they aren't doing more. Of course for WTC, they have their own officiating crew, so they fall under their own branch. But the same thing applies. If athletes told RD's they weren't going to sign up until more officials showed up and actually BOYCOTTED WTC races, they'd make changes in a hurry. Just like athletes would change their behavior if officials handed out 450 immediate DQ's for drafting. Of course they wont do that because then the officials would be so gun shy to actual call drafting, it would become an farce.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Also depends on the country where the race is. For age groupers at U.S. WTC races, as well as the 70.3 WC at Mont Tremblant, the draft zone is 7 meters, 4 bike lengths. So you'll need to correct him again. (It is 12 meters for the WTC pros).

I too am very disappointed in many racers. I know the majority would prefer not to cheat, but it is way too tempting.
Our egos get in the way. I can sleep soundly at night knowing that I didn't cheat. On another note....
How come the penalty tents are empty? When the drafting was so obvious and there were many officials
on course.

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Proudly sponsored by Orleans Cycles, Turbo Cranks, and the csdceo

Yeah it was bad, although I think a lot of it was unintentional course congestion. This is becoming more and more an issue at every WTC race. I got stuck behind this pack of 200+ people that took up the entire road, as far as I could see at times, and I simply could not pass. The other people at the back/behind that group were pissed off and did not like the situation. I finially had to launch an attack up the right shoulder on the long climb at 50k to get away.


On the other hand, there were lots of smaller groups of 5-20 guys that were blatantly pacelining when they had plently of room to space out. I had one group that I tried to pass repeatedly, but they would just organize the chase and swallow me up a few minutes later. Thankfully I did see these guys get hit with penalties, but its still disappointing that people come to this race and make the choice to cheat. I guess Clearwater set the "its OK to draft" precident and now its considered what you need to do to win at 70.3 worlds.



-

Only in the US do some get so folks up over this hobby. You play a sport, you play by what the race and official "give" you.

When I was at Edmonton, I was fully prepared to do whatever the race gave us on race day to compete. And if this had meant lots of drafting, well guess what, I would have taken what was given. Turned out with a great race course with hills, turns etc., outstanding breaks between waves, and lots of moto's it was an amazingly clean race. I can say not once did I ever have a chance to consider drafting. (My slow bike times probably helped a lot).

But if I were in one of these draft fest races, and I had trained and paid to compete, I just smile at folks that say they are just going to let the draft packs go by them. For the few who get all mighty on ST, great.

The issue is not Jimmy. It all starts with what type of race course the RD puts together, period.

.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

You guys clearly didn't get the "draft legal race" registration when you signed up....

Seriously tho. I saw an official waving a card at a female pro who seemed to be fine when I went by. Yet I saw a official pacing right next to a draft pack without saying anything... I'm glad I needed 20 watts higher just to put myslef in any contention.

There's drafting at WC races? Wow, big surprise? How do you think these people get there? There are races out there where you have ZERO chances to qualify unless you get on the train. I don't buy the "more rides of similar ability either". I've been engulfed by 20-30 rider packs at 70.3 Miami and you can let them fly and do an honest 2:30 split or join the pack, see your power drop 80W and your HR go to 100bpm and just sit there on your bullhorns doing 25mph. It's your choice... I chose to race an honest race.

So why was it not such a problem in Vegas? I thought that race was the best I had seen, especially after Clearwater.

From what I gather a lot depended on when you were on the course. Did it improve, absolutely but there were still drafting trains out there (especially in 25-29 groups).

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Well it didn't seem to be the outcries, and I saw very little. The roads were also so open, no excuse that marshals couldn't share the road. I thought that venue was awesome. And fair.

