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2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades)
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Whom do you have for overall podium? What about some of the jerseys (not like they really matter)? Stages?

I'd like to see Joaquin Rodriguez to win. 2nd place to perhaps Nibbles. 3rd place to an Euskatel rider. Dark horse pick being Thomas DeGendt.

Would also like to see Pinot and Dan Martin do well. Hell, i've got Dan Martin penciled in to wear the rainbow stripes.

There's barely any flat stages in this year's race, which should make thing interesting.
Last edited by: echappist: Aug 24, 13 6:08
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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pinot has my favorite tattoo in the peloton.

nibali, purito, valverde.

the vuelta and the giro are so much more exciting than the tour. shorter, harder stages and more fireworks.



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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [bmeer] [ In reply to ]
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for sure. even the flatter stages are great for breakaways
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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I predict that there will be numerous crashes involving Euskatel riders.

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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [Billabong] [ In reply to ]
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oh c'mon, that's below the belt :p. we aren't talking about riding on the Trouee Arenberg here
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [bmeer] [ In reply to ]
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who you guys got for tomorrow? somehow i wonder if the favorites want to take things over as they'll have to put their team to ride on the front from the get-go. Katusha got a bad experience from that last year, and i doubt they want to do it again.

perhaps a good stage for Dan Martin and Pinot
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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> I'll throw out Stybar as my dark horse winner.

Damn, I was just a few days off!
Last edited by: trail: Aug 30, 13 8:59
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [trail] [ In reply to ]
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forgive me but is the vuelta televised in the US?

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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [scofflaw] [ In reply to ]
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Universal sport, it seems

-----

As for today. As good a day for Dan Martin as any. Also for Joaquim Rodriguez. And who knows, maybe Phil Gil might just get his first win...
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [bmeer] [ In reply to ]
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Vuelta is my favorite grand tour & definitely the most exciting- I was hoping Bein sports would carry it in the US, like they did with the Giro. I wanted to enjoy the Giro but the weather ruined that for me with canceled & shortened stages

My top 5
Purito for the win
Nibali 2nd
Uran 3rd
Valverde 4th
Horner 5th Yes!!! finally an american to cheer for in the Vuelta

Is there a fantasy league like the one for TDF, I made a team already on velogames
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [ChrisC42780] [ In reply to ]
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wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!! what a ending
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [ChrisC42780] [ In reply to ]
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that was unexpected, to say the least

Chapeau to the old man. Hell, he may even be the oldest stage winner at the Vuelta
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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I have not enjoyed a jersey ceremony as much as today

Chapeau to Horner!!
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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Why was it unexpected? He TOLD you!

Man has a power meter, he knows!

echappist wrote:
that was unexpected, to say the least

Chapeau to the old man. Hell, he may even be the oldest stage winner at the Vuelta



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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wait, did he predict this? do you happen to have a link to the said prediction?

This year's Vuelta's gonna make up a good bit of the stuff i watch on my roller in the upcoming winter.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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echappist wrote:
wait, did he predict this? do you happen to have a link to the said prediction?


“With that mountain stage tomorrow, maybe I can take the jersey. We rode today also thinking about tomorrow,” Horner said after the stage. “I haven’t raced in Europe in five months. The legs are good. The form’s there. I can dream about taking the jersey tomorrow.”


http://velonews.competitor.com/...-after-sunday_300221

http://

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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [ZippityDuDah] [ In reply to ]
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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jackmott wrote:
Even before that he said he could win the Vuelta:

http://velonews.competitor.com/...to-the-vuelta_299936

He's delusional.....you don't suddenly develop into a GT contender @ 41. He has never once contended for a GC position in a GT. and if he does contend for the overall, there will be other reasons......like "15" of them. Wink

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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [Power13] [ In reply to ]
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You say he is delusional.
But he just took the lead.
So..whatever.


Power13 wrote:
jackmott wrote:
Even before that he said he could win the Vuelta:

http://velonews.competitor.com/...to-the-vuelta_299936

He's delusional.....you don't suddenly develop into a GT contender @ 41. He has never once contended for a GC position in a GT. and if he does contend for the overall, there will be other reasons......like "15" of them. Wink



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [Power13] [ In reply to ]
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I just want to know what he got put in his leg during surgery that let him compete at the Vuelta with 3 weeks of training after 5 months of the bike.

Super impressive performance today. They won't let him slip away like that ever again, I'm sure.

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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [Creatre] [ In reply to ]
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More like 3 months of training after 5 weeks off the bike. You are a little off :)

Not saying there aren't possibly extra helpers involved, of the pharm variety, but yeah.

-Physiojoe

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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [Power13] [ In reply to ]
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Power13 wrote:
jackmott wrote:
Even before that he said he could win the Vuelta:

http://velonews.competitor.com/...to-the-vuelta_299936


He's delusional.....you don't suddenly develop into a GT contender @ 41. He has never once contended for a GC position in a GT. and if he does contend for the overall, there will be other reasons......like "15" of them. Wink

"Old age and treachery beats youth and skill..." ;-)
He DID place 9th at the 2009 Tour despite flogging himself early on for his team captain (who shall not be named)...
And he has had some success in the shorter Spanish tours (Tour of the Basque Country, Tour de Catayuna).

Still, have to wonder if this was a one-off victory-of-opportunity and whether he can back it up consistently over the next 17 dayss.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [Physiojoe925] [ In reply to ]
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The extra helpers for him the last 3 years, which include a 9th in the tour de france while carrying water bottles for team mates, and 1st in the tour of california in 2011, may be that every else has less pharm help.

Physiojoe925 wrote:
More like 3 months of training after 5 weeks off the bike. You are a little off :)

Not saying there aren't possibly extra helpers involved, of the pharm variety, but yeah.

-Physiojoe



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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jackmott wrote:
You say he is delusional.
But he just took the lead.
So..whatever.


Power13 wrote:
jackmott wrote:
Even before that he said he could win the Vuelta:

http://velonews.competitor.com/...to-the-vuelta_299936

He's delusional.....you don't suddenly develop into a GT contender @ 41. He has never once contended for a GC position in a GT. and if he does contend for the overall, there will be other reasons......like "15" of them. Wink

'Cuz taking the lead on day 3 is clearly the same thing as winning the Vuelta. OK, then.

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [Power13] [ In reply to ]
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He is contending, like he said he would.

Power13 wrote:
'Cuz taking the lead on day 3 is clearly the same thing as winning the Vuelta. OK, then.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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jackmott wrote:
He is contending, like he said he would.

Power13 wrote:
'Cuz taking the lead on day 3 is clearly the same thing as winning the Vuelta. OK, then.

Yeah, 'cuz every rider who holds a race lead after day 3 is "contending." Uh, OK.

His 9th place in the 2010 was largely due to one long break (w/ LA) and was allowed to go up the road because no one was a GC threat. And even then he still finished over 11' back.....that is not really contending. And to compare a ToC win to a GT is just silly. The peloton is filled with guys who can contest a 1 week race but not a 3 week race.

I love Horner...love the way he rides and how he races. But good lord, people need to get a grip. He is the oldest rider to win a GT stage and the oldest rider to wear a GT Leander's jersey. As noted previously, you don't suddenly develop into a GT rider in your early 40's.

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [Power13] [ In reply to ]
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [Power13] [ In reply to ]
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How many chances has Horner had to be a GC leader that have ended in him failing on his own accord (ie not injuries)? Just because he's never been there or thereabouts, doesn't mean he's failed. He's a good climber and can TT effectively. I'd still be surprised if he's top 5 after Stage 21, but he's definitely looked very good in the two climbs so far.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [Quantum] [ In reply to ]
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wow what a climb at 28%, I remember the finish on that climb last year. what a great race!
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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what the hell happened with the time gaps today? horner was within 2 seconds of the winner, watched it live and replays. odd.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [Quantum] [ In reply to ]
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Quantum wrote:
How many chances has Horner had to be a GC leader that have ended in him failing on his own accord (ie not injuries)? Just because he's never been there or thereabouts, doesn't mean he's failed. He's a good climber and can TT effectively. I'd still be surprised if he's top 5 after Stage 21, but he's definitely looked very good in the two climbs so far.

You don't have to be a GC leader on a team to have good results in a race. The history if cycling is littered with guys who rode from domestique to team leader, many while still supporting the guy with a "1" in his number. Horner has never shown that ability. Ad it doesn't magically appear when you are 41.

A for injuries ruining some of his past chances, that is part of the game. You gotta finish the race (keep the rubber side down) and have the framework to withstand 3 weeks of racing. A history of going out with crashes and injuries would suggest that he is then not well-suited to be a team leader for a GT.

Again, I love Horner and his racing style and I was pleased to see him take the jersey yesterday. But for years, the fans have been claiming that he is a GC threat and there is zero record to indicate that. Ad if he suddenly becomes one at 41....well, do the math.

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [buzz] [ In reply to ]
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Its funny how no one wants the jersey so early in the race, but I get it

There was a 2 second gap between the groups, but they take times of the first riders to cross the finish line in each group, so that added up to 6 seconds
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [ChrisC42780] [ In reply to ]
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>There was a 2 second gap between the groups, but they take times of the first riders to cross the finish line in each group, so that added up to 6 seconds

Nerz is a gap opener! I bet he got yelled at a bit.

Not so much because of the jersey change, but because for a few of those guys 6 seconds are hard fought...Uran Uran, Zubeldia Agirre, etc.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [Power13] [ In reply to ]
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Horner is a long shot, true. But he's been "there or there abouts" in Le Tour more than once. He'll need luck and help to podium but why not? There have been some odd podiums at the Vuelta and the Giro in the past- both these races are far more "open" vs. TdF.

Horner's best shot is probably in a climb-centric stage race assuming he can recover properly over three weeks. However, he's going to be marked now so perhaps being helper in the past with no GC ambitions helped his placing at TdF; having stated a GC ambition and grabbing the leader's jersey should force others to pay attention and this may hinder his chances to take significant time.
Last edited by: juha-pdx: Aug 28, 13 10:24
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [juha-pdx] [ In reply to ]
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When has Horner been "there or thereabouts" in the TdF? And what "odd podium" has he been on in the Giro or Vuelta?

I can only assume you are referring to stages, and not the overall. No one doubts his ability to win a stage in a GT, but that is a far cry from contending for the overall.

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"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [Power13] [ In reply to ]
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The odd podium I referred to at the Giro & Vuelta doesn't include Horner. I was referring to De Gendt & Hesjedal in the Giro last year plus Froome & Juan Jose Cobo in 2011. Those are recent podium finishes that weren't picked.

Horner has been 14th, 9th and 13th at LeTour.
Last edited by: juha-pdx: Aug 28, 13 11:25
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [juha-pdx] [ In reply to ]
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OK, I got it.... "Odd podium" = surprise / unusual result. I was reading it as "he has picked up the odd podium at the Giro or Vuelta", as in he has occasionally finished on the podium.

