Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Interesting article against brick workouts
Quote | Reply
Interesting article against brick workouts:

http://goo.gl/PP8fD

What do you think?

Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook

--
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Most of the folks on here "in-the-know" have been saying this for years.
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
When I first started out in Tri, about 12 years ago, I did find bricks to be a useful way to prepare me for the unfamiliar shock of T2--especially since I was just doing sprints back then and needed to run well pretty quickly.

After 113 triathlons in total and 10-15 each year I now find bricks to be of negligible value. I gear down about a mile from T2 and try to spin a bit and stand up and stretch my calves. When I leave T2 I try to take short quick strides and pump my arms until I settle in, which I find happens within 100 or maybe 200 yards. I guess my body is used to it now.

A lot of my races these days are LC races and if I take a bit longer to settle in on the run its no big deal--I need to hold back in the beginning of a LC run anyways. So much of my training when I'm in LC mode is distance oriented that there is real value for me to run faster than race pace in my runs whenever I can--this is harder to do right after a bike--I like to either run before I bike or separate them by several hours so I can run better--I think this helps me more than a brick would. I get plenty of experience running on tired legs when I'm in IM training so don't feel I need a brick to get that. I also find I tend to be a bit dehydrated after a (long) bike and running in that state means a slow run.

I don't think bricks lead to more injuries (because you tend to run slow) so if you like em go for it. I personally don't like them--I'd rather ride hard. and then latter run hard--so I don't do them.

Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
i remember the first time i did a brick, it was off the bike in my first tri, an OLY distance. my legs were felt weird for about 2 mins and things turned normal.

for triathletes, bricks are like speed work outs, likely only useful for the very elite of the field in shorter distances.
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
i don't do bricks for the 'brick' workout. i do them (mostly when i'm stuck indoors) because i can only ride for so long on a trainer.

i do a hard bike workout for an hour, then i hop on the treadmill for my usual mileage. my pace on the treadmill is quite similiar to my pace that i would run without the hard ride. so i'm not entirely sold on the 'of no value' some place on it. but i'm not sold on "bricks" being a needed element in training. i think of it as using my time wisely....... as time is limited.


Tim
Last edited by: TimAndrus: Oct 27, 11 10:01
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [TimAndrus] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I think combining a trainer ride and a tready workout makes a lot of sense from a time standpoint--especially at night or during the winter. For me, these tend to be shorter workouts so after a minute or two on the treadie my legs are flushed out--even if my trainer ride was intense. I do these because my legs really aren't tired (momentarily fatigued yes) and I'm trying to squeeze another run w/o in that week....

Where bricks seem to be of less value to me is if I do a 4-7 hour bike ride and then right away head out for an hour run, or something of that nature. I think I get more value (and I like it a ton more--and hey, I'm really old now so i try to do things I enjoy more) if I run a few hours latter after I'm rested and rehydrated....

Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
You certainly don't want the majority of your runs to be brick workouts.

and if you race often you probably don't need to ever do them, or only do a couple just before a race.

But if you race only a couple times a year, you need to do some to figure out what sort of pace you can handle, if your eating and drinking plan is working for you, are you having cramping issues etc etc.

I don't do them regularly but, for instance, before my half iron this summer I would do a short 3 mile run after my long bike ride each week.

this gives you some feedback on if you are fit enough to bike at a given pace and still run afterwards. good stuff to know =)



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I only did two last year: 1 during a local 70.3 and another during IMC. I ran a 7:00min/mile for my 70.3, but about a 9:00min/mile for IMC due to bonking on my bike and some other prep issues (it was my first 140.6). The reason I don't do them is I don't necessarily see a point. As one poster already stated, it only takes a couple minutes, or mile, to have your legs adjust and acclimate to running. I might incorporate some here or there next season, but I won't build my schedule around them.
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [TriZag] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
jackmott wrote:
maybe if you had done some pre IM you would have figured out how to not bonk? =)
x2.

Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
At leasat Rich did come out and say that for time crunched athletes there was a sensible application for the brick workout, albeit lacking in training value beyond saving time (in his opinion).

I often program them into athlete's plans for that reason alone (time issues) because many working blokes can't do two-a-days and keep their career and family intact over the long haul. If they get a training benefit out of it that's great, if they get to see their kids grow up and don't piss off their wife and/or their boss then even better!

I don't think this debate will ever be settled once and for all, there will always be a group of folks who think only fools do bricks and others why say only idiots don't.

Can anyone actually link to REAL research that confirms/denies any of what Rich posted?

Dave


Dave Stark
dreamcatcher@astound.net
USAC & USAT level 2 certified coach
Last edited by: karma: Oct 27, 11 16:15
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
"But if you race only a couple times a year, you need to do some to figure out what sort of pace you can handle, if your eating and drinking plan is working for you, are you having cramping issues etc etc."

Jack,
Did you read the article? They cover this.

Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [SeasonsChange] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
SeasonsChange wrote:
i remember the first time i did a brick, it was off the bike in my first tri, an OLY distance. my legs were felt weird for about 2 mins and things turned normal.


for triathletes, bricks are like speed work outs, likely only useful for the very elite of the field in shorter distances.


I think the first part of this, IMO, is the only real reason to do bricks. Getting used to that feeling. For some it may last 2 minutes, others it may last 20minutes, others it may last an hour. It all depends on the race, the fitness of the individual (and genetics), and the experience of the individual. For me, it usually lasts about 5-8min, depending on the race distance and time of year

I find very short bricks to be useful early in the season to remind my body that the shock of having to stand up straight and use different muscles after being on the bike Xhrs is OK- it's like a warm-up WAY before the event, so my body isn't totally shocked come race day.

As for fitness? I agree with the article.

____________________________________________________
I don't suffer from insanity; I enjoy every minute of it--
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Read the article and I suspected that it would draw some discussion:

I agree with it in principal. Back in the early days we did not do a lot of brick workouts, but we raced a ton - like every weekend for long stretches! Do that a lot and you figure out how to run off the bike!

These days however, the frequency of athletes racing seems to be way down and many train all season or year long for one big race. As an aside, I don't understand this approach, but in this situation I would think that some brick workouts would be very helpful and in the article Rich does say that this is the case.

So really nothing new, but I am sure some will have more extreme views.


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
Last edited by: Fleck: Oct 27, 11 10:47
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I don't think it's anything radically new. For me, bricks have always been about mental preparation, not physical preparation. I'll do some a few weeks out from a race just to get a feel for what my sustainable pace feels like on tired legs so I avoid going out too hard. We have a practice duathlon series in the spring which also helps for this.
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Agree...to an extent. I bonked before I got off the bike and it was due to not having enough calories when I was riding, something I would have learned by doing longer rides more frequently. In that particular situation, doing a couple longer bricks would have helped me figure that out prior to the race, yes. That is why I plan on doing a couple next season - for nutritional purposes only, not leg acclimation.
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
DarkSpeedWorks wrote:

What do you think?

I think it's funny EN equates selling cookie-cutter training plans to coaching. Other than that, unless that article is from 2004, it's not really very innovative.

-

The Triathlon Squad

Like us on Facebook!!!
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Paulo Sousa] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
2004, ha! We knew this is 1985. There is really nothing wrong with the occasional brick, probably does not hurt. More like a long workout. But as stated, once you have a bunch of real races under your belt, you pretty much know what to expect, and doing a slower version of it in workout does not help you deal with it. Train fast to race fast, pretty much been around since the beginning of the sport.
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Paulo Sousa] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Fair enough but there are probably some folks on ST who haven't been in Tri since 2004 and this might be useful information to them. I get asked this question frequently by newer triathletes and I think the discussion about where Bricks might be of value and where they might not be is helpful for many folks. Especially considering that the vast majority of triathletes either can't afford or are not interested (for whatever reason) in paying for a coach or a coaching program.

Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Fleck wrote:
Read the article and I suspected that it would draw some discussion:

I agree with it in principal. Back in the early days we did not do a lot of brick workouts, but we raced a ton - like every weekend for long stretches! Do that a lot and you figure out how to run off the bike!

These days however, the frequency of athletes racing seems to be way down and many train all season or year long for one big race. As an aside, I don't understand this approach, but in this situation I would think that some brick workouts would be very helpful and in the article Rich does say that this is the case.

interesting you mention this... I raced 5 times in six weeks this year, and the last 2 races of that stretch and the remainder of races of the season I noticed the difference of the heavy leg feeling, it was basically non existing as time went on.... im assuming from the stretch of lots of racing and the adaptation of the 'brick' type workout associated.... one race I didnt even notice the 'heavy leg' feeling... as a norm i dont do brick workouts, maybe once or twice a year. I have let the racing take care of that.

_________________________________________________
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [kdw] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I was just agreeing

kdw wrote:
"But if you race only a couple times a year, you need to do some to figure out what sort of pace you can handle, if your eating and drinking plan is working for you, are you having cramping issues etc etc."

Jack,
Did you read the article? They cover this.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [monty] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
monty wrote:
2004, ha! We knew this is 1985. There is really nothing wrong with the occasional brick, probably does not hurt. More like a long workout. But as stated, once you have a bunch of real races under your belt, you pretty much know what to expect, and doing a slower version of it in workout does not help you deal with it. Train fast to race fast, pretty much been around since the beginning of the sport.

Probably true. But when I started coaching, and to this day, most triathlon programs were very brick-heavy. It took me a while to figure it out, on account of all the misinformation.

-

The Triathlon Squad

Like us on Facebook!!!
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Well, I don't think the article is wrong- it's just misleading. I've always thought that the reason to do bricks is not some critical physical development that you get out of it, but that it prepares you 'mentally' to know what it feels like to move from cycling to running.

it is interesting that the article attributes poor run performance to not just "too hard on the bike", but going out too hard early on the bike. What they're saying is- get in a good warm-up early in the leg, before you push it. This, in retrospect, has been my experience as well, and seems like good advice.
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [uncle_evan] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
interesting you mention this... I raced 5 times in six weeks this year, and the last 2 races of that stretch and the remainder of races of the season I noticed the difference of the heavy leg feeling, it was basically non existing as time went on.... im assuming from the stretch of lots of racing and the adaptation of the 'brick' type workout associated.... one race I didnt even notice the 'heavy leg' feeling... as a norm i dont do brick workouts, maybe once or twice a year. I have let the racing take care of that.

It's simple . . . race more!

I find this current and modern-triathlete aversion to racing odd. Now I know there will be those that will chime in here and say, "Steve it's way to expensive to race a lot" and I guess if your only definition of a "race" is a 70.3 event, then yes, that will get expensive. But there are all kinds of other less expensive race options to look at and do.







Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [uncle_evan] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
To paraphrase a comment about this article I made on Facebook, I think running well off the bike is more a function of run frequency overall rather than brick workouts per se. If you only run 3-4x a week and one of them is a brick, you might be better off running 5-6 times per week, no bricks. The more often you run during a training week, the more you are used to it feeling differently depending on how (un)recovered you are.

In terms of bricks and time management, I still bike and run back to back, only I run first. Run quality is higher, and bike rarely suffers.
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Endurance Nation knows better than Crowie and Rinnie. Wow.

This article is flat out wrong.

Anytime you learn something it gets wired into the brain. When you BRICK it becomes a single event to the brain and you get better at it the more you do it. The more you Bike then Run immediately after, the more efficient and seamless it will become.

Granted many atheletes go out too fast at the beginning of a Bike/ Run during a race; but that has nothing to do with BRICK'ing during training.
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [BT_DreamChaser] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Didn't Crowie run several mile repeats at 5:20-6:00 min pace after a long bike (100+ miles) during his build-up for Kona?


Bruce
ALBOPADS XTERRAWETSUITS NEWTON OAKLEY FIZIK GARMIN ROTOR COMPUTRAINER QUARQ HONEYSTINGER
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [BT_DreamChaser] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
BT_DreamChaser wrote:
Endurance Nation knows better than Crowie and Rinnie. Wow.

This article is flat out wrong.

Anytime you learn something it gets wired into the brain. When you BRICK it becomes a single event to the brain and you get better at it the more you do it. The more you Bike then Run immediately after, the more efficient and seamless it will become.

Granted many atheletes go out too fast at the beginning of a Bike/ Run during a race; but that has nothing to do with BRICK'ing during training.

Brick away, my friend. The more you brick, the more you practice poor quality running. The human brain (at least for most of us) is not a vacant storage locker that requires you to stuff it to the point of overflow before you recognize what's in there. It's a very sophisticated I/O system. Run a single brick, and you will experience all of the physical and mental stimulation required to fully comprehend running off the bike. The brain-body condition is satisfied in one shot (though the 1-2x per season reminder is of some value before each race season). Furthermore, if you're racing at a reasonable effort, there will always be a period of discomfort coming out of T2. Bricks aren't going to change that.

The only way to get better at running off the bike is to learn effective bike pacing and become a stronger runner. Neither of those activities require bricks in order to be accomplished. As I said before, brick running is nothing more than poor quality running.

"The right to party is a battle we have fought, but we'll surrender and go Amish... NOT!" -Wayne Campbell
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [antonbp] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
antonbp wrote:
Didn't Crowie run several mile repeats at 5:20-6:00 min pace after a long bike (100+ miles) during his build-up for Kona?

maybe, but is that why he won? i thought it was the shiv?

_________________________________________________
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I think it's bought to us by the same people that said to stop swimming over the winter.
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [fefe] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
fefe wrote:
To paraphrase a comment about this article I made on Facebook, I think running well off the bike is more a function of run frequency overall rather than brick workouts per se. If you only run 3-4x a week and one of them is a brick, you might be better off running 5-6 times per week, no bricks. The more often you run during a training week, the more you are used to it feeling differently depending on how (un)recovered you are.

In terms of bricks and time management, I still bike and run back to back, only I run first. Run quality is higher, and bike rarely suffers.

I agree. But just as you, end up doing a number of "bricks" throughout the week. But I'm generally always running first if it's supposed to have any quality work within the run. IE, run before I swim. It's a time management thing for me and that's all it is.

To run better, you need to run more and more often. Specificity, stupid.

"One Line Robert"
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [burnman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
"As I said before, brick running is nothing more than poor quality running."

I guess you have the Data from a peer reviewed study to back that up?
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I do brick workouts for the mental reminder that my running legs will show up. But even then the run is short. 1-2 a season I do a longer brick (run about 1 hour off a 5-6 hour bike) to help me test my bike nutrition. And to help me dial in the run pace I want to start the run at. For an IM, I always try to run about :30 slower than my goal pace. This means I usually run about goal pace because it's hard to run slow at the beginning, but after practicing it a couple times, I can usually make the mental notes I need to slow down.

There are reasons to do a brick run, but learning to run on tired legs is not one of them. Learning you can run on tired legs might be one. But that only takes a couple minutes to do.
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [wsrobert] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
"To run better, you need to run more and more often. Specificity, stupid."

So wouldn't it follow - If you want to run faster off the bike you need to practice running faster off the bike? Specificity!
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Ah, Endurance Nation. Never be afraid to give bad advice based on poor anecdotal evidence. First, they advise no swimming in the offseason. Now, no bricks.

If you want to read a REALLY interesting article on the PRECISE value of brick workouts - and why they are REALLY important - read the AIS study on lower-leg muscle activation during "normal" running vs. running off the bike. Then read the section of the conclusion where they explicitly state that running off the bike in training reduces the time it takes for your body to start firing your lower leg muscles "as normal" (typically, there is some residual carryover where your body is "confused" and still fires the muscles as if you were cycling).

But don't let actual, practical evidence get in the way of what a couple of hack "coaches" (using the term loosely) think.

Of course, rather than reading ANY study at all, you can think about one simple concept - specificity. Running off the bike is specific training for triathlon. Therefore, it is going to make you a better triathlete. But of course, that doesn't get anyone talking about your "articles."

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [burnman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
burnman wrote:
BT_DreamChaser wrote:
Endurance Nation knows better than Crowie and Rinnie. Wow.

This article is flat out wrong.

Anytime you learn something it gets wired into the brain. When you BRICK it becomes a single event to the brain and you get better at it the more you do it. The more you Bike then Run immediately after, the more efficient and seamless it will become.

Granted many atheletes go out too fast at the beginning of a Bike/ Run during a race; but that has nothing to do with BRICK'ing during training.


Brick away, my friend. The more you brick, the more you practice poor quality running. The human brain (at least for most of us) is not a vacant storage locker that requires you to stuff it to the point of overflow before you recognize what's in there. It's a very sophisticated I/O system. Run a single brick, and you will experience all of the physical and mental stimulation required to fully comprehend running off the bike. The brain-body condition is satisfied in one shot (though the 1-2x per season reminder is of some value before each race season). Furthermore, if you're racing at a reasonable effort, there will always be a period of discomfort coming out of T2. Bricks aren't going to change that.

The only way to get better at running off the bike is to learn effective bike pacing and become a stronger runner. Neither of those activities require bricks in order to be accomplished. As I said before, brick running is nothing more than poor quality running.

100% wrong. The brain-body condition is never-ever satisfied with one shot. The brain needs constant repitition for something to be learned and for an action to become more efficient. This is why professional golfers still work on their swings after decades of playing. The best veteran hockey players are the ones who are last off the ice at practice, practicing shot after shot after shot. The more you BRICK the more efficient you will become at running off the Bike; which is why Craig Alexander after 20 years of triathlon racing still does it.

Running fresh and independent of the Bike is important too. However, Running off the Bike is also very important to continually teach the body to run with different muscle groups already fatigued. Running off the Bike teaches us how we should pace on the Bike. Running off the Bike teaches our bodies how to use internal fuel supplies more efficiently simply because the endurance of the session becomes elongated by the fact another activity has been added; and that activity includes the body using different systems. Running off the Bike teaches us countless physical and mental strategies that we will become better at the more we do it. Because the more we do something, the better we naturally become at it. And the brain, like most people, is stubborn and needs repetition before something truly sinks in.
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [xtremrun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
xtremrun wrote:
"As I said before, brick running is nothing more than poor quality running."

