It's the French. Paris City Council.

our capitals under attack from al q most likely and scores dead injuredand you make a joke.

well done - your mom must be proud

Thursday, 7th July 2005
Many feared dead in London blasts


HORROR: Injured commuters head for safetyA SERIES of terrorist blasts ripped through central London today leaving scores of casualties.


Eye-witnesses reported seeing bodies piled in the wreckage of damaged Tube trains.

A double decker bus packed with people forced off the underground when the network was shut down was ripped apart by a massive blast.

Eyewitnesses said there were many fatalities.

The onslaught came as world leaders including Tony Blair and US President Bush were meeting in Scotland for the G8 summit.

As the scale of the attack became clear ministers attending the regular Thursday cabinet meeting convened an emergency Cobra committee to deal with the crisis.

The terror attacks began with a series of co-ordinated blasts on the Tube network.

Emergency services rushed to rescue trapped passengers.

At Liverpool Street Station in the City, the wounded were treated by medics as they lay on the concourse.

The Hilton Metropole on the Edgware Road was used as a makeshift treatment centre.

Explosion

There were unconfirmed reports that several people had died on the bus in the Russell Square area.

There were reports that more than one bus had blown up, but Scotland Yard said it was only dealing with one bus explosion.

Mainline stations were closed and Tube and bus services were cancelled across the city.
Metropolitan Police Commissioner Sir Ian Blair said there had been at least six explosions, but said the picture was still "very confused".

There was no official death toll but survivors of blasts at Edgware Road station and between Aldgate and Liverpool Street reported seeing piles of bodies.

Police at the scene of the bus blast also said several people had died.

The Prime Minister was preparing to make a live televised statement on the explosions, Downing Street said

The blasts were initially blamed on a power surge but it soon became clear that it was a co-ordinated terrorist attack on the capital.

The G8 gathering had prompted fears of a terrorist spectacular.

The scale of the explosions and the disruption it has caused the capital's transport network is bound to provoke comparisons with the al Qaida attacks on the Madrid railway network.

Home Secretary Charles Clarke said there have been "terrible injuries" from a "number of dreadful incidents" across London.

Procedures

He said: "As far as the police are concerned, they are in operational command and dealing with the situation in accordance with very well-established procedures in an extremely professional way.

"Health services are in support to deal with the terrible injuries that there have been and I want to express sympathy on behalf of the Government to the family and friends of those who have been injured.

"Underground services have been suspended and we advise people not to make unnecessary journeys in London at this stage in order to help the police and other emergency services deal with the current situation."

He said he would update the House of Commons later today and added: "Throughout all of this and the terrible situation that there is we will be updating the public very directly at regular intervals with the most up to date information that we have."

Sarah Reid, 23, a student doing work experience, was on the carriage next door to the one which was struck by the explosion.

Blast

Speaking after the ordeal, having been led out down the track, near Liverpool Street station, she told how she saw a carriage ripped apart with the roof blown off.

"I think some people may have died," she said.

The blast had pulled some people's clothes off.

She added: "I was on the train and there was a fire outside the carriage window and then there was a sudden jolt which shook us forward.

"The explosion was behind me.

"Some people took charge. We went out of the back of the carriage."

She said the explosion happened at 8.50am but she was not able to get off the carriage until 9.30am.

All London hospitals were put on major incident alert after today's explosions.

This is a sad post :

Zinc wrote :"It's the French. Paris City Council."

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Fuck a duck and try to fly

ok, let's just get focused and not lash out at each other. give Zinc the benefit of the doubt, he might not have seen the actually news yet. besides, we've got a tragedy on our hands...let's focus on the people that have been injured and traumatized.

those poor people, they were just going to work! this is beyond horrible, news. can you imagine??? what a world we live in.

kitty--yes, this is awful. Absolutely. But your reaction makes it sound like you are immune to the fact that this, and worse, happens everyday around the world. Is it because you identify more closely with the British as being "like me"?

I agree... at least one car bomb explodes in Bagdad EVERYDAY... I forgot, the people that die EVERYDAY don't speak english...

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"Yeah, no one likes a smartass, but we all like stars" - Thom Yorke


smartasscoach.tri-oeiras.com

Latest news out here suggests that it has been carried out by the same group that orchestrated the Madrid train bombings. This of course is as yet unconfirmed, although an AL Q site claims responsibility (along with other groups).

Who ever is responsible it is a tragedy, as is the lost of any lives. Terrorism rears it's ugly head once again on the British mainland, seemingly Al Q taking over where PIRA left off.

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"How bad can it be?" - SimpleS

Really dude how do you know how she feels globaly? This is a very horrorible thing and it made her think a certian way. Can't we focus on what has happened and not judge people for at least 10 minutes?

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customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

monk, if you can say that me expressing thoughts over this tragedy leads into some other kind of bullshit that you're talking about, then i don't know what to say to you. i won't entertain it.

Let's play nice on this, kids.

Monk, I get your point that we tend to "cry horror" when events like this occur anywhere other than the Middle East, Africa, etc. - where they routinely happen. We tend to see ourselves as somehow more civilized and "above the fray." That's clearly wrong and narrowminded.

But now's not the time. This is a terrible occurence, and right or wrong, it does hit "closer to home" for many of us here in the US. Point is, there is a distinction between terroristic events that occur within the borders of a country enmeshed in war and events such as these which occur in countries loosley involved in such conflicts.

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Dan DeMaio
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Life is like riding a bicycle.
To keep your balance you must keep moving.
- Albert Einstein

Paulo, that's an asshole response.

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

Monk - that's a very astute post, we do see things as more horrific as things hit "closer to home", kind of like here in the US, people don't seem to get to fired up about things until they hit the suburbs.

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People I've loved, I have no regrets
Some I remember, some I forget
Some of them living, some of them dead
All I want is to be home ".....Foo Fighters, Home

You're right, what an assholish thing to express publicly a truly global view of the world.

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"Yeah, no one likes a smartass, but we all like stars" - Thom Yorke


smartasscoach.tri-oeiras.com

sorry Cathy but Paulo is plain right.
Yes, it's terrible to have bombs in the metro in london but as Paulo said, there are countries where this happens everyday and these countries don't even get mentionned on the news...

Happens every day in Israel. Has been happening there for many years.

It wasn't Monk's point that was wrong it was the giant leap he took to include kittycat personally.

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customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

what was the only country to support the U.S. war on Iraq. big surprise this is then eh


sorry but I don't have time or energy to get emotional about this stuff.

the great and powerful play their games and the little guy pays their price. what the f____ else is new.

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"the trouble with normal is - it always gets worse"

- Cockburn

a bit early to draw conclusions...could be G8 related.

I fear turning on the TV in the morning these days,and todays horrible event leaves me numb.

The worse part is I just don't see an end to all this.

Do you guys think that this is just how a society evolves when it hits critical mass?

The fact that hatred permeates above all else.

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Seeing him in deep torment, I said. " You can have my last GU , but its been down my pants for most of the run". - John Hirsch

Take care of your body, its by far the coolest thing you're going to ever own.- Can't remember who told me this, but I love it.

it happens everyday all over the world. people are terrorized, murdered, raped, kidnapped, etc. the world is a sick place, always has been and always will be. humans have been grotesque to each other since the beginning of time...there is nothing new under the sun.

this doesn't mean that because someone expresses compassion, remorse for the situation, and horror at the sheer awfullness of the act, they don't realize that world is f'ed up, that violence is an everyday thing, and compassion is only for those of "their own kind" or language/heritage.

it is also true that most people all over the world are starving, sick, uncomfortable, and we are all quite wealthy in comparison. yet when we talk about zipp wheels, what food to eat when, what car/bike to buy, no one mentions this.

funny, when i spoke of how horrible this act was, a few people had the gall to respond as if I (or Americans) were an idiot and ignorant of the ways of violence in the world, as if I feel mostly towards those who have suffered in London only because they speak english, and I have disregard for all others. This is absurd, and another example of grotesque human behavior.

Which is exactly why this is a successful terrorist attack, regardless of who the "terrorists" are. Such is the dichotomy of terrorism: We are plainly, and rightly outraged at the action, yet this is precisely the reaction that lends success to the terrorists.

Frankly, this was a bit of masterful timing by whoever is responsible...the eyes of the world are on that part of the world with the G8 summit and even the news of London's Olympic selection yesterday... If, indeed, it turns out to be Al Qaeda, as is already being proposed, we had better start questioning our ability to bomb, kill and capture the group out of effectiveness...

Truly sad for those involved, and, indeed UK as a whole...

"Paulo, that's an asshole response. "

Ditto

actually, I just read in Le Monde that the attack was claimed by an unknown group which is part of Al Qaeda.

well done Ms. KC....

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Dan DeMaio
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Life is like riding a bicycle.
To keep your balance you must keep moving.
- Albert Einstein

I don't mean to distract from ANYTHING that is being said about this terrible day in London. I do wonder how Churchill would handle this situation. What kind of statements he would make and what kind of action he would engage. Not that it matters - Churchills time has come and gone. But as a minor history buff it does make me stop and think.

Tony Blair is clearly not W. Churchill...

The amazing thing is that the G8 was actually trying to do something about poverty in Africa and they get smoked? Just not sure what people think sometimes, if at all. Sad.

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infinIT Nutrition
Custom Blended Nutrition Solutions
http://www.infinITNutrition.com

The indomitable spirit of the British people will see them through this as it saw them through the dark days of WWII and the inexcusable and inhumane terrorism of the IRA. Stiff upper lip, chaps.

Terrorist attacks are becoming like a fad amongst these extremist factions and worse still morally supported by a large majority of the moderates even though they often kill their own kind. Logic has no place in religion. Simplicity in this faction dictates either you are a brother or you are not, your deeds good or bad murderess or charitable has no bearing.

If I had the power of mass influence I would gather all infedels, non believers and members of the ignorant masses together to irradicate the problem once and for all. They drew first blood, I reckon the Israelis got the right no quarter given idea. You do a dirty sneak bomb on my civillians I'll blow your town to smithereens. Don't blame me for deaths of your women and kids cuz you were the ones who are more to blame by starting it. And those kids more than likely gonna grow up becoming terrorists anyway. Want to be treated humanely it's real simple, quit with the terrorist thing. That's why as such a tiny nation Israel can survive even though surrounded by so many larger hostiles.

Unfortunately in the real world we got all this talk the talk, the USA has it's hands often restrained because of it's need to project the nice guy image to it's citizens and the rest of the world. Iin the meantime whose restraining these muthhas picking out their civillian targets at liesure?

can't rationalized any of these actions

They terrorists don't want things to improve for the people of Aferica. Besides I don't think the Africa situation had a single thing to do for their motivation to bomb and create chaos for the innocent people of London. Besides, I didn't think Africa was on the G8 agenda?

