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Lets put the weight training debate in the grave
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Unless of course you are currently in the M35-39 or will be in the 40-44AG next year. If that is you, read and do the exact opposite.

From Bompa himself (and if you don't know who he is, you should hide in the corner and say 9 hail marys in arabic)

""Finally, for endurance-dominant sports, one needs to develop muscle-endurance [tens and even hundreds of reps]. If this isn't achieved, a good adaptation to such training won't occur.

Here is the article, worth the read, especially if you are in the I'm going to lift to crush dreams in triathlon camp. hahaha suckers.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/mahler18.htm


And yes I browse strength training websites

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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dude- there has never been any doubt in my mind that strength training is absolutely key to performance on many levels.

I'll even raise you one-

Bike fit and position.

A lot of issues with peoples' positions eminates from various muscular imbalances and weaknesses. They have saddle discomfort issues, lower back problems, excessive neck strain, etc. I've long thought a big part of it is laxity in certain muscle groups, often the core. They aren't "strong" enough to support maintaining a good cycling posture. As a result they treat the problem symptomatically- new saddle, bike fit, etc. All they need is a TRX, some kettlebells and a trainer to show them how to make their body more stable.

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Strength training is basically universally accepted as being beneficial for endurance sports.
Tudor has his own thoughts, but even the opposite methods (eg high load and low reps) have been correlated with improvements in endurance performance.

I talk a lot - Give it a listen: http://www.fasttalklabs.com/category/fast-talk
I also give Training Advice via http://www.ForeverEndurance.com

The above poster has eschewed traditional employment and is currently undertaking the ill-conceived task of launching his own hardgoods company. Statements are not made on behalf of nor reflective of anything in any manner... unless they're good, then they count.
http://www.AGNCYINNOVATION.com
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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Oh no, here we go again.

I am sure I beat Desertdude at Wildflower because I lift weights and puncture gods looked on my more favourably, because the puncture god is actually a godess and she prefers guys with a bit more bulk than pencil neck tri geeks :-)
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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season is over

do 12oz curls count?
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [xtrpickels] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Strength training is basically universally accepted as being beneficial for endurance sports.
Tudor has his own thoughts, but even the opposite methods (eg high load and low reps) have been correlated with improvements in endurance performance.

::bangs head on desk::

No its not universally accepted try again.
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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"oh no you didn't", Brian.

http://www.pbmcoaching.com
USA Triathlon Level 3 Elite Coach
USA Cycling Level 1 Elite Coach

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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
""Finally, for endurance-dominant sports, one needs to develop muscle-endurance [tens and even hundreds of reps]. If this isn't achieved, a good adaptation to such training won't occur.


just spend more time climbing hills ...

"Muscle endurance is defined as the muscle's ability to sustain work for a prolonged period"

"endurance, strength and speed are keys to good performance, but the combination of muscular endurance and strength allow an athlete to perform multiple repetitions against resistance for a long period of time. Specifically, sports like distance running, rowing, cycling and cross country skiing have greater requirements of muscular endurance."

(Bompa, 2003)

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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [draketriathlon] [ In reply to ]
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It's universally accepted by a bunch of personal trainers at fitness centers accross the USA

jaretj
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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dude- there has never been any doubt in my mind that strength training is absolutely key to performance on many levels.
____________

"Many levels"? How many? Which ones?
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
It's universally accepted by a bunch of personal trainers at fitness centers accross the USA

jaretj

Why the pink? That sounds accurate.

Aerodynamics are for people who can't build engines. -Enzo Ferrari
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Bah Humbug] [ In reply to ]
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Because we all know that the local personal trainer is the best source of fitness advice you can get.

Their job depends on it.

jaretj
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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its amazing that anyone ever went pro before CORE work was such a fad.


In Reply To:
All they need is a TRX, some kettlebells and a trainer to show them how to make their body more stable.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Because we all know that the local personal trainer is the best source of fitness advice you can get.

Their job depends on it.

jaretj

Just for dead clarity, I meant the fact that it was personal trainers pushing lifting that sounded accurate, not that weight training sounded accurate.

Best thing I ever did was give up the gym and SBR more.

Aerodynamics are for people who can't build engines. -Enzo Ferrari
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Bah Humbug] [ In reply to ]
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I knew exactly what you meant :) I agree.

jaretj
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [xtrpickels] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Strength training is basically universally accepted as being beneficial for endurance sports.


Just thought that required repeating.

Debate done.


Steve

http://www.PeaksCoachingGroup.com
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [c.dan.jog] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
dude- there has never been any doubt in my mind that strength training is absolutely key to performance on many levels.
____________

"Many levels"? How many? Which ones?


It's all about level 11.
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [c.dan.jog] [ In reply to ]
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These levels:

Injury prevention: Increased musculature may aid in distirbuting work load over muscles, soft tissues and skeleton in a more equitable manner, thus reducing the reliance and resulting exposure to damage on any one system: skeletal, muscular or connective. I have no study to cite. SWAG.

Stability: Specifically, when the muscles that stabilize the spine (erector spinae?) and torso are in relative development (i.e, sufficiently developed/adapted to resist opposing counter forces) to the "working" muscles such as the semi-membranosis (I don't know how to spell that), gluteal, vastus lateralus, rectus femoris, vastus medialis then you don;t see as much "sympathetic" or resultant movement in the torso under hard pedalling efforts. again- no handy study here- just my opinon.

Now, clearly, there has to be a corresponding vascular development and the ability to get the (increased) oxygen required to these larger, more developed muscles and get rid of the the extra CO2, but, I still think it helps.

Additionally, the shopping list of stuff I've been through is boggling- and I can still train and race. When I left the stroke wing at Oakwood hospital they told me I was the only person who ever walked off the wing. I know it is myopic to credit any one thing with all of that, but I'll suggest that a balanced approach to fitness may have been a contirbuting factor. Since I lived through it, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. Weight training = good.

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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But now we wont have anything to "discuss"!!

--------------------------

Team Timex 2014
@ajhodges
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [draketriathlon] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
In Reply To:
Strength training is basically universally accepted as being beneficial for endurance sports.
Tudor has his own thoughts, but even the opposite methods (eg high load and low reps) have been correlated with improvements in endurance performance.


::bangs head on desk::

No its not universally accepted try again.

BAHAHAHHAAAAAAA

yes, that is me laughing at your ignorance.

I talk a lot - Give it a listen: http://www.fasttalklabs.com/category/fast-talk
I also give Training Advice via http://www.ForeverEndurance.com

The above poster has eschewed traditional employment and is currently undertaking the ill-conceived task of launching his own hardgoods company. Statements are not made on behalf of nor reflective of anything in any manner... unless they're good, then they count.
http://www.AGNCYINNOVATION.com
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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It will help you in a fight. Like the one you just started.
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Johnny99] [ In reply to ]
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I won that fight a long time ago. I just needed to eat some popcorn tonight!