I guess you have the Data from a peer reviewed study to back that up?

I don't need a peer reviewed study to tell me that running on tired, stressed legs results in:

1. reduced pace versus perceived exertion
2. reduced sustainability
3. degraded running form
4. greater probability of injury.

If any one of those four components equates to high quality running, then I'll gladly eat my words.

"The right to party is a battle we have fought, but we'll surrender and go Amish... NOT!" -Wayne Campbell
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [burnman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
burnman wrote:
xtremrun wrote:
"As I said before, brick running is nothing more than poor quality running."

I guess you have the Data from a peer reviewed study to back that up?


I don't need a peer reviewed study to tell me that running on tired, stressed legs results in:

1. reduced pace versus perceived exertion
2. reduced sustainability
3. degraded running form
4. greater probability of injury.

If any one of those four components equates to high quality running, then I'll gladly eat my words.


If you only BRICK once to remind your brain how to run off the Bike, then yes - all those things will come true.

If you continually BRICK once a week for several weeks then the likely outcome will be:

1. increased pace vs RPE
2. increased sustainability
3. better running form that will begin to resemble your normal stand-alone run form
4. greater probablity of injury NOT BRICKING and then Sprinting off the BIke during a Sprint/OLY or Running long at a 70.3/140.6
Last edited by: BT_DreamChaser: Oct 27, 11 12:07
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [xtremrun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
For me personally, I've found that bricking in the traditional sense too often (bike and then run) has made me more prone to injury. Admittedly, this was before I was actually coached and my run ramp and volume was probably too much too soon (along with a laundry list of other things I was sure to be doing wrong). A pretty classic case that can't just be tied to bricking too often but perhaps partially. Basically running on tired legs.

Now that I'm coached, bricks certainly do have their place but again, for the most part, I think its more of a time issue for me (although my coach might read this and tell me otherwise and then scold me for talking out of my arse). At least during the week. On the weekends, I'm certainly doing brick focused work.

But I do still feel that running more and more often is key to running faster. Off the bike, or not. But thats not really the conversation here.

Jordan and yourself do have a point though. Bricking is quite specific to triathlon. I guess it has previously just been an n=1 kind of thing for me.

"One Line Robert"
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Rappstar wrote:
If you want to read a REALLY interesting article on the PRECISE value of brick workouts - and why they are REALLY important - read the AIS study on lower-leg muscle activation during "normal" running vs. running off the bike. Then read the section of the conclusion where they explicitly state that running off the bike in training reduces the time it takes for your body to start firing your lower leg muscles "as normal" (typically, there is some residual carryover where your body is "confused" and still fires the muscles as if you were cycling).

But don't let actual, practical evidence get in the way of what a couple of hack "coaches" (using the term loosely) think.

Of course, rather than reading ANY study at all, you can think about one simple concept - specificity. Running off the bike is specific training for triathlon. Therefore, it is going to make you a better triathlete. But of course, that doesn't get anyone talking about your "articles."

If we're going to discuss the merits of brick running (and yes, I do concede that there is some limited merit to them) then why focus on a "brick run?" Shouldn't it be a brick sprint!? Get off the bike and condition your body to correctly orient the muscle behavior as fast as humanly possible. If you want to train your brain and body to transition from pedal stroke to foot strike through repetitive conditioning, then a steeper learning curve would be preferred. Your body will understand the desired speed of the transition (i.e. the conditional input) and will theoretically respond with the corresponding (conditioned) output.

I'll go so far as to say that my best transitions occur when I drop the hammer out of T2, or if there's a steep incline coming out of transition. Perhaps I'm onto something ...

"The right to party is a battle we have fought, but we'll surrender and go Amish... NOT!" -Wayne Campbell
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Interesting.

In your opinion, how often does one need to brick and for what length to obtain the benefits you've detailed? I guess it again might be specific to the distance of race you're training for, but can one still derive benefit from a long ride (3-5 hours) followed by a short run (3-5 miles) to see the benefits for long course racing? Or does the run need to be longer?

"One Line Robert"
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
i got lost in this thread and wasn't sure who i wanted to reply to....... so Fleck, you get the reply.

early in the season when it's time to start thinking about tri's instead of just bike races and running races, we kick up "The Machine". this is a R-B-R-B-R and is done at full speed. 1.9M Run legs, and 10M bike legs.

not sure if this is considered a "brick" in the sense of the word, but i will say some of my fastest mile splits come from this 'event' and my highest 20minutes wattage numbers from the same 'event'. i think the run first puts me on the bike in a depleted state like a hard swim, and then the run off the bike is the same. not to mention you get some T1 & T2 practice's in.

it's usually over in 1:20 or so total.

this is also done on Monday nights. i love to hate them and look forward to them every week!

thoughts?


Tim
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [BT_DreamChaser] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
BT_DreamChaser wrote:
If you only BRICK once to remind your brain how to run off the Bike, then yes - all those things will come true.

If you continually BRICK once a week for several weeks then the likely outcome will be:

1. increased pace vs RPE
2. increased sustainability
3. better running form that will begin to resemble your normal stand-alone run form
4. greater probablity of injury NOT BRICKING and then Sprinting off the BIke during a Sprint/OLY or Running long at a 70.3/140.6

What I gather from your comments is that brick running is as good as - if not better than - stand alone running. In other words:

1. running at a slower relative pace, one is able to generate a greater amount of speed relative to their RPE
2. running on tired, fatigued legs, one can perform training runs of comparable quality over greater distances
3. running with inevitably diminished form (due to fatigue) one experiences enhanced strengthening of the supporting muscles required for good form
4. muscles that are fatigued provide greater support and become stronger when further stressed.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but those are the conclusions I've drawn.

"The right to party is a battle we have fought, but we'll surrender and go Amish... NOT!" -Wayne Campbell
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [wsrobert] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
wsrobert wrote:
Interesting.

In your opinion, how often does one need to brick and for what length to obtain the benefits you've detailed? I guess it again might be specific to the distance of race you're training for, but can one still derive benefit from a long ride (3-5 hours) followed by a short run (3-5 miles) to see the benefits for long course racing? Or does the run need to be longer?

Specificty.

If you're doing short course, target a tempo BRICK. If you are training Iron-distance, build up to and target your Ironman Pace.
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [TimAndrus] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Just a general reply:

So in conclusion, you don't have to do bricks to be a triathlete, but they do have some benefits. Got it. I think I'll keep doing them.

Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [burnman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
burnman wrote:
BT_DreamChaser wrote:
If you only BRICK once to remind your brain how to run off the Bike, then yes - all those things will come true.

If you continually BRICK once a week for several weeks then the likely outcome will be:

1. increased pace vs RPE
2. increased sustainability
3. better running form that will begin to resemble your normal stand-alone run form
4. greater probablity of injury NOT BRICKING and then Sprinting off the BIke during a Sprint/OLY or Running long at a 70.3/140.6


What I gather from your comments is that brick running is as good as - if not better than - stand alone running. In other words:

1. running at a slower relative pace, one is able to generate a greater amount of speed relative to their RPE
2. running on tired, fatigued legs, one can perform training runs of comparable quality over greater distances
3. running with inevitably diminished form (due to fatigue) one experiences enhanced strengthening of the supporting muscles required for good form
4. muscles that are fatigued provide greater support and become stronger when further stressed.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but those are the conclusions I've drawn.

1. the pace will be "slower" to start and then increase with consistency and repetition.
2. just like growing your Run and Bike distances, you grow your BRICK running distance. Stand-alone Long Runs are still of great importance.
3. the more you run, whether BRICK'ing or stand-alone, the body makes adaptations and becomes more efficient. Which is why elite marathoners run 100+ mile weeks, despite being tired and fatigued; and yeah, their form tends to improve.
4. see #3
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I think "bike tired" legs are different than "run tired" legs.
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Fleck

For years you have espoused racing more. Not just triathlons, but other single-sport races. Like many here, I was myoptic in my views. I figured why? Triathlons incorporate everything. So triathlon then became the be all, end all.

This year just kind of fell into doing what you espouse. Because of my work schedule this year, knew the racing was going to be very limited. So over the winter, ran a lot. If one is time constrained, running does give a good return on investment.

In April, ran my first 50 mile Ultra. In July, jumped into an Olympic Tri at the last minute. A couple weeks later, again at the last minute, a 5K. In August, a HIM. And late September, a Olympic Tri. Early October was a bandit in an open water 1.2 mile swim race (waited until the entire field was off then swam from behind into the school).

So, 2 road races, 3 tris, and 1 ow swim. Not really much racing but the best I could do. And the result. The most fun I've probably ever had in this sport. And those three tris were peak performances.

Oh, by the way, I do like bricks.
Last edited by: VegasTrilete: Oct 27, 11 14:05
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [BT_DreamChaser] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Rather than continuing the point-by-point analysis, I want to ask you a simple question. When you unclip from your bike pedals and slip into your running shoes, is the quality of the run you're about to perform greater than the quality of a stand alone run done at the same RPE? If you cannot answer that question with definitive "yes" then the discussion is over. I don't know of a single person that can complete a true training ride of any distance/duration (this excludes warm-up rides) and manage to follow it up with a run that is universally of a higher quality. It defies all logic.

The brick run is designed to train the transition of muscular response from cycling to running. That process takes a matter of minutes. Any running that you do beyond that brief adaptation period is completely diminished in value, assuming that the alternative is running on fresh legs. That is why I'm now going to advocate for brick sprinting as the new revolution in multisport training. Let us join together and milk the triathlon community of its disposable income. Silver bullets like this only come along once every ..... uhm ..... week or so ..... in triathlon :-)

"The right to party is a battle we have fought, but we'll surrender and go Amish... NOT!" -Wayne Campbell
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [greg'n] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
It's actually sad to see such a close-minded article, when simple common sense shows us how wrong it is. Just re-read the comments in this thread and everyone agreeing with this article is pretty much admitting that Running off the Bike includes a different level of fatigue; different Running form; YEAH cause Running off the Bike is different than strand-alone Running!! Duh! Of course, the fundamentals of Running are the same which is why we should continue to do stand-alone Run training, and why stand-alone Run training is critical; however, Running off the Bike is a different animal than stand-alone Running and should be addressed through BRICK training. And who gets better at just training something once or twice????

Making a statement like "you just have to BRICK once before a race to remind your body what it feels like" is equivalent to solely training on flat roads and then racing a technical, off-road Xterra and saying "you just have to ride off-road once to remind your brain and body what a bumpy off-road ride ride feels like".
Sure you have core fundamental cycling fitness, and may do very well training like this for an Xterra; but you'd perform that much better if you specifically trained many off-road sessions. Trainer rides and flat road cylcling will also be essential; but you can't replace off-road riding with just a single session or two; just like you can't replace succesfully running off the bike by doing a single BRICK or two. Sure, if you run 50 miles a week and ride 300 miles a week with no BRICKS you will still have a fast race. However, if you replace a portion of that running with consistent BRICK-work, your likely to have an even faster race for countless reasons.

Perhaps if more Triathletes trained "Triathlon" (BRICK'ing specifically) there would be less claims that they went "too hard on the Bike at the start" or "too hard on the Run to start".
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
"But don't let actual, practical evidence get in the way of what a couple of hack "coaches" (using the term loosely) think."

It seems that both you and Paulo have the same opinion of the EN people but differ on your opinion of the importance of brick workouts. Do you have a link to the article you referenced? I'd like to read it.

Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Rapp,
In 1997 I did a 20x1 mile repeat track brick after a 120 mile 10,000 ft climb in preparation for IMC. That was way excessive but no one knew better. Today as an old fart of 55 I do bricks nothing longer than 40- 45 minutes and I find great value from them. Great way to practice transition and get to the run as quickly as possible. It works for me don't care about others who say they are useless.
Last edited by: iurnman: Oct 27, 11 13:10
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [iurnman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I don't think I've seen one person say bricks are useless.
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [burnman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
burnman wrote:
Rather than continuing the point-by-point analysis, I want to ask you a simple question. When you unclip from your bike pedals and slip into your running shoes, is the quality of the run you're about to perform greater than the quality of a stand alone run done at the same RPE? If you cannot answer that question with definitive "yes" then the discussion is over. I don't know of a single person that can complete a true training ride of any distance/duration (this excludes warm-up rides) and manage to follow it up with a run that is universally of a higher quality. It defies all logic.

The brick run is designed to train the transition of muscular response from cycling to running. That process takes a matter of minutes. Any running that you do beyond that brief adaptation period is completely diminished in value, assuming that the alternative is running on fresh legs. That is why I'm now going to advocate for brick sprinting as the new revolution in multisport training. Let us join together and milk the triathlon community of its disposable income. Silver bullets like this only come along once every ..... uhm ..... week or so ..... in triathlon :-)

The answer is absolutely yes.

No sarcasm here, seriously, but perhaps if you BRICK'd more in training you would understand this.

Haven't your Race times gotten better? Often this is a function of the body having more experience Swimming, Biking and Running. It's very logical. "The more you do something, the better you get at it." Again, no sarcasm, but this is an elementary principle.

And please don't sprint off the Bike, that's a really bad idea unless you've built up to that.

Here's another simple analogy for you. A peanut butter and jelly sandwich. Peanut butter is Cycling. And the Jelly is Running. You can eat a peanut butter sandwich by itself. And the next day you can eat a jelly sandwich by itself. But put them together on the third day and you have PEANUT BUTTER & JELLY TIME SANDWICH. Yes it's still just bread, peanut butter and jelly; but now it taste awesome. I'm just being silly now. I kid, I kid. But perhaps you see the point.
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [kdw] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
did you read the EN article
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [iurnman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Yes. They didn't say they were useless.
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [burnman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I'll go so far as to say that my best transitions occur when I drop the hammer out of T2, or if there's a steep incline coming out of transition.

That is a good point, the point of a brick workout should be more race oriented ie done at race paces - both the bike effort near the end and the run effort off the bike. Yet, that's not the way most do this - they spin easy for the latter part of the bike then jog for 20 or so minutes off the bike. I am not sure what good any of that is doing. It has very little specificity to an actual race. Thus, one wonders why people would do this.

As I mentioned in the early years we just raced a lot, so we got a lot of brick training in that way. In the latter years when I did not race as frequently each year, I did more limited brick workouts, but these bricks were very race specific - would finish a hard bike ride and then, I would be running at race pace or faster on a run!

Specificity!



Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [VegasTrilete] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
The most fun I've probably ever had in this sport. And those
three tris were peak performances.


That's Win/Win - Having Fun and having great performances! What's not to like.

Glad to hear!



Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [kdw] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I'm clearly not Rappstar but I believe he's referencing this article?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14658244

I'm sure I'll be corrected in due course, but that's what my PubMed search threw up
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [WongerChi] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Awesome, thanks!
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [iurnman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In 1997 I did a 20x1 mile repeat track brick after a 120 mile 10,000 ft climb in preparation for IMC.

That may be the most bad-ass IM workout of all time. Well done.

That one needs to go in the workout Hall of Fame - seriously!





Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Fleck, I had an awesome age group coach named Jay Marschall here in Atl. He did it all hard so all his clones did the same.
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
So in short, and I can and probably will be wrong. The study suggests brick workouts benefit is to train your legs physiologically to run at there maximum potential quicker than if you don't/didn't do any brick workouts.
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [VegasTrilete] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
x1.8

Don't like the bandit bit at all, but the rest of it is a good way to go.
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [isbr2] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
millet and vleck also published this guy (http://bjsm.bmj.com/...nt/34/5/384.abstract) around the same time; the upshot was that best value for bricks was several back-to-backs of very high intensity, like a run-bike-run-bike-run workout.

before a long-course race, i might throw in a few very long bricks, mainly in order to feel good about my nutrition, pacing, gear, and to boost my confidence. otherwise i'm a big proponent of the shorter, higher-intensity protocols. i think triathletes should do bricks, and the majority of running off the bike should be short and fast.

-mike

____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [BT_DreamChaser] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Uh, did you inexplicably mistake me for Speedracer1? We're not related.
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I think a lot of you guys are reading in more to this article than what it's really saying... Kinda like you do when you say EN espouses no swimming in the off season.

Full Disclosure: I've been with EN since 2007. While I don't follow their plans to a tee, I agree with many (most) of the principles in their plan frameworks, and find that they allow me to reach the work-family-triathlon balance that works for me, while continuing to improve my fitness and racing. I think most people who criticize EN are under the misunderstanding that they are trying to offer the same result as a 1-1 coach in a one-size fits all package. In my experience, that's a completely false assumption.


-------------------------------------
Steve Perkins
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [burnman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Very one dimesional
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [steveperx] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Quote:
I think a lot of you guys are reading in more to this article than what it's really saying... Kinda like you do when you say EN espouses no swimming in the off season.


I've seen their off-season plan and it included zero swimming.
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Supersquid] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Quote:
I've seen their off-season plan and it included zero swimming.

Did you read the supporting documentation?


-------------------------------------
Steve Perkins
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
Interesting article against brick workouts:

http://goo.gl/PP8fD

What do you think?

I'm willing to test it. I've found that more training is not always better training.

I agree with the premise that to "race fast" one needs to "train fast." Some of my best "bricks" have been a twice a week bike run, where I would bike 15 minutes to work, lock up the bike and change shoes, then go out for a 25 to 50 minute run (the time would vary depending on my training cycle). My legs felt fresher on a reduced bike that resulted in some amazing runs. Yet, I still got the experience and benefit of the bike and a T2.

However, I will do a long bike (three hours) followed by a long run (1hr 45 min) two or three times a training year (after building a solid base for four months) just to dial in my pace and nutrition.

