Just saw this! So sad to see...
So is this from the 2010 incidents, or is this a new finding? The site is in German and doesn't make a lot of sense...

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"I wanna go fast!"

Does this mean LA moves up to 22nd in XTERRA worlds?

Anybody have a link to the article in English?

Google the URL and use the translate. Its rough but gives you an idea.

wunderbar!

Former pro cyclist Bernhard Kohl said that Weiss did blood transfusions at "Humanplasma" with him in 2005. The National Antidoping Commission cleared him in 2010 but the court decided otherwise.

Good call.

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CAMPAGNOLO GRAN FONDO NEW YORK

This really isn't much of a surprise. The only shocking thing here is how the triathlon community was so welcoming to this guy in spite of his previously tarnished reputation in cycling. In all of the hype surrounding this uber-biker there was very little reference to the doping allegations, which I always found somewhat strange.

interesting characterization. his own country said their own guy didn't do anything wrong. but it is NADA (WADA?) that is politically motivated

hmmm

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

I'm just curious what you think anyone's motivation would be for falsely accusing Weiss of doping. He isn't that big of a deal.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

well whether it was a good call or not would depend on whether he really did do blood transfusions or not.

we the public, at the moment, only know that Bernhard Kohl said he did.

if you know more details, fill us in =)

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

sure but that doesn't mean he is lying necessarily.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

One option is that he doesn't like Weiss. Another is that he didn't want to be "the only one" (perceived culpability diminishes when there is the possibility of peer pressure).


I've no idea whether those are his motivations, but you asked what some might be.

long overdue. Hope this finds an end now.

so the question is - was Kohl's testimony the ONLY piece of evidence they had?

doubt it.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

it has already been 5 years!
you could cheat then finish your career with a process like that.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

So what's the spin on the fact that he was suspended today? And please stop using all caps.

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The Triathlon Squad

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WE'LL EXCUSE YOUR DOUBTING IT, BECAUSE YOU ARE IGNORANT OF THE FACTS LIKE MOST WHO WILL POST HERE.

I get that you like shouting at me. You are a friend of Michael. Don't do him a disservice here and spread false information.

1. He was sentenced by the court in 2005 but cleared by NADA (Austrian National Anti Doping Commission) in 2010.

2. The arbitration commission (?) now revised that clearance.


http://kurier.at/...sportmix/4450933.php

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CAMPAGNOLO GRAN FONDO NEW YORK

I've no idea whether it's the only evidence, but I'm not about to speculate. I also don't know enough about what counts as sufficient evidence in these cases and so am reluctant to speculate about whether that is what accounts for the difference in verdict.

KOHL FAILED TO SHOW UP ON NUMEROUS OCCASSIONS TO TESTIFY AT NADA TO HIS ALLEGATIONS.

You've written "we" a couple of times now. Who are you speaking for?

HE WAS CLEARED BY STATE'S ATTORNEY THIS YEAR AT THE REQUEST OF NADA.

he tested positive for a high blood cell count in 2007, but passed the EPO test -
that is consistent with blood doping story from kohl =)

http://velonews.competitor.com/...for-mtb-worlds_13226

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

It is on our home page:

http://www.slowtwitch.com/...hael_Weiss_2476.html


H

I'LL

When 2XU signed Weiss I sent them an email they had lost me as a customer - in a reply they stated "We always hope that we choose athletes who's abilities speak for themselves but also their stature in the the community and among their peers is of the upmost standards". I am curious to see how they handle the situation now and if they stand by their words ... Sponsors are responsible for their decisions in sponsoring doubtful athletes.

YOUR CAPS LOCK KEY IS STUCK

This is exactly what appears on the homepage story. So I must assume 2 things-

You speak for Weiss, and your caps lock is on.

""This is not from anything that is remotely recent. The allegation dates back to 2005, as I was a professional mountain biker, and is based solely on one individual�s verbal accusation. NADA is a politically motivated agency and this development is in complete disagreement with the ruling by the Austrian State's attorney which dismissed the case weeks ago, as there was no evidentiary proof," said Weiss to slowtwitch when asked about the ban. "All of my results in triathlon will remain standing, as the case has no basis in my career as a triathlete."
"

http://www.slowtwitch.com/...hael_Weiss_2476.html

hmmmm...

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The Triathlon Squad

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Stop spreading lies, it makes it only worse. Michael is a nice guy but he's made a mistake that he finally has to pay for.

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CAMPAGNOLO GRAN FONDO NEW YORK

LMAO

Actually, at least according to the front page story, the review of the dismissal was done by the national federation AND NADA.


John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

I was surprised by that as well as by Lava's big article on the guy. Aren't there enough people in triathlon worth writing about? The magazine is only like a dozen issues old and they are already resorting to interviewing people like Weiss?

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Portside Athletics Blog

It matters not for whom I speak, the facts matter, and the quote below sums it up. NADA refused to make a decision upon appeal and so requested the State's Attorney to review the facts and make a decision, which they diid earlier this year in Weiss' favor. NADA now doesn't like the outcome. In the US, I think we call that "Double Jeopardy". Apparently Austria knows nothing of that.

Love the related front page story from 2009: "Austria rocked once again"

Hannes Hempel is returning to Ironman in 2012 after his two year ban. There are things that the world just doesn't need.

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CAMPAGNOLO GRAN FONDO NEW YORK

and it seems like as evidence there is:

1. he WAS at that lab
2. kohl said he was at that lab for a transfusion
3. the lab knows people were getting transfusions there
4. a positive test for high red blood cell consistent with transfusions in that time frame.

if any of this is in error please correct me.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

x2

Good development.

Stop lying!

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CAMPAGNOLO GRAN FONDO NEW YORK

That's called incest. Or more friendly: small world.

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CAMPAGNOLO GRAN FONDO NEW YORK

I'm kind of curious about that actually. You have 15 posts on the forums (at the time I looked this up), 12 of which are in this thread, and one other where you bumped a 2 month old thread to proclaim he had been cleared of the charges (Sep last year).

Are you the one that held the needle?

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

Sorry you have a challenge in dealing with facts and have a bias that can't afford you the ability to employ critical thinking skills. Pathetic there are people that like to pile on and expose their utter ignorance when they have not the slightest of intellectual honesty to admit they haven't a clue about any of the details to the case. So they malign and demagogue instead instead of engage on the facts.

So fill us in man.
what are the facts? You seem to be claiming the ONLY evidence, is Kohl's testimony.

there seems to be further evidence though - failed test in 2007, lab confirming you were present. Is that not true?

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Goodbye Devlin, I don't have time for morons.

Read that article and get your own facts straight first. Do you understand German at all? I'm not sure what Michael's lawyer told you guys but I highly suggest to let it go. You are making things even worse for him.

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CAMPAGNOLO GRAN FONDO NEW YORK

You're fighting a losing battle in the court of public opinion Mapletop.

At least you got your caps lock key fixed - bravo.

Michi and Rachel Cole
Michi and Rachel Cole

Michael and Rachel married on August 6th in Kennebunkport, Maine. The couple met during Ironman Hawaii in 2009 and currently lives in Colorado Springs with their dog, Kona � named after the legendary race.
The church ceremony took place at South Congregational Church and was performed by Rev. Charles Whiston and Michael�s oldest friend, Mag. Michael Simmer of Austria.
Following the ceremony, Rachel�s parents, Jeff and Kim Cole, hosted a reception for 125 guests at their countryside farm known as MAPLETOP.
The couple is now preparing for a series of World Championship races including; Las Vegas 70.3, Ironman Hawaii, and Xterra Maui where Michi will represent Austria and Rachel will deliver SRMlive Telemetry.

