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Merckx on Armstrong and Ullrich
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pretty interesting stuff there...

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,364713,00.html
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Re: Merckx on Armstrong and Ullrich [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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Merckx: No. If Vinokourov beats Armstrong by three minutes one day and then loses them again the next day because Kloeden goes on the attack, it doesn't bother Armstrong at all. In the end, it all comes down to Ullrich beating Armstrong in the mountains in a man to man battle. That is difficult enough.

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I think that's very insightful. Makes their triple-threat idea seem insignificant...

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Merckx on Armstrong and Ullrich [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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Great interview, thanks for the link.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
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Re: Merckx on Armstrong and Ullrich [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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Wow, great interview. I don't like the way he spoke about the French preferring to be on the side of the loser, though. It's more like wanting to root for the underdog - a subtle difference, but a difference just the same.

Interesting to hear how close he is with LA, and his insight into his motivations were well thought out and concise. Also, if anyone wants to know why Ullrich never reached his potential, Eddy sums it sums it up perfectly, and I like that he acknowledged his up-bringing in the East German sports machine - I believe it's a great explanation for Ullrich's lack of enthusiasm and that last bit of desire it takes to be a great champion.

"I was maybe the best rider of my time just as Lance is the best rider of his." Bam, there you have it. No further explanation necessary, and check the humility with which he made the statement. Very cool.

Great link - thanks.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports
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Re: Merckx on Armstrong and Ullrich [JM3] [ In reply to ]
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Definitely the underdog thing...but it's a common reaction in many places...even in Spain with Indurain etc...

I was thinking about why I root more for Jan, as honestly, I have never rooted for anyone in cycling before...I also realized that until after the Tour 2001, I was always thinking it was great for Armstrong to make that comeback and kick butt in the Tour. Then I arrived in the US and had to 'endure' 3 (and now 4) Tours here...by endure I mean that there are so many talking about Lance as if he was God himself, completely disrespecting great bike riders, people that have no clue that there are other races in Cycling (and big races!) and that includes OLN broadcast, OLN is even sponsored or having ads etc for the sponsors of Lance...everything is entirely biased, it's Lance, only Lance and that's it and the rest is just a bunch of average bike riders that should stop because they all suck...

Well, then I end up wishing that Lance doesn't win. I am sure I'd be watching the french broadcast with comments there I would probably thinking it would be nice to see Lance win #7...
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Re: Merckx on Armstrong and Ullrich [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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Mercx: I learned from everry defeat. Jan doesn't.

That just about sums it up.

*
The Dude abides.
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Re: Merckx on Armstrong and Ullrich [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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good point Francois.

Do you think LA himself has that respect for other riders? I mean, I'm sure he has a very good idea of how good he is, how deep his desire is compared to others.

But it also seems to me that he has a well calibrated feeling for where others' strengths lie.


kiwipat

per ardua ad astra
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Re: Merckx on Armstrong and Ullrich [The Dude] [ In reply to ]
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Pretty easy for Merckx to comment...he makes good points as to why Lance wins and Jan doesn't...but then comments like 'he should do this and that, he doesn't want it, doesn't work hard enough, he is happy the way it is'...
that's Bullshit...it's Jan's life. If he is happy the way it is and T-mobile is happy to pay him, why would Merckx say anything about Jan's decisions? They are Jan's only...it's his choice.
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Re: Merckx on Armstrong and Ullrich [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Pretty easy for Merckx to comment...he makes good points as to why Lance wins and Jan doesn't...but then comments like 'he should do this and that, he doesn't want it, doesn't work hard enough, he is happy the way it is'...
that's Bullshit...it's Jan's life. If he is happy the way it is and T-mobile is happy to pay him, why would Merckx say anything about Jan's decisions? They are Jan's only...it's his choice.
I understand Jan's view. Everyone needs to be happy. Armstrong seems to enjoy pain, Jan seems to enjoy his very limited time off.