I'm going to start the season earlier (second week of November) in order to do shorter workouts, like bricks, while gradually building for Oly/HIM distance events from July through September.
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Rappa and this Paolo are truly a couple of a$$s. I only say that as they took it upon themselves to insult two very nice individuals for absolutely no reason. If you want to be passionate about something or think you are an expert, then communicate it professionally. Obviously, the term pro triathlete doesn't mean a lot in terms of professionalism. So, both of you go take a nap before your next training session, and while you are at it, dream of all those age groupers out there who pay for your lifestyle and your prize money. You shouldn't be insulting two individuals who help bring money into the sport you love--you should be praising them for continuing the passion and creating new thoughts and ideas into the triathlon ecosystem.
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Brick runs are largely a waste of time and can be a fast-track to injury.

They are useful for two reasons:
1. You get to know the feeling of running on tired legs, especially in those initial few 100 meters, hence you can develop strategies and analyze techniques to best counter that. i.e. high cadence in last part of bike leg, same with the run.
2. If you are time crunched it is a good way of getting two workouts in before/after work

I dont like them because I think the first point is dramatically over-emphasised. Ok so your legs hurt, you know what that feeling is after a few races. You don't need to keep reinforcing it.
Running fatigued will see your form fall apart, which significantly increases the chance of injury.

Pete Jacobs tweeted in January he just did his first brick session in two years!!

All my bricks (which are very rare) are done on a very easy run

__________________________________________________
http://twitter.com/willrc91 --- instragram.com/willrc91
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Jordan and Paulo,
I have been a big fan of yours due to your contribution to this forum and its knowledge base.....BUT......to come out with cheap shots like your statements were totally unprofessional!!!

It's perfectly OK to disagree based on science, your experience, whatever.....but, to call Rich and Patrick "hacks" cheapens your class act here.
Im not here to defend EN, all I know is these "hack" coachs had EVERYONE (25 athletes) at IMLOU 2011 RUNNING the marathon....compared to hundreds I saw walking. The EN team generally has 70-85% PB rate in most IMs this year. Lets compare that among coaches who coach AGers! They do not coach Pros but have coached many who have KQed.

Please keep it professional!!!!

Michael in Kansas
"Once you learn to quit, it becomes a habit"
"Its not whether you get knocked down, it's whether you get up" Lombardi
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [steveperx] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Quote:
Did you read the supporting documentation?

Yes, but I stopped at "...but the bottom line is that swimming 2-3 hours a week for 5 months in the OutSeason, for most AG triathletes, will simply not affect how you swim on race day."
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [iurnman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Jay is here in Montana now. Still uses "his clones" term.......................And a workout like that tells me He is not the coach for me.
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [ProGoTakeANap] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
ProGoTakeANap wrote:
Rappa and this Paolo are truly a couple of a$$s. I only say that as they took it upon themselves to insult two very nice individuals for absolutely no reason. If you want to be passionate about something or think you are an expert, then communicate it professionally. Obviously, the term pro triathlete doesn't mean a lot in terms of professionalism. So, both of you go take a nap before your next training session, and while you are at it, dream of all those age groupers out there who pay for your lifestyle and your prize money. You shouldn't be insulting two individuals who help bring money into the sport you love--you should be praising them for continuing the passion and creating new thoughts and ideas into the triathlon ecosystem.

Looks like the EN crowd have gotten wind of this thread.
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I agree with a lot of what is written. After a few triathlons you get used to the T2 experience. However I'm glad to see that they do make the point that including bricks is very efficient for time management for those who have to limited training time. I do also think there is a value to running on tired legs and also in base building/ return to fitness / weight loss phases where doing less and longer sessions with the available training hours is more beneficial. I think this applies to a lot of folks out there. For those who are in the FOP / elite area then the argument probably holds up well

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TriRaceBook.com
.
Hawaii Qualification Analysis
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Supersquid] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Supersquid wrote:
Quote:
Did you read the supporting documentation?

Yes, but I stopped at "...but the bottom line is that swimming 2-3 hours a week for 5 months in the OutSeason, for most AG triathletes, will simply not affect how you swim on race day."

and assuming that you can not bike and run in an IM in less than 10 hours or 4.5 hours in a half that is a true statement, no? I mean who really gives a shit if you swim 1:05 and go 12:30 or 1:15 and 12:40. The point is to pick all of the low hanging fruit first and the vast majority of folks have plenty.

Seems like there are a shit ton of people who always want to debate minutiae like clincher v tubbie, the best kind of whey protein, the optimal training programs yet they do not do any of it, eat like a trash compactor and are walking it in anyway. Who gives a shit.

Plenty of EN folks walking in the dark. Plenty of folks who have awesome 1:1 coaches walking in the dark as well. I am sure if they did more bricks or swam in the winter they would run much better off the bike though ;-)
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [ProGoTakeANap] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Is it possible that they are saying something you don't want to hear.

jaretj
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Supersquid] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Quote:
Yes, but I stopped at "...but the bottom line is that swimming 2-3 hours a week for 5 months in the OutSeason, for most AG triathletes, will simply not affect how you swim on race day.

I think that's pretty much true. I also note that it doesn't say "do not swim in the offseason".


-------------------------------------
Steve Perkins
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [steveperx] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In Reply To:
but the bottom line is that swimming 2-3 hours a week for 5 months in the OutSeason, for most AG triathletes, will simply not affect how you swim on race day.

If that is the case then one of a few things are happening.

1. the workouts suck
2. the coach sucks, giving ineffective, poorly designed workouts.
3. the athlete has some major stroke flaws
4. the athlete phoned it in, probably skipping half the workouts, probably cut back on 15% more and effectively phoned it in.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
"Is it possible that they are saying something you don't want to hear. "

Well, considering one of them is saying "Yeah, we knew that about bricks back in 2004." and the other is saying "Totally untrue, bricks are really important." it's a little confusing.
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [steveperx] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
If 5 months of training isn't going to lead to an improvement, what are you paying them for? To tell you to accept and ignore your weaknesses?
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [kdw] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In Reply To:
"Is it possible that they are saying something you don't want to hear. "

Well, considering one of them is saying "Yeah, we knew that about bricks back in 2004." and the other is saying "Totally untrue, bricks are really important." it's a little confusing.

I don't think it's confusing. We've known for a long time that bricks are not effective for lifting performance.

We've also known for a bit that there is some neurological differences when running right after biking.

We've also known for a bit that those changes revert back to normal patterns rather quickly, iirc most research shows <1km to revert back.

We've know that running off the bike is a skill, a skill that needs specific work, just like taking off a wet suit.

We've known that the best way to train this skill is not doing a brick per se, but to do multiple bouts of riding for a bit then doing a short run. do that multiple times per session.

Paulo said bricks are ridiculous and iirc there is no need for bricks. Jordan said there are neuro differences and you need to train the skill.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Last edited by: desert dude: Oct 27, 11 17:17
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [BT_DreamChaser] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Good points but my guess is no one really knows if it's better to do bricks 1,2,3 X's a week , always after a ride or not at all. I've tried a brick intensive approach and a non brick approach and found that I'm better off not doing bricks--but I'm a LC athlete and I race a lot. Plus I was alive when the dinos roamed the earth! My experiment of one was not rigorous for sure but I can tell you that what Crowie experiences in triathlon racing and training is decidily not what I experience....

Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [kdw] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Maybe I wasn't talking about bricks ;)
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Supersquid] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
It seems like the whole brick thing is a personal preference deal. Rapp says do them, Paolo says no. These EN guys say no, except for a long training day if I read it correctly. They say they have data. Maybe it is just anecdotal like Jordan says. Whatever, to each his own.

Now this no swimming thing is interesting. Again, these EN guys say they have data backing them up. So what I want to know is how much do you guys swim in the offseason, and how much improvement are you seeing in your race swim times? I don't have a huge race resume so I can't really find a pattern, just wondering what everyone else is seeing.
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
desert dude wrote:

Paulo said bricks are ridiculous and iirc there is no need for bricks. Jordan said there are neuro differences and you need to train the skill.

This is what I said:

http://thetriathlonbook.blogspot.com/...unning-off-bike.html

-

The Triathlon Squad

Like us on Facebook!!!
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [ProGoTakeANap] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
ProGoTakeANap wrote:
Rappa and this Paolo are truly a couple of a$$s.

Oh dear... here comes the cult reaction. It's been a while.

-

The Triathlon Squad

Like us on Facebook!!!
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Paulo Sousa] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
From your blog


Paulo Sousa wrote:
Running off the bike is not different from pure running, and there is even evidence to prove this.

versus

Rappstar wrote:
read the AIS study on lower-leg muscle activation during "normal" running vs. running off the bike. Then read the section of the conclusion where they explicitly state that running off the bike in training reduces the time it takes for your body to start firing your lower leg muscles "as normal" (typically, there is some residual carryover where your body is "confused" and still fires the muscles as if you were cycling).
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [JollyRogers] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Rappstar wrote:

"But don't let actual, practical evidence get in the way of what a couple of hack "coaches" (using the term loosely) think. "

Besides being a relatively fast athlete what credibility do you have to call someone a "hack". I'm surprised that someone that is the voice for so many different companies and slowtwitch would speak in these terms for a concept that is definitely not as clear cut as we would like it to be.

FWIW, I have no affiliation with these EN coaches.

Derek
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [tucktri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
tucktri wrote:
Now this no swimming thing is interesting. Again, these EN guys say they have data backing them up. So what I want to know is how much do you guys swim in the offseason, and how much improvement are you seeing in your race swim times? I don't have a huge race resume so I can't really find a pattern, just wondering what everyone else is seeing.

Yes, there is data. But to clarify...

The main assertion is the total cost (including the mental cost of getting up at 0 dark 30 in the cold) to do 2-3 sessions per week in the winter yields a very low return on investment for an IM. Assuming you are an average swimmer (say 1:10-1:15) there is a large amount of work (20K+/week?!?) to get down to a 1:02-1:05 swim. To get down to 0:55-0:58 would take more than 2x that amount of work I would assume. For the average triathlete that 5-6 hours a week (including admin time) could be far better spent working on the bike and run and yielding greater than 10-15 minutes on race day.
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [greg'n] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I know. You're right. That was the first time, and last that I will "bandit". The race web site was very confusing as to signing up and being a masters member, or not, and having your own kayak support (turned out only for the 8K race). In any case the cut-off was three days before the race. Like pretty much all the races I did, I was signing up the night before, this one did not have that option.

I guess I rationalized this poor decision as considering myself as an in-the water spectator. I did not interfere with anyone and started after all had launched. I did use all the buoys though, but peeled off at the finish to head back out. It was fun though. Choppy open water and no wet suits.
Last edited by: VegasTrilete: Oct 28, 11 9:28
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [JollyRogers] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
If you read Paulo's whole blog, you will see that there is nothing in it that is contrary to what I wrote.

The two important takeaways are specificity and that running off the bike is a skill.

I'd equate it, generally, to riding your TT/tri bike. Riding the TT bike is a skill. But, more generally, cycling fitness is the limiter (and that can be built on a road bike or a TT bike). You just need to ride a bike a lot; rather than worrying about riding your TT bike or your road bike. Just pedal. And, quite often, if you do buy and use a road bike, you'll actually be BETTER off, because it offers similar muscle recruitment to riding your TT bike in the aerobars without the issues (limited visibility, for example), easier shifting/braking at the same time, etc. of always riding the TT bike. Likewise, the more mileage you have riding a TT bike, the less often you need to ride it in order to maintain that skill. Riding the tri bike is SPECIFIC to triathlon. So you do need to do it. You don't need to do it ALL THE TIME.

Same logic applies to running off the bike.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [VegasTrilete] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Well, as long as no kittens, baby seals, or spotted owls were harmed...I guess we can let it slide.
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [theriad] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
What particular concept do you believe is not clear cut? The benefits (or lack thereof) of running off the bike? Or the concept that the EN "coaches" are hacks. The former is a nuanced issue with some interesting room for debate. As for the latter, I think somewhere along the lines, you got things mixed up. What credibility do the EN "coaches" have to prove that they are NOT hacks? I.e., I'm reminded of the Ricky Gervais' article on atheism (though let's not mistake the gravitas of this particular issue with that of whether or not there is or is not a god) - "I can't go up to people saying 'Prove I can't fly.' They'd go, 'what do you mean prove you can't fly. Prove you can.'"

I think the onus is on the EN "coaches" to prove that they are, in fact, "elite coaches," as they claim on their website. If you are going to call yourself something, you ought to be able to back it up. Absent that, I don't think one needs any special credibility to call a spade a spade. Or, as the case may be, to call a hack a hack...

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Rappstar wrote:
What particular concept do you believe is not clear cut? The benefits (or lack thereof) of running off the bike? Or the concept that the EN "coaches" are hacks. The former is a nuanced issue with some interesting room for debate. As for the latter, I think somewhere along the lines, you got things mixed up. What credibility do the EN "coaches" have to prove that they are NOT hacks? I.e., I'm reminded of the Ricky Gervais' article on atheism (though let's not mistake the gravitas of this particular issue with that of whether or not there is or is not a god) - "I can't go up to people saying 'Prove I can't fly.' They'd go, 'what do you mean prove you can't fly. Prove you can.'"

I think the onus is on the EN "coaches" to prove that they are, in fact, "elite coaches," as they claim on their website. If you are going to call yourself something, you ought to be able to back it up. Absent that, I don't think one needs any special credibility to call a spade a spade. Or, as the case may be, to call a hack a hack...

Sorry for not being clear. After over 25 years of triathlon experience as an AG athlete I still am on the fence regarding the benefits of "brick workouts". In all honesty I think it is a very individualized type of workout that will produce different results depending on the athlete.

In regards to having someone prove that they are "elite coaches" I have no idea how someone can do that. I've coached a female athlete to a top ten finish in Hawaii and several athletes to make the national junior team in the late 90's. Did that make me an "elite coach", in my opinion no, others would think yes. I just feel that it is unnecessary to make comments like you made. It would be like me making a comment such as : Jordan Rapp says he is an elite triathlete but doesn't have what it takes because he is too afraid to take on the best in Hawaii. I have no credibility to make such a comment and you have nothing to prove so where do we go from here.

In summary, I think that whatever EN is doing they are providing a service that is liked by many and those that are not satisfied simply find another alternative. It is impossible to agree on all there concepts but to call them a "hack" is disrespectful and disappointing coming from someone with your stature in the triathlon community.

Derek
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Supersquid] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply

Quote:
If 5 months of training isn't going to lead to an improvement, what are you paying them for? To tell you to accept and ignore your weaknesses?

I pay them help me improve my overall race times, and because I like the people that hang out there.


-------------------------------------
Steve Perkins
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [theriad] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
theriad wrote:
I've coached a female athlete to a top ten finish in Hawaii and several athletes to make the national junior team in the late 90's. Did that make me an "elite coach", in my opinion no [..]

I agree 100%. In fact, I've seen several hacks achieve similar level of results.

-

The Triathlon Squad

Like us on Facebook!!!
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Paulo Sousa] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Paulo Sousa wrote:
theriad wrote:
I've coached a female athlete to a top ten finish in Hawaii and several athletes to make the national junior team in the late 90's. Did that make me an "elite coach", in my opinion no [..]


I agree 100%. In fact, I've seen several hacks achieve similar level of results.

Honestly from what I've seen you are probably the biggest one so far. What have you accomplished as an "elite coach"? I've done better than you, no?
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [theriad] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
theriad wrote:
Paulo Sousa wrote:
theriad wrote:
I've coached a female athlete to a top ten finish in Hawaii and several athletes to make the national junior team in the late 90's. Did that make me an "elite coach", in my opinion no [..]


I agree 100%. In fact, I've seen several hacks achieve similar level of results.


Honestly from what I've seen you are probably the biggest one so far. What have you accomplished as an "elite coach"? I've done better than you, no?

For sure, anonymous trolls on the Internet are usually much better coaches than I am.

-

The Triathlon Squad

Like us on Facebook!!!
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Jordan, seriously, your arrogance is appalling. If you don't like the coaches at EN, you're well entitled to that opinion. If you think that they're doing their athletes a universal disservice by telling them that their time is better spent with their family for 6 months of the year than chasing 5-8 minutes of improvement, again, you're totally entitled to that opinion. But you insult literally hundreds of people who read this forum, and who patronize the sponsors that pay your salary, when you decide that your opinion gives you the right to attack them, and when you decide that somehow you're the only arbiter of what is right and what is wrong. Open your mind, dude, there's more than one way for people to achieve their goals in life. Maybe not everybody out there wants what you want...

M
-----
'tri or tri not, there is no du' - yoda
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Paulo Sousa] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Paulo Sousa wrote:
theriad wrote:
Paulo Sousa wrote:
theriad wrote:
I've coached a female athlete to a top ten finish in Hawaii and several athletes to make the national junior team in the late 90's. Did that make me an "elite coach", in my opinion no [..]


I agree 100%. In fact, I've seen several hacks achieve similar level of results.


Honestly from what I've seen you are probably the biggest one so far. What have you accomplished as an "elite coach"? I've done better than you, no?


For sure, anonymous trolls on the Internet are usually much better coaches than I am.

Derek Theriault
triathlon coach from 1994-1998


I have nothing to hide. Maybe you can post your results as a coach?
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [theriad] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
The marked difference is that I do not - on my website - make any sort of claim regarding my calibre as an athlete. In other words, you are certainly free to hold the opinion that I am not an elite because I have not competed in Hawaii, and you are free to hold the opinion that I am afraid to do so. But you wouldn't be making such a statement in opposition to any claim that I had made. That's why I do not - on Twitter, or Facebook, on my forum profile, on my website, or anywhere else - list myself as an "elite" or "professional." Because there are legions of pseudo-pros who do exactly that. Having a pro-card doesn't make you a professional.