That was my question as well. It was my first time at the WC and I pretty much knew some drafting was going to happen. I just kept repeating to myself that I do this for fun, if I finish last my family still eats, and to not let it get to me. The first three packs I actually put in some strong surges and got clear but by the time I hit the turn in Labelle I knew that this strategy wasn't going to work if I still wanted to run later that day. Plus at the turn around I also got to see what was coming up the road and it wasn't pretty. So from then on I just let them go-they are generally moving so fast that I didn't even have to soft pedal very long until clear of the draft zone out the back so I felt at least this strategy I could just stick to my power and do my own thing, know I gave an honest effort and just try to make my goal times for the day. As hard as I tried to shake it off it was pretty demoralizing to slide from 25th back to 87th AG, and then coming up to an empty penalty tent on 117 didn't help. In the end I put out exactly the avg power I was looking for on bestbikesplit and came in within 40sec of my predicted split so I gave myself a pat on the back for an honest days work and went out to see how many of them I could run down! In the end it doesn't matter as my 1:27 run isn't going to get me anywhere near a podium spot even with the top swim-bike combo in the race - does it really matter if I am 30th or 50th? My wife didn't leave me, and my kids were happy to see me when I got home even if dad is not a world champion.

Every athlete has a choice, for me it is more important for my kids to see an also ran than a cheater. If having the recognition of being top 3, top 10 or 20 in your age group is worth doing whatever is necessary, have at it. Whatever floats your boat. Just don't bitch about having no choice, the pack just 'swallowed you up' and you couldn't get clear. You can always get clear - either HTFU and go off the front and see how long you can go before they catch up again while hoping you still have legs for the run, or sit up let them ride off into the sunset. I guess the alarming thing to me is the guys that totally admitted to riding in a pack the whole way because 'everyone was doing it, you just can't compete if you don't' - sound familiar?

Still, it would have been nice to see them actually handing out penalties, at least giving the honest riders the illusion that they actually give a rat's ass!

You play a sport, you play by what the race and official "give" you.
____________

Except that works when your a sport that is played actually in front of officials (team sports lets call it). However that isn't the case for triathlon, as I'm willing to bet for AG'ers, they are 90% of the time "alone".

ETA: If that is your stance, then yes I do fault the officials for doing a piss poor job of "officiating", especially when I hear they took 2 or 3 motos away from the officials and gave them to media. That tells you all you need to be about WTC's stance on their officiating. So if your telling me that athletes should race according to how it's officiated more than what the rulebook says, and yet rarely are athletes actually in front of the officials to be officiated, then we will never get rid of this problem.

So I guess just do what you seem to be implying you do at races and if it's a pack, jump in it and if you get caught, you get caught, if you don't, you don't.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Thanks for the info.

I see many others observed crazy packs as I did. Which wasn't unexpected, given other races I've done. What was unexpected was how empty the penalty tents were. I was in the 25-29 wave, starting right in the middle of the whole race. I expected to see the penalty tents overflowing. I saw one guy in the tent. What did others observe? There's drafting in Kona but at least the tents are full. There's some penalty risk. But when there's blatant packs, officials go by without giving penalties it just reinforces that cheating is okay. Which is contradictory how they hype it up in the athlete guide and "mandatory meeting". Actions speak louder than words and WTC isn't backing up many of their words. I'm sick of this crap. Where's the thread/list of non WTC races offering quality competition? What should I support next year? Opinions much appreciated.

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Ben McMurray
Northern Michigan Small Farm Venture ---> http://facebook.com/hillvalleymi [/size]

i started in the second-last wave and am not a good cyclist, so had relatively empty roads :-) when i was going north, I saw four people in the tent around 45km. saw one person in the tent when i came back south. didn't look at the second tent before T2 at all.

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run well, run happy
george

I am saying most folks who come on here and get on top of the mountain and say they have never drafted is ...

And I am guess for most of these they are not good enough to get on the podium anyways.

I have yet to have the opportunity at a race to join a draft pack. I do not do flat boring courses. I pick the hardest biggest hill bike and run courses I can find. This is how I can kick butt, from folks with either lack
of training and or poor choice of gearing and get rid of the time trial flat course stud bikers.