Never underestimate the power of divisiveness and predjudice.

Yeah Monk,

In many of those places you refering to their own assholes are doing it to their own people. Bring it to our people and cities, say what you will none of what you say justifies not taking revenge in the worse way and preventing the same assholes ever doing it again.

Yup and last year's train bombing was Spain wasn't it? Where next? Yeah these Jihad asses can take their pick right? I for one know this is not the world I find acceptable.

"...this is a successful terrorist attack..."

in the eyes of whom pray tell? and what kind of success?

accepting you are hopefully offering a "devil's advocate" post:

i honestly cannot imagine anyone of sane mind and sound human values and principles who would think killing and maiming points to any success other than clearly demonstrating one's inability to be a reasonable and likeable human being.

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Train hard...race well.
www.jimmishler.com
"Jim, I happen to agree with you" DougStern

Wow, for once i agree w/ mr. sac.

the savagery in london, while very, very nasty, still pales in comparsion to the scale of the killing and dismembering (by both sides) in iraq.

but, sac, why don't you take a truly 'global' view when you communicate with people individually? like on this forum?

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Where would you want to swim ?

Forgivness of debt, creation of economic opportunities and treatment of Aids was high on the list of priorities for the G8.

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infinIT Nutrition
Custom Blended Nutrition Solutions
http://www.infinITNutrition.com

yeah Cathy I'm with Francois and SAC on this one... this country (US) is still incredibly racist although at a more subvert level... no longer overt. one way this is expressed is the ho-hum manner with which we take in the daily news from Baghdad. We are aghast that are troops are dying, 1,2,3 maybe more a day. But not a single news group even bothers to try and total the number of Iraqi deaths and how most attacks are Iraqi on Iraqi... why... because they know their audience doesnt care.... sick just plain sick

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36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
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But aren't they always?

You agreeing with me on this is just the beginning. Welcome to the SAC side of the force :-)

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"Yeah, no one likes a smartass, but we all like stars" - Thom Yorke


smartasscoach.tri-oeiras.com

But not a single news group even bothers to try and total the number of Iraqi deaths and how most attacks are Iraqi on Iraqi... why... because they know their audience doesnt care.... sick just plain sick

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This is fucking bullshit...do you actually watch the news? Both Fox and CNN generally give as much coverage to each attack on the Iraqis as it does to US troops. And if we didn't care about the Iraqis, then why are Americans still giving their lives over their???? We obviously care a very great deal. Go stuff yourself.

Spot

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Taco cat spelled backwards is....taco cat.

Oh, you're "The artist formerly known as Greg/ORD"!!! I take that back, LOL.... ;-)

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"Yeah, no one likes a smartass, but we all like stars" - Thom Yorke


smartasscoach.tri-oeiras.com

Actually, I'm always amazed there aren't more terroist attacks in Europe, especially with all the public transportation and masses of people. I was amazed when I took a train from Rotterdam to Paris, there must have been several hundred people on board, but there want' one iota of security, we could have brought bags of bombs onto that train enough to blow trough the train and station (thousands).

These attacks will never stop, like it or not we've entrenched ourselves in a lifelong war with Islamic extremists.

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People I've loved, I have no regrets
Some I remember, some I forget
Some of them living, some of them dead
All I want is to be home ".....Foo Fighters, Home

[reply]sorry Cathy but Paulo is plain right.
Yes, it's terrible to have bombs in the metro in london but as Paulo said, there are countries where this happens everyday and these countries don't even get mentionned on the news...[/reply]

Well, when something happens every day, it isn't really news. If that were not true, the "news" you watch on tv or read about would be filled with all of these occurrances and you could never get through it all.
A bomb going off in England is news for the Western World. Doesn't happen every day around these parts and therefore will get reported on.

Where is UK Gear Muncher this morning? Let's just get all the ST London peeps accounted for please!!

Well I should have known that this would have spiraled into a pissing match already here on ST. I understand what you are saying but I would draw a distinction. First, the reaction is no different then if something happens to your family vs. the same thing happening to countless others. People die everyday of all kinds of things but it is a bit more painful if it is your family. (Would all those people be wearing yellow bands if not for Lance? What about the thousands of others who suffer every day?)

Second, the last time I checked no one from England or Spain jumped on a bus with NOTHING but civilians with the sole intent to kill and mame. The next time a little girl gets kidnapped and raped I guess my reaction should be, well it happens all the time what is the big deal?

Sometimes you need to focus on home more than the globe.

Regardless, to all of you who live across the pond, I for one extend my wishes and prayers to you.

I did not say that theye were going to get anything done... ;)

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infinIT Nutrition
Custom Blended Nutrition Solutions
http://www.infinITNutrition.com

"the last time I checked no one from England or Spain jumped on a bus with NOTHING but civilians with the sole intent to kill and mame."



So what you're saying basically is that as long as "they" kill themselves and not "us", it's ok?

I don't think you're saying that, but it sure looks like it, and since you read a lot into what I posted, can I too?....

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"Yeah, no one likes a smartass, but we all like stars" - Thom Yorke


smartasscoach.tri-oeiras.com

Thanks (most of you) for the kind words from "over the pond"

Currently 45 dead and near a thousand injured, thankfully nowhere near 9/11 but not good all the same.

Jim,
No, this was NOT offered in a devil's advocate manner. My observations are clinical in nature, and come from someone well versed in terrorism, anti-terrorism, and counter-terrorism. The success of the attack has NOTHING to do with my concurrence with their ideology or tactics. In fact I abhore them right alongside you and the others posting here. But that does NOT diminish the fact that these attacks have captured, and are currently monopolizing the world's media, and will garner attention for whatever group proving to be responsible. If it turns out to be Al Qaeda or an affiliate group, it is a large stick in the eye to us, who claim to be putting them out of business. Acts like this will continue to embolden both new and old converts to their cause. That is not sympathy or empathy to them or their ideas. That is just cold, hard, fact.


"I honestly cannot imagine anyone of sane mind and sound human values and principles who would think killing and maiming points to any success other than clearly demonstrating one's inability to be a reasonable and likeable human being."

If we want success against these folks, we'd better START IMAGINING...its not pretty, its certainly not comfortable...but we'd better start... And DON'T mistake this as me thinking we need to accept their actions in any way, shape or form...we don't need to get touchy-feely here...

Agreed except "we" ( the western world in general) did not pick this fight, it was brought to us.

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I'm just a 10 cent rider on a $2,500.00 Bike

wow. I count two posts worrying about STers in London, more than twenty bashing each other about what we should be thinking/saying/feeling. c'mon, guys...let's leave that to the TV anchors and the pundits. keep your eye on the road, not the shit in the ditch.

glad to hear you're all right, sjd. anyone hear from UK gear muncher or jk_allen yet? and we have some other brits on here too, but names elude me at the moment. sigh...a heavy way to start the day.

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"At every endurance event, there comes a time when you'll say, 'What the fuck am I doing here?' And then you'll say, 'This is what I do.'"
--John Spas

No, SAC my point is that I agree that there are truly horrible things that happen every day in places all over the world including Iraq, Afghanistan, most of Africa and on and on. I think everyone feels for those people who are stuck in those situations but eventually the sheer weight of the death and destruction makes it impossible to react to each event.

This attack was carried out in a place that is not a war zone by people who had a single intent which was to attack and kill civilians. This is not about us vs them in the sense you make it. It is a case of people who think this sort of attack is evil vs. those who believe it is acceptable and that they will be rewarded for such savegery.

Anyway, I just don't think that reacting to todays news means you don't care about the other tragedies occuring daily and although I live over here I feel attacked as well.

Well, Iraq, while under a terrible dictatorship, wasn't a war zone either before the "allied" invasion. In fact, it was a country where islamic fundamentalism was under control. And a country that didn't serve as a base for terrorists. Not anymore.

15 years ago it was more likely a terror attack in London, Paris or Madrid than in Bagdad... funny isn't it....? or maybe not...

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"Yeah, no one likes a smartass, but we all like stars" - Thom Yorke


smartasscoach.tri-oeiras.com

whatever

I am I am new to the ST forum, so I mostly just read and learn. But this time I had to speak up. I am a student of Public Health. I study how to help those that are suffering, sick and uncomfortable. I am very well aware of ALL of the levels of human suffering but that does not make what happened in London any less shocking. It is all a matter of perspective and reality. What is my reality is not yours; your reality is not mine. So when something like this happens so close to home, or to something that I can identify with, one tends to stand up and take notice. I think that very few Americans are NOT aware of the bombings that happen everyday in other places because we have so many people constantly reminding us of this fact. This is also not to portray myself as naive to the US's involvement and support of many of these conflicts, and I am certainly not supporting our current Administration's global policies, but just as no one person is perfect, nor is any one country. If another country can do it better, then be our guests - and also bring your bank account....

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Life isn't measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the number of moments that take your breath away.

While I generally agree that citizens of the US aren't terribly well versed in what goes on outside their own backyard, I would hardly say anyone else is THAT much more well versed than they are. Especially when it comes to foreign diplomacy.
One thing I know Americans care for are their friends and I know that the Americans are wishing everyone over in Britain a speedy recovery.

Well, I guess it depends on how you define a war zone. I would say Iraq was a far cry from being anything like Spain or England and while there may not have been the type of violence there is now it was certainly not a peaceful nation. Setting aside the discussion of Iraq, my point is still that we (nor do the British or Spanish) load people with bombs and send them into civilian centers with the intent to kill and mame.

Interesting point, your right 15 years ago it would have been much more likely in England and I would say sad more than funny.

I would hope he has more important things to do than post to a meaningless internet forum.

Troll.

He's Bournemouth based as am I, 90 miles away. Safe and sound, thanks for asking though, Kerri.

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"How bad can it be?" - SimpleS

I understand your point but I think the "success" of the attack will be short lived.

I believe the response of the British populace will be similar to that of America after 9/11. Rather than Britain pulling out of Iraq I believe you will see a greater involvement and resolve to bring the cowards of this attack to justice.

I disagree that this is a "stick in our eye." Know one believes that terrorism will ever be eliminated from the earth. What we can do by mounting an offensive attack is to keep them off their game and responding to us rather than us responding to them. Unfortunately for us it only takes 1 or 2 terrorists to perpetrate a despicable act.

Knowing Bryce's workload, I doubt it.

Latest news is that there are over 33 fatalities confirmed, with over 350 injured. This toll makes it the largest terrorist attack to ever hit the British mainland.