Many thanks to family and friends for the kind wishes, love, and support!"




From his website.

:-)

..and where is that "evidence" you refer to?

Hahahah, I just kept reading all the post as if he/she was screaming. Very annoying

Public Opinion is most often unduly influenced by those who are absent facts and knowledge.

well now, this is just getting down right juicy.

Boom!

I googled the same words but you got there first - bravo.

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"Are you sure we're going fast enough?" - Emil Zatopek

a) finish this term paper, or; b) get the popcorn..

going with b)

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Coaching - Future Endurance

So clearly your opinion is a little biased mapletop

http://velonews.competitor.com/...for-mtb-worlds_13226

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

A humerous statement if you put it aside your "opinion" and the actual facts. Just lovely. Unfortunate that people here don't speak German and have to listen to your crap. Maybe Michael can translate The Kurier for you. Or better not. Keep the bubble alive.

Godspeed to you guys, you'll be back in no time. If we like that or not.

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CAMPAGNOLO GRAN FONDO NEW YORK

Nice detective work Axel....I am his father-in-law and know far more about this case than anyone who is posting here. It's really sad that some are so quick to jump on without any knowledge whatsoever or any notion of the process. I'll leave you with this, it's pretty fundamental.....a politically appointed Austrian commission refused to determine the outcome on the appeal and asked the Austrian State's Attorney to look at the case and make a finding. The SA office did so and concluded this summer that there was no factual evidence to support the underlying allegations that formed the basis of the case. The SA exonerated Weiss. This NADA decision today flies in the face of an objective an unbiased review by an experienced investigative body. Does that not raise questions? I'm done.

tremendous effort in bending reality.


Free advice from my side for you: Do not start to lend him money for his attorneys, this could easily ruin all of you financially - as it did with others before.

There was no NADA decision today. Let your son in law translate the article for you.

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CAMPAGNOLO GRAN FONDO NEW YORK

The really sad thing about these doping cases is that the dopers lie to the families and spouses, too. Maybe they even lie to themselves.

I will pull this up when Michael confesses. In a year, or two, or ten. But finally they all want to come clean.

I think the circumstances pointing towards him having used autologous blood doping raises more questions for people.. Myself included.

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BA coaching http://www.bjornandersson.se

You are correct, it was the Independant Arbitration Commission.

So can we all at least agree that Frodeno's tweet wasn't out of line?
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/..._latest_reply;so=ASC

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IG: idking90

Kind of changes your "facts" quite dramatically, doesn't it?

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CAMPAGNOLO GRAN FONDO NEW YORK

Your son-in-law is lucky to have you as a Father-in-Law. Truly. But I think uli is correct-he made a mistake and now has to pay for it.

x2. Variations on this situation have ended up ugly too many times to gloat. I hope Mapletop is ultimately proved right but if the LR teaches you anything it's that no-one ever changes his mind because of postings on a chat board. I hope he bows out for a while and let's the facts play out.

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"Are you sure we're going fast enough?" - Emil Zatopek

What is he suspended from? Mt Bike races or Triathlon?

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http://www.procompression.com - Athletic Performance Socks
discount code ES20 20%

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A cross..

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I could be wrong but it seems like he's banned from all competition

oh great; he and the wife were coming over for scrabble tomorrow night, now that's shot to hell.

Cool..so do you have like cows and stuff on your farm?

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"Good genes are not a requirement, just the obsession to beat ones brains out daily"...the Griz

 
To have cows first you must have bulls,
and with bulls comes shit.

I can't hear you...can you speak up a bit?

>Kind of changes your "facts" quite dramatically, doesn't it?

Another example of going after an athlete with hearsay and circumstantial evidence (as opposed to a positive test or physical evidence)

I have mixed feelings about that. You'd certainly like the strength of science or physical evidence before you destroy a career. But I also feel if you require those two things, the dopers will always win, e.g. if you show them where the bar is, they'll find a way to sidestep the bar with consistency.

More importantly: I was in Kennebunport on that date. Why wasn't I invited?

Hmm, well, if you don't want to be potentially subjected to Austria's laws then, um, don't commit crimes in Austria ;-)

Have you ever considered adding ferns to your son-in-laws workout space? From my understanding, ferns combined with a humidifier are far superior to blood doping, and the sporting bodies are fully on board with their use. I don't know the facts of the case, but that is immaterial, what is important is that we promote healthy, environmentally friendly alternatives to cheating in sport, and ferns are quite simply the best thing you can put in your work space. In fact, putting a small stem off of a fern into your water bottle will raise your lactic threshold by 2-3% DURING THE RIDE. You might also consider telling him that placing ferns throughout his home will only increase the benefits exponentially.

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"Remember the lumberyard, go balls out!"

this is the craziest thing I've read on slowtwitch ever. It tops even the libertarian ranting in the Lavender Room. Congratulations.

I'm having lunch with him on Thursday...this could be awkward...

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I got nothing.

Is it crazy, or is it so sane that I just blew your mind.

Well played sir. Well played.

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coming soon...

awfull... I love it



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Triathlon was started by a bunch of kids at the swimming hole, who heard the ice cream man. They swam to their bikes, chased down the truck, jumped off their bikes, and ran to be first in line.

That's some elitist bullshit right there.

the only mistake MapleTop has made here on this forum is to think it has any relevance to his familial issue. As in, seriously MapleTop, why give a FCK what ST thinks of your son-in-laws legal issues? If there ever was a "bigger fish to fry" this is truly it!! Go talk to CAS, not ST!

Now that aside, the facts at hand for lay people like me not in the know are:

- Bernard Kohl is an admitted cheat that has ratted Weiss' name re: blood doping (sounds arguably similar to a certain 7 champ).
- failing a red blood count test in 2007 before the UCI MTB World championships which in itself is not a positive test
- winner of Ironman ST. George and XTERRA World's since

Who do we believe? Certainly, where there is elevated red blood cells there is smoke, and usually fire based on many cases of the past. Pantani, Riis, and my country's Genevieve Jeanson (a sad, sad case truly)

Mike's quote below is interesting to me too because it can be suggested it outlines his cycling career was tainted and tri career is not. Given the $$ in triathlon I actually suspect his tri wins are clean. The issue is, they are tainted by the pleads of innocence post red blood cell test.

""All of my results in triathlon will remain standing, as the case has no basis in my career as a triathlete."

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@rhyspencer

LOL, it's funny how we all perceive our own country's system of justice to be far superior to anyone else's


allowing a blood-stained glove as evidence would never be permitted as evidence in America.
requireing someont to testify against their spouse is not permitted in America.
allowing someone to be tried a second time for the same crime is not permitted in America.
requiring someone to provide testimony that may incriminate them is not permitted in America.
requiring a defendant to take the stand and answer questions concerning the allegations against them is not permitted in America.

It's quite remarkable that they can legally take a blood sample from an athlete in America without probable cause.

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TriRaceBook.com
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Hawaii Qualification Analysis

Does this mean LA moves up to 22nd in XTERRA worlds?