But if I was at a key race, and there were draft packs, and that is what the RD put in place, I have learned to never say never in life. I would rather be honest than ...

.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

But if I was at a key race, and there were draft packs, and that is what the RD put in place,

_____________

This is where I feel the sport is lost and a lot of integrity has disappeared because the sport wants it both ways. The sport by it's nature simply cant regulate athletes during races. Sure maybe they can attempt to at like 1-2 "world championship" events, but take your local 40k bike in an Olympic. It's just too wide and far reaching for there to ever be consistent and fair officiating. But because we've accepted that officiating is the only marker to regulate the results, we have this mindset that you prescribe "if they are cheating to beat me, then I probably need to cheat as well". And I'm not knocking that mindset, that's what the sport has created and/or caused athletes to feel. The issue I have is that we are trying to regulate it like team sports that occur in front of the officials for 98% of play (it's easy to regulate when the field of play occurs in a nicely compact 100yd x 50yd field), yet we are more like golf (courses cover so much ground and terrain) in that honestly, you are/should essentially your own official. But because we are governed by officials in a race, if they let you get away with it, you will push the envelope and get away with it. So essentially, we are a sport that's basically set to fail more times than not.

Officials will get on their soap box and say "you need to race clean", but then not really back it up with much officiating, so it's a bit of talking out of both sides of your mouth.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

If even a few of these folks who bitch would be saying they are also officials, then great. But so many bitch and give nothing back to the sport. My wife and I help at like 30 years a year. Folks see me out there all the time.
So an easy improvement is Charlie is so flooded with folks who want to be officials, that they can get on ST and bitch that they offered their services and the RD's did not want to pay for officials, or more officials.
There are many solutions. Why do some folks not stand up and put some of their time where their emotions are. But no, folks will just complain and not try to help improve things.

.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Except for this court settlement:

"ITU hereby acknowledges and recognizes that the Ironman Triathlon World Championship does not constitute a "self-proclaimed" or a "self-declared" world triathlon championship within the meaning of any applicable ITU rule or policy."

One you are an idiot for putting WTC and Integrity together. I have not seen a WTC race without a large amount of drafting..

Tremblant is no exception. Did the full twice and saw 30 - 40 bike packs.

Also talked to at least 3 officials for 4+ violations and never saw a single penalty handed out.

>Where the pros drafting? That's all the really matters. Rest of us just have to do the best we can!

I disagree. Rules are the basis of any competitive sport, amateur or pro. The non-drafting rule is fundamental to the integrity of results in non-drafting triathlon. You don't see weekend warrior soccer players using their hands and telling everyone that the no-hands rules is only important for pros.....

Yes but in triathlon, the pro race really is the only race that even has a chance of being accurately/properly officiated because of the nature of the sport being played out on a 50 mile course. The AG'ers really are racing under the gist of it being officiated by officials, but also the idea of hoping you behave like they do in golf (self regulated).

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

BDoughtie wrote:

But because we've accepted that officiating is the only marker to regulate the results, we have this mindset that you prescribe "if they are cheating to beat me, then I probably need to cheat as well". And I'm not knocking that mindset, that's what the sport has created and/or caused athletes to feel.

I think you should knock that mindset. We all should. And every time we don't, we are the problem. Not WTC. Not the officials. Us.

I agree and disagree. I do agree that we all are the problem. Whether it's because we are accepting it, or whatever, I think the issue becomes: where/how do we fix it?

Because it's cute and all to say "drafter suck" but then when "we" back it up with continuing to support all these races that are draft fests, what are we really saying? That's the whole issue, WTC wants to say the athletes need to do a better job of self policing themselves, and the racers are throwing their hands up when they are put in situations because of poor course management. And it's become an issue that we don't really care to solve. So as the other guy put it, we've gotten to the point of doing the dirty deed, shrugging our shoulders and moving on. Who was it that said it best, complacency is probably the worst feeling to ever see because when you don't care, you wont ever get change. That's where we all have gotten (myself included...I had an athlete racing in the 70.3 WC, so I'm as guilty as others).