*
The Dude abides.
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Re: Merckx on Armstrong and Ullrich [kiwipat] [ In reply to ]
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Hard to say...we just get that image he gives to the media. He plays with the media a lot. I am fairly sure there are riders he respects, and some he doesn't (say Simeoni for instance...) but it's hard to say what is part of his 'media face' and what is the truth.
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Re: Merckx on Armstrong and Ullrich [The Dude] [ In reply to ]
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Besides, it's not really Jan's views...more what has transpired through the media, Merckx's perception of what's going on with Jan etc...
Maybe Jan is training really hard and is beaten by better than him. period. (beaten by better than him, yes, training really hard, not so sure)
Maybe he is happy the way things are.
Maybe he doesn't like biking as suggested by Eddy...
Lot's of possibilities...One thing is sure though, the management of Disco is a lot better than the management of T-mobile!
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Re: Merckx on Armstrong and Ullrich [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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Great reply Francois. I am from Ireland and we also root for the underdog. I also was an Armstrong fan at first until I moved to the US. I also have to endure 'Le Tour dez Lance'. As a non-American of course I would be supporting the underdogs, Armstrong might be one of the greatest tour riders of all time, but it would be nice to see another winner for a change. It was the same during the Indurain era as well.

I also have to say that I am sick of people on this forum thinking that Europeans (especially French) hate Lance because he is American. Believe it or not, he is more popular than you think in Europe. The issue if any most people have if any is the fact he is Lance and not that he is American.

BTW, I love seeing Americans doing well in races, it is needed for the sport over here, and it looks like there is a lot of talent coming up. In Ireland we had Sean Kelly and Steven Roche, and during their success the whole country supported them, the Tour even came over to Dublin, but alas now that they are long retired, the tour isn't even on TV anymore. Let's hope that does not matter here.

Thanks!
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Re: Merckx on Armstrong and Ullrich [The Dude] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Mercx: I learned from everry defeat
He didn't learn much, I guess ...
Last edited by: triborun: Jul 13, 05 2:50
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Re: Merckx on Armstrong and Ullrich [JM3] [ In reply to ]
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Just on the underdog or loser theme there's a great interview with Laurent Fignon in one of the UK cycle mags this month (can't remember which) in which he says that he when he won the Tour in 84 the French didn't warm to him viewing him as aloof and arrogant. He's apparently far more famous and respected in france for his famous 89 loss to Greg Lemond and reckons this sort of reaction is typically French.



"Are you sure we're going fast enough?" - Emil Zatopek
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Re: Merckx on Armstrong and Ullrich [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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Francois,

I understand your points. I don't know if it makes any difference, but realize also that before Lance made his comeback and began winning Tours, competitive cycling wasn't even on the radar screen in this country. If Lance had never "happened" (and assuming no other American had filled that void), there would probably be no OLN coverage whatsoever, no daily Tour updates on the American news, etc. The majority of Americans would still look at cycling as something just for a bunch of little European guys with funny names. So maybe our media's coverage is a bit misguided and maybe our unique enthusiasm for one man is a bit too much for a European (or even one of the rare Americans who was a cycling aficionado before Lance). But I do thnk there hes been a trickle-down effect, and even if Lance's departure next year drops cycling's current popularity by 50 percent in this country, it's still light years ahead of where it was before 1999. Lance's impact on cycling in this country can't be underestimated, and if the American media and Americans in general act like they worship the man, well, that's just the way things work here!
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Re: Merckx on Armstrong and Ullrich [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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i'm in your camp on this.

As a cyclist I admire Lance for his ability and what he's done to garner visibility for cycling, but as a sports fan in general, the last few tours have been unwatchable. I felt the same way during the Indurain era. It became unbearable after his (both Lance and Big Mig) 3rd win. It's always the same story.

Do well in prologue
Be quiet during flat stages
Win or come in close second in TT
Dominate at least 1 mountain stage
Be quiet for a few flat stages
Destroy your last rivals in final TT

Sure there have been some exciting moments, but the overall plot and end result is never in question. Reruns of old TV shows are more interesting to watch.

I am not blaming Lance for this. It's his job is to win, and win he does. More power to him. Just don't expect me to watch and cheer him on. I'm ready to move on.
Last edited by: martytram: Jul 13, 05 7:08
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Re: Merckx on Armstrong and Ullrich [martytram] [ In reply to ]
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For golf fans out there, this is like Tiger's run a few years back. All he did was live for Majors, didn't care about any other tourney and didn't have to. Everyone knew he would win each major, and it made it difficult to watch (if you enjoy watching golf at all). So everyone started pulling against him. There is no golfer in the world I would pay to watch except Tiger, you have to be awed by his game. But that doesn't mean you have to pull for him to win every tourney.