:)

There's this misconception that circumstancial evidence is a somehow lesser or weaker form of evidence.

a) finish this term paper, or; b) get the popcorn..

going with b)


Ha ha ha, me too.

If there is one thing I have learned on ST is to be very careful with your words. If you rub someone the wrong way, the attacks will come and dirt will be dug up very quickly. Some people around here scare me but God help me, I can't stay away............

Why is it remarkable? The athlete is within his right to refuse the blood test.

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The Triathlon Squad

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hahaha

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http://www.y-rocket.blogspot.com/

Mapletop need to be voted of the island, no screaming in the classroom childrens

Re: Michael Weiss Suspended [JimMoss] [In reply to] Edit | Delete | Quote | Reply

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Kenny Rogers had MORE plastic surgery? Sheesh, barely knew it was him if it weren't for the beard!

Funny. Those same words can apply to Lance Armstrong.

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Adrian in Vancouver

You have to have been here for a while - death by tray is referring to a classic ST thread...

That was the weirdest thread ever. It's like a book I can't finish, every once in a while I'll go back and read part of it, but have never read it in its entirety.

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Portside Athletics Blog

The question remains, who was Mapletop originally before Jeff showed up for the finale?

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Of course it hurts. The trick is not minding it hurts.

It doesn't matter whether he did it this year, last year or 10 years ago. Any athlete who does it should be banned from competitive sports for life. We don't know if the changes incurred by doping ever revert back to baseline. We don't know how long the benefits last. And let's be real, there Are more cheaters who pass drug tests than non cheaters who fail.

One burning question keeps running over and over in my mind about this story...

Who the fuck is Michael Weiss?

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"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06

I guess so, if he doesn't want to be a professional athlete anymore. Total violation of one's civil liberties innit eh?

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TriRaceBook.com
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Hawaii Qualification Analysis

If you weren't in the room to physically see said athlete cheat, then you really have no excuse or reason to throw said athlete under the bus. You can speculate AT BEST.

As for Weiss accuser, a known cheat....I give no weight to his accusations. All cheaters try to blame others to try and make themselves look a little better. And as in any court of law, I want HARD evidence. Heresay is about as far as it gets from hard evidence. You sure as hell can't be accused and found guilty in a court of law based on heresay. You have to prove your case.

I'm neither for or against Weiss. I just know I wasn't there to see jack shit. Neither were any of you and this case is just really bizarre. When someone is cleared and then a year later overturned, I smell something that stinks of political corruption.

No. Being a athlete is not a civil right.

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The Triathlon Squad

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being an athlete is a profession, and like other professions there are barriers to entry, certification of skills, and procedures for removal from the profession.

If the accepted norms and codified expected behaviors of the profession are blood testing, then take the test or don't. The consequences are clear (or should be).

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Thanks Speed Racer for an objective and unemotional analysis. This forum thread is full of armchair lawyers and weekend warrior wannabees that think they understand the issues and have the facts, and dumbly think they can be judge, jury and executioner and get it right. Anyone with an ounce of intellectual honesty pays little attention to their rants anyway so it's comforting to know that their ramblings are pretty much irrelevant to most thinking folks.

Right..but do you have cows and goats on your farm? That would be cool!

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"Good genes are not a requirement, just the obsession to beat ones brains out daily"...the Griz

I think this page completes the above two posts quite nicely:

http://en.wikipedia.org/...Cognitive_dissonance

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The Triathlon Squad

Like us on Facebook!!!

You're welcome, but no need to thank me. There isn't a single person on this forum that saw Michael do anything.

There are a lot of members on this forum that are just completely full of themselves and think they know everything. Those are the ones who generally know the least. I think you can kind of figure out who those are.

I actually read Michael's Lava interview and hoped the best for him. Really good article. Especially when he had his uncle or someone sell his race wheels just to get to see your daughter. That's awesome!

Can you please give me more details? My daughter is 13yo.

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The Triathlon Squad

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Just for clarification. I assume you meant to reply to Mapletop? And you're referring to Mapletop's daughter / Michi's wife?

As for Weiss accuser, a known cheat....I give no weight to his accusations....


I wonder if any accuser (or person)in history has ever lived their lives without ever cheating or lying? That doesn't necessarily mean they have no credibility though.


And as in any court of law, I want HARD evidence.


Lots of cases are solved without hard evidence.

You are correct. Not sure how I did that. Sorry Paulo! :-)

Edit,,,,,,,deleted my post, remember its not worth posting to you
.......

You're smarter than you read.

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The Triathlon Squad

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Yeah, ok, if you say so. You're entitled to your opinion.

Who the fuck is Michael Weiss?

Precisely. Who fucking cares......

Whining about drafting and bullshit doping allegations makes Lions out of knuckleheads who normally do not have a thirst for blood.

If it ain't on TMZ, it never happened and no-one cares.....

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**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**

Actually in many legal proceedings involving sport, namely arbitrations, hearsay is admissible and will likely be considered by the arbitrator.

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Hilly Flats Racing

Actually in many legal proceedings involving sport, namely arbitrations, hearsay is admissible and will likely be considered by the arbitrator.


Circumstantial evidence is also quite common in criminal courts.

The really sad thing about these doping cases is that the dopers lie to the families and spouses, too. Maybe they even lie to themselves.

What a thread! Wow!

I will not comment on the case specifically, because quite honestly I don't really know the details or the parties involved at all really.

You are right about the denials though, generally with athletes that use PED's - that goes on, and on, and on. They'll keep denying until forced by law to tell the truth or perjure themselves under oath or in a court of law - then the confession comes out or years later when all is done and forgotton. More than a few have carried the truth to their graves continuing to deny, in spite of factual information incriminating them.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Is there a problem with circumstantial evidence?

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Hilly Flats Racing

Have you read Again to Carthage? I think that speaks for circumstantial evidence and sometimes how ridiculous it can be ;)

Not saying anything about the Michi case though.

Is there a problem with circumstantial evidence?


I was responding to the poster who said "I need hard evidence" like a court of law and I suggested that not all cases are based on hard evidence. Some use circumstantial evidence as proof.

I have not.

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Hilly Flats Racing

:)
It's hard work at times..!
Luckily a few people went along with it.

For what it is worth,

Marpletop's screaming has given me a new perspective on why my own In-Laws won't stand up for me:

On top of not having won any races I have also missed to accrue circumstantial evidence.

Der arme Michi. Poor boy. -haha

This document (translated with google) was pretty good : http://www.schwarz-auf-weiss.org/...__Jan_van_Berkel.pdf

If you consider the information we have :
- it is proved that Weiss was at Humanplasma a few times (isn't proved is what he was doing there... playing cards maybe).
- it is proved that Weiss was out of a world championship because of too high hematocrit (http://velonews.competitor.com/...for-mtb-worlds_13226) but was not positive to EPO, so it is either because he has a high level of hematocrit all the time (possible...) or because he used autologous or homologous blood doping.

With that in mind :
1) He was not controlled positive to EPO but had high hematocrit so he was not playing cards at Humanplasma for some reason didn't pay enough attention to hematocrit level to stay out of the radar. In this case --> guilty thief and liar !!!
2) He was playing cards at Humanplasma and really has a high level of hematocrit and has always had, in which case Mapletop maybe you can ask you son in law to show all actual numbers of his hematocrit from all his tests from when he was 14 (or whenever he started biking) up to now. Of course there can be variations depends on training loads, period of the year, altitude, etc. but with 15 years of results that would give a pretty good idea. Showing these numbers is what I'd do if I wanted to prove I'm not guilty.

