Yep.

I agree, as a guy who has often placed dead last in races from tris to runs to a 5k ows. I was once in a small local 5k where I saw a young woman cut the course by a couple hundred yards just so she could catch up with her friends who were faster, then.they strolled in together. I was at the back, behind all this, and I promised myself tha matter. Hiw fat and sow I was, the course cutter was not going to place higher that. Day. It took me a long time to finally catch up, which sucked as they were walking and. i was "running." But eventually I did, and I PR'ed that day. I couldn't show up on race day if I was embarrassed by being BOP every time, and I'm obsessed with how much faster everyone else is. but if you cut the course, even in a 5k, you have my full attention, and not in a good way.

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I'll tell you all right now, my seat is too low, I'm not aero and I carry too much fluid on the bike.

I still find it interesting to relate to a sport like golf. Each is very individualistic and atleast at the highest levels usually have a official following them (officials obviously come and go during tri's).

A golfer just recently who was playing at the qualifying school/tournament for the PGA tour. The player thought he hit a leaf on his swing and caused it to move, and his own caddie swore it didnt. So he decided to assess himself a 1 stroke penalty. At the end of the day, he made the cut....all is well right!

Well he was telling the story to his friend a week later, and his friend said dude that's a 2 stroke penalty. The golfer called the PGA and disqualified himself for signing an incorrect score card. That's a sport that atleast *seems* to have alot of high integrity even at the highest of levels. And I'm not saying we dont have that in tri's or other sports, just an interesting dynamic.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Totally agree. Once you decide to hold a race, the integrity of the results are paramount. When cheaters destroy the integrity of the results, it's not just like riding on your own... it creates all sorts of negative emotion amongst both the competitors and observers. Just look at cycling.

The argument that catching FOP cheaters is really important but we should not waste our time with MOP or BOP cheaters does not make sense. Where do you draw the FOP line? It also belittles the goals and accomplishments of the majority of racers, and if you care about the pros, there would be no sponsors or money without the MOP and BOP athletes as they are the money (and the spirit) in this sport. If they get disenchanted, this sport will die.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

The argument that catching FOP cheaters is really important but we should not waste our time with MOP or BOP cheaters does not make sense. Where do you draw the FOP line? It also belittles the goals and accomplishments of the majority of racers, and if you care about the pros, there would be no sponsors or money without the MOP and BOP athletes as they are the money (and the spirit) in this sport. If they get disenchanted, this sport will die.

__________

I think it's important only because of the limited resources we have in this sport. Obviously we want every race and every racer to be officiated the same equally, but that's just not a real world applicable. So in that sense, when you are dealing with money/prizes, they are the priority. Now sure it may belittle the others or feel left out, but I think that's just a function of having limited officials in triathlon. To think an entire race is going to be officiated proportional and fairly across the board, just isnt realistic.

And I'm not saying that's the way it should be, I'm saying that's the reality of the situation.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

When allocating scarce resources, I totally agree with you. But yesterday when information of a slower cheater did come up, some were arguing that it was a waste of time to worry about it and that because this cheater was not taking money or a Kona spot it does not matter, which I disagree with. That athlete should be DQ'd just like a Kona qualifier should be.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

Well said, I agree 100%. Its hard for me to understand how people actually defended the cheating in the latest post. This whole feel good attitude shared by some about cheating doesn't matter if your mop/bop in my opinion is chicken shit. Why are you scared to call someone out who has clearly broken the rules? It might not impact me directly but I think it impacts our sport. We shouldn't tolerate it at any level. There is no achievement if what you "achieved" was done so cheating. A big thank you to the guys are sportstats for stepping up and helping eliminate cheating.

'Moreover and more broadly, you are ruining the integrity and structure of the sport. '

True, but I'm more concerned by the 'course cutters' in a broader society. With a 'moral compass' so obvioulsy disabled or non existent how is this reflected in what they are doing at work, in the community, in relationships etc??. Would love to see some research into this but pretty tough for the rersearchers to recruit volunteers I would think :)

.

As for public shaming...it's sad to see, but if it works, then so be it. I still have to imagine that "private shaming" (e.g., the mirror in front of me when brushing my teeth) would be enough, but I guess the fact that it isn't reflects a sad state of honor in this world.

I thought this was a great line and worth re-posting.

Unfortunately, in addition to deliberate cheats, I'm afraid there are many who are oblivious. I'm constantly amazed how someone can show up for a ride or race when it's 30 degrees out and they don't have gloves or arm warmers. "Oh, I didn't know it was going to be this cold." Uh, you ride a bike and you don't think to look at the weather either on-line or on TV? I see that kind of obliviosity all the time. And as I race in the older age groups, I worry about coming up against some clown who just asked his doctor about all the ads he's seeing for Low T and got his free trial of Androgel. He's all proud of how he's flying on the bike now, but he wonders why his 4-year old grandkid who he bounces on his knee is already growing a beard.

All these "low T" products being advertised are made to sound like legitimate treatments for legitimate "problems." I put "problems" in quotes because aging is not a problem. It's a natural process. Taking testosterone to reverse the effects of aging is NOT natural and, if you take it and compete (or train), YOU'RE A DAMNED CHEAT!!! -- whether it's deliberate or the result of your obliviosity.

(I know "obliviosity" is probably not a word.)

I addition to being solidly BOP like I mentioned, I am also now a coach for the Girls in the Run program. The focus is mostly values, self-esteem, anti-bullying, and it is non-competitive. But with the season's 5k coming up, I am firm with my girls about cutting the course. A couple of them want to try to cut corners for laps at practice to get more in, and I have trying to impress upon them that it doesn't count. In one lesson we gave out a bed for every lap. The cutters didn't get beads for cut laps. A small small thing, but hopefully setting a standard when they are 9 and 10 will have effects when they are older.

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I'll tell you all right now, my seat is too low, I'm not aero and I carry too much fluid on the bike.

""Play the ball as it lies, play the course as you find it, and if you cannot do either, do what is fair. But to do what is fair, you need to know the Rules of Golf.""

Such a classy sport.

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__________________________

I tweet!

A few years ago I was leading a small neighborhood triathlon and was led off course by the Po-lice, then proceeded to continue to make several additional wrong turns. In all, I rode an extra 2-3 miles on what was supposed to be something like a 6 mile bike course. Even though I covered almost 150% of the course distance, I didn't do it on the proper course. I went to the RD and disqualified myself. The rules are the rules.

I don't know how cheaters live with themselves.

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__________________________

I tweet!

"And as I race in the older age groups, I worry about coming up against some clown who just asked his doctor about all the ads he's seeing for Low T and got his free trial of Androgel. He's all proud of how he's flying on the bike now, but he wonders why his 4-year old grandkid who he bounces on his knee is already growing a beard.

All these "low T" products being advertised are made to sound like legitimate treatments for legitimate "problems." I put "problems" in quotes because aging is not a problem. It's a natural process. Taking testosterone to reverse the effects of aging is NOT natural and, if you take it and compete (or train), YOU'RE A DAMNED CHEAT!!! -- whether it's deliberate or the result of your obliviosity."

Agree with all of that, as a 55 YO riding with mostly 35-45 YO cyclists. I bust my ass hard to keep up with the younger guys and I do it strictly on nothing but training, although I get dropped regularly. Yet, I know there are some guys my age that are clearly doing 'something'. One season they are doing B/C no-drop rides and the next season they are climbing hills with the studs on the A ride. The rides I do are nothing but LBS rides, so there is nothing on the line per se, aside from pride. But, some of these guys race in local races. I have not had much interest in racing for that very reason. I know I would have to race against guys that are probably getting treated for 'Low T'.