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

I saw exactly the same thing on 117. Official riding next to a pack for 3 minutes or so waving his arms telling them to spread out. Then he drove off. I was expecting to see the penalty tents full but the first penalty tent had 2 people in it and the last one had NO ONE.

The frustrating thing is that (as I'm sure most people did) I trained hard to see how I would perform against the best athletes. Unfortunately I'll never know.

The only reason I did this event was because it was driving distance for me. I will never spend the money flying to an international destination to "race" like this.

Sadly I'm sure the Ironman brand is strong enough that there will always be enough people to fill up the field so there really is no incentive for WTC to clean up the races.

You've never taken a gimme or mulligan in a game of golf? Never taken a bit of unauthorized relief from a tree or something?

I think this is a relatively easy problem to solve, but maybe expensive...

A simple battery photoeye mounted to the steerer tube, front facing, with a timer for amount of time blocked. Setup radio on/off triggers at transition so the start recording out, then stop in. Allow some amount of time showing blocked based on event length, and if time is exceeded then there's a penalty. You can even scale it; 5 minutes of drafting = 2 minute penalty, 10 minutes = 4 minutes, and so on...

Can either be distributed at race start in packets, or (if so inclined) riders can permanently mount. Even if WTC didn't adapt, you could post your bike split with your total drafting time on any forum you wanted, allowing those so inclined to prove they raced clean. Once manufactured in qty, I don't think such a gizmo would be more than $200 or so (WAG on my part, I freely admit).

In a "tournament" or out dicking around for 18 holes in golf? How I play golf with friends, and how I play under tournament (you know the weekly best ball skins games), are usually very different. When I'm out with friends, very rarely do I putt out each hole. If I'm within the leather, I pick it up and go on to the next hole. Similar to when I'm out training with athletes, how we behave in training and how we behave in the actual competition are usually not the same. If we are out riding on 50 miles, I'd wager 98% of the ride we are "drafting".

Not sure what point you are making.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

I just don't think golf is exactly the bastion of self policing you describe it as. I think it's pretty much the same as AG triathlon. You can be as strict or loose within the rules as is socially acceptable within the particular confines of the event. I'm sure there are plenty of guys at those tournaments who, if they thought they could get away with it, would gladly take a little foot iron from behind a tree to save a stroke.

If the marshalls caught anyone that could have been challenging a top 10 because of drafting - all that matters.

It sucks that others were drafting, but so does diving in soccer, pulling helmets in soccer, spearing in hockey, etc. There are only so many officials.

Your the 1st person that I've ever heard of that has described golf's integrity as that poorly. I would not agree with your assessment at all. Again are you describing how people play in their weekly golf outing or actual "real" golf situations (weekly tournaments, etc.). I have to ask, do you actually play golf and how much have you ever played in your life? I've never seen the rampant cheating even at your local weekly best ball 9 hole outings with your buddies. I don't think many would agree with your characterization.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Sadly, when in europe the situation is even worse. I've done 3 LD WC events in europe, and the spanish and french peletons came by with a moto escort! I think as the WTC moves these races to foreign countries, they will see the US support and continent dwindle (not all bad), Euro rules will apply and the race will so totally different.

I think many are right that we need to stand up and demand rule changes, and as least enforcement. How best to do that is tough, as peer pressure doesn't seem to affect today's athlete, and WTC really doesn't show any evidence of caring.

I am a recreational player. Charity tournaments, that sort of thing.

I'm not saying golfers are cheating, I'm saying they would cheat if they could get away with it. Except the guy you're with is watching you and if you were to engage in all sorts of shenanigans I'm sure he would call you on it. I don't think golfers are any different than any other hyper-competitive folks. It's just that the pace of the game makes cheating virtually impossible, so it's easy for them to talk about "code of honour" and "self-enforcement". The reality is, you walk or ride around with 3 other referees who can see exactly what you do. In big time tournaments, there's a whole gallery (and sometimes even a whole world if its on TV) of referees watching these guys.