As for "there or thereabouts", we're gonna have to agree to disagree on what that entails. I don't think his Tour finishes come close to "there or thereabouts." He has never once truly been a factor in he overall of any TdF.

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [Power13] [ In reply to ]
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Good thing this is just the Vuelta =)

Power13 wrote:
OK, I got it.... "Odd podium" = surprise / unusual result. I was reading it as "he has picked up the odd podium at the Giro or Vuelta", as in he has occasionally finished on the podium.

As for "there or thereabouts", we're gonna have to agree to disagree on what that entails. I don't think his Tour finishes come close to "there or thereabouts." He has never once truly been a factor in he overall of any TdF.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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DAS PANZERWAGEN

damn, so close. As a breakaway rider, i really wanted to see Martin hold off the field. Damn...
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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that was just cruel, but I was out of my seat for that last 200 meters
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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Such a bummer for Martin, SO close. FC is showing good form. I think that was his second podium this week, and taking 3rd in a bunch finish for a guy "who can't sprint" isn't too shabby.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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He effectively road a sub 4 hour IM bike leg solo on a road bike.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [torrey] [ In reply to ]
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torrey wrote:
He effectively road a sub 4 hour IM bike leg solo on a road bike.

a round tube one too

mark this for future arguments about who would win a 112 mile TT, roadie or triathlete



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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I turned away from the broadcast for about 10 km at 15 km to go because I figured it was just going to end up as a sprint. When I came back at 5 km to go, I was shocked he was still out there. Unbelievable ride--it was a bummer he was caught.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [dmorris] [ In reply to ]
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dmorris wrote:
I turned away from the broadcast for about 10 km at 15 km to go because I figured it was just going to end up as a sprint. When I came back at 5 km to go, I was shocked he was still out there. Unbelievable ride--it was a bummer he was caught.

Absolutely! I can only imagine the level of suffering that guy was going through that last km.

you know it's an exciting race when it not only gets me but my wife up, standing and yelling at the TV to "Come on"

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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [Turd Ferguson] [ In reply to ]
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Dammit. Soooooooo close!

Hopefully Gilbert will get one win out of this Vuelta
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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>mark this for future arguments about who would win a 112 mile TT, roadie or triathlete

That's an argument? Best TTer in the world vs. a triathlete. In a TT?
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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It's Der Panzerwagen ...

(after all, wouldn't you expect the masculine pronoun to apply rather than the indeterminate?)
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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How common is it for the WC to not take a single win barring injury?
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [Carl Spackler] [ In reply to ]
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I always think it's funny when he says he "can't sprint". Sure he's not an elite sprinter, but he holds his own when he tries. You don't place 4th at the copenhagen world champs (only losing to cav, goss, greipel in the biggest sprinters race) if you can't throw down a good sprint.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [torrey] [ In reply to ]
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not that common, though perhaps somewhat more prevalent than you'd expect. Ballan was hit with a virus in 2009 but still had a few wins.

according to wiki, Freddy Martens won no race after his win

Stephen Roche was injured in 1988
Rudy Dhaenen had no victory in 1990
Bettini had somewhat of a quiet year in 2007 and 2008, though he did win Lombardia after his win in 2006, not to mention that he defended the jersey in 2007
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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Ivan Basso put on some impressive pulls today!

exciting vuelta so far for sure
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [nvas21] [ In reply to ]
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nvas21 wrote:
Ivan Basso put on some impressive pulls today!

exciting vuelta so far for sure

Basso's pull was impressive....however I am always impressed my his sister.

Note: If you dont know what I am talking about google "Ivan Basso's sister"

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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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You see, thats the beauty of this place (ST). During the TDF everybody said

"Waaaa! Not enough changing became a foregone conclusion that Sky would take it. Boring watching Froome dominate. WAAAAA!"

But on the flip side you have this years Vuelta were they have had 6 different people wearing the leaders jersey, uphill 30% finishes, Tony Martin almost soloing for 110+ miles and nobody cares.

I for one love the Vuelta this year and in general. Shorter stages make for more spirited racing.

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Ba Ba Booey

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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [Turd Ferguson] [ In reply to ]
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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i for one, would like to see the Horndog's power outputs for the stage. I hope he's clean, but, wow, he put in a minute in 5 kms of racing...
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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so what's the deal? i always thought he was widely seen to be clean, but stokes and other don't seem to think so.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [buzz] [ In reply to ]
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [buzz] [ In reply to ]
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dirty/clean by power numbers piulled out of the air, with little or more then nothing to base them on.....thats nice.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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jackmott wrote:
Some people became so cynical after lance that anyone who wins is dirty in their eyes.

though it is interesting that after so many years as a journrymen he is now racing with the best (who knew that cutting down on hamburgers and fries were so effective)
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [Runguy] [ In reply to ]
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to be fair, he's never much success and perhaps, as a result, less less "damage" than some of his other contenders. The guy was racing domestically as recent as 2005, after not being able to make it in Europe in his first go-around.

Against him, of course, is age.

Personally, i want to believe, but i'm also not naive to give everyone a carte blanche. Horner posted his numbers for the stage win earlier in the Vuelta, and perhaps, he'll do the same for today.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [Runguy] [ In reply to ]
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who knows. More competitive because of less doping which lets the natural guys rise to the top?

Or more competitive because there is less doping but he still is?

Or just a case of targeting the Vuelta with smart training less racing, and he is the freshest and most fit of the contenders at this Vuelta?

or maybe he lost 5kilos?



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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or maybe he is just a nice guy that never rubbed anybody the wrong way
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [buzz] [ In reply to ]
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buzz wrote:

so what's the deal? i always thought he was widely seen to be clean, but stokes and other don't seem to think so.

The "IT Band surgery" this spring was just a cover - he really had bionic legs installed.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [Runguy] [ In reply to ]
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Runguy wrote:
or maybe he is just a nice guy that never rubbed anybody the wrong way



Supposedly he chased down hincapie in his final tour for talking.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [buzz] [ In reply to ]
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I think his success on this last stage was down to 3 factors:

1) Most of the contenders are off their game slightly (tired from the TdF or not 100% fit), bringing the pace down just slightly

2) Nobody considering Horner a threat and not making a concentrated effort to bring him back

3) All the main GC contenders were marking each other while he was allowed to ride off the front. When he attacked they just looked at each other.


In the grand scheme of things I don't think he can take it all the way. He may pick up another stage, but it is doubtful he can win. I don't think the other guys will be quite as willing to let him ride off again, especially if he is up there as the race moves further on.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [Ghost234] [ In reply to ]
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He dropped everyone to take the win and gc lead on stage 3 and the sage internet wisdom then was that they let him go and wouldn't again and that he is not a real contender..... Hmmm


Ghost234 wrote:
I think his success on this last stage was down to 3 factors:

1) Most of the contenders are off their game slightly (tired from the TdF or not 100% fit), bringing the pace down just slightly

2) Nobody considering Horner a threat and not making a concentrated effort to bring him back

3) All the main GC contenders were marking each other while he was allowed to ride off the front. When he attacked they just looked at each other.


In the grand scheme of things I don't think he can take it all the way. He may pick up another stage, but it is doubtful he can win. I don't think the other guys will be quite as willing to let him ride off again, especially if he is up there as the race moves further on.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [buzz] [ In reply to ]
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buzz wrote:
so what's the deal? i always thought he was widely seen to be clean, but stokes and other don't seem to think so.

No, he is widely believed to be Rider #15 from the USADA Reasoned Decision.

I stand by my original assessment.....you don't develop into a GT contender at age 41....at least not without help.

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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [Power13] [ In reply to ]
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Power13 wrote:
buzz wrote:

so what's the deal? i always thought he was widely seen to be clean, but stokes and other don't seem to think so.


No, he is widely believed to be Rider #15 from the USADA Reasoned Decision.

I stand by my original assessment.....you don't develop into a GT contender at age 41....at least not without help.

all i knew was that Salvodelli was rider 1, but damn, this is some juicy stuff

Quote:
Rider15 – in 2008 told Levi he’d used EPO during recovery from an injury in 2005 prior to Tour de Suisse


Chris Horner

Wikipedia: "After being injured in the beginning of 2005, Horner showed strong performance in the USPRO Championships and won his first major European victory by taking the sixth stage of the 2005 Tour de Suisse."

CN report on Horner's Suisse stage win: "[Can he win overall?] No... it's the beginning of the season [for me]; it's the first time I've had multiple days of hard racing."

from: http://velorooms.com/index.php?topic=1256.0

Horndog henceforth to be referred to as rider #15
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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jackmott wrote:
Estimates between 6 and 6.3w/kg that final climb. +/- 5% or more.

The problem with these tours is that someone has to win each day's stage. That tends to encourage speculation.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [An Old Guy] [ In reply to ]
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Horner seems to be at his best when the climbs get really steep. With the all the mountain top finishes, the Angliru as the penultimate stage, and no final day TT, I can see why he likes his chances with this year's edition.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [Power13] [ In reply to ]
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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jackmott wrote:
You called him delusional. You were wrong :)

You know it is a 3 week race, right?

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [Power13] [ In reply to ]
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Power13 wrote:
jackmott wrote:
You called him delusional. You were wrong :)

You know it is a 3 week race, right?

I have no doubt you will adopt whatever mental gymnastics are required to argue that he was not a contender in this race even if he should win it.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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awesome
jackmott wrote:
Power13 wrote:
jackmott wrote:
You called him delusional. You were wrong :)


You know it is a 3 week race, right?


I have no doubt you will adopt whatever mental gymnastics are required to argue that he was not a contender in this race even if he should win it.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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jackmott wrote:
Power13 wrote:
jackmott wrote:
You called him delusional. You were wrong :)

You know it is a 3 week race, right?

I have no doubt you will adopt whatever mental gymnastics are required to argue that he was not a contender in this race even if he should win it.

Not retrain why you feel the need to take personal pot-shots, but whatever floats your boat.....

As a rough comparison, did Ritchie Porte "contend" this year's TdF? I wouldn't say he did, even though he was sitting 2nd at roughly the same point of the race as the Vuelta is now.

Like I said....3 week race. Long way to go.

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [Power13] [ In reply to ]
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Porte was not a contender because that was not his role. He could have contended, but didn't. In a footrace we don't usually call the rabbit a contender even if they're leading at the halfway point. It's not a question of ability, it's a question of intentions.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [ike] [ In reply to ]
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Totally missed the point.

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"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [Power13] [ In reply to ]
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Power13 wrote:
As a rough comparison, did Ritchie Porte "contend" this year's TdF? I wouldn't say he did, even though he was sitting 2nd at roughly the same point of the race as the Vuelta is now.

Like I said....3 week race. Long way to go.

1) Porte's role was ALWAYS domestique. Horner is the undisputed team leader.
2) Vuelta is a COMPLETELY different race than the TdF. It's much more climber oriented, particularly this year's edition.
3) Horner has finished 10th (after dragging around LA the first half of the race) and 13th in previous TdF, so he's not a slouch in 3 week races. His usual problem has been staying upright - he's crashed out more often than not.