Greg

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If you are a Canuck that engages in gratuitous bashing of the US, you are probably on my Iggy List. So, save your self a bunch of typing a response unless you also feel the need to gratuitously bash me. If so, have fun.
"Don't underestimate Joe's ability to f___ things up" - Barack Obama, 2020

obliviousness

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Jed

"If you want to ride by the Force, you had better make sure that you are a real Jedi." - FastYellow (6/13/2011)

While it was hard to digest that entire thread, I think most are referring to Power 13's comments. He, as he stated, was not defending the cheating. He was questioning why so many delighted in an internet witch hunt on this girl and no one even so much as questioned the original poster's intent, he of the brand new username and single post. I completely agree with Power13. The girl got caught by SportsStats, was DQ'ed, and called out publicly. The continued piling on was unnecessary. To think that someone could start this anonymously was also worrisome. I hope none of you (or me) ever become the target of some anonymous poster with an axe to grind. In this case, perhaps the public outing was justified, but the next case may not be. There have been plenty of those here too.

It's not that MOP and BOP cheaters are unimportant. MOP and BOP athletes are the core of triathlon. It's just an economic argument - when there are limited resources, I think it makes more sense to ensure it's a clean race when there is money on the line.

Pride and achievement are obviously important, but if a doper takes my rent money, then I think that needs to take over as the priority. It's a case of one athlete stealing money from another athlete. And right now, there is scant testing at the pro level.

There may also be the argument it makes sense to target the FOP because most of the dopers will be FOP (doping tends to make people faster, of course).

It's not about belittling anyone, it's about allocation of resources to where cheating has the biggest impact and where it is more likely to be found.

My guess is that people who cheat don't feel shame the way you or I might; I get the feeling it's more of a game to them, and when they get exposed it's simply game over... oh well, on to the next game

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Coach at KonaCoach Multisport

OP - Absolutely

Now that I have kids, it also changes the optics of the situation. I couldn't imagine how I would feel if my kids found out that I cheated however small. I would rather dnf or finish last. Remembering that for everyone of those people there are thousands that don't. The Triathlon family is usually a very good place.

I will use this opportunity to reference my most recent race. As everyone prob. knows - the Rev3 events allows you to cross the line with your kids/family/whatever. I was only yards ahead of another person in my age group. He could have easily slipped by me at the finishers chute but I saw him ease off as i grabbed my kids to cross the line. Classy move. I didn't get a chance to give him a 'nod of recognition'

Rev3 Florida Bib 261. Cheers dude!



"what we do in life, echoes in eternity"

bluemonkeytri wrote:

The girl got caught by SportsStats, was DQ'ed, and called out publicly. The continued piling on was unnecessary.

As is usually the case...the cover up was what really got her. She could have just kept her mouth shut, not said anything, and it would probably have passed. By engaging the "hunt" she invited more scrutiny. Going back and looking at her posts over the past few months was quite telling. Just a few months ago she joked about only swimming one loop on two different occasions and in two different threads. It became quite obvious that her plan to cheat was hatched long ago...again the attempted cover up made the whole thing worse.

I say bring on the piling on. If you results are legit then you'll be able to stand by them 100% and provide all the facts to back them up. If you cheat, you know you can't do that and you also know that you risk being exposed and publicly humiliated. Seems like a good deterrent to me.

I understand that you rode additional miles, but did you cover the six-mile race course, too?

I Can't do a Rev3, ain't got no kids for the finish line. But hey, maybe some enterprising individual could rent race day kids to run down
the finish line chute with. Of course with me they'd need to be about 30 years old to be believable.

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Find out what it is in life that you don't do well, then don't
do that thing.

I applaud that your integrity to ride clean, but I don't share your skepticism. There are a lot of people with natural talent who go years with haphazard training, nutrition and discipline. I've personally had a wide variance in ability over the years, mostly based on time commitments with a young family, but I would hate for someone to characterize my rapid regain of fitness as aided by drugs. I've known other people who are very trainable but from season to season they could either be in the laughing group or setting the tone of the race/ride at the front. The only way I would cast suspicion would be if someone has been training seriously for 3 or more years with gradual improvement and then they have a huge breakthrough, but even so I'm prone to give the benefit of the doubt.

And this is exactly why can not watch pro soccer anymore! At least in tri/cycling/running people *attempt* to be sneaky about the cheating but try watching a pro soccer game it's bloody tragic! They have 14,000 cameras with slow motion replay and they still dive all over the place and it is CHEATING! It drives me nucking futs because the governing body does nothing about it. In fact it is accepted as being "part of the game". Thankfully no form of cheating in tri is accepted here! Keep up the good fight ST.

Exactly, she could have called off the wolves at any point, she didn't want that.

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Find out what it is in life that you don't do well, then don't
do that thing.

Meh...this thread isn't cutting it. After yesterday's captivating read, I have that same empty feeling today when I get to the end of a good book...and then it's over.

It was good, but she didn't have the bombastic panache of The Finman. She needs to make a video like Finman and come back.

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Find out what it is in life that you don't do well, then don't
do that thing.

unfortunately i dont think i was on ST at the time of finman, i did a quick search, is "IM florida finman" the thread i should be reading to catch up?

yesterday. was. epic.

i would have liked a confession though. that would have been a better ending for me.

And let's not be too quick to judge until all of the facts are in. I followed the saga of "T3" yesterday and as it rollercoastered from her being a hero to a villain several times throughout the day I was remembering an Olympic distance race I did years ago. The final results had me 4th in AG and the guy that was 3rd was someone I usually beet by 10 minutes. I was knocked off the podium and I knew something was wrong because I passed this guy on the bike and never saw him again. I was pissed off. He went home as soon as he finished the race. That night I got a phone call from the guy. He had called dozens of people from the phone book with my name trying to get hold of me. He was almost crying as he told me that he realized he only did 3 loops of a 4 loop bike course and only figured it out when he looked at the results. The next day he drove 2 hrs back to the race site to pick up the 3rd place prize and then delivered it to my home. Now we are good friends.

There were mulitple threads, threads and sons of threads. A lot of it got washed clean at some point.

I made a poster though. This is an actual pic of The Finman marching back into the swim for the 2nd loop.

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Find out what it is in life that you don't do well, then don't
do that thing.

For the second loop!?

Id slit my wrist if i had to swim a mile with fins..i don't even like the pull buoy....

I was an early cheerleader on the original thread. I even congratulated her after she posted her results. I was off work yesterday (visiting family in Florida) and watched the thread unfold in realtime. It was better than anything on TV last night.

While I'm disappointed in the OP for taking advantage of people's supportive ways, we shouldn't be surprised that this stuff happens. It is simple math that a certain percentage of people operate outside of the norm.

Also, I have no problem calling people out for everything from bad behavior to criminal acts. However, I don't expect them to change. They're just wired differently.

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What I do: http://app.strava.com/athletes/345699

At some point he said something along the lines of what he was carrying were not fins but
a dead fish. And he had done the race a great service by carrying the dead fish back to the
gulf. I can't make this stuff up.

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Find out what it is in life that you don't do well, then don't
do that thing.

Haha. I was glue to my phone while my wife was watching her recorded afternoon soaps. It was WAY better than any day time tv script.

Lol. Awesome! That's almost better than running a half marathon in 3 hours...

Cheaters are going to exist no matter what rules you place. The more rules and the harder you make it to break rules the smarter the cheaters will get. It is the sad truth and the rest of us will have to just deal with it. All of us break rules, even my 5yrs old son love to break rules. It is human nature. Now which rules you break and how you break them is a totally different story.

Tri is an individual sport and if it makes someone feel good to say I finished an Ironman when they only did part of it and stole a "real finisher" medal then hopefully the "private shaming" will get them one day.

All I can do is keep training and hope to be faster than all of these damn cheaters.

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SmartBikeTrainers.com || YouTube || My Twitter

what was the verdict on her swim? I assume she didn't really swim 2.4 miles in 1:08. Was this cheating or
was it a chip problem?

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Find out what it is in life that you don't do well, then don't
do that thing.

Yeah, I think yesterday's thread was locked down too soon.

We still don't have an objective analysis of the subject's Garmin data in comparison to her recorded splits. The Garmin data was supposedly shared with at least one of the posters on this forum as well as with somebody (Jimmy R.?) at WTC.

If the Garmin data shows any evidence of doctoring, the case is probably closed. But until then... ?

When the Sportstat guys came over and explained it after that it was pretty much game, set and match.