Same with MJ, I hated seeing the Bulls win every year, but couldn't get enough of watching Jordan.
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Post deleted by Casey [ In reply to ]
Re: Merckx on Armstrong and Ullrich [Casey] [ In reply to ]
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Heh heh.

You should hear me go on about baseball. I don't really like apple pie either. The case for me doesn't look so good. My mom will vouch for me though.

=)
Last edited by: martytram: Jul 13, 05 8:10
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Re: Merckx on Armstrong and Ullrich [martytram] [ In reply to ]
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I think Merckx has earned the right to critique anyone he wants. It is funny how everyone forgets just how good he was.........
In 1967, he won the first of three world professional world titles. Armstrong has achieved the feat once, in 1993.

In 1969, Merckx contested his first Tour de France where he recorded the greatest feat in the sport's history by winning the yellow jersey, the King of the Mountains jersey, the green jersey and all three time trials.

Nowadays, no rider ever wins both the green and mountains jersey in the same Tour.

It is a record which will likely never be matched.

In other years, Merckx achieved the following:

1968 - Won Tour of Italy (also won King of Mountains jersey & green jersey)
1970 - Won Tour de France (also won King of Mountains jersey & eight stage wins)
1971 - Won Tour de France (also won green jersey) & world road championship
1972 - Won Tour de France (also won green jersey) & Tour of Italy
1973 - Didn't compete in Tour de France but won Tour of Italy (also won points jersey) & Tour of Spain
1974 - Won Tour de France, Tour of Italy & world road championship
1975 - Finished second in the Tour de France & broke the world hour record

In his career, he won the Tour de France five times (won 35 stages), the Tour of Italy five times (including 25 stage wins) and the Tour of Spain once.

No other rider can boast such an array of victories in the big three Tours.

Aside from winning the Tour de France yellow jersey five times, Merckx also won the King of the Mountains three times and the green jersey three times. Armstrong has never won either the polka dot (mountain) or green jersey (points).

In 1971, Merckx won 54 of the 120 professional races he entered. At his peak, between 1969 and 1973, he won 250 of the 650 races he contested. During his professional career, he won 445 of the 1,582 races he entered.

Nowadays, a cyclist like Armstrong rarely competes outside the Tour de France as he makes it his sole focus of the year.

Merckx used to race most of the year and often in most years, he contested both the Tours of France & Italy, as well as each of the one-day classics and many of the minor multi-stage events.

Merckx's dominance of other major races included:

Tour of Lombardy - won twice
Paris-Nice - won three times
Milan-San Remo - won seven times
Paris Roubaix - won three times
Liege-Bastogne-Liege - won five times
Amstel Gold - won twice
Tour of Flanders - won twice
Het Volk - won twice
Ghent-Wevelgem - won four times
Fleche-Wallonne - won four times
Tour of Switzerland - won once
Paris-Brussels - won once

Put simply, he was, and remains, a freak!

No cyclist has ever approached his record. It is a reasonable bet that nobody ever will.

Whilst Armstrong should be lauded for his achievement in winning a record six Tours de France, when it comes to the question of who is the greatest cyclist, Merckx wins hands down.

For mine, Merckx may well be the greatest living athlete, across any sport.[b][u]
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Re: Merckx on Armstrong and Ullrich [bluemonkeytri] [ In reply to ]
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The comparison to Tiger is good, although it's important to remember that during his big run a few years ago he was winning a lot more than just the four majors. He might have stated pretty clearly that his goal was to sweep all four in row, but he was winning a lot - there's a lot of money at stake week after week!

I'd also say that he is changing the way other pros approach the game. Once other pros got over being psyched out by him, they began to take a good hard look at how he approaches things. To use a terrible, but fitting, corporate-ese term, he's 'shifted the paradigm.' I think golf is only beginning to see his approach being put into action by other pros. And I have to think that somewhere out there are some cyclists who want to be the next guy to win multiple TdFs who are looking the same way at what Lance does.
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Re: Merckx on Armstrong and Ullrich [Quadzilla] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not sure if Lance is the one who truly shifted the para-dig-em, so to speak.