Yes it's early, but if he doesn't lose much time in the TT, can stay uptight, can mark Nibali and Rodriguez through the Pyrenees, he stands a really good chance when they get to the Angliru, a climb that plays into his wheelhouse. I don't think this race will be decided until the penultimate day.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [Power13] [ In reply to ]
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No, he is widely believed to be Rider #15 from the USADA Reasoned Decision.

I'm not too up on all that, but if they had evidence of him doping then why was he allowed to go to the Olympics and not suspended?

For the old guys who remember back then, Horner dominated the US scene for a good while. Saying that "he couldn't make it Europe" isn't true. He had the talent, but there were "cultural issues"... which was thought by some to mean that he didn't want to dope.

Regarding his GT finishes... he has consistently finished damn high in the TdF for someone who takes their domestique duties seriously... which means you support your GC man, and your placing is an incidental result of being with him on the major climbs.

I've always liked Horner... he is tough and talented and speaks his mind. I expect that everyone is doping, but Horner would have to be on the "less likely" list IMO.

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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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How about Spartacus wiping up the middle of the course with Martin like a used chamois.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
How about Spartacus wiping up the middle of the course with Martin like a used chamois.

My guess would be that Martin had an intelligent pacing strategy that fell apart in the final Ks of the stage when he blew up big time from fatigue. Hard to know what you can do in the middle of the grand tour when you did a 112 mile TT a few days ago!



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [trail] [ In reply to ]
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That was impressive for sure...I can't believe he had the control to pace it that slow in the beginning and give up that much time....savvy!
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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Pretty clear he changed his mind about the cultural issues from the way he cried on camera when Lance had a bad day during his come back.

rruff wrote:
No, he is widely believed to be Rider #15 from the USADA Reasoned Decision.

I'm not too up on all that, but if they had evidence of him doping then why was he allowed to go to the Olympics and not suspended?

For the old guys who remember back then, Horner dominated the US scene for a good while. Saying that "he couldn't make it Europe" isn't true. He had the talent, but there were "cultural issues"... which was thought by some to mean that he didn't want to dope.

Regarding his GT finishes... he has consistently finished damn high in the TdF for someone who takes their domestique duties seriously... which means you support your GC man, and your placing is an incidental result of being with him on the major climbs.

I've always liked Horner... he is tough and talented and speaks his mind. I expect that everyone is doping, but Horner would have to be on the "less likely" list IMO.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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Check that, newsfeed says the initial time check was wrong....Cancellara was faster across the board.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [GREG_n_SD] [ In reply to ]
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GREG_n_SD wrote:
Check that, newsfeed says the initial time check was wrong....Cancellara was faster across the board.

AHA!
So the time trialists DO know what they are doing, haha



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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Did Horner have a bottle in his cage at the start and ditch it when it was empty or did he just ride that TT with an empty cage on his frame?

EDIT: Just saw on the recap he did start with the water bottle.

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Last edited by: RowToTri: Sep 4, 13 8:55
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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I was hoping Horner would hold on to the lead for a while

I like the comment someone left on liveupdateguy.com about Horner...he has been in and out of the Red more that IBM

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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [Billabong] [ In reply to ]
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Billabong wrote:
I was hoping Horner would hold on to the lead for a while

I like the comment someone left on liveupdateguy.com about Horner...he has been in and out of the Red more that IBM

Actually probably good for Horner to lose it again. Now pressure is on Nibali and Astana to defend. Horner is tied on time with Valverde @ 46 sec. 6 summit finishes left plus time bonuses means race is still pretty wide open for the top 4. Big loser today was Rodriguez.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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jackmott wrote:
lot of people lost bottles on the bumps early in the TT.

Horner needs to learn to TT man!

did u read that Niballi has a swollen face cause a wasp?

I tho about "The Secret Race" right away...

The entire event (IM) is like "death by 1000 cuts" and the best race is minimizing all those cuts and losing less blood than the other guy. - Dev
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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No, Andy Schleck needs to learn to TT, Horner needed to learn to TT about 15 years ago :)
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [GREG_n_SD] [ In reply to ]
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>No, Andy Schleck needs to learn to TT

Andy needs to learn to carry 6 bottles at once!
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [trail] [ In reply to ]
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SO TRUE!!!

Though I don't think his fragile body or ego could handle it!

trail wrote:
>No, Andy Schleck needs to learn to TT

Andy needs to learn to carry 6 bottles at once!
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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http://www.youtube.com/...aETsuCOkJ0H_GAztWt0Q

Gotta have pretty big set of nuts to turn over that chainring

_________________________________________________
When all is said and done. More is usually said than done
Ba Ba Booey

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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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Horner needs to learn to TT man!

Maybe Pozzovivo can give him lessons. Has he ever done well in a TT before?

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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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Would be awesome to get a few before/after shots of him on the bike, see if he fixed his position

rruff wrote:
Horner needs to learn to TT man!

Maybe Pozzovivo can give him lessons. Has he ever done well in a TT before?



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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Pozzovivo weighs 115 lbs. He has had some good climbing results... but I look at his bike and position and I'm thinking if he can lay down enough power to ride that kind of TT, he may do something in the mountains yet.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/...age-11/photos/278541


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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [camaleon] [ In reply to ]
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huh?

camaleon wrote:
jackmott wrote:
lot of people lost bottles on the bumps early in the TT.

Horner needs to learn to TT man!


did u read that Niballi has a swollen face cause a wasp?

I tho about "The Secret Race" right away...

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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [GREG_n_SD] [ In reply to ]
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I think it's interesting to have a dig at Andy Schleck. Are you familiar with his results? 1st in TdF, 2 x 2nd in TdF and a 2nd in the Giro (behind Di Luca), 1st at LBL.

These are not the results of being weak or fragile.

Jacob




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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [Turd Ferguson] [ In reply to ]
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Turd Ferguson wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/...aETsuCOkJ0H_GAztWt0Q

Gotta have pretty big set of nuts to turn over that chainring

58T - holy hell
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [btmoney] [ In reply to ]
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What would you want if half the stage is a 5% downhill? Of course the problem is what do you have for the uphill.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [ericM40-44] [ In reply to ]
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Bottle + Front brake... how much Martin is losing with that setup?




The entire event (IM) is like "death by 1000 cuts" and the best race is minimizing all those cuts and losing less blood than the other guy. - Dev
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [ericM40-44] [ In reply to ]
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ericM40-44 wrote:
huh?

camaleon wrote:
jackmott wrote:
lot of people lost bottles on the bumps early in the TT.

Horner needs to learn to TT man!


did u read that Niballi has a swollen face cause a wasp?

I tho about "The Secret Race" right away...

Armstrong was complaining that somebody had his face like a pumpkin pie due to drugs during a TT (if I recall correctly)

The entire event (IM) is like "death by 1000 cuts" and the best race is minimizing all those cuts and losing less blood than the other guy. - Dev
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [camaleon] [ In reply to ]
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Aka, the Mauro Santambrogio look



-----

But anyways, PHIL!

I'm at work so i can't see the replay, but finally.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [camaleon] [ In reply to ]
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Awesome finish today!!
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [cjj] [ In reply to ]
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For a while it seemed that he won't have many chances at anything given today's stage has a finishing hill that's not very steep, tomorrow's stage has a finish that suits him but also has a has 4km hill at 11%, and that stage 17 may be too flat.

Now he probably has a good chance tomorrow and on stage 17, given that the sprinters are probably tired, and he may very well contest stage 19 as 5.7km at 6% is hard for a puncheur but not out of reach.

He can then go home to Belgium and contest GP Wallonie and show up in Italy in good shape.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [btmoney] [ In reply to ]
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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Also, regarding Horner,

390w at 65kg for the final 15 min of the stage he won. That's 6w/kg and not out of the ordinary by any means.

http://www.srm.de/...a-a-espana-stage-10/
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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Just as a data point:

3 out of 4 of the popular twitter-power-estimators guessed he did 6.3W/kg which would put him in the 'physiologically implausible' category.

Whereas the 4th twitter-power-estimator and his SRM report the 'perfectly reasonable' 6.0

Just something to remember when the performance cynics start yelling at whoever is winning a bike race next.



echappist wrote:
Also, regarding Horner,

390w at 65kg for the final 15 min of the stage he won. That's 6w/kg and not out of the ordinary by any means.

http://www.srm.de/...a-a-espana-stage-10/



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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Or ride 650s. I'm pretty sure Rinny rides a 58T to get the right gearing.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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Indeed.

Though of course, srm data is also subject to manipulation. I, for one, never put in much trust in the VAM models as they can be off by 10%, and that's more than enough to skew things from clean to unclean and vice versa.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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Here are the VAM-->power/kg estimates that showed up on twitter after stage 10:

Chris Horner [63.5 kg]: 23:25
DrF: 6.08W/kg. CPL: 6.27W/kg. BCR: 6.36W/kg. rst: 6.36W/kg.

But yes, entirely possible to shift the SRM data down a fixed percentage or amount. Just pointless to do so imho, since power isn't a dope meter anyway!

echappist wrote:
Indeed.

Though of course, srm data is also subject to manipulation. I, for one, never put in much trust in the VAM models as they can be off by 10%, and that's more than enough to skew things from clean to unclean and vice versa.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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wow s***, that was an insane stage. woke up a bit late to catch it, but i was able to watch the last few kms on Eurosport. Apparently the signal was so bad they couldn't provide telecast until 6 km to go, sorta like stage 14 (coincidence, no?) of this year's Giro

i'm certainly looking forward to the World Championships and Lombardia after this, and Gilbert is showing quite good form right now.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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echappist wrote:
wow s***, that was an insane stage. woke up a bit late to catch it, but i was able to watch the last few kms on Eurosport. Apparently the signal was so bad they couldn't provide telecast until 6 km to go, sorta like stage 14 (coincidence, no?) of this year's Giro

i'm certainly looking forward to the World Championships and Lombardia after this, and Gilbert is showing quite good form right now.

Yeah, they had the last maybe hour? on with a live signal. Before that, they only had static cameras, highlights, then Eurosport cut away to a tennis re-run.

- Rato, off the front, had an awesome day. On the wet corners he was unclipping and sticking his inside leg out, Valentino Rossi style.

- Horner and Nibali had a 'normal' ride - don't chase anyone don't get silly, know that they'll leave everyone on the final climb. They did.

- Tons of abandons for hyopthermia.

- The descent on the Alto de la Cornella was so unbelievably steep and wet. Sketchyest downhill I've seen in a while. Only reason there weren't people flipping over guard rails is that the leader had a 9 minute lead, and to make up time would have been suicide, so they all sorta moseyed down it.

Great day of racing. Tomorrow should be awesome, too.