You think there would be drafting in triathlon if there was a video feed of the whole race and anyone who watched it could call in a drafting foul, even after the race, and it would be enforced?

I wasn't surprised there was drafting, I haven't been to a WTC race where there wasn't drafting no matter the location or number of entrants. What was surprising and disappointing was the lack of the ref's doing anything about it other than waving their arms. Ridiculous. If no penalties are given, there are no repercussions and the result will be more of the same. I'm simply asking the ref's to do their job and hand out the cards. He was there, the pack was there and nothing was done.....therein lies the frustration and disappointment. If there are consequences, people will think twice about doing it the next time the opportunity comes up but with no consequences, more draft packs will form. Drafting will happen in every race and excellent points made about the quality of the people coming on the course at the same time as well as the layout. Nothing we can do about that, I'm asking for accountability for the ref's, something we all need to speak to whenever we get the chance (before the race, after the race and during the QA at meetings). It won't go away, but hopefully seeing more cards given out will help. I saw ZERO people in the tents at WC which is why I'm hot on the refs.

BTW, I did Calgary this year and they specifically announced that anyone with a penalty would not get a spot to the WC. That caused a stir and I loved it, that is more like it. I was in one of the first waves in Calgary so can't speak to packs, but up front, there wasn't a single instance of drafting I saw and it was an entirely different and fun experience.

I've had one penalty before in a race, a 70.3 in May. Our wave was the very last one, 2000+ competitors and after 15kms I hit major congestion. People on mountain bikes, people on old road bikes, people riding 3 abreast - a complete clusterf*ck. I understand the drafting rules, but was not sure how to handle this. I was sitting on 35km/hr, you had the mountain bikers on whatever, the old road bikes on 25km/hr, then guys slightly quicker overtaking them slowly at 28km/hr. I was loathe to slow down even more to maintain the 12m, sitting on their ar$se waiting for them to overtake, so I could then overtake them... Probably a bit of naivety on my part and also I think the TOs could do with using a bit of common sense -they should have been able to figure out that I was getting zero benefit sitting behind someone with a pot belly on an old 1980s road bike... The 6 minute penalty hurt though, it's a big chunk of time when you've trained hard and got a set time in mind. If the TOs start aggressively pinging people, the drafting will stop in a heartbeat. TBH the TOs seem pretty vigilant in Australia.

^ this

As a later wave we saw the packs on the 117. Huge packs with a moto at the end, so they saw it but didn't call it
One moto rode up to the guy ahead and screamed to him that he wasn't 7m. But no card

There were lots of officials on the course. I have never seen so many so it wan't a manpower issue.

I would love to hear Jimmy's stats on how many penalties were given out. I saw 1 guy in the tent so I am guessing very few.

Agree with you... there is a certain arrogance I've noted on this forum and this is an example IMO. I've never seen a peloton like what he saw or encountered one in a race. Most I've seen is a handful of riders or someone asking me if I'd like to "work with them" as I'm passing them. I've heard/read about drafting packs but experiencing them first hand would be a different story. There's a huge difference between drafting for 56 miles and solo pedaling it. I know I'd be frustrated, especially if they went by me like I was standing still.

If the officials and race staff aren't interested in enforcing the rules of drafting, sounds like something that will just continue. That sounds like the case here.

Yeah it was insane. I really regret having raced. I should have stayed local to Boston and done Pumpkinman. I feel like that race was a waste of fitness.

I'm pretty impressed/surprised you rode 2:11 on 3.7 w/kg (not making accusations - I know you're a strong athlete - just more questioning my own setup). Is your weight accurate in TP?