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Find out what it is in life that you don't do well, then don't
do that thing.

Not quite because sportstats said he would be willing to analyze the Garmin data.

I don't believe so. I would imagine that I rode a majority of it, but since I didn't ride the whole course in the exact order in which it was intended to be ridden I felt the need to disqualify myself.

I get where you're going with that though. If I simply took a couple wrong turns (rode additional miles), but then corrected my mistake and continued to ride the course as it was intended then that is ok provided I enter and leave the course at the same point. I've exercised my right to use the "exit and re-enter rule" several times, including once at Nationals when I forgot my run number, but that rule wouldn't cover what I did at this race. My points of exit and re-entry were MILES apart. I really got off-track!

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__________________________

I tweet!

but not from a screen shot, which was what she offered as proof. I have no idea if that can be faked.....

All I know is that it walked like a duck, talked like a duck, looked like a duck, so it must have been a duck.

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Find out what it is in life that you don't do well, then don't
do that thing.

I don't think T3Girl quite got near the elite status of Finman but there is still time, she didn't seem willing to concede and may be coming up with a dead fish defense of her own. Cheating is cheating at any level and I'm glad it's being pointed out. Makes you wonder how much of this stuff went on and was never caught before timing systems.

MC

I'm not sure anyone can touch The Finman. Do you remember his video with all his finisher's medals? That was proof I guess that he was a
super endurance athlete. I should look for that on You Tube.

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Find out what it is in life that you don't do well, then don't
do that thing.

i agree, i think if you cheat you need to be humiliated for it.

Two years ago in a series of little dinky sprint triathlons in the Dallas area I was always beaten by this one guy in
my age group (55-59). All of the run segments were out and back with no timing mat at the turn.

After being beaten twice I started looking for him comming back as I was running out. No sign of him, just him at the
finish line. I looked him up on athlinks and saw that he couldn't run faster than 25 minutes for a stand alone 5k but
in a triathlon he'd run sub 20s.

I think he would start the run but stop and stand along the side of the road but then re-enter the race at a certain point.
It's hard to believe someone, a grown man would do that but I'm pretty sure that's what he did. But I can't prove it.

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Find out what it is in life that you don't do well, then don't
do that thing.

Yeah, I think yesterday's thread was locked down too soon.

No, probably just about right...as Slowman said, everybody learned what they needed to learn....the Garmin data would have just reinforced it as that screen shot showed---all sorts of weird data, with really the only thing that would have matched anything remotely close to anything was the finish time of that profile...otherwise the mileage was off, the start time was off vis-a-vis the supposed run time, etc...

As someone else said, sure seemed like a duck all along.

Go back and re-read what he wrote about MOP and BOP cheating, including doping. I think you missed a lot.

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__________________________________________________
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Probably her ex-boyfriend!


...And yeah - read all of Power13's posts...I was pretty shocked, which is what inspired me to start this thread early AM. Agree with Slowman shutting down the initial thread, but much more to be discussed on the issue that some cheating can be dismissed lightly - which I completely disagree with.

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*********************************************
Brad Stulberg
Author, Peak Performance
http://www.BradStulberg.com

Anybody pulled up to a stop sign today? Sit and watch and count how many people actually stop at it and how many roll through it. Watch for the occasional one that pulls up with no intention of stopping. How about texting while driving? We live in an "anything goes," society and for a per centage of the population, the difference between right and wrong is what they are currently able to get away with. Why, then, are we so surprised at course cutters?

I used to train with this guy. He bragged to me about winning a triathlon. I never bothered to look at his results. I was impressed. At my very first race, he came along. I saw him on the bike, but never saw him on the run. It was a small sprint that had 200 entrants and the run course was an out and back on a sidewalk. It's impossible to miss someone. I cross the line and he's waiting for me. I was confused as hell. He says, "Come on, I won this thing. We better get out of here!" Then he tells me he cut the run. He also tells me he cut the run at the tri he won before. I was speechless. He got DQ'd from my little race, but the very next weekend we raced again. I said how happy I was that there were big glasses of water at the turnaround. He said that he still just took a little dixie cup. Well, I stopped at that turn around. They only had big glasses. He cut that run too. I never raced with him again, and very soon stopped training with him. The real kicker for me was, he didn't need to cut. He's fast as hell. Cheating is everywhere. It's in sport and in life. Hell, I bet this old training partner of mine would cut the course in a three-legged race at his kids birthday party. They just don't see any wrong in it.

As for the previous cheating thread from yesterday? Shame on her. She cuts the swim to start the race and continues on with that fiasco for another 13 hours? It was a mirror to that thread. She lied, then continued to lie throughout the thread. What gives?

Yes it bothers me to see cheating in any endeavor, but I tend to flash toward what I think it means globally about said person. Specifically, if someone is willing to cheat in a silly sport like triathlon where we pay to participate, how likely is that person to cheat at say.....their job when it will benefit them financially?

I have used and continue to use a simple $2 Nassau bet on the golf course as a test of one's character. A friendly game of golf is a common vehicle for getting to know folks and I use it routinely for a peek into people's character. Someone who will cheat in a $2 game is the same person who will do it on their taxes, in business and in their personal life. By the time you are an adult you are who you are and the more people I meet the more I'm convinced of that fact. I have called people out on it right on the course and have also let it slide and just dismissed them as dishonest. Talk is cheap, actions speak volumes.

I got lost on a course once, but the RD sent an ambulance to find me and they put me back on course. It was an ironman distance race and I rode an additional eight miles. That hurt!

It was one loop. They called her out on that too in the thread. The company said they put out a two signal setup. One signal on first loop. One on second. Then T1. She did one loop and the second signal was entering T1, which is why her swim is blank and T1 is jacked up and was combined with her swim. He said the system is designed for that exact reason.

So obviously she was DQ'd from IMFL. But based her blatant cheating and then going the extra mile to cover it up, will she be banned from future events?

I was curious about this same thing too. At what point do you get banned and for how long?

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"Though she be but little, she is fierce" ~Shakespeare | Powered by HD Coaching | 2014 Wattie Ink Triathlon Team | Facebook | Instagram | Twitter

Up to WTC, but I would assume so.

Brad is spot on with this one.

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

Still showing in the official results, by the way.

I'm sure all of that will be sorted out at a time in the not-too-distant future...

She'll need to work on the bike segment for next year.

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Find out what it is in life that you don't do well, then don't
do that thing.

If Lance can still race triathlons and road races, I'm pretty sure this girl can race other triathlons and other road races. She just won't be posting here anymore ... like that newbz guy after being called out for cutting the course short. She'll be going to beginingtriathlete.com just like newbz

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__________________________________________________________________________
My marathon PR is "under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."

Lance cannot race anything sanctioned. It has to be unsanctioned for him to legally compete.

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

semantics ... he can still race. He's not banned from every race out there. If he still wants to get his fix of doing a race, he can still do it even with the WADA thing. That was my point.

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__________________________________________________________________________
My marathon PR is "under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."

Here is a link to a report that came out last April, that analyzes the top 10 threats to sport. The premise on cheating is that cheating at any level destroys the integrity of the sport, which causes it to lose its appeal to "the masses", which then erodes the competitor base. No interested competitors, no sponsors, no races.

http://www.playthegame.org/...sports_integrity.pdf

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

The OP started a thread wherein she was receiving a lot of support from everybody and that support extended over a period of time with a genuine interest showed in her situation and how things played out for her on race day. She told her story briefly and basked in the kudos. Then she did something a little bit odd...in retrospect. She posted comments about other's drafting at the race in a separate post, almost as if it were just an aside. Yes...that's right...SHE was the one who first accused people of cheating at the race though her comments were not directed at anyone identifiable. Still, she was the one who broached the subject...it was not our anonymous first time poster who did that. Maybe you don't see that as significant, but I do and I suspect others do as well.