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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [Rick in the D] [ In reply to ]
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I was getting nervous just watching Rato descend...
That was a great stage to watch. Too bad there wasn't more video.
And Old man Horner now in 2nd!
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [caf0] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah sometimes I get it in my head that I wish I was talented enough to be a pro cyclist then I think about descending a big mountain in the cold/rain and remember - NOPE!

caf0 wrote:
I was getting nervous just watching Rato descend...
That was a great stage to watch. Too bad there wasn't more video.
And Old man Horner now in 2nd!



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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or you can be a classics specialist and not have to worry about racing down mountain passes ;)
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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echappist wrote:
or you can be a classics specialist and not have to worry about racing down mountain passes ;)

true, you have to deal with cobbles instead...I'd be ok with that though!



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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Were I a guy and had the choice, I'd choose to ride like Spartacus.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [caf0] [ In reply to ]
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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Yep, she's a pretty fair cyclist :)


jackmott wrote:
caf0 wrote:
Were I a guy and had the choice, I'd choose to ride like Spartacus.


Arguably you have a more awesome model in Marianne Vos! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marianne_Vos
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [caf0] [ In reply to ]
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Well, there is a women's edition of de Ronde van Vlaanderen, and Spartacus probably wish he could pull this off at will (outsprinting his opponents). That's after closing down every single attack thrown in by her opponents in the last 10km, btw.


and yes, you do get to storm away on cobbles as well

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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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I would love to see her power profile. And how many days should could hang in a mens grand tour.

echappist wrote:
Well, there is a women's edition of de Ronde van Vlaanderen, and Spartacus probably wish he could pull this off at will (outsprinting his opponents). That's after closing down every single attack thrown in by her opponents in the last 10km, btw.


and yes, you do get to storm away on cobbles as well




Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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from http://www.velonation.com/...ride-mens-races.aspx

Quote:
In recent tests with her new Rabobank team Vos was reportedly recorded as having a VO2Max [the capacity of the body to transport and use oxygen] of 72.8ml/kg/min; she was also able to produce a maximum of 6.63 Watts per kilo, which is more than many of her male teammates, including Giro d’Italia stage winner Pieter Weening.
Read more: http://www.velonation.com/...s.aspx#ixzz2eEqEz8HF

IIRC, Paolo Bettini had a VO2max in the low 70's. And with a max aerobic power was 6.63w/kg, her 5min power is probably a bit higher. Perhaps 7w/kg for 5 min (which would be hors catogorie as far as the Coggan chart is concerned, btw).
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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Yep.
Now I just need 5 second, 1 minute, 1 hour numbers!

echappist wrote:
from http://www.velonation.com/...ride-mens-races.aspx

Quote:
In recent tests with her new Rabobank team Vos was reportedly recorded as having a VO2Max [the capacity of the body to transport and use oxygen] of 72.8ml/kg/min; she was also able to produce a maximum of 6.63 Watts per kilo, which is more than many of her male teammates, including Giro d’Italia stage winner Pieter Weening.
Read more: http://www.velonation.com/...s.aspx#ixzz2eEqEz8HF

IIRC, Paolo Bettini had a VO2max in the low 70's. And with a max aerobic power was 6.63w/kg, her 5min power is probably a bit higher. Perhaps 7w/kg for 5 min (which would be hors catogorie as far as the Coggan chart is concerned, btw).



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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She didn't train with power until this year, and i doubt they'll release the data...

From pure speculation though, she's good at CX, which requires a lot of anaerobic power and the ability to operate at high lactate concentration, so high 1min power. This is also backed up by the fact that she's worn the rainbow jersey for the scratch and points races. Top sprint? Who knows. Probably not as high as even a Kirsten Wild, but high enough that she beats the competition when the sprinters get dropped on a cat-3 climb. 1 hour? Also pretty high, as she's won the Giro Rosa 2x.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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Hey 5min power is pretty insane. Would not even be able to hold her wheel on a 5min climb. ugh




echappist wrote:
She didn't train with power until this year, and i doubt they'll release the data...

From pure speculation though, she's good at CX, which requires a lot of anaerobic power and the ability to operate at high lactate concentration, so high 1min power. This is also backed up by the fact that she's worn the rainbow jersey for the scratch and points races. Top sprint? Who knows. Probably not as high as even a Kirsten Wild, but high enough that she beats the competition when the sprinters get dropped on a cat-3 climb. 1 hour? Also pretty high, as she's won the Giro Rosa 2x.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
Quote Reply
Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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echappist wrote:
She didn't train with power until this year, and i doubt they'll release the data...

From pure speculation though, she's good at CX, which requires a lot of anaerobic power and the ability to operate at high lactate concentration, so high 1min power. This is also backed up by the fact that she's worn the rainbow jersey for the scratch and points races. Top sprint? Who knows. Probably not as high as even a Kirsten Wild, but high enough that she beats the competition when the sprinters get dropped on a cat-3 climb. 1 hour? Also pretty high, as she's won the Giro Rosa 2x.

So she's Peter Sagan? :)



------------------

- I do all my own stunts
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [Rick in the D] [ In reply to ]
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A mix of Peter Sagan and Froome, without the time trialing.

Or maybe she does have the time trialing just doesn't do it.

Rick in the D wrote:
echappist wrote:
She didn't train with power until this year, and i doubt they'll release the data...

From pure speculation though, she's good at CX, which requires a lot of anaerobic power and the ability to operate at high lactate concentration, so high 1min power. This is also backed up by the fact that she's worn the rainbow jersey for the scratch and points races. Top sprint? Who knows. Probably not as high as even a Kirsten Wild, but high enough that she beats the competition when the sprinters get dropped on a cat-3 climb. 1 hour? Also pretty high, as she's won the Giro Rosa 2x.

So she's Peter Sagan? :)



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
Quote Reply
Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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Or maybe she does have the time trialing just doesn't do it.

Sucked at the Olympic TT.

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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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Did anyone else noticed that Horner only appeared to be wearing one shoe cover yesterday? Also he was swinging the switchbacks so wide he
was giving Nabali a bikelength back on every turn and essentially gave away any chance at second on the day.
In Reply To:

John Hartpence, Athlete & Coach
tripence@gmail.com, @coachpence
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [tripence] [ In reply to ]
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Yes and yes.
I don't think he had enough in his frozen legs at that point to handle any steeper micro grade...
Tough, tough stage for all.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [tripence] [ In reply to ]
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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He would have gained a 2sec time bonus for 2nd, I believe.
Instead he lost that and maybe another 2sec GC due to gap.


jackmott wrote:
Horner got no time for 2nd on the stage.

Too busy contending for the gc =)
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [caf0] [ In reply to ]
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I was just taking a dig at somebody =)

There are like 4 more mountain finishes in this vuelta, which is crazy.

Tomorrow is basically uphill all day

caf0 wrote:
He would have gained a 2sec time bonus for 2nd, I believe.
Instead he lost that and maybe another 2sec GC due to gap.


jackmott wrote:
Horner got no time for 2nd on the stage.

Too busy contending for the gc =)



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
Quote Reply
Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry - missed that. I came late to this thread :)
Hard to argue Horner isn't contending...

This is truly awesome. To watch.


jackmott wrote:
I was just taking a dig at somebody =)

There are like 4 more mountain finishes in this vuelta, which is crazy.

Tomorrow is basically uphill all day

caf0 wrote:
He would have gained a 2sec time bonus for 2nd, I believe.
Instead he lost that and maybe another 2sec GC due to gap.


jackmott wrote:
Horner got no time for 2nd on the stage.

Too busy contending for the gc =)
Quote Reply
Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [tripence] [ In reply to ]
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Also he was swinging the switchbacks so wide he
was giving Nabali a bikelength back on every turn and essentially gave away any chance at second on the day.//

This is actually a tactic when your legs are done with high power outputs. Going wide makes the % of grade a lot easier, though you have to ride further. Guys know their legs and when they are one bad stroke from blowing, so they sit and spin the longer course to avoid a complete blow up, or at best losing more time doing a shorter distance and/or adding to the recovery for the next day. Just wanted to let you know it is not for no reason some guys go wide..
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [monty] [ In reply to ]
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wow, what an exciting stage.

would love to see the photo finish as it may have been a tire-width or less

and Nibbles getting exposed. Damn...
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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I agree. It's funny how those stages that you think are going to be ohh hum turn out to be pretty exciting.

The photo they showed of the finish on Universal Sports had the difference at about a tire.

I do think that if Horner had gone with Valverde when he attacked earlier and sat up. And IF, they could have stayed away, and worked well together. Then that could have been the difference between Horner being in red right now and not.

_________________________________________________
When all is said and done. More is usually said than done
Ba Ba Booey

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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [Turd Ferguson] [ In reply to ]
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well, there are still a few more days for Horner to claw back time, and when you get found out on the Angliru, well, that's a hell of a place to suffer. Besides, having Nibbles in red means Astana gets to pull the peloton, so there's also that, though i doubt this line of thought was in Horner's mind.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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Also, Astana's manager mentions that Nibbles is missing 15-20W on the extended climbs. Sounds like he was doing 6w/kg during the Giro and a bit lower now
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, and I hope Horner does. I'm rooting for the old fella to pull it off....knee all bandaged up and all.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [martman] [ In reply to ]
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I'm actually pulling for horner to close this with a win and be the oldest grand tour champ (will he be at 41?). Even a podium spot at his age is amazing.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [flyrunride] [ In reply to ]
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the last three days of the Vuelta are upon us. This should be good.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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I am all ready for the final climb today, & now have a meeting during the final climb, I wish I could pause my online feed
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [ChrisC42780] [ In reply to ]
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Great racing right now.

Suffer Well.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [jmh] [ In reply to ]
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great race and it's clear who has the legs and who doesnt!
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [GREG_n_SD] [ In reply to ]
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Great race? Who knows. Great spectacle? Definitely.

I'm having a hard time believing and have my doubts.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [GREG_n_SD] [ In reply to ]
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It really looks like Horner is going to win this. Wow.

My cycling knowledge brain is failing me...is Lemond the only other American to have won a Grand Tour? Making Horner the 2nd?

-Physiojoe

-Physiojoe
Instagram: @thephysiojoe
Cycling coach, Elite racer on Wooster Bikewerks p/b Wootown Bagels
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [Physiojoe925] [ In reply to ]
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We have till wait till Lemond and Horner go on Oprah before we know if any american has won a grand tour.

Maybe nobody ever won a grand tour? haha

Physiojoe925 wrote:
It really looks like Horner is going to win this. Wow.

My cycling knowledge brain is failing me...is Lemond the only other American to have won a Grand Tour? Making Horner the 2nd?

-Physiojoe



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
Quote Reply
Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [Physiojoe925] [ In reply to ]
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No, Andy Hampsten won the Giro.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [jmh] [ In reply to ]
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damn just read the recap on cycling news

I hope steephill or cyclingfans has video of the last 4km later today

I can't wait until Saturday, what an ending with the race still up for grabs!!

Best grand tour- I am officially sick of the TDF parade & nonsense
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [GREG_n_SD] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks, I knew I was forgetting one.