Innocent until proven guilty is great... but in this case he looks SO GUILTY that I'd like to see him proves his innocence if he can !

Some of us are lawyers. I said it before: do your son in law a favor and stop it.

Lawyer: "Is there anything else I have to know before we proceed?"
Weiss: "Well, there is this forum..."
Laywer: "Say it ain't so."

Thinking about it: no, keep going. We have more fun and his lawyer gets to do some reading for his money. I wonder what his rate is going to be just to read your postings here.

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CAMPAGNOLO GRAN FONDO NEW YORK

Trinews.at ->reaction

Sadly, very well said, Steve.

WOW! You've simplified the legal system quite dramatically. If all judges were like you, the streets would be roaming with the finest individuals...

From now on, you can only accuse someone who has been caught doing the crime. Nothing else stands. I guess cops won't do much beyond speeding tickets
and red light running.

According to Google Translate

"In a large American Triathlon Forum and reported to the father of Michi Weiss to speak out and exploited the NADA and the arbitral tribunal "politically motivated" and states such as in a banana republic. Then a general abuse of the forum members was followed by him."

Right, everyone else is "dumbly" wrong (as you basically put it), and you know it all (even though you know as little as anyone else). No son in law has ever lied to their in laws. Suspected dopers always tell the truth and never come up with fantastic excuses. ALL those athletes/public/authorities making accusations....yeah they have no clue what they're talking about, but you sure do

I shall rest my case with this. No one on this forum has sufficient knowledge of the facts to the extent of those closest to Micheal Weiss and therefore they are merely speculating and theorizing for their self-pleasure. It has been enlightening to observe and perfectly illustrates the "rush to judgement" mentality by the masses of uninformed.

"Rush to judgment"? Weiss has been one of the most obvious cases I've seen in the last fifteen years of working on doping cases. At least you got my message.

Do yourself a favor and accept the fact that he cheated. As much as I despise doping, it's just sports and, hence, in the bigger scheme of things, a minor crime. I hope Weiss has some sort of education to be able to move on with his life. Yes, he can come back after those two years but it won't ever be the same again. And no, coaching is not a good idea.

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CAMPAGNOLO GRAN FONDO NEW YORK

I think that would be best, seeing as how no one other than Michael truly knows the answer. I hope for your sake, and his, that you are correct. However, I think most of us believe you will unfortunately find out the hard way. These cases rarely have a positive ending

Normally because they started with a positive beginning! :-)

Sorry to ask this question again but what is jr actually being banned from doing?

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You are merely an observer Uli, without any direct access to the facts or proceedings. As an attorney that you claim to be, one would think you'd be an advocate for a modicum of judgemental restraint under the circumstances. Of course that won't happen by those who frequent these forums under the cover of anonymity who postulate on theory and speculation as if they were facts.

I live in Lancaster, PA and have ridden past Floyd Landis's parents house many times. He was "also" innocent.

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ErgDB Erg & PowerAgent workout generator | My blog - special thanks to Kiwami

I know more about this case than you do apparently. Read my previous posting again. I understand it's tough for you to accept what's happening but, again, he e.g. didn't cheat on his wife. Start now with moving on.

I am not anonymous. Takes ten seconds to find out my name if you're slow with google.

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CAMPAGNOLO GRAN FONDO NEW YORK

Hi Mapletop. I viewed this thread develop. Like you said, none of us have the details. We also want a clean sport.

In all of this, what I found interesting was on the front page interview, Michael is saying something along the lines of "his triathlon results will stand". My assumption is that he raced triathlon clean. My understanding is that he's being currently punished for a previous infraction while mountain biking. He did not come out and say, "my tri and mountain bike results will stand". He singled out his tri results as being clean.

I'm a fan of people learning from their mistakes, admitting to them and moving on and getting a second chance. David Millar is a nice example of this. It's peculiar that Michael points to his clean tri results, but steers clear about talking about the mountain bike results.

As a reader of the interview, I almost read an "implied admission". If so, from a PR perspective, he'd be better off just admitting it, sitting out his 2 years, and then becoming an aggressive proponent of racing clean. He's already very vocal about athletes racing clean and not drafting, so this would not be that difficult.

While 2 years seems like a lot right now, he could use the 2 years to actively help turn things towards a cleaner sport by becoming an advocate for it. If he was truly wrongly being framed, he should have gone with "All of my results...." rather than "My triathlon results....". As a reader, I see a big difference between those 2 lines.

Whether he doped or not, I don't care now. Many people make mistakes in life. It's what he does with this opportunity moving forward, and in life, as you probably know, every set back is an opportunity to improve and become a better person. I fully appreciate that being a pro bicyclist in Austia in the early/mid 2000's is a completely different competitive world from pro triathlon. I'm not going to judge him now for what he may have felt pressure to do or not do then.

Best of luck to Michael moving forward. I think he can win over lots of fans and a future living in this sport with the right public communication and actions now. It will serve him well into the future.

I shall rest my case with this. No one on this forum has sufficient knowledge of the facts to the extent of those closest to Micheal Weiss and therefore they are merely speculating and theorizing for their self-pleasure. It has been enlightening to observe and perfectly illustrates the "rush to judgement" mentality by the masses of uninformed.

Look, you are in a bit of a Lions-Den here and, you get what you get when you venture into these forums - and this one is moderately moderated. I am not sure what you were expecting.

I am not sure of all the details myself, so I'll not comment directly on the situation. However, you'll have a hard time here convincing people in the court-of-public-opinion one way or another.

As an aside, you've not helped yourself, by being new here, and breaking a number of forum and online commentary rules.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Dev's post is about the most intelligent thing that has been said on this thread in quite awhile.

If he doped be should be punished. But he's also been racing triathlon for quite some time since these allegations and with his level of success he has quite likely been subject to many drug test during that time and based on the information we have has passed all of those. Based on that he deserves the benefit of the doubt regarding his triathlon results. If he did dope during his mtn biking days, came clean now, served his supension and then returned to racing I would have a ton of respect for him. Anybody who is rational should as well. People make mistakes all the time and its how they respond to them that determines the type of person they are. People appreciate honesty and for the most part a quick to forgive. Look at difference between how Andy Pettitte and Roger Clemens are viewed in baseball.

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Just as an FYI, Ironman was the first to really institute an organized drug testing program, and they did so at the end of 2009. After I won IMAZ in 2009 was the first time I was ever drug tested. Since then, any athlete who races WTC races is subject to both out-of-competition and in-competition testing, though the number of tests obviously depends on the athlete, especially with regards to out-of-competition testing. And it was not until end of 2010 / early 2011 that Ironman tested blood; 2009 through mid-2010, WTC only had provisions for urine testing.

XTerra does not - as far as I know - conduct any drug tests. I can't think of any USAT race (besides the draft legal series for elites) that does drug testing.

This is **NOT** meant to imply anything about the case at hand. It's just meant to address your claim that, "he has quite likely been subject to many drug tests [as a triathlete]." In *MY EXPERIENCE* that is not the case. Granted, each national governing body can choose to test athletes in addition to what Ironman has mandated - for instance, GBTri tests Chrissie Wellington in addition to WTC testing her (when you are tested, you are given a letter indicating who requested the test if it is out of competition). So Tri Austria may have tested Weiss a great deal.