It all starts with his total emphasis on the Tour. This philosophy had it's beginnings with Greg Lemond.

Lance's method of his winning is straight out of the Indurain school, though.

I don't think he's changed the paradigm as much as perfected it.
Last edited by: martytram: Jul 13, 05 8:53
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Re: Merckx on Armstrong and Ullrich [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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I thought the comment about needing to accept defeat if your opponent was better, but learning from every defeat is what makes most good athletes into champions. It's the difference between being a good loser and being a good sport about losing when it happens. Even if you cannot be the very best in your sport (and almost none of us can be), the same attitude can make you into the best possible athlete and competitor.
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Re: Merckx on Armstrong and Ullrich [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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on your response to JM3, I share the same feelings about Lance-mania and the total disregard for the other races/teams/players.

as many have pointed out, b/c of this idolatry, the available cycling coverage in the U.S. will suffer when TdF 05 is over.

jc

Dad, Husband, Weekend Warrior

Blog , JC Tweets

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Re: Merckx on Armstrong and Ullrich [CTL] [ In reply to ]
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Ullrich IS a champion...
1 Tour, 1 Vuelta, 1 Olympic title...that's a champion. Not the biggest palmares, but he is a champ.
Exactly like Poulidor, he arrived at the wrong time, when he super freak with a fantastic team has the key for winning the Tour (Poulidor was even more unlucky..dealing with Anquetil, then Merckx! talk about freaks!)
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Re: Merckx on Armstrong and Ullrich [Quadzilla] [ In reply to ]
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I would substitute the name "Greg Lemond" in your reply to Francois. Then at least you'd be mostly right.

Take it from a guy who, when racing as a junior in the late 70's, might have 10 to 20 guys show up to start (So. Cal. mind you) to post Lemond Tour Win No. 1 where Cat. 4 and 3 fields had to be split at 120 riders per field so we often had A and B fields at a given race.

I was also working in the bike retail biz then and our sales sky rocketed when Greg went to Europe first with Gitane and then with LVC.

Lance and every other US rider in Europe is standing on Greg's shoulders.

Finally, cable TV as we know it today was just a twinkle in the eye of the coverage starved race fan. Try waiting for the lone hour of weekend "Agony of Defeat" coverage then complain about OLN if you like.

Greg is my hero. We raced at the same races but I only ever saw his back as he lapped our field a couple of times.

Mr. Uncaptured External Costs

Fossil carbon is planetary poison.
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Re: Merckx on Armstrong and Ullrich [TriDavis] [ In reply to ]
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There's no doubt Merckx was dominant, but cycling is completely different now - it's impossible to compare on an apples to apples basis. I seriously doubt he would win all three jersey's in todays tour, it's not physically possible. These types of records are the kinds that are diificult enough to achieve that they outlast the evolution of the sport. The same thing will likely happen if Lance wins #7, the sport will change in a way to make it impossible. Part of this evolution is probably due to competitors changing how they race so something like this doesn't happen - you could probably say it's the dominant champions, like Merckx, who are partly responsible for what we have today. One of the biggest reasons Lance has won as many as he has is that no one has figured out how to beat him yet. His approach and execution hasn't changed these past 7 tours.

---------------------------------------------------------

"What the mind can conceive and believe, the mind and body can achieve; and those who stay will be champions."
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Re: Merckx on Armstrong and Ullrich [jackattack] [ In reply to ]
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the only way to beat him is to prepare exactly like DSC. One super freak in the team, a team entirely dedicated to helping him, ignoring the classics and other tour, racing them as training races, everything is for the Tour and uniquely for the Tour. The whole team (of 20 something at the start) unique purpose is to peak for the Tour and help Lance, and do like Popovych yesterday when Lance asked, hammer and die...
No other team can afford to do this. T-mobile would never do this for Jan. CSC wouldn't do that for Basso, because the cycling season is more than 3 week long.

I don't think the sport will evolve in this direction after he retires...Teams will go on preparing for the whole pro Tour, because their sponsors demand it.
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Re: Merckx on Armstrong and Ullrich [bluemonkeytri] [ In reply to ]
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[reply]For golf fans out there, this is like Tiger's run a few years back. All he did was live for Majors, didn't care about any other tourney and didn't have to. Everyone knew he would win each major, and it made it difficult to watch (if you enjoy watching golf at all). So everyone started pulling against him. There is no golfer in the world I would pay to watch except Tiger, you have to be awed by his game. But that doesn't mean you have to pull for him to win every tourney.