So maybe your decision to throw in with Power13 and "shame the shamers" comes from a principled place and I will assume it really does. Perhaps it was rooted in the Golden Rule...treat others in the way you wish to be treated. I wonder if our serial cheater lives by that rule? I'll give her the benefit of the doubt and assume she does. Perhaps a little reading through the threads linked below will give us some perspective on how our serial cheater feels about cheating and how cheaters should be treated in an online forum, as she's posted in all of them...and more. Fascinating reading and full of irony.

Should this be a DNF or a DQ at Kona?
Riding a bike during a 13.1
A Cheater's Modified Pullbouy at IMTX
Posers
What's the IMFL Swim Like?
Re: 38 Minute Swim Guy at IMLP
Kip Litton (marathon serial cheater) Exposed in New Yorker
Finisher's Medals

I hope you reconsider your position.

lol you've done your research, and i've enjoyed wasting time to read it...

my favorite is post 21 in the "whats the ironman florida swim like?"


and i quote "I think I'd prefer just swimming one lap ;) "

sounds premeditated

I was wondering the other day about starting a new wristband thing (like the Livestrong bracelets), but where every dollar donated to buy a bracelet funds whatever agency does the drug testing. It's supposed to be prohibitively expensive for RDs to arrange to have testing done. Maybe we can all help subsidize it ... put our money where our mouths (or fingers) are.

I think the bands should be blood red.

I would argue that point. While it may not be rent money, there are a LOT of age groupers at the pointy end of the stick that are receiving sponsorships and other benefits while not being pro. Free shoes, bikes, clothing, discounts, etc. I would bet that a top sponsored age grouper collects a few thousand a year in benefits, if not more. And that argument trickles down, there may be competitive age groupers that are losing out on some of these benefits to dopers.

Pro's are limited in number. Age groupers are legion, and for the younger, more talented age groupers (Such as Nick Baldwin who posts on here) are where our next wave of pro's come from. You want to see clean sport at the top levels? Start with the seed corn, education and testing.

John

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Given all that has transpired, that last one gives me a queasy feeling...Dr. Post graciously sends 50(!) medals, one might think we'd have seen some photos of the happy recipients after the fact or at least heard something about how successful the clinic and medal giveaway was.

There was a lot of "white knighting" going on in the the thread that many are referring to. The fact that she was basking in praise off a lie is why the piling on occurred.

Edit: I don't see this thread lasting long.

I don't think we're really disagreeing with each other at a fundamental level. In theory, I totally agree that everyone in a race field should be subject to random drug testing. I was just getting at when it comes to doping, there are limited testing resources available because of time and money, so USADA, etc.. has to pick their battles, and it's reasonable for them to go where doping has the most economic impact.

Now you bring up another idea on how to reduce doping in the races that have the most economic impact. Do we go from the "bottom >> up", or do we go from the "top >> down"... (is this a discussion on doping, or Reaganomics??) Going from the "bottom >> up" would certainly reduce doping in the AG ranks, which of course is good. Would it have an impact on the pro ranks? Yes, almost definitely. It's really just a question of cost, because the "bottom >> up" approach would likely be more expensive than the "top >> down" approach, due to a higher number of tests. I don't know how much drug testing costs, other than "it's expensive". It also depends on where your priorities are, and that will largely be selfishly determined - ask a pro, and he/she most would likely go for the "top >> down" approach. Ask an age grouper, and he/she will probably endorse the "bottom >> up" approach. (again... this really feels like Dems vs. Reps, doesn't it? haha!)

Certainly, when it comes to other areas (drafting, course cutting, education about doping, etc..) the resources are not as limited, and therefore equal enforcement/effort across the board is feasible, and should be pursued. This is not really debatable by anyone who understands the rules of sportsmanship and fair play.

Given all that has transpired, that last one gives me a queasy feeling...Dr. Post graciously sends 50(!) medals, one might think we'd have seen some photos of the happy recipients after the fact or at least heard something about how successful the clinic and medal giveaway was.

Agreed.

I'm investigating that currently for a different reason, and I'm getting quotes of between $600-1000. Per individual.

John

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i think if we can abolish cheating of any sort we ought to do so, and if slowtwitch can help uncover cheaters that's all for the better. i've been trading some emails with marc roy, i'm looking forward to, along with a great partner like sportstats, coming up with some guidelines, utilities, conventions, best practices for how to ferret out cheaters without falsely accusing those who are simply the victims of circumstances. for example, chips that stop and then conveniently start are rare to nonexistent. but sometimes chips do flame out, and we need to recognize that this might have happened in some cases. sometimes mats flame out. but then they'll flame out for everyone rather than just one person, i suspect.

where i would tread more lightly is in the public shaming part. i don't know that this is your duty or my duty or the community's duty. i'd like to keep a cheater from prevailing, and i'd like to stop a serial cheater from racing in the future. but i suspect serial, premeditated cheating is evidence of a disease. i don't think public naming and shaming is the goal. i think disqualifying and banning is the goal. you can do that without making someone run the gauntlet.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Yikes! That's a lot! I think I read that the guy who put on Gran Fondo NY paid $17,000 from his own pocket for testing. It's a shame it would be so prohibitively expensive.

As the one who started that discussion, let me be clear - that is NOT what I said. I never said it was a waste if time to worry about it.

What I said was that the reaction was out of proportion. Sorry, I don't think that all cheating is "the same". I am NOT saying it is OK, or it doesn't matter.

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Nope, he pretty much understood exactly what I was saying. Glad to see some have reading comprehension. Others focus on sub-points and went off the rails.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

Of course. Which is why you said the below I'm sure. Glad we know how you feel about cheating. Doesn't matter as long as it doesn't affect the top of the field.


"You know what, to some degree, yeah. If someone uses T or EPO to log a MOP finish, how does it impact you? They took away a spot from you? You should have been 92nd instead of 93rd? Are you that shallow about your results?"

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Trying to give you some perspective, not defending cheating.

Reading comprehension....amazing how others were able to gt the point, not to mention I have continually said I was defending or condoning cheating.

But somehow you know better and are on to what I am really saying.....

You go with that. I gotta get on yet another flight today....out.

*edit for typo

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

There is no perspective to cheating. Try again.

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There's plenty of perspective necessary when looking at cheating. You're really going to argue that what T3 did was as bad as what 7 did? Stop being so patronising.

The great thing about threads like this is it becomes easily obvious who is willing to rationalize cheating.

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Part of it is that certified testing can only be done through two labs in the US, and the tests and equipment for them both are expensive.

John

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Yeah, but that's not the same as defending cheating! <rolleyes>

I think an objective argument could be made, all things considered, that the underlying behavior of T3 is actually worse in some ways even though the result of the behavior is far less significant. I'm not making that argument, but a psychiatrist sure might, if asked "which behavior is more pathological/sociopathic"... Depends on what you're measuring, or maybe the angle of that differing perspective you're arguing for. How newsworthy it is, how much money is involved...that's not the point.

I know someone who finished IMFL (not this year) after much adversity - far more than T3 - in pretty close to the same time. It seems to me the bragging about a supposedly equivalent yet fraudulent accomplishment certainly could be more offensive to that individual than the more abstract, to them, transgressions of 7, even though the latter are (obviously) massively worse/impactful in many other ways.

I guess what I'm saying is, there is not a universal or absolute scale for perspective. You may have a scale, I may have a scale, but they aren't going to be the same in every circumstance. If you're a scrabble player, you're going to be more upset about the scrabble cheating scandal than, well, anybody who doesn't care about competitive scrabble. Talk about a kerfuffle in a teapot... I mean, come on, that's just a board game! Have some perspective, stupid New York Times!!

I think you mean "justifying" cheating. Rationalizing cheating would be trying to explore why people do it, justifying it would be explaining how it's ok to do it. There's also an ideological difference in how those two concepts have been used. To rationalize is more connected with the logical tradition, while to justify is more theological. Given your hostility to a complex view of "cheating," however, I'm not surprised that you're also hostile to the concept of rationalizing, mistaking it as you have done for justification.

Good post, sorry I was typing my response while you posted yours. Complexity is good.