But the history of drug testing in triathlon is pretty sparse, and even with the recent institution of a comprehensive program, it's really only Ironman that is testing, either in or out of competition.

Again, this is not meant to cast any opinion on the subject of Michael Weiss and what he may or may not have done. But, unfortunately, triathlon and drug testing have a very short - and generally yet unproven - history.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

I had the pleasure, with about ~20 other "randomly selected" athletes, of getting tested at AG Nats this summer (urine only).

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I'm a fan of giving a second chance in life. Not sure why they have to come back competing. Someone said it before: we don't know how much of a long term effect these drugs have.

One thing for sure: I would never take Millar as an example. That guy still does what he can get away with.

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Jordan, thanks for information. I think there is a real lack of information about the drug testing process out there and as such a lot of assumptions. As far as Ironman and the WTC is the common practice to pull the athletes out once they finish the race and drug test? I know a couple of pros that have had this happen to them after crossing the finish line at 70.3 events. Without looking up his race schedule for the past few years I'd have to guess he was tested a few times post race. At the same time though if this is the only time that athletes are being tested it would seem quite easy to avoid a positive result since you basically know exactly when you were going to be tested.

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If he doped be should be punished.

As Jordan said it's only very recently in the sport of triathlon (Outside of the ITU circuit) that drug testing has started to be taken seriously. Indeed, it's been pretty sparse and hap-hazard in triathlon up until a year or so ago. Depending on where an athlete resided and what events they focused on there was a very good chance that they could race all year, get great results, win money, have good sponsorship support, and so on, and never get tested! Not making any accusations, here or commenting on this case in particular. It's just that when you leave a barn door open that wide for that long, guess what - something is going to walk through it!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

The problem with speedracer's comment isn't about "Hard Evidence". "Hard Evidence" is not a legal term. There is 1) direct evidence, and 2) circumstantial evidence.

Either could be strong or weak, depending on the evidence. For instance, if the ONLY ISSUE in a case was ID, and the circumstantial evidence consisted of a DNA match at 11 loci, then that's pretty damn strong evidence, but it happens to be circumstantial.

I know basically only what I have read as a cycling enthusiast about this case. It appears, at least, that there is 1) DIRECT EVIDENCE (see above) in the form of eyewitness evidence from Kohl. I don't know Kohl, and have never cross-examined him. He might be a great eyewitness, or a poor one with credibility problems.

It also appears that there is CIRCUMSTANTIAL evidence, in the form of blood values (as I understand some posts - I have never read any primary sources on this). I have no idea whether it is strong or weak.

This debate would be more interesting of more facts were thrown out there, and less ignorance of the law.

 
>There's this misconception that circumstancial evidence is a somehow lesser or weaker form of evidence.[/quote]
A valid correction, and I also incorrectly assumed that a positive doping test was direct evidence, when it's also circumstantial.

But the power of circumstantial evidence exerts itself when there are multiple circumstances which dovetail to present a strong narrative.

A positive doping test is a single piece of circumstantial evidence that is accepted as a standalone evidence strong enough for "conviction." But in that case, this is *explicitly* stated, and the process is (mostly) clear.

But eyewitness testimony presence in a plasma lab, as a standalone piece of evidence is a very different. There is (as far as I know) no explicit statement by WADA that athletes not be in plasma labs. Now if this bit of circumstantial evidence was supported by other bits such as credit card payment to the lab two weeks before IMSG, suspiciously elevated hematocrit in several tests, and independent corroboration of Kohl's story by other eyewitnesses then you're into the wheelhouse of circumstantial evidence - they all dovetail nicely into a story of doping.

But if what's in the article on the main ST page is all there, is, it has a kangaroo court feel to it. Certainly there is *stronger* circumstantial evidence against Lance, since significant payments to a known doping Dr. is at least on part with presence in an plasma lab.

This is different then my *opinion* of Weiss' doping, but opinion is no way to run an anti-doping program.

What Rappstar says is unfortunately true. Up until the end of 2009, a small percentage of IM races had in-competition testing and there was no systematic out-of-competition testing (even if some athletes competing were being tested by their NGB).

There were many instances of athletes showing up to races and either having a great result when there was no doping control or a DNF in case there was control. It was quite easy to predict the DNF's. It was a sad state of affairs and I saw many friends and athletes I coached getting beat by these cheaters.

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Do they actually tell the athletes pre race whether or not there will be doping control at the event? That seems self defeating at best.

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Just to clarify for those that aren't aware - ITU testing has been common place for a long time before WTC / Ironman / 2009.

As an ITU racer that finishes in the top ten, even 5 years ago, it was not un-common to be tested 4 - 6 times out of competition, and then EVERY time finishing on the podium.

At IM events since the inception of this drugs testing program - it's still VERY hit and miss (at best).

SB.

I wouldn't find it peculiar that he points to his clean triathlon results, but doesn't talk about the mtb results, in a triathlon forum interview.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Yes and no. If you announce in advance, at least they DNS or DNF. Much better for everyone than a positive result!

However, the better (richer) the athlete, the more sophisticated his/her doping. Most just laugh at post race controls.

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CAMPAGNOLO GRAN FONDO NEW YORK

Dev's post is about the most intelligent thing that has been said on this thread in quite awhile.

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While I agree as I posted something pretty similar earlier I will say the "I got caught so now I will tell my story and come back to help clean up sport..." is getting old. I think David Millar was granted amunity of sorts because he was the first to do it. But let's continue that tale:

- Tyler Hamilton. Hung out to dry, divorced, depressed, broke and can't even coach really without ST slamming those he coached by extension (ie: Matt Reid)
- Floyd Landis. hung out to dry, divorced, broke but curiously blissful in his new found world
- Di Luca. Admired, revered, rehired, but curiously silent
- Ricco. despised but yet rehired...then fired again
- Nina Kraft. Despised at first but welcomed back, quietly racing. Silent.
- Beke. EPO positive; proved it as an anomoly and welcomed back. We accept the anomoly as fact, given that is how the court decided so yes, should be welcomed back. Now retired.
- Rebekah Keat. Totally ripped off IMO but took her 2 years with a lump and came back to race. Rightfully welcomed back IMO and kicking ass

So, to me what I find fascinating with this "come back and help clean it up" is we as fans pick who we say ok to and who we don't. I think that has to do with the sincerity esposed by the person but to me, the bravest of the bunch is Floyd yet he is thrown to the wolves. I suspect because his attack is usually centered on LA and his sincerity seems more vindictive than supportive of sport. In conclusion, while I would love every doper to come clean and explain the who, the how, the when and how to catch it in future (I don't give a shit about the why, that is obvious) I'm not sure we would welcome it anyway given our history as a fan base.

Anyway, this is an internet forum and no one is going to convince anyone else that Mapletop is right or wrong, or that Weiss did or didn't do it. Frankly, we don't have the facts all in hand as observers. But, this is an internet forum which means an open forum to express opinion. the thing with opinions is, they are not right nor wrong, they are simply one persons perception expressed.

i do hope whatever are the facts for Weiss and his family, they figure it out and get a resolution that is fair and consistent to the facts.

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@rhyspencer

What I want to know is this: why would an endurance athlete go to Humanplasma? It's on par with Lance associated with Michele Ferrari.
Yes, it's circumstantial evidence, but in this case, it's nearly just as good as seeing someone getting an EPO shot...