Beyond, that, however, there is the simple fact that I have, in my wallet, a card issued by USAT that licenses me as an "Elite Triathlete." So, strictly speaking, I am in fact an Elite. That's just a true/false statement, which is different than calling yourself an elite coach because even USAT does not grant (yet...) the title of "Elite Coach." So it's not something that you can be simply by virtue of possessing a license. I.e., you can say that someone shouldn't be a doctor, but if they have an MD, they are. Likewise, maybe I shouldn't be an elite triathlete, but I have my license, so for now, I am. That same situation does not apply here.

As far as proving you are an elite coach, I'd say it's a little bit of a case of, "if you have to prove it, you aren't." Case in point. Here's another coach that lists himself as an "elite coach" - http://joelfilliol.blogspot.com/ He has coached athletes to a junior world championship, at least four world cup wins (sorry Joel, I can't remember them all...), an Olympic Silver medal, five major games (Olympics, 2xPanAms, 2xCommonwealth's), been hired by the most competitive high performance sporting program in the sport (TriGB), etc., etc. In other words, he's coached clearly elite athletes to clearly elite performances. Joel is an elite coach. That's easy to prove. The EN guys don't even have a legitimate palmares. They just have some testimonials from AG athletes...

Even more to your point, it is indeed hard to prove you are an elite coach. It's pretty easy to disprove such a claim though. If you've never coached a professional athlete at a world class level to a world class performance, you are NOT an elite coach.

If you are going to write that you are "recognized experts," "elite coaches," etc., then you ought to have some substance behind it. Otherwise, it's just talk. And there is far too much of that in this sport. And I don't feel bad about pointing it out where I see it.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [BT_DreamChaser] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
BT_DreamChaser wrote:
burnman wrote:
Rather than continuing the point-by-point analysis, I want to ask you a simple question. When you unclip from your bike pedals and slip into your running shoes, is the quality of the run you're about to perform greater than the quality of a stand alone run done at the same RPE? If you cannot answer that question with definitive "yes" then the discussion is over. I don't know of a single person that can complete a true training ride of any distance/duration (this excludes warm-up rides) and manage to follow it up with a run that is universally of a higher quality. It defies all logic.

The brick run is designed to train the transition of muscular response from cycling to running. That process takes a matter of minutes. Any running that you do beyond that brief adaptation period is completely diminished in value, assuming that the alternative is running on fresh legs. That is why I'm now going to advocate for brick sprinting as the new revolution in multisport training. Let us join together and milk the triathlon community of its disposable income. Silver bullets like this only come along once every ..... uhm ..... week or so ..... in triathlon :-)


The answer is absolutely yes.

No sarcasm here, seriously, but perhaps if you BRICK'd more in training you would understand this.

Haven't your Race times gotten better? Often this is a function of the body having more experience Swimming, Biking and Running. It's very logical. "The more you do something, the better you get at it." Again, no sarcasm, but this is an elementary principle.

And please don't sprint off the Bike, that's a really bad idea unless you've built up to that.

I'll avoid turning this into a pissing match and simply say that my avoidance of brick running and emphasis on high quality running has coincided with a distinct improvement over the field. I used to run bricks. I used to run a lot of bricks. I ran them hard. I ran them easy. I ran them because I was under the delusion that the "pounding heart" and "burning leg" sensations would help me muscle through them on race day. The simple fact is that you can't train yourself to avoid those sensations because they're an inevitable part of the race effort. It's a level of effort that you can only replicate when you're running at race-level quality. I could run at Z2 with the flu and suffer like I'm running at Z5. That doesn't translate to better Z5 running.

Regardless of your assertions, no one achieves greater running quality during a brick. If you lay up on your training ride, then you may possibly run in the ballpark of your potential, but under those conditions you've essentially defied the nature of a brick. Frankly, I shouldn't be opposing brick running. I should be advocating for it. As the general triathlon population increases its frequency and volume of brick running, I continue to get faster and faster relative to the field.

Now, if someone wants to discuss effective brick "running" as a very brief (5-7 minute), high-intensity (Z4-Z5) transition effort completed immediately after a respectable bike workout, then I'll gladly discuss in favor. Otherwise, I'm afraid that you're putting wasted miles on your shoes and on your legs.

"The right to party is a battle we have fought, but we'll surrender and go Amish... NOT!" -Wayne Campbell
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Ever consider that, grammatically, there's a diffference between an "Elite coach" and a Coach of Elite Athletes? I know you're an engineer who sees the world in very clear black and white, but I thought they also taught English at Princeton.

M
-----
'tri or tri not, there is no du' - yoda
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [phabio] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
You're right. I apologize to those people who want to spend their hard earned money on bad advice and/or who want to specifically avoid doing a simple and time-efficient thing that can help them improve their race performance.

To be clear, I am not saying that I am the arbiter of right and wrong. I am pointing out that there is direct evidence (from a real study run by a respected source - the AIS) that demonstrates that running off the bike is DEFINITIVELY different than running "on tired legs." And that, furthermore, that running off the bike in training mitigates the effect that this difference has on run performance.

In other words, I'm not saying it's my OPINION that the EN guys are wrong. I'm saying there is clear, scientific evidence that they are wrong. The fact that individuals who make their living as "coaches" are unaware of this information makes me question what exactly qualifies them to be a coach.

I never made ANY sort of valuation of training time vs. family time. I have no idea where you got that, but I've been on this forum long enough to know that you don't actually need to say anything even remotely close to something for people to remain convinced that you said it... In fact, given that bricks are - in general - more time efficient, I'd actually say that I'm encouraging people to spend more time with their family. And to spend their money on their kids/spouses rather than wasting it on EN's cookie cutter plans...

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [phabio] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
phabio wrote:
Ever consider that, grammatically, there's a diffference between an "Elite coach" and a Coach of Elite Athletes? I know you're an engineer who sees the world in very clear black and white, but I thought they also taught English at Princeton.

Yes, the (major) grammatical difference is that, in the latter phrase, you have a prepositional phrase describing the word coach and in the former, you only use an adjective. While that may seem like a flippant reply, that's because you cannot be an elite coach if you do not (or - more specifically - have NEVER) coached elite athletes. Being a current coach is certainly not a requirement; e.g., my college rowing coach, who has over five medals from seven (IIRC) world championships and more national championships at the Div1 collegiate level than I can remember, is now a stay-at-home dad. But he is still, most certainly, an elite coach, even though the extent of his rowing coaching is occasionally working with the local high school team.

The word "elite" is becoming as meaningless, unfortunately, as the word "expert," or any other number of superlative terms. Excellence is now just resume filler. But that doesn't make it right. Let me ask you something. If you want to classify guys like the EN coaches as "elite," then how would you describe a coach like Renato Canova? Would you simply use the same word? Do you not think that basically renders the term meaningless?

If an elite coach doesn't (or, at least, hasn't) coached elite athletes to elite performances, then what in the hell is an elite coach?

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Rappstar wrote:
You're right. I apologize to those people who want to spend their hard earned money on bad advice and/or who want to specifically avoid doing a simple and time-efficient thing that can help them improve their race performance.

To be clear, I am not saying that I am the arbiter of right and wrong. I am pointing out that there is direct evidence (from a real study run by a respected source - the AIS) that demonstrates that running off the bike is DEFINITIVELY different than running "on tired legs." And that, furthermore, that running off the bike in training mitigates the effect that this difference has on run performance.

In other words, I'm not saying it's my OPINION that the EN guys are wrong. I'm saying there is clear, scientific evidence that they are wrong. The fact that individuals who make their living as "coaches" are unaware of this information makes me question what exactly qualifies them to be a coach.

I never made ANY sort of valuation of training time vs. family time. I have no idea where you got that, but I've been on this forum long enough to know that you don't actually need to say anything even remotely close to something for people to remain convinced that you said it... In fact, given that bricks are - in general - more time efficient, I'd actually say that I'm encouraging people to spend more time with their family. And to spend their money on their kids/spouses rather than wasting it on EN's cookie cutter plans...

Jordan,
Any chance of a link to the study? Or a quick summary? How much time does the study suggest to run off the bike? Someone linked to a study earlier in the thread, is that the one you are discussing? It was from School of Biomedical and Sports Science, Edith Cowan University, Perth, Western Australia.
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I wonder how many people have read this entire thread (as I have), and are still not swayed either way by the arguments; but have lost a measure of respect for some of the posters therein.



persequetur vestra metas furiose
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Thanks for the thoughtful responses.

On the AIS study, it (and many others) have shown that running off the bike is different. I haven't seen any studies that show that execution of a training plan that incoporates brick running produces different results than execution of a training plan without brick runs. just because it is different doesn't mean it's trainable. That would be scientific evidence that they're wrong. Until then, we're all taking our best guess.

On the question of the definition of Elite, I'd suggest that any coach who is able to get the best out of the athletes they've chosen to service should be 'allowed' to hang a shingle with a superlative. Elite, expert, terrific, or otherwise doesn't really matter much to me. It's quite apparent that it matters a great deal to you, and I respect that. I wonder if the bike brand Elite bothers you to the same degree?

On the grammar, hats' off to you for a fine defense of Princeton's English department. Touche.

M
-----
'tri or tri not, there is no du' - yoda
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
That's very elitist of you. :)



1. (n.) elite
(often used with a pl. v.) the choice or best of a group, class, or the like.

2.  elite
(used with a pl. v.) persons of the wealthiest class.

3.  elite
a group of persons exercising authority within a larger group.

Couldn't they fit #3?

BB
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [TigerBlood] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Because people aren't afraid to express their opinions and attempt to maintain/ensure a level of credibility and/or standards?

Doesn't seem like a reason to loss respect for someone.
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
And I completely agree, Joe was, is, and will always be an elite coach. God knows that I lost more shirts than I'd care to admit at his expense. But I also stand in awe of the coaching of someone like Stu Schmill and the job he did at MIT, putting them on the podium at the sprints in 1997. I don't know if he has any other elite palmares, but that was an elite performance as far as a season of coaching. Part of why I believe it's not just about elite performances from elite athletes.

M
-----
'tri or tri not, there is no du' - yoda
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I was going to post something a few weeks ago about the benefits of running before the bike in terms of a brick workout, but I didn't because it just didn't seem race specific. I thought perhaps the run would mimic the swim in terms of a cardio workout and be beneficial to some extent. As a PE teacher, I have studied about the specificity principal in training and making training and practice more specific to the game or performance/race day. I have looked at how some forms of practice are useless because they are so far off from the actual sport itself. However, cardio workouts are different from basketball/volleyball workouts. In terms of triathlon and brick workouts, brick workouts are great in terms of mental preparation and confidence building, but they won't make us much faster than a balanced schedule of both brick and speed workouts. I remember doing my first triathlon and feeling for the first time what running on tired legs felt like. Had I done a brick workout or two, I would of been more prepared, more confident and probably faster.

Anyways, I think anytime you bike or run first or second its beneficial, but like the article suggests, you can't expect to run faster because you have done a few brick workouts instead of having many individual hard running or biking workouts. I think for begginner triathletes, brick workouts are going to be beneficial, while experienced triathletes whose bodies are already experienced and accustomed to the change from bike to run should leave brick workouts to a minimum and focus more on high quality speed workouts.

The question of course is can a run/swim brick workout improve swimming? Or a bike/swim workout? Is swimming when your legs are tired good for something?
I see that Simon Whitfield does a bike in the morning, a swim after that, and then a long run in the afternoon. So who really knows what makes a faster triathlete?
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [buddahbelly] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
buddahbelly wrote:
That's very elitist of you. :)

1. (n.) elite
(often used with a pl. v.) the choice or best of a group, class, or the like.

2. elite
(used with a pl. v.) persons of the wealthiest class.

3. elite
a group of persons exercising authority within a larger group.

I've occasionally been #1, never #2, and always #3, assuming that "exercising" is interchangeable with "abusing" :-)

"The right to party is a battle we have fought, but we'll surrender and go Amish... NOT!" -Wayne Campbell
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [phabio] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
phabio wrote:
On the AIS study, it (and many others) have shown that running off the bike is different. I haven't seen any studies that show that execution of a training plan that incoporates brick running produces different results than execution of a training plan without brick runs. just because it is different doesn't mean it's trainable. That would be scientific evidence that they're wrong. Until then, we're all taking our best guess.

Clearly I am late to this party. The problem with scientific evidence and/or doing a 'study' of training plans is that it simply won't work. Science, sports scientists, etc. are generally a step behind what 'works' in the coaching world and are generally playing catch up to prove why something works. And even still there are a ton of unanswered questions. You could do a test with a sample of 100 different athletes and give them the same training plan that includes bricks or doesn't, and you would get a variety of different results. Bricks would 'work' for some and not for others. Horses for courses. 'Coaching' is tuning a plan to the individual whether it is done online or in person, and the argument can be made the you can only do so much coaching in an online manner. Execution of a training plan that incorporates brick running compared to one that doesn't would likely lead to more questions than answers.

That is where just giving out a basic canned plan is not necessarily 'coaching'. Generally your average triathlete is going to get better by training on the swim, bike, and run of any kind. Add in some intensity and provided they can handle it without getting injured and they'll improve more. Repeat the same 20 weeks 2x a year and yeah, you'll probably continue to get better as the miles and years add up. There is only a certain amount of 'coaching' that can be done in the online world without seeing athletes.


Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [TigerBlood] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
TigerBlood wrote:
I wonder how many people have read this entire thread (as I have), and are still not swayed either way by the arguments; but have lost a measure of respect for some of the posters therein.

As I was finishing up reading through this thread, I was thinking of posting the same thing. I wish we had the "like" button already.

From this reader's perspective, Jordan's comment referring to EN as "hacks" is a negative reflection on his character.

It seems to me that that JR is more concerned about the fact that EN refers to themselves as "elite" rather than AG coaches. It's a lot like getting ruffled over a 70.3 athlete telling his buddies he's an ironman.

@christopher_borden •
Spinning Spoke • Dimond Bikes • Flo Cycling • Castelli Cycling
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [tucktri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Here is an AIS study, it indicates that elites can handle bricks and implies that others do not.

Conclusion: Cycling does not adversely influence neuromuscular control or run performance in elite international triathletes. The preservation of neuromuscular control and performance during running after cycling is a unique feature of highly performing elite international triathletes and may be a reason for their success.


J. Bonacci1,2* &#61607; P. Saunders2 &#61607; M. Alexander3 &#61607; P. Blanch2 &#61607; A. Chapman1,2 &#61607; B. vicenzino1 1The University of Queensland &#61607; 2Australian Institute of Sport &#61607; 3La Trobe University


http://sma.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/634-SMA_ConferenceAbstracts_FINAL.pdf
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [tucktri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Does cycling effect motor coordination of the leg during running in elite triathletes?

Andrew R. Chapman, Bill Vicenzino, Peter Blanch, Steve Dowlan, Paul W. Hodges

//

I don't know if I have permission to repost the study. I was given it by a woman who was advising my wife when she was trying to make the Olympic team for Canada. So not sure about usage. This study is from AIS & University of Brisbane.

The general conclusions - and it's important to note that they were examining ELITE (!) triathletes (no discussion of what "elite" meant though) - were that:
1) there is a huge variance in how coordinated athletes are in running off the bike. I.e., some were very good, and the EMG analysis showed that they transferred from cycling-specific lower-leg muscle recruitment patterns to running-specific lower-leg muscle recruitment patterns almost immediately

2) for those that did NOT make the "switch" immediately, there was evidence of improvement as a result of targeted transition-run training. This is based off a comparison of the results of this study - which used elite athletes - with previous studies using non-elites that showed that elites demonstrated more rapid and complete changeover in muscle recruitment patterns; obviously some room here for bias, as it's possible to conclude that - at least looking only at this study and it's conclusions - that it wasn't the training, rather it was a predisposition to being able to effectively change that made these athletes elite. It's a bit of a chicken and egg. Are they elite because they naturally demonstrate a the ability to rapidly change recruitment? Or did they develop it? It's worth noting that, per #1, there was substantial variance in how quickly/completely changeover did occur.

Sample size was small, and obviously enormously biased based off self-selection. Only 16 athletes, and all of them falling into a small niche.

Looking at this in conjunction with other studies, it seems reasonable to conclude the running off the bike is a skill, and like most skills, some people have more natural aptitude for it than others but that those who do not have natural aptitude can improve it through practice.

Given the admitted variance in skill level, I think it'd be foolish (in reply to another poster) to try to estimate "time savings" from doing transition runs vs. not doing them. It's like swimming in a wetsuit in training sometimes. How much is it worth, time wise? I dunno. Some people are very comfortable just getting in their wetsuit and swimming. But *in my experience,* a wetsuit changes your stroke enough - or should change it if you want to swim in your wetsuit most effectively - and certainly loads your shoulders more vs. non-wetsuit swimming that it's worth spending time swimming in your wetsuit besides just on race day. The obvious similarity to transition running (and riding the TT bike, etc) applies - the more overall experience you have, the less important it becomes. I.e., Andy Potts needs less practice in his wetsuit than an average AG athlete. And Macca, who has been racing for 20+ years, probably needs even less.

It's important, however, to recognize when something is a skill - like running off the bike - because it's makes it easier to understand why the more you have done it, the less you need to do it, and also why it is important to practice it - because it's fundamentally different (as the above study shows) than just running (at least in certain facets).

I'd say this is the huge fallacy that the EN coaches might be making in how they came to their faulty conclusion. They look over a large "data set" of past performances and make conclusions only based on that data set and apply them universally. I.e., it would be illogical to make training advice for new triathletes based off the experiences of seasoned triathletes if you recognized appropriately that transition running is a skill. In other words, the very reason that you might conclude that it makes no difference if someone runs off the bike or not is because that person (or persons) has done so much running off the bike over the course of their career. The absence of this rather glaringly (to me) obvious factor in the EN blog post is striking. It's folly to universally downplay the benefit of bricks for triathletes who have very little experience running off the bike because of "data" gathered that could easily be skewed by a significant presence of athletes with a large amount of transition run experience. Given that EN is not exactly a newbie-oriented site/group, I think that's HIGHLY likely.

