Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour
Quote | Reply
What is with so many teams pulling out shallow-rimmed, lightweight climbing wheels for the mountain stages? On most bikes it is not as if you need such wheels to get the bike down to the UCI 6.8 kg limit, and increased moment of intertia is a red herring. Simply substituting a deeper, more aero wheel would help gain time/save energy on the long transitions. The only team that seems to "get" this is Movistar, who mostly roll on Boras.

Just to help make the point, my Sram Red-equipped Cervelo R5 sits at 6.24 kg with Zipp 303s, a Rotor Flow SRM, including pedals and Garmin 510. This is way below the UCI limit and with some fairly aero wheels that still handle fine in the mountains. Only fancy components are the EE brakes, but even they only save a few grams compared to the standard Sram Red calipers.
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [duncan] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Assuming you are using Sram Red you have about the lightest std parts, a very light wheels set, brakes, and no idea about other stuff, but the Pros tend to favor strong stems/bars/saddles. You only are a pound below, other parts could easily but you above and then the light wheels make sense. Look up the chart on the RCA weight vs other frames. Some of frames in the Protour are very pretty heavy in particularly the Pinas.

It'd be shocking in Froome used AX rims then added weight elsewhere

Styrrell
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [duncan] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
duncan wrote:
What is with so many teams pulling out shallow-rimmed, lightweight climbing wheels for the mountain stages? On most bikes it is not as if you need such wheels to get the bike down to the UCI 6.8 kg limit, and increased moment of intertia is a red herring. Simply substituting a deeper, more aero wheel would help gain time/save energy on the long transitions. The only team that seems to "get" this is Movistar, who mostly roll on Boras.

Just to help make the point, my Sram Red-equipped Cervelo R5 sits at 6.24 kg with Zipp 303s, a Rotor Flow SRM, including pedals and Garmin 510. This is way below the UCI limit and with some fairly aero wheels that still handle fine in the mountains. Only fancy components are the EE brakes, but even they only save a few grams compared to the standard Sram Red calipers.

How dare you confront roadies with science!

__________________________

I tweet!

Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [duncan] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Froome's bike likely needs it (though, might well be faster uphill with 303s or 404s anyway...but they don't HAVE zipps so...)

Some riders don't want the risk of wind fluttering the front wheel on the descents. That problem gets a lot worse at 50mph downhill.

a deep rear at least would be fine, but hard to get over the idea that rotational weight slows you on a climb (it doesn't, but everyone believes it does)



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [duncan] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Do you really think with the millions of dollars Sky has spent on wind tunnel testing, rider positioning, route planing, nutrition, high altitude training, etc. that they would give up any advantage? Honestly if Sky is using climbing rims on this stage they are either faster up the mountain, or more comfortable for the riders and therefore allow them to climb faster.
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
jackmott wrote:
Froome's bike likely needs it (though, might well be faster uphill with 303s or 404s anyway...but they don't HAVE zipps so...)

Some riders don't want the risk of wind fluttering the front wheel on the descents. That problem gets a lot worse at 50mph downhill.

a deep rear at least would be fine, but hard to get over the idea that rotational weight slows you on a climb (it doesn't, but everyone believes it does)

Surely teams that make a big deal about applying science etc. would get this?

RE fluttering, the last few races I have done were all in the region where today's stage finished with numerous cols and no problems with fluttering from the 303s. (Bontrager Aeolus 5 which I also tested did seem to flutter a little, perhaps vortex shedding?)
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [aecky01] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Sky are handicapped straight away by the weight of the Pinarello. Run the models - same bike weight, more aero wheels wins.
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [styrrell] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
styrrell wrote:
Assuming you are using Sram Red you have about the lightest std parts, a very light wheels set, brakes, and no idea about other stuff

Stock Ergonova Pro bars and seatpost, 3T Ltd stem, Selle Italia SLR Kit Carbonia saddle, Sram Red cassette, two bottle cages (Bontrager XXX). Compared to AX lightness rimmed climbing specials Zipp 303s are not that light.
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [duncan] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I've been confused about this as well. I have absolutely no issues descending 60mph+ with 50mm carbon wheels at 135lbs. There is absolutely no reason they should ever go below that depth wheel. I find it extremely hard to believe they can't get the bike down to the limit with deeper carbon wheels with the budget they have.

My Strava | My Instagram | Summerville, SC | 35-39 AG | 4:41 (70.3), 10:05 (140.6) | 3x70.3, 1x140.6 | Cat 2 Cyclist
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [aecky01] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
 In this year's Giro I am convinced that Nibali ran a far better wheel choice for the uphill TT than Uran Uran. Indeed Nibali and his team seemed to make the most intelligent choices throughout the Giro (e.g. going for leg warmers rather than bare legs in the snow).
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [duncan] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
http://velonews.competitor.com/...at-alpe-dhuez_295850

My Strava | My Instagram | Summerville, SC | 35-39 AG | 4:41 (70.3), 10:05 (140.6) | 3x70.3, 1x140.6 | Cat 2 Cyclist
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [Creatre] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
So? Why add weights to a bike to reach the 6.8 kg minimum weight (which some teams must be doing) when you can run more aero components?

As an aside, still trying to work out what message the Sky DS is sending out here (bold added for emphasis):

Sky sport director Nicolas Portal brought Froome’s bike to the UCI’s tent, accompanied by a UCI commissaire. He was nonplussed by the checks, despite the late notice.
“Normally, they say nothing; it’s a surprise. They just say, ‘Ok, your bike, your bike, your bike,’ at the finish. It’s a gamble, just like anti-doping,†he said, adding that between his road and time trial bikes, Froome has had his equipment checked nearly 20 times this Tour.

Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [duncan] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
duncan wrote:
So? Why add weights to a bike to reach the 6.8 kg minimum weight (which some teams must be doing) when you can run more aero components?

As an aside, still trying to work out what message the Sky DS is sending out here (bold added for emphasis):




Sky sport director Nicolas Portal brought Froome’s bike to the UCI’s tent, accompanied by a UCI commissaire. He was nonplussed by the checks, despite the late notice.
“Normally, they say nothing; it’s a surprise. They just say, ‘Ok, your bike, your bike, your bike,’ at the finish. It’s a gamble, just like anti-doping,†he said, adding that between his road and time trial bikes, Froome has had his equipment checked nearly 20 times this Tour.


Why don't they wear aero/TT helmets and skinsuits when riding. It may look silly but it couldn't possibly hurt? Or is it against UCI rules?

Plus, getting rid of the gloves will help too.
Last edited by: jxj: Jul 19, 13 10:00
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [jxj] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
You have seen the whole of Team Saxo and OQS in Prevails, and numerous teams in teams in the Giro Air Attack, on the flatter stages haven't you?

As for skinsuits, they're not quite there, but most of the jerseys are so much tighter and streamlined than they used to be they're not so far off. Gloves have also become more streamlined, and are still useful in crashes.
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [duncan] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
It wouldn't surprise me to find that the braking surface is the key difference here. You see a light weight rim and they see an aluminium brake surface that gives better braking modulation on descents and poses little risk of over heating.
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [dgran] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Like the carbon AX lightness rims rumoured to be used by Sky?
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [dgran] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Also most teams run tubs, in which case problems of over heating are far diminished.
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [duncan] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Maybe so they can choose where they place the weight? Running a bike with uber light wheels/components and then dropping some weights down the seat tube (which some teams do) places the weight low and center...like a midengine sports car...good/better handling...just a theory

________________________________________________

"Running is real. The way I do it is the realest thing I know. It makes me weary beyond comprehension. But it also makes me free."
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [ZackCapets] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Possibilities: If you are, say, Chris Froome, the only time you are in the wind is in the later parts of the final climb (if even then), so the wheel weight vs aero tradeoff calculus is much different than it is for is for you and me. (On the other hand, Movistar seems to like attacking so maybe their choice favors their tactics . . .).

And, one advantage of making the bike as light as you can is that you get to choose where the extra weight goes when you bring it up to the limit. While I do not have the luxury of doing experiments to prove this, it is possible that if you take two bike/rider combinations that weigh exactly the same, the one with light wheels but ballast just above the bottom bracket will handle better on the descents than the one where that weight is somewhere else (e.g. in the wheels).
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [STP] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [jxj] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
lots and lots of guys in skinsuits this tour on the road stages, and lots and lots of aero helmets too.

Some guys gotta have lots of pockets to carry around water bottles and food though.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [tenkrunner] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
tenkrunner wrote:
Maybe so they can choose where they place the weight? Running a bike with uber light wheels/components and then dropping some weights down the seat tube (which some teams do) places the weight low and center...like a midengine sports car...good/better handling...just a theory

While that may sound plausible, the dynamics are determined by the bike/rider system. In this instance 90% of the system weight is from the rider, the rider that can move. So you have a system where effectivly 90% of the weight is movable ballast. Lets say you have 500 grams to get to 6.8kg. That is about 8% of the weight of the bike system. If you were able to put the weight exactly in the bottom bracket, that would be only 7cm lower than if you ran 500 gram heavier wheels. That would lower the cg by 8% of 7cm, so less than 7 mm. A 65kg rider would lower the cg of the system by more than that by lowering their cg by less than 1 cm. That is so in the noise.
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [duncan] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Go to somewhere like wrench science and build up a Pinarello with Dura-Ace 9000 and Dura-Ace tubulars and see for yourself. Heavier than the UCI limit. So lightweight wheels still make sense.
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [nightfend] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Except it's not just Sky. How about Contador who's always on Zipp 202s with a bike that could easily be under the 6.8 kg?
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [duncan] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
duncan wrote:
Except it's not just Sky. How about Contador who's always on Zipp 202s with a bike that could easily be under the 6.8 kg?

If I am his boss, and I am not, I have him on 404 rear 303 front and a Venge every climbing stage, and 808 rear 404 front for every non climbing stage.

But Contador is Contador's boss.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
jackmott wrote:
Some riders don't want the risk of wind fluttering the front wheel on the descents. That problem gets a lot LESS worse at 50mph downhill.
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [Ashburn] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Hmm, if that is your experience so be it. It has not been mine.

At the very least the consequences get worse =)

Anyway, it is a fact that some pro riders don't use deep front wheels on mountain stages for that reason. Even if it doesn't make sense.

Ashburn wrote:
jackmott wrote:
Some riders don't want the risk of wind fluttering the front wheel on the descents. That problem gets a lot LESS worse at 50mph downhill.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
Last edited by: jackmott: Jul 19, 13 11:47
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
It makes more aerodynamic sense to stick the deeper wheel in front and the shallower in back. Yeah, it looks stupid, but the rear wheel is more protected by the riders legs and the frame, and will have less impact on aerodynamics than the front.

Considering the marginal differences between a 404 and 808, I just stick with a pair of 404's for flatter stages, and 303's for the mountains.
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [nightfend] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Yes, but the bike can handle funny like that

But some pros did it at the usa national championship road race, so the concept is not entirely lost on pros.


nightfend wrote:
It makes more aerodynamic sense to stick the deeper wheel in front and the shallower in back. Yeah, it looks stupid, but the rear wheel is more protected by the riders legs and the frame, and will have less impact on aerodynamics than the front.

Considering the marginal differences between a 404 and 808, I just stick with a pair of 404's for flatter stages, and 303's for the mountains.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
If Contador feels more confident attacking descents on a Tarmac with 202's, he's faster than if he is less confident on a Venge with 404's.

Confident Alberto is faster than hesitant Alberto.

Now if you want to take his Tarmac away after Le Tour and say he will ride his Venge with 404's until he feels good on it, that's your call boss.

It's just too bad his Tarmac is too small for me, or I'd offer to take it. 202's and all.

/kj

http://kjmcawesome.tumblr.com/
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [kjmcawesome] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Part of my job as boss is to hack his brain and make him believe in the Venge and 404s!


kjmcawesome wrote:
If Contador feels more confident attacking descents on a Tarmac with 202's, he's faster than if he is less confident on a Venge with 404's.

Confident Alberto is faster than hesitant Alberto.

Now if you want to take his Tarmac away after Le Tour and say he will ride his Venge with 404's until he feels good on it, that's your call boss.