You really could say that T3's actions completely parallel 7's. Her willingness to to whatever it took to reach her goal (finisher's medal), her denouncing other cheaters at the race, promoting herself and her accomplishment, her complete denial that she had done anything wrong and subsequent attempts to use any avenue available to "prove" her innocence and discredit anybody who said differently, her denial of other cheating even after IMFL had been proven and then the complete disappearance after.

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I think you're right that those are some interesting parallels, and your point fits in with skip's about the dangerous causes of this kind of destructive behaviour. If we look at cheating as a symptom then it says some pretty horrible things about certain aspects of human psychology, whether you're T3 or 7. I still think it's pretty obvious that the massively different scale, duration and financial and sporting impact of T3 and 7's actions warrant significant attention, though.

Cheating is definitely wrong most of the time for most people, I'm just trying to question what I read as your absolutist view. Who decides what cheating is and is not? If someone (presumably outside sport) cheats in order to fight a greater moral wrong, such as a journalist pretending to be someone else so they can expose fraud/extortion/bunga bunga parties, is that still absolutely morally unacceptable in your eyes? Don't feel like I'm expecting a point by point rebuttal, I'm just trying to gesture towards the "perspective" I argued was necessary when looking at cheating.

Er, obviously T3 was cheating... not righting some greater moral wrong. Just thought I'd get that in there in case anyone's about to accuse me of "defending cheating."

ive commented on this subject before. here is an interesting article outlining the rationalization of cheating....

http://business.time.com/2012/06/18/why-almost-all-of-us-cheat-and-steal/

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~sarcasm saves lives

Of course it matters. Why say more . If you are past 5th grade and do not know it you may never.

One time in a swim a kayaker said some people touched a bouy and did not go around it. They stop a group and then let them go because they did not know which ones were guilty. I was in the group they stopped (in the water) I felt so guilty even though I had not did it. That was years ago and it still bothers me. I got a medal that day and felt like I needed to say something which i didn't but I felt like a cheat.
Funny story that day I got out of water and for some reason thought I would take off wet suit on beach. A wave washed me down the shore about 10 yards , i stood up and it happened again. One leg in one about 1/2 way out of my wet suit.....everyone was laughting

I am the user formally known as “gerechtigheid” and I would like to clarify a few things here. I haven’t replied back as that user because the account was disabled. I assume because of either her claims of harassment or the fact that I used a disposable email account during registration. I was hoping to stay anonymous because I have discovered that one can never underestimate the motivation of someone (or their associates) to obtain “retribution” over a perceived injustice. I can assure you that nothing nefarious was going on here.

Background:

I had no axe to grind. I do not know the person involved, and have never previously contacted her in any way shape or form. She does not know me and I do not know her. I did not even know her name until November 2nd when she posted a photo of her race bib along with a vase of flowers and a teddy bear that her boyfriend gave her. The bib number was barely blurred out. In fact the borders of the numbers were still readily visible if you clicked on the picture to view it full sized. She has since deleted that picture. I cannot post it here without her (the copyright holder’s) permission, and I seriously doubt I would be able to obtain that now. However, several people in that thread saw it and can verify this.

I took a mental note of the number so I could track her progress during the race along with a few other people that I was going to cheer on.

I really wanted to see this young lady finish. I like stories of people overcoming adversity and accomplishing great things. I read about her struggles back in August and like many others, developed a passing interest in how she would do when race time came around. She was one of a few people that I wanted to track during the race and then cheer on as they ran across the finish line on the live video feed.

As the day unfolded I noticed her bike splits were showing that she was in jeopardy of not making the cut off. I didn’t even notice her screwed up swim time. I was later happy to see that she did indeed make the bike cut off and started into the run. Her run splits then showed that she was obviously walking (18 min pace) and then halfway through they simply stopped. I figured that she had finally DNF'd after struggling all day. It was the logical conclusion based on her split times. I stopped keeping track of her at that point and figured that she would probably post an update on what had happened, e.g., “how the wheels came off”, “undertrained” etc. Despite this, I was impressed that she still showed up, toughed it out and gave it a huge effort. Even if it ends up as a DNF, that kind of effort is still honorable.

Two days later:

She finally posts an update. She claims to have run the marathon at a 9 minute pace. RED FLAG. I distinctly remember seeing her in the tracker performing at walking pace two days earlier. So I go look her up in the athlete tracker and see if maybe the timing was screwed up and was since corrected. If that were to be the case, I was prepared to be both shocked and awed at an incredulous 4 hour IM marathon from this young lady.

Then I notice the finish time, which was 4 minutes and 55 seconds after the end of the first lap. So she ran 161 mph on the last lap? It was so fast that the timing mats on the second lap couldn’t even register it? It became very obvious what happened here. My heart sank. I decide to sit on my hands for a bit, see if anyone else says anything, and give her the chance to come clean.

Two more days later:

After a couple of more days and more people congratulating her on her “finish” I decide to say something about it in the spirit of this post:

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...rum.cgi?post=4064550

Mr. Empfield is obviously a wise man.

Notice that I never posted any information about this young woman except for the bib number, and that was it. She had already posted a picture of it herself the day before the race.

The claim about harassing her “across several forums as well as facebook” is a patent lie. I have never conversed with her in any manner. No proof of this from any of these supposed places will ever be provided because it never happened. She simply did what many do when the heat is on. “play the victim”

Why did I do it?

Most competitors actually train hard all year. Many of them make great sacrifices with time, money and family. They tough it out with grit and perseverance and sometimes fight the battle of their lives on race day to accomplish something extraordinary. For most, it is a result that they worked hard for all year. For some, it is a defining moment in their lives.

To allow people to get away with cheating and shortcutting this process denigrates the sport and degrades, or “cheapens” these hard-fought accomplishments. I won’t stand for it and neither should anyone else.

Shame on those who rationalize in favor of anyone who cheats. They should know better. Everyone learned about this as children. There is no valid excuse.

I applaud you.

The reference to you attacking her across many forums was called out by one of the posters. She conveniently didn't respond to that call out, like all of the other call outs.

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__________________________________________________________________________
My marathon PR is "under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."

Thanks for all the info! I hadn't seen the picture with her bib number and was wondering how you had known it - now that is all clear. The claim of "harassment across several forums as well as facebook" was a pretty obvious lie, since your post was quite anonymous. Now I can go to sleep feeling like I know the whole story...

Thanks for doing this, and for sharing your most recent wise words.

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Thanks for doing this and actively collaborating with Marc. As I mentioned in the sportstats thread, Marc and his crew go far beyond basic timing. For years they have been going out of their way to identify suspect results and corroborate with various timing stations and what the splits "should be". Marc goes through the entire list of Kona qualifier and rolldown guys before the results go up to manually double check that no one is getting a free ride. If that can be complimented with what ST can provide in a respectful way, that is even better.

I was just thinking the same thing. I got a pit in my stomach. I remember when she posted that thread. I'd really like to know exactly where those medals went.

I give mine to my 6yo twin nieces, they love them and treat them like gold!!! One of the twins wants to do a "swim, bike, run..Auntie Ky, they call it a TRIATHLON!!" I literally got choked up when she told me.

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Thanks for stepping forward with this. Am I reading things correctly that the picture posted of the race number "pre race" had the race number partially blurred out? So the entire plan was pre meditated and the number was blurred in the pre event picture to make sure that no one could track properly? The entire story of putting the timing chip on the shoulder strap premeditated?

I have heard of people who just took the easy way out and cut the course, but what you are saying is that this was a premeditated 1 loop swim, 1 loop bike, 1 loop bike 2/3Ironman outing? Slowman, I realize the previous thread is locked, but what he is saying is that the entire plot was premidated and not just something that shook out on a bad day. Sorry, I missed parts of what happened. If ST can be instrumental in outing that type of behaviour that is a great thing.

Except even this is false. When someone trains with EPO or any PED labeled as illegal for out of competition usage, they hit you when they swing their arms. EPO lets you train and recover outside of your normal capabilities. Even if you assume that the effects of EPO does not have a long term physiological effect once someone quits training with it, can change your mental approach to racing because you will have the experience of going farther into your own personal red zone and the suffering in the race may seem less.