It's much more appropriate - though hardly revolutionary - to simply say something along the lines of "frequency of transition runs offers diminishing returns," and to suggest that, after you've been doing the sport for a while, it might be time to reconsider the frequency of bricks. That's a far cry from the very black-and-white prescription which they wrote on the blog that advises never doing t-runs. And people accused me of being black and white...

Head on over to Let'sRun and read Canova's description of his athlete's training leading into the World Champs for some insight into just how "gray" training actually is.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Paulo Sousa] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Paulo Sousa wrote:
For sure, anonymous trolls on the Internet are usually much better coaches than I am.

Owned.

___________________________________________________________

"A wise man once told me......God doesn't call the equipped, he equips the called."
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Borden] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Borden wrote:
TigerBlood wrote:
I wonder how many people have read this entire thread (as I have), and are still not swayed either way by the arguments; but have lost a measure of respect for some of the posters therein.

As I was finishing up reading through this thread, I was thinking of posting the same thing. I wish we had the "like" button already.

From this reader's perspective, Jordan's comment referring to EN as "hacks" is a negative reflection on his character.

It seems to me that that JR is more concerned about the fact that EN refers to themselves as "elite" rather than AG coaches. It's a lot like getting ruffled over a 70.3 athlete telling his buddies he's an ironman.

What I primarily object to is the advice itself. The fact that such advice is being given out by someone claiming to be an "elite" coach makes it even worse.

To reference your example, I'm taking issue because people are saying they're triathletes because in their lifetime they have gone for a swim, and have ridden a bike, and have run. That's just incorrect. Now, if that person(s) said they did an Ironman, I would find that even more egregiously incorrect.

It's like that Crossfit dude that said he could make Macca into a faster triathlete, but that he'd need something like a year to teach him how to actually move properly first or some such nonsense. I didn't pay much mind to that, because the guy obviously was talking out of his ass. But with EN, there is an - unfortunately - large cult following that is shelling out good money for bad advice from unqualified individuals purporting to be something they aren't without being obviously not credible. That, to me, is more damaging than an obvious charlatan.

In other words, if you give your money to some homeless guy in a rags who claims to be a hedge fund manager, you are an idiot. If you give it to some con man in a three piece suit with a bunch of fancy presentations and what appear to be credentials, well then, I'd say somewhat shame on you for not doing due diligence, but more blame on him.

The following is just bad - and incorrect - advice, especially when given without ANY sort of qualifier:

- In fact, [brick workouts] should be entirely avoided unless your daily schedule requires you combine your bike and run workouts!

- A run off the bike is nothing more than another run on tired legs.

Those two items are simply incorrect. The latter is totally untrue. The former is untrue when given as general and universal advice.

It is THAT which I take issue with. The fact that such advice is given by someone (or someones) that calls himself an elite coach makes it even worse, but it's by no means the primary source of my irritation...

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Rappstar wrote:
It's much more appropriate - though hardly revolutionary - to simply say something along the lines of "frequency of transition runs offers diminishing returns," and to suggest that, after you've been doing the sport for a while, it might be time to reconsider the frequency of bricks.

Jordan,
No offense but did you conveniently skip over this part of Rich's article?

Quote:
There is No Magical Run-Off-the-Bike Fitness
A run off the bike is nothing more than another run on tired legs. Before we go further, let’s be clear that there is some value to running off the bike on tired legs:
  • Mental Value: Feel it, taste it, experience it so that your first experience with running off the bike isn’t on race day.
  • Pacing Value: Specifically, the disconnect between Rate of Perceived Exertion (RPE) and Pace. You’ve just been pedaling a bike for hours and now you are running. It’s very common for you to feel like you’re running at Pace X, only to actually be running at Pace Y. Generally, Y is faster than X and, because everyone around you is running too fast, you are getting a lot of feedback that Y is the correct pace, that you’re not running fast enough and that X, the slower (correct!) pace, is wayyy too slow! A brick run will help you experience this disconnect and build your confidence to run your pace vs the pace that everyone else is running in the first critical miles on race day.

But once you get these two points above…you get it. Continuing to do brick after brick after these lessons have been learned is the training equivalent of hammering a nail that’s already in the wall: easy to do yet causes peripheral damage and yields minimal results. As coaches, we’ve learned that the key to becoming a faster runner is to create opportunities for you to run faster on fresher legs.

Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [phabio] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
phabio wrote:
Jordan, seriously, your arrogance is appalling. If you don't like the coaches at EN, you're well entitled to that opinion. If you think that they're doing their athletes a universal disservice by telling them that their time is better spent with their family for 6 months of the year than chasing 5-8 minutes of improvement, again, you're totally entitled to that opinion. But you insult literally hundreds of people who read this forum, and who patronize the sponsors that pay your salary, when you decide that your opinion gives you the right to attack them, and when you decide that somehow you're the only arbiter of what is right and what is wrong. Open your mind, dude, there's more than one way for people to achieve their goals in life. Maybe not everybody out there wants what you want...
I agree 100%. Rappstar's ego and attitude do not represent any professionalism at all. Disgusting.


_____________________
Don't forget to attack!
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [TigerBlood] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
TigerBlood wrote:
I wonder how many people have read this entire thread (as I have), and are still not swayed either way by the arguments; but have lost a measure of respect for some of the posters therein.
Well said. Can not believe the arrogance of some people.


_____________________
Don't forget to attack!
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Cobble] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Cobble wrote:
phabio wrote:
Jordan, seriously, your arrogance is appalling. If you don't like the coaches at EN, you're well entitled to that opinion. If you think that they're doing their athletes a universal disservice by telling them that their time is better spent with their family for 6 months of the year than chasing 5-8 minutes of improvement, again, you're totally entitled to that opinion. But you insult literally hundreds of people who read this forum, and who patronize the sponsors that pay your salary, when you decide that your opinion gives you the right to attack them, and when you decide that somehow you're the only arbiter of what is right and what is wrong. Open your mind, dude, there's more than one way for people to achieve their goals in life. Maybe not everybody out there wants what you want...
I agree 100%. Rappstar's ego and attitude do not represent any professionalism at all. Disgusting.

At last check, he is an athlete, and not a professional personality. Professionalism ends where associations end. If I call you a rotten prick on an internet forum, does it make me an unprofessional engineer?

Unfortunately, this thread has jumped the shark. It was much better when we were still debating those disgustingly-useless brick runs that far too many people seem to be fond of.

"The right to party is a battle we have fought, but we'll surrender and go Amish... NOT!" -Wayne Campbell
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Borden] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Borden wrote:
TigerBlood wrote:
I wonder how many people have read this entire thread (as I have), and are still not swayed either way by the arguments; but have lost a measure of respect for some of the posters therein.


As I was finishing up reading through this thread, I was thinking of posting the same thing. I wish we had the "like" button already.

From this reader's perspective, Jordan's comment referring to EN as "hacks" is a negative reflection on his character.
Agreed. It's ironic too how there's nothing more unacademic than criticizing the writer rather than the work. Poor form.
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
 
“Arrogance on the part of the meritorious is even more offensive to us than the arrogance of those without merit: for merit itself is offensive.”
&#8213; Friedrich Nietzsche

-

The Triathlon Squad

Like us on Facebook!!!
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Paulo Sousa] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Paulo Sousa wrote:

“Arrogance on the part of the meritorious is even more offensive to us than the arrogance of those without merit: for merit itself is offensive.”
&#8213; Friedrich Nietzsche

BAM!


<If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough>
Get Fitter!
Proud member of the Smartasscrew, MONSTER CLUB
Get your FIX today?
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Is a brick workout like doing pullups after a swim.
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Paulo Sousa] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Exactly. Shame on Wallstreet, accountants, businessman, and cpa's for calling out that Madoff guy.
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Paulo Sousa] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Paulo Sousa wrote:
“Arrogance on the part of the meritorious is even more offensive to us than the arrogance of those without merit: for merit itself is offensive.”
&#8213; Friedrich Nietzsche

Convictions are more dangerous foes of truth than lies.

-same german dude
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Quel] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Quel wrote:
Paulo Sousa wrote:

“Arrogance on the part of the meritorious is even more offensive to us than the arrogance of those without merit: for merit itself is offensive.”
&#8213; Friedrich Nietzsche


Convictions are more dangerous foes of truth than lies.

-same german dude



"F is for friends who do stuff together! U is for you and me! N is for anywhere at anytime at all down here in the deep blue sea!"

-Spongebob Squarepants


Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [SM937] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
SM937 wrote:
Paulo Sousa wrote:

For sure, anonymous trolls on the Internet are usually much better coaches than I am.


Owned.

Except that he wasn't anonymous.
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [AlanShearer] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
ah, looks like the science of it has quite recently been settled, in this article

-mike

____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Cobble] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Actually, I find his candor refreshing.


Damn, that's a cold ass honkey.
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I just think that brick training is almost as good as a triathlon itself, without the swimming (if its just a bike/run workout). If the EN coaches said that more race experience is not beneficial and that training and not racing will improve your performance, would we all find that puzzling? I THINK SO.

Brick workouts are basically mini triathlons so its not just about how your legs feel or about muscle fibre usage after 10 minutes of running after biking, its about how your ankles feel, your calves feel, cramping etc, how your entire body responds to continous exercise and stress for a few hours, digestion. As triathletes, we find out all sorts of things when we brick train. We find out what material makes our nipples hurt, we find out if running in socks is a good idea, we find out if we have enough energy to run at race pace after a long bike ride, we find out if going hard or going out easy after t2 is a good idea (and it doesn't just take one brick workout to find that out).

So...basically brick training is as close to a triathlon as it gets without actually doing a triathlon. I think what the EN coaches think is that the triathletes that do bricks do them all the time and don't do isolated running/biking workouts. I honestly doubt there are many of them out there. I am going to assume that its just common sense to mix it up at least. If there are any triathletes out there that always run after they bike and NEVER do isolated bike/run workouts, let everyone know. Otherwise these EN guys are just wasting their time going after idiot triathletes. Serioulsy, has anyone heard of a triathlete saying that they do too many brick workouts?
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Paulo Sousa] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Paulo Sousa wrote:
Yes?

I get it now - running off the bike is a skill exercise, not a fitness exercise. I even got it before Jordan posted it, above.

FWIW, I usually figure out what you mean; sometimes it just takes me a while to get there.
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Exactly. It's specific triathlon training to reduce the amount of time it takes for your run legs to return "as normal". It can make you faster over the early portions of the run because it allows your stride off the bike to be more "normal".

The specific benefits, however, plateau after those first few miles. Once your legs return to "normal", it's just like any other run (except now you're tired, not running as fast, and potentially more injury prone because you're forcing a run). The best "brick" is actually a short "transition run", where you run until your legs return to "normal", then jog home easy. I believe Roch Frey, amongst others, had advocated that almost every bike should be followed up by a short transition run to develop that specificity. The long/hard runs, however, should be reserved for seperate workouts where run fitness is the primary focus.

The "brick" has gotten some mythical status where longer=better. But, the practical evidence for long bricks just isn't there, physiologically. The arguments for a "long brick" should not be fitness based; they are either psychological benefits (and completely person dependent) or practicing nutrition (also person dependent). In both cases, I would argue more could be gained from a shorter (sprint if you're training for an Oly, Oly if you're training for a half, half if you're training for IM) race.

------------------------
Tri Authenticiy
"Trial of Miles; Miles of Trials. How could he make them understand?"--John L. Parker, Once a Runner
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [tri_kid] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
tri_kid wrote:
I just think that brick training is almost as good as a triathlon itself, without the swimming (if its just a bike/run workout). If the EN coaches said that more race experience is not beneficial and that training and not racing will improve your performance, would we all find that puzzling? I THINK SO.

Brick workouts are basically mini triathlons so its not just about how your legs feel or about muscle fibre usage after 10 minutes of running after biking, its about how your ankles feel, your calves feel, cramping etc, how your entire body responds to continous exercise and stress for a few hours, digestion. As triathletes, we find out all sorts of things when we brick train. We find out what material makes our nipples hurt, we find out if running in socks is a good idea, we find out if we have enough energy to run at race pace after a long bike ride, we find out if going hard or going out easy after t2 is a good idea (and it doesn't just take one brick workout to find that out).

So...basically brick training is as close to a triathlon as it gets without actually doing a triathlon. I think what the EN coaches think is that the triathletes that do bricks do them all the time and don't do isolated running/biking workouts. I honestly doubt there are many of them out there. I am going to assume that its just common sense to mix it up at least. If there are any triathletes out there that always run after they bike and NEVER do isolated bike/run workouts, let everyone know. Otherwise these EN guys are just wasting their time going after idiot triathletes. Serioulsy, has anyone heard of a triathlete saying that they do too many brick workouts?


Hello, my name is Mike and I ride my bike before every run. 6 days a week. I've been doing it for about 5 years. I can ride my bike faster than I could 5 years ago. I can run faster than I could 5 years ago. My stand alone 1/2 marathon PR is faster than it was 5 years ago. My bike and run splits in triathlons are faster than they were 5 years ago. Would all of this have happened if I had done stand alone bike and run sessions instead? Perhaps. Would I be even faster today had I done stand alone sessions? Perhaps. Do I do bike/run sessions because they have some benefit that is greater than the sum of their parts? No, I do them because I have a family, and a job, and I like to ride and run (and I wouldn't be able to ride and run as much as I do without combining the sessions). I'm faster than I was when I started, so I'm happy with that. Am I an idiot triathlete? I don't know (actually I do). But I do know that I've been able to ride and run my way to through the field at most triathlons. Now, it's time to head out the door for a brick!

Mike Sparks


I have competed well, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
Last edited by: Sparks: Oct 28, 11 4:37
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I do bricks for 2 reasons. The #1 reason is since I work a full time job I do a brick workout in order to fit in all my planned running, this allows for longer rest/recovery periods (eg. rahter than running Tuesday AM and biking Tuesday PM, I just do both Tuesday PM which allows my to get more sleep on Monday night). The other reason is that I don't race very much (4-5x per year) so in order tomaintain the 'skill' of running off the bike I need to practice it more often than someone who is racing 15+ races/year. On average it's one brick per week and I usually try and make it specific to what I'm training for, if I'm training for a IM then I'll probably do my brick run off my long ride, if I'm training for something shorter I'll usually try and do my brick run off a short(er) intense ride.
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [burnman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I guess I'm just dense and old. How does running off the bike put wasted miles on your legs? Do you think not running at all is better than running "junk miles"? If you run 5-6-7 times a week your legs are going to be tired. Why is doing 1 or 2 of those runs off the bike a wasted effort? Off the bike or not, some of those runs are going to be easy not quality. Some of those "quality" workouts are going to be done on tired legs. Should you not do them? Do you run to your potential on every run?
When I am training for an IM I am tired and sore. If I skipped a workout everytime I had a tired body part, arm, leg etc. I would not be doing but maybe 3 workouts a week. That's what I've never understood about the whole wasted miles, doing your long run after your long bike, bricks, tired legs etc. I do not understand how you can train for an IM and be 100% recovered anytime you do a quality workout. Sometimes I feel stronger than others and I get stronger as the program progresses but I have never been 100% recovered for a work out in the last 10 years.
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [phabio] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Quote:
On the question of the definition of Elite, I'd suggest that any coach who is able to get the best out of the athletes they've chosen to service should be 'allowed' to hang a shingle with a superlative.

Based on that definition, does that make them "elite" coaches? They basically tell their athletes not to swim because the return on investment isn't great enough. Is that getting the best out of your athlete?

My big problem with them is that they frame their arguments as though their way is the absolute best way to train for triathlon and everyone else is wasting their time (even though those are proven methods) when I believe that what they really mean is that it's the best way for their clients (athletes with families and limited time to train) to train for triathlon. When they establish credibility they speak in terms of quantity rather than quality and their business plan appears to be based on quantity, yet they use quality over quantity when selling their training plans.

I don't have a problem with them targeting triathletes with limited time to train and developing training plans for that target audience. That's a viable business, obviously, but that doesn't make their way the best way to train for triathlon. And coaching random age groupers to PRs doesn't make someone an elite coach, in my opinion.

That said, I didn't know that EN claimed to be elite coaches.
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Wow--this is quite a thread. I suggest we abandon it and go train. Training is fun. Life is short. Saying negative things about people's character diminishes both the target and the person saying the negative things. I know, I've made that mistake too many times.

Seems to me if you are a serious triathlete there is plenty of room in your training year to try bricks for a while and see if you think they help you--help you physically and (more importantly) help you maintain and maximize your motivation to keep training. If they do, keep doing them. My own personal experiment of one has led me to conclude that I'm happier and more motivated when I do a long ride to wait a bit before I do a run--I find I just don't like to do a run after a 5+ hour ride. I seem to have a better quality and more benenficial run when I wait a couple of hours. So I don't do bricks that often anymore ( a little at the beginning of each season) and I think I'm a better triathlete for it. I know I enjoy my training more and at 54 years of age that is very important to me.

As for judging and labelling other people--I find that the true value of ST is to consider (new) ideas and decide for myself if I want to try them and see if they help me with my triathlon fitness. The source of the ideas is not important if the idea is good. I will say that I have learned some valuable things from both Jordan and from the EN guys and I hope to continue to do so in the future.

OK--long run time--have to bundle up, it's getting cold!

Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [TigerBlood] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
TigerBlood wrote:
I wonder how many people have read this entire thread (as I have), and are still not swayed either way by the arguments; but have lost a measure of respect for some of the posters therein.

I think there might be more than a few readers that agree with you.