It's just too bad his Tarmac is too small for me, or I'd offer to take it. 202's and all.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Many pros, and Alberto is one of the toughest, don't really buy into the aero technology for anything beyond the TT, despite the work of a lot of people to convince them otherwise. Alberto has a Venge available to him that comes in right at 6.8 with 404's, but would rather have a 'lighter' bike despite the fact that the Venge would be faster. You will also notice that they customize his bike with Tune ultralight skewers and all sorts of other crazy little bits, only to then add more balast to get the bike back to 6.8...ultimately it's all mental, and no amount of data or even real world testing has been successful in convincing them otherwise. We've even done some stuff with power showing the difference aero makes during fast climbing, but there really isn't a lot of interest in hearing the message...it really isn't about handling or even descending, it's really all about 'light' and 'inertia' and what looks 'light' that is driving these decisions.

This is similar to him riding the 3 spoke wheel in the TT the other day, Manolo Saiz told him that was the fastest wheel when he was at Liberty Seguros (more than 10 years ago..) and despite having seen LOTS of data to the contrary, and even having tested it in the tunnel, he 'feels' that it's faster and looks at the success of Wiggins and Froome in TT's as 'proof' that it's faster. Though he then goes on to use a 3mm wider tire, in a considerably narrower fork, etc...in the end, he's making decisions based on the image of a time trialist he formed as a 19 year old neo-pro with the support enabling of his very old-world personal mechanic.

JackMott makes a really good point about the value of a technically oriented team boss being able to help the riders make better decisions, and back in the CSC days, Bjarne Riis was really amazing at convincing the riders to ride what the data suggested..or to at least consider the data, and by the end of that era, we had guys like Cancellara convincing the young pros that 808's were great for flat tour stages. I think the next generation will be more open minded to this and better educated as well, though at least for now, the young climbers coming up through the ranks are still looking at the world's best climbers as being guys who ride shallow rims, and ultimately it may be that archetype that is the toughest thing for us to get past.

http://www.SILCA.cc
Check out my podcast, inside stories from more than 20 years of product and tech innovation from inside the Pro Peloton and Pro Triathlon worlds!
http://www.marginalgainspodcast.cc
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [joshatzipp] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
That makes at least 2 credible cases I have heard of, where riders want the lighter bike, even when it isn't lighter.

Fascinating!



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I agree with you Jack. If I was the boss, every rider would be on the most aero 6.8 bike that they could have! If they have access to ZIPP then you have extremely aero wheels and bars they should and could be using. I think the 6.8 is just crazy to begin with but if you have to play with those rules then you go as aero as possible to save every watt possbile.
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [duncan] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
duncan wrote:
Sky are handicapped straight away by the weight of the Pinarello. Run the models - same bike weight, more aero wheels wins.

Froome's bike came in at exactly the UCI limit when they weighed it yesterday. The difference between 202's and 404's is only about 200 grams. I doubt it's the weight so much as the other compromises.

I love my 404's and use them in every race, but I don't love them nearly as much when I'm doing a technical descent as when I'm riding on the flats or even uphill.

I did a trip to Europe a couple of years ago. I've been racing since 1985 and done a ton of descending. Some of the descents that they do would be terrifying in a race. The last thing I would want would be to come into a sharp corner at 40+ and get pushed sideways a bit by the wind when I'm trying to set up that corner.

Similarly, I used to scoff at people worrying about front wheel choice in a TT until the day I got pushed into the OTHER LANE by a gust of wind while I was going 50 mph coming down Altamont pass near Livermore. Luckily nobody was coming the other way at the time.

It's real easy to be all arm chair scientist when you are watching on TV. It's a whole other thing when it's your ass that is going to hit the deck if it goes badly.

Kevin

http://kevinmetcalfe.dreamhosters.com
My Strava
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [nslckevin] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Froome's bike wasn't even on their sponsor's shallowest wheel, they had to go to AX-Lightness custom jobbies to get to the minimum weight.

it is HARD with that dogma.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [duncan] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
duncan wrote:
What is with so many teams pulling out shallow-rimmed, lightweight climbing wheels for the mountain stages?

It indicates that what you think are reasonable considerations may not be for the pros.

The only real consideration is will one choice of equipment give you an advantage that matters. For the pros there is so much noise in races that the math does not matter.
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [An Old Guy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
On the other hand, Movistar - who are also on the Dogma - either manage to reach minimum weight with the fairly deep Campy Boras or realise that minimum weight is not always the most critical factor, even in the mountains. Seemed to work out okay for Rui Costa! FWIW Movistar have also put a more sophisticated support structure in place and arguably its showing in their results: http://www.movistarteam.com/...-movistar-team-staff
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [nslckevin] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
nslckevin wrote:

I love my 404's and use them in every race, but I don't love them nearly as much when I'm doing a technical descent as when I'm riding on the flats or even uphill.

I did a trip to Europe a couple of years ago. I've been racing since 1985 and done a ton of descending. Some of the descents that they do would be terrifying in a race. ...

It's real easy to be all arm chair scientist when you are watching on TV. It's a whole other thing when it's your ass that is going to hit the deck if it goes badly.


Scientist? Yes. Armchair? Nope. I live next to the Alps, the *only* races I do nowadays are Alpine cyclo sportives with 3000 - 4000 m vertical of climbing and descending in each parcours. Heck, one of the last races I did started and finished in le Grand Bornand, yesterday's stage finish town, heading out over the Croix Fry and finally returning down the Columbier. Only difference to the pros is that we also have to contend with cars on the roads. Oh, and there's no minimum weight limit for us. On the bike I'm my own boss and for these races I *choose* to ride 303s, over something lighter. For, on transition sections between climbs, there will be an advantage. We're transitioning at 35-40 kph; typically the pros are 10 kph faster, and their transitions are mostly longer, so even more advantage.
Last edited by: duncan: Jul 19, 13 22:40
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [joshatzipp] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Josh, thanks for the insights! Basically confirms what I was suspecting, both on the value of aero even on climbs and on the "reasoning" behind choices but must be so ............. frustrating!
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [joshatzipp] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I know Lance (yes, he who should not be named) was not a Zipp sponsored athlete, but, from my understanding, he was very meticulous about data, right?

Then again, from all I have read, so are Froome and Wiggins, (and Lance) and yet they still used the tri-spoke.

I guess every one has their own way of "throwing the salt behind their backs" beliefs...

(Lance even had that "Narrowbike" which he ended up not using, though some guys did say it was faster).
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [Alfalfameister] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Lance was not a sponsored athlete of ours, but we did do his discs for many of his tours. As somebody who attended 2 different wind tunnel camps with him, I can attest that 1. he was not nearly as meticulous as the stories report. and 2. he was and is VERY loyal to Steve Hed. When we showed him the original 808 in 2003 it tested better than the Hed3 at all yaw angles below 20 in the bike, and yaw above 20 isn't exactly common when you're moving at 34mph, and he told me straight up, that he wouldn't ride it no matter what the data said.

You have to remember as well, that these guys are really probably justified in their skepticism of what manufacturers tell them. When a guy like Lance finds somebody he trusts like Steve, that goes a long way, and quite honestly, I can't blame them. It's sort of like a good friend of mine who makes these amazing socks (Swiftwick) and every year at the bike show I bet 10 companies come and tell me they make better socks than Swiftwick....but you know, I'm really happy with mine, and they are the best socks I've ever worn...and I have a history of destroying almost every other sock, so why risk it? There is a good story on VN today about aero helmet designs, and it really highlights some of the behavior that has plagued our industry in the tunnel for years, and one of the key problems is seeking the desired result. Ironically, my first experience with this was a test with Lance where the Nike guys brought the original Swiftspin or whatever it was called body suit. The claim was 3 minutes saved in 40k...to which John Cobb and I looked at each other very skeptically and john in his awesome Louisiana accent says 'Dayumn! Don't they realize at this level there ain't no more 3 minutes to be had!'. So we put the suit on Lance and run a yaw sweep and run the calcs and find ~18-20 seconds saved...not insignificant, but NOT 3 minutes. So then almost an hour was spent trying to get him to turtle his head, try slightly different shoulder positions etc, and finally, something akin to a minute-thirty savings was found and they have him hold it and pedal to take the data point. At that point, Lance was done, had no more desire to be in the tunnel, there had been no real time to do any actual positioning work and we spent the rest of the day running the bike only, but those guys got their 1:30 for that suit...which of course was completely irrational. The data showed that IF he held his head and shoulders in a completely unnatural way while pedaling for 30 seconds and you took a data point, he would save X drag... based on his otherwise normal position and clothing. This type of thing has historically been rampant in helmet testing, I cannot count the number of times I've seen a data point aborted because the rider 'moved his head'...but you know what? Riders move their heads when riding..that aborted data point was likely much more realistic than the others. Ideally, you would have a dummy with a prescribed range of head movement that was repeatable so you could compare designs.

Ultimately, for me, many of these experiences led to products. The whole 808 toroidal rim happened because I saw them testing the bikes in the tunnel with 19mm tires, but as the bike was running, Johan was in the control room telling me that he wouldn't allow anything narrower than 21mm. That sparked an entire product category for us. It is very hard to beat the Dupont/Spec/Hed3 with 19mm tires, but rather straightforward to do it with 21's. Comparing 3 spoke wheels to deep section wheels in bikes led us to really go deep into understsanding the flow interactions between frame components and wheels which led us to be the first guys really heavily running advanced CFD...which led to Firecrest and so on. Firecrest is another good example of building a mental prison cell...every wind tunnel in the world takes data by averaging values over a period of time, generally 30 seconds at 100-1000 samples per second. When we first saw harmonic effects in our CFD, we didn't understand it at all, but realized that the very nature of how we looked at the data was the problem...we were looking for the 'data point' when in fact there were harmonic effects in play that were outputting a 'data range'. Getting to the bottom of that changed the thinking of the whole industry.

But of course, all this highlights the natural skepticism and disbelief that plagues even the more technically minded athletes.

And finally, the narrow bike was without a doubt faster in every single test I know of. A great example of a rider getting off the bike and saying 'see, I told you, it's not fast' and the engineers with the data looking incredulously saying 'OMG that was the fastest we've ever seen you go at that power!' In the end, the 'feel' of the rider generally wins that discussion. Now the real money to be made is in figuring out exactly what that 'feeling' is that makes people feel fast or slow. Pro's talk endlessly about 'sensations' and if we could isolate THAT we'd really be onto something!

http://www.SILCA.cc
Check out my podcast, inside stories from more than 20 years of product and tech innovation from inside the Pro Peloton and Pro Triathlon worlds!
http://www.marginalgainspodcast.cc
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [An Old Guy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
An Old Guy wrote:
For the pros there is so much noise in races that the math does not matter.

That's probably the dumbest thing I've ever read.
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [joshatzipp] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Can you elaborate a bit more on the "harmonic" effects? Are they associated the "vortex shedding" that you've previously mentioned?
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [asad137] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
asad137 wrote:
An Old Guy wrote:
For the pros there is so much noise in races that the math does not matter.


That's probably the dumbest thing I've ever read.

I guess that Jack Mott agrees with you. Good company.

The problem is that you are comparing individual effeorts with group racing.

Compare a energy cost of a solo rider on aero wheels to the chasing peloton. Drafting benefits are much greater than aero wheel benefits. Aero wheels don't matter for the peloton.

Just watch the pros race. Guys at the front have high CdAs. The drafting is ragged at best. Very little aero matters to them.

Doing the wrong math as you and Jack Mott seem to be doing leads to the wrong conclusions.

I am not going to do the correct math. Too much noise in a bike race to do a good model.
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [duncan] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
What is with so many teams pulling out shallow-rimmed, lightweight climbing wheels for the mountain stages?

Actually this is a case where their choices might make sense.

1) A wide and rounded shallow rim will have good aero properties, and will only give up a significant amount at high yaw... where you'd rather not deal with deep rims anyway, in the pack or on descents.

2) The lower inertia can be a slight benefit if you are doing a lot of accelerating to cover attacks.

Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [joshatzipp] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I've encountered similar problems with guys I ride with. One races with hardcase tires and thick butyl tubes on his 13.5 lb bike... because tires don't really matter.