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [xtrpickels] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
In Reply To:
In Reply To:
Strength training is basically universally accepted as being beneficial for endurance sports.
Tudor has his own thoughts, but even the opposite methods (eg high load and low reps) have been correlated with improvements in endurance performance.


::bangs head on desk::

No its not universally accepted try again.

BAHAHAHHAAAAAAA

yes, that is me laughing at your ignorance.

Let me guess I also need to work on my core strength to be a better triathlete right?
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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I'm going to spend the time that I was tempted to spend posting the dozens of research studies on the benefits of strength training for endurance sports on my aforementioned book instead. Then you can have at it.

Ben Greenfield

Ben Greenfield

Nutrition & Human Performance Advice
http://www.bengreenfieldfitness.com
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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My n=1 story is I went from being dropped by the local big boys one season to weight training in the off season and transforming into the one everyone started making uncomfortable jokes about getting tested for doping.

If y'all don't want to do weights, I don't mind.

-------------------------------
Ignorance is bliss until they take your bliss away.
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [draketriathlon] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Let me guess I also need to work on my core strength to be a better triathlete right?

I'm somewhat ambivalent about other aspects of strength training, but I can't see how anyone can quarrel with needing core strength. It's crucial for swimming, and it sure helps injury prevention while running (and will probably make you faster to boot).

Honestly, do you believe that frame stiffness makes a difference in bike speed? Then you oughta believe that core strength makes a difference in run speed--same thing to my mind.
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Men are the ones who like bulk--in themselves and other guys.
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Sausagetail] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Men are the ones who like bulk--in themselves and other guys.

Compensating for something there?
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [jpb] [ In reply to ]
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How does core strength prevent injury in running?

I get core strength in swimming from doing fly-kicking. No need to go to the gym for that.

jaretj
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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I think alot depends on body type.
The mesomorph, male or female will retain muscle bulk and strength without strength training and will "get big" if they lift.
The ectomorph will lose what muscle they have if not trained and seem to benefit from strength work for reasons mentioned in other posts.
The endomorphic triathlete are those left standing at the Ironman dinner and can find that triathlon training gets them looking and feeling good, train to eat they might say. Strength training can truly help in weight loss goals.
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Yes,
Let's put this in the grave. If weight training improves your preformance, then go lift. I don't understand the need to sell weight training to triathletes. A little bit about myself: 5 years ago, I lifted ~ 4X a week. I am 6'4" and weighed as much as 240lbs. I threw in the highland games, heavy and light hammer, weight over bar, weight for distance and caber toss. I benched 270+, which is allot of weight for someone as rangey as myself. I got sick of being around obese guys who referred to themselves as athletes, and was aware of steroid use among the pros. I also felt like crap. I felt heavy, and wanted to get back to the form I had when I raced bikes years ago. I started training for a half marathon and never looked back. I weigh 185 now, and feel fantastic. I haven't lifted in close to a year, and don't miss it a bit.
I really fail to see how free weight training aids any aspect of a triathletes performance. It is only nominally better than doing nothing, and, in many cases, may be worse than doing nothing. Most people reading this don't need extra body weight. What they, (we), need is more hours in the day to train. Faced w/job/family/and scarce $$resources, why would someone burn time trying to move a heavy piece of iron, instead of going for a ride? I will also make the argument that weight training is detrimental to swimming. Swimming is THE MOST technique driven activity I have ever engaged in. It is all about precise muscle memory, and has very little to do with ones strength. You can spew all you want about core strength, injury prevention, and, I firmly believe, that just is industry driven talking points. The best thing for a triathlete is to bike, run and swim. More.
Also, the "...tens and even hundreds of reps..." is pure crap. All that will do is get the machines and floor wet.


It's simple, but it isn't easy.
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Depends on what kind of weight training, when you do it and what your goals really are.

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Sausagetail] [ In reply to ]
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I don't think my wife really cares if I am bulked up, but she does care if I turn into a pencil neck endurance geek that might dissappear if I turn sideways. With my work schedule, weight training helps me get through some pretty painful trips hauling heavy stuff all over the place without getting hurt. Not getting hurt helps me get to the start line of tris. It's not "either or".

How many races does Desertdude get to the start of. He's DNSing DNFing worse than a pro and always seems to have an excuse as to why (sorry Brian, but I'm taking the popcorn out now).

Dev
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [jpb] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
I'm somewhat ambivalent about other aspects of strength training, but I can't see how anyone can quarrel with needing core strength. It's crucial for swimming, and it sure helps injury prevention while running (and will probably make you faster to boot).

if it is crucial for running and swimming than it will be built from all the running and swimming we do. If those muscles are crucial for the task they are being stressed when we do the task. there shouldn't be any need to stress them some totally different way with kettlebells at much lower reps then expect that to make us faster.

In Reply To:
Honestly, do you believe that frame stiffness makes a difference in bike speed?

no

In Reply To:
Then you oughta believe that core strength makes a difference in run speed--same thing to my mind.

that really doesn't follow, but I'm glad I disagreed with the original premise so we don't have to worry about it



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [sdmike] [ In reply to ]
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It's all about level 11.

I always do 11 reps. It's one stronger. Where can you go from there? Where?


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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [jpb] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
In Reply To:
Let me guess I also need to work on my core strength to be a better triathlete right?


I'm somewhat ambivalent about other aspects of strength training, but I can't see how anyone can quarrel with needing core strength. It's crucial for swimming, and it sure helps injury prevention while running (and will probably make you faster to boot).

Honestly, do you believe that frame stiffness makes a difference in bike speed? Then you oughta believe that core strength makes a difference in run speed--same thing to my mind.

Well, since frame stiffness makes no difference in bike speed (unless you are a track sprinter, perhaps), then you believe that core strength doesn't make a difference in run speed?

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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if it is crucial for running and swimming than it will be built from all the running and swimming we do. If those muscles are crucial for the task they are being stressed when we do the task. there shouldn't be any need to stress them some totally different way with kettlebells at much lower reps then expect that to make us faster

Not that I do enough core or weight training because with a family and a job getting 11 hours i biking and running a week is hard enough. But I have said it before weight training and core workouts help supporting muscle's which in turn takes some stress and fatigue off of the major muscles you use when biking , running or swimming. They do take some oxygen and blood away from the major muscles also but your body will compensate for it. For most athletes that are not at elite or pro level more swimmiing biking and running is the ticket. And Jackie I think you said that last one before.

__________________________________________________
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http://www.google.com/...P7RiWyEVwpunlsc2JtQQ
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
...From Bompa himself (and if you don't know who he is, you should hide in the corner and say 9 hail marys in arabic)

""Finally, for endurance-dominant sports, one needs to develop muscle-endurance [tens and even hundreds of reps]. If this isn't achieved, a good adaptation to such training won't occur...

And yes I browse strength training websites


heh heh heh...nice!
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [dddave] [ In reply to ]
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I think the real key with these kinds of debates is context. To me (I'm a MOP guy, pretty much across the board with SBR, FWIW) it's all about goals. If my goals were to go as fast as possible in triathlons and everything else was secondary, then I need to do what makes me fastest at triathlon as much as possible - maybe that includes some kind of weight training, maybe not. If my goals are more like doing triathlons for fitness, hobby, fun, challenges, weight maintenance, etc and my other goals benefit more directly from weight training, then I think that's totally reasonable, appropriate, and most certainly worth the effort.