Horner would still be oldest to win grand tour, first American to win Vuelta...

-Physiojoe


GREG_n_SD wrote:
No, Andy Hampsten won the Giro.

-Physiojoe
Instagram: @thephysiojoe
Cycling coach, Elite racer on Wooster Bikewerks p/b Wootown Bagels
Quote Reply
Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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Until someone shows some solid evidence that Chris Horner is doping I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. And yes I'm 100% confident that he is rider #15, but that doesn't mean Levi was telling the truth (and unless I'm wrong he's the only rider who implicated him, and I find that odd, and I'd love to know the context of that conversation "Hey Levi did I mention I used EPO 3 years ago to prepare for TDS?"), and if he did dope then (which I wouldn't be a bit surprised if he did given the era), that doesn't mean he is now.

Regardless, it's been great racing.


echappist wrote:
Great race? Who knows. Great spectacle? Definitely.

I'm having a hard time believing and have my doubts.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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I don't blame you for having your doubts, here is my thoughts on Horner
I been a Horner fan since 2009 when I was still a believer in Lance & they were good teammates- Lance called him Redneck.

Horner Loves climbing, we know this. He loves the longer climbs. He hates time trialing.
He has always been a domestique except in the US races, which he has won or placed top 3
He always does well in the Spain races- even won once or twice- placed top 5 many times
In 2010 he was 9th in TDF- could have been higher but was always looking out for team leader
In 2011 he was setting up for a good TDF but crashed out
In 2012 he was babysitting Frank Schleck & with so many TT's he never had a chance
This year he started off great but the 30% climbs 3 times in the Tirreno-Adriatico & bad weather he messed up his knee

This years Vuelta is perfect for him- 1 team time trial with a great team, 1 TT which he didn't lose too much time & so much climbing
I feel this is the perfect equation for him, we are seeing the true form in Horner that has been held back in previous years being a domestique or too many Time trails which knocked him out of contention

I am a believer that this years results will stand the time
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [ChrisC42780] [ In reply to ]
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Chris Horner is something else, that's for sure!
http://gritandglimmer.com/...-ride-to-the-finish/

_______________________
"I believe that I'll finish." - Herb Brown (IMLP 2012)
"100 miles is not that far." - Karl Meltzer
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [ChrisC42780] [ In reply to ]
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wtf is up with the timing in this Vuelta. Seems like the Spaniards have a thing for Italians. Horner should clearly be in the lead after the time situation from stage 2, just hope it does not cost him the red jersey in the end. Come on Angliru.

Sella Bici Tuning

Turning your saddle into a work of art
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [SBT] [ In reply to ]
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How is it clear?
post your stopwatch log.

SBT wrote:
wtf is up with the timing in this Vuelta. Seems like the Spaniards have a thing for Italians. Horner should clearly be in the lead after the time situation from stage 2, just hope it does not cost him the red jersey in the end. Come on Angliru.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
Quote Reply
Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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they gave Mollema the same time yesterday when he clearly had 2-3 seconds-

Stage 4 results were definitely flawed
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [ChrisC42780] [ In reply to ]
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yesterday was borderline, he sat up before he crossed, the field kept sprinting. It was likely slightly more than 1 second but didn't matter in the GC classification so likely the officials decided the juice wasn't worth the squeeze.


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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [Physiojoe925] [ In reply to ]
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Well he's sure a lot closer now...3 seconds! That was an awesome last 2 k to watch. Thought he was in red for a while until I saw the final GC result.
He can do it. Nibali looked wasted at the end.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [martman] [ In reply to ]
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Wow.
Horner is climbing out of his mind ... and into red by Saturday?
That would be stunning.
Painful to see Nibbles struggle so badly at the end of today's stage, even though I wasn't cheering for him.
What a tour.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [caf0] [ In reply to ]
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wow exciting last 2 KM!!

Purito with the deserved victory & Horner back in red

Tomorrow will be epic!!
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [ChrisC42780] [ In reply to ]
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Hell yes Horner!
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [Kenny Powers] [ In reply to ]
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Kenny Powers wrote:
awesome
jackmott wrote:
Power13 wrote:
jackmott wrote:
You called him delusional. You were wrong :)


You know it is a 3 week race, right?


I have no doubt you will adopt whatever mental gymnastics are required to argue that he was not a contender in this race even if he should win it.

Looking forward to the next exchange here haha.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [Karaya0321] [ In reply to ]
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If Nibali has any blood bags sitting around now would be the time to use them....
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [furiousferret] [ In reply to ]
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furiousferret wrote:
If Nibali has any blood bags sitting around now would be the time to use them....

ouch.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [jmh] [ In reply to ]
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I sure wish this was available in Seattle. Way better than the tour! And then cycling news feed went down just as they hit the last climb today!!
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [Power13] [ In reply to ]
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Power13 wrote:
jackmott wrote:
Even before that he said he could win the Vuelta:

http://velonews.competitor.com/...to-the-vuelta_299936


He's delusional.....you don't suddenly develop into a GT contender @ 41. He has never once contended for a GC position in a GT. and if he does contend for the overall, there will be other reasons......like "15" of them. Wink


Mr Know-it-all was a bit wrong wasn't he. It's almost cute how "Power13" pretends like he knows what he's talking about.

Power13 wrote:
jackmott wrote:
He is contending, like he said he would.

Power13 wrote:

'Cuz taking the lead on day 3 is clearly the same thing as winning the Vuelta. OK, then.


Yeah, 'cuz every rider who holds a race lead after day 3 is "contending." Uh, OK.

His 9th place in the 2010 was largely due to one long break (w/ LA) and was allowed to go up the road because no one was a GC threat. And even then he still finished over 11' back.....that is not really contending. And to compare a ToC win to a GT is just silly. The peloton is filled with guys who can contest a 1 week race but not a 3 week race.

"Uh, OK."
Last edited by: hiphopster: Sep 13, 13 18:24
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [hiphopster] [ In reply to ]
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What I think is interesting about the Vuelta, and the entire cycling season, is that nobody seems capable of riding two grand tours without struggling (or just plain sucking in the second race). Cav had a poor tour after the Giro, Vini Nibbles is 20 watts off his Giro numbers...I can't think of a single rider to have dominating form in more than one GT.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [TriHanrahan] [ In reply to ]
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You can watch it on steephill tv for free.
Last edited by: GREG_n_SD: Sep 14, 13 4:37
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [grumpier.mike] [ In reply to ]
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grumpier.mike wrote:
What I think is interesting about the Vuelta, and the entire cycling season, is that nobody seems capable of riding two grand tours without struggling (or just plain sucking in the second race). Cav had a poor tour after the Giro, Vini Nibbles is 20 watts off his Giro numbers...I can't think of a single rider to have dominating form in more than one GT.

It's always been like that - 2 GT wins in the same season has only ever been done 17 times, and it's become increasingly rare as training methods and tactics have improved so that the overall level of competition is tougher. 3 weeks of GC racing is brutal, it takes a huge amount out of you. It's extremely difficult to recover from that and then peak again within the same season, unless you're strong enough (or the competition weak enough) that you can win while keeping a bit back spare. Or unless you have pharmaceutical help in aiding your recovery of course.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [cartsman] [ In reply to ]
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here we go, last climb!!
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [ChrisC42780] [ In reply to ]
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Nibals!
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [ChrisC42780] [ In reply to ]
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Whoa, hope that was a tactical decision to let nibs go.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [GREG_n_SD] [ In reply to ]
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Nibali got into Floyd stash of whiskey
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [USCoregonian] [ In reply to ]
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looks like it was tactical...Horner riding his own tempo
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [GREG_n_SD] [ In reply to ]
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This is great stuff. Will be interesting to see how much Tiralongo has left to help. He screwed up getting too far ahead.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [USCoregonian] [ In reply to ]
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yeah when they hit that climb with 5' I thought the same thing...we'll see, he may need a pacer once he gets dropped to keep his podium spot though.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [GREG_n_SD] [ In reply to ]
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The Angliru might be the best climb in cycling. This is incredible stuff
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [USCoregonian] [ In reply to ]
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That could be the final move!
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [GREG_n_SD] [ In reply to ]
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curtains
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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AWESOME!!! What an effort!
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [USCoregonian] [ In reply to ]
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wow edge of my seat the whole time, fantastic!!!
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [ChrisC42780] [ In reply to ]
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I wasn't able to stream the whole thing but I did see Valverde give Nibali a drink. Was Nibali getting assistance outside his team all day?

Bravo Horner!
Last edited by: furiousferret: Sep 14, 13 8:57
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [ChrisC42780] [ In reply to ]
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Gotta say congrats to Horner, and honestly not surprised he had the form, just glad to see him put it all together over 3 weeks. I remember 2-3 years ago arguing with someone about his GC potential....wish I could find that thread right now, though it was probably Power13 because my memory says it was the same argument..."you don't become a GC hopeful at 38/39"
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [GREG_n_SD] [ In reply to ]
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GREG_n_SD wrote:
yeah when they hit that climb with 5' I thought the same thing...we'll see, he may need a pacer once he gets dropped to keep his podium spot though.

i'd argue that it's horrible tactics by Astana today. Nibbles has shown himself to be stronger than Rodriguez, and there's not much difference between 2nd and 3rd place, all things considered.

Nibble's best chance today was to outsprint Horner for the bonus seconds. Maybe they discussed that at the meeting in the morning, maybe they didn't, but we are looking at a downhill run-in to the line, and assuming they mopped up the break (another miscalculation on Astana's part), it's perhaps the easier path for Nibali.


I'll go out on a limb and say that Nibbles hasn't always been the most tactical. He loves to attack, and there's nothing wrong with that, but often at the wrong times (from 50km in Lombardia 2011, on the downhill into the crosswind in LBL in 2012, possibly screwing Sagan out of a win in MSR in 2012, and in the WC in 2012). With his declining form, he should have exploited Horner's wanting to obtain a larger cushion (which would have mopped up most of the break), and tried to stay with Horner to the end and outsprint him...
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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I'd agree on paper your right, but Rodriguez said it best, It's not a math problem. Astana/Nibbles obviously had a plan based on his form and the climb and how he needed to approach it.

Having said that I agree with you, from our arm chair QB view it seemed like the wrong approach.

I doubt they'll offer any details on why they did that and why he attacked at 6k but it sure would be interesting to get that insight. I assume he wanted to try and break Horners will early then slowly build an advantage.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [GREG_n_SD] [ In reply to ]
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tbf, it's worked in the past, albeit in different conditions. He did it in Tirreno Adriatico in 2012 to none other than Chris Horner to seal the win, but those were under vastly different circumstances as he appeared much stronger. actually, technically he didn't take the Blue Jersey off of Horner, but he chipped off enough of Horner's advantage and finished it off in the time trial.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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I think there were a couple of ways that Astana could have won, but that attack by Honer was so strong that I don't know if they would have worked. They could have waited for the sprint to get the bonus seconds. They could have also better managed the timing of Nibali's attacks and where his support was up the road.