I guess for those of us that "believe" in science, it's hard to fathom why someone would be devoted to a product based on old wives tales and voodoo, when the test data is readily available. Why is it so hard wrap your mental game around the product that really *is* the fastest?
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [An Old Guy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
An Old Guy wrote:
asad137 wrote:
An Old Guy wrote:
For the pros there is so much noise in races that the math does not matter.


That's probably the dumbest thing I've ever read.


I guess that Jack Mott agrees with you. Good company.

The problem is that you are comparing individual effeorts with group racing.

Compare a energy cost of a solo rider on aero wheels to the chasing peloton. Drafting benefits are much greater than aero wheel benefits. Aero wheels don't matter for the peloton.

Just watch the pros race. Guys at the front have high CdAs. The drafting is ragged at best. Very little aero matters to them.

Doing the wrong math as you and Jack Mott seem to be doing leads to the wrong conclusions.

I am not going to do the correct math. Too much noise in a bike race to do a good model.


Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [joshatzipp] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Interesting stuff. Thanks for sharing.
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [joshatzipp] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
DON'T YOU GUYS JUST LOVE IT WHEN JOSH EXPLAINS STUFF?!?

(I mean, I love Jordan when he explains stuff, with Jordan being an engineer and all, but, sorry, Rapp, Josh just makes it sound better). :)
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [Alfalfameister] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [An Old Guy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
An Old Guy wrote:
asad137 wrote:
An Old Guy wrote:
For the pros there is so much noise in races that the math does not matter.


That's probably the dumbest thing I've ever read.


I guess that Jack Mott agrees with you. Good company.

The problem is that you are comparing individual effeorts with group racing.

No, the problem is that you don't understand that even for a rider in the middle of the peloton, even where the air drag is reduced by 30-40% over riding solo at the same speed, air resistance is still the dominant effect he has to overcome. He's not suddenly riding in a vacuum.

Quote:
I am not going to do the correct math.

My hunch is that you are not smart enough to do it even if you wanted to, frankly.

Quote:
Too much noise in a bike race to do a good model.

You keep harping on noise. Noise doesn't make aero gains go away, it just makes it harder to measure the effect. To think otherwise is idiotic, and fundamentally wrongheaded.

If you can propose a realistic model where the effects of air resistance suddenly decrease to negligible levels when riding in a pack, I would sure love to hear it.
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [asad137] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
asad137 wrote:


An Old Guy wrote:
Too much noise in a bike race to do a good model.


You keep harping on noise. Noise doesn't make aero gains go away, it just makes it harder to measure the effect. To think otherwise is idiotic, and fundamentally wrongheaded.

If you can propose a realistic model where the effects of air resistance suddenly decrease to negligible levels when riding in a pack, I would sure love to hear it.


Riding on Mercury. By a very minimal definition it does have an atmosphere, albeit very thin. Therefore, when riding alone, there is still air resistance, but when riding in a peloton, the other riders shield the little bit of air there is. With decreased gravity, however, this point may be moot, as the weight of bikes will also be less important. Tire pressure would also change due to temperature, so that may play a bigger part.
I am not going to do the correct math to figure this out, though, so I must be right.

Additionally, with respect to noise, perhaps An Old Guy is referring to the very loud spectators right in the riders' ears. The sound waves obviously go into/against the riders and push them back, which makes a lot more difference than air.

IG: idking90
Last edited by: iank: Jul 20, 13 10:23
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [iank] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
iank wrote:

Riding on Mercury.

Ah, but you're neglecting the effects of the spacesuit on pedaling mechanics!
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [asad137] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
asad137 wrote:
iank wrote:

Riding on Mercury.

Ah, but you're neglecting the effects of the spacesuit on pedaling mechanics!

I have two counters to that:
1. The Giro Air Attack with the face shield is already an astronaut helmet, so some of the teams are part of the way there already.
2. With the number and efficiency of these guys' red blood cells, the minimal amount of oxygen in Mercury's atmosphere is plenty for them to survive and engage in physical activity, even though a mere mortal would die
But again, I don't want to do the math to figure all this out, but I know I'm right

IG: idking90
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [asad137] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
asad137 wrote:
No, the problem is that you don't understand that even for a rider in the middle of the peloton, even where the air drag is reduced by 30-40% over riding solo at the same speed, air resistance is still the dominant effect he has to overcome. He's not suddenly riding in a vacuum.

My hunch is that you are not smart enough to do it even if you wanted to, frankly.

You keep harping on noise. Noise doesn't make aero gains go away, it just makes it harder to measure the effect. To think otherwise is idiotic, and fundamentally wrongheaded.

If you can propose a realistic model where the effects of air resistance suddenly decrease to negligible levels when riding in a pack, I would sure love to hear it.

I see you have the facts more or less correct. That does not mean that your conclusions are correct.

During TdF stages power output in the pack is reduced to an easy training day for most of the riders - seems like a valid model. No need for aero equipment or light weight.

Noise that I refer to is the power difference between doing normal training rides and sitting in the pack and racing. For the pros there is not much difference. You can tell that because they come back the next day and do it all over again.

---

One of the problems we have is in what we have experienced. Many racers and triathletes go to events and work much harder than they train. That may be appropriate for them. It is not appropriate for professionals. Professionals want nice easy days. While I was never a professional, I never went to events to work harder than I trained.
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [An Old Guy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
An Old Guy wrote:
asad137 wrote:
No, the problem is that you don't understand that even for a rider in the middle of the peloton, even where the air drag is reduced by 30-40% over riding solo at the same speed, air resistance is still the dominant effect he has to overcome. He's not suddenly riding in a vacuum.

My hunch is that you are not smart enough to do it even if you wanted to, frankly.

You keep harping on noise. Noise doesn't make aero gains go away, it just makes it harder to measure the effect. To think otherwise is idiotic, and fundamentally wrongheaded.

If you can propose a realistic model where the effects of air resistance suddenly decrease to negligible levels when riding in a pack, I would sure love to hear it.


I see you have the facts more or less correct. That does not mean that your conclusions are correct.

During TdF stages power output in the pack is reduced to an easy training day for most of the riders - seems like a valid model. No need for aero equipment or light weight.

Noise that I refer to is the power difference between doing normal training rides and sitting in the pack and racing. For the pros there is not much difference. You can tell that because they come back the next day and do it all over again.

---

One of the problems we have is in what we have experienced. Many racers and triathletes go to events and work much harder than they train. That may be appropriate for them. It is not appropriate for professionals. Professionals want nice easy days. While I was never a professional, I never went to events to work harder than I trained.

If you have a choice of completing a stage with the peloton in order to save energy for later in the race when you might need/desire it, and doing the same but with equipment that lowers your power demand by say 10W and still satisfies the handling/braking performance demands for that day's stage, then why would you not choose to do as little work as possible?
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [Watt Matters] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Watt Matters wrote:
If you have a choice of completing a stage with the peloton in order to save energy for later in the race when you might need/desire it, and doing the same but with equipment that lowers your power demand by say 10W and still satisfies the handling/braking performance demands for that day's stage, then why would you not choose to do as little work as possible?

My thoughts exactly.
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [asad137] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
But what about the Tour de Solar System? Another thought I had about riding on Mercury is that solar winds could theoretically wreak havoc on the riders' handling abilities if they were riding anything deeper than a hula hoop. Andy Schleck would be reduced to running because any sort of side profile and he would be blown off the whole planet and likely suffer another broken hip

IG: idking90
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [Watt Matters] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Watt Matters wrote:
If you have a choice of completing a stage with the peloton in order to save energy for later in the race when you might need/desire it, and doing the same but with equipment that lowers your power demand by say 10W and still satisfies the handling/braking performance demands for that day's stage, then why would you not choose to do as little work as possible?

Do you actually watch the pros race?

Just by position alone - big gaps while drafting or 6-10 wide across the road, they are using 50-100w more than they need to for large parts of each day's event. That is a choice they make.

Even the guy at the front of the group is riding on the hoods or tops most of the day - that includes while the group is riding 10-20seconds/kilometer faster than the break. Lots of power wasted. Again a choice they make.

A rational position is that 10-20 watts does not matter at all for them. If you disagree, ask the pros why they waste power.

---

It is sort of pointless for you who who is not a pro to insist that they ride poorly - at least as pointless as me disagreeing.
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [Watt Matters] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Watt Matters wrote:
If you have a choice of completing a stage with the peloton in order to save energy for later in the race when you might need/desire it, and doing the same but with equipment that lowers your power demand by say 10W and still satisfies the handling/braking performance demands for that day's stage, then why would you not choose to do as little work as possible?

Maybe they worry about "detraining" if it's too easy? ;-)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [An Old Guy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [An Old Guy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
An Old Guy wrote:
Just by position alone - big gaps while drafting or 6-10 wide across the road, they are using 50-100w more than they need to for large parts of each day's event. That is a choice they make.

Even the guy at the front of the group is riding on the hoods or tops most of the day - that includes while the group is riding 10-20seconds/kilometer faster than the break. Lots of power wasted. Again a choice they make.

A rational position is that 10-20 watts does not matter at all for them. If you disagree, ask the pros why they waste power.

Most of the people you see "doing it wrong" are actually "doing their jobs". The domestiques riding at the front are blocking wind for others. It would be a first rate ass move for many of them to grab onto the drops unless the pace is furious enough to warrant it. Ultimately, they have enough strength to have watts to burn and still ride up front. It is humbling and at the pro level you find that they talk more about what is effective rather than what is efficient.
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [An Old Guy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
An Old Guy wrote:
Watt Matters wrote:
If you have a choice of completing a stage with the peloton in order to save energy for later in the race when you might need/desire it, and doing the same but with equipment that lowers your power demand by say 10W and still satisfies the handling/braking performance demands for that day's stage, then why would you not choose to do as little work as possible?


Do you actually watch the pros race?

Just by position alone - big gaps while drafting or 6-10 wide across the road, they are using 50-100w more than they need to for large parts of each day's event. That is a choice they make.

Even the guy at the front of the group is riding on the hoods or tops most of the day - that includes while the group is riding 10-20seconds/kilometer faster than the break. Lots of power wasted. Again a choice they make.

A rational position is that 10-20 watts does not matter at all for them. If you disagree, ask the pros why they waste power.

---

It is sort of pointless for you who who is not a pro to insist that they ride poorly - at least as pointless as me disagreeing.

And exactly how do you know what my previous/current rider status is, let alone how many pro races I've seen? I know exactly why they do it, but that does not mean that the rest of us should follow suit and ride over the energy demand cliff like a bunch of lemmings.

Many pros ride what equipment they are told to, and ride where they are required to. Doesn't mean they like it or wouldn't prefer to save energy if given the choice. Their job is to be a mobile billboard, or to support one, in order to sell product to lemmings like yourself.

Your statements on here suggest you talk nonsense.

Is there an idiot filter on these forums?
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [An Old Guy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Quote:
A rational position is that 10-20 watts does not matter at all for them. If you disagree, ask the pros why they waste power.

No, a rational position is that pros often do things despite what evidence and science says is best, not because it doesn't matter.

All you have to do is look up and read joshatzipp's comments above for an example. Actually I'll make it easier for you, I'll quote it here:

"When we showed him the original 808 in 2003 it tested better than the Hed3 at all yaw angles below 20 in the bike, and yaw above 20 isn't exactly common when you're moving at 34mph, and he told me straight up, that he wouldn't ride it no matter what the data said."

And this was for TTs!

Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [asad137] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
That speaks volumes to not only pro's but age groupers as well. How many times can you be told on Slowtwitch that something is faster but people go with something slower.
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
jackmott wrote:
If I am his boss, and I am not, I have him on 404 rear 303 front and a Venge every climbing stage, and 808 rear 404 front for every non climbing stage.

But Contador is Contador's boss.

As someone close to Contador's weight I can say I would much much rather descend on an sl4 than a venge. I think you guys are forgetting how bad some of the corners can be in euroland. Go watch any crit with rough or gravely pavement and watch us sub 62kg guys bounce around in the corners. Many times we can't corner as fast simple because we don't have the weight to keep adequate traction .
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [cabdoctor] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
traction doesn't work that way. If you are experiencing less grip than heavier guys it is because your tire pressures are too high.

cabdoctor wrote:
jackmott wrote:
If I am his boss, and I am not, I have him on 404 rear 303 front and a Venge every climbing stage, and 808 rear 404 front for every non climbing stage.