Same with MJ, I hated seeing the Bulls win every year, but couldn't get enough of watching Jordan.[/reply]

I was thinking about that the other day. There are definitely simularities, but there is also one big difference. In golf and in Basketball, there may have been a dominating athlete, but the broadcasts were balanced. Yes, Tiger got a lot of coverage, he should as he was/is the biggest story, but the announcers weren't rooting for him (or against him). They just called the play. OLN doesn't seem to be able to do that, and I fear that very soon, cycling coverage in the US will be way down. Of course, it's not OLN's mandate to promote cycling, but they could do more just to protect one of their franchise broadcasts. I honestly don't know why the average OLN viewer would watch next year. They'd be watching a show where they don't know a single name, unless Lance becomes an announcer.


Gerard Vroomen
3T.bike
OPEN cycle
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Re: Merckx on Armstrong and Ullrich [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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hmm last I checked Hincapie was trying to win some classics. Oh, wait who won the Giro again???
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Re: Merckx on Armstrong and Ullrich [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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I agree, it's how the tour overall win is valued. Right now, it is apparent it is most important to DSC. There are enough other prizes available at the tour (and other races) that teams are content (or required) to fight for - it reduces the number of people and resources fighting for the overall. If the only thing valued in the tour was overall, I don't think Lance wins this many.

I can't say I can propose a way that things will evolve to change and prevent another overall win streak like 7, but just that his record will stand for so long (if he wins seven), that cycling will likely be different by the time another great comes along and could cocievably break it. I'm guess my main point is that these guys aren't as good as the records they set make them seem, they aren't gods, but are exceptional athletes (with intense desire) in the right situation at the right time who seize the oppurtunities.

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"What the mind can conceive and believe, the mind and body can achieve; and those who stay will be champions."
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Re: Merckx on Armstrong and Ullrich [gerard] [ In reply to ]
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Unfortunately, I haven't gotten to watch any of OLN's coverage this year, so I haven't gotten sick of the Lance-fest. But it can't be worse than golf announcers in general, who want you to think every player on tour is some kind of God. Every shot is impossible, every lie is horrible, blah blah blah. The only thing impossible in golf is having a buffet big enough to feed all of them until they are full.
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Re: Merckx on Armstrong and Ullrich [mcdeve] [ In reply to ]
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one could certainly argue that usps/dsc is a stage racing team. between the giro, vuelta, and tdf, has anyone other than merckx won more over a six year period?

maybe dsc can be compared to the new england patriots, where everybody puts their all towards the good of the team. voigt and vino would never have a chance at dsc to attack, and they certainly don't have anyone going for any of the other jerseys.

I hope the trend isn't towards dsc type tour tactics - the result would be terribly boring racing.
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Re: Merckx on Armstrong and Ullrich [tim-mech] [ In reply to ]
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I don't think I disagree with anything you've said about Greg LeMond. Particularly about Lance and every other US cyclist in Europe "standing on his shoulders." I know that LeMond was a pioneer and an innovator. But Armstrong is the capitalist. Could LeMond have sold $55 Million in plastic wristbands? I have no numbers in front of me, but I have to think that more average Americans have gotten into cycling - in some form - because of the buzz surrounding LA and that the US bike business has grown like never before in the last few years. I'd even argue that some of triathlon's explosion of growth in the past few years can be attributed to the cult of Lance.

Times have changed and superstar athletes now are as much marketing machines as they are great athletes. And looking at what LeMond accomplished for cycling, I realize you have to take into account what was realistic for athletes to do back then.
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Re: Merckx on Armstrong and Ullrich [ In reply to ]
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I also worry that after the Tour de Lance, North American followers of the race will be relegated to 1 hour per week teevee coverage, at best.