I didn't get a good look at the attach by Honer, did anyone? Looks like he waited until Nabali was blocked off by the other two riders and the crowd and timed it perfectly for that. Maybe he knew exactly how many were left in the break and knew they were in bonus seconds territory and it was now or never.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [torrey] [ In reply to ]
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it was with 1.5k to go, and it really didn't look like an attack as much as Nibbles just cracked. I mean, Nibbles & Horner had a 15 second advantage over Piti when Nibbles was with Horner, and Piti basically rode back to Nibbles.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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I thought he won that in the TT, but regardless, you have to do something and I do appreciate bold tactics.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [torrey] [ In reply to ]
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one problem with the concept of better managing his attacks and linking up his support is I doubt radios where much help at that point. I'm speculating of course, but I'd be surprised if they knew exactly where everyone was during once they were a few k into that climb...that said, I'm still surprised he tried to go at 6k.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [GREG_n_SD] [ In reply to ]
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Great to see Horner do it. It is a John Elway type moment to a worthy champion and a funny guy. I saw Horner at the swami's ride once, he was nothing but nice and entertaining. I am also happy to see an American win a GT again, hopefully we can get a few more contenders in the next couple years too.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [GREG_n_SD] [ In reply to ]
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Man today was Epic, and not just talking about Horner, the whole scene with the fog, the TV Moto losing the red jersey for a K or so, the Stage winner having to radio his team car if anyone was behind him.... and of course the Nibali/Horner battle wow, truly an epic stage.
For a while there it did look like Nibali would actually take it...

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http://www.instagram.com/cyclewise
Last edited by: trener1: Sep 14, 13 11:17
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [trener1] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah agreed, all things combined one of the best stages I've seen in recent times.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [Karaya0321] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah Brian whenever he's in SD he always makes the group rides and couldn't be more down to earth and easy going. He doesn't even break everyone off when he pulls....he just sits up there for 5 minutes vice 20 seconds.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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echappist wrote:
Nibble's best chance today was to outsprint Horner for the bonus seconds. Maybe they discussed that at the meeting in the morning, maybe they didn't, but we are looking at a downhill run-in to the line, and assuming they mopped up the break (another miscalculation on Astana's part), it's perhaps the easier path for Nibali.

But Nibbles hadn't shown that ability of late, to stay with Horner to the end of a climb. He probably didn't think that possible with Horner's current form.
I was impressed with how many times Nibbles attacked before finally collapsing.
Very exciting finale, very entertaining tour.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [Power13] [ In reply to ]
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I don't know buddy. After reading the secret race, it is possible that Horner was clean all those years. He was mainly on US continental teams during the biggest dopage years in European cycling. Horner was always a good all-rounder, and one-day rider but was always in support role when moving up to intercontinental world tour teams. Also, he was critical of Armstrong during his tenure, and how his team just rode to the front of the hardest stage and just stayed there controlling the whole race. Hamilton did testify in his book that you can be a good one-day or small stage race rider in his era without doping. The biggest red flag is that he has been on Astana / Radioshack since 08. But, even though we know that the top riders (Lance, Contador, Leipheimer, and lances old guard, etc.) were on those teams, it is hard to imagine that doping was as systematic. Particularly after 06, 07 - Operation Puerto and other doping scandals, including the TDF winner getting his title taken away. Floyd, Ullrich, Basso, Vino, Valverde, Hamilton, Rasmussen, basically the biggest non-Lance names getting kicked out. Oh, and team Astana didn't partake in the 08 tour either because of involvement of Leipheimer and Contador in Puerto. So it is possible that while Horner started at Astana, doping wasn't the norm anymore, at least not for the supporting riders. I found this site a while ago (http://cypresstrees.blogspot.com/...ce-top-10-clean.html), and it is interesting, and probably somewhat accurate. If you look at it, you can see that Horner could have always been a GC contender. Kind of sad that if Horner didn't dope all those years, that he could have been considered a "Team Leader" and possibly placed and won some grand tours. But, if you weren't doping and always rode in support, no-one would ever consider you. So it is definitely possible. And, considering the names that Horner just beat, - Valverde (Tour, Vuelta double), Roche (Tour, Vuelta double), Jouquin (Tour, Vuelta), and Nibali (Giro, Vuelta, and said he wasn't in form before Vuelta. Considering all that, and the fact that Horner won and podiumed a lot of 1 Week US Stage races in the last decade (and more recently in one-week European stage races as the sport has allegedly gotten cleaner), Horner on top is definitely a REALISTIC FEAT. And, if he had never doped all those years, no one deserves this more than him.

Running is the best source of fiber that I know of...
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [TriChris14] [ In reply to ]
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Its def. easy to criticize Astana's tactics when he lost. But trying to out sprint Horner at the line would not have worked. Horner has proven to go full gas with about 1K to go previously and so far no one has been able to go with him when he has. They had only one chance to attack him early to weaken him....it didn't work.

What a great stage and race for Horner. So happy to see him to finally get the support from the beginning of such a big race!

http://www.fraserbicycle.com/
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [caf0] [ In reply to ]
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caf0 wrote:
echappist wrote:

Nibble's best chance today was to outsprint Horner for the bonus seconds. Maybe they discussed that at the meeting in the morning, maybe they didn't, but we are looking at a downhill run-in to the line, and assuming they mopped up the break (another miscalculation on Astana's part), it's perhaps the easier path for Nibali.


But Nibbles hadn't shown that ability of late, to stay with Horner to the end of a climb. He probably didn't think that possible with Horner's current form.
I was impressed with how many times Nibbles attacked before finally collapsing.
Very exciting finale, very entertaining tour.

Then why expect to be able to ride away in the first place? At the end of the day it's an equation of watts, and if he can't even sit in when Horner eats wind for him, how can he expect to ride away?

Nibbles looked strong, and you wonder if instead of putting in what must have been 6-7 surges he just stuck to Horner, whether he'd have had a better outcome
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [PPI] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah definitely. I wasn't expecting it at all, was going to originally root for Nibali and Purito. But, was pleasantly suprised when Horner came into the mix. Kind of makes me imagine what could have been if cycling wasn't as dirty in the past. But, at the same time extremely happy for Horner, and hopefully this shows we have turned a corner. And, it is a great way to see him ride into sunset! Though I am sure he will win more races. Less-likely a grand tour, but he has recently stated that he wants to be in the sport for a while. Best year I have ever seen for the three Grand Tours.

Running is the best source of fiber that I know of...
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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He may have expected to lose, but hoped for better.
If you can get a gap, get away, you never know...and he did get that gap for a while...
I think his chances simply weren't very good no matter what card he played.
Didn't he have a teammate up the road to help?
Had he simply hung onto Horner's wheel and cracked as in previous stages, some would likely criticize him for not really trying.
You may be correct, that might be the smarter play.
I don't fault him for his approach, though, under the circumstances.
And my opinion, a nerd recreational cyclist, counts for naught anyway :)

It certainly was exciting.

Cheers,
Cathy


echappist wrote:
caf0 wrote:
echappist wrote:

Nibble's best chance today was to outsprint Horner for the bonus seconds. Maybe they discussed that at the meeting in the morning, maybe they didn't, but we are looking at a downhill run-in to the line, and assuming they mopped up the break (another miscalculation on Astana's part), it's perhaps the easier path for Nibali.


But Nibbles hadn't shown that ability of late, to stay with Horner to the end of a climb. He probably didn't think that possible with Horner's current form.
I was impressed with how many times Nibbles attacked before finally collapsing.
Very exciting finale, very entertaining tour.


Then why expect to be able to ride away in the first place? At the end of the day it's an equation of watts, and if he can't even sit in when Horner eats wind for him, how can he expect to ride away?

Nibbles looked strong, and you wonder if instead of putting in what must have been 6-7 surges he just stuck to Horner, whether he'd have had a better outcome
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [GREG_n_SD] [ In reply to ]
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GREG_n_SD wrote:
I remember 2-3 years ago arguing with someone about his GC potential....wish I could find that thread right now, though it was probably Power13 because my memory says it was the same argument..."you don't become a GC hopeful at 38/39"

I would be interested to hear the argument about a pro riders GC potential when they are 39. Then at age 42 they get even better. By the time he is 50, he probably wins worlds.

I want to believe it, but it goes against everything we know about aging and performance potential. Is Horner some absolute freak of nature, who was just being held back all these years because everyone else was doping? I hope so.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [TriChris14] [ In reply to ]
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Some thoughts on your post. ....I am skeptical when a guy at 41 sets tha VAM record a couple of days ago. Nibali said he was at 430 watts when Horner road away. .............Still think Horner was rider 15.................Funny how last year he was left off the squad, forgot what race off the top of my head, then when He defended Bruyneel and said publiclly there was no doping done, Bruyneel suddenly puts him back on the team.
I would love to see Horner as clean and finally getting his due, but the dude is setting climbing records at the end of a grand tour at 41? I guess its the state of cycling with being skeptical....again
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [trener1] [ In reply to ]
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Totally agree. One of the most exiting stages in a grand tour in a while. The crowd was crazy in that fog too.
Horner is the man.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [Kenney] [ In reply to ]
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That race was TDF and it was likely pressure from the American sponsors to have an American on the squad and clearing the air with regards to training vs racing. Horner commented on both of those points in an interview at one point. WRT the VAM. Well lots of things could have influenced that and when everyone is speculating at his w/kg when they really have no idea what he's weighing that's totally unreliable as well.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [GREG_n_SD] [ In reply to ]
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That was "likely".......but with what we know now, you think Horner really thought Bruyneel and everyone was clean? Really? As far as VAM. sure that is just one data point, which could possibly be explained. That is always the case, every "single" data point can be explained......Is it proof? No, but the fact is he still climbing better than anyone in the world right now at 41. Where are all those single day mnt stage wins over the past 20 yrs?
I honestly do not know, but I ain't putting my head in the sand
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [Kenney] [ In reply to ]
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Oh no, and based on what he said I think he gave political answers that at the time wouldn't get him sued or fired. I'm sure he didn't see doping on those teams because by the time he rode for them the doping controls had tightened up and was becoming less accepted. Not to mention I'm sure the openness at Astana wasnt the same say postal/discovery.

Make no mistake, if they come out in 5 days or 5 years with solid proof that Horner doped I will not be shocked, I'd be disappointed but not shocked. Nothing professional athletes do could shock me. One of the many reasons I don't encourage my kids or any others to view them as Heros/role models etc. but that's another story.

I do give him the benefit of the doubt though and regardless it was great racing the last few weeks.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [GREG_n_SD] [ In reply to ]
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I am trying to figure out which is more surprising, Horner winning the Vuelta or Radioshack winning a Grand Tour this year.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [Kenney] [ In reply to ]
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Well, climbing better than anyone at the Giro.