I get bored easily and as a result tend to naturally periodize my training and goals anyway, so it works out good. I've done no weight lifting other than a short body weight routine twice a week for six months now while swimming, biking, and running more than ever and I can tell you that after my racing is over in about four weeks, I'm looking forward to adding the weights back in to my routine.

I love these debates, but it seems that we absolutely have to have context to what we're arguing about. I won't argue that Craig Alexander needs to lift heavy weights to go faster. But, I don't think anyone can argue that weight training in some form (and that's a broad statement because weight or resistance training comes in a lot of different shapes and sizes) doesn't benefit other life activities, goals and health.
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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Just because the old-timers did things a certain way, doesn't mean that what they did can't be improved upon in the future. developing total body strength (not hypertrophy necessarily) can only aid, as Mr. Demerly said, in the maintenance of certain positions and the reduced risk of injury.


------------------------------------------------------------------

"What do I have to do, when I wake up tomorrow, to become excellent. Do that, and then do it again the next day, and the next, etc. One day you'll wake up and the time and the fitness will have taken care of themselves."
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Nailey13] [ In reply to ]
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do you really think that a healthy persons max strength is so low that it can not support body weight?
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [schroeder] [ In reply to ]
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7-minute abs. That's where.
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [big slow mover] [ In reply to ]
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This is the way I see it, and I could be wrong. If muscles that are not shortened and lengthened repeatedly over long periods of time are relatively weak (i.e. are incapable of maintaining an isometric contraction for an extended period of time), the proper execution sport-specific muscle contraction may be compromised. Think about how many people lean forward while running and seem to lurch forward with every stride. The weakness of their erector spinae and (and to some extent rectus abdominus) muscles compromises their ability to run most efficiently.


------------------------------------------------------------------

"What do I have to do, when I wake up tomorrow, to become excellent. Do that, and then do it again the next day, and the next, etc. One day you'll wake up and the time and the fitness will have taken care of themselves."
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Fooshee] [ In reply to ]
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Dude, how's life in the CO? I sent you a PM and never heard back. Hope the wife is handling the move well; you sure as hell aren't missing much down here.

trav

____________________________________________________
"As for "xxxxxx"...what can I say? You sound like a dick. If you don't want to answer the question, just shut up." AllezPappa
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
if it is crucial for running and swimming than it will be built from all the running and swimming we do. If those muscles are crucial for the task they are being stressed when we do the task. there shouldn't be any need to stress them some totally different way with kettlebells at much lower reps then expect that to make us faster.


Jack, I agree with you on a lot of things but I guess this just aint one of them. Perhaps you may be able to explain this better but I've watched a lot of interviews with Phelps, Lochte, etc. and they have all said they spend a lot of time in the gym. I've worked with some world class sprinters and runners and they also spend a great deal of time in the gym, Shawn Crawford didn't drop under 20 sec in the 200m and 10 sec in the 100 by just lacing up spikes and running. The guy puts up 405 on the bench. I understand that its not distance running but here's a NYT Article that has both him and Deena Kastor with body fats, calorie consumptions, measurements etc. and I think her marathon time is faster than anyones on this website. and yes, she advocates strength training and supplements...



When someone pulls laws out of their @$$, all we end up with are laws that smell like sh!t. -Skippy
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Pretty good troll Desert Dude, you got a good one going, minus points for outing yourself as trolling though.

I was unaware that Tudor Bompa had debate settling opinions, and yes I do know who he is :-)
Last edited by: Kevin in MD: Aug 10, 10 7:16
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Kevin in MD] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Pretty good troll Desert Dude, you got a good one going, minus points for outing yourself as trolling though.

I was unaware that Tudor Bompa had debate settiling opinions, and yes I do know who he is :-)

no kidding!!! It isn't like the guys name is Paulo or anything! :)
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Nailey13] [ In reply to ]
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Think about how many people lean forward while running and seem to lurch forward with every stride. The weakness of their erector spinae and (and to some extent rectus abdominus) muscles compromises their ability to run most efficiently.

No, they are just in bad running shape. If/when they run more, the muscles required for running will get stronger.

If you do situps more, the muscles required for doing situps will get stronger.



Portside Athletics Blog
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [SwBkRn44] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, I'm sure the Tarahumara do TONS of squats and sit-ups to supplement their run training. It's the only explanation.


float , hammer , and jog

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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [SwBkRn44] [ In reply to ]
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However, you're assuming that the muscles used for situps are never used for running. If you can do 15 minutes worth of situps, it will likely be beneficial for your 5K. 2x15min during the next time you watch the evening news instead of sitting on the couch :-). That should not take away from S-B-R training, its just concurrent activity with TV watching.
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [original PV] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
In Reply To:
if it is crucial for running and swimming than it will be built from all the running and swimming we do. If those muscles are crucial for the task they are being stressed when we do the task. there shouldn't be any need to stress them some totally different way with kettlebells at much lower reps then expect that to make us faster.


Jack, I agree with you on a lot of things but I guess this just aint one of them. Perhaps you may be able to explain this better but I've watched a lot of interviews with Phelps, Lochte, etc. and they have all said they spend a lot of time in the gym. I've worked with some world class sprinters and runners and they also spend a great deal of time in the gym, Shawn Crawford didn't drop under 20 sec in the 200m and 10 sec in the 100 by just lacing up spikes and running. The guy puts up 405 on the bench. I understand that its not distance running but here's a NYT Article that has both him and Deena Kastor with body fats, calorie consumptions, measurements etc. and I think her marathon time is faster than anyones on this website. and yes, she advocates strength training and supplements...

I'm not John (Mott), but Phelps, Lochte, and all the other world class non-endurance athletes you mention can benefit from strength training (funny that Phelps was world class before he did any gym work, but I digress). Nobody disputes that. There can even be a successful argument for world class endurance runners benefitting from strength training as a supplement to their already insane running mileage. What can't be argued successfully is that the 99.99% of the rest of us endurance athletes who haven't maxed out their S/B/R time can benefit from strength training more than they'd benefit from using that time for S/B/R.

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [original PV] [ In reply to ]
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Yes they are in the gym because they are limited by their strength at their level. Most of us are at a much lower level that only requires that we SBR.

With the exception of Deena Kastor, I wouldn't consider the others you mentioned endurance athletes.

jaretj
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
I don't think my wife really cares if I am bulked up, but she does care if I turn into a pencil neck endurance geek that might dissappear if I turn sideways...


Well said!

When someone asks me why I do triathlon (... and "weight lifting"), my response is usually something like this: "...basically, I just want to look good naked!"
------
If you're an AG'er with a job/family/social life/sleep requirements, weight training (and getting to/from the gym to do weight training) simply doesn't have the ROI if it comes at the expense of quality sport specific workouts, particularly if you have ambitious "triathlon goals". However, for the rest of us who don't derive our self-worth from our finish times -- tongue-(partially)-in-cheek-here --, I say knock yourself out if you want to do some "strength work".