Will Discovery channel even sponsor a TDF team next year? Is there a contract duration longer than this year?
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Re: Merckx on Armstrong and Ullrich [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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why so bitter? Aren't you just happy Moreau is in 3rd place? ;)
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Re: Merckx on Armstrong and Ullrich [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Ullrich IS a champion...
1 Tour, 1 Vuelta, 1 Olympic title...that's a champion. Not the biggest palmares, but he is a champ.
Exactly like Poulidor, he arrived at the wrong time, when he super freak with a fantastic team has the key for winning the Tour (Poulidor was even more unlucky..dealing with Anquetil, then Merckx! talk about freaks!)
Ullrich was a champion, but hasn't won anything big in more than five years. He certainly seemes to have the talent to be a champion again, but I'm not even sure he's one of the 10 best cyclists in the world anymore. He has not lived up to the potential from his first Tour win. Given where he came from (the GDR), maybe he is one whose success was due to doping and that cannot win without a doping advantage.
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Re: Merckx on Armstrong and Ullrich [Vek] [ In reply to ]
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la supposedly had a contract to ride one tour with them, yates has a three year contract, and the original info was that disco has a 'multi-year contract' to sponsor the team. with popo as the next go to guy, surely they won't drop out of the tour.

the race will go on even if amuricans don't watch it. and still be just as good, if not better.
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Re: Merckx on Armstrong and Ullrich [Vek] [ In reply to ]
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The "team" is a separate entity from discovery. Essentially a group of investors owns the team (LA is a part owner) and they sell naming rights to the team. Over the years this same team has been subaru-montgomery, 7-11, motorola, USPS, and discovery. The team will go on after LA and discovery, probably with a lower budget.

Also, The rules are still being negotitated, but if they are a top tier team (Protour) they will likely be required to be in the TdF.



Styrrell
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Re: Merckx on Armstrong and Ullrich [Vek] [ In reply to ]
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>Will Discovery channel even sponsor a TDF team next year? Is there a contract duration longer than this year?<<

Of course they will.

Nice rumor on Martin Dugard's blog on active.com that Disco is wanting.....IVAN BASSO. (And not Vino as he wouldn't sell as well to the American market.)

Basso in blue? Would he bring any other Italians????

clm

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com
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Re: Merckx on Armstrong and Ullrich [gerard] [ In reply to ]
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Gerard has it right here - OLN knows that its a 1-trick pony regarding the tour. They're milking the 2005 tour for all the Lance they can get because they know that next year there is no real reason for americans to be interested in the tour because there is very little coverage here in the US for cycling - it will just be a bunch of names nobody knows.

I liken it to the Carolina Hurricanes hockey team - they made it to the stanley cup, they had record-breaking attendance (and seat prices). Then no hockey for a year. I forecast that interest in the hurricanes here is mostly gone because people simply lost interest.

Maybe that is a crap analogy. Either way Gerard nailed it. Viewership of the 2006 tour will be wa down in the US because we don't have anyone being marketed as something worth watching to the average American.

OLN - The Only Lance Network.