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"How bad can it be?" - SimpleS

i'm a firm believer in:

"...say anything you want to about me, just say something about me..."

that said however, i do not seek deragatory reviews.

anyone who seeks attention by killing and maiming has no success to claim and only deserves pity. there is no victory in being diseased. that way of thinking is not successful. i cannot imagine acknowledging it as such. obtaining attention which is negative and speaks to the inhumanity of the perp is simply not successful attention.

that's not a trained counter terrorist thought...just human thought.

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Train hard...race well.
www.jimmishler.com
"Jim, I happen to agree with you" DougStern

My condolonces. I love London and Londoners and this is a sad blow. I have no doubt they will recover and be more determined than ever before to defend their way of life.

Thank you for your kind wishes, the English are a very resilient race. It will bring us together and unite at a very difficult, just like the much vaulted "Blitz spirit" different generation, same grit running through.

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"How bad can it be?" - SimpleS

I think there is a little bit of Churchill in all Brits. Hang tough.

Thanks, when I posted that the last thing I had heard was talking to a friend in London and she mentioned that she had heard a loud bang and there was something on the radio about power surges on the subway.

For any of you who live in a big city it's fairly standard to have things go wrong on the subway (like in Boston a few years ago when the station suddenly filled with smoke and a worker calmly walked past me with a fire extinguisher and performed the apparently routine measure of putting out a fire underneath the train I was about to board.)

I seriously doubt it...first the Brits never wanted to go to Iraq in the first place...Tony Blair being pretty much the only guy in the whole UK who wanted to go...check the polls when Blair said 'ok, let's go'...
I don't think this has changed much since then and the answer of the Brits will likely be to get the soldiers out of Iraq...

I'll bet you a pound to a penny that the troops don't leave until the job is done, that's not how we operate. As for the Brits never wanting to be there in the first place, it wasn't Blair but Thatcher that lead us there. And we wanted to finsh the job in the first place, not pull out and leave Saddam (alive) in power with a slapped wrist told to behave as the world was watching him.

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"How bad can it be?" - SimpleS

I am fairly sure I recall polls around 90% of the brits against going to Iraq with Bush....

blah blah blah....
whenever you guys realize that going to war the traditional way against terrorists doesn't work...
whenever you guys realize that that guerilla that started in Iraq is a lose-lose situation...

Pot calling the kettle black...

That would have been the second instance ( can't recall what "Desert....." the operation was called) the first was in the 90's when Thatcher sent the troops can't recall who was President then. You know as well as I (probably better as a maths prof) that statistics can prove anything. How large was the cross section, was it timed directly after the first British troops were killed (I believe it was), if that was a true reflection of public opinion do you think Blair would have left the troops there when he was seeking re-election?

I think not.

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"How bad can it be?" - SimpleS

easy now, no antagonism here... check this post out (see below). What i meant about lack of coverage is that it is fluff coverage and no one watches... did you see how soooooo many people were glued to the TV's this morning or to radios or hell even to this forum when the bombings happened.... but interesting... we dont do this for every daily bombing in Iraq.

Markus Mucus

Jul 7, 2005, 7:10 AM

Post #45 of 78 (321 views)
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Re: Bombs in London [Francois] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

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In Reply To:

sorry Cathy but Paulo is plain right.
Yes, it's terrible to have bombs in the metro in london but as Paulo said, there are countries where this happens everyday and these countries don't even get mentionned on the news...

Well, when something happens every day, it isn't really news. If that were not true, the "news" you watch on tv or read about would be filled with all of these occurrances and you could never get through it all.
A bomb going off in England is news for the Western World. Doesn't happen every day around these parts and therefore will get reported on.

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36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
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And your strategy for success is what? Invite OBL to go for a train ride to the Forest de Compiègne?

I am marrying a brit next month and we are an odd couple. I am an American libertarian and she is a British/european(Born in london but raised mostly in Europe as her father was a UK ambassador) liberal, at least she was until today. This morning she actually said if she had the chance she would want to castrate the bastards and make them swallow their own balls.

The only way a bully/coward backs down is if you stand up to them.

"Those that cannot remember the past, are condemned to repeat it."

It sure doesnt take long for the US haters to stand up and make there selfs known on this forum, Hate me if it makes you feel better,just because the US news doesnt show enough footage you should line up all Americans and shoot us? Do i care about the people in countries where car bombs go off everyday? Yes,,I do not care where they are from,but beating up on Americans (average Joe) is not going to change what our leaders do,yes we can vote,but still things change slowly.

The British people are a little more worldly wise than the average American and for the most part they know that the war in Iraq has absolutely nothing to do with the "war on terror" or Al Qaeda. The same can be said for the people of Spain.

There will be a lot of pressure on Blair now to remove British troops from Iraq and focusing the British military on fighting Al Qaeda.

Of course the peanut gallery here in the US will accuse them of cowardice or running away if they do so. The world is getting tired of fighting Bush's war and listening to his nonsense about spreading freedom.

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

Just a wild thought.

Does anyone think this may be G8 related and these acts were perpetrated by economic/environmental extremists? I tend to think not. More than likely Al Qaeda(or Al Qaeda related) but has anyone else had similar thoughts/suspicions?

aus-tri, you say, -

"But not a single news group even bothers to try and total the number of Iraqi deaths and how most attacks are Iraqi on Iraqi... why... because they know their audience doesnt care.... sick just plain sick "

and Spot responds -

"This is fucking bullshit...do you actually watch the news? Both Fox and CNN generally give as much coverage to each attack on the Iraqis as it does to US troops. And if we didn't care about the Iraqis, then why are Americans still giving their lives over their???? We obviously care a very great deal. Go stuff yourself."

I fully agree with Spot. If you're talking about Iraq it ain't the US Forces that are making deliberate attacks on the citizens there. If you're ever unlucky enough to get a loved one bombed for nothing you may just change your tune. In the meantime just mind your manners to the ones who have been victimized and don't turn it into some stupid politico comment as if you can see the big pic better than others. What do you want to do? Take sides with them fanatic assholes? Just like that idiot American kid caught fighting for the Taliban in Afghanistan? aus-tri are you really an Aussie or a Muslim supporting terrorist actions? Cuz if you're OZy I can't believe the crap you're dishing out after the Bali incident.


Cut n paste my previous post -

In many of those places you refering to their own assholes are doing it to their own people. Bring it to our people and cities, say what you will none of what you say justifies not taking revenge in the worse way and preventing the same assholes ever doing it again.

Yup and last year's train bombing was Spain wasn't it? Where next? Yeah these Jihad asses can take their pick right? I for one know this is not the world I find acceptable.

"...masterful timing..."

more like mousey agenda.

nothing masterful going on there at all.

simple cowardice which is deserving of no praise of any sort.

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Train hard...race well.
www.jimmishler.com
"Jim, I happen to agree with you" DougStern

What funny to me is how the treatment of Prisoners was in the news and how horrible we Americans are but some groups can set off car bombs and thats justified?? Everyone on this forum knows all americans are stupid,fat, mean,want to kill everything that moves,Right? We bomb babys, smoke and drink while wearing our little arm bands,give me a break, lets look at you home town and see how many retards are in your house!

Just an assholish view of the world. Can you honestly say you'd respond exactly the same way to an attack which kills 50 Iraqis as you would that kills 50 Portuguese?

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And you have an assholish way of reading I guess, because you're taking my initial post out of context.

Are you an asshole for not noticing that I made the initial post regarding someone not british commenting on the London bombs, or are you an asshole for noticing this, but going ahead and making this comment in order to further turn this debate into a pissing context?

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"Yeah, no one likes a smartass, but we all like stars" - Thom Yorke


smartasscoach.tri-oeiras.com

"obtaining attention which is negative and speaks to the inhumanity of the perp is simply not successful attention."

Jim,
That is a statement eminating from OUR point of view. To the perpetrators, this was highly successful. If you or I think this will not draw more to their side of the coin, we will be sadly mistaken. In fact, we'd be foolish to discount the attack's value...U.S, UK, and allies have been pouring huge amounts of capital into the War on Terrorism...and where has it gotten us? Make no mistake, this is a highly coordinated, skillfully executed attack, probably by a group of people we are claiming to be eradicating...If it is Al Qaeda or an affiliate, it is proof that they remain alive and well, and even more importantly, viable and capable of carrying out long-term, logistically intensive, coordinated attacks...and this despite the fact, as I said, that we are pouring the resources of countries against them...

I'm pretty sure you and I have the same opinion of these folks doing these attacks, especially with regard to the legitimacy of their particular cause. But we shouldn't let that cloud our estimation of how they operate, how they CONTINUE TO OPERATE. Success is success, no matter how much we hate to admit it. We can spin it however we want to...but for them to be able carry out such an attack points to some amount of failure on our part to accomplish our mission. With skill and careful consideration, we can relegate their "success" to the trash bin of history, much like we eventually did with the Nazi's initial attack during the battle of the bulge...

I am obviously being misunderstood.... I find the animals performing these acts dispicable... for what i see they want to see us all living in huts with no running water... shit, come on, innovation is a good thing not a sin against God, Yaweh, Allah, Budda, Etc. But what i am getting at is that a good portion of western society does not care about what is going on in Iraq... look at the polls... get us out... is what they scream why.... because to western society the lives of Iraqis are not worth the lives of westerners. I am sad to see where we have ended up in this mess... a life is a life. A quote from Hitler actually might define the western view... "a single death/murder (one that can be identified and sighted) is a tragedy.... a million is a statistic (unknown Iraqis)" I am not saying these are my views but rather those of the society that we live in. I wish bull headed Bu(ll)sh(it) had never invaded but then where does that leave iraqis?

If only there were a way to eliminate their corrupted views... then perhaps we could eliminate them.

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36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
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If the British invaded Morocco in response to these attacks, Al Qaeda terrorists would demand their withdrawal. Does that mean there's a connection between the London attacks and Morocco?

Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. The invasion of Iraq had nothing to do with catching those responsible for 9/11.

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

[reply]The British people are a little more worldly wise than the average American and for the most part they know that the war in Iraq has absolutely nothing to do with the "war on terror" or Al Qaeda. The same can be said for the people of Spain.

There will be a lot of pressure on Blair now to remove British troops from Iraq and focusing the British military on fighting Al Qaeda.

Of course the peanut gallery here in the US will accuse them of cowardice or running away if they do so. The world is getting tired of fighting Bush's war and listening to his nonsense about spreading freedom.[/reply]


Do you care to share with all of us less then worldly ill informed fat Americans exactly how you know that "the war in Iraq has absolutely nothing to do with the war on terror or Al Qaeda". And don't give me the bullshit no blood for oil line... it would be less expensive to buy the oil then fight the war.