But, unfortunately, triathlon and drug testing have a very short - and generally yet unproven - history. //

Not exactly true, but if you start your history at the turn of the century then perhaps. The triathlon federation back in the late 80;s did quite a bit of drug testing, as well as many of the big international races. There was out of competition testing too. I retired in 93 as a pro, so i do not know when it all fell apart, but apparently it did. I was pretty sure that Ironman's testing for many years was not really testing, but collecting. I think that is still the case with many races, they collect samples, but whether they get tested or not remains suspect. Although just the collecting phase is somewhat a deterrent, after everyone knows about it, it becomes useless. I think ironman had almost a decade of clean races by their reckoning, but of course once they tested the few samples one year, it was astonishing how many positives there were.

Back to this case. First of all, Kohl is an eyewitness to what he saw, it is not 2nd hand. You may not believe him, that will be up to a court to decide if he is credible, but if he was in the room at the time of the doping, that is pretty bad. Now as we have seen with Lance, that kind of evidence alone does not get you done, at least it has not as of yet in his case. And with the justice system, the more money you have to defend, the more the scales swing to your side, just how it is. I doubt that Michael has much to help him in that regard. The high % of red blood cells is another piece to the puzzle too, but what was it exactly. It has been found that a lot of elite athletes have over 50% naturally, and they can now continue showing a long history of those levels. It is something he would also have to prove. I myself would have had to do this as in my younger days, as i was over 50%, as our own Paul Thomas is too. But I have blood tests before there was even an EPO showing my high values, and to this day every test shows that pattern.

In my opinion, if he did dope years ago and got away with it, most likely he continued to do it. Why, because it works. Dev pointed out that folks should get a 2nd chance, I believe this too, but only if you cop to the cheating already done. If one continues to lie about that, then why would we believe him now? Millar is a great example of this, and he even went into the super hard to beat testing system afterwards to help prove his case, voluntarily. I see nothing like this here, so either he is going to fight to the bitter end like Floyd did, and then at the last minute pretend to do the right thing when no choice is left, or he thinks he can beat this rap and will hold his line. I agree that his statements about winning tris clean is odd, but not if all the evidence is pointing in the direction it seems to. Right now he has a choice to do the right thing if guilty, that i would respect somewhat. If he does it forced at the end of a gun later on, then he is dead in the water for the rest of his career. He can join Floyd selling hot dogs at the Padre games, and then drinking yourself into a stupor to forget what might have been..

Maybe because he wrote a book denying the doping allegations, then comes clean after he collects his profits from that book.

Mapletop you should come to the Lavender Room, we'll get this squared away, the main forum is where all the derelicts and haters reside.

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"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06

I personally think it's very sad that somebody has to resort to cheating in order to compete at a high level. A lot of great mountain bikers are us "bigger guys" Tall with a lot of power output. To get more power, train more it's simple, but there's always the easy way out. I think it really comes down to the easy way out, rather than be patient for the results of those workouts to come there's a "magic trick" in order to get out of it. While genetics are predisposed there is a lot an athlete can do to improve on those genetics cleanly. I've seen individuals with a vo2 max of 50, kill me in races, because they simply are willing to suffer and have done so for a long while, until they finally had that breakthrough. I haven't followed Michi's career but it might come down to timing, for example an athlete really has 10 years of hard efforts to reach an olympic level. Genetics and other factors can really influence the amount of time needed, and some athletes rise very quickly depending on those factors. I will always remember my teammates who showed up freshmen year of cross country and absolutely dominated me the entire season, having never run prior to the first practice. I think during my life I've learned the absolute importance of hard work, and consistency. Some athletes if they were on track for the olympics/paychecks/survival at the high ranks might not have the time to justify this hard work, it's a cowards way out. I personally get where they're coming from because it sucks losing, but it doesn't excuse it in any way. This is where I lose respect for athletes who do resort to cheating, it's not fair to those who have put in the time/effort, and the suffering that is really required to race at the high levels.

A very interesting read is this thread. There's much that can be said on either side of the questions raised here. These last few concering Kohl as an eyewitness are troubling though. A post earlier on in this thread, I think by Weiss' father-in-law, stated Kohl failed to show up at some hearings to testify against Weiss. If that was indeed the case, I for one, would question the credibility of his accusations.

So does this mean he's not banned from Xterra competition or that his WC will not be revoked?

these times Humanplasma was known for other things than doping. Later on, when Humanplasma was well known among athletes for the procedures offered they urged the athletes and their manager (Matschiner, who confessed and wrote a book about it) set up the hardware at other places (Matschiners home and later somewhere in Hungary when I recall correctly). Authorities found invoices in Matschiners records that charged Weiss for creating training plans http://sport.oe24.at/...chster-Bombe/1509099 later on.

and... Maybe because he funded his appeal process on goodwill donations then comes clean after that failed

What Rappstar says is unfortunately true. Up until the end of 2009, a small percentage of IM races had in-competition testing and there was no systematic out-of-competition testing (even if some athletes competing were being tested by their NGB).

Indeed, Paulo.

It often comes as a surprise to many triathletes that outside of the ITU races, there has been very little testing done in almost all other triathlon races around thew world, and the triathletes that take part in these races. Case in point, and again, not to make a judgment about this particular situation, but I have my doubts if there is any testing in the Xterra triathlons. Perhaps at their "World Championship" in Maui, but that may be it. Wading into this issue peripherally, just as a question of interest, was there any testing at the Xterra Maui this year?

This does vary from country to country, but in many countries if an athlete is not in the ITU program in that country, then their is a very good chance that they'll never get tested - in races or in out-of-competition testing. As I said, there are all kinds of elite/pro level triathletes, who win money at races, place well, have generous sponsorship packages etc . . . who have never been tested in their whole race career! Many athletes who focused exclusively on the IM races fell into this camp. This is why the WTC, who I note is not a sports governing body, but a privately run and owned, event management and marketing business, moved to try and start to at least, close this very wide open door for their events, by setting up their own testing process. It's an admirable move on the WTC's part, but it does make one wonder if the sport of triathlon would be better served in this area if everyone was under the same umbrella than the yard-sale it is right now!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I think it would be better, but I can't see where the money is going to come from. Random drug testing where you send someone to someones home is big bucks. Even if a Pro is "subject" to randon testing it wont be a deterent if 3 guys a year get tested.

I know some masters cyclists have been tested and banned in the last couple of years, but if I go to the Dr and he prescribes medicine for a cold I wouldn't check to see f its legal. The chances of my getting tested at a race are just too low to bother.

Unless every pro gets rested at least 1x a year or so I think most dirty athletes will take their chances.

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Styrrell

Well said, fully agree.

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CAMPAGNOLO GRAN FONDO NEW YORK

I was in Maui for the XTERRA World Champs and I'm almost positive there was no testing.

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Shawn
TORRE Consulting Services, LLC
http://www.TORREcs.com

WTC's OOC schedule varies with the athlete. I was tested three times OOC this year. Some athletes are tested more. Not every athlete who races is part of the WTC testing pool; they used to have the athletes in the pool listed, but I can't find it - or they've taken it down. It was ~75 athletes (and there are about 500+ athletes with WTC licenses).

Anyway, here is the PDF with the # of OOC tests: http://c23038.r38.cf1.rackcdn.com/...oping-Statistics.pdf

Based off my recollection of the approximate number of athletes, it appears ~3/year is relatively standard for OOC (112 tests so far OOC this year).