Bottom line: determine YOUR goals (... and your primary goals probably should NOT be triathlon related,) and schedule your LIFE accordingly.

Thats my $0.02
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Nailey13] [ In reply to ]
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Think about how many people lean forward while running and seem to lurch forward with every stride.

bad coordination? I do that, and I have plenty of strength to keep myself up.
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Murphy'sLaw] [ In reply to ]
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Huh? What?

The part in bold was what I quoted from someone else. The part below that is what I wrote and I think agrees with what you are saying.

Did you miss your coffee this morning or something? Geez.



Portside Athletics Blog
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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I don't necessarily disagree Ken, but I haven't seen any great arguments on the opposite side either. I agree that for a lot of athletes their time would be better utilized with more SBR time but that doesn't mean that they wouldn't benefit from strength training. Lets say athlete A chooses more SBR time and can cut 30 min of a HIM time and athlete B chooses resitance training and ends up cutting only 15 minutes off. I personally (as tri isn't my life devotional) would rather choose B as it confers more benefits in many of my lifes other occupations. I like the bulk a little more, I move a lot so lifting and moving stuff with less chance for injury is nice, I still try and make it out to the track a bit so more muscle definitely helps there.



When someone pulls laws out of their @$$, all we end up with are laws that smell like sh!t. -Skippy
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [mslater777x] [ In reply to ]
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Most of the guys in the anti weight training crowd here are taking this sport waaaaaaaay to seriously for a bunch of guys who don't get paid to "perform" at this sport. Does anyone really care if you went 2:09 vs 2:11. I can bet that 99.9999995% of spouses could care less about the difference.

99% of spouses secretly likely prefer if you go 10:01 and miss that Kona slot to the guy who just went 9:59 at Placid....this way it's not another 4 months of the IM grind for the family (and the grind is usually worse for them than for the athlete). On the other hand, they might prefer that you get the slot so that you're not a miserable aerobically withered stick sitting in front of the TV watching Kona videos trying to get your motivation up for next year, too weak to carry the garbage to the curb!
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [original PV] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
I personally (as tri isn't my life devotional) would rather choose B as it confers more benefits in many of my lifes other occupations. I like the bulk a little more, I move a lot so lifting and moving stuff with less chance for injury is nice, I still try and make it out to the track a bit so more muscle definitely helps there.

First you cite all these world class athletes who spend time in the gym as some sort of rationale for strength training. Now you cite lifestyle benefits. I'm guessing the former don't do it for the latter benefits.

Pick a story and stick to it.

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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Ken, I hate to break it to you, but you can't control how people on the internet think. He may have provided his reasoning over 2 steps rather than a single posting. Maybe on the weight training threads, you need to post a FAQ and set of rules up front for all of us to obey. Not exactly sure why you guys get so tied up and bent out of joint about others chosing to do resistance training. We're all big boys and have good reasoning and motivation for our actions, as misguided as some may think them to be.
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Most of the guys in the anti weight training crowd here are taking this sport waaaaaaaay to seriously for a bunch of guys who don't get paid to "perform" at this sport. Does anyone really care if you went 2:09 vs 2:11. I can bet that 99.9999995% of spouses could care less about the difference.

99% of spouses secretly likely prefer if you go 10:01 and miss that Kona slot to the guy who just went 9:59 at Placid....this way it's not another 4 months of the IM grind for the family (and the grind is usually worse for them than for the athlete). On the other hand, they might prefer that you get the slot so that you're not a miserable aerobically withered stick sitting in front of the TV watching Kona videos trying to get your motivation up for next year, too weak to carry the garbage to the curb!


X100-Thank you for stating that better than I could have.

And Ken, No I won't pick a story. I think the world class guys can do it for their reasons (not the same as mine) and I can do it for my own reasons, both perfectly acceptable.



When someone pulls laws out of their @$$, all we end up with are laws that smell like sh!t. -Skippy
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Ken, I hate to break it to you, but you can't control how people on the internet think. He may have provided his reasoning over 2 steps rather than a single posting.

Bullshit. This thread, like every single other thread on the subject, follows the exact same trajectory, starting with the purported benefits of strength training for endurance athletes, moving on to "core strength" necessity, then hitting on injury prevention, and ending up with appeals to authority ("Mark Allen says so!"), lifestyle rationale and "do what works for you." As each is shot down with facts, the argument moves on until it reaches the final, unassailable level.

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [original PV] [ In reply to ]
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I've been lifting daily in preparation for Kona. No one really cares if I go 10:29, 11:29, 12:31, but at least I'll be presentable at the beach :-) :-) :-). I certainly feel a lot better and productive after some resistance training than after long aerobic workouts. I actually have a friend who is a surgeon who won't do anything aerobic before he has to go to work, but he'll do resistance training because he finds it helps his concentration and focus afterwards, rather then leaving him feeling spent and in blood sugar daze as he gets after endurance training.

Speaking of resistance training and track and field, check out this video of Lolo Jones....33 clap pushups in 30 seconds...of course her event only last 12.5 seconds, but it's pretty cool and should get you inspired in a different way than Chrissie Wellington might inspire you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuPq897Hsdk
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [original PV] [ In reply to ]
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I think that's a pretty good statement. If you like doing it that's a terrific reason to keep doing it.

jaretj
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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"If you can do 15 minutes worth of situps, it will likely be beneficial for your 5K. 2x15min during the next time you watch the evening news instead of sitting on the couch :-). That should not take away from S-B-R training, its just concurrent activity with TV watching."

Umm, the only time I have to watch TV right now is while I'm taking my post-workout snacks, which I consider essential to recovery. (Okay, I did watch some of the Tour, but mostly from the trainer!) Anyway, 2 x 15 min. sounds like an awful lot of situps.

That said, I've noticed that Hal Higdon includes strength training in his 5K and 10K training plans, and I'm thinking about trying out one of those plans sometime (although my more immediate plans are for longer events). I'm an older runner and decidedly ectomorphic; for both reasons, I suppose there could be more potential benefit in the strength work for me than for a lot of others here.

-----
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--
I took the one less traveled by,
Which is probably why I was registering 59.67mi as I rolled into T2.

Last edited by: Rob C in FL: Aug 10, 10 8:00
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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Ken, your text makes it sound like your head is about to explode because you can't change the mindset of posters on the internet....let it go man. People will lift cause they want to. If they want to believe that there is a benefit to them, they are going to.

I think you need a break from this thread and stop exercising fingers and see if you can do like Lolo and achieve 33 clap pushups in 30 seconds...that will have more general fitness beneft than posting on ST. It takes no equipment as you can do it in your office.
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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I think you got it about right. I love the gym because the way I feel after a great workout. Sounds like Ken lost a prom date to a body builder :)



When someone pulls laws out of their @$$, all we end up with are laws that smell like sh!t. -Skippy
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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I wear a pink shirt with flowers on it the day before every race. Macca eats lasagna the night before every race. In either case, I think we both fall victim to some superstition. And I think we generally do it because we like it - me, my pink shirt and Macca his lasagna. I wish weight training would fall into the same category -"I do it because I like it. And I do it because it makes me feel good." The problem is when people try to develop pseudo-scientific rationales for these things that simply aren't there.