But Contador is Contador's boss.

As someone close to Contador's weight I can say I would much much rather descend on an sl4 than a venge. I think you guys are forgetting how bad some of the corners can be in euroland. Go watch any crit with rough or gravely pavement and watch us sub 62kg guys bounce around in the corners. Many times we can't corner as fast simple because we don't have the weight to keep adequate traction .



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I half agree. Yes, tire pressure does play a key, but then again so does frame design. A heavy rider is going to have more success keeping the rear wheel planted on a stiff unyielding bike like the Venge than a light rider will.
Last edited by: cabdoctor: Jul 22, 13 19:46
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [dgran] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
dgran wrote:
Most of the people you see "doing it wrong" are actually "doing their jobs". The domestiques riding at the front are blocking wind for others. It would be a first rate ass move for many of them to grab onto the drops unless the pace is furious enough to warrant it. Ultimately, they have enough strength to have watts to burn and still ride up front. It is humbling and at the pro level you find that they talk more about what is effective rather than what is efficient.

I never said anyone was doing anything wrong. Someone else said they were doing it wrong. I simply responded that they had other issues that were more important. And I gave examples to support my point.

I am pleased to see you agree with me. I expect people will start calling you an idiot now. But that is the burden we all bare.
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [An Old Guy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
An Old Guy wrote:
I expect people will start calling you an idiot now. But that is the burden we all bare.

Hey, don't smear everyone else with your fallacious hole digging, that's all your own doing. I was going easy. I could've really lowered the tone and resorted to comparing you with Frank Day.

Besides, the image of an old guy going bare is too much to bear.
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [cabdoctor] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Is the Venge really stiff and unyielding in such a way that you have trouble cornering, or are you just worried it would be?

Cav at 152lbs seems to descend well on it and navigate field sprints ok on it.

Contador at 132lbs wet the 2nd fastest TT time on it in this tour, one that included an extremely technical descent







cabdoctor wrote:
I half agree. Yes, tire pressure does play a key, but then again so does frame design. A heavy rider is going to have more success keeping the rear wheel planted on a stiff unyielding bike like the Venge than a light rider will.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [An Old Guy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
An Old Guy wrote:
dgran wrote:
Most of the people you see "doing it wrong" are actually "doing their jobs". The domestiques riding at the front are blocking wind for others. It would be a first rate ass move for many of them to grab onto the drops unless the pace is furious enough to warrant it. Ultimately, they have enough strength to have watts to burn and still ride up front. It is humbling and at the pro level you find that they talk more about what is effective rather than what is efficient.


I never said anyone was doing anything wrong. Someone else said they were doing it wrong. I simply responded that they had other issues that were more important. And I gave examples to support my point.

I am pleased to see you agree with me. I expect people will start calling you an idiot now. But that is the burden we all bare.

I didn't mean you personally, so sorry if it came off that way. I am in agreement with you. Amateurs obsess over stuff that doesn't ultimately matter that much while pros just push the damn pedals harder. In general most people would be better served by less thinking and more suffering. I'm prone to being an analytic cyclist but I can personally attest that very few performance gains come from doing something that seems smart. The people who win by and large combined the genetic lottery with a ox-like mentality to go deep into the pain.
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [dgran] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Thankfully thinking doesn't really affect the recovery process so you can do ALL of those things.


dgran wrote:
I'm prone to being an analytic cyclist but I can personally attest that very few performance gains come from doing something that seems smart. The people who win by and large combined the genetic lottery with a ox-like mentality to go deep into the pain.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [duncan] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
This has to be the best thread I've read on ST in a long time. Very candid commentary from top industry engineers. So cool!

AndyF
bike geek
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I haven't seen mentioned, that at some point, you have to remember that these guys are average 100 miles a day, in 21 days with only 2 rest days, 1/2 of which are either TT's or climbing stages. I have a suspiscion that comfort starts to play a factor here. So sometimes you give up some aero to sit up and relax. As mentioned, the guys pulling at the front are intentionally more upright for a better draft, until the pace picks up or they need better control. A road bike is more balanced for cornering and more stable in the drops since the front/rear weight distribution is more evenly distributed. But obviously comfort suffers.


TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [motoguy128] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
> As mentioned, the guys pulling at the front are intentionally more upright for a better draft, until the pace picks up or they need better control.

This has been repeated a few times. Is this really true? Guys really sit up to provide a better draft? I call B.S. If the pace is easy there's no need, and if the pace is hard, your job is to drill the pace. And you do a better job of drilling it, if you have less drag.






Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
jackmott wrote:
traction doesn't work that way. If you are experiencing less grip than heavier guys it is because your tire pressures are too high.

cabdoctor wrote:
jackmott wrote:
If I am his boss, and I am not, I have him on 404 rear 303 front and a Venge every climbing stage, and 808 rear 404 front for every non climbing stage.

But Contador is Contador's boss.


As someone close to Contador's weight I can say I would much much rather descend on an sl4 than a venge. I think you guys are forgetting how bad some of the corners can be in euroland. Go watch any crit with rough or gravely pavement and watch us sub 62kg guys bounce around in the corners. Many times we can't corner as fast simple because we don't have the weight to keep adequate traction .

When was the last time a guy under 65kg won Roubaix or Flanders? Flanders is pretty hilly, even, so there must be something to the weight vs bumpy thing. I get the feeling that sometimes you forget that in theory there is no difference between theory and practice.
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [AndyF] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Thanks! Just to add yet more meat to my argument, and to consider how easy these pros must be taking it when they're rolling on the flat between climbs, thought I'd take some numbers from the Givors - Mont Ventoux stage. This stage was rolling for the first 220 km to BĂ©doin with three 4th and one 3rd category climb, then cranked up the Ventoux. So, we have:

1st hour: 48.2 km/h average
2nd hour: 50.4 km/h average (establishing break)
3rd hour: 41.3 km/h average (settling down)
4th hour: 46.6 km/h average

These are the speeds pros roll and any energy saved will leave them fresher. TBH, any time I see a Europcar pro out front in a break on shallow rims it hurts my head.
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [AaronT] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
The issue with Flanders and Roubaix isn't cornering its the cobbles and control in a straight line. They bounce everyone around but they tend to bounce lighter righers off their line a lot more than the heavier riders.

Styrrell
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [styrrell] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
By Jackmott's logic they are just running too much pressure in the tires.
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [styrrell] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
>The issue with Flanders and Roubaix isn't cornering its the cobbles and control in a straight line. They bounce everyone around but they tend to bounce lighter righers off their line a lot more than the >heavier riders.

Seems like they need bikes tuned to their weight, per the Kittel vs. Cav wheel bouncing thread?
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [styrrell] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
The issue with Flanders and Roubaix is that raw horsepower matters way more than w/kg and in that department a 130lb rider will never match the power that a 170lb rider can produce, especially at the top end. Pretty sure it's that simple.
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
>Thankfully thinking doesn't really affect the recovery process so you can do ALL of those things.

I'm still waiting for you or TomA or one of the pro equipment hand-wringers-and-hair-pullers to show up to a flattish crit or road race with a disc wheel and aero helmet (Giro Attack doesn't count). It's legal. You can do it. But I've yet to see that picture!
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [AaronT] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Light guys fail to excel on cobbles for reasons other than cornering grip.


AaronT wrote:
When was the last time a guy under 65kg won Roubaix or Flanders? Flanders is pretty hilly, even, so there must be something to the weight vs bumpy thing. I get the feeling that sometimes you forget that in theory there is no difference between theory and practice.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [vo3 max] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
This.

Possibly inertia and how that affects you running into huge stone blocks 200 times per minute too..interesting question.

ST vacation to Belgium to experiment?

vo3 max wrote:
The issue with Flanders and Roubaix is that raw horsepower matters way more than w/kg and in that department a 130lb rider will never match the power that a 170lb rider can produce, especially at the top end. Pretty sure it's that simple.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [trail] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
At some point physics takes over (that would actually be when you say go). Heavier riders have more momentum and are harder to knock of line than lighter riders. Sure the ligher riders could rider 40 pound bikes to make up the difference but then they would have poorer power to weight ratios.

Styrrell
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [trail] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [vo3 max] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
vo3 max wrote:
The issue with Flanders and Roubaix is that raw horsepower matters way more than w/kg and in that department a 130lb rider will never match the power that a 170lb rider can produce, especially at the top end. Pretty sure it's that simple.

Its not quite that simple or else heavier riders with higher power would dominate all flatter races. Without the cobbles light riders would do just fine in Flanderrs and PR would be the most boring race ever. Dead flat, it'd be a group sprint every time.

Styrrell
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [trail] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
trail wrote:
>Thankfully thinking doesn't really affect the recovery process so you can do ALL of those things.

I'm still waiting for you or TomA or one of the pro equipment hand-wringers-and-hair-pullers to show up to a flattish crit or road race with a disc wheel and aero helmet (Giro Attack doesn't count). It's legal. You can do it. But I've yet to see that picture!




I've been known to put packing tape over the front half of that Rudy helmet above...

BTW, I don't own a disc. I use a cover on the Jet 90 for TTs...

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [styrrell] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
styrrell wrote:
vo3 max wrote:
The issue with Flanders and Roubaix is that raw horsepower matters way more than w/kg and in that department a 130lb rider will never match the power that a 170lb rider can produce, especially at the top end. Pretty sure it's that simple.


Its not quite that simple or else heavier riders with higher power would dominate all flatter races. Without the cobbles light riders would do just fine in Flanderrs and PR would be the most boring race ever. Dead flat, it'd be a group sprint every time.
I think it is that simple. The difference with the cobbled races is that the selections occur on the cobbles where speeds are low and raw power wins. It takes a lot of power to ride over the cobbles and wind and drafting effects are much lower than on a smoother surface.
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
 
>BTW, I don't own a disc. I use a cover on the Jet 90 for TTs...

Why not the cover for crits? I give you half credit for the helmet. :)
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [styrrell] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
>At some point physics takes over (that would actually be when you say go). Heavier riders have more momentum and are harder to knock of line than lighter riders. Sure the ligher riders could rider 40 pound bikes to make up the difference but then they would >have poorer power to weight ratios.

I'm not entirely convinced. Wouldn't it be less about total weight than "impedance matching" the spring system to the load? In the automotive world you can tune the suspension on both the 1600lb. Lotus Elise and 4200 lb. Bugatti Veyron so they don't bounce all over the place on a bumpy track.

I could maybe understand that bike engineers may have to adhere to some minimum pure strength for safety (in case JackMott jumps on the bike), and therefore couldn't optimize compliance for a 130lb. guy.

Makes me wonder about women? Are all the poor 100lb. women racing on ridiculously stiff bikes?
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [trail] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
trail wrote:

>BTW, I don't own a disc. I use a cover on the Jet 90 for TTs...

Why not the cover for crits? I give you half credit for the helmet. :)

The Jet 90 is nearly as good...and I don't want to give the chief ref a reason to make me take the wheel off (it's unclear to me if covers are allowed for mass start events...the USAC rules say that they are allowed for TTs, but they don't say one way or the other about mass start events IIRC)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [gregf83] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
gregf83 wrote:
styrrell wrote:
vo3 max wrote:
The issue with Flanders and Roubaix is that raw horsepower matters way more than w/kg and in that department a 130lb rider will never match the power that a 170lb rider can produce, especially at the top end. Pretty sure it's that simple.


Its not quite that simple or else heavier riders with higher power would dominate all flatter races. Without the cobbles light riders would do just fine in Flanderrs and PR would be the most boring race ever. Dead flat, it'd be a group sprint every time.
I think it is that simple. The difference with the cobbled races is that the selections occur on the cobbles where speeds are low and raw power wins. It takes a lot of power to ride over the cobbles and wind and drafting effects are much lower than on a smoother surface.

^^^This. Excessive road roughness increases the "resistance to forward motion" proportional to speed, much like tire rolling resistance...in fact, you can think of it as an increase in Crr. In that situation, raw power wins. Bigger riders tend to put out higher raw power.