You really believe that the people in the upper levels of both US and UK goverments like fighting an expensive ($$ and politics) war and killing other humans. If you truely think that then I feel very sorry for you.

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The impact of the invasion of Iraq on the "war on terror" is twosome:

- It allowed for a new country to be used a base for training and execution of terrorist attacks.

- Every blood thirsty fundamentalist that wants to kill an american now has thousands of them available in a country near them. Before the invasion, it was hard to kill americans, not anymore.



The impact of the invasion of Iraq is simple: It generated MORE terrorism.

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"Yeah, no one likes a smartass, but we all like stars" - Thom Yorke


smartasscoach.tri-oeiras.com

The onus is not on me or anyone else for that matter to disprove the link between Iraq and Al Qaeda, the onus is on those who made the decision to invade to prove the link. Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. If you have evidence to the contrary please share.

The White House has even given up trying to show a link. The invasion excuse du jour is "spreading freedom and democracy" or some such nonsense.

T

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

We tried the do nothing responce after the bombing of the Cole and it got us 9/11. Pulling out of Iraq is not going to stop terrorist attacks.

It is easy to kill people when a terroist is willing to trade his life for that of his target.

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"nothing masterful going on there at all.

simple cowardice which is deserving of no praise of any sort."


Jim,
Only fools dismiss the capability of the enemy. As long as we keep dismissing them as "cowards" and other such low-life...we will continue to see attacks like this. They are not a large, conventional country and force which we can defeat using overwhelming numbers, mass, and logistics...on the order of, say, a monolithic Nazi Germany. If large scale formations and battles are no solution against them, why would we think the same demonizing tactics we used against Germany and Japan in WWII will work against these folks?

Being right simply isn't going to be enough in this fight, as much as we want it to be so.

kitty--wasn't trying to start a fight. Just pointing out how many of us, and I do not exclude myslef, react more distinctly, when these things happen to people who we feel are more "like us". Consider, for instance, Genocide in Africa, the bombings in Israel, the counter-attacks (or however, you may view them) in Palestine, the daily bombings in Iraq, etc. No horror expressed in ST main page.

Did your original post not say this in so many words: Kittycat and Americans in general deserve criticism because they only care when Americans/British die and dont care when non-English speakers die?

And you didnt answer my question: Can you honestly say you'd respond exactly the same way to an attack which kills 50 Iraqis as you would that kills 50 Portuguese?

To be fair, replace Iraqis with Americans and the same goes for monk too. [edit] monk slipped in whil I was writing... Monk, do you really feel this phenomenon is so wrong? Weren't you more upset after 9/11 than you were after the Rwandan massacres?

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So where is your proof that Iraq had anything to do with the Cole attack, the 3 African embassy attacks or 9/11?

The 2 countries with the most anti-American sentiment on the planet which produce the most Al Qaeda terrorists, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, are our so called allies in this war. If we really were involved in a war on terror the tanks would be in Lahore, not Baghdad.

What is your solution to terror attacks? invade the wrong country? you think that will solve the problem?

Do you think the London bombers were Iraqis?.....I bet you dollars to donuts they were either Pakistani, or Arab.

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

Thanks for clarifying your wrong understanding of my post.

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"Yeah, no one likes a smartass, but we all like stars" - Thom Yorke


smartasscoach.tri-oeiras.com

Just to make no mistake, either...these folks are anathema to me. I despise their tactics on a human level. I disagree with their view for the world.

   



Be careful, Paulo agreed with me, and look what got handed out to him.

My apologies then. Can you give me the true clarification?

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jeez guy...i'm nearly at a loss here. how 'bout if i try going in this direction for a moment?

just because these idiots know how to set off bombs does not make them successful. your characterization of this assault is whacked out. in your mind, success is measured by the depth of the action. in mine, and i believe many others, success is truly measured by the intent. the greater depth is achieved by the greater intent.

for you to assert that some idiots setting off bombs equals the failure of free and conscientious people is wrong. just wrong. it is now taking on the looks of a veiled poke. take it somewhere else. good people died today because some trash made some bombs. the trash won absolutely nothing.

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Train hard...race well.
www.jimmishler.com
"Jim, I happen to agree with you" DougStern

"The 2 countries with the most anti-American sentiment on the planet which produce the most Al Qaeda terrorists, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, are our so called allies in this war. If we really were involved in a war on terror the tanks would be in Lahore, not Baghdad."

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I really do not understand this logic...just because some of the terrorists were from those countries does not mean we should invade them....Richard Reid, the shoe-bomber, was from England...should we invade England? The governments of Pakistan and Saudi Arabia are helping the US in the war on terror...fighting in Afghanistan would be impossible without Pakistani assistance. Governments that support terror are the focus of the war on terror, not real estate where some terrorists happened to be born. As far as I can tell, there are no terrorist training camps in Saudi Arabia nor Pakistan, while there were many in Afghanistan. Just because a person is from a country does not mean that country supports terrorism.

Spot

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___________________________________________________
Taco cat spelled backwards is....taco cat.

Let me say again that I didn't mean to start an argument or engender ill-will between myself and others, or amongst others. I regret that that was the effect of my post. I particularly regret that SAC has taken so much abuse for seeing some merit in my post, but I'll get over that pretty quickly--in fact, I am feeling better already.

To be clear, Casey, I'm pretty sure as well, that the timing has ZERO to do with the Olympic bid win...that is just luck...much like the complete collapse of the towers was more than Al Qaeda expected on 9/11...it simply adds to the effect...in this case, even MORE eyes were on London...consider yourself in the London Olympic committee's shoes...how much more effort do you think they're going to put into security now?

I'll bet a box of donuts this attack WAS timed for the G8 summit, and was probably conducted by Al Qaeda or an affiliate. London is close enough to the summit. Hitting the summit itself would have been prohibitively difficult with all of the security surrounding the world leaders. This is more like horse-shoes and hand grenades. Blair is "hosting" the summit in his back yard and gets hit in his seat of power. Close enough to make a point...threatening Blair, Bush, and the rest of them, while putting Ukers in a panic for a few hours...

1. I believe that our elected officials are good people and try to make good decisions.

2. I believe that the governments of both the US and the UK have credible information that they do not share with media.

3. As such I don't believe any civilian is well enough informed to make the "right" call but I do believe that our leaders are.

As you rightly point out, there is more to this mess then meets the eye. It wasn't by accident that all but one 9/11 terrorist was carrying a Saudi passport... but of course they are friends... Ever notice just how close Iraq is to Saudi Arabia or how close Afghanistan is to Pakistan? You don't think that perhaps we are running covert opps into Saudi Arabia and Pakistan do you? Do you think that Bush or Blair could say that to the media?. I amazes me watch individuals form their opinions on such little data.

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Eheheheheheheheh...

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"Yeah, no one likes a smartass, but we all like stars" - Thom Yorke


smartasscoach.tri-oeiras.com

Therein lies the problem with fighting a war on international terrorists. Invading nations to fight terrorists makes no sense whatsoever, but at least if you are going to go down that road you should target one that actually has some terrorists in it! Iraq had no connection to Al Qaeda and no Al Qaeda presence so to say we went in there to fight terror is a big crock of shit.

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

"it is now taking on the looks of a veiled poke."

No poke intended, Jim. I thought we were having a decent discussion here. I DO disagree with you, though, that we should just dismiss these people as "trash [who] made some bombs"...That is garden variety criminal stuff...no...these people are more organized, more able to alter tactics, more thinking, more calculating, more smart...than relegating them to "trash" gives them credit for.

"Good people died today"...you're damned right they did. And I'm as mad as you about it. I'm sure I feel as much sympathy AND empathy for the people of the UK as you do.

That doesn't change the fact that whoever did this today enjoyed a tactical success, probably an operational success, though it remains to be seen if this contributes to any strategic success on their part...I rather doubt, if it is their intent to force Britain to pull out of Iraq and other actions with the US, that they will find strategic success based on this attack...

I also did NOT say that we have failed as a people, or that we are wrong in our cause. But if this is Al Qaeda's work, then we have failed, to date, to prevent a recurrance of major terrorist action on their part. We can stick our heads in the sand and call it otherwise...but almost 4 years ago we vowed to go after these folks and stop them from doing this sort of thing.

We are right. I am with you, Jim. I gladly serve in the military that consitutes a large part of the effort to stop these people. But, if this is Al Qaeda, then something isn't fully working.

 [/reply]Therein lies the problem with fighting a war on international terrorists. Invading nations to fight terrorists makes no sense whatsoever, but at least if you are going to go down that road you should target one that actually has some terrorists in it! Iraq had no connection to Al Qaeda and no Al Qaeda presence so to say we went in there to fight terror is a big crock of shit.[/reply]


You just said that "The onus is not on me or anyone else for that matter to disprove the link between Iraq and Al Qaeda, the onus is on those who made the decision to invade to prove the link."

The problem is that you keep stating this as a fact but you can't support it. The fact is that you don't know that Iraq had no connection to Al Qaeda. Guess what, the only people privileged to this information are the ones that are making the decisions. Which is the way that it should be.

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i can honestly say, when i continue to learn of the ill treatment of women in the middle east, watch news stories/read information about the oppression of peoples in Africa, think of the rape of young girls/boys and gross onspread of AIDS, learn more of the sexual slave markets in mexico/all over the world, and think about the general corruption and violence all over the world it sickens me. this is why i have to limit my news exposure.

you don't know this, but personally one of my biggest anthems is "anti diamonds". not only do i refuse to participate in the sham of buying an item that is in fact, not rare, but I refuse to support one of the most monopolized wretched industries in existance today. and beyond my reluctance of "getting swindled" by DeBeers, my sheer hatred of the diamond industry is much deeper.

see, most people don't have much knowledge of the diamond wars in africa. how there are literally tribes of people that have amputated arms, legs, all because they try to protect their lands from diamond excavation, etc. elderly people, young children, no one is safe. and no one can tell me that DeBeers is innocent...I will not get into details as this is not the topic at hand, but I can tell you this is one hot hot spot for me. These people who suffer are nothing like me, yet I am infuriated and ever committed to the anti-diamond anthem.

the reality is, i feel passionate about all peoples who have been done unjustly, and feel compassion to all of those innocents who suffer at the hands of evil systems--government or otherwise. these innocents can be in my own backyard, across the street, or across the globe. it doesn't matter, i feel compassion and rage. compassion because they are human for God's sakes, and rage because I am powerless against the tryanny and there is so much of it.

jesus Christ thats some twisted thinking. So its OK for the US to invade Canada if they can't prove that there aren't any Al Qaeda members there?