The internet, in general, seems to have caused a plague of "correlation being replaced by causation." if you want to say "I PRed at my last race, AND I did squats 2x a week all winter," that's fine with me. Just don't say "I PRed at my last race BECAUSE I did squats 2x a week all winter."

I find it funny that folks like you and I are called "anti-weight training." It reminds me of the term "pro-life," which at the risk of getting into a lavender room type debate, always seemed ridiculous to me. What's the opposite of pro-life? "Anti-life"? What an absurd concept. IN MY OPINION, pro-choice is a much more appropriate moniker, because the opposite is "anti-choice," which actually makes sense - folks who are "pro-life" wish to remove ability to choose. I am not debating the reasons why they wish to remove said choice; and I'll admit that *if you agree with their arguments,* then removing that choice makes sense. So "choice" vs. "no choice" makes sense to me. And I look at this debate in a similar, albeit substantially less serious, light.

You have people who are "pro-strength." But folks like you and I are not "anti-strength." We are simply saying that there is no substantive reason to do strength training to improve endurance performance. I'm not saying do not do weights. I don't really care what you do. But just do them knowing that there is essentially NO substantive research showing that it will help your ENDURANCE SPORT PERFORMANCE. That doesn't make me "anti" anything. I don't object to weights. I object to false claims about why people should do weights.

In other words, there are these people who say "strength training will make you faster." And they perceive people like you and I as saying the equivalent of "strength training will make you slower." That is NOT what you & I are saying (at the risk of speaking for you, which I apologize for). All we are saying is "It will NOT make you faster." There are other things that make people feel good that won't make you any faster - like wearing a pink shirt - but that doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't do them. Just don't do them and try to come up with a reason for them that just isn't there.

I'm not trying to prove anything other than falsehood. No one is saying strength training is BAD for you (at least, not that I saw). They are just saying it's NOT GOOD for you (or, more specifically, endurance performance). All the folks who spend time hammering away on why strength training is so valuable should spend some time reading what the term "zealot" means. It'd time well spent. At least as well spent as another round of squats...

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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I wear a pink shirt with flowers on it the day before every race.

You know the rule: pics or it didn't happen.

(and thanks for the support! Apparently, "I object to false claims about why people should do weights" isn't sufficient to offer advice on slowtwitch)

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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I don't have a problem with people being dumbasses (well, that's not really true). But what I do have a problem with is when dumbasses try to convince the world that they are not dumbasses and try to get other, innocent folks to join them in being a dumbass.

You want to do situps in front of the TV? Be my guest. Just don't try to get other people to do them by telling them it will "likely" help their 5k when you have ZERO proof that is the case and when the actual evidence (not that there is a specific study exactly on 2x15min situps & 5k performance) shows the opposite - that something like 2x15min situps has NO EFFECT (which is different than a NEGATIVE effect) on something like 5k performance.

Ken actually cares that misinformation is not spread. What an amazing concept. If people would be content to be dumbasses in the privacy of their own home, then you wouldn't need people like Ken to shoot their dumbass theories full of holes. Of course, if L. Ron Hubbard has taught us anything, it's that getting other people to be dumbasses can be a good thing, at least for some folks...

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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So you are saying the Deena Kastor is not gaining any benefit in getting faster from lifting?



When someone pulls laws out of their @$$, all we end up with are laws that smell like sh!t. -Skippy
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [original PV] [ In reply to ]
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I'm unable to get to the NYT article you linked.

jaretj
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
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http://www.nytimes.com/...803BODIES_index.html

Try that one, its an article called Bodies of Work, a slide show of pics of the athletes and their various VO2 maxes, heart rates, calories consumptions, purdy cool really. If that doesnt work try searching google for NYT Bodies of Work, should be the first result.



When someone pulls laws out of their @$$, all we end up with are laws that smell like sh!t. -Skippy
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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""Finally, for endurance-dominant sports, one needs to develop muscle-endurance [tens and even hundreds of reps].


Isn't all endurance muscular?
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [original PV] [ In reply to ]
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That's not what *I* am saying. That is what the prevailing research on the topic says.

It's also worth noting that she did weight training before the Beijing Olympics, the same Olympics that she had to drop out of because of a crippling injury to her foot that left her in a hardshell boot for two months. Of course, I am sure the weight training proponents will have some convenient excuse for how/why weight training didn't magically prevent that injury. Oh wait, I know the reason - because weight training also hasn't been shown to prevent injury.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Its also worth noting she weight trained before and after that. Last I checked her 2:19 marathon was still a pretty darn good number. I'd trust her to coach me. I haven't taken the time to read all of the research that is saying A vice B (or B vice A for that matter), but her anecdotal evidence is good enough in my opinion. A bit of cursory research also suggests that Lance and Haile also strength train. Their anecdotal evidence is also perfectly fine in my opinion.

Just a question for clarification: Ken said the following -

Quote:

There can even be a successful argument for world class endurance runners benefitting from strength training as a supplement to their already insane running mileage.[/qoute]

So you are saying that no evidence shows in any way shape or form that strength training can benefit endurance performance?

Just pointing out that if I understand your stance on the matter you and Ken don't even agree.



When someone pulls laws out of their @$$, all we end up with are laws that smell like sh!t. -Skippy
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Jordan,

maybe you're reading too much into this or its unclear (it is text and the receiver reads what they want to read rather than what the transmitter may have intended....modulation approaches between receiver and transmitter are not the same like in FM or AM system....but I digress). Let me restate....I'm just saying that 2x15 min of situps will have more fitness benefits than sitting on the couch and will help your 5K time more than just sitting on the couch. That's why I said to do it in front of the TV, not do it "INSTEAD" of running. Did you miss the "in front of the TV/concurrent activity part"?

If you and Ken want to care what other people think or type or say, that's your choice. Internet fora by their very nature will have some information and some misinformation, but the discussion is why most people go to fora and once there, they can use their own personal filters/priorities to pick what they want glean from it.

If we only wanted peer reviewed stuff, we'd never come to a discussion forum, we'd just download published documents, but that by nature is a very solitary and somewhat anti social exercise. The exchange of information and banter and connecting with people who may or may not have the same shared values is why people come to the ST forum. If not, we'd just be hanging out in libraries searching for the published truth with no one to discuss with.

So my input is don't get your blood pressure up about people being dumbass. You might have more in common with the same people you think are being dumbass, but might shut the door on them later in life (personal relationships, business relationships etc) because of what you may read into them having typed in text.