But since a few others have gotten side-tracked into other topics, perhaps I can offer an explanation. It's not 100% black and white, but there is evidence to suggest that bike-run (and, actually, swim-bike) workouts do have benefits for triathlon, but there are some big caveats regarding exactly how you execute them.

So, about the article, I know little about EN, but the main issue is that their argument skirts the issue of training specificity, which has some evidence to back it up. But what is specificity? It is a training principle that essentially says that the best way to train for 'X' is to do 'X'.

As an analogy, training specificity says that the best way to learn to run a 10-miler as fast as possible is to train by running many 10-milers at the fastest pace you possibly can. However, while there is little disagreement that this is in principle correct, there are also some practical problems with this approach. For most athletes in most situations, while you would get a somewhat effective and highly specific training adaptation from running this way, the recovery penalty is just too great. You would need to spend too much time recovering from your many all-out 10-milers that your training progress, while it would be substantial, would not be as rapid as it could be.

And that is where the idea of interval training comes in. Basically, interval training allows you to get nearly the same (but not exactly the same) training adaptation as you would from running multiple all-out 10 milers, but the modified structure of interval training allows you to spend more time running faster with less time needed for recovery (during the workout, and after).

For triathlon, "bricks" are effective in getting training adaptations. But, much like running an all-out 10-miler, doing a tough brick session can also be very hard on your body. So should you do any brick training? Well, if you need to be fast off the bike, yes.

But most bricks should be treated like high-intensity training sessions. Because if you do a lot of brick sessions or do long distance and high intensity bricks, you will have a big recovery penalty. So there is little reason to do that. Instead, like interval training, you should do brick training selectively and, depending on your target event distance, you typically should do them in shorter combinations and distances than your actual race distance.

Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook

--
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
rcmioga wrote:
Saying negative things about people's character diminishes both the target and the person saying the negative things. I know, I've made that mistake too many times.

Well said.

Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook

--
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Should we call you a "hack" professional.....afterall you haven't won Kona!!!!!

Jordan, you WERE one on my favorite Pros, I could care less if you disagree with ENs coach or philosophy (in fact I hope nobody in the 50-54 AG does) but your personal attacks on EN coaches and team is very distasteful!

Michael in Kansas
"Once you learn to quit, it becomes a habit"
"Its not whether you get knocked down, it's whether you get up" Lombardi
Last edited by: jayhawk.: Oct 28, 11 6:19
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Paulo Sousa] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Didn't he die of syphillus?

Styrrell
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [jayhawk.] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
What I disagree with for Paulo and Rapp is they seem to think their is Elite and Hack with no in between. I think of both of them a pretty damn good as a coach and athlete. But neither of them is absolute top teir. If IM was in the OG they wouldn't be a favorite to make the team or coach a athlete at this point. So yes by their own assesment they are hacks, but in the eyes of most everyone else certainly not.

Styrrell
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Back to the OP... I don't know how you can really avoid them. You'd have to try really hard to avoid bricks. I do 4-5 swims, 5 bikes, and 6-7run's a week. Eventually I'm doing brick workouts. I'd have to make a serious effort to stop training for a few hours and train again later. But I'm sure according them and some others, half my workouts are crap and I shouldn't be doing them because they have no intensity and are meaningless anyway.
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [xtremrun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
xtremrun wrote:
I guess I'm just dense and old. How does running off the bike put wasted miles on your legs? Do you think not running at all is better than running "junk miles"? If you run 5-6-7 times a week your legs are going to be tired. Why is doing 1 or 2 of those runs off the bike a wasted effort? Off the bike or not, some of those runs are going to be easy not quality. Some of those "quality" workouts are going to be done on tired legs. Should you not do them? Do you run to your potential on every run?
When I am training for an IM I am tired and sore. If I skipped a workout everytime I had a tired body part, arm, leg etc. I would not be doing but maybe 3 workouts a week. That's what I've never understood about the whole wasted miles, doing your long run after your long bike, bricks, tired legs etc. I do not understand how you can train for an IM and be 100% recovered anytime you do a quality workout. Sometimes I feel stronger than others and I get stronger as the program progresses but I have never been 100% recovered for a work out in the last 10 years.

If you're time-crunched, or simply have nothing better to do after your bike ride, then by all means run to your heart's content. When compared to the running that you would do following a standard recovery period, the exertion and stress will be comparable but the quality will be lower. So, why not save that 4 miles for later in the day, or the next morning when your run quality more closely resembles the RPE? That is the truth of day-to-day training. You will inevitably find yourself working through fatigue, but you don't necessarily sandwich all of your weekly workouts into a 2-3 day stretch, conceding that "I'll be tired anyhow, so I may as well just get them done." You implement day-to-day recovery. Sure, you never end up with completely fresh legs, but that down time gets you a hell of a lot closer to your true potential.

The problem with brick running mentality is that nearly everyone using them thinks that they contain some super-concentrated running benefit that simply doesn't exist. The original intent was quite practical: get off the bike in a hurry and make your legs turnover. The transition period from cycling legs to running legs is very brief, unless you've severely fouled up other elements of your race execution. The human body is extremely efficient and highly adaptive. The faster you brick, the faster your legs will make the transition. So, if you've accomplished the goals of the workout in 5 minutes, why continue to pound out further mileage on tired legs?

"The right to party is a battle we have fought, but we'll surrender and go Amish... NOT!" -Wayne Campbell
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Supersquid] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Supersquid wrote:
Quote:
On the question of the definition of Elite, I'd suggest that any coach who is able to get the best out of the athletes they've chosen to service should be 'allowed' to hang a shingle with a superlative.


Based on that definition, does that make them "elite" coaches? They basically tell their athletes not to swim because the return on investment isn't great enough. Is that getting the best out of your athlete?

My big problem with them is that they frame their arguments as though their way is the absolute best way to train for triathlon and everyone else is wasting their time (even though those are proven methods) when I believe that what they really mean is that it's the best way for their clients (athletes with families and limited time to train) to train for triathlon. When they establish credibility they speak in terms of quantity rather than quality and their business plan appears to be based on quantity, yet they use quality over quantity when selling their training plans.

I don't have a problem with them targeting triathletes with limited time to train and developing training plans for that target audience. That's a viable business, obviously, but that doesn't make their way the best way to train for triathlon. And coaching random age groupers to PRs doesn't make someone an elite coach, in my opinion.

That said, I didn't know that EN claimed to be elite coaches.

I won't disagree with paragraphs 2 & 3 at all. Paragraph 1 though... they advocate no swimming in the off-season. More on that in a second but that's part of the problem with some of the EN hating on this forum is because of irresponsible statements like what you typed. Someone reads that who doesn't know any better and makes the assumption that there's no swimming in the EN plans at all. Which couldn't be any further from the truth. The short course, HIM and IM plans are chock full of swimming that you'd expect from any training plan. I'd argue that there's too much swimming in the short course and HIM training plans but that's my opinion.

As for the off-season no swimming advice - they feel you get a much bigger bang return on your time in the off-season by killing yourself on the bike and run. They also feel the off-season is a time to decompress, enjoy the holidays and re-acclimate yourself with your society. Off-season weeks are about 6 hours per week of workouts. The workouts are ass-kickers but there's no more 10-15 hour weeks of workouts we're accustomed to during the race year. I think it's hard to argue with any of that reasoning.

Swimming is the shortest duration event of a triathlon... by far. The ratio is "generally" around 10% swim, 50% bike and 40% run - give or take. The EN philosophy is that much greater strides can be made concentrating on the two events that are a) less technique dependent and b) account for 90% of one's race. Once again, kind of hard to argue with that. People around here often perpetuate the myth the EN coaches completely frown upon swimming in the OS and lash out at those that do. That couldn't be further from the truth. What they say is there's no sense in swimming for three hours per week for two or three months in the OS unless you're going to make a real concerted effort to become a better swimmer from a technique perspective. Assuming fitness is not the issue (and it shouldn't be for any EN athletes following the training plans), a 2:20/100m swimmer swimming on their own with their flawed technique isn't going to get that much faster. Why waste three hours per week for three months to get a minute or two or three faster when you could run or bike more and certainly gain far more than that. The EN coaches applaud anyone who seeks proper swim coaching in the OS. They're all for swimming in the OS if the return is there. If that 2:20/100m swimmer takes some lessons, learns some better stroke mechanics, swims a ton and comes out a 1:50/100m swimmer... the EN coaches would be very happy and applaud the effort. That made sense. Flailing around in the pool for three hours per week for three months to go from a 2:20/100m swimmer to a 2:16/100m swimmer - they'd probably see that as a waste of time.

I don't 100% subscribe to the no swimming in the OS philosophy. I like it as a form of exercise. I don't get any faster though. I've pretty much reached my adult onset swimming technique ceiling and I'm looking to do something about that this winter.

Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [GMAN 19030] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
IM LOU 2009: Swam year round=1:04
IMLOU 2010: Swam year round=1:04
IMLOU 2011: Took off 4 months in Winter=1:02

Michael in Kansas
"Once you learn to quit, it becomes a habit"
"Its not whether you get knocked down, it's whether you get up" Lombardi
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Cobble] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Professionalism is key to having a good discussion. Here is a great example of "keeping it classy": http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...post=1468474#1468474
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [jayhawk.] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Here's another data point.

Since fall 2009, I have missed 6 months of swim training (3 months via injury, 3 months by choice).

A progressive decline in my swim performance, culminating with what I consider to be a rather embarrasing swim in Kona a few weeks ago.

I can't avoid the 3 months I missed due to injury in early 2010, but you can bet I won't be taking 3 months off of swimming ever again.
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
and, actually, swim-bike

Aha! The Brick that no one talks about!!

Now we are getting somewhere.



Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [AlexG] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
AlexG wrote:
Back to the OP... I don't know how you can really avoid them. You'd have to try really hard to avoid bricks. I do 4-5 swims, 5 bikes, and 6-7run's a week. Eventually I'm doing brick workouts. I'd have to make a serious effort to stop training for a few hours and train again later. But I'm sure according them and some others, half my workouts are crap and I shouldn't be doing them because they have no intensity and are meaningless anyway.

I think that a lot of the confusion in this thread comes from associating bricks with back-to-back workouts. A brick is designed to emulate T2 in a race. Get off your bike, throw on your sneakers, and run like hell until your legs change gears. Back-to-back workouts are a scheduling strategy that tend to have a relaxed transition (5 minutes, an hour, etc.) and a more conservative start because the intention is to complete at least two full workouts. I do lots of back-to-back workouts (with only a handful of minutes in between), but they are seldom bricks.

"The right to party is a battle we have fought, but we'll surrender and go Amish... NOT!" -Wayne Campbell
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [jayhawk.] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
jayhawk. wrote:
IM LOU 2009: Swam year round=1:04
IMLOU 2010: Swam year round=1:04
IMLOU 2011: Took off 4 months in Winter=1:02


Not sure what the point of this is....
What were your bike and run times for all those years as well?
Last edited by: M~: Oct 28, 11 6:54
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Interesting comments...
my .02 is this: specificity in training is key. Doing a run after the bike in training does have a preparation benefit for the same situation in a race. Same reason I do "swikes", i.e., swim then a bike. Don't need to do 'em frequently, or even regularly, but if you want optimal performance, you better have done 'em. And a not well known principle for race-prep imagery- it will not help you learn a new skill, merely improve what you already know how to do. Which is another great reason to do an occasional workout as a mini-tri; even if you've been doing 'em for 15 years, never hurts to refresh muscle and cognitive patterning.

Another basic rule, we all know, probably have all broken it at least once, is you don't do anything for the first time in a race (unless it's set a PR). And the prinicple of specificity in training is well-established in research, in both exercise physiology and sport psychology.

Especially in terms of mental preparation, NOTHING beats the ability to say, at the start line, that you are COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY PREPARED. For me, that means my physical prep, mental preap, nutritional prep, has been as thorough as can be. That's when I can confidently race. If I haven't been able to prep well enough that I can honestly say that to myself, I still race, but my race will be based more on my ability to adapt my abilities on that day to the race demands. For me, that means the occasional brick. Even if it only means a 1% improvement, I still want it.
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Paulo Sousa] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Paulo Sousa wrote:
desert dude wrote:


Paulo said bricks are ridiculous and iirc there is no need for bricks. Jordan said there are neuro differences and you need to train the skill.


This is what I said:http://thetriathlonbook.blogspot.com/...unning-off-bike.html


QFT:

Quote:
It does not mean that training should emulate racing, it means training should reflect the needs and skills required by racing.


Has anyone demonstrated that a training adaptation occurs following bricks that alters the neuromuscular differences between running and running-after-cycling?

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
Last edited by: klehner: Oct 28, 11 6:58
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [klehner] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
klehner wrote:
Paulo Sousa wrote:
desert dude wrote:


Paulo said bricks are ridiculous and iirc there is no need for bricks. Jordan said there are neuro differences and you need to train the skill.


This is what I said:http://thetriathlonbook.blogspot.com/...unning-off-bike.html


QFT:

Quote:
It does not mean that training should emulate racing, it means training should reflect the needs and skills required by racing.


Has anyone demonstrated that a training adaptation occurs following bricks that alters the neuromuscular differences between running and running-after-cycling?

Personally, I want to be running my fastest/best at mile 16-26, not at mile .001. Bricks won't help me reach that goal.
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [sentania] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
You just convinced me to get back in the water after my two+ year hiatus..... asshole ;^)
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [M~] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Not sure what the point of this is....

Mark,

The point is that people seem to put stuff in silos and don't think that it is at all interrelated. The knee-jerk recreation is that, Wow I swam half of what I normally did for half the time this year and went 2 minutes faster! When it's most likely it was the two solid years of swimming that lead to the 2 minute improvement, not swimming less in this last year!



Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Supersquid] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Quote:
My big problem with them is that they frame their arguments as though their way is the absolute best way to train for triathlon and everyone else is wasting their time (even though those are proven methods) when I believe that what they really mean is that it's the best way for their clients (athletes with families and limited time to train) to train for triathlon. When they establish credibility they speak in terms of quantity rather than quality and their business plan appears to be based on quantity, yet they use quality over quantity when selling their training plans.

I don't have a problem with them targeting triathletes with limited time to train and developing training plans for that target audience. That's a viable business, obviously, but that doesn't make their way the best way to train for triathlon. And coaching random age groupers to PRs doesn't make someone an elite coach, in my opinion.

I think this is an issue with individual interpretation. I've known Rich since 2006, and I've always felt he has good things to say, although I'm not sure he always says it in the best possible way. I have noticed that for EN articles, he and Patrick tend to write a little sensationally, probably to spark exactly the type of debate that's going on now. However, knowing Rich, I'm pretty sure he doesn't think his way is the best way for everyone. In fact, ask him and he'll probably tell you that. EN is not designed specifically for the person who wants to devote his/her life to triathlon in order to become great. It's a framework for those of us who have significant time commitments outside of triathlon (work, family, other interests, etc.) and enjoy the sport and want to improve, but want to maximize our ROI. I think ChrisG said it very well. For 95% of us who are average, MOP AG triathletes, the low-hanging fruit is the bike and the run. It simply doesn't pay to spend 3+ hrs of precious time to improve our swim by 5 minutes when we could hit the bike or run for 10+ minutes each.


That said despite how they write these articles and the interpretation of the masses that EN espoused no OS swimming, no lifting and no bricks, I think you'll find relatively few EN athletes who actually do none of all three of these things. Inside the community, you'll also find many people (myself included) who challenge these ideas.


As far as the "elite" label, I think this is much ado about nothing. If you guys want to piss and moan about what makes an "elite" coach, then fine. Makes no difference to me.


-------------------------------------
Steve Perkins
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Fleck wrote:
Not sure what the point of this is....

Mark,

The point is that people seem to put stuff in silos and don't think that it is at all interrelated. The knee-jerk recreation is that, Wow I swam half of what I normally did for half the time this year and went 2 minutes faster! When it's most likely it was the two solid years of swimming that lead to the 2 minute improvement, not swimming less in this last year!

Aw man, you ruined it!!! I was hoping he would come back stating that swimming less made him swim faster....buzzkill. ;)
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [c.dan.jog] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
It's amazing how many peoples' feelings are hurt because someone who is a "certified Elite" called someone else in the industry who is a "self-proclaimed Elite" a hack. That is not a "personal attack"; it's simply an honest critique given by an accomplished, proven professional.
Last edited by: BT_DreamChaser: Oct 28, 11 7:15
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [eganski] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Well crap - sorry!
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [M~] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
2010 Bike: 6:16 Run 5:10
2011 Bike: 5:59 Run 5:01

Michael in Kansas
"Once you learn to quit, it becomes a habit"
"Its not whether you get knocked down, it's whether you get up" Lombardi
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [jayhawk.] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
jayhawk. wrote:
2010 Bike: 6:16 Run 5:10
2011 Bike: 5:59 Run 5:01

You have a swimming background don't you?
Did you leave out 2009 on purpose?
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Fleck wrote:
Not sure what the point of this is....

Mark,

The point is that people seem to put stuff in silos and don't think that it is at all interrelated. The knee-jerk recreation is that, Wow I swam half of what I normally did for half the time this year and went 2 minutes faster! When it's most likely it was the two solid years of swimming that lead to the 2 minute improvement, not swimming less in this last year!

Or the fact that IM Lou is in the Ohio River with varying current over the years. But yeah, it was the 4 months off from swimming that made him faster....
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [jayhawk.] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
jayhawk. wrote:
Jordan, you WERE one on my favorite Pros, I could care less if you disagree with ENs coach or philosophy (in fact I hope nobody in the 50-54 AG does) but your personal attacks on EN coaches and team is very distasteful!

Hmm...that statement is logically inconsistent. You obviously don't think that the EN approach is worthwhile, since you want everyone in your age group to follow their advice. Yet when Jordan calls them out on it, you get all bunched up? If you were having a casual conversation with someone, and they asked your opinion of EN stuff, what would your response be?