If the government wants to take the country to war they have to tell us why. If they have information linking Iraq to 9/11 they should tell us. You might be happy being kept in the dark but most of us are not.

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

Buy yourself the new bike. Go for a long ride. Come home and open a bottle of good Pinot. It won't solve the worlds problems, but you will feel better.

I am just pointing out that you continue to state as fact things that you can't support. No I don't enjoy "being kept in the dark" but I do recongize that there are times when governments must withhold information in order to be effective.

We elect our government we should have a bit of trust that they are doing the right thing. You see I believe that people are good, I guess that is the difference between you and I.

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see, i shouldn't have got started in on this shit. all i wanted to do was to extend a few casual thoughts about how awful the situation in London is...and look where it's gone now. i'm all worked up and ready to start a revolution.

fuck it. you give great advice .

I hear you. I never talk politics here but for some reason I chimed in today. fuck it I'm going to lunch.

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That was because of the Pinot recommendation, right ;)

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(No horror expressed in St main page) Correct, this is a tri site,why would there be,but you were quick to step on Kitty for how she responded,but you have never posted how horrorable the genocide etc etc is,so i guess your one of the who gives a shit Americans you so strongly seem to hate. Get off your high horse

Well, Matt, maybe a big crock of shit is what we needed to draw the flies away from the picnic.

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Azby

So its OK for us to fight our wars on someone else's soil? Its OK for us to turn Iraq into a bloodbath so we can draw out Al Qaeda?

I'm glad our children are more important than the children of Iraq....you know its arrogant attitudes like this that fuel hatred for this country in the muslim world. Its OK for thousands of innocent Iraqis to die if we can keep one American alive.

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

"Does that mean there's a connection between the London attacks and Morocco?"

I think you're missing something in your logic. What would be the justification for the invasion? Because Moroccans were involved in the attacks, or because intelligence services believed the Moroccan government had developed nasty weapons for use against the British?

I still don't recall Bush stating that 9/11 was the impetus for the Iraq invasion.

"If the British invaded Morocco in response to these attacks, Al Qaeda terrorists would demand their withdrawal. "

So then is Al Qaeda the check on Western (Bush's) aggression / imperialism?

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king of the road says you move too slow
KING OF THE ROAD SAYS YOU MOVE TOO SLOW

I went through Moorgate at about 8.50-55 Kings Cross on the Northern Line just before 9am.

I dont think the fact this would happen came as a surprise to anyone, obviously when it happens its a surprise but the fact it could / would was almost expected, at least amongst people I work with and know.

It was a strange day, I arrived late for work, normally get in at 8, left 1 hour late and went through Kings Cross and Moorgate but on the Northern Line, not the Piccadilly, so not the same line as the bomb.

Our trains, I work on the Underground, were all stopped at about 9.45, when I left work we had 89 trains in various locations across London.

I think it was apparent very early on, at least at work, that it was something other than infrastructure related but I left work at 1.30pm to get home and it only took 35 minutes to drive from Golders Green in North London to Trafalgar Square and I walked in to Charing Cross and hopped straight on a train.

It was absolutely bizarre, everything in the station was shut but it was just a regular commuting journey, everyone broke out their books, papers and PSP.

I suppose aside from the outstanding job that the Police, the Emergency Services and the Transport Police did, I was most impressed by how fast people started to resume regular activities. By the time I split, people were out all over London doing S**t and quite frankly that was a resumption of normality which has to be good.

ok.

i'll agree to have differing viewpoints on trash. no problem.

but trash they remain, regardless of what they call themselves, what kind of organization they have, whatever tactics they employ, who they claim to represent, what goals they pursue...it all still comes down to trash. there remains no victory resulting from their bombs.

by your apparent evaluation, this trash comes off sounding like admirable adversaries because they are organized and think about what they do.

thats just crap. none of those factors magically transform trash into something different.

your idea of connecting our supposed failure to not being able to prevent an act of terrorism is still very wrong. we did not fail as they did not succeed. any piece of trash can set off a bomb, just about anywhere, at any time. it is not normally a preventable act. we did not, nor will we in the future...fail...due to trash being trash. allowing them no victory is not sticking our heads in the sand. its simply calling cowardice exactly what it is. please don't give justification or award additional attention which sounds positive to trash.

i'm wondering about your counter-terrorism expertise based on the theories you present.

fighting a global war against trash-thought/trash-assaults may never be over. there simply are no predicted timelines. such things, with this trash crap to deal with, do not exist.

"...something isnt fully working..." still sounds like a poke...and it is becoming a sad thing to read from an american.

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Train hard...race well.
www.jimmishler.com
"Jim, I happen to agree with you" DougStern

Glad to hear you are okay.

Also good to hear that you and other Londoners are getting on with your lives. That is the best way to show the bastards that they can't win.

"admirable adversaries"

Be careful of assigning too much to my review of their action. I do NOT admire them in any way. But I don't have the luxury of discounting the fact that they are able to pull this off TODAY.

That which you call "cowardice" we call tactics in the military. I don't like the tactics. I don't think they are right to use. I abhore the destruction of innocent civilian lives as much as you do. But that is how this adversary fights. Whether you choose to recognize them as such is neither here nor there...we ARE in conflict with them, and that makes them an adversary. Despite their despicable morals, they are still a thinking, plotting, calculating enemy.

If you choose to call them trash, and assume that these are "not normally a preventable act[s]"...then why spend such huge amounts of capital trying to get rid of them? I say it is because we CAN'T ignore them...or assign them to the trash heap.

""...something isnt fully working..." still sounds like a poke...and it is becoming a sad thing to read from an american."

Still not a poke, Jim. I promise. Really, I do. I guarantee you, though, that some high-positioned AMERICANS are asking just that question today..."What isn't working? How are they pulling this off?" In fact, I wouldn't expect anything less.

 

Still not a poke, Jim. I promise. Really, I do. I guarantee you, though, that some high-positioned AMERICANS are asking just that question today..."What isn't working? How are they pulling this off?" In fact, I wouldn't expect anything less.[/reply]


Like someone else said, fighting an enemy who is willing to give up their life to further their cause is a never ending battle I am afraid. As we have seen there is no end to how many new recruits want to martyr themselves and blow stuff up. Perhaps it is time to look at it from another angle?
Perhaps an analogy of fighting the war on drugs would be good here. Simply arresting the makers will never win you the war against drugs, you have to address the people who are using the drugs. Once you start to do that and those people start to dwindle in numbers, then the other will go away. (or go somewhere else)

I will make a bold statement and say that what happened today was not preventable and it would not be preventable on the NY Subway, the Chicago EL or any other public transport system anywhere in the world.

There is no practical way of preventing what happened today.

The only way of preventing it would be airport style security system which is simply impractical when journey time from Charing Cross to Tottenham Court Road is roughly 4 minutes. WTF will want to get screened, just will not work and is not practical.

Already people are saying there was a failure in intelligence. Maybe, but I dont think so. Even if you knew it was coming there are 400+ stations on the tube, the Northern Line is 25-30 miles North to South I believe with 4 seperate tunnels north and south bound plus loops for turning trains and sidings underground. How do you check and know everything is secure.

The reality is, I think, irrespective of whether londoners agreed or disagreed with the war, life goes on and I think a great number were resuming life this afternoon and at some point in the future I am sure this will happen again, here or elsewhere, in some form but you cant stop living.

[reply]I agree... at least one car bomb explodes in Bagdad EVERYDAY... I forgot, the people that die EVERYDAY don't speak english...[/reply]

Unfortunately you expect car bombs to go off in Iraq, its really sad, I dont like it, but it happens daily. You dont expect car bombs to go off in London. I'll be there in a couple months, so im sure my wife is worried. In Chicago we have death by violence on a daily basis, via street gangs, I dont see the international community sympathizes with us. I dont see critizing someones expression of sympathy being constructive.

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Just curious,

Without looking up posts in the Lavender Room, why do you think the US invaded Iraq?

a) Racism - to kill a bunch of Arabs
b) To plunder the country's oil supply
c) To enrichen Cheney & Haliburton
d) To Americanize the heathens
e) To establish a permanent American presence in the area
f) Because Israel said so
g) Because we're pretty much Saudi Arabia's lapdog (no disagreement here)
h) Because it was easier than dealing with the Saudis or the Pakistanis
i) For no good reason, other than American selfishness
j) Because Americans believed Iraq was responsible for 9/11
k) We're too afraid to stand up to N Korea
l) Watch Fahrenheit 9/11
m) All of the above
n) To spread peace, democracy, & freedom throughout the world (gag)
o) Because it was a peace-loving county with good schools, compassionate leaders, and posed to harm to anyone on Earth
p) All of the below
q) They appeared to have WMDs & SH planned to use them
r) They funded various terrorist groups
s) Because it was a "safe haven" for terrorists (i.e. Abu Abbas)
t) Because Bush et al believed that removing SH from power would make the US (and other countries) a safer place

Who said Al Qaeda is the only terrorist organization in the Middle East?

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king of the road says you move too slow
KING OF THE ROAD SAYS YOU MOVE TOO SLOW

I think what you mean is, "So it's OK to fight our war with someone on someone ELSE'S soil?" Godzilla & Gamarron fighting it out in downtown Tokyo. To believe that is true it to believe Iraq and SH posed no threat whatsoever to the US. And that is a crock of crap to draw out the flies.

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king of the road says you move too slow
KING OF THE ROAD SAYS YOU MOVE TOO SLOW

[reply]yeah Cathy I'm with Francois and SAC on this one... this country (US) is still incredibly racist although at a more subvert level... no longer overt. one way this is expressed is the ho-hum manner with which we take in the daily news from Baghdad. We are aghast that are troops are dying, 1,2,3 maybe more a day. But not a single news group even bothers to try and total the number of Iraqi deaths and how most attacks are Iraqi on Iraqi... why... because they know their audience doesnt care.... sick just plain sick[/reply]

What US are you talking about? This is the melting pot of the world!

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[reply]But not a single news group even bothers to try and total the number of Iraqi deaths and how most attacks are Iraqi on Iraqi... why... because they know their audience doesnt care.... sick just plain sick
[hr]This is fucking bullshit...do you actually watch the news? Both Fox and CNN generally give as much coverage to each attack on the Iraqis as it does to US troops. And if we didn't care about the Iraqis, then why are Americans still giving their lives over their???? We obviously care a very great deal. Go stuff yourself.

Spot[/reply]

Right On! Ditto.