Dev
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [original PV] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Its also worth noting she weight trained before and after that. Last I checked her 2:19 marathon was still a pretty darn good number. I'd trust her to coach me. I haven't taken the time to read all of the research that is saying A vice B (or B vice A for that matter), but her anecdotal evidence is good enough in my opinion. A bit of cursory research also suggests that Lance and Haile also strength train. Their anecdotal evidence is also perfectly fine in my opinion.

Just a question for clarification: Ken said the following -

Quote:

There can even be a successful argument for world class endurance runners benefitting from strength training as a supplement to their already insane running mileage.[/qoute]

So you are saying that no evidence shows in any way shape or form that strength training can benefit endurance performance?

Just pointing out that if I understand your stance on the matter you and Ken don't even agree.

Lance Armstrong stopped weight training sometime during his run of 7 straight TdF victories, as per Carmichael. He resumed when he quit cycling, then stopped again (as per Bruyneel) when he resumed bike racing. I see a pattern there.

As for supplementing huge mileage: IIRC, there was some research that shows that running economy (or something like that) can be increased via improved stiffness in calf muscles (or something like that), which can be effected by strength training. Not squats, or benches, or lat pulldowns, or preacher curls. Not even from improved strength, but from increased stiffness. That's the argument to which I was referring. I suspect Jordan and I agree.

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [original PV] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Its also worth noting she weight trained before and after that. Last I checked her 2:19 marathon was still a pretty darn good number. I'd trust her to coach me. I haven't taken the time to read all of the research that is saying A vice B (or B vice A for that matter), but her anecdotal evidence is good enough in my opinion. A bit of cursory research also suggests that Lance and Haile also strength train. Their anecdotal evidence is also perfectly fine in my opinion.

Just a question for clarification: Ken said the following -

Quote:

There can even be a successful argument for world class endurance runners benefitting from strength training as a supplement to their already insane running mileage.[/qoute]

So you are saying that no evidence shows in any way shape or form that strength training can benefit endurance performance?

Just pointing out that if I understand your stance on the matter you and Ken don't even agree.
[/reply]
You don't actually understand what either Ken or I is actually saying. Not surprising, as you said, "anecdotal evidence is perfectly fine in my opinion."

Running makes you someone faster at running. However, in the case of someone like Kastor, she has already hit the absolute limit as to how much she can run. Just as Phelps has hit the limit as to how much he can swim. By "how much," I am referring to total training load, which is a combination of speed (aka, output) and distance/time.

So what her coach needs to figure out is how to allow her body to achieve more load. But, in the case of an athlete like Kastor, she has a problem - she cannot train more. But she also can't just take drugs to allow her to train more. So she has to look at what it is that is limiting her ability to run more. In that case, there are numerous examples of what she might be able to do using resistance training that would allow her to RUN MORE (meaning faster/longer/etc). In other words, weight training doesn't make her faster. But weight training might allow her to increase her training load, and THAT would make her faster. As a for instance, let's say that Deena's left glute medius tends to fatigue before her right glute medius. This imbalance throws off her gait. In that case, addressing the imbalance between her glute meds with resistance training to isolate and activate her left glute medius could be beneficial in allowing her to run longer/faster before her mechanics break down.

This is what most age group athletes fail to realize when they look at someone like Lance, Haile, Deena, Lochte, etc. You've got a LONG way to go before you hit the limit as to how much bike/run/run/swim (respectively) you can do. And until you hit that limit - and need to figure out how to raise that limit - you don't need to look elsewhere.

EDIT: I just saw Ken's example, and while mine is specific to targeting and addressing an example of a very specific issue of imbalance, I think his is more general, but also equally relevant in that it points out the need for EXTREME SPECIFICITY. I.e., "weight training" isn't good. But there can be specific resistance/weight/strength exercises that may be beneficial, either because they are supported by research targeted at runners in general, or because they are exercises targeted at a very specific and identified imbalance.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
Last edited by: Rappstar: Aug 10, 10 9:42
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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its amazing that anyone ever went pro before CORE work was such a fad.

Scott and Allen had secret core training sessions 8x a week back in the day. True story.
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Jordan,

maybe you're reading too much into this or its unclear (it is text and the receiver reads what they want to read rather than what the transmitter may have intended....modulation approaches between receiver and transmitter are not the same like in FM or AM system....but I digress). Let me restate....I'm just saying that 2x15 min of situps will have more fitness benefits than sitting on the couch and will help your 5K time more than just sitting on the couch. That's why I said to do it in front of the TV, not do it "INSTEAD" of running. Did you miss the "in front of the TV/concurrent activity part"?

If you and Ken want to care what other people think or type or say, that's your choice. Internet fora by their very nature will have some information and some misinformation, but the discussion is why most people go to fora and once there, they can use their own personal filters/priorities to pick what they want glean from it.

If we only wanted peer reviewed stuff, we'd never come to a discussion forum, we'd just download published documents, but that by nature is a very solitary and somewhat anti social exercise. The exchange of information and banter and connecting with people who may or may not have the same shared values is why people come to the ST forum. If not, we'd just be hanging out in libraries searching for the published truth with no one to discuss with.

So my input is don't get your blood pressure up about people being dumbass. You might have more in common with the same people you think are being dumbass, but might shut the door on them later in life (personal relationships, business relationships etc) because of what you may read into them having typed in text.

Dev

No, I didn't miss the "in front of TV/concurrent activity part." Let's say that I've actually achieved the amount of run training that I needed to on a given day. I don't actually need to run any more than I did on that day. And, in general, that I don't actually need to run any more than I already do. In that case, sitting on the couch will give me a LOT MORE benefit than doing situps. Because I will be allowing my body to recover. And recovery is when you actually get faster.

Food for thought, Dev - from a training standpoint, you train significantly more hours than anyone on this board, pros included. And yet, miraculously, you are not the fastest person on this board. Of course, this isn't really surprising to you, because you actually do know that finishing order is not directly proportional to training load. But, every so often, you try to convince yourself this isn't the case.

If you actually run an appropriate amount, then doing situps in front of the TV not only will not make you faster, it will likely make you slower because you aren't allowing your body to actually recover. And even if you don't run the appropriate amount, there's nothing to show that doing situps actually has any benefit at all on your running.

So, best case scenario, doing situps does nothing for you. Worse case scenario, it makes you slower.

Of course, we could be talking about some fatass for whom those 2x15min of situps while watching TV might be the ONLY exercise he does all week. In that case, I will submit that doing some exercise of any kind will be better for his 5k time than doing absolutely nothing. So in that lone case, you are correct.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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However, you're assuming that the muscles used for situps are never used for running. If you can do 15 minutes worth of situps, it will likely be beneficial for your 5K. 2x15min during the next time you watch the evening news instead of sitting on the couch :-). That should not take away from S-B-R training, its just concurrent activity with TV watching.