Kenney wrote:
That was "likely".......but with what we know now, you think Horner really thought Bruyneel and everyone was clean? Really? As far as VAM. sure that is just one data point, which could possibly be explained. That is always the case, every "single" data point can be explained......Is it proof? No, but the fact is he still climbing better than anyone in the world right now at 41. Where are all those single day mnt stage wins over the past 20 yrs?
I honestly do not know, but I ain't putting my head in the sand



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [chaparral] [ In reply to ]
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Touché. RS having a winner who isn't Cancellara is always a shocker.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [GREG_n_SD] [ In reply to ]
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Agree with all but this................................He might not of "seen" doping on those teams but He has been a pro for so long and through the meat of an era, he knew who and who was not doping.
I truly hope he is clean,,,,,and unfair even this haunting speculation. ...But they all kept their mouth shut 10 yrs ago and know all are paying with the unfair painting of a broad brush
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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jackmott wrote:
better than anyone at the Giro.

This is an important point.
Were this Le Tour, no way does Horner finish on top. Even over the exact same course.
The Vuelta is lesser.
Still huge win and props for Horner.
But it is lesser.
So much lesser that some forget its name :)
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [Kenney] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, assuming the people timing it timed it right, assuming the wind was relatively average, assuming the road wasn't smoother than usual, and assuming a lot of strong guys actually go up that climb full gas in races past....that would be meaningful.

There is a lot of power data coming from this race including horner and nibali. Of course those files could all be manipulated, but they don't tell a story of record w/kg






Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [chaparral] [ In reply to ]
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chaparral wrote:
I am trying to figure out which is more surprising, Horner winning the Vuelta or Radioshack winning a Grand Tour this year.

What is not surprising is the amount of victories Tyler Farrar had

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When all is said and done. More is usually said than done
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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ask and you shall receive.



425W for 16 minutes. I have no idea what this portends. One thing i will note though, is that Horner put up 435W when he won on Sierra Road in the 2011 Tour of California, except that was on stage 4, the first challenging stage of an one-week race as opposed to a Grant Tour.


for the record, i find veloclinic and a bunch of other places (cyclingnews clinic) to be somewhat irresponsible in their assessment as they just pretend the analysis (or rather, guestimate) is accurate when they are not. That, of course, does not mean what Horner did was clean, just that there's quite a bit of ignorance out there.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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was not meant as definitive proof.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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That implies about 6.1w/kg if it were a long climb.
which is about what he did on long climbs
and about what people could do on long climbs in the before time, the long long ago.


echappist wrote:
ask and you shall receive.



425W for 16 minutes. I have no idea what this portends. One thing i will note though, is that Horner put up 435W when he won on Sierra Road in the 2011 Tour of California, except that was on stage 4, the first challenging stage of an one-week race as opposed to a Grant Tour.


for the record, i find veloclinic and a bunch of other places (cyclingnews clinic) to be somewhat irresponsible in their assessment as they just pretend the analysis (or rather, guestimate) is accurate when they are not. That, of course, does not mean what Horner did was clean, just that there's quite a bit of ignorance out there.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah but he's got Redneck power.

Sella Bici Tuning

Turning your saddle into a work of art
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [ChrisC42780] [ In reply to ]
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ChrisC42780 wrote:
damn just read the recap on cycling news

I hope steephill or cyclingfans has video of the last 4km later today

I can't wait until Saturday, what an ending with the race still up for grabs!!

Best grand tour- I am officially sick of the TDF parade & nonsense

YouTube has tons of Vuelta coverage. Some stages are almost 2 hours of coverage and they have the last 4 or 5 km as well
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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Some people feel his weight is closer to 62 kg. Plus, these efforts are after a long stage- where you are easily 1kg or more lighter, due to fluid loss. Lastly, these efforts are nearly 3 weeks in a grand tour, where a body will produce 5-10% less power due to fatigue, reduced RBCs, etc. So, a fresh 6.1 w/kg climber (like the genetic freak - Lemond) was 5.7 w/kg climb 3 weeks into a grand tour. Cycling continues to do what it knows best...

Here's a good chart that shows the power output for the final climbs of grand tours- when fatigue / reduced output would have set in from a non-doping competitor. Lemond is the only athlete in this chart who has never been implicated of doping.

http://www.sportsscientists.com/...power-estimates.html

Note that for all years, the power output has been "normalized" by expressing it relative to body weight. This is important, because Indurain, for example, was much larger than Pantani. Pantani at a power output of 350W was thus the equivalent of Indurain riding at around 500W. So, to compare them, one either has to express power output per kilogram, or express it for a standard weight. I've taken the approach of expressing it relative to body weight. I'll post more on the effect of body weight on performance in the mountains once we get closer to Mont Ventoux.
Also, just as an addendum to the post in response to a comment by Will below, I must make the point that all the ABSOLUTE power outputs were calculated using the rider mass PLUS the mass of the equipment (bike and gear, assumed at 9kg for calculations), and then expressed relative to rider weight (see footnote).


It makes for some interesting reading - Greg Lemond averaged 5.7 W/kg on the final climbs during both his Tour wins. Then Indurain started off with an average power output of 5.3 W/kg, followed by 4.91 W/kg, and then it began to climb, so much so that when Indurain won his fifth Tour in 1995, his average power output on the final climbs of the mountain stages was an incredible 6.35 W/kg. (Just to labour the point - if you want to work out the ABSOLUTE power output for each rider, just multiply the power I've shown by the rider's mass. For Indurain, multiply by 80kg and you get a value of 508W)

That high power output was maintained for the next four years, Riis averaged 6.47 W/kg, Ullrich 6.33 W/kg, and then Marco Pantani set the 'record' when he averaged 6.63 W/kg during the 1998 Tour.
jackmott wrote:
That implies about 6.1w/kg if it were a long climb.
which is about what he did on long climbs
and about what people could do on long climbs in the before time, the long long ago.


echappist wrote:
ask and you shall receive.



425W for 16 minutes. I have no idea what this portends. One thing i will note though, is that Horner put up 435W when he won on Sierra Road in the 2011 Tour of California, except that was on stage 4, the first challenging stage of an one-week race as opposed to a Grant Tour.


for the record, i find veloclinic and a bunch of other places (cyclingnews clinic) to be somewhat irresponsible in their assessment as they just pretend the analysis (or rather, guestimate) is accurate when they are not. That, of course, does not mean what Horner did was clean, just that there's quite a bit of ignorance out there.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [mcycle] [ In reply to ]
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you have to remember that this was a short climb on Pena, all things considered. Draw conclusions after files from today is released.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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You can extrapolate this 16 min climb back to a longer climb, and the w/kg would still be well north of 5.7 and firmly in the extraterrestrial range. Cycling, more of the same, but at least its a fun show to watch. It's funny watching a grandpa beating froomes best ascent time. I wonder if Lance is blushing.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [mcycle] [ In reply to ]
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fwiw, 5.7 isn't the "magic number"

Vaughters was quoted as saying it's more around 6.0.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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5.7 at the end of a tour. 6.0 / 6.1 at the beginning of a grand tour.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [mcycle] [ In reply to ]
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mcycle wrote:
5.7 at the end of a tour. 6.0 / 6.1 at the beginning of a grand tour.


I would expect less falloff in the Vuelta, where the stages are shorter. The Angliru stage was only 88 miles and under 4 hours. A similar stage in the TdF would be well over 100 miles.
Last edited by: markg: Sep 15, 13 9:37
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [Kenney] [ In reply to ]
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Being skeptical is ok too. Cycling should be scrutinized. But, Horner did finish 13th at the Tour last year, so if he didn't partake in the Vuelta that may be why. Also, the previous year he had a bad crash, and was out of contention for a while. With regard to Nibali, he said that he wasn't in top form starting this Tour, and he also made a crazy early break at over 7k to go. As, in most recent Tours in memory such breaks, if they are premature, won't go unpunished. Nibali made a few flurry of attacks after that as well. Attacks that could of easily burned his matches, and that Horner covered in Froomey style. I would love to see the data on Nibali's 3-20 second surges, and how much that could sap that athletes power in the event they are reeled back in. Unfortunately, there is no concrete evidence of how much this can hurt on athlete in the long run, but, everyone who has raced know there are only so many matches you have. When Nibali cracked, he definitely slowed according to the video. He might have been riding 430, but he definitely backed off. Horner didn't really go any faster it seemed, rather Nibali fell apart. Sure I am somewhat skeptical about it as well, it is hard not to be. But, in an age where the winning-est athlete has been caught and given a life sentence, it is hard to see that everyone in the peloton would be that stupid to continue doping. The reason it was so prevalent in the past is that no-one got caught, and if your competitors were doing it and getting off scott free, you were likely to do it too. Now, that many, if not most athletes got caught in the last 7 years, it is hard to imagine that doping would be as trendy in professional cycling, and as systematic. Because clearly if you are on something now, you can be caught ten years down the line.

I will hope that Horner is clean and use the information I know of him to help establish that. Plus, since the shit hit the fan in the last few years from all the caught dopers who are informing agents of other dopers, Horner's name hasn't been discredited yet. Though there will always be information out there no matter how clean an athlete is to discredit him or her, such as his loyaly to Bruyneel (maybe he didn't know Bruyneels dark side as he joined his squad in Lance round 2). Also, the fact that he backed Lance and Bruyneel in recent years (even as recent as after Armstrong was stripped) might suggest he was clean. Because why would he back the captain of the sinking Armstrong ship, unless he didn't really now it was all the captains fault. Just like there is information on every dirty athlete to make him or her look clean. I will believe that Horner is the former, unless proven otherwise. Because even in the darkest days of cycling, there were probably some clean athletes as well.

Running is the best source of fiber that I know of...
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [TriChris14] [ In reply to ]
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Well I do not wish to drag his name throught the dirt so instead of posting I for example, private messaged Jack, with a post. ..............I do think all the cyclists that were around 13 tyrs ago knew...........Why would someone after the busts and publicity? .Not directed toward Horner at all.............but right after Festina what happened? Right after and even during Puerto what happened?......but enough of this. I do not plan to post more and beat a dead horde to death with out more substantial eveidence. Whats been said is enough. .Horner could of hit the perfect storm of peak form and others mistakes....
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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I don't know what to think about Horner but I'm liking Nibali more and more after. He has grit and doesn't give up, going all the way to cracking himself. His aggressiveness might hurt him at times but he certainly makes it exciting to watch.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [Kenney] [ In reply to ]
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On a lighter note, my vuelta has been made. Don't know If you guys watch on universal sports or not but they have been answering questions from twitter all vuelta long. And low and behold they have scraped enough of the bottom of the barrel and read my twitter question. I asked if yesterday's final climb was the most chaotic moments in pro cycling. And if not what was.