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Macca Fan Club

It may not be "OK," but it is better than having to do it here. I think most people are taking a very short sighted veiw of this whole problem. All I hear about are "weapons of mass destruction" and "Al-Q" and "Muslim extremists." It doesn't seem to have occured to most people that these are just syptoms. The whole Middle East is just waiting to become a giant problem (yes, MUCH bigger than it is now). At some point we (or someone, and this is always seems to be the US because we're the only ones left with the resources to do so) need to start cleaning out the cancer and trying to save the whole patient. Can you imagine what would happen if all these little third world countries would put aside there differences, pitched in all their oil resources, and decided to take on the western world in one big winner-take-all throw down. This is essentially what prevented the American Indian from driving the white man into the sea-they couldn't get along. Whitey won. If we can keep the major players in the radical Muslim world from getting together, or eliminate(or convert) some of the radical countries that would join this alliance maybe, just maybe, we can avert some form of WWIII.

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Azby

I'm glad I don't live in your world Azby.

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

Yep - let's just friggin take out everyone who has different cultures and religious views, looks different, acts different, is poor etc. I'm pretty sure that's what God intended for us to do to each other.

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People I've loved, I have no regrets
Some I remember, some I forget
Some of them living, some of them dead
All I want is to be home ".....Foo Fighters, Home

While I agree with you that there has been no substantiated link between Iraq and Al Qaeda regarding the 9-11 attacks specifically, there is evidence of contacts between Iraqi intelligence and Al Qaeda. To assume that Saddam and Bin Laden would never had found common ground against the US is, IMO, a very dangerous assumption.

Spot

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Taco cat spelled backwards is....taco cat.

I said I was guilty of the same. I guess you shoot first and ask questions later.

[reply]
While I agree with you that there has been no substantiated link between Iraq and Al Qaeda regarding the 9-11 attacks specifically, there is evidence of contacts between Iraqi intelligence and Al Qaeda. To assume that Saddam and Bin Laden would never had found common ground against the US is, IMO, a very dangerous assumption.

Spot [/reply]

So you think that justifies our invasion???? Saddam may have at some point in the future settled his differences with Bin Laden and joined forces against the US???

Thats pretty fuckin thin.

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

no harm no foul Monk. nothing kills a party faster than talking about politics or religion.

peace. have a good night!

kc

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I'll be what I am
A solitary man

Actually what we are doing in Iraq is training terrorists how to be more effective against American forces. We are making terrorists faster than we are killing them. Also known as blowback. This is what Reagan did for Al Qaeda in it's formative years before they pulled off 9/11.



http://www.christiansciencemonitor.com/2005/0623/dailyUpdate.html

Dont look at that picture above KC



Here's a better one for you

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very interesting. in the recent past, it seemed that you were quick to call others 'american-hating', and today different folks call you 'american hating'!

things do indeed seem to go in circles, and it is always amazing to me (but perhaps it shouldn't be) how quick people are to throw labels on one another...

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Where would you want to swim ?

son of a bitch! here I am finally relaxed, and you try to fuck with me like this...

meet me behind the orange barrel in the alley at 9pm--Come alone. :)

or...this...

yeah, babe.

I have a big problem with one trying to 'put into perspective' killings happening everyday in Israel, Iraq, China, blah, blah.

Killing period.. is wrong. I wish we could get back to ribbing one another about weight, how one's profiled on a tri-bike, or some other banal topic instead.

Enjoy your day nonetheless.

- mike

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kestrel driver


DonorsChoose.org (!!!)
bogolight.com (!!!)

Give me a break. So we should invade another country not related to the terrorism attacks? That makes you feel better?

Also, there is no way the Republican controlled congress would have let Clinton do any major military congress back then.

Sorry! Peace Offering

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I'll be what I am
A solitary man

Pre-9-11, I would have agreed with you....but, we live in a different world today. Now we know that the one thing Al Qaeda desires above all else is WMD. According the book, "Ghost Wars" (a very good read about the CIA, Afghanistan, and the rise of Bin Laden), the contacts between Iraq and Al Qaeda included talks about chemical weapons. Believing that Saddam harbored WMD (a notion that Saddam actively cultivated, according to the Duelfer report, largely to deter Iran), knowing that there had been contact between Al Qaeda and Iraq, the President decided he could not wait. His decision was probably hurried due to intelligence generated after the Tora Bora battle in Afghanistan (source--"America's Secret War" by George Friedman, another good read).

Spot

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Taco cat spelled backwards is....taco cat.

uhmmm......

ok, but only because that drink looks purrrrrrfect.

Not to me. I drank about 35 of them last week on vacation. But who's counting.

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I'll be what I am
A solitary man

Spot,

thats all great....but the answer is really much simpler than that. We invaded Iraq to settle a Bush family vendetta. It had nothing to do with WMDs, nothing to do with terrorists, nothing to do with Al Qaeda or 9/11 and everything to do with settling an old score with Saddam....plus the Al Sauds probably wanted us to as well.

FACT #1

Iraq had no WMDs when we invaded.

FACT #2

Iraq had no links to Al Qaeda, in fact they were hostile to eachother.

FACT #3

Despite 2 years of trying to cook up ghost WMDs and ghost conspiracies the administration has not managed to find a single sliver of justification for an invasion on those grounds.

FACT #4

We are now fighting a war to "spread freedom and democracy"...it started off as a war of self defense and has now morphed into an idealogical crusade.



Wake up and smell the coffee.

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

"Pot calling the kettle black... " ???

Yeah and I wonder what kind of kettle you are?

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I'll be what I am
A solitary man

Why is that, Matt? Reality suck too much?

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Azby

I'm sure you are taking something out of context. :)

"We invaded Iraq to settle a Bush family vendetta. It had nothing to do with WMDs, nothing to do with terrorists, nothing to do with Al Qaeda or 9/11 and everything to do with settling an old score with Saddam" --

Some details, please? I try to use some sources to back up my opinions...

"Iraq had no links to Al Qaeda, in fact they were hostile to eachother."

As previously discussed, this is not a "fact"...there were indeed contacts between the two.

"Despite 2 years of trying to cook up ghost WMDs and ghost conspiracies the administration has not managed to find a single sliver of justification for an invasion on those grounds. "

It seems to me the administration has not been trying to cook up ghost WMDs for 2 years....I don't remember any claims recently by the administration that Iraq had WMD.

"We are now fighting a war to "spread freedom and democracy"...it started off as a war of self defense and has now morphed into an idealogical crusade."

If you read "The Pentagon's New Map", it will discuss why spreading freedom and democracy in this part of the world is a very important step in ending terror (and other ills). Is spreading freedom and democracy a bad thing?

"Wake up and smell the coffee."

Trot out some "facts" that are based on something other than your own conspiratorial thoughts, and I'll gladly do so.

Spot

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Taco cat spelled backwards is....taco cat.

That's it why didn't I think of that... it is a "Bush family vendetta". Because basicly the Bushs' like to kill people from their rich white perch up on top of the world just for sport. Give me a fucking break.

Clearly you know more about what was/is happening with terrorists than anyone in DC. Why don't you run for office. I'm sure that you could get elected in up in NorCal. (I assume that you are Matt in SF but I couldn't tell for sure because you don't list a name or location in your profile.)

Ron

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All that mistreatment of prisoners and infringing their rights ...what a load of crap. It's a war and if a little bit of coercion can help prevent a 911 or help or catch these crazies, the kind that just just did in London, what's the big hoo-har.

For those who advocate these prisoners' rights to gentle treatment I got one question - "If you had to choose, would you rather be a prisoner of American Troops in Guantano Bay or a Prisoner of fanatics in Iraq or the Abu Sayeef in the jungles of Phillipines."

Yeah the Abu Sayeff they raid the holiday beach resorts and kidnap tourists. Then after some good torture for a month or so behead them when they don't get what they want. Really nice. Two days ago there was also this beheading thing of some Thais by Muslim extremists in Southern Thailand.

By the sounds of it these Prisoners who were mistreated? I think we got the similar treatment when I was in boarding school.

Well if we're talking about Iraq consider this - Most of these killings of Iraqis that goes on everyday, is it the American troops or the fucked up crazy insurgence fanatics killing their own Muslims? The mentallity of these crazies is incredulous. Based purely on their actions, crazies are not to be understood just irradicated for the good of all mankind.

What's so bad about Bushy? The sceptics of course are saying that he's there cuz he wants the oil. At the end of the day whilst there are business opportunities for US interests it's the Iraqis who will benefit from the development of oil under a more democratic governance such as UAE, Dubai or Kuwait. When those crazy fanatics sabotage the oil fields, do you think it affects the people in Iraq more or the people in USA? It's a win-win but I'm sure those business benefits are hardly worth all this hassle.

It's a mess and invading Iraq on iffy intelligence, but what was Bushe's real intentions. I'm sure Bush would be more than happy to pullout all the troops in Iraq if he didn't have to play Mr Nice Guy image to the world and if he didn't have to prevent those crazies from just stepping in and Bombing and assasinating a few more people and set up a threat to the rest of the world.

Bushy should take it one more step, just go in and wipe out Iran cuz that's where most of the insurgence crazies are coming from and they are confirmed developing nucleur technology. It will be a good testing ground for the latest military hardware and technology.

Say what you want, given the choice of living under a Bush administration and a Sadam administration I know which I would choose. All these complex politico issues and varying hues of opinions, it's really simple when you cut thro the chase and get down to basics.

The Israelis have got the right idea. No quarter asked or given. You do a sneak terrorist bomb attack on my civillians today, tomorrow I'll blow your town to smithereens. Don't play the women and children card when collateral damage is involved because you should have consider that before you went on your bombing spree deliberately against our civillians. That's why they can survive, one tiny Nation surrounded by hostile crazies. Imagine if Israel were to say, "Oooh we can't do that it's not politically correct, we may end up like a pot calling the kettle black (as someone here has pointed out)" Reckon Israel would no longer be on the map.

Send your Chill Pill to the families of the victims.

Actually, American forces are killing more terrorists/insurgents than the other way around. You might be right about us creating more terrorists than we are killing, but that's because we have not gotten serious enough yet. We should nuke the Syrian border. Of course, libs don't like nuclear weapons and they have yet to suggest a soy based alternative that can do the same amount of damage.

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**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**

"We invaded Iraq to settle a Bush family vendetta."

Mattin you've got a good imagination. Now try to imagine 911 never happened, and London now is not happening and all those likewise happenings Madrid, Bali ,daily beheadings are all only pure conjecture.

And SWoo says to give him a break. Well he can go ahead and take all the breaks he wants cuz obviously them crazy fanatics aren't taking any breaks.

USA and Bush and Presidents who have gone before in recent history may not always be on track but I for one sure like their agenda a lot better than the agendas of those crazy fanatics.