Sorry, I just don't believe that all types of cheating are equal. They just aren't, in my book. I don't have much need in my life for moral absolutism. Too many shades of grey out there.

YMMV...which is just fine. I have no need to get you to agree with me. I am perfectly happy with agreeing to disagree.

However, given your proclivity to beat LA breads into the ground, I have no doubt that you will reiterate for the umpteenth time what you have already stated.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

I'm throwing the Bullschitt flag on this post.

Let me get this straight....you have been lurking on ST and following her saga. Then, after seeing the blurred out numbers in the photo she posted of her bib, you went to the lengths of discerning what the actual bib number was so you could track her. A woman you have never met and never had any direct interaction with ('cuz you were only a lurker here)....you felt compelled enough to track her progress?

Then, after discovering her cheating, you were so outraged that you created a throw away e-mail address so that you could create an account here specifically to out her....of course all done anonymously because you can never underestimate the motivation of someone to obtain retribution. You don't say......

And none of you guys find this behavior bizarre, if not downright disturbing? Instead, you are cheering this behavior on.

Wow.....

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

What matters most is learning how to pedal your bicycle faster than the person who is behind you

You can stop making excuses anytime you feel like it........ and when you do I will agree with you.

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**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**

It looks like we're running out of things she has said that could possibly be true.

Cheating does matter regardless of who or where it occurs. The most important thing with this sport or any other activity where you achieve self growth is reaching within the limits of oneself and achieve a goal. Now in this case it should be 10 hrs, 11 hrs, 13 hours etc. But to achieve it must be done within the boundries set. For most athletes, the only one who it matters the most to is that athlete.
This really is not about one specific finisher it is about having the intergrity to do things the right way. If for no other reason than to do so for yourself.
In this case though there was a potential reward for the finish. This finisher finished within 2 minutes of being the 500,000 finisher of Ironman Races. That finisher got free entries into future races. That is a potentially large sum of money for entry fees. Now what does the WTC do for the 500,000 finisher as he is now actually 499,999 and the person who finshed right behind him is the 500,000 finisher. So even in a 14 hour finish there was a potential reward. Hopefully if the results are corrected the WTC does the right thing and rewards the correct finisher.





http://futrmultisport.com/

Right, cause cheaters who are MOP are BOP don't affect anyone. Attitudes like the one Power13 has are disgusting and the reason cheating is an issue in the sport. Pretty easy to rationalize to yourself why it's ok to cheat when you think your aren't taking away someones podium spot. Doesn't matter where it takes place. Cheating is wrong and should be called out. Thankfully most people don't have their head buried in the sand on the issue.

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That's a great point - I guess what I was trying to express is that if someone does this exhaustively out of races I don't care - I would consider training with EPO to get huge unnatural fitness gains and then racing against me swinging your arms and hitting me. I was simply meaning to give a broad example, but upon deeper thought, you are right about EPO. Basically, I was saying I don't give a crap what you do with your own body and morals, so long as it doesn't have an impact on your performance when you toe the starting line of an organized race.

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A) thank you for proving my point re: your posting tendencies.

B) let me know where I said cheating was OK. 'cuz I can certainly show you where I specifically said it was not OK

C) let me know where is said cheating should not be called out, or cheaters not be punished.

You really need to learn how to have a discussion, Travis and actually listen to what people are saying....not what you you think you are hearing.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

I'm a bit confused...what 'excuses' did I make that you are referring to? I believe the entire theme of this thread is that there are never excuses for explicit rule-breaking and such rule-breaking threatens the integrity of our sport. Can you please elaborate?

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People who whine about cheaters are crybabies and bitches in my opinion. If you put as much effort into your own training as you do your complaining you might be pretty fast.

There was this inline skater dude that used to follow me around when I rode my TT bike at the Rose Bowl. He was drafting freak and was on all kinds of EPO and shit, but he was never able to overtake me.

Understand?

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**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**

I understand but I respectfully disagree. Not going to argue with you though, though; no sense in it. Congratulations on not being over-taken by the inline skater on EPO and shit.

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Brad Stulberg
Author, Peak Performance
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Who is making these excuses for cheating you keep referring to? I know I certainly am not.

Earlier you said something like "go read all of P13's posts.". I would like to invite you to go back and re-read all of my posts in this subject and let me know where I have made excuses for cheating, condoned it or defended cheating in any way.

I have no problem agreeing to disagree, but have a real problem when people continue to misrepresent my positions and claim I excusing cheating.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

Power13 - not sure if you are responding to me, or someone else. Things seem to be getting a bit confusing. If you are referring to me, yes, this thread was inspired by my interpretation of some comments you had made which I read to be evaluating cheating under a lens of moral relativism; where some cheating is worse than other cheating, particularly in regards to who the offense is committed by (e.g., FOP, MOP, BOP athletes). I respectfully disagreed (and still do) and argue that any and all cheating should be held on an equal level of scrutiny given that explicit rule-breaking all has the same end which is corrupting the integrity of our sport.

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I guess I missed this whole episode. Was the thread merely locked or was it deleted?

I completely agree with the above comment.

I also disagree with Power13's attempt to expand the blame to the onetime poster for pointing out T3's apparent transgression. Whether he had an ax to grind, or not, she put herself up for examination with her voluntary participation on the original thread after the event. She was the one that said "look at me, I did something here".

I am very disappointed in this whole series of events. Am I surprised? No.

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What I do: http://app.strava.com/athletes/345699

good stuff starts on page 5

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/..._reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

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My marathon PR is "under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."

Thats cool Bro, I think all of the fuss over doping and drafting is not worth my time.........it's probably not worth your time either.

Carry on.

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**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**

High school kid sees all the success that dopers have, and the relatively few that get caught. Gets hold of EPO to try it, doesn't do the research on it and ends up killing himself with a stroke at night.

Still think doping isn't worth fighting? Drafting, you may have a point. But, I think doping and cheating in sport should be fought.

John

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Actually it's worth reading right from the beginning and pay attention to the timeline.

Brad, yes, I was referring directly to you and some of your posts. A swimmer who inadvertently swims inside a buoy is not the same as someone who only completes one lap of a two run course to achieve a MOP finish and that person is not the same as someon who dopes their way to the top of the sport. As I have said many times, I am happy to agree to disagree re: all levels of cheating are the same on a moral scale.

But please stop saying that I am excusing cheating or defending it. Because I most certainly am not. Integrity is a big thing for me personally and I have very little time for people who cheat....but I can also put things in perspective, as well.

Let me give you another example - a guy I play golf with semi-regularly has a tendency to hit a mulligan or fluff up his lies. I am a "play it as it lies" golfer and do my best to adhere to the rules of golf whenever I play. I give him some good-natured schitt about how he plays, but at the end of the day, he is hurting no one but himself. Now, if we were playing for money, it would be a different story and I would be al over him. I would think the difference here is pretty clear.

Similarly, my boss has pretty generous "gimmes" where I prefer to putt everything out. "gimmes" are not allowed unless you are playing Match Play. But when we play at his club and he is sponsoring me for the day, do you think it is proper for me to get all indignant over his "cheating"? I sure as hell don't.

Again, if you view all cheating to be the exact same, that is your perogative. And I am happy to acknowledge that. But please stop misrepresenting what I am saying.

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"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

You are enabling bad behavior. If that gets you by, that's your issue. I call people out for everything from lying to not taking the stroke and distance penalty. BTW, I probably have fewer friends than you.

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I'm not expanding blame, I am calling bullschitt on his supposed motives and find his actions troubling.

If he was so aggrieved by her actions, why not just go directly to sportstats or WTC and report his suspicions?

Oh right...then there wouldn't be the fun of a ST Witch Hunt.

Sorry, I find self-appointed protectors to be people to be wary of.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

Cheating will end the day we have world peace, infinite energy, and men and women can live in the same house together and get along peacefully without arguing about the toilet seat. Focus on what you can control. None of us, save a handful of posters on this board, have any control over cheating and its various forms. Race directors, course marshals, and volunteers, to a lesser extent, have an obligation to observe, report, and enforce rules violations. If you exert any thought at all to what a cheater is doing on the course you're merely distracting yourself from your own goal.