So...think about who/what dominates when Crr becomes a higher percentage of the total rider resistance. One example would be in a large tailwind situation. IME, that's when the "raw power" guys really put the hurt down. Bigger riders tend to put out higher raw power.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
jackmott wrote:
Is the Venge really stiff and unyielding in such a way that you have trouble cornering, or are you just worried it would be?

Cav at 152lbs seems to descend well on it and navigate field sprints ok on it.

Contador at 132lbs wet the 2nd fastest TT time on it in this tour, one that included an extremely technical descent







cabdoctor wrote:
I half agree. Yes, tire pressure does play a key, but then again so does frame design. A heavy rider is going to have more success keeping the rear wheel planted on a stiff unyielding bike like the Venge than a light rider will.

You're not really going to use that time trial as an example are you?

You do realize that Contador was in the lead by 11 seconds before the descent BUT managed to loose 21 seconds in less than 12k riding that bike down the descent to the finish.
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [cabdoctor] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Cabdoctor, the course featured two descents, the first was highly technical, the 2nd was wide and straight. This is why many teams opted for road bike configurations until that final descent.

Contador absolutely made a mistake to not switch to a TT bike (or to not have a TT cockpit on the venge! and a deeper front wheel!)

But the fact that he was in the lead before the non technical descent absolutely supports the notion that the Venge must have handled well on the first technical descent, even with a very lightweight guy on it.

cabdoctor wrote:
You do realize that Contador was in the lead by 11 seconds before the descent BUT managed to loose 21 seconds in less than 12k riding that bike down the descent to the finish.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
No, Jack no. I'm pretty sure if that was the case Contador and every other spec rider would be dry humping the Venge on every up and down stage. Trust me I have a lot more experience on being a light weight rider
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [cabdoctor] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Cabdoctor:
Well you can see how Contador did descending on his Venge, his name is obscured because froome is right on top of it:



Only 3 guys in the whole protour managed to descend faster than him, despite him having a road bike with drop bars on the 2nd non technical descent.

So somehow he defied the supposed bad handling of the Venge even against the stiffest competition in the world on a very technical stage.





cabdoctor wrote:
No, Jack no. I'm pretty sure if that was the case Contador and every other spec rider would be dry humping the Venge on every up and down stage. Trust me I have a lot more experience on being a light weight rider



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Which descent are those numbers taken from? Are they the first or the second.

Realistically with two climbs and one descent before the first and only time check it is a very real possibility that Cont just out climbed everyone and was actually losing time on the first descent.
Last edited by: cabdoctor: Jul 23, 13 11:06
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [cabdoctor] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
both descents together.

all timechecks are here:
http://www.letour.fr/.../aso/stage-1700.html

Contador was fastest up the first climb, and extended that lead on the 1st technical descent




cabdoctor wrote:
Which descent are those numbers taken from? Are they the first or the second.

Realistically with two climbs and one descent before the first and only time check it is a very real possibility that Cont just out climbed everyone and was actually losing time on the first descent.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I have a Venge. It handles perfectly. Best bike I've ever owned. I'm light, ish.

But Jack/Josh, 1 question: What is all the hub-bub about having these deeper wheels in the back? Doesn't the frame block much of the wind resistance (especially on an aero road frame). I use deeper up front and smaller on the back because of the aero impact of the frame, and with the lighter wheel on back I can accelerate faster. Am I dumb?



jackmott wrote:
Cabdoctor:
Well you can see how Contador did descending on his Venge, his name is obscured because froome is right on top of it:



Only 3 guys in the whole protour managed to descend faster than him, despite him having a road bike with drop bars on the 2nd non technical descent.

So somehow he defied the supposed bad handling of the Venge even against the stiffest competition in the world on a very technical stage.





cabdoctor wrote:
No, Jack no. I'm pretty sure if that was the case Contador and every other spec rider would be dry humping the Venge on every up and down stage. Trust me I have a lot more experience on being a light weight rider
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [ehloolerud] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
ehloolerud wrote:
But Jack/Josh, 1 question: What is all the hub-bub about having these deeper wheels in the back? Doesn't the frame block much of the wind resistance (especially on an aero road frame).
It affects Cd. Sometimes significantly.

ehloolerud wrote:
I use deeper up front and smaller on the back because of the aero impact of the frame, and with the lighter wheel on back I can accelerate faster. Am I dumb?
You're only dumb if you keep repeating the same mistakes.
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [ehloolerud] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Yes, aero matters more up front, but even in the rear, you will accelerate faster with a deep wheel than a shallow one generally.

Bikes sometimes handle funny with a deep front shallow rear, but if you wanted to keep weight minimum for a hill climb and weren't worried about handling that would be a reasonable approach.



ehloolerud wrote:
I have a Venge. It handles perfectly. Best bike I've ever owned. I'm light, ish.

But Jack/Josh, 1 question: What is all the hub-bub about having these deeper wheels in the back? Doesn't the frame block much of the wind resistance (especially on an aero road frame). I use deeper up front and smaller on the back because of the aero impact of the frame, and with the lighter wheel on back I can accelerate faster. Am I dumb?



jackmott wrote:
Cabdoctor:
Well you can see how Contador did descending on his Venge, his name is obscured because froome is right on top of it:



Only 3 guys in the whole protour managed to descend faster than him, despite him having a road bike with drop bars on the 2nd non technical descent.

So somehow he defied the supposed bad handling of the Venge even against the stiffest competition in the world on a very technical stage.





cabdoctor wrote:
No, Jack no. I'm pretty sure if that was the case Contador and every other spec rider would be dry humping the Venge on every up and down stage. Trust me I have a lot more experience on being a light weight rider



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [ehloolerud] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
ehloolerud wrote:
I have a Venge. It handles perfectly. Best bike I've ever owned. I'm light, ish.

But Jack/Josh, 1 question: What is all the hub-bub about having these deeper wheels in the back? Doesn't the frame block much of the wind resistance (especially on an aero road frame). I use deeper up front and smaller on the back because of the aero impact of the frame, and with the lighter wheel on back I can accelerate faster. Am I dumb?


You are on that point...

Besides, having more side surface area aft tends to help stabilize a bike in crosswinds...

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Last edited by: Tom A.: Jul 23, 13 15:59
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Tom A. wrote:
ehloolerud wrote:
I have a Venge. It handles perfectly. Best bike I've ever owned. I'm light, ish.

But Jack/Josh, 1 question: What is all the hub-bub about having these deeper wheels in the back? Doesn't the frame block much of the wind resistance (especially on an aero road frame). I use deeper up front and smaller on the back because of the aero impact of the frame, and with the lighter wheel on back I can accelerate faster. Am I dumb?


You are on that point...

Besides, having more side surface area aft tends to help stabilize a bike in crosswinds...

So you are saying, from purely an acceleration standpoint - one would be better off with a 1000g, 60mm wheel (all up weight), vs. a 750g, 30mm deep wheel in the rear? Can you point me to the data?
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [ehloolerud] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
ehloolerud wrote:
Tom A. wrote:
ehloolerud wrote:
I have a Venge. It handles perfectly. Best bike I've ever owned. I'm light, ish.

But Jack/Josh, 1 question: What is all the hub-bub about having these deeper wheels in the back? Doesn't the frame block much of the wind resistance (especially on an aero road frame). I use deeper up front and smaller on the back because of the aero impact of the frame, and with the lighter wheel on back I can accelerate faster. Am I dumb?


You are on that point...

Besides, having more side surface area aft tends to help stabilize a bike in crosswinds...


So you are saying, from purely an acceleration standpoint - one would be better off with a 1000g, 60mm wheel (all up weight), vs. a 750g, 30mm deep wheel in the rear? Can you point me to the data?

Possibly (depending on the aerodynamics of the 2 wheels)...but, at worst, you won't accelerate slower to any noticeable or measurable degree.

This might help: http://www.slowtwitch.com/...nd_Inertia_2106.html

There's also this: http://www.slowtwitch.com/...ailbag_-_4_3767.html

Look near the bottom of the article for the input from Josh Poertner at Zipp for stuff like this:

"Also of note is that once rolling, bicycle accelerations are very low, so while those super light wheels feel amazing in the parking lot, that parking lot or stoplight acceleration is likely the highest rate of acceleration you'll see during the whole ride; the rest of the ride will be dominated by aero factors. We have done physics modeling around [Mark] Cavendish and found that even if you model the rim weight at zero, the improvement gained due to inertial effects during peak acceleration is a fraction of the gain found [by changing wheel choice for aerodynamic purposes]."

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
You should play with the modeling software at Analyticcycling.com, but there are few if any cases where you can take any 2 real products, one being aero and the other being light, and find that the acceleration benefit of the light one outweighs the aero benefits of the aero one. The problem with light wheels is that your brain can perceive a difference, but when you try and quantify it with data, it is super tiny. The aero gains on the other hand have been processed out by your brain in the first few seconds of your ride...almost nobody feels it, not really.

The other thing to remember is your expectation. We do these really great blind ride tests with different wheels and it is really amazing how terrible humans are at perceiving actual differences when riding. We completed one recently where the rim weights varied by 100grams per rim and the aero difference varied by 20 watts at 30mph, and stiffness varied by a factor of 2 with one wheel at 30N/mm and one at 60N/mm lateral and radial stiffness varied by 2x but doesn't matter. Riders can't see the wheels and have no computer or data on board.. In the forms the riders fill out, pretty much nobody gets it right and almost every wheel was the most favorite of one tester and the least favorite of another. As soon as we began identifying these features, then everybody starts trying to revise the history...it's just human nature to want to be right.

In the end, the aero effect of the rear wheel is reduced 30-50% when compared to the front depending on the frame design. So if a front wheel design saves you 1 watt over some baseline, then the similar rear comparison generally saves you 0.50-0.70watt. Since acceleration effects are so minimal for bicycles, this almost always plays into the favor of the more aero wheel until the weight deltas become ridiculously large. The other thing to remember is the percentage of time spent doing different things. This is one of the hardest things we discuss with protour riders. Often times the key climb or acceleration they are worried about is only a few km long and when the acceleration happens the speeds are reasonably high. 80% of most climbing stages are spent on the flats or descending, and lately we've seen downhill attacks and such that unbelievably favor aero. This decision should be easy for them as ALL the bikes generally weight 6.8kg, so the difference is purely rotating vs static weight and weight position. Aero should pretty much always win, but rarely does. Ultimately is it so hard because the bike with lighter parts seems so much lighter (in their minds), but of course is exactly 6.8kg.

I had a very interesting discussion on this topic with the Schleck brothers after the 2010 TdF where Contador attacked as Andy had a chain problem. The math here was really simple. Had he been on 404's compared to Contador on 202's he almost certainly would have caught Contador on the 22km long decent down to Bagneres du-Luchon, instead, he was only able to maintain the ~40second gap. The mental state of the riders here is that 'I might have been dropped on 'heavier' wheels' but in reality, the bike would weight 6.8kg regardless and since a large percentage of the mass of the rims is at the inner diameter..and the spokes are shorter, the inertial difference is relatively small...small enough to be more or less meaningless even during steep climbing. Ultimately they more or less just didn't believe it...

http://www.SILCA.cc
Check out my podcast, inside stories from more than 20 years of product and tech innovation from inside the Pro Peloton and Pro Triathlon worlds!
http://www.marginalgainspodcast.cc
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [joshatzipp] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
joshatzipp wrote:
Ultimately they more or less just didn't believe it...
It's much harder to help those with cognitive dissonance.
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [Watt Matters] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Josh/Tom/Watts dude -
Awesome. Thanks for taking the time.
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [joshatzipp] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
joshatzipp wrote:
This is one of the hardest things we discuss with protour riders. Often times the key climb or acceleration they are worried about is only a few km long and when the acceleration happens the speeds are reasonably high.

I think the rationale is that you want your wheel to matter when it matters most. The benefits from the aero wheel while riding in the prelude to the climb are negligible, its a sub-threshold effort and you aren't racing aggressively. The light wheel matters much more when you are accelerating on that 12% pitch than the aero wheel when you are cruising in the pack. You say speeds are reasonably high but they are doing those climbs at less than half the speed that you test your wheels. At your test speeds you claim claim a few seconds advantage over 40km--these guys ride uphill, outside of the draft for maybe a quarter of that distance, and that is an extremely generous estimate. What's the real aero benefit there?

joshatzipp wrote:
I had a very interesting discussion on this topic with the Schleck brothers after the 2010 TdF where Contador attacked as Andy had a chain problem. The math here was really simple. Had he been on 404's compared to Contador on 202's he almost certainly would have caught Contador on the 22km long decent down to Bagneres du-Luchon, instead, he was only able to maintain the ~40second gap.