I rode 2:19 on 291 np (3.83 w/kg), on a giant trinity w/ disc cover, 80mm front wheel, giro a2, conti 4000s w/ latex tubes, and fairly aggressive position. I was in the first ag wave though and rode out 117 alone into the headwind. I got swallowed up on the return, sat up for awhile to let the pack go, put in an attack on the longish climb on 117, got swallowed up again on the out and back in St Jovite, sat up and let them go again, and then was finally able to ride through the majority of guys again in the last 10 miles on the crazy climbs from miles 45-50.

Do you think you benefiting much from slingshotting since you were in a later wave?

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Twitter | Kancman | Blog

I think that was a big difference for you and me is that you were in the first wave. I had a lot of athletes in front of me that I could slingshot off of. I didn't see a ref till 30K and then not again till 70K. I got frustrated a few times with the groups, did the same thing you did and got swallowed back up. The only thing you can do as an athlete that has integrity is go to the back of the group and sit 7 meters off and just wait for a marshal / ref to show up. The only thing is you have to be aware what is going on at front of the group and if a few riders go off the front then you have to make the decision to go.

I don't think my bike split to W/Kg is to crazy for me. I have what I consider a great position, courtesy of David Wenger out of Austin / Durata Training. I put a lot of time and thought into the bike build, but have not been in the tunnel. I biked a 2:11at Vineman last year which I would say is a fairly similar course, little less elevation gain, but crappier roads. I was also on the "Old P3" then.

So TP's does W/Kg off of AP, so off of NP I would be around 3.9-4.0, not sure exactly where I was in terms of weight on race day. What was your power in those last 10 miles? Where was your peak 20-30min power?

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-Brad Williams
Website | Twitter: @BW_Tri |Instagram: @BW_Tri | Strava | Co-Founder & Coach at: KIS Coaching
Partnered with: Zoot Sports | Precision Fuel &Hydration | ISM

Ah okay, that makes sense. I was doing my own w/kg off of np. And yeah while I know my setup is solid, I'm sure there's a few watts to be saved with the better frame, wheels, and potentially better position.

The other thing - and I think you touched on it there - my power in for the last 10 miles was also only around ~290 np. I'm not sure what it was for the climb vs the descent, but I didn't have an easy enough gear, and I felt like I was grinding more than I should have been, and consequently putting out less watts. So it would make sense that there was a lot of time to be lost/gained in the steep uphill section if you were really pushing.

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Twitter | Kancman | Blog

slingshotting is the dirty little secret of the later waves of a 70.3. People like to say, "wow, I only biked 10min slower than the top pro", but really they're benefitting from a huge draft. Worse is when they say (and I've done this too), wow, I biked 2:20 at a tough HIM and only 5min behind "X" pro, that means I'll be only 10min behind him at the next IM, giving me a 4:45 bike split.

I've almost always been in later waves and my bike times have seen the benefit. Like Brad, I'm usually passing (although not so fast!), and it really helps. I'm sure his times will suffer at first when he turns pro.

you know, when you get swallowed up there's no crime in sitting in at 10m. You don't have to sit up and let them go.

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

I just went in and looked and it was 292AP / 304NP for that last section. I had an 11-23 on, wasn't the plan but I think it actually forced me to ride some of the sections harder than I would have.

Of note, I also wore a mid/long sleeve Castelli Stealth top, and I also put on knee warmers in T1, along with toe covers, and gloves.

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-Brad Williams
Website | Twitter: @BW_Tri |Instagram: @BW_Tri | Strava | Co-Founder & Coach at: KIS Coaching
Partnered with: Zoot Sports | Precision Fuel &Hydration | ISM

If the officials and race staff aren't interested in enforcing the rules of drafting, sounds like something that will just continue.

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Let's also add, the racers don't want to ride clean. With drafting it's a 2 way fault here.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

I raced on Sunday, too. I was in the third to last wave. I saw three big packs. One pack was so big it took up a 1 1/2 lanes. What really made me mad about the drafting was, I saw a marshall go by without breaking them up....when I passed the penalty tent there were four women in there. I'm not saying they weren't drafting but there's no doubt there were plenty of men drafting, too!