Except that you are doing them when you are supposed to be recovering.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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"Finally, for endurance-dominant sports, one needs to develop muscle-endurance [tens and even hundreds of reps]. If this isn't achieved, a good adaptation to such training won't occur. "

what do triathletes have to offer women? not doing weights will effectively end their gene pool bc no ones going to mate with them.
Last edited by: SeasonsChange: Aug 10, 10 10:07
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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How is your position on this thread consistent with your position on Optygen?
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
In Reply To:

Dev


No, I didn't miss the "in front of TV/concurrent activity part." Let's say that I've actually achieved the amount of run training that I needed to on a given day. I don't actually need to run any more than I did on that day. And, in general, that I don't actually need to run any more than I already do. In that case, sitting on the couch will give me a LOT MORE benefit than doing situps. Because I will be allowing my body to recover. And recovery is when you actually get faster.

Food for thought, Dev - from a training standpoint, you train significantly more hours than anyone on this board, pros included. And yet, miraculously, you are not the fastest person on this board. Of course, this isn't really surprising to you, because you actually do know that finishing order is not directly proportional to training load.

reply]

Hey, did I ever say that I'm the fastest guy on this board? Of course not. There are hundreds of guys around here waaaaay faster . Maybe I picked the wrong parents, or maybe I actually have the right parents but I train dumb. If Mark Allen or Simon Lessing or Thomas Hellriegel followed the identical training I do (as misguided as it may be), they'd very likely be faster because their parent selection is LIKELY better than mine.

However, in 45-49 around here, I'm doing reasonably fine for MY expectations. Maybe I am not PERFORMING TO YOURS or others for the training input, but that's fine...I'm not training to please anyone other than myself. 4 Age group podiums, Kona slot and Clearwater slot in the first half of the year is beyond my wildest expectations for this year so far and I only missed 2 weeks of resistance training (I do it cause I like it....training should be fun....RIGHT?). But really, it's not exclusively about results. There is a process of enjoyment from training that many draw from resistance training.

You, Ken and others look at this largely from the perspective of performance enhancement/race time reduction. Most of us in the age group crowd, don't do this sport for performance alone and most age groupers are time limited so any fitness they do will be additive. They can recover when they sleep, not sitting on a couch. That's suboptimal recovery anyway. You want real recovery then go and sleep.

Sometimes you just can't go swim bike and run. You'll find that out once you have kids, but you won't understand it now....then you do whatever you can do for some fitness. If it means doing bodyweight exercises while your baby is dozing in and out of an afternoon nap, then that just may be all you get...that's really what I was getting at...most age groupers have not run "as much as they need to that day". They barely got a chance to do a workout today.
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Uncle Phil] [ In reply to ]
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How is your position on this thread consistent with your position on Optygen?

LOL
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
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However, you're assuming that the muscles used for situps are never used for running. If you can do 15 minutes worth of situps, it will likely be beneficial for your 5K. 2x15min during the next time you watch the evening news instead of sitting on the couch :-). That should not take away from S-B-R training, its just concurrent activity with TV watching.


Except that you are doing them when you are supposed to be recovering.

Isn't that another thread altogether though? Active recovery vs. ass-sitting recovery?
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Your "for instance" I could totally be led to agree with. Makes a lot of sense. That being said; you didn't put any information in your first response on the matter to that effect. You just said
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All we are saying is "It will NOT make you faster."
which isn't necessarily true. Strength training leading to being able to SBR more leading to getting faster I'll buy. But that still has strength training as an impetus even if it is an indirect one. I don't disagree concerning output and the vast majority of athletes never coming close to that level; I just think its false to say that it never will. At some point, someone will get to that load max, and at that point it time, lifting will enable them to increase that load, thereby making them faster.

I know I will never get to that load max; I (like probably many others) don't care to. I enjoy the sport a lot (for reasons like: racing is fun, something different to do vice just road running, I really like my shiny (semi) new Felt, I get to meet fun fitness minded peope, etc.) but I'd rather look like Hugh Jackman than a super thin endurance athlete any day of the week. I have no problem caveating the argument with saying that in terms of "only endurance performance" that strength training vice more SBR will benefit a fractionally small number of individuals, but thats different than "Not at all"



When someone pulls laws out of their @$$, all we end up with are laws that smell like sh!t. -Skippy
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Most of the guys in the anti weight training crowd here are taking this sport waaaaaaaay to seriously for a bunch of guys who don't get paid to "perform" at this sport. Does anyone really care if you went 2:09 vs 2:11. I can bet that 99.9999995% of spouses could care less about the difference.

99% of spouses secretly likely prefer if you go 10:01 and miss that Kona slot to the guy who just went 9:59 at Placid....this way it's not another 4 months of the IM grind for the family (and the grind is usually worse for them than for the athlete). On the other hand, they might prefer that you get the slot so that you're not a miserable aerobically withered stick sitting in front of the TV watching Kona videos trying to get your motivation up for next year, too weak to carry the garbage to the curb!

Come on dev, is that supposed to be an argument for weight training? A lot of the kona wannabees on here may have their priorities wrong, but that's up to them and their families to define.

I'm one of those endurance geeks (more of a plain old roadie these days) who does do resistance training during the year. Not while I'm racing my bike or doing tri's, but when I'm getting ready for the (alpine) ski season. It's definitely a help there. Could I be faster in road racing and/or tri's if I didn't ski at all and spent the whole winter running in the dark and slogging it out on my trainer? Definitely. But my priorities are what they are. I definitely am not going to judge the 'skinny endurance geeks' for their focus - and I think even for these guys they are not putting in enough time to S/B/R that they should be cutting out training time to go lift weights.

We've all got our priorities and I'm sure a lot of the guys who spend 2 hours a week in the gym as well as doing S/B/R would make their spouses equally happy dropping the weight routine as they would by dropping a couple swims a week. The point is, if you want to be a fast age group triathlete, swimming biking and running are the 3 kings. Everything else is distraction.
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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...But weight training might allow her to increase her training load, and THAT would make her faster. As a for instance, let's say that Deena's left glute medius tends to fatigue before her right glute medius. This imbalance throws off her gait. In that case, addressing the imbalance between her glute meds with resistance training to isolate and activate her left glute medius could be beneficial in allowing her to run longer/faster before her mechanics break down.

This is what most age group athletes fail to realize when they look at someone like Lance, Haile, Deena, Lochte, etc. You've got a LONG way to go before you hit the limit as to how much bike/run/run/swim (respectively) you can do. And until you hit that limit - and need to figure out how to raise that limit - you don't need to look elsewhere.

EDIT: I just saw Ken's example, and while mine is specific to targeting and addressing an example of a very specific issue of imbalance, I think his is more general, but also equally relevant in that it points out the need for EXTREME SPECIFICITY. I.e., "weight training" isn't good. But there can be specific resistance/weight/strength exercises that may be beneficial, either because they are supported by research targeted at runners in general, or because they are exercises targeted at a very specific and identified imbalance.