What the math doesn't account for is the fact that Contador is a really good descender and despite the fact that Schleck outweighs Contador by 5 kilo, he is a crap descender. If he losses time because he he has to use his brakes more than Contador, the deepest rim in the world won't make him faster.

I'm not an aero luddite but on the aero/weight issue I'm still a bit of a skeptic. I really want to believe but after watching the Tour this year I couldn't help but notice that none of the contenders in the mountains rode deep wheels. Why is that? Are they really all so science averse and rooted in backwards cycling tradition? The whole peloton? Aren't SKY all about attention to detail and embracing the science?
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [vo3 max] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
vo3 max wrote:
I think the rationale is that you want your wheel to matter when it matters most.

Even ON the climb, the aero of a deeper wheel outweighs the weight of the deeper wheel for pros. Especially when you can get to the minimum weight the uci allows anyway. Contador for instance could use 404s front and rear and still be at the minimum weight..on a venge!

The only rational reason you would not run 404s in that case is because you are worried about handling. (and sometimes that is why they don't)

That is not Contador's reason for not doing it though.

Sky has added complications in that

1. their frame sponsor is the heaviest frame in the tour, by a lot

2. their wheel sponsor, shimano, doesn't have a great selection of super aero wheels.

I would suspect, that if sky had zipp or hed as their wheel sponsor, and specialized as their frame sponsor, you would see different equipment choices in many cases.

But, the idea that heavy wheels are extra penalty due to inertia, especially on climbs, is very entrenched, and the nerd a team highers to do equipment tech isn't going to have the weight to tell froome to fuck off and ride a 404, you know?



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
Last edited by: jackmott: Jul 24, 13 13:59
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
jackmott wrote:
But, the idea that heavy wheels are extra penalty due to inertia, especially on climbs, is very entrenched

That's because it is real! Rotational inertia is physics! Its a fact. The question is not whether there is a penalty but if it is a negligible one. Similarly I was questioning the real advantage of aerodynamics when you are crawling up a hill. It's a question of acceleration vs. momentum. You are saying that inertia is minor to the point of irrelevant and if you are talking about riding at a steady speed on the flats I 100% agree with you. Even riding uphill at a steady clip I probably agree with you. BUT when I really want whatever benefit my wheel is going to provide it is during that 2 or 3 minute balls out, 500 watt crux part of the climb. When I'm trying to break it open (or more likely not get broken). In that scenario I am an aerodynamic shit-show; out of the saddle, swinging the bike around bobbing my head from side to side, making donkey noises, doing the paperboy, trying to sprint up a steep grade but maybe only going 15 mph, what the hell do my aero wheels matter there? I am accelerating and decelerating with every pedal stroke but barely going fast enough to make aero wheels matter. Is that scenario one in which rotational inertia matters more? I don't know where the tipping point between momentum and acceleration happens. I guess someone who is good at math can figure it out pretty easily but in a bike race this the scenario where I want my wheels to deliver.

Also, re: SKY wheel selection. I'm certain I saw a Velonews article showing Froome's bike with a nonsponsor lightweight climbing wheel. No reason he couldn't have gone with another nonsponsored deep rim if he thought it was the better option.
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
jackmott wrote:
Cabdoctor, the course featured two descents, the first was highly technical, the 2nd was wide and straight. This is why many teams opted for road bike configurations until that final descent.

Contador absolutely made a mistake to not switch to a TT bike (or to not have a TT cockpit on the venge! and a deeper front wheel!)

But the fact that he was in the lead before the non technical descent absolutely supports the notion that the Venge must have handled well on the first technical descent, even with a very lightweight guy on it.

cabdoctor wrote:

You do realize that Contador was in the lead by 11 seconds before the descent BUT managed to loose 21 seconds in less than 12k riding that bike down the descent to the finish.

My understanding is that Froome did his bike change BEFORE the split point at the top of the climb while most everybody else did their swap after the split point. If correct, that would artificially give Froome a much worse split than Contador. More likely is that Contador and Froome were more or less even before Froome did the bike swap. Still the same deal though as he gave up around 10 seconds with the bike swap and then took around 20 back on the descent. But Froome also had a monster gear on the TT bike that was probably more effective than whatever Contador had on that final wide open descent.

Kevin

http://kevinmetcalfe.dreamhosters.com
My Strava
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [vo3 max] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Quote:
I am accelerating and decelerating with every pedal stroke

I think if anything, this is an argument for the heavier wheels. The higher rotational inertia will smooth out the accelerations/decelerations.

For certain types of efforts on short hills, you might even want heavier wheels even without the aero benefit, since they will cause you to decelerate slower (assuming you hit the hill with a reasonable speed).

(this is all assuming the total bike weight stays the same)
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [joshatzipp] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Gonna play a little devil's advocate with the modelling... You noted that at speed, rim aerodynamics matter more than rim weights when it comes to acceleration. Does that still matter in a tight draft, when a sprinter is accelerating to close a gap first, then come around (running in: a common trick in a sprinter's repertoire)? In that case, because of the draft, effects of rim aerodynamics become reduced - could this reduction be significant enough that differences in rim weights become perceived again?

___________________________
Chewie
Slowtwitch Aeroweenie since '06
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [AngrySaki] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Momentum is a zero sum gain. All the energy you are conserving with a heavier wheel is there because you put more energy into the heavier wheel in the first place.

Styrrell
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [vo3 max] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I really want to believe but after watching the Tour this year I couldn't help but notice that none of the contenders in the mountains rode deep wheels. Why is that? Are they really all so science averse and rooted in backwards cycling tradition? The whole peloton? Aren't SKY all about attention to detail and embracing the science?

Protour riders have been doing the same thing for a long time.

Yes.

Not quite, but most, yes.

Yes, but you still have to overcome rider predjudices.

A 400 watt FTP means you might have been winning despite your equipment choices, not because of them. On a TT where they averaged almost 25 mph you had people picking weight over aero. That right there is all you need to know.
Chad
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [styrrell] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Quote:
Momentum is a zero sum gain. All the energy you are conserving with a heavier wheel is there because you put more energy into the heavier wheel in the first place.

I was thinking more in terms of a road race, where it's not going to be too onerous to put out the extra watts to get up to speed on the flats, so when you hit the hill, you have a bunch of extra momentum over all the other cyclists.

The extreme version of the idea would be to have a flywheel on your bike you can spend all race sitting in the pack putting out extra power spinning it up to thousands of of rpms, then at the opportune moment, you engage it to the drivetrain and take off.
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [chewgl] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Even drafting, you are still more aero. Since rim acceleration is pretty much all perception and does not affect performance then there is probably never a time when a lighter but less aero wheel will outperform a heavier aero wheel at ProTour speeds. The modeling shows that you need an 8 percent grade for "light wheels" to outperform "aero wheels." Now, they certainly hit those grades on occasion, but for the other hundred miles of riding the aero wheels have been outperforming light.
Certainly in a sprint, light will never be better than aero because those guys are super fast.
Chad
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [vo3 max] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Even riding uphill at a steady clip I probably agree with you. BUT when I really want whatever benefit my wheel is going to provide it is during that 2 or 3 minute balls out, 500 watt crux part of the climb. When I'm trying to break it open (or more likely not get broken). In that scenario I am an aerodynamic shit-show; out of the saddle, swinging the bike around bobbing my head from side to side, making donkey noises, doing the paperboy, trying to sprint up a steep grade but maybe only going 15 mph, what the hell do my aero wheels matter there? I am accelerating and decelerating with every pedal stroke but barely going fast enough to make aero wheels matter.

If this moment happens on a grade greater than 8 percent, then the weight of the wheels will start to make a difference, but the rotational inertia will not. You are not accerating and decelerating in the way you describe, no matter what your brain is telling you. Now, how long does that grade have to be for it to matter on the weight issue? Well, a wheelset one pound heavier will lose you 14 seconds from the bottom to the top of Alpe D'Huez. Thats about 1100 meters/3500 feet. So for your five minutes of crazy hard riding you might climb 400 feet if you were really fast and the heavy wheel was a 2 second penalty. Meanwhile the rest of your ride it was saving you energy by being faster/more efficient. Sometimes its hard to believe the numbers, but if you have done enough riding with a power meter you can find out the truth for yourself. Inertia doesn't matter and weight matters very little.
Chad
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [AngrySaki] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
AngrySaki wrote:
Quote:
I am accelerating and decelerating with every pedal stroke


I think if anything, this is an argument for the heavier wheels. The higher rotational inertia will smooth out the accelerations/decelerations.

For certain types of efforts on short hills, you might even want heavier wheels even without the aero benefit, since they will cause you to decelerate slower (assuming you hit the hill with a reasonable speed).

(this is all assuming the total bike weight stays the same)

If the effects of inertia are essentially negligible, wouldn't that also apply to the idea that heavier wheels roll faster and maintain momentum? Doesn't seem like you can have it both ways. If light wheels aren't easier to spin up, heavy wheels can't be easy to keep going at a certain speed.
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [Jctriguy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Quote:
If the effects of inertia are essentially negligible, wouldn't that also apply to the idea that heavier wheels roll faster and maintain momentum?

Yeah, that's totally true. I was mostly just talking about the theoretical. I don't think that in the real world, the difference in inertia for regular vs. deep wheels is enough to matter at all, but I've never really looked into it.

Quote:
If light wheels aren't easier to spin up, heavy wheels can't be easy to keep going at a certain speed.

I'm not sure if you mistyped this. If your speed is constant, then staying at the same speed would require the same power with heavy wheels as with light wheels.

If the light wheels are easier to spin up, then they are also easier to spin down, so you wouldn't coast as far if you stopped pedaling at the base of the hill.
Last edited by: AngrySaki: Jul 24, 13 19:07
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [cdw] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
But it does depend on how the models were constructed right? I was interested to know if there were situations at high speeds that may not have been unaccounted for in the modelling where differences in rim weight could be perceived. A cyclist saves 20-30% of drag when drafting behind another cyclist (up to 40-50% when in a peloton), but given that wheels get a lot closer than riders, I'm guessing that wheel aerodynamics might be even more affected in a peloton?

___________________________
Chewie
Slowtwitch Aeroweenie since '06
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [cdw] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
cdw wrote:
The modeling shows that you need an 8 percent grade for "light wheels" to outperform "aero wheels." Now, they certainly hit those grades on occasion, but for the other hundred miles of riding the aero wheels have been outperforming light.

As with most people you get the math correct, but your tactics model is incorrect.

Most of bicycle racing is simply putting time in. It is only the rare periods - such as grades greater than 8%, that decide a bike race.

If the winning tactic is to attack on the 8% grade, then that is where you need the advantage. And light wheels provide that advantage.

I am not saying that light wheels are better on an 8% grade. There may be tactics that negate the tactic of attacking on the 8% grade. One such tactic might be to keep the speed up so everyone needs the benefit of aero wheels to stay with the leaders. Another tactic might be to let the guy with light wheels sit off the front and cook. The pack will catch him - if they want to.

The current level of analysis is not up to answering the questions.
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [An Old Guy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
An Old Guy wrote:

If the winning tactic is to attack on the 8% grade, then that is where you need the advantage. And light wheels provide that advantage.

If you are so convinced of this, show us the numbers to prove it.
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [vo3 max] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
vo3 max wrote:
I'm not an aero luddite but on the aero/weight issue I'm still a bit of a skeptic. I really want to believe but after watching the Tour this year I couldn't help but notice that none of the contenders in the mountains rode deep wheels. Why is that?

So Alejandro Valverde was never a contender, either early on in this Tour de France or thoughout the last Veulta d'Espagne?

vo3 max wrote:

Are they really all so science averse and rooted in backwards cycling tradition? The whole peloton? Aren't SKY all about attention to detail and embracing the science?