Vermins spreading death and harm to everyone else and their supporters, should be squashed ..period!

There is a solution. Send the children or grandchildren (or nephews and nieces) of all the supporters of the war in Iraq to Iraq. If you think that war is that important, let your children fight that war. Or if you're under 35, volunteer and log off the computer. Otherwise I can't take your dedication to Gulf War 2 very seriously.

Wait, I see the response of the Republicans running this country is to ask for deferments. Never mind.

http://forums.military.com/eve/ubb.x/a/tpc/f/672198221/m/1790029500001/r/1430079500001

http://www.thesquadbay.com/content.php?article.1022

As stated by MATTinSF in a previous post

"thats all great....but the answer is really much simpler than that. We invaded Iraq to settle a Bush family vendetta. It had nothing to do with WMDs, nothing to do with terrorists, nothing to do with Al Qaeda or 9/11 and everything to do with settling an old score with Saddam....plus the Al Sauds probably wanted us to as well.

FACT #1

Iraq had no WMDs when we invaded.

FACT #2

Iraq had no links to Al Qaeda, in fact they were hostile to eachother.

FACT #3

Despite 2 years of trying to cook up ghost WMDs and ghost conspiracies the administration has not managed to find a single sliver of justification for an invasion on those grounds.

FACT #4

We are now fighting a war to "spread freedom and democracy"...it started off as a war of self defense and has now morphed into an idealogical crusade. "


MattinSF;

I have sat here and read through all 7 pages of of this thread. I don't even know where to begin. I have spent the last 20 years of my life participating in the defense of this country, flying jets off of aircraft carriers and working on Joint Staffs. I was on the first Aircraft Carrier into the GULF before the first Gulf War and we were flying missions over the heads of Iraqis poised on the Saudi border...we stopped them in thier tracks...we made them blink. How we did it few will ever know. I was on an aircraft carrier flying support missions off the coast of Somalia as they were dragging our service men that were shot down through the streets as we were attempting to protect food shipments that were being hijacked by Somali warlords, President Clinton tied our hands in ways the public will never know about. Most recently I was at a base in Saudi Arabia before the last war started working on the Air War Plan. I have one thing to tell you and your obviously limited exposure to the real truth. YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT ANYTHING IN REGARDS TO OUR KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT WAS IN IRAQ prior to the invasion. WE DON"T OWE YOU A PUBLIC EXPLANATION OF WHAT WE KNOW. If you want to know that info, grow some balls, join the military, attempt to qualify for a TS clearance and work your ass off for years before you ever get to the place were you are cleared to know the info.

I am currently the officer in charge of the US NAVY's west coast command center. Keep reading your liberal media and draw your own conclusions but don't ever attempt to state anything as fact that you know nothing about.

Mark

That top secret intel that told us they knew where the WMD was at every moment so that right after we took over we could not find any active programs?

The top secret intel that told us we would be welcomed with open arms and not car bombs and an insurrection?

The top secret intel that tells us exactly where OBL is so Bush can't get him five years later?

You drank so much of the koolaid you still believe it.


A democracy runs on the public making an informed decision, not trusting some bureaucrat somewhere. If you wish to run the country that way, chop up the constitution while you're at it.

Don't forget that a typical thing for liberals to say is instead of going to Iraq, we should be spending our reosurces hunting bin laden and al queda. But when we try to extract information from detainess to help prevent attacks like the ones that occured today, they are more concerned about the rights of the detainees than preventing carnage against innocent civilians.

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**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**

You evaded my question. If this Iraq war is so critical why are you not there? If you already served, sign up again, the pay gets better and better, no point in making the boys go without your enthusiastic support. If you can't go why not your children or grandchildren or nephews or nieces?

Next thing you'll be saying is you want to send your children to Osama Summer Camp!

No, but you should send your children to the nearest US Army or Marine Corp recruitment office unless you're a big chickenhawk who only believes in war for other peoples children.

I have a 16 year old son who wants to join the Marines to be a sniper. He has my blessing. He's worried that the action will be over before he gets his turn to "mess some people up" as he likes to say. I was reading something in Soldier of Fortune the other day about a Marine sniper that whacked a dude at 1500 meters with a .50. His spotter said the bad guy had just laced up a suicide belt. He said that when the bullet slammed into him, the guy turned into "pink mist" and said it was the coolest things he ever saw in his life. That was one of the coolest things I have ever read in my life. Anyway I'm 41, but when my son leaves home to join the Marines, I'm going to look into a short term assignment in the Marines so my son and I can mess some people up together. This Ironman shit has kept me in good shape. I'm totally ready to kick some ass. If not as a jarhead, I'll try to get a mercenary gig.

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**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**

Good, I am glad you are 100 percent behind your words.

They have slackened the requirements so over 35 males can volunteer and you can still get a job there as a contractor with hazard pay.

Your son could also sign up at 17 with parental consent so I am pretty sure Iraq will still be going on for him to get in there with the action still hot.

The chill pill was for matt.

To the families of the victims I send my deepest condolances and regrets that there are still rat punk assed sub-human muslim terrorists out there that have not been wiped of the face of the earth.

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I'll be what I am
A solitary man

And you should have lived under Sadam's Regime or go to Communist China and see how far anti Government type rhetoric you so freely spew now and take for granted will get you.

Good post Mark.

I have the sound of Super Hornets from Lemoore flying over me daily. Makes me sleep better at night.

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I'll be what I am
A solitary man

Been there and done that already, jackass.

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Taco cat spelled backwards is....taco cat.

That's a rhetorical point that has no meaning.
In reality space you can actually join the US military or get your children to join. Otherwise you are just a bunch of racist hot air.

I was 17 when I first joined the Marines. You can sign up and go when you are 17, but you won't get an assignment to a grunt unit until you turn 18.

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**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**

Thanks for the clarification.

"Otherwise you are just a bunch of racist hot air."

It's fine if you want to resort to name calling, but a little substantiating will go a long way.

For instance ... You're a Dickhead cuz innocent people have been killed, people whose ideologies do not encompass harm to others in the world. And all you can do is to use it as an excuse to spew crap about a system that affords you and yours a lifestyle of plenty and a democracy where you can get away with crapping in public if you want to.

Yes talking about shipping people out, they should ship ingrates like you to Osama Summer Camp or back to Mainland China to continue your crusade. You may be singing a different tune after some good experiences.

of course.... that must be it....

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Where would you want to swim ?

absolutely lt and it's not about winning some silly argument on the net forum but a much more crucial issue that affects us all.

and Mr Woo,

You say, "That's a rhetorical point that has no meaning.
In reality space you can actually join the US military or get your children to join."

Yes of course you are full of unsubstantiated rhetoric. You've more than proven that.

I wouldn't get my children to join anything. But if any of them CHOSE (something you take for granted living blissfully in a system you so vehemently criticise) to join any part of the US armed forces, I woukd be very proud.

Your point being?

Thanks Tim, We refer to that as the sound of Freedom.

Mark

Well you proved what you are here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=451621;search_string=chinaman;#451621

Our Iraq "strategy" isn't working and if you bothered looking at the data the one thing you would see is that terrorism has increased every year the war on terrorism has been going on.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/07/05/terror.site/index.html?section=cnn_latest
The Bushies have been claiming better to fight them in Iraq rather than London or New York, well guess what, they are going to have to drop that argument. This Bush refrain paints our soldiers as just bait.

How does that prove anything? I could say the same thing about your postings right?

More rhetoric?

Well if your data and argument are as compelling as they are here, you could just tell your children what's going on in the world and they would see the light immediately. If you believe in this war enough for other people's children to die for, why is it not good enough for your children?

Swoo, your chickenhawk argument is the least effective bullet in the standard anti-war rhetoric arsenal. As a society, we've chosen to delegate certain tasks to others who are more willing and more able to carry them out. Whether its as a fireman, police officer, garbage man, or a soldier. The obvious thing you're overlooking here is that every soldier in our armed forces has freely chosen to serve. You talk about them as children, but these brave men and women aren't children at all.

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"I learned from the example of my father that the manner in which one endures what must be endured is more important than the thing that must be endured"

http://myfirstironman.blogspot.com

Mark,

PM me please.

- kd

USAF

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kestrel driver


DonorsChoose.org (!!!)
bogolight.com (!!!)

Nice post. I cried today while I watched the news - I've been to London - I have English friends. I don't think there is anything wrong with feeling more strongly about the suffering or endangerment of 'familiar' people. It's part of our genetic makeup - we are a tribal species.

If I have to edit this freakin' post one more time I'm gonna poke my eye out.

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A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is just putting on its shoes.
- Mark Twain

WTF are you going on about now? Are you simply running out of rhetoric?

I already told you, if my chidren chose to join the US armed forces I would be very proud. Even more so if they joined some special unit specialized in irradicating crazy fanatics. BTW like Spot here, I did my stint in the military in the Special Forces. Have you ever been in the military or do you just like to enjoy standing on your pretend soap box preaching about it? Now I know it's tempting but be truthful now ...it's good for your own self-esteem.

Now stop telling me what to do with my children cuz you are nobody to do so, and concentrate on telling your own, assuming you were able to father any yourself.

Back to the important jist of this thread. Whilst all condolences and well wishes for those who have sustained serious injury and for the families of those killed are forwarded, however heart felt, will never repair the damage and losses. The only positive thing is that if the rest of the world takes this as a cue to finally ignore idiotic sentiments and solidify to do what it takes to irradicate fanatical crazies so we may have a safer future.

Why don't you shut-TF-up!. Have some respect for the people that died today(you know innocent civilians on their way to work) in London. Save your 60's fortunate son crap for another thread.

This thread got hijacked long ago by people who insisted on making their political points.

I don't see you jumping on top of any of the rest of them.

Two wrongs don't make a right. For what it is worth I served and was ready to give my life and I would be proud if my children died in the line of duty.

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customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

Just read about this. What I find frustrating is that it shows that the security system (communication) simply is not adequate. I would have thought that after 9-11, major cities would have put in place a better communication system so that all people would be taken off every form of public transit quickly. 4 in succession over the course of an hour is plenty of time to have avoided the deaths in at least the last two explosions. That may appear as too high expectations - but that it my opinion.

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Adrian in Vancouver

And I totally respect your decision and current beliefs. It's the guys who talk the talk and don't walk the walk that rankle me, especially the ones in power now.

bring 'em on.

send 'em to your local recruiter asap.

our pres. will be grateful, but somehow i dont think his offspring will be joining yours.

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Where would you want to swim ?

It's not surprising that this thread has escalated. It's a topic that raises emotions and quite rightly so.