More info here: http://ironmanpromembership.com/anti-doping/

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Well, you can't be positive if there is no testing ;-)

Maybe true if the triathlon world was only North America. Many European federations have had their top long course athletes in out of competition testing programs for quite a long time. I was part of one between 1998 and 2009 for example, without being a high profile athlete at all obviously. That being said implementing testing programs doesn't solve any problems by itself if the testing is not sufficient. Bernhard Kohl admitted only 2 out of 100 doping tests he went through while doping was positive so it's safe to say that there are ways to cheat the system. And obviously if the average triathlete within a testing program is tested only 3 times/year it's not nearly enough to prove anyone is clean.

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BA coaching http://www.bjornandersson.se

Mapletop - can you explain the motivation for over-turning the original finding? Don't say "political" because that is not specific. What's the reasoning for this injustice? Who benefits? Does someone have a personal grudge? Give us something.

I'd like to have that answer with certitude, but it resides with a group of individuals in Austria. I can say this however, there is overhwelming political pressure everywhere to root out unlawful conduct in sport, and rightfully so. It comes as no surprise for political motivations to be aligned with economic interests as well, you needn't look too far in our own country to see that. Nevertheless, overzealous motivations are known to blur objectivity and fairness, that's a fact of inescapable reality when it comes to this topic. You will beleive what you want to beleive, that too is an inescapable truth.

With that answer you should go into politics...Spoken like a true politician.....

Yet, he's in insurance.

Judging from his website, Jeff sounds like a really nice guy who does a lot of good things in and for his community. I hope he doesn't take all this too hard.

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My apology for providing a response to a question that doesn't coincide with the judgements you've likely resigned yourself to or just can't comprehend.

The same may be said of you Uli judging from your Facebook page but I beleive insurance agent is still higher on the sh*t list of professions than lawyers and politicians.I'll take insurance over those anyday.

Can you please point to a post I made that reflected one way or the other?....I stated that in my post because you were asked a question and reading your response seemed not to give any difinitive answer.

Mr.Kenney, your post was purposefully cynical and sarcastic rather than intellectual or sincere in it's rebuke. Pretty telling really.

So I hear! Kind of glad I found my true vocation but the education still is useful (and I'm particularly NOT talking about this case).

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On that, we have common ground.

I WAS giving you the benefit of the doubt... but with that non-answer to a clear and direct question, take your ball and go home

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"if you chose it, it's not really pain"

OK
..but you did not answer the question, thus my reply. You decided to ramble........I have no animosity torward you or your family.....I wish Happy Holidays,,truly

Jeez d-elvis, you too have a challenge with comprehending the written word? What are we coming to?

Nevertheless, overzealous motivations are known to blur objectivity and fairness, that's a fact of inescapable reality when it comes to this topic.

Word. Sing it from The Mountain.

If you're going to fuck with someones career, you had better catch them in the act.

This summer a doctor told me he thought I was doping because my testosterone levels were off the chart and he said "what are you on?" I told him I'm out in the Sun 12 hours a day.....the Vitamin D connection....totally natural.

Endurance sports are relatively young......there are things the experts do not yet understand about how eating certain combinations of foods and/or 'reacting/adapting' to an environment might profile one as a doper....even though everything is perfectly natural, but only because the 'experts' cannot yet explain things.

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**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**

It seems to me that you have come to this forum in order to insult anyone who does not immediately agree with everything you say.

If you were my father-in-law, I would be on the phone telling you to stop posting and shut the fuck up.

You likely did not (intentionally) write the bolded words about yourself, but they sure seem to apply to you based on your writings in this thread. In any event, I don't get your point. Are you saying unequuivocally that your son-in-law did not do what he is alleged to have done? Or are you saying that there isn't sufficient proof that he did what he is alleged to have done?

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Mike Sparks


I have competed well, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.

Finally, someone who can comprehend the written word, thank you Mojozenmaster, and well said.

Let's be clear: You came on here to defend someone convicted in a semi-judicial process. The evidence against the guy is widely known and published in several places. You claim a politically motivated conspiracy. When asked to explain further you have nothing. No evidence. Just vague hand waving.

Are you really surprised that only the crazies on this forum are lining up on your side?

What is a lot of elite athletes in terms of percentage of elite athlete population? There were lots of tests and research to determine what the hematocrit (HCT) level should be and lots of the research involved retrospective analysis of blood tests done prior to the drug EPO being introduced (to find known clean samples). In Cycling- if you truly have a higher hematacrit than the imposed level 50% limit (which is actually 51% to give the athlete/testing equipment another benefit of procedure) , you can actually apply for a naturally higher HCT level exemption- that provides you a higher level before you will test positive. You just have to prove it to the UCI with various longitudinal tests and you can get your exemption. Very few cyclists actually have this exemption.... which proves the level is where it should be. Jonathan Vaughters- when he raced, did have a naturally higher HCT exemption- however, he lived at higher altitude in Colorado.


Not sure what Triathlon does- and from this thread, it seems triathlon doesn't do much to deter dopers and the tests they currently do is not for catching cheats, but is more for placating owners, sponsors, media, and others that have financial interests in the sport- which allows all of them to promote 'clean sport'.

My apology for providing a response to a question that doesn't coincide with the judgements you've likely resigned yourself to or just can't comprehend.


I just have to say that you come on this forum, make very vague accusations and then attack anyone who doesn't believe you. This response is very typical but you just continue to say there is "politics" involved with "some individuals" and that everyone here has already made up their mind or can't comprehend you. Maybe we can't comprehend because you are not actually saying anything, just making blanket statements.


It's very strange and for the life of me I can't figure out what you are trying to accomplish.

Mr Kohl did not show up at the advise of his lawyers.

You don't need to have been to law school to figure out why that is sound advice.

Your word-smithing is kind of lame.

I'll bet right now that your "evidence" is speculation.......unless you reply with it.......

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**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**

Re In vs. Out of Competition testing...

A few of us talked about this at IMCozumel. I do not know if there was testing, I think maybe there was. But, in regards to everyone being subject to out of comp testing...is this true, or is it only those who are on the published list?

http://ironmanpromembership.com/anti-doping/rtp/

I ask because on one hand it seems like an effort has been made, but on the other it almost seems like if you are not on the list, you can assume that you will only be tested around competition. I just did a little bit of reading, and it seems that is the case. Of course, they can add anyone to that list, but if the list only contains 50-80 athletes...what about the hundreds of others. When you get down to it, in competition testing is really a bit of an IQ test...kind of like a scheduled annual physical drug test as part of a job. I am just bringing this up as a point of conversation between myself and more than 1 or 2 of our fellow professionals.

What does a test cost? Is it reasonable for every single athlete who pays the WTC fee for professionals to be subject to $750/cost of test number of tests per year? That, to me, certainly seems like at least a bit of a deterrent.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

What is a lot of elite athletes in terms of percentage of elite athlete population? //

I don't know the exact number, not sure anyone does. I know i would have been one, and i know pauly has tested at 51% at sea level. Mine was at altitude. It just makes sense that folks that have risen to the top of endurance sports without help, would also have values much higher than the general population. Just for fun I did a little research on peoples that live at high altitudes, and there was one group where the average male had a 59% HCT and the women were at 50%. It was just to satisfy my curiosity that there were many external conditions that could affect HCT besides doping, and by a lot. It took awhile, but the powers to be also discovered this, and thus they had to change the rule to suit this new evidence. If even just a few(i presume it is more than just a few), the rule needed to be changed so as not to ruin peoples careers for having the good genetics that got them to the top. Remember that before this change, you were automatically considered doped if above 50%.