Such is their propaganda. Is it backed up in reality for every aspect? Sometimes I wonder.
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [styrrell] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Not quite, due to the non-linearity of aerodynamics, you do go a wee bit faster on a flat road if wheel inertia is increased and your pedal power is pulsing. However the effect is extremely small, should be ignored, and would require increasing wheel inertia without increasing mass.


styrrell wrote:
Momentum is a zero sum gain. All the energy you are conserving with a heavier wheel is there because you put more energy into the heavier wheel in the first place.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
Last edited by: jackmott: Jul 25, 13 6:25
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [Jctriguy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Yes you are absolutely correct.

In both cases the effects are small enough they should never probably never be considered. They may be interesting to discuss theoretically though, or if all else where completely equal.


Jctriguy wrote:
[
If the effects of inertia are essentially negligible, wouldn't that also apply to the idea that heavier wheels roll faster and maintain momentum? Doesn't seem like you can have it both ways. If light wheels aren't easier to spin up, heavy wheels can't be easy to keep going at a certain speed.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [An Old Guy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
An aero wheel is generally faster than a light wheel even on an 8% grade for pro tour riders.

For cat 5s it is about dead even. So if you are a cat 5 in colorado, pick the light wheel for the big climbs.

An Old Guy wrote:
Most of bicycle racing is simply putting time in. It is only the rare periods - such as grades greater than 8%, that decide a bike race.

If the winning tactic is to attack on the 8% grade, then that is where you need the advantage. And light wheels provide that advantage.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Nothing in your statement contridicts anything in my statement so I fail to see where the not quite comes from. Are saying flat out that with heavier wheels yiu can sometimes get more energy out of the system than you put in? Aside from that the power pulsing has to be a pretty specific frequency and amplitude and "would require increasing wheel inertia without increasing mass." Basically makes it impossible anyways. If it was possible we'd just keep increasing wheel mass until we get to ride 60 mph and win the Tour easily. Heck with super weight weenies parts you could build a bike with 5 pound steel rims on each wheel and still make the UCI minimum. That should be quite an improvement over the wheels the Pros use.


jackmott wrote:
Not quite, due to the non-linearity of aerodynamics, you do go a wee bit faster on a flat road if wheel inertia is increased and your pedal power is pulsing. However the effect is extremely small, should be ignored, and would require increasing wheel inertia without increasing mass.


styrrell wrote:
Momentum is a zero sum gain. All the energy you are conserving with a heavier wheel is there because you put more energy into the heavier wheel in the first place.

Styrrell
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Which wheels are you talking about. Froome used an roughly 500 gram rear wheel on the back which likely had about the aero drag of a ZIPP 202. His normal wheel is a Shimano which is going to be probably 300 grams heavier and more aero but Froome climbs fast and its a rear wheel so the aero benefit is cut by 30% or so and the yaw for him is still pretty low. I doubt the actual difference in speed for his case was very much at all up the climb, for either choice.


jackmott wrote:
An aero wheel is generally faster than a light wheel even on an 8% grade for pro tour riders.

For cat 5s it is about dead even. So if you are a cat 5 in colorado, pick the light wheel for the big climbs.

An Old Guy wrote:

Most of bicycle racing is simply putting time in. It is only the rare periods - such as grades greater than 8%, that decide a bike race.

If the winning tactic is to attack on the 8% grade, then that is where you need the advantage. And light wheels provide that advantage.

Styrrell
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [styrrell] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I'm saying it isn't a zero sum game, because you go faster.

The pulsing does not have to be a specific frequency.

The current Eddy M hour record was broken with extremely heavy wheels to take advantage of this effect, if he was increasing wheel weight to hit the uci minimum that would make sense. It might even make sense to add mass above it, given the CRR is so low on a velodrome.

The advantage of the increased inertia only applies when going a near constant speed with oscillations. It would be lost the minute you attacked or had to surge. So given how small the effect is, I don't think it would ever be a net advantage to weight weenie everything and run super heavy wheels.

Maybe for a time trial though! Unless the starting acceleration penalty overwhelms the advantage.






styrrell wrote:
Nothing in your statement contridicts anything in my statement so I fail to see where the not quite comes from. Are saying flat out that with heavier wheels yiu can sometimes get more energy out of the system than you put in? Aside from that the power pulsing has to be a pretty specific frequency and amplitude and "would require increasing wheel inertia without increasing mass." Basically makes it impossible anyways. If it was possible we'd just keep increasing wheel mass until we get to ride 60 mph and win the Tour easily. Heck with super weight weenies parts you could build a bike with 5 pound steel rims on each wheel and still make the UCI minimum. That should be quite an improvement over the wheels the Pros use.


jackmott wrote:
Not quite, due to the non-linearity of aerodynamics, you do go a wee bit faster on a flat road if wheel inertia is increased and your pedal power is pulsing. However the effect is extremely small, should be ignored, and would require increasing wheel inertia without increasing mass.


styrrell wrote:
Momentum is a zero sum gain. All the energy you are conserving with a heavier wheel is there because you put more energy into the heavier wheel in the first place.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
 Rule of thumb here? Are you saying they should all be riding 808s, or is 30mm enough?



quote jackmott]An aero wheel is generally faster than a light wheel even on an 8% grade for pro tour riders.

For cat 5s it is about dead even. So if you are a cat 5 in colorado, pick the light wheel for the big climbs.

An Old Guy wrote:

Most of bicycle racing is simply putting time in. It is only the rare periods - such as grades greater than 8%, that decide a bike race.

If the winning tactic is to attack on the 8% grade, then that is where you need the advantage. And light wheels provide that advantage.
[/quote]
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
jackmott wrote:
I'm saying it isn't a zero sum game, because you go faster.

The pulsing does not have to be a specific frequency.

The current Eddy M hour record was broken with extremely heavy wheels to take advantage of this effect, if he was increasing wheel weight to hit the uci minimum that would make sense. It might even make sense to add mass above it, given the CRR is so low on a velodrome.
The increase in speed during one pedal stroke is so small I can't see how heavier wheels would make a significant difference. I suspect Eddy used them to increase inertial load which feels better and allowed him to put out more power. Similar to the reason many riders have trouble putting out the same power when riding on a low inertia trainer.

On the wheel inertia going up an 8% hill, I happen to have an old inertia noodling spreadsheet model lying around to provide some numbers.

Assuming:
1. Equivalent weight bikes (i.e. UCI minimum so lighter wheels require more ballast)
2. Light wheel of 500g with all weight located in rim
3. Heavy wheel of 900g
4 Starting speed of 20kph (~390w for Chris Froome) on an 8% hill
5 Attack with 700w for 30s reaching 32kph

It takes 13J to spin up the lighter wheel from 20 to 32kph and 24J to spin up the heavier wheel. Thus the penalty for using the heavier wheels during this acceleration is 11J spread over 30 seconds or a whopping .35W for 30S. This is not surprising as it doesn't take much effort to spin a wheel up to any speed on a bike stand.

I think any aero benefit would outweigh .35W.
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [gregf83] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
gregf83 wrote:

It takes 13J to spin up the lighter wheel from 20 to 32kph and 24J to spin up the heavier wheel. Thus the penalty for using the heavier wheels during this acceleration is 11J spread over 30 seconds or a whopping .35W for 30S. This is not surprising as it doesn't take much effort to spin a wheel up to any speed on a bike stand.

I think any aero benefit would outweigh .35W.

It's funny...we keep doing the math on this and yet nobody believes it...and major cycling review publications insist on using wheel inertia as a major ranking point when doing wheel reviews.

Madness :-/

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [gregf83] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
That's what I was looking for. Thanks.
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [gregf83] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
gregf83 wrote:
The increase in speed during one pedal stroke is so small I can't see how heavier wheels would make a significant difference.

It doesn't make a significant difference. I said that from the beginning.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I'm officially in the market for some 1080s
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I'm still waiting for "An old guy" to show the maths to the contrary...
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
jackmott wrote:
gregf83 wrote:
The increase in speed during one pedal stroke is so small I can't see how heavier wheels would make a significant difference.


It doesn't make a significant difference. I said that from the beginning.
I thought you were implying Eddy went faster because the heavier wheels were smoothing speed variations from his pedal stroke.
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [gregf83] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Eddy didn't really have heavy wheels but the current record holder did. although he also tested positive 2x, just not during the record attempt.

Styrrell
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [duncan] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
duncan wrote:
I'm still waiting for "An old guy" to show the maths to the contrary...

To quote an old boss of mine, "I don't need math to tell me what I already KNOW!"

(BTW, this was in regards to something he was provably wrong about) ;-)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I do not think the math is the problem. It is more the willingness to adapt.
It is interesting that in F1 racing the engineers can take the data and cross reference with the drivers experience. Many times the driver's perception is not accurate. One of the few who was close to matching the data was Schumacher.

In cycling I think we are dealing with a lot of the same. What feels correct is not necessary the fastest. Really light wheels feels great, but that is an emotion not speed.

The Olympic champion in cross country skiing Thomas Alsgaard brought the favorite pair of skies to a test for the manufacture Madshus. This was the pair he had had some amazing races on. After he tested that pair against the new pair he said, "I cannot believe I was happy with my old pair." The old pair was good for its time, but crappy compare to the new skis.
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I'm starting to think we should institute a Math and Physics quiz that everyone on ST has to pass before they're allowed to argue about aero/weight/related topics.
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [dwesley] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I tend to be all for letting ignorant people be ignorant. It gives me an advantage :)
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [Halvard] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Hi Halvard,

Grat story, thanks. I just want to quote this part:


Halvard wrote:
What feels correct is not necessary the fastest. Really light wheels feels great, but that is an emotion not speed.

Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager,
CSG Road Engineering Department
Cannondale & GT Bicycles
(ex-Cervelo, ex-Trek, ex-Velomax, ex-Kestrel)
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [duncan] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
duncan wrote:
An Old Guy wrote:


If the winning tactic is to attack on the 8% grade, then that is where you need the advantage. And light wheels provide that advantage.


If you are so convinced of this, show us the numbers to prove it.

cdw did so:


cdw wrote:
The modeling shows that you need an 8 percent grade for "light wheels" to outperform "aero wheels." Now, they certainly hit those grades on occasion, but for the other hundred miles of riding the aero wheels have been outperforming light.

Harrass him for the numbers if you want them.


Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
jackmott wrote:
An aero wheel is generally faster than a light wheel even on an 8% grade for pro tour riders.

For cat 5s it is about dead even. So if you are a cat 5 in colorado, pick the light wheel for the big climbs.

An Old Guy wrote:

Most of bicycle racing is simply putting time in. It is only the rare periods - such as grades greater than 8%, that decide a bike race.

If the winning tactic is to attack on the 8% grade, then that is where you need the advantage. And light wheels provide that advantage.

That seems like a broad conclusion. What do you base that on?
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [gregf83] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
gregf83 wrote:
On the wheel inertia going up an 8% hill, I happen to have an old inertia noodling spreadsheet model lying around to provide some numbers.

Assuming:
1. Equivalent weight bikes (i.e. UCI minimum so lighter wheels require more ballast)
2. Light wheel of 500g with all weight located in rim
3. Heavy wheel of 900g
4 Starting speed of 20kph (~390w for Chris Froome) on an 8% hill
5 Attack with 700w for 30s reaching 32kph

It takes 13J to spin up the lighter wheel from 20 to 32kph and 24J to spin up the heavier wheel. Thus the penalty for using the heavier wheels during this acceleration is 11J spread over 30 seconds or a whopping .35W for 30S. This is not surprising as it doesn't take much effort to spin a wheel up to any speed on a bike stand.

I think any aero benefit would outweigh .35W.

Your first assumption poses a problem. Rider is using a heavy aero wheel. Has a wheel change. Opps got a light non aero wheel. No longer UCI compliant. Most of us have a bicycle and the only consideration is should the wheels be changed - and aero wheel with a weight penality or a lightweight wheel with an aero penality.

Your last assumption poses a problem. Acceleration is not the issue. The issue is completing the climb faster. For most of us (those who are not professionals) the aero wheel is heavier. So carrying the extra weight requires additional work.

Your fourth assumption is in error. Pros do not attack based on grade.They attack where they have an advantage. Often that advantage is having more appropriate gearing.