Jordan's a professional triathlete. From everything I have seen of his performance and writings, he is actively trying to improve the sport for all participants. He stands by that, and is not afraid to call people out on it.

Is everyone upset by the word "hack"? Look at the definition, and ignore the social "stigma" of the word.

Hack: A writer or journalist producing dull, unoriginal work: "a hack scriptwriter"

I would say that the EN coaches certainly fall into that category. They are, however, first class marketers. As far as their success, if you have 400+ athletes (Really? Two coaches with 400 athletes, and you think they are really giving individual attention?), then some of them are certainly bound to have success. After all, if you throw a bowl of spaghetti at the wall, some of the strands are going to stick. Nature of the beast.

I daresay that I could write four or five canned plans, put them up on a website and sell 1000 of them. Out of that 1000, I would bet that 50-100 athletes would have excellent success. Some because the plan suits their body, adaptation and response, etc. Some because it's at least structure and consistency where they didn't have that before. Would that make me an elite coach ala the EN guys? No. It'd make me a hack with good marketing.

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [sentania] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
sentania wrote:
Here's another data point.

Since fall 2009, I have missed 6 months of swim training (3 months via injury, 3 months by choice).

A progressive decline in my swim performance, culminating with what I consider to be a rather embarrasing swim in Kona a few weeks ago.

I can't avoid the 3 months I missed due to injury in early 2010, but you can bet I won't be taking 3 months off of swimming ever again.

Scott, was that because your swim fitness/endurance wasn't there or are you saying your technique went south? Or a combination? I think swim fitness snaps back pretty quick. I was at my absolute best level of swim fitness prior to IMFL last year. Swam a 1:05 there and didn't touch water again until mid-January. Within a month I was more or less back to my IMFL swim fitness level.

Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Devlin] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Sorry about that....I reread it....doesn't make sense does it! I was trying to imply that I hope my competition does NOT join EN. I need an advantage.

Michael in Kansas
"Once you learn to quit, it becomes a habit"
"Its not whether you get knocked down, it's whether you get up" Lombardi
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Devlin] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
   Well, given the tenor and language of his post on the topic, it appears Jordan has a hard-on for the model or coaches at EN, so he deviated from the article he should have been addressing. Paulo, well he's just paulo, but Jordan reacted emotionally, and put it in writing here, and that's something that folks here are not used to. shrug
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Devlin] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
And not that I hold this against them, but they are making some mighty fine bank.
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [jayhawk.] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
jayhawk. wrote:
IM LOU 2009: Swam year round=1:04
IMLOU 2010: Swam year round=1:04
IMLOU 2011: Took off 4 months in Winter=1:02

This is a good example of a similar logical fallacy that the EN coaches are making - making a general inference off nothing but a data set, and a limited one. It's called an "inductive fallacy," if you want to be really technical. What your conclusion - at least based off the data you presented - misses is the fact that the swim very often has a significant impact on the rest of the race. You see this all the time where people overcook the bike, and not just because they rode too hard, but because the swim took more out of them than they realize. I.e., what was the physiological cost of that 1:02 vs. the 1:04? Or it could disregard the productivity of YOUR SPECIFIC swim training; maybe you waste a lot of time in your swim training. Or both. You have three data points, and you draw a conclusion about the general. That is rarely a good idea.

To compare to the inductive fallacy of the EN coaches (and I'm simply making up a data set here, as they didn't provide their specific "evidence")
2005: 6 bricks/week, 70.3FL - 5:30 with 2hr run.
2006: 5 bricks/week, 70.3FL - 5:20 with 1:50hr run.
2007: 4 bricks/week, 70.3FL - 5:10 with 1:45hr run.
2008: 3 bricks/week, 70.3FL - 5:05 with 1:40hr run.
2009: 2 bricks/week, 70.3FL - 4:55 with 1:35hr run.
2010: 1 bricks/week, 70.3FL - 4:50 with 1:30hr run.
2011: 0 bricks/week, 70.3FL - 4:48 with 1:30hr run.

Inductive fallacy - doing bricks doesn't make you any faster; in fact, doing less is better. And doing none is best. [NB - this would be an inductive fallacy even if the above data set represented a "typical" trend for 100 or even 1,000 athletes]

Appropriate induction - experience / accumulated training volume improves performance. There is a diminishing return on the value of brick workouts as experience and accumulated training/racing experience increases. This is supported by both the data and also by scientific research. [this would be more correct the more athletes you saw exhibit this pattern, but it's a reasonable induction even based off a single data set because of outside information that confirms such an induction]

The problem with the first conclusion is that it is far too general, and it looks at a limited - and potentially heavily biased - set of data in isolation, without consideration of existing research that would either support - or not support - the conclusion made. It's an even bigger problem when you extrapolate out to an even more generalized group than is reasonable based off the data set. In other words, imagine giving advice to all human beings off a data set that was comprised 90% of males, without consideration of whether or not, as regards what you were making conclusions about, there was any noted difference between males and females. Add in the fact that absolutely no evidence at all is given for the "explanation" provided as to why bricks offer no benefit should be a clue to the inductive fallacy. In other words, if you suspect an inductive fallacy, the absence of any outside evidence supporting the claims made to fit the data (a narrative fallacy, of sorts...) ought to tip you off.

//

To GMAN - yes I saw that snippet, but since I've already alluded to the scientific research that demonstrates that running off the bike is a skill, that undercuts their statement that it doesn't need to be continually practiced. It just means you need to practice it LESS once you are experienced, not "never," as they advocate. I also object to the fact that it says "avoid them entirely..." in the opening paragraph - what most people will read, even if they don't read the entire article, which doesn't even leave room for that (IMO, inadequate) qualifier that they make later on. So they say, "never" initially, and then contradict themselves? What was that I called them again in my initial post...

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [GMAN 19030] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I'm not sure.

If I had to put my finger on it, I would say it's simply because my depth of fitness isn't there. As such I am forced to swim more conservatively to ensure that I'm not farked up by the time I get on the bike - which means my (swim) times are slower.

I couldn't swim December to march 2009/2010 - and spent a bunch of time getting my technique and fitness rebuilt - then I took 3 months off of swimming in the fall of 2010 - and spent the early part of this year restore my technique and fitness - so I've arrived at the big race time of year with less time of "real" swim training.

In an absolute sense - I can jump in the pool and drop out a 1,000 meter time trial effort - just as fast as I ever could, but it leaves me busted up a lot more.

I plan to fix that - and have been working to make sure that my swim at Arizona isn't nearly as disgraceful as at kona.
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Devlin] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Good post. I might add that it was obvious, at least to me, that Jordan's use of hack was pretty deliberate and not unwarranted. It's very much a term used to describe someone who produces something mediocre, or trite, or flimsy with intention of monetary/commercial success. That seems like a pretty accurate description. Their website basically screams bad infomercial.

It's not just that they've fooled people into thinking that selling them a cookie-cutter training plan is synonymous with "coaching," but that they're falsely claiming to be something they're not. The later bothers me more. As for the former, I guess I'm just jealous I haven't been able to make a boat-load of money by mass-producing bad coaching advice...

___________________
Twitter | Kancman | Blog
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Devlin] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Devlin wrote:
jayhawk. wrote:

Jordan, you WERE one on my favorite Pros, I could care less if you disagree with ENs coach or philosophy (in fact I hope nobody in the 50-54 AG does) but your personal attacks on EN coaches and team is very distasteful!


Hmm...that statement is logically inconsistent. You obviously don't think that the EN approach is worthwhile, since you want everyone in your age group to follow their advice. Yet when Jordan calls them out on it, you get all bunched up? If you were having a casual conversation with someone, and they asked your opinion of EN stuff, what would your response be?

Jordan's a professional triathlete. From everything I have seen of his performance and writings, he is actively trying to improve the sport for all participants. He stands by that, and is not afraid to call people out on it.

Is everyone upset by the word "hack"? Look at the definition, and ignore the social "stigma" of the word.

Hack: A writer or journalist producing dull, unoriginal work: "a hack scriptwriter"

I would say that the EN coaches certainly fall into that category. They are, however, first class marketers. As far as their success, if you have 400+ athletes (Really? Two coaches with 400 athletes, and you think they are really giving individual attention?), then some of them are certainly bound to have success. After all, if you throw a bowl of spaghetti at the wall, some of the strands are going to stick. Nature of the beast.

I daresay that I could write four or five canned plans, put them up on a website and sell 1000 of them. Out of that 1000, I would bet that 50-100 athletes would have excellent success. Some because the plan suits their body, adaptation and response, etc. Some because it's at least structure and consistency where they didn't have that before. Would that make me an elite coach ala the EN guys? No. It'd make me a hack with good marketing.

John

Dear Rapp Apologist,

Re: "Hack"- nice try. If your argument is that J Rapp used it in the denotative sense of the word, I'm not buying and I'm betting others aren't either. The term connotes incompetence and given the context in which it was used it's clear that's what Jordan was saying, but didn't apparently have the sack to actually say it. But it's a cool if a bit hackneyed debating technique to look up a word's definition in an attempt to alter how it's been used.

Re: Individual attention to 400 athletes. Was never, ever, a claim made anywhere by Rich or Patrick. In fact, their model is all about an affordable, online, coaching system- well thought out plans and online input from themselves and other experienced AG members, offered as an alternative to the "elite" coaches, who charge much more for individual attention (but train with power and pace and with plans very much like EN's).

This discussion going en fuego here is interesting. You have a generally highly regarded guy trashing EN and others piling on. Why so threatened? My theory is that they're doing something very right.

They have created a unique business model. It offers very good plans based upon power and pace, mostly. It is not your typical team in training, up with people, tri singles, go run 3.2 miles crapola. Rich and Patrick are both repeat KQers. They have been around, trained well, trained poorly, and have figured this stuff out, and the plans are good and their advice is sound. They communicate extremely well. Bottom line- you can, through EN, train at a high level of technical sophistication without hiring a $300 a month "elite" coach. And that does not sit well with many people for some reason. Hence the terms "hack" and "canned".

One size never fits all, and everyone trains a little differently. You do what works for you. But EN has nailed it as far as a fundamentally sound approach through using power and pace. And it's never been targeted towards pros or elites. It's for typical AGers.
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [GMAN 19030] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Quote:
I won't disagree with paragraphs 2 & 3 at all. Paragraph 1 though... they advocate no swimming in the off-season. More on that in a second but that's part of the problem with some of the EN hating on this forum is because of irresponsible statements like what you typed. Someone reads that who doesn't know any better and makes the assumption that there's no swimming in the EN plans at all. Which couldn't be any further from the truth. The short course, HIM and IM plans are chock full of swimming that you'd expect from any training plan. I'd argue that there's too much swimming in the short course and HIM training plans but that's my opinion.

I meant off-season. My mistake.
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Devlin] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Quote:
if you have 400+ athletes (Really? Two coaches with 400 athletes, and you think they are really giving individual attention?)

Nobody at EN believes or expects they are getting 1 on 1 coaching with personal, individual attention, and that's not how they market it. If that's what you think, you clearly have not read their stuff, or are selectively interpreting it. Everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion on their methods, but don't make things up.


-------------------------------------
Steve Perkins
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [klehner] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
klehner wrote:
Paulo Sousa wrote:
desert dude wrote:


Paulo said bricks are ridiculous and iirc there is no need for bricks. Jordan said there are neuro differences and you need to train the skill.


This is what I said:http://thetriathlonbook.blogspot.com/...unning-off-bike.html


QFT:

Quote:
It does not mean that training should emulate racing, it means training should reflect the needs and skills required by racing.


Has anyone demonstrated that a training adaptation occurs following bricks that alters the neuromuscular differences between running and running-after-cycling?

Just to bump this: I'm interested too.

jaretj
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [monty] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
monty wrote:
2004, ha! We knew this is 1985. There is really nothing wrong with the occasional brick, probably does not hurt. More like a long workout. But as stated, once you have a bunch of real races under your belt, you pretty much know what to expect, and doing a slower version of it in workout does not help you deal with it. Train fast to race fast, pretty much been around since the beginning of the sport.
x2, Monty...
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [McNulty] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
McNulty wrote:
This discussion going en fuego here is interesting. You have a generally highly regarded guy trashing EN and others piling on. Why so threatened? My theory is that they're doing something very right.

I have read through the whole thread.  I haven't actually seen a whole lot of piling on, particularly by ST standards.  And I haven't seen anyone who feels threatened by EN.  

I have seen a number of "supporters" of EN jump in to defend.  Some of these "supporters" including you seem to be threatened for some reason.

EN is most definitely doing something very right.  Marketing and making money are at least 2 of those things.  I think it is a fine business model.  

I "joined" for free last year.  Seems like a fun place to hang out.  Plans weren't for me.  I didn't feel anyone there was a "hack".
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [sentania] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Quote:
I plan to fix that - and have been working to make sure that my swim at Arizona isn't nearly as disgraceful as at kona.


That's a little harsh.
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [McNulty] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
McNulty wrote:
In fact, their model is all about an affordable, online, coaching system-

I don't think $130 bucks a month for a prefabricated plan is 'affordable.'


Quote:
They have created a unique business model. It offers very good plans based upon power and pace, mostly.

No one's doubting the success of their business model. It's amazing really how many people have bought in. The issue is that they've claimed to be "elite coaches" - when all they've done in fact is write marketable programs. The programs are hardly unique or groundbreaking - they're mass producing and marketing pre-existing training ideas and methodologies. Last I checked, producing a mediocre product to make money is precisely what a hack is, and what was implied in Jordan's post. No one's doubting their ability to do this well - it's what they've incorrectly identified themselves as, that's the issue. The very nature of 'coaching' and, moreover, elite coaching, is that it's highly individualized and specific to the needs, abilities, and experiences of the athlete. You can adapt written plans all you want, but it's not the same as coaching. Elite marketers or elite businessmen might be a more accurate term.

___________________
Twitter | Kancman | Blog
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [McNulty] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
McNulty wrote:
This discussion going en fuego here is interesting. You have a generally highly regarded guy trashing EN and others piling on. Why so threatened? My theory is that they're doing something very right.

Yes. They are good marketers.

Quote:
They have created a unique business model. It offers very good plans based upon power and pace, mostly. It is not your typical team in training, up with people, tri singles, go run 3.2 miles crapola. Rich and Patrick are both repeat KQers. They have been around, trained well, trained poorly, and have figured this stuff out, and the plans are good and their advice is sound. They communicate extremely well. Bottom line- you can, through EN, train at a high level of technical sophistication without hiring a $300 a month "elite" coach. And that does not sit well with many people for some reason. Hence the terms "hack" and "canned".

Since when does excelling at the physical part of a sport automatically grant the ability to coach the sport? There are thousands of elite athletes in every sport that couldn't coach their way out of a paper bag. And conversely, many many successful coaches that never performed at a high level. (John Madden comes to mind as the first example of the latter)

Quote:
One size never fits all, and everyone trains a little differently. You do what works for you. But EN has nailed it as far as a fundamentally sound approach through using power and pace. And it's never been targeted towards pros or elites. It's for typical AGers.

Your typical AG'er would benefit just as much from getting a $30 HIM plan from beginner triathlete or similar, and following ANY plan that has structure. But, the difference between BT and EN is that EN is presenting itself as a coaching authority, and implying that amazing benefits will ensue if you follow their plan. And, their plan at $129 a month is only slightly less than some of the respected coaches that are here on the board, where you are guaranteed an individualized approach.

It's like the difference between Arizona State and Harvard.

Oh, and nicely done on shifting my post to the personal. I'm not a Rapp apologist. I just think that in this case he's right. Supporting an argument does not automatically connote being an apologist for the essayer of said argument. If I thought he was wrong on something I'd say so. I might even call him an ignorant slut, but I think that particular epithet is reserved for slowman.

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
Quote Reply
Triathlon in a short conversation: [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I approached a local "pro-triathlete" for advice and this is what I got.

Me: I was wondering if you could write me a plan or help coach me?

Coach: Do you want to win races?

Me: Yes.

Coach: Go get a pen. I have all the secrets...

Me: Ok.

Coach: You need to swim fast. You need to bike fast. You need to run fast. Always race your transitions. Healthy crops are healthy craps. And last but not least, hurry up and rest.

Me: That's it?

Coach: Yup. Everything else people tell you or that you read about is coming from a marketing stand point of view. People love to sell you shit. There is shit everywhere and people buy it. Marketing targets people who don't trust their own body.

Me: What about compression socks:

Coach: I said "RACE YOU TRANSITIONS," not put on some knee-high-school-girl-looking-hooker costumes.

Me: Ummmm...

Coach: See you in the spring.

Me: ok...? Well, what about bricks?

Coach: I said "RUN FAST," not slow.
Last edited by: Tri or Die: Oct 28, 11 9:57
Quote Reply
Re: Triathlon in a short conversation: [Tri or Die] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Tri or Die wrote:
I approached a local "pro-triathlete" for advice and this is what I got.
Me: I was wondering if you could write me a plan or help coach me?
Coach: Do you want to win races?
Me: Yes.
Coach: Go get a pen. I have all the secrets...
Me: Ok.
Coach: You need to swim fast. You need to bike fast. You need to run fast. Always race your transitions. Healthy crops are healthy craps. And last but not least, hurry up and rest.
Me: That's it?
Coach: Yup. Everything else people tell you or that you read about is coming from a marketing stand point of view. People love to sell you shit. There is shit everywhere and people buy it. Marketing targets people who don't trust their own body.
Me: What about compression socks:
Coach: I said "RACE YOU TRANSITIONS," not put on some knee-high-school-girl-looking-hooker costumes.
Me: Ummmm...
Coach: See you in the spring.
Me: ok...? Well, what about bricks?
Coach: I said "RUN FAST," not slow.