CG you say, "Second, the last time I checked no one from England or Spain jumped on a bus with NOTHING but civilians with the sole intent to kill and mame. The next time a little girl gets kidnapped and raped I guess my reaction should be, well it happens all the time what is the big deal?

Sometimes you need to focus on home more than the globe.

Regardless, to all of you who live across the pond, I for one extend my wishes and prayers to you."

110% concur with you. We need to focus on our home because it's our home and our family and our people. It is also even with all it's faults and blemishes a shining example to the rest of humanity what their rights as human are and the kind of lifestyle they can have.

However certain atrocities whether it be this London bombings, 911, Bali bombings, child slavery and rape from the vulnerability of the Tsunami victim refugee camps or the constant rape, torture and disfiguring of women and little girls in the Congo are just are not acceptable ...period! The free world should do whatever necessary to stop, punish and irradicate people who perpetuate these things. In my book, by doing or supporting such atrocities such people have given up their rights to be treated as fellow human beings.

not me, man, i always trust that great beacon of truth and hope, Fox news, for all of my correct, accurate, and completely objective info.

thanks a bunch for posting this critical tip to all the other goofballs that even think of getting their info from anywhere else.

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Where would you want to swim ?

A lot of peoples offspring won't be joining them, rich or poor. It just a shitty point to say "What about you kids?"

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customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

"However certain atrocities whether it be this London bombings, 911, Bali bombings, child slavery and rape from the vulnerability of the Tsunami victim refugee camps or the constant rape, torture and disfiguring of women and little girls in the Congo are just are not acceptable ...period! The free world should do whatever necessary to stop, punish and irradicate people who perpetuate these things. In my book, by doing or supporting such atrocities such people have given up their rights to be treated as fellow human beings.

Are you trying to tell us that there are worse human rights violations occurring in places other than Guantanamo Bay?!?! Is Amnesty International aware of these atrocities? Is the DNC aware?

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**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**

"It's the guys who talk the talk and don't walk the walk that rankle me, especially the ones in power now."

Why get rankled so easily? Walk the walk? OK what walking have you done before?

"Why don't you shut-TF-up!. Have some respect for the people that died today(you know innocent civilians on their way to work) in London. Save your 60's fortunate son crap for another thread."

EXACTLY!

For someone whose got nothing positive to contribute that Woo guy sure's got a lot to say.

Guantanamo Bay? I recall getting similar treatment when I was a junior in boarding school.

Oops. Forgot to add the "Bush family vendetta" to my list. My bad.

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king of the road says you move too slow
KING OF THE ROAD SAYS YOU MOVE TOO SLOW

Just listening to Air America(Jerry Springer) and some goober comes on and says that Bush and Guiliani planted the bombs in London. He thinks they did it because Bushs approval is falling and this would take the attention off of the quagmire in iraq. He never explained the Guiliani connection.

Just goes to show that we have dispicable crazy people in America. They are not all muslim extremists.

What's that got to do with anything? It just surprises me that you would use the rhetoric of a fundamentalist to attack and denigrate fundamentalists.

Actually I don't see your posts in any thread where someone is asking for help of any kind. Only where there's an opportunity to spew more narrow minded racist pablum.

Hey Ron I'll make a deal with you. I'll run for office right after you enlist and go fight in this war.

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

So if all that is nonsense Mark and I'm just the victin of a "liberal media" where are the weapons of mass destruction that we attacked Iraq to destroy???? Where are the Al Qaeda links???? Why have the reasons for the war changed almost daily???? If we are there to spread freedom, why were we not told this before the invasion instead of two years after the fact?

And as for the part about owing the American people an explanation for attacking a country that has not attacked us...I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree on that one. You really believe the US military can attack Canada for example and tell us to mind our own business?

This is a democracy not (yet) a military dictatorship.

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

Hey right now its a more plausible explanation than the imaginary weapons of mass destruction theory.

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

In Reply To:

I have a 16 year old son who wants to join the Marines to be a sniper. He has my blessing. He's worried that the action will be over before he gets his turn to "mess some people up" as he likes to say. I was reading something in Soldier of Fortune the other day about a Marine sniper that whacked a dude at 1500 meters with a .50. His spotter said the bad guy had just laced up a suicide belt. He said that when the bullet slammed into him, the guy turned into "pink mist" and said it was the coolest things he ever saw in his life. That was one of the coolest things I have ever read in my life. Anyway I'm 41, but when my son leaves home to join the Marines, I'm going to look into a short term assignment in the Marines so my son and I can mess some people up together. This Ironman shit has kept me in good shape. I'm totally ready to kick some ass. If not as a jarhead, I'll try to get a mercenary gig.

You're a credit to your country and I'm sure your son will be another great ambassador for the United States as he travels the world messing people up.

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

i hope not, but just in case it will be your son that will be 'pink-misted' in a really "cool" way instead those darned pesky "bad guys", drop me a line, i'll send a few bucks your way to help defray the costs of the closed-casket funeral.

maybe our super intelligent pres. will show up at the service to pay his respects.

god, i am so amazed at our pres.'s wits and brains every day! i am so glad he has lead our country to such awesome military glory and "pink-misting"! long live pink misting! how totally cool!! i gotta go subscribe to the 'soldier of fortune' mag.! how totally cool!!

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Where would you want to swim ?

"What's that got to do with anything? It just surprises me that you would use the rhetoric of a fundamentalist to attack and denigrate fundamentalists." -

Duncan call me stupid if you want to go ahead, but I'll ask you back the same type of question you're asking me here. Accusing me of rhetoric and fundamentalist to attack fundamentalist whatever that means ..what's that got to do with them fanatical crazies bombing up them poor folks in London? Can't wait to hear your explaination.

"Actually I don't see your posts in any thread where someone is asking for help of any kind. Only where there's an opportunity to spew more narrow minded racist pablum." -

As for you Mr Woo your comments are getting more irrellevant and pathetic by the minute. And that's not meant to be a stupid tit for tat argument winning thing on the net forum but just a statement of honest fact. Who was it here who said something like ..."If you're dumb ass keep it to yourself, there's no need to open your mouth and confirm it." ... and you further show your ignorance by asking Trevor S why he's picked you out to tell you to shut-TF-up!. The answer's so obvious, none so blind as those who will not see. Through all your posts did you even once address the atrocities of the London Bombings? Instead you used it as an excuse to complain and criticize the democratic world that graciously houses you. Yeah why don't you shut-TF-up since you're really grasping for things to say anyway.

I detect a little bit of sarcasm in your post. I think if you had the satisfaction of dropping a dude at 1500 meters, you would be pretty stoked. But that was only part of the story. So the guys buddy goes back to look at his friends vaporized remains and he gets whacked!! (but no "pink misting" as he was not wearing a sucide belt) Anyway, that's two confirmed kills at 1500 meters!! Almost a mile!! There are guys over there that have got 25 confirmed kills in a single day!! (maybe not at 1500 meters, but 25 confirmed kills is still pretty cool)

The sad part is that sometimes our boys run out of match grade ammunition and they have to shoot regular 7.62mm that they delink from M-60 belts. Instead of sending me money later, why don't you use that money now to send our boys some match grade 7.62 rounds. I'm sure they would appreciate it.

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**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**

Iraq had ties to terrorism. Not 9/11. Not al-qaeda. Iraq is just one battle on the war against terrorism.

Brian,

there are mre dangerous Islamist militants living in London than have ever lived in Baghdad. the live there because the UK has had a long tradition of accepting political refugees, and those in danger of the death penalty in their own country. The US is still trying to extradite 2 Egyptians from London 7 years after they claimed responsibility for the bombings of our embassies in East Africa.

The man who was leader of Islamic Jihad when they murdered Egyptian leader Anwar Sadat lives openly in London and the Egyptian government has repeatedly tried to extradite him without success....Yasser al-Sirri...go google him, you're good at that. Egypt has a list of 20 terrorists they have been trying to extradite from britain for years.

Does this mean that the UK has ties to terrorism??? Are we invading them next???

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

Invade the UK? What are you, nuts? They're our closest ally. How can you suggest such a move?

However, Hussein was public enemy #1 who was compared to the likes of Stalin and Hitler. Responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands..even millions of people.

The reason there are so many islamist militants in England and throughout Europe is because there are so many muslims are moving to Europe. No country in western europe has a birthrate higher than its deathrate. There is one group in western europe increasing in size and profile: Muslims

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**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**

The reason alot of refugees go to the UK, is they do not need a pasport to live there. They do need it in Germany, France, Belgium, blabla.

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Fuck a duck and try to fly

Ever realised that the people you are fighting in Iraq right now, were also Saddam Hussein's ennemies ?

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Fuck a duck and try to fly

Whatever the technicalities are, in western europe there is a de-evolution from a judeo-christian civilization to one that is becoming subservient to the ideology of 'jihad' and the islamic immigrants that propagate it.

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**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**

Please take "zen" out of your screen name.

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Life isn't measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the number of moments that take your breath away.

"This is a democracy not (yet) a military dictatorship."

Mattin you have absolutely no idea what living in a dictatorship is like, otherwise you wouldn't be shooting your mouth off so freely in a democracy.

You're losing me Brian.....you told me that we invaded Iraq primarily because there were terrorists there. Is that not so?

If our reason for invading another country is the presence of terrorists then we should be invading England...but then that never was the real reason, was it Brian?

I see you've reverted back to the hoary old Saddam is Hitler blah blah blah we have to save the Iraqi people blah blah blah nonsense.

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

And you don't know a thing about me or where I have lived so I suggest you take some of your own advice.

And is your idea of democracy a nation full of docile compliant people who say nothing when their government takes the country to war for no apparent reason? diverts our military away from fighting those who are a threat to us to fighting people who never were?

Thats not a democracy.

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

"Please take "zen" out of your screen name."

I used to go by "Armored Avenger" for awhile. Recently I thought of changing it to "Johnny Loco"

If I changed it, I would change it completely.

Why do you think I should I take "zen" out?

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**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**

Because bragging about how cool it is to see someone blown into a "pink mist" or how cool it is to "drop someone from 1500 feet" has nothing to do with being zen.

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Life isn't measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the number of moments that take your breath away.

You're losingDo me Brian.....you told me that we invaded Iraq primarily because there were terrorists there. Is that not so?

Hussein was a terrorist. Yes. He openly said he wanted our Presidents killed and condoned terrorism.

If our reason for invading another country is the presence of terrorists then we should be invading England...

England doesn't have a leader who promotes terrorism. Iraq did.

Matt are you doing a parody of a liberal? You can't actually believe your rhetoric.

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I'll be what I am
A solitary man