It really shocks me to hear people call for public shaming. Every single person on Earth has done something, somewhere at sometime that was a violation of some rule. I know everyone on this board has an ego the size of the Titanic, so I won't ask you to consider this for yourselves. Do you really want your wife, child, mother, or grandparent publicly shamed for every violation of every rule on the book? If someone is in the MOP or BOP and they get caught cheating, fine, DQ them on the spot. FOP is probably always more monitored so likely hood of blatant cheating goes down. No argument here. But when you engage in Twitch Hunts like what was seen yesterday you're only distracting yourselves from the goals you set for yourself. Most of us aren't pros. We're supposed to be having fun. If someone reduces their moral character it isn't gonna ruin my day.

For the record, I lost a podium slot at a local 5k last year because someone cheated. I don't care.

The mob mentality here on ST is growing and it is fast becoming the worst part of the forum.....



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But you SHOULD care and you SHOULD call them out. Even if you can't actually do anything about it you at least let them know that their action did not go unnoticed. Maybe they will think twice about cheating at the next race.

All that will do is create the potential for conflict that I do not desire. I stated my opinion. I asked questions of people. Don't tell me what I should or should not do. I asked questions and made suggestions.

I agree that ganging up on someone is over the line. I also feel that the folks who operate these races, and instituting more rigorous timing systems, are reacting to people's clamoring for accountability out there. That accountability can only come from enforcement of the rules. Bringing attention to bad behavior has helped improve enforcement.

Will my life change if I lose a podium spot to someone who cheated? Not really. But it doesn't mean they should be able to get away with it. These people are seeking attention, either emotionally or professionally. It should not be enabled.

edit for clarity.

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What I do: http://app.strava.com/athletes/345699

If you don't want to call them out that is up to you but I still don't understand why you "don't care". For those of us that rarely get the opportunity to stand on a podium, getting knocked off by a cheater would be a big, big deal. Doesn't it bother you that this person is bragging to their friends with your medal? I'm not saying that you should invite confrontation but you could at least pursue it through the RD.

Because who cares? Unless you're on the podium with the Pros you really aren't winning anything. Age group medals are no different than finisher's medals in the grand scheme of things. The only thing I care about is improving myself and beating whoever is next to me on race day. Especially tall guys, because I'm short. Also, finding a chick with a nice rear view who is moving at, or slightly better, than my pace and rabbit/carroting my way into the corral. I don't need a medal to prove I did that. I have a 3rd place medal from one of the shittiest race performances I've had. It's totally meaningless unless your getting screwed out of a Kona slot or money.

. Agreed 100%.

no, why should it? . Don't disagree...too bad that is not what happened here.

* edit to fix quotes

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

Cheating will end the day we have world peace, infinite energy, and men and women can live in the same house together and get along peacefully without arguing about the toilet seat. Focus on what you can control. None of us, save a handful of posters on this board, have any control over cheating and its various forms. Race directors, course marshals, and volunteers, to a lesser extent, have an obligation to observe, report, and enforce rules violations. If you exert any thought at all to what a cheater is doing on the course you're merely distracting yourself from your own goal.


It really shocks me to hear people call for public shaming. Every single person on Earth has done something, somewhere at sometime that was a violation of some rule. I know everyone on this board has an ego the size of the Titanic, so I won't ask you to consider this for yourselves. Do you really want your wife, child, mother, or grandparent publicly shamed for every violation of every rule on the book? If someone is in the MOP or BOP and they get caught cheating, fine, DQ them on the spot. FOP is probably always more monitored so likely hood of blatant cheating goes down. No argument here. But when you engage in Twitch Hunts like what was seen yesterday you're only distracting yourselves from the goals you set for yourself. Most of us aren't pros. We're supposed to be having fun. If someone reduces their moral character it isn't gonna ruin my day.

For the record, I lost a podium slot at a local 5k last year because someone cheated. I don't care.


^^^^^Slowtwitch post of the year^^^^^

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**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**

You should be proud that you can have a bad day and still take 3rd place. For that reason it is not "totally meaningless". Allot of us are not racing for "Kona slots or money" but still find meaning in it. Otherwise why would we be doing it?

I do it for my own benefit, my own sense of accomplishment. I don't need to be recognized for what I've done by others.


I guess to me the meaning is in the hours spent training. The careful, deliberate eating program. (coming from a 5'6" former 270lber, this is a big deal) Unlike most of the guys on this board, I work a very physical job as a fabricator of structural steel, so there's meaning in the extra caution I have for safety every day, thinking if I screw up and get hurt it could cost hundreds in race fees and months of preparation. This has actually happened, as I had a hernia repaired 10 or 12 weeks before my first sprint triathlon, fortunately I was able to finish it. The meaning comes from living the lifestyle every day. The race is the release of the training: MY TRAINING. Nothing anyone does on that course, that doesn't cause me physical harm, has absolutely jack shit to do with what I've done to achieve MY result. The rest, to me, is icing on the cake or not worth thinking about.

"The only thing I care about is improving myself and beating whoever is next to me on race day. Especially tall guys, because I'm short."

So on one hand it's important to beat the tall guys but on the other hand nothing matters except "my result"

The next time you get an AG medal I hope you can enjoy it and be proud of it because you've certainly worked for it. That's all I'm going to say.

You can twist words all you want. I think everyone knows that "beating tall guys" is a jibe. Except you.

Yes, surely the height joke is a jibe - but what about "beating the guy next to me"? If it really, really doesn't matter at all what anyone else does or doesn't do, why on earth would you pay to enter races at all? And don't say it's just because it's the only way you can get a closed course on which to test yourself against your former and future selves, nobody's going to buy that. You may not care about most of what goes on in an organized competitive event, but you clearly care about some aspects of it, and other people care about other aspects - not exactly fair for you to judge them on the aspects they happen give a shit about (or them you, of course - but you're the one asking why they care and claiming they shouldn't.)

At the end of the day we have been testing ourselves against one another since the dawn of time. I may not be able to beat Crowie, Macca, or Jacobs, but I sure as hell can beat the guy or girl next to me on the day of the race. I get a thrill out of it. Big deal, we all do. It's not my motivation. It's not the meaning, I described that earlier. A medal, and if someone cheats, doesn't alter that for me. Do I want people to cheat? No. If you can catch them and race directors institute practices to do so, I'm all for it. They have some now. They'll be instituting more. Good.

My point, which people seem to love to get away from in this thread, is that focusing on a cheater in the race is likely hampering your performance. Furthermore, I'm not claiming what people should or should not do. That's for individuals to decide. Moreover, I'm not judging anyone. If you want to care, fine, so be it. I'm just saying in my view that I don't have time to worry about things I can't control. That's for the race directors and organizers to decide. I don't know why you're attempting to manufacture points of view for me, but you can stop any time.

You, and others like you remind me of why I hate this dumb sport so much. I just like to train. I would like to put it all together one of these days and whip you like cheap cake mix. You can do every drug in the world and draft off of me for the rest of your your life, but you will never catch me because your heart is full of excuses and blame and jealousy.

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**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**

April: HITS Napa HIM
May: Auburn LC Duathlon
June: Boise 70.3
July: Vineman 70.3
Nov: IMAZ

Would love to see you out there.

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*********************************************
Brad Stulberg
Author, Peak Performance
http://www.BradStulberg.com

Love how this has turned into a circle jerk of the head in the sand crowd.

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TravisT wrote:

Love how this has turned into a circle jerk of the head in the sand crowd.

Yeah, I'm signing off now. Cheating is cheating, particularly when explicit and with intent. "Inadvertently swimming inside a buoy" is very different than swimming inside all the turn buoys with an intent to cut the swim course short...or swimming one loop of a two loop course...or running half of a marathon...


I will re-frame from issuing any other comments, but you can imagine what I am thinking.

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*********************************************
Brad Stulberg
Author, Peak Performance
http://www.BradStulberg.com

Your race schedule is not good enough for me.

However a shift in your mentality might be adequate........