You sure you weren't talking to dd or Francois?

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
Quote Reply
Re: Triathlon in a short conversation: [Devlin] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Devlin wrote:
Tri or Die wrote:
I approached a local "pro-triathlete" for advice and this is what I got.
Me: I was wondering if you could write me a plan or help coach me?
Coach: Do you want to win races?
Me: Yes.
Coach: Go get a pen. I have all the secrets...
Me: Ok.
Coach: You need to swim fast. You need to bike fast. You need to run fast. Always race your transitions. Healthy crops are healthy craps. And last but not least, hurry up and rest.
Me: That's it?
Coach: Yup. Everything else people tell you or that you read about is coming from a marketing stand point of view. People love to sell you shit. There is shit everywhere and people buy it. Marketing targets people who don't trust their own body.
Me: What about compression socks:
Coach: I said "RACE YOU TRANSITIONS," not put on some knee-high-school-girl-looking-hooker costumes.
Me: Ummmm...
Coach: See you in the spring.
Me: ok...? Well, what about bricks?
Coach: I said "RUN FAST," not slow.


You sure you weren't talking to dd or Francois?

John

That's outstanding.
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Supersquid] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
disgraceful for *me*


:)
Last edited by: sentania: Oct 28, 11 10:15
Quote Reply
Re: Triathlon in a short conversation: [Devlin] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Does it matter who I talked to? I take bits and pieces from everyone along the road of life. I think it is appropriate to say that we are "All full of shit." I buy shit and still do the odd end brick for the "payment of pain." But in the end, and from what I got from this guy was that, is that we all end up dead anyway. He always said, if you are good enough, someone will notice you and you will be living in a dorm in Colorado trying to take down someone who was fed with a silver spoon. Possible that you will, but highly unlikley. Just enjoy it and get an education.

Bricks won't make ME faster. I am positive of that.

Knee high socks are just not my style anyway.

I swim with faster swimmers, cycle with faster cyclists and run with faster runners. I only race transitions on race day.
Quote Reply
Re: Triathlon in a short conversation: [M~] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
This is going on my wall.
Quote Reply
Re: Triathlon in a short conversation: [Tri or Die] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Tri or Die wrote:
Does it matter who I talked to? I take bits and pieces from everyone along the road of life. I think it is appropriate to say that we are "All full of shit." I buy shit and still do the odd end brick for the "payment of pain." But in the end, and from what I got from this guy was that, is that we all end up dead anyway. He always said, if you are good enough, someone will notice you and you will be living in a dorm in Colorado trying to take down someone who was fed with a silver spoon. Possible that you will, but highly unlikley. Just enjoy it and get an education.

Bricks won't make ME faster. I am positive of that.

Knee high socks are just not my style anyway.

I swim with faster swimmers, cycle with faster cyclists and run with faster runners. I only race transitions on race day.

My response was tongue in cheek. :D That's about how Francois or dd sound if you talk with them. Maybe I should have put it in pink.

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Devlin] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
"It's like the difference between Arizona State and Harvard."

Meaning at Harvard you may not meet or see your professor, probably just a grad student running the lectures, ASU you may even be allowed to visit them in their office... ;)

Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [sentania] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I know you meant disgraceful for you, but I still think you’re being a little harsh.

My swim at Kona, however, was undeniably disgraceful. It was 5 minutes slower than my first ironman. I took 4 months off swimming last fall/winter. I don’t know if that 4 months is to blame, but I certainly won’t be taking time off this year.
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Some interesting points made here.
Is it just me, or does a lot of what is being offered up here as "evidence and statistics" or "results and therefore substantiative proof" really amount to nothing more than a broken clock being correct twice a day?


What is really compelling about this thread, like so many others; is the psychology involved. To see otherwise very intelligent people reduced to clutching at straws to maintain their perceived dominance in an artificial world…… its very entertaining.



persequetur vestra metas furiose
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [TigerBlood] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
TigerBlood wrote:
What is really compelling about this thread, like so many others; is the psychology involved. To see otherwise very intelligent people reduced to clutching at straws to maintain their perceived dominance in an artificial world…… its very entertaining.

I have a tendency to be very rigid and blunt when dealing with management at work - particularly during meetings. A few months back, a colleague advised me that "it's better to walk out of these meetings with a handful of straws than a handful of nothing." Two weeks later, I was his boss. Funny how the psychology of affirmation can actually contribute to your undoing.

"The right to party is a battle we have fought, but we'll surrender and go Amish... NOT!" -Wayne Campbell
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Rappstar wrote:
Ah, Endurance Nation. Never be afraid to give bad advice based on poor anecdotal evidence. First, they advise no swimming in the offseason. Now, no bricks.

If you want to read a REALLY interesting article on the PRECISE value of brick workouts - and why they are REALLY important - read the AIS study on lower-leg muscle activation during "normal" running vs. running off the bike. Then read the section of the conclusion where they explicitly state that running off the bike in training reduces the time it takes for your body to start firing your lower leg muscles "as normal" (typically, there is some residual carryover where your body is "confused" and still fires the muscles as if you were cycling).

But don't let actual, practical evidence get in the way of what a couple of hack "coaches" (using the term loosely) think.

Of course, rather than reading ANY study at all, you can think about one simple concept - specificity. Running off the bike is specific training for triathlon. Therefore, it is going to make you a better triathlete. But of course, that doesn't get anyone talking about your "articles."

Thanks Jordan, This is what I never understand: How do I prepare myselfy to run a 10K, 13.1, or 26.2 after a bike if I never practice it. Does something magical happen on race day as a result of never doing it in training. In the Army we always stressed 'Train as you fight', shouldn't we adhere to "Train you you race"?
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [johnnybefit] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Because I don't have the knoweldge to explain it with precisely I'll give a simple example.


Our bodies are hardwired to survive. In general our bodies really really don't want to die. As a result our bodies continually monitor the stress it experiences and learns how to copie with those stresses.

Now because our bodies really care about surviving it realizes that it should be prepared to cope with the regular amount of stress plus a little extra just in case something unusual happens.

Hence the reason our bodies can go above and beyond occasaionally.
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [M~] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
M~ wrote:
jayhawk. wrote:
2010 Bike: 6:16 Run 5:10
2011 Bike: 5:59 Run 5:01


You have a swimming background don't you?
Did you leave out 2009 on purpose?

2009 BIke 6:13, run 5:07

I would say he needs to drop most of his swimming and spend more time running. Those splits are clearly for a lifetime swimmer and MOP triathlete. Probably not the best guy to take advice from regarding how to structure your swim training .
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [jonahsdad] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I am certainly NOT giving advice here! (you really can't on this forum without getting killed!)
I just put out there my experience (n=1)
You're right, I am a fish.
I am working on running this winter.
I AM getting stronger on the bike and run!
Certainly if someone is not a descent swimmer, they could benefit from techinque/form work in the winter.

Michael in Kansas
"Once you learn to quit, it becomes a habit"
"Its not whether you get knocked down, it's whether you get up" Lombardi
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [jonahsdad] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
/wow, you took the time to find my splits from '09.!!!

BTW, I used to help with some medical advice a few years ago on ST to help people out....I got crucified by those who disagreed with me. I was just giving free advice FWIW!! Obviously I stopped that!!!

Michael in Kansas
"Once you learn to quit, it becomes a habit"
"Its not whether you get knocked down, it's whether you get up" Lombardi
Last edited by: jayhawk.: Oct 28, 11 14:08
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [jayhawk.] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
jayhawk. wrote:
BTW, I used to help with some medical advice a few years ago on ST to help people out....I got crucified by those who disagreed with me. I was just giving free advice FWIW!! Obviously I stopped that!!!

What do you expect for someone that can't even spell orthopaedic correctly? :-)~

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
1. do you think the OP who is primarily on here to advertise a modified bento box expected this?
2. Jordan Rapp lives in America where free speech is a right.
3. I appreciate Jordan's insight and Paolo's advice. I deny the fact that a kitten dies every time they post.
4. Agree that the EN folks published an article mentioning evidence, but they did not publish or reference it.
5. I actually value the opinion of Jordan and Paolo about the coaching abilities of EN. I believe there is a big difference between a "coach" and a "person who emails you workouts with motivational articles".
6. Flame on

“I’m not going to stop yelling because that would mean, I lost the fight!” Kenny Powers
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Sparks] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Hey Mike
I didn't mean to call anyone an idiot, especially a triathlete that does bricks because they have a full time job, family and everything. I actually think thats amazing that you always do brick workouts. I think what I meant was that if someone has time, they would probably not JUST do brick workouts if they want to go faster. You obviosuly are getting faster and are fast, but maybe you would be even faster if you had the time to do isolated workouts sometimes. So I take the idiot stuff back.
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [runsliketurtle] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
runsliketurtle wrote:
1. do you think the OP who is primarily on here to advertise a modified bento box expected this?

FYI, 2 corrections: I was on this forum well before I was in the Speedpack biz. Actually, some things I read on this forum inspired me to begin tinkering in that direction. And, finally, if you just look at (all) of my posts, you will quickly see that only a very small minority of them even mention the existence of our Speedpacks.

Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook

--
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [TigerBlood] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
TigerBlood wrote:
What is really compelling about this thread, like so many others, is the psychology involved. To see otherwise very intelligent people reduced to clutching at straws to maintain their perceived dominance in an artificial world its very entertaining.

Not bad. Not only do you have an accurate assessment of the situation, your ability to put it into a concise sentence is impressive. Are you a writer? If you're not, it might be a direction to consider. I'm being serious.

Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook

--
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
the wording of your posts includes includes a tagline for your product, therefore every post is an advertisement. i didn't intend an insult towards the bento box or your integrity, in fact i have strongly considered buying one of your products. I just find it funny that your single post generated a discussion which turned into a long thread about coaching ability/expectations with triathletes having the expectation that professional triathletes and coaches only post boring, professional opinions.

“I’m not going to stop yelling because that would mean, I lost the fight!” Kenny Powers
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [runsliketurtle] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
No worries, I understand.

But about the single post generating so many responses, I didn't expect that, but that's the internet for you. Sometimes things take on a life of their own.

Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook

--
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [tri_kid] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
tri_kid wrote:
Hey Mike
I didn't mean to call anyone an idiot, especially a triathlete that does bricks because they have a full time job, family and everything. I actually think thats amazing that you always do brick workouts. I think what I meant was that if someone has time, they would probably not JUST do brick workouts if they want to go faster. You obviosuly are getting faster and are fast, but maybe you would be even faster if you had the time to do isolated workouts sometimes. So I take the idiot stuff back.


Don't worry, I didn't take offense to your comment. I freely admit that I do what I do because of time constraints. I'll be the first to admit that it's not the optimal way to train, but it's effective enough . . . for me. Now, if my schedule permitted, I'd love to do things differenly, but if I want to squeeze in the volume and frequency of SBR, then this is it for me.

Mike Sparks


I have competed well, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
Last edited by: Sparks: Oct 28, 11 17:58
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [burnman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I run faster off the bike than I do in open running races of the same distance. My triathlon 5k PR on a true course is a full 20 seconds faster than my 5k PR on an open course.

My RPE is lower too.

__________________________

I tweet!

Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [SeasonsChange] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
SeasonsChange wrote:
i remember the first time i did a brick, it was off the bike in my first tri, an OLY distance. my legs were felt weird for about 2 mins and things turned normal.

for triathletes, bricks are like speed work outs, likely only useful for the very elite of the field in shorter distances.


I disagree!

In any tri where the bike ride is over 20 minutes, after T2, it takes me at LEAST 20 minutes for my legs to work and run at a reasonable pace. I used to avoid brick workouts like the plage. Then for IMNZ 2006 I got a tri coach and he prescribed many brick workouts. I'd do my 5 hour rides and go right into a 1 hour run. I found that after about 8 weeks of doing that every week, I could get my 1 hour run route, off the bie, to within 1 minute of my regular run time on that same route. I'd still hurt coming off the bike, but a lot less, and I got into decent run form and speed a lot quicker than when not doing bricks.

OK so I was still an old slow fat FK, but for me, I found it made a huge difference to add a run to 1-2 rides each week.

TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Just out of curiosity...

Both Patrick and Rich are on Slowtwitch...why haven't they responded to any of the questions about the article? I am not talking about the "elite v hack" debate...more just the science and background of their article.

anyone?
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
You just had to open this can of worms again, didn't you!!??

Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [JGell] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Yeah, Rich posted today. Surely it would be worth their time to defend the validity of their program and the integrity of their qualifications for coaching?

I haven't gone through and read more than just the first page, so I'm not really sure how much mud has been slung, but surely no amount could be enough to vainly use the name of the deceased to fight a trivial personal battle against an outspoken critic...

__________________________

I tweet!

Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [japarker24] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Quote:
You just had to open this can of worms again, didn't you!!??
When in Rome...

__________________________

I tweet!

Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that's due to triathlon's world renowned course-measuring accuracy.
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [jpb] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Hmm...it's possible, but I would bet money that's not what's going on.

I've bested my USATF certified open 5k course PR on a tri course on several occasions. Not that that is necessarily evidence in and of itself, but there is something to be said for the fact that I've done it several times. Not only that, but my watch has also measured each of these courses to be essentially spot-on, or rather close enough that the substantial time difference between my tri course 5k and my open 5k couldn't be explained by a short course. I don't even put that much credence in that, but what really convinces me that I'm faster running off the bike than in an open run is that for a given pace (as read by my watch's GPS feature, and/or measured with a stopwatch on a track), my HR is lower, my RPE is lower, and finally, the instantaneous and average speed/pace on my watch is faster because I'm actually running faster.

__________________________

I tweet!

Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
perhaps you need to work on Hing TFU in open running races??
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [JGell] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
JGell wrote:
Just out of curiosity...

Both Patrick and Rich are on Slowtwitch...why haven't they responded to any of the questions about the article? I am not talking about the "elite v hack" debate...more just the science and background of their article.

anyone?

Hi Jared,

Please read this follow up, more detailed post, published last week, I believe. Patrick and I recorded a podcast to accompany it.

--

Rich Strauss
Endurance Nation Ironman 2013 and 2014 World Champion TriClub, Div I
Create a FREE 7-day trial membership
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [jpb] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Quote:
perhaps you need to work on Hing TFU in open running races??


I'm pretty good at that, actually. Like I said, my HR is lower when I run off the bike, as is my RPE. I'm not afraid of pushing myself harder, I just can't.

My avg HR for the open half marathon is 183-187bpm, for the open 5k 193-196bpm (with a maximum of 200-204bpm in my final quarter).

I think it's pretty clear that my body has made some advantageous physiological adaptations to running off the bike.

__________________________

I tweet!

Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Rich Strauss] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Thanks Rich!
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
weird.
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [jpb] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I think my body is adapted to the specificity. It feels easier to run off the bike.

In season I usually have at least one double/triple brick session per week, and all of my bike rides are followed up by a run of some sort.

__________________________

I tweet!

Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Rappstar wrote:
Ah, Endurance Nation. Never be afraid to give bad advice based on poor anecdotal evidence. First, they advise no swimming in the offseason. Now, no bricks.

If you want to read a REALLY interesting article on the PRECISE value of brick workouts - and why they are REALLY important - read the AIS study on lower-leg muscle activation during "normal" running vs. running off the bike. Then read the section of the conclusion where they explicitly state that running off the bike in training reduces the time it takes for your body to start firing your lower leg muscles "as normal" (typically, there is some residual carryover where your body is "confused" and still fires the muscles as if you were cycling).

But don't let actual, practical evidence get in the way of what a couple of hack "coaches" (using the term loosely) think.

Of course, rather than reading ANY study at all, you can think about one simple concept - specificity. Running off the bike is specific training for triathlon. Therefore, it is going to make you a better triathlete. But of course, that doesn't get anyone talking about your "articles."

Hi Jordan,
Can you point me to this article? My Google skills have not turned it up.
Thank you, John
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I rarely, if ever, do bricks in training. Partly because I only bike a couple times a month any more. I swim even less. Mega run miles works great for me.

My last 2 seasons I have been running as well as ever off the bike. My biking has hardly suffered. That is for short course racing though. YMMV of course.

Brian

Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [johnnybefit] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
johnnybefit wrote:
Rappstar wrote:
Ah, Endurance Nation. Never be afraid to give bad advice based on poor anecdotal evidence. First, they advise no swimming in the offseason. Now, no bricks.


If you want to read a REALLY interesting article on the PRECISE value of brick workouts - and why they are REALLY important - read the AIS study on lower-leg muscle activation during "normal" running vs. running off the bike. Then read the section of the conclusion where they explicitly state that running off the bike in training reduces the time it takes for your body to start firing your lower leg muscles "as normal" (typically, there is some residual carryover where your body is "confused" and still fires the muscles as if you were cycling).

But don't let actual, practical evidence get in the way of what a couple of hack "coaches" (using the term loosely) think.

Of course, rather than reading ANY study at all, you can think about one simple concept - specificity. Running off the bike is specific training for triathlon. Therefore, it is going to make you a better triathlete. But of course, that doesn't get anyone talking about your "articles."


Hi Jordan,
Can you point me to this article? My Google skills have not turned it up.
Thank you, John


I think this is the article Jordan was referring to:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/...ii/S144024401000037X
Quote Reply
Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [AwesomePossum] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I don't generally run off the bike during the week. I will do it on occasion after a long ride just to unwind my legs. I tend to focus more on my run quality. Having one good long run during the week and a good track workout one night per week. My marathon times have ranged from 2:51 up to 3:07 and my best runs always are the one when I run the first five to six miles at a 7 minute pace, then progressively pick up the pace. If I stay relaxed and do not pay attention to people blowing past me the first half of the run, it's fun to reel them back in. However, it's easier said than done. Half the time, I start my run like a madman and pay for it at mile 24.
Quote Reply