Even though you are contradicting your previous arguments slightly, it's nice to finally see a statement/example that makes some sense. I always found these discussions confusing/ridiculous because the back and forth about whether or not "strength training helps endurance activities" doesn't answer the question, "How?" and "What kind of strength training?" I strength train. I lift upper body because I want to, not because I think it will help me S/B/R faster. I like to be physically strong. If that makes me a bit slower as a result of "extra bulk" then so be it, though at 5'11" and 165, nobody has ever accused me of being huge. I do lower body strength exercises & lifts on the advice of my PT, who found glute max & med imbalances that were resulting in leg injuries. I've been injury-free this year for the first season ever, and I am PR'ing because I stayed healthy and was able to maintain a more consistent training load & therefore...(gasp) get faster. Yes, as an age grouper, I have a long way to go in terms of hitting the S/B/R limit. I get that. But for me, strength training has its place in that I can increase that limit only if I can stay on the road & not be nursing injuries.
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [M~] [ In reply to ]
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"Isn't that another thread altogether though? Active recovery vs. ass-sitting recovery? "

I would be glad to write the foreword for the ass-sitting recovery book.
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [original PV] [ In reply to ]
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So if we were going to come up with a position for the anti-strength training proponents, it would be:

Traditional strength training will not directly help you perform at a higher level for endurance events. Following the principle of specificity and performing the movements that you are actually going to do with higher intensity at regular intervals will.

Yes?


Part of the Slowtwitch Strength Training Association. Picking up something heavier than a bike makes me happy.
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Dev


No, I didn't miss the "in front of TV/concurrent activity part." Let's say that I've actually achieved the amount of run training that I needed to on a given day. I don't actually need to run any more than I did on that day. And, in general, that I don't actually need to run any more than I already do. In that case, sitting on the couch will give me a LOT MORE benefit than doing situps. Because I will be allowing my body to recover. And recovery is when you actually get faster.

Food for thought, Dev - from a training standpoint, you train significantly more hours than anyone on this board, pros included. And yet, miraculously, you are not the fastest person on this board. Of course, this isn't really surprising to you, because you actually do know that finishing order is not directly proportional to training load.

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Hey, did I ever say that I'm the fastest guy on this board? Of course not. There are hundreds of guys around here waaaaay faster . Maybe I picked the wrong parents, or maybe I actually have the right parents but I train dumb. If Mark Allen or Simon Lessing or Thomas Hellriegel followed the identical training I do (as misguided as it may be), they'd very likely be faster because their parent selection is LIKELY better than mine.

However, in 45-49 around here, I'm doing reasonably fine for MY expectations. Maybe I am not PERFORMING TO YOURS or others for the training input, but that's fine...I'm not training to please anyone other than myself. 4 Age group podiums, Kona slot and Clearwater slot in the first half of the year is beyond my wildest expectations for this year so far and I only missed 2 weeks of resistance training (I do it cause I like it....training should be fun....RIGHT?). But really, it's not exclusively about results. There is a process of enjoyment from training that many draw from resistance training.

You, Ken and others look at this largely from the perspective of performance enhancement/race time reduction. Most of us in the age group crowd, don't do this sport for performance alone and most age groupers are time limited so any fitness they do will be additive. They can recover when they sleep, not sitting on a couch. That's suboptimal recovery anyway. You want real recovery then go and sleep.

Sometimes you just can't go swim bike and run. You'll find that out once you have kids, but you won't understand it now....then you do whatever you can do for some fitness. If it means doing bodyweight exercises while your baby is dozing in and out of an afternoon nap, then that just may be all you get...that's really what I was getting at...most age groupers have not run "as much as they need to that day". They barely got a chance to do a workout today.


As I stated before, I think this statement above is the key. I don't think Dev is arguing that strength training will definitely make you faster. He's simply saying that, at least in his case, it make sense for him for other reasons. Maybe it makes him faster or maybe slower, but that's inconsequential to him (at least that's what I get out of it Dev). I, for one, am a big fan of doing things I enjoy. Triathlon is one thing I enjoy. I also enjoy Nordic and Alpine skiing, baseball, woodworking, coaching my son's little league team, etc., and yes, weight lifting too. Does Nordic skiing help my running, biking, or swimming? How about Alpine skiing? I don't know and don't care either.

Jordan, on the other hand, make his living by being successful (i.e. fast) at triathlon. If I were him, I'd be doing anything possible to be faster. I don't know if that includes weight lifting or not, and I'm not smart enough to figure it out. He's probably much smarter than me (though we're both Engineers ;-) ), but I'm also pretty certain that he's probably looking for every edge he can get. Right now, the evidence has convinced him that strength training will not make him faster. I have no beef with that. In five years, there may be more evidence that convinces him otherwise.
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Uncle Phil] [ In reply to ]
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How is your position on this thread consistent with your position on Optygen?

I think there's a measurable difference between pointing out that strength is rarely - if ever - a limiter in endurance sports, therefore doing training designed to enhance one's strength is pointless. If, to just throw out a contrary opinion, you wanted to say that you believed in weight training because you believed it enhanced proprioception and/or motor control/muscle recruitment, then I'd consider that a more interesting debate, provided you actually had something that showed that.

There are significant limitations in the studies proving that Optygen has no effect, most notably extremely small sample sizes. But really it's the presence of studies that do show significant p-values with the contrary conclusions that makes me think not that Optygen definitely does work - but more that there isn't proof that is does not work. An example study, not on Optygen in particular, but on Rhodiola, with significant p-values on reduction on BLA and Creatine Kinase (muscle damage marker) levels after aerobic exercise: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20308973 Of course, the above study does not show an effect of Rhodiola on VO2Max, though there is that study - of course with limitations just like any study - to substantiate those claims as well.

As I say in all discussions on Optygen, there is data on both sides of the argument. And there is. Of course, you can choose to pick apart much of the supporting data for not being from US Journals, for having flaws, etc. And I'd consider those to be valid concerns. But there is published data supporting the efficacy of the ingredients in Optygen. And so I choose to do the best that I can about making an objective evaluation as to it's effectiveness. And I encourage other people to do the same.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [ponyboy] [ In reply to ]
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Well I guess you'd have to ask Jordan since I am on the "I love strength training for my own personal reasons" side :)



When someone pulls laws out of their @$$, all we end up with are laws that smell like sh!t. -Skippy
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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So what her coach needs to figure out is how to allow her body to achieve more load. But, in the case of an athlete like Kastor, she has a problem - she cannot train more. But she also can't just take drugs to allow her to train more. So she has to look at what it is that is limiting her ability to run more. In that case, there are numerous examples of what she might be able to do using resistance training that would allow her to RUN MORE (meaning faster/longer/etc). In other words, weight training doesn't make her faster. But weight training might allow her to increase her training load, and THAT would make her faster. As a for instance, let's say that Deena's left glute medius tends to fatigue before her right glute medius. This imbalance throws off her gait. In that case, addressing the imbalance between her glute meds with resistance training to isolate and activate her left glute medius could be beneficial in allowing her to run longer/faster before her mechanics break down.


Even if you aren't maxed out on training, every body has imbalances.

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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [M~] [ In reply to ]
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Pretty good troll Desert Dude, you got a good one going, minus points for outing yourself as trolling though.

I was unaware that Tudor Bompa had debate settiling opinions, and yes I do know who he is :-)


no kidding!!! It isn't like the guys name is Paulo or