Pretty sure people are going to be asking me for my autograph

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When all is said and done. More is usually said than done
Ba Ba Booey

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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [Turd Ferguson] [ In reply to ]
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I'll ask due to your sig line..............................but to hijack the thread, what you think of an IM the same year after an 100 ultra. How many weeks min to recover then train bike swim before bringing back the run...............I am 53 and do to compete against myself so my IM goal would be around 12 to 12:30
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [grumpier.mike] [ In reply to ]
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ChrisC42780 wrote:
damn just read the recap on cycling news

I hope steephill or cyclingfans has video of the last 4km later today

I can't wait until Saturday, what an ending with the race still up for grabs!!

Best grand tour- I am officially sick of the TDF parade & nonsense


http://www.rtve.es/...a-ciclista-a-espana/

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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [Carl Spackler] [ In reply to ]
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Horner set 2nd fastest time ever up angrilu climb, on the second to last day of the tour. That's a head scratcher, as the people he beat on the all time list, many have served bans. Time to go get his favorite beet juice.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [mcycle] [ In reply to ]
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Not a Horner apologist (though I'd really love for him to be clean) and what I'm about to say is a synthesis of things I've read in various places.

It really may not be all that surprising that Horner had this kind of Vuelta. He's always been a strong climber. But he's suffered a lot of ill-timed injuries, he's always sucked at time trials and he's always had to ride the grand tours in service of others. This time around was a rare harmonic convergence of good health, good form, him being designated the supported team leader and (perhaps as important as anything) a race that did not include a long time trial near the very end to knock him off his game.

Here's hoping it's legit!
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [bobby11] [ In reply to ]
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I've been a big Chris Horner fan for many years. Wonderful to see him pull it off at age 42.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [mcycle] [ In reply to ]
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Is that like extrapolating an IM time from an Olympic time? Where did you learn this extrapolation method anyways, Twitter University? Come on, it's not a math equation and any extrapolation is really speculation.

mcycle wrote:
You can extrapolate this 16 min climb back to a longer climb, and the w/kg would still be well north of 5.7 and firmly in the extraterrestrial range. Cycling, more of the same, but at least its a fun show to watch. It's funny watching a grandpa beating froomes best ascent time. I wonder if Lance is blushing.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [GREG_n_SD] [ In reply to ]
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Yep, Horner is old. Yes, he was a teammate of that guy. Yes, Horner, Levi and that guy hung out a lot.

But for me what is most incredible is the at Grand Tour was won by a guy with that many spacers on his bike!

Suffer Well.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [bobby11] [ In reply to ]
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Just thought I'd throw this out, since I haven't seen it mentioned yet.
According to Phil Chapman, Horner's power data "is only slightly better in the Vuelta compared to the Tour 2010" (see quote from wattage email group below).
According to the UCI's doping suspicious list leaked from 2010 TdF based off individual biological passport data (http://www.cyclingnews.com/...-2010-tour-de-france), Horner rated a zero on the index. Not suspicious in the slightest.

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    Phil Chapman Sep 14 06:01PM -0700

    Having collected Horner's data over the years for my lectures to show sport
    science students what pro cyclists can do, I have to agree with Hunter.
    Nothing much has changed in terms of Horner's power performance. His power
    is only slightly better in the Vuelta compared to the Tour 2010 on the
    Tourmalet stage behind Schleck and Contador. At a reported 65kg this puts
    his FTP (for a full hour!) in the 6.0-6.1 W/kg range. Quite physiologically
    reasonable.

    Having said that, this is a loooong way from the new 6.5W/kg top rung
    espoused by Hunter, for a Grand Tour winner.

    Cheers

    Phil

Last edited by: caf0: Sep 15, 13 16:56
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [jmh] [ In reply to ]
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jmh wrote:
Yep, Horner is old. Yes, he was a teammate of that guy. Yes, Horner, Levi and that guy hung out a lot.

But for me what is most incredible is the at Grand Tour was won by a guy with that many spacers on his bike!

91 years since a GT was won by a 36-yr-old (Fermin Lambot), and no one older than that has won one till today.

Let's give CH the benefit of the doubt for a few posts . . . . I wasn't able to watch the race, so can some of you velominati explain the tactics/strategy/teamwork/nutrition/training/acclimation to course/opposition that enabled him to beat the field?

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What are you people, on dope?

—Mr. Hand
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [caf0] [ In reply to ]
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caf0 wrote:
Just thought I'd throw this out, since I haven't seen it mentioned yet.
According to Phil Chapman, Horner's power data "is only slightly better in the Vuelta compared to the Tour 2010" (see quote from wattage email group below).
According to the UCI's doping suspicious list leaked from 2010 TdF based off individual biological passport data (http://www.cyclingnews.com/...-2010-tour-de-france), Horner rated a zero on the index. Not suspicious in the slightest.

I don't think anyone posted this article from before the 2011 Tour of California, where Horner said he dropped 10 lbs from 150 to 140 lbs (63.6 Kg)
http://velonews.competitor.com/...our-de-france_176735
During his layoff for his knee injury, I will bet that he did the same sort of dietary prep to come into the Vuelta lean and mean.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [scofflaw] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not sure if troll....but


1) Astana and Nibali have come out and said that Nibali is not riding at his best. In fact, his power is about 5% down (10-20w) from what it was in the Giro.

2) The other big competition, Purito and Valverde rode a tough Tour and are pretty exhausted. While they did perform pretty well, they are certainly not in the best shape.

3) Niabli began to unravel in the third week. He began to cede time to most riders in the last bit of the Pyrenees. Not much time, but little bits. the other riders could smell the blood in the water.

4) There was only one TT and it featured a climb.

5) Horner was consistent throughout the race. He even benefited from not being a favorite on 2 stages where he made large time gains early on from attacking and the others letting him ride away.

6) Niabli had the leaders jersey pretty early on (on and off). With many summit finishes, it took quite some time for him to get back to the hotel to rest/recover. This could account for #3.

7) Horner started the Vuelta fresh and had peaked specifically for this event. He had to shine as his contract was going to run out soon. Other GC men peaked for other events and this was simply a way to finish off the year/run in for worlds.

8) Nibali was forced pretty early to have to respond to a number of hard attacks from Purito and Valverde, as he had to defend the jersey. Horner very rarely had the responsibility to do so.



And to the poster earlier about the Angliru time, look at the video. There is a tailwind for most of the climb, and from the flags a pretty strong one too. I wouldn't be surprised if it did get close to breaking a record. I'm not saying Horner never partook in anything in his past, but having met the guy, he is as honest and charismatic as they come. I would be very surprised if he did purposely dope for this event. I just can't see him doing it.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [Ghost234] [ In reply to ]
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I spent more than an hour interviewing him for an article once. I can say this: as far as racing is concerned, he is very strategically savvy and you can see it when he's out on the road against other riders and I think you saw it on Angliru where he repeatedly reeled Nibali back in slowly, never going so hard as to blow up. I think it's a great win and I hope to see him on a team mixing it up again next year.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [Ghost234] [ In reply to ]
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Great post.

Does Horner publishing his Bio Passport data help anyone's feelings about Horner being clean?

http://www.chrishornerracing.com/

The wife and I were having a discussion about this - if you were a young athlete, why would you consider cycling as a career if you knew you would get accused of doping and there was nothing you could do to prove you weren't? Could you imagine if every touchdown or sack was accompanied by a chorus of doping accusations? Even track runners don't have to deal with this, and they have more than proven that they can't be believed.

Why only cycling?
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [FisH2O] [ In reply to ]
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FisH2O wrote:
Great post.

Does Horner publishing his Bio Passport data help anyone's feelings about Horner being clean?

http://www.chrishornerracing.com/

The wife and I were having a discussion about this - if you were a young athlete, why would you consider cycling as a career if you knew you would get accused of doping and there was nothing you could do to prove you weren't? Could you imagine if every touchdown or sack was accompanied by a chorus of doping accusations? Even track runners don't have to deal with this, and they have more than proven that they can't be believed.

Why only cycling?

AFAIK, no one is accusing TJVG, Talansky, Stetina, mini-Phinney, or any of the other young Americans of doping.

As for the biopassport, i don't know enough to comment.

As to why only cycling, seems a bit of a red herring to ask. Perhaps fans actually care? Perhaps because sponsors don't want their names to be sullied (which can lead to either massive cover-ups or actual meaningful reforms)?
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [FisH2O] [ In reply to ]
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FisH2O wrote:
Great post.

Does Horner publishing his Bio Passport data help anyone's feelings about Horner being clean?

http://www.chrishornerracing.com/

That's really a great move.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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echappist wrote:
FisH2O wrote:
Great post.



AFAIK, no one is accusing TJVG, Talansky, Stetina, mini-Phinney, or any of the other young Americans of doping.


As for the biopassport, i don't know enough to comment.

As to why only cycling, seems a bit of a red herring to ask. Perhaps fans actually care? Perhaps because sponsors don't want their names to be sullied (which can lead to either massive cover-ups or actual meaningful reforms)?

True, though they aren't out there dropping people in European races. I'd bet if TJVG or Talansky dropped Contador or any of the other favorites, there'd be a huge amount of doping calls. Froome is pretty young and couldn't take a step without any doping comments, strangely none for Quintana in the TDF, or for Hesjedal in last years Giro for that matter. Or for Nibali after his move to Astana.

Selective anti-doping sentiment?
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [FisH2O] [ In reply to ]
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FisH2O wrote:
True, though they aren't out there dropping people in European races. I'd bet if TJVG or Talansky dropped Contador or any of the other favorites, there'd be a huge amount of doping calls. Froome is pretty young and couldn't take a step without any doping comments, strangely none for Quintana in the TDF, or for Hesjedal in last years Giro for that matter. Or for Nibali after his move to Astana.

Selective anti-doping sentiment?

Selective? I doubt it.

If you go to cyclingnew's clinic, all three were scrutinized. That said, yhe clinic is like the stopped clock that reports the correct the right time twice a day as everyone gets questioned, but those three in particular were all under the microscope.

I know that i voiced my concerns regarding Quintana as he was probably doing 6.3 on the last climb of the tour (extrapolated from Piti's SRM data). And you never truly trust things from Global Cycling Project for Make Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan given the man running the show.

Ryder's biopassport from the Giro was analyzed on veloclinic, and nothing conclusive could be drawn.
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Re: 2013 Vuelta Thread (yes, there will be spoilers in spades) [bobby11] [ In reply to ]
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bobby11 wrote:
Not a Horner apologist (though I'd really love for him to be clean) and what I'm about to say is a synthesis of things I've read in various places.

It really may not be all that surprising that Horner had this kind of Vuelta. He's always been a strong climber. But he's suffered a lot of ill-timed injuries, he's always sucked at time trials and he's always had to ride the grand tours in service of others. This time around was a rare harmonic convergence of good health, good form, him being designated the supported team leader and (perhaps as important as anything) a race that did not include a long time trial near the very end to knock him off his game.

Here's hoping it's legit!


Maybe he truly is a one of a kind cyborg, because he doesn't appear to have typical human physiologic responses to stage racing.

http://www.velonation.com/...passport-values.aspx
Last edited by: mcycle: Oct 18, 13 20:40
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