jsargevt

PS - I do kind of hate the fact that they have those silly livestrong HP laptops on their set. I feel like the integrity of the broadcast is diminished by such overt lance-supporting-product placement although I know it doesn't really matter.

~~~~~~~
Do or do not there is no try.
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Re: Merckx on Armstrong and Ullrich [ironclm] [ In reply to ]
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what's your reasoning behind Vino not selling to the American market compared to Basso??
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Re: Merckx on Armstrong and Ullrich [ironclm] [ In reply to ]
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I couldn't follow Dugard's reasoning. Discovery is only figuring out now, after months of negotiating, that Vino is Kazak? And somehow the Ukranian Popovich is a better sell in the US, or what were they thinking when they hired him?


Gerard Vroomen
3T.bike
OPEN cycle
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Re: Merckx on Armstrong and Ullrich [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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Not my reasoning.

http://blogs.active.com/.../new-kournikova.html

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Discovery Channel has been in talks with Vinokourov to replace Lance Armstrong as team leader. Vino’s strong, unpredictable, and explosive. He’s capable of winning a Tour or three, and openly chafes that T-Mobile still considers Jan Ullrich their team leader. But will a U.S. cable channel allow a native of Kazakhstan to be team leader? Discovery invested in this team to advertise their product. So far, the $15 million-plus advertising fee paid to Tailwind Sports has paid off in spades. But I have a feeling they’d be a whole lot happier if the Disco Boys were led by someone a tad more American. The Cold War wasn’t so long ago. Anna Kournikova comparisons aside, it would still seem weird to have a native of the former Soviet Union to be the standard-bearer for an American cable channel. Vino is dynamic in his own reticent way. He is a handsome if smallish, man. As a cyclist, he has as much potential as anyone in the peloton. But will America tune in to watch him lead the Disco Boys from Strasbourg to Paris next July? I would, but it won’t feel like an American team, which is the product Discovery Channel desperately wants to sell.

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com
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Re: Merckx on Armstrong and Ullrich [gerard] [ In reply to ]
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Vino has that blonde, cold, calculating look. Basso and Popo would be easier sells. Basso and his mother's cancer and his cute little daughter--way better marketing.

Remember who they will be marketing to...not you and me, but rather, the masses. Though I don't really like Vino (or Jan).

clm

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com
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Re: Merckx on Armstrong and Ullrich [ironclm] [ In reply to ]
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That Dugard blog is a lot of crap...LOL...it makes no sense whatsoever.
I'd like to know how many will know that Kazakhstan and Ukrain were part of the USSR.
If a big guy with a terrible austrian accent was able to become governor if Kalifohnia, I am sure they can market Vino just fine...
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Re: Merckx on Armstrong and Ullrich [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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I think they can rebrand Vinokourov to be Kazak for "he who makes great wine". Then they get Coppola wines to sponsor the team and Bob Roll's your uncle.


Gerard Vroomen
3T.bike
OPEN cycle
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Re: Merckx on Armstrong and Ullrich [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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No, Vino would have to make a bunch of dumb movies first. Then marry a Kennedy.

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com
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Re: Merckx on Armstrong and Ullrich [ironclm] [ In reply to ]
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I guess Lance would be going for the record this year if not for.............In 1975, he attempted to win his sixth Tour de France, but became a victim of violence in sports. Many Frenchmen were upset that a Belgian might beat the record of five wins set by Frenchman Jacques Anquetil. Merckx held the yellow jersey for 8 days of the race, which raised his record to 95 total days, but during stage fourteen a spectator leapt from the crowd and punched him in the kidneys. He kept racing with a double fracture and took medications. The pain in combination with the medicine caused him to fall during the race. He eventually ran out of energy and lost his lead but on the last stage he showed one last sign of defiance by sprinting ahead of the peloton. He would never win the Tour de France again.

Imagine if that had happened to Lance??? What kind of uproar do you think would be going on now??
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Re: Merckx on Armstrong and Ullrich [gerard] [ In reply to ]
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man, you're in good shape today! ;-)
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Re: Merckx on Armstrong and Ullrich [TriDavis] [ In reply to ]
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What the hell are you talking about? I know Eddie's story.

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com
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Re: Merckx on Armstrong and Ullrich [ironclm] [ In reply to ]
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Eddy ;P
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Re: Merckx on Armstrong and Ullrich [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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ironclm, You are one of very few who know Merckx's Story. Most think it began with Lemond, and now Lance is the greatest ever. The competition Eddy faced was twice that of what Lances faces. Even Lemond had alot more comp. than Lance. Ullrich may be good but he is no BH, Pedro Delgato...ect.
Last edited by: TriDavis: Jul 13, 05 16:27
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Re: Merckx on Armstrong and Ullrich [TriDavis] [ In reply to ]
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>>ironclm, You are one of very few who know Merckx's Story. Most think it began with Lemond, and now Lance is the greatest ever.<<

Yeah, I forget about that.

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com