Your fifth assumption is in error. A 30 second attack is not an attack - it is not enough to raise a professionals heart rate. Your numbers indicate a 5 to 10 second gain. Many professionals will simply increase their tempo by a modest amount and catch up in a few minutes. It is only if the gap persists that a professional continues on up the road with what could be called an attack.

So the real math is based on wheels with 400g/wheel weight difference - 800g total. and since we have professional riders a 15-20% grade seems the proper place to attack. Now do the math.
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
jackmott wrote:
An aero wheel is generally faster than a light wheel even on an 8% grade for pro tour riders.

For cat 5s it is about dead even. So if you are a cat 5 in colorado, pick the light wheel for the big climbs.

An Old Guy wrote:

Most of bicycle racing is simply putting time in. It is only the rare periods - such as grades greater than 8%, that decide a bike race.

If the winning tactic is to attack on the 8% grade, then that is where you need the advantage. And light wheels provide that advantage.

I guess we agree. As much as anyone here ever agrees.
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [An Old Guy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
An Old Guy wrote:
gregf83 wrote:
On the wheel inertia going up an 8% hill, I happen to have an old inertia noodling spreadsheet model lying around to provide some numbers.

Assuming:
1. Equivalent weight bikes (i.e. UCI minimum so lighter wheels require more ballast)
2. Light wheel of 500g with all weight located in rim
3. Heavy wheel of 900g
4 Starting speed of 20kph (~390w for Chris Froome) on an 8% hill
5 Attack with 700w for 30s reaching 32kph

It takes 13J to spin up the lighter wheel from 20 to 32kph and 24J to spin up the heavier wheel. Thus the penalty for using the heavier wheels during this acceleration is 11J spread over 30 seconds or a whopping .35W for 30S. This is not surprising as it doesn't take much effort to spin a wheel up to any speed on a bike stand.

I think any aero benefit would outweigh .35W.


Quote:
Your first assumption poses a problem. Rider is using a heavy aero wheel. Has a wheel change. Opps got a light non aero wheel. No longer UCI compliant. Most of us have a bicycle and the only consideration is should the wheels be changed - and aero wheel with a weight penality or a lightweight wheel with an aero penality.

Your last assumption poses a problem. Acceleration is not the issue. The issue is completing the climb faster. For most of us (those who are not professionals) the aero wheel is heavier. So carrying the extra weight requires additional work.
I'm just staying on topic. Read the thread title.

Quote:
Your fourth assumption is in error. Pros do not attack based on grade.They attack where they have an advantage. Often that advantage is having more appropriate gearing.
I just picked a number based on a previous poster. If you increase the slope acceleration goes down and the miniscule advantage of a low inertia wheel goes down.

Quote:
Your fifth assumption is in error. A 30 second attack is not an attack - it is not enough to raise a professionals heart rate. Your numbers indicate a 5 to 10 second gain. Many professionals will simply increase their tempo by a modest amount and catch up in a few minutes. It is only if the gap persists that a professional continues on up the road with what could be called an attack.
Again I just suggested a number. If you don't think HR would rise after riding close to threshold for 40 min and then 700w for 30s you're just wrong. In any case if you stretch the attack out to 2min it makes no difference as the terminal speed (32kph) doesn't change. I assumed constant acceleration. The difference in rotational kinetic energy remains the same i.e. 11J so if you want to spread that over 100S instead of 30 the extra power just drops to 11/100 = .11w for 100S.

Quote:
So the real math is based on wheels with 400g/wheel weight difference - 800g total. and since we have professional riders a 15-20% grade seems the proper place to attack. Now do the math.
Short answer -> still sweet fuck all.
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [gregf83] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
gregf83 wrote:

You seem fond of creating strawmen and rejecting facts. The most important fact is that professionals who don't follow your best practices seem to do better than you expect. That causes most engineering types to examine their analysis and come up with a rational explanation. You don't do that.

But I don't need your abuse, so our discussion is over.

---

I am happy with my engineering analysis. It seems to be consistant with the way professionals race.
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [An Old Guy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
An Old Guy wrote:
gregf83 wrote:


You seem fond of creating strawmen and rejecting facts. The most important fact is that professionals who don't follow your best practices seem to do better than you expect. That causes most engineering types to examine their analysis and come up with a rational explanation. You don't do that.

But I don't need your abuse, so our discussion is over.

---

I am happy with my engineering analysis. It seems to be consistent with the way professionals race.
I missed your analysis. In any case, as others have mentioned, there are valid reasons for not using deep profile rims on a mountain stage. I was simply pointing out inertia wasn't one of them.
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [gregf83] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Not really a reply to gregf83, but a general observation.

A lot of the analysis I'm seeing here seems to assume that people are riding at a constant power level. Have any of you actually looked at one of your power files on a hill climb? Looking at my file from a mass start hill climb I did in October 2011 was pretty interesting. I was alone for the last 25 minutes of the race chasing the leaders. My average power was 365 watts with a minimum of 259 watts and a max of 568 watts. This was for a steady effort. My point is that even for a steady effort my power varied by quite a bit. All of this "analysis" we're talking about seems to be working on an invalid assumption. Now, assume an actual climb in a race where people are racing, speeding up and slowing down. I don't think it fits the model that everybody is putting into analytical cycling.

Having said that, I race exclusively on 404 FC clinchers. If I had a whole quiver of wheels though and was doing a Giro stage that finished on the Mortirolo or Monte Zolcalon or the Gavia, I'm bringing the lightest wheels we've got. Because the race is going to be decided on the steeps. For Alpe d'Huez though, I'd probably go with the deep wheels since it's only really steep for the first couple of km and flattens out quite a bit at the end. For the Stelvio stage in last year's Giro, I'm not sure what I'd do. I'd want really light wheels for the Mortirolo, but the final climb up the Stelvio for the most part isn't super steep and the last half has a lot of pretty flat sections and if I remember correctly some head wind. I'd probably want deeper wheels for the Stelvio, but would weigh that against the Mortirolo. You can't win on the Stelvio if you get dropped on the the Mortirolo, right?

Another factor is mental. All of the analytic cycling calculations in the world aren't going to help you if you choose the ride the deep wheels and somebody with lighter wheels is putting the hurt on you. There is no way your mind isn't going to keep going back and forth between "the model says my setup is faster" and "this guy is killing me, my bike is too heavy".

On the other hand, I've been in situations where I was in a 20 mile break away with low profile wheels and getting killed on every pull by a guy on 404's.

It's a hell of a lot more complex than a lot of people seem to be portraying it here. I'm not saying that Froome in this tour or Heyserdal in last year's Giro had it 100% right, but a lot of what I'm seeing here is just WAY to simplistic for something as complicated as a mountain stage in a three week stage race.

Kevin

http://kevinmetcalfe.dreamhosters.com
My Strava
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [nslckevin] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
nslckevin wrote:
There is no way your mind isn't going to keep going back and forth between "the model says my setup is faster" and "this guy is killing me, my bike is too heavy".

Right on, nslckevin. Reminds me of my thermodynamics professor:

Me: "But that's counterintuitive."

Prof: "Then you need to adjust your intuition."

Cheers,

Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager,
CSG Road Engineering Department
Cannondale & GT Bicycles
(ex-Cervelo, ex-Trek, ex-Velomax, ex-Kestrel)
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [nslckevin] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Some interesting points to discuss here, I had even been thinking of starting another thread on a similar subject. Yes, racing up long, sustained climbs against other people can depart substantially from uniformly-paced efforts (I have many personal power files attesting to this). However, what maks the difference is not very complex at all. Take the 8% climb that has been the focus of much of this discussion, assuming one's bike is within a couple of kg of everyone else's, what is absolutely king is the power to weight ratio of the rider. Play around with, for instance, analytical cycling and you find that nothing else matters much.

Going further into the group racing scenario, success comes down to making and surviving sporadic hard attacks. Considering a "pro" level of attack of, say, >7 W/kg on the 8% climb, then in the comparison of lightweight vs aero (wheels) then aero provides a greater advantage - especially in terms my OP question of bike restricted to the same 6.8 kg limit. However, these advantages are in fact very marginal, of just a few watts, and this must be seen in the context of the maximal efforts that are being made. When you cannot follow a hard attack it is not because of missing a few watts, but of suddenly missing 20 or more watts at which point the string breaks. There is nothing marginal about it, this is instead a scenario of maximal gains and losses.*

*This is quite different to the track environment, and IMO explains why Sky's first application of "marginal gains" to the road environment in 2010 was such a failure.
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [duncan] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
duncan wrote:
When you cannot follow a hard attack it is not because of missing a few watts, but of suddenly missing 20 or more watts at which point the string breaks. There is nothing marginal about it, this is instead a scenario of maximal gains and losses.

You are very correct. If we look at the current tactics on long hills, a team sets a hard tempo and the w/kg for the duration of the climb does the rest. The survivors die in the attacks at the end.

If we break down the effort for a 8% grade:

400w power
30w is aero drag
20 is tires
the rest is the 8% grade
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [duncan] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
However, these advantages are in fact very marginal, of just a few watts, and this must be seen in the context of the maximal efforts that are being made. When you cannot follow a hard attack it is not because of missing a few watts, but of suddenly missing 20 or more watts at which point the string breaks. There is nothing marginal about it, this is instead a scenario of maximal gains and losses.*

And this argument is perhaps the verys strongest for riding aero wheels all day long. The advantage they provide or detract is minimal at the crucial moment compared to the overall power needed. Thus, why would you not want to be saving that small bit of energy for the first five hours of racing? I gain about 20 seconds per 10K on 60mm wheels. That is about 5 watts or so. Let's say I rarely sniffed the front of the race and so my gain is only 3 watts. How much fresher will I be if I save three watts for the first 160 kilometers of racing? And that is just for my 8-year-old technology. Throw in an aero frame compared to some of the big, shaped tube frames I saw and you probably gain twice that advantage. A concervative estimate based off my own testing might be a good 10 watts gained even sitting in the pack.
Those ten watts at the crucial moment might not be enough, but what about having cruised along at 10 fewer watts for the 4-5 hours leading up to the crucial climb?
Chad

Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [nslckevin] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
nslckevin wrote:
A lot of the analysis I'm seeing here seems to assume that people are riding at a constant power level. Have any of you actually looked at one of your power files on a hill climb? Looking at my file from a mass start hill climb I did in October 2011 was pretty interesting. I was alone for the last 25 minutes of the race chasing the leaders. My average power was 365 watts with a minimum of 259 watts and a max of 568 watts. This was for a steady effort. My point is that even for a steady effort my power varied by quite a bit. All of this "analysis" we're talking about seems to be working on an invalid assumption. Now, assume an actual climb in a race where people are racing, speeding up and slowing down. I don't think it fits the model that everybody is putting into analytical cycling.
And maybe the power fluctuations weren't variations in speed against constant resistance but maintenance of constant speed against varying resistance? Regardless of that, the extra work you have put into increasing the rotational momentum of the higher inertia wheel as you accelerated will be released as you decelerate i.e you will not slow down so rapidly.
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [dontswimdontrun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Agreed, your power fluctuation is from maintaining your speed despite gradient changes or fatigue.
Quote Reply
Re: Lightweight climbing wheels and the 6.8 kg limit at the Tour [cdw] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
cdw wrote:
However, these advantages are in fact very marginal, of just a few watts, and this must be seen in the context of the maximal efforts that are being made. When you cannot follow a hard attack it is not because of missing a few watts, but of suddenly missing 20 or more watts at which point the string breaks. There is nothing marginal about it, this is instead a scenario of maximal gains and losses.*

And this argument is perhaps the very strongest for riding aero wheels all day long. The advantage they provide or detract is minimal at the crucial moment compared to the overall power needed. Thus, why would you not want to be saving that small bit of energy for the first five hours of racing?

My wheelsets cost about $300. They are not aero. My reason would be that the cheap wheels do just as well for me as expensive aero wheels.

I think you make a mistake that many people seem to make. You argue that saving power with an aero wheel will change the outcome of an event. In reality saving power only postpones when you get dropped. Or perhaps how often you need to eat.

If 10w (your estimate) is worth the cost of aero wheels to you, I am happy with that.
Quote Reply