As for triathlon testing, I tend to agree with you outside of ITU racing. Even in ITU, there was some funny business in the beginning, not sure if that has all been worked out now. Triathlon started very early in testing pros, and it was the pros that insisted upon it. But somewhere along the way it went off the rails, and is just now beginning to get back on track. Many NGB's do good testing, and some races. Far from what needs to be done, but better than the nothing that was going on for a long time.

Technically you werent considered to be doped if you were over 50%, you couldn't race for "health" reasons. I don't think anyone got 2 year bans.

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Styrrell

perhaps I should write in pink.

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TriRaceBook.com
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Hawaii Qualification Analysis

If you're going to fuck with someones career, you had better catch them in the act.

And all this time I thought you did not like Landis (before he confessed at least) because he was not caught in the act..................Remember all those 60 minute threads
Edit....guess that was Hamilton...my bad

The folly in all of this is this is that it denegrates the sports through myth.....a sport that people supposedly care for and want to advance but are far too comfortable demonizing.

Something is not right here.

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**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**

I *believe* OOC is only for athletes on the list. I count 43names. I don't remember the exact numbers, but I think to register and test "regularly" an athlete for urine only, it's about $5,000/year. So that's ~$200,000. I don't know the cost for maintaining a blood passport, which Ironman does now, but I believe it is significantly more.

It is NOT reasonable for every athlete to be tested at 750/year. That much I know.

But the detailed questions of finance would be better directed to Kate M or Paula or Heather @ WTC. I've had discussions with Paula and Kate about the program, but not enough to reply with firm answers on anything other than $750 wouldn't even cover the cost of a single OOC test for urine only. That much I do know; or, rather, that was what was conveyed to me; I do not have any personal first hand knowledge about the cost of WADA-approved testing.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Perfection of thought and groundbreaking philosophical insight, such as I offer here, should never be taken for granted

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**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**

While that may in fact be plausible, that's not exactly germane to this particular case. Again, in an attempt to keep what at least appear to be the clear FACTS of this case, Michael Weiss *never* failed a drug test. The entirety of the case - as far as I know from reading the various articles on the topic - is based upon circumstantial evidence. It's evidence that some find compelling and that others do not. But this particular case is not about the veracity of drug tests, although that's actually a much more interesting subject, as there is certainly a significant amount of debate on that very topic that goes generally unreported by the sporting media. So in this case, your "combinations of foods and/or..." is not actually relevant. It wouldn't kill you to read the articles on the topics you are posting about you know. But I really bring this up because whatever you believe, I think it ought to be based upon the actual facts of the case.

Right now, unless some new information either comes to light or is made public, Weiss will either be convicted based off of circumstantial evidence that is found to be compelling or exonerated in light of circumstantial evidence that was found not be compelling. What you think about that state of affairs is pretty clearly a matter of strong personal opinion. But this hasn't (yet) become a case of a vanishing twin or Chimera syndrome or Spanish beef or...

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

"my" evidence is what's been published in velonews and the german publications listed. It's not definitive, but it's a damn sight more convincing than "there's a conspiracy, but I can't tell you anything about it."

There's also his competitors, and their willingness to speak out about it publicly, that counts for something. Especially since pro triathletes are not known accusing their competitors of cheating in general, nor doping specifically.

 

I thought the evidence was that kohl saw Weiss doping. Or are you saying that kohl says he just saw him at the doping location?

That's direct evidence.

Again, doesn't mean it's true, or false.

I guess that's the opinion part. It seems to be *factual* that he was at Humanplasma; I *believe* Weiss said he went, but that he did not actually receive any treatment. I think there are a range of plausible explanations for that ranging from, "I was considering doing it, but then decided I couldn't" to "I was simply getting some advice on keeping iron levels up." I assume (dangerous, I know) that this place must have some legitimate function besides helping athletes cheat...

And I think Kohl has said that he saw him dope, but that seems a bit harder to put in the "fact" column since it seems uncorroborated. But I am not a lawyer. And I certainly don't know firsthand any details. So if you are a lawyer and are saying that Kohl saying he saw him dope is direct evidence, then I apologize for misspeaking.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

His case has been looming over the triathlon scene for far too long. It was and is detrimental for the sport.

My suggestion (FWIW !):

1. Come clean regarding his MTB career.

"I did it back then, it was dumb and I pay for it now with the suspension."

2. Stand firm in saying that he never took drugs as a triathlete.

That looks like the easy part because he never got tested positive or was seen at dodgy institutions during that time. However, I wouldn't believe him and many others wouldn't. He could ignore that but it just won't go away. Ask the Nina Krafts. Getting sponsors will be harder. So what to do? I still believe that there is a way to be transparent and more outspoken about drugs. There has to be a better way than just throwing up your arms saying "I never got tested positive." He knows first hand what's happening. He can tell the story. He can put his monthly blood test results online. Use his two years off racing to talk at club meetings, events etc. Work closely with NADA to help them identify where to look. It takes a tremendous amount if criminal energy to do all that and still take drugs.

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CAMPAGNOLO GRAN FONDO NEW YORK

So...if you will allow me to translate: "I don't really have any specific information why certain individuals or governing body's have it out for my son-in-law. He has professed his innocence and we support him so there must be something going on behind the scenes that we are not aware of."

I can certainly understand your take on the situation and wish you all the best. Personally, I don't know anything about MW or the situation. Public opinion doesn't really matter at the end of the day so my advice is don't get twisted up in a knot over this on an internet forum. ;)

Uli,

The problem with all of this and not just this case, is that that it's reached the point that the general public really does not know who to believe anymore.

Whether an athlete has a positive test or their is just circumstantial evidence and rumors swirling around, they will deny, deny, deny - and so will their circle of friends. If there is a positive test - they'll typically claim that their was a break-down in the testing protocol, claim that it's some form of error, and still deny they did anything wrong. Indeed, these errors and mistakes do happen and this has proven to be the case - so even the "system" is not perfect or 100% right all the time.

The only time that credibility gets re-established is in the rare cases when, there is a postive test, and the athlete comes forward, of their own will, other than outing of the test itself, and admits that they did what they did and take their lumps. This seemed to be the case with David Millar.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Just one more reason to make an effort from his part.


So does he but maybe he changes his mind.


Well, it's not "of their own will" because he needed to get tested positive first, otherwise he would have kept going (Millar confirmed that).

BUT: why do like everyone else does? Why not try something new? There is enough evidence out there to believe that Weiss is just the tip of iceberg. I could go on for pages and name you names but I'm not allowed to.

Weiss should see his failure as a chance to make things right and help fighting the cheaters. I personally believe that it actually is his only chance to ever be fully happy in the sport again whether he ultimately gets away without a sentence or not. Because he's done. He's a "doper" in the public opinion. And, IMHO, rightfully so. Hence, focusing on looking forward, standing up and showing character is his best and only true way forward. And that's particularly true here in America where people are more willing than almost anywhere else to give people another chance.

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CAMPAGNOLO GRAN FONDO NEW YORK