Come on out to Phoenix, AZ for the Lifetiime fitness 125 in April. I will beat you like a drum.

Dont be a pussy........

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**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**

You realize you just drew a difference between different types of cheating, right? If you cut the course, you have cheated. Doesn't matter if it is 10 feet or 10 miles....

So maybe all cheating is not, in fact, the same.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

Intent brother, intent.

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*********************************************
Brad Stulberg
Author, Peak Performance
http://www.BradStulberg.com

So maybe all cheating is not, in fact, the same.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

Yeah that should just about wrap up this thread. It's gone full circle now, to not evening identifying with the original point.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Your finish time is your individual satisfaction. If you cheat, how satisfied are you? You can't lie to yourself that it was your best, honest, effort.

Amen. Passing the health effects of taking the banned PEDS we are only cheating ourselves in amateur sport.

Last year I raced on my artificial knee, with my new heart-lung transplant, new artificial hip, insulin shot before the race, statins every day, Metoprolol to keep my heart rate down, iron infusions to keep my hemoglobin up, thyroid meds, antidepressants caused by reading ST, but I didn't take any steroids because I believe in a level playing field, and other fairy tales.

And I can look at myself in the mirror and say with a straight face I never cheated. Going 127 races without a drafting penalty doesn't count....

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"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank

you are the one who started this, so bring it any day of the week.........I will beat you and your coach like a used rug.

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**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**

Seriously bro, why you so mad? Because you guys disagree on the definition of cheating?

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@adamwfurlong

Brilliant Observation!!

I am mad because people spend so much time tripping out about this dumb Sport.

Most people around here could not ride a sub 60 TT or run a sub 45 10K

But they are all tripping out like everyone else with that kind of discipline is a cheater

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**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**

So, your solution to folks bitchin' about cheating is to challenge the bitchers to a runoff? Yeah, that moves the conversation forward.

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What I do: http://app.strava.com/athletes/345699

My solution is the real solution. Your solution is the same old bullshit that I have been reading here for the last 10 years

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**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**

Next time you are in or around louisville i need to buy you about 10 beers. The rest of you bagging on mojo and power13, get a fucking life. Think about this thread next time you roll through a stop sign or go 15 mph over the limit. We are not condoning cheating, we are condoning the high fucking horse attitude on this site that many of you have.

this whole thing is fascinating, in a bizarre sort of way. I can't believe people are so bent on outing some back-of-the pack athlete. That someone would go to such lengths to enter and travel to a race, cheat, then claim to have finished ... seems rather sad to me. So why go on a lynch mob, and why such schadenfreude?

My guess is that it arises from an inflated sense of this notion of "finishing". If someone else claims to, but they didn't, then it somehow diminishes what you did. Which is just stupid.

In a crit if a guy sits out 5 laps then jumps back in, I don't give a shit unless he tries to take a money spot or interferes with someone else. Why? Because no one gets a medal for finishing. It's racing.

I meant condemning. Drunk at lake so not forming cogent thohghts.

Stay thirsty my friend.

holy shit! this thread has become like a high school dance off!

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~sarcasm saves lives

I normally hang out in the Lavender room but I saw this this thread and I kind of freaked out. I will challenge the OP and his coach to a throw - down any day of the week

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**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**

a bit more argumentative than i'd like but pretty much this. the "i got busted for drafting and liked it" circle-jerk thread a few weeks back made me want to rip my eyeballs out, maybe even hang out with my wife.

Your ability to be faster than the person you're talking to does not validate your argument against them.

Cheating on any level is wrong, and just because you don't feel slighted doesn't mean others shouldn't or don't. They have every right to spend time on helping to fix this issue in the sport, and frankly you have no idea how much anyone trains before, after, or even while posting. I personally have posted to anti-doping threads from the stationary bike or trainer in the past, I'm sure others do too.

Smart people are comfortable with their own physical prowess and they never make excuses.

If you want to party, I will beat up on you any day of the week just like I'll do to the OP and his Coach.

Bring it!! I cannot wait to have another easy Victim

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**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**

Cheats ruin anything they participate in. I was thinking though, that there could be seen a "silver lining to the dark cloud". Cheats could motivate the legit folks to work a little harder.

People who constantly whine about cheaters ironically defy themselves of their own athletic accomplishments and endeavors.

But that is Their Problem, Not Mine.................

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**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**

The suggestion that anyone who breaks the law (e.g., by breaking the speed limit) is on a high horse if he appreciates cheaters being called out in triathlon is absurd.

As an example, when I drive to work, I'm not engaged in a competition with others to get there in the shortest amount of time without exceeding the speed limit. If that was the game, I'd play it according to the rules. And I would appreciate it if others participating in the same game were called out for violating the rules.

I make zero excuses for my own abilities. It's not a comparison to my choices, it's merely the battle for what makes sports interesting. When I compete I know I'm 100% clean, and I don't think "that guy beat me because he doped". When I watch sports though, I look at the accomplishments in the light of day, and if it's clear it could only have been accomplished through doping, I have an issue with that.

Your point is completely invalid.

Now that you've spent plenty of time taking trash-talking shots at me [and my coach for some odd reason], I feel the need to slightly defend myself, but more importantly the initial point of this thread. As for myself, I absolutely love the sport and do spend a fair amount of time on it, mostly training, with some writing and commenting on forums like this too. I've never actually raced a stand-alone TT, but given objective data (e.g,. power numbers) I am pleased with my cycling and think I would perform well in such an event, although I certainly need to work on becoming more aero as I my speed for power-to-weight is not where it should or could be. I run well under 45 for a 10K.

When you first started calling me out I thought it was in the interest of taking what was fast turning into an immature 'he-said, she-said' thread, and having some fun with it via trash-talk, so I responded with my race schedule, all in a light-hearted manner. In terms of actually racing you, in all seriousness, I could care less. When I go out to race I only care about beating one person and that is myself; if I do that, the rest will work itself out and the chips will fall where they may. I am not yet at a level where it is smart for me to race from start to finish, so I really only take off the blinders during the back half of the run...so 'racing' me wouldn't be nearly as much fun as you may think it would.

So, now to my second overarching point -- this thread in general -- you may be thinking "if Brad only cares about beating himself, why would he care about anyone else cheating." In response to that, I challenge you and everyone else to re-read my initial post, and tell me what aspects of it you disagree with? Did you even read my initial post? If so, I am kind of shocked by your response, given that your demeanor as represented by your last few posts tell me you probably would agree with much of what I said, no? It certainly sounds like you love to race...don't you want to protect what makes a 'race' a 'race' which is a set of rules? And it also sounds like you are very much a fan of pushing yourself and personal honor; did you not read the part about what I called 'private shaming' or standing in front of the mirror at night? What's your bone to pick there?

Anyways, my intention was never to start a name-calling hissy fit, or to challenge anyone to any races. It was simply to express an opinion that centered around intentful cheating of any kind by any level athlete as being toxic for our sport. I have nothing else productive to offer to this discussion.

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*********************************************
Brad Stulberg
Author, Peak Performance
http://www.BradStulberg.com

Over the years I have become weary of all the posts around here about cheating.

Last year, I read a book: "Major Taylor: A Black Athlete a White Era and The Pursuit to be the Worlds Fastest Human Being"

You should read it. It's about bicycle racing. This guy never cheated, he just busted his ass. I think with a solid work ethic, anyone can overcome any form of cheating.

Reflecting on my remarks to you, I sound like a dick and I am sorry and I want you to acccept my apology.

I kind of get 'set off' when I read this cheating shit all the time.

With this in mind, I would love to throw down with you next season. This is because this place is more fun when people talk shit and offer up challenges to their fellow athletes. It is good for us and makes us better athletes.

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**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**

Jeeezus beeezus...finally, you got your Mojo back!

Agreed that constant whining about cheating is not particularly productive. Neither is allowing it to fester and spread unopposed simply because we tire of the fight. There's a balance to be found that is neither whining nor enabling, and it will never be enough, but the effort is that is noble and so we go on.

Train hard, race harder, protect the sport.