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Re: Merckx on Armstrong and Ullrich [TriDavis] [ In reply to ]
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ah, Pedro Delgado...the only guy who did test positive during the Tour, for who the test was confirmed positive, and yet kept his Tour... ;-)
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Re: Merckx on Armstrong and Ullrich [TriDavis] [ In reply to ]
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Actually not many road cycling enthusiasts have not heard of Eddie Merckx.

Here's another slant to the same story.

Back in the old days, practically all the pro riders contested most of the events. As such it was that legends like LeMond, Hinnault, Indurian and especially Merckx did dominate in so many of these events across the board.

Now it's different. Which pro rider in the Peloton wouldn't sacrifice the rest of the season if they felt they could really be in with a chance of winning Le Grand Boucle? In fact a larger proportion of the Pros do plan and focus their season and select events depending on their strengths. Such is the nature of the competition now, it's totally unpragmatic to try and do well in most of the bigger races spread through the season and still expect to win Le Tour.

So it's all about the change and evolution of the competition itself. The legends are legends but let's not use nostalgia to dilute Mr Armstrong's achievements. Misseur Lance is a legend and he may well be the greatest legend of all time depending on who you talk to. No matter ..from now and into the future when people talk about that most taxing, most highly contested and greatest of all bicycle races, they will not be able to do so without talking about that great bike racer, Lance Armstrong. Yes he has firmly embedded his name into the history books.

Even the Lance bashers who keep on bashing him; ironically keep his name at the forefront more than any other bike rider when their common protest is that they're tired of listening to his name. -:)
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Re: Merckx on Armstrong and Ullrich [kangaroo] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not bashing the current riders...but it is a bit boring watching lance sit back day after day...only attacking during a few stages and the TT's. Yesterday was a great example...the race had tougher climbs, yet there was a relatively big pack of riders finishing together because the pace wasn't pushed to the extreme that it was the day before. It seems to me, if they really want guys to go all out on a daily basis, there needs to be more incentive for them to do it. I know it's not likely to happen...but it would be cool.

Having said that...I can't imagine how much more punishing the race would be if you actually raced to win every single stage. The riders would probably have to resort to taking drugs just to finish ;)
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Re: Merckx on Armstrong and Ullrich [ironclm] [ In reply to ]
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So according to their reasoning, an Italian is more american than a Kazakh ???

I have trouble understanding their point, to say the least.
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Re: Merckx on Armstrong and Ullrich [reblAK] [ In reply to ]
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Well you know how it is. Le Tour is a long race with so many different types of stages and terrain, for riders who want to win the Green or the Polka Dot or a particular stge or the GC they prioritize their strategies accordingly. No one in their right mind would just go and attack every stage for a win everyday. Obviously the rider who did that would highly likely end up empty handed.

That's one of the things that makes the race interesting. Mindless racing for every stage win would lack the profoundity of speculating and seeing how the riders and teams strategise and their ability to react to the dynamics. And we all know whose best at that for the overall big win.

As I'm sure you know the main pack will not bother too much with a break of riders who are not in the race for any of the jerseys. But even in that situation it's interesting to see what unfolds in the break for the race for the stage win and it's interesting to see how much time the main pack will limit the time gap and whether the Disco boys can keep everybody else who matters in check. So far none of the main contenders have been able to pull off any kind of spectacular challenge. Seems like the Boss n the Disco boys are pretty much controlling what they need to. In contrast them other contenders need to pull off what they need to. In the last 6 they haven't been able to and so far in this one they haven't either. The pretenders really need to do something cuz if things go on the way they are, Rasmussen in 2nd will lose out in the long TT. The result short of a serious crash or illness will be inevitble. If the Boss and the Disco boys can turn it up another notch and there's no ability to react from anyone else the nails will be in the coffin even sooner. Yup that not going all out to chase breakaways stgs 11 and 12 could well mean Disco is still keeping some in reserve, which is not good news for the rest.

Talking about chasing breakaways, Robbie Mac's little hiding in the French bush trick must have got the sprinter teams flustered for awhile, worrying about and chasing down his fantastic phantom breakaway. After sneaking in from the rear of the peloton and getting a draft into town he still contested and won the sprint finish to take that stage 7. Could it be a little cheeky revenge for getting penalized in stg 3?

Anyway next 2 days coming up should afford the opportunity for the sprinters again if I'm not mistaken. I like the excitement when the sprinter teams start to crank it up coming into town. At those speeds with so many riders charging it's really hairy. It's a shame Boonen is out and one less Quick Step Team will not be charging down the final kilometers. Did you notice Leaky Gas (that's how it's pronounced) Team is always pulling setting the pace for the final sprint? But have they got a sprinter that they're setting up for? Cuz if they have he hasn't shown his face in any of the sprint finishes so far.
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Re: Merckx on Armstrong and Ullrich [martin] [ In reply to ]
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"i bet it's what he said/meant. the interview was most likely originally in french or german and got translated (badly)"
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Yeah, translated into "American," hence the extra stab at the French.

I would think Eddy gave the interview in French. He's a known Francophile, n'est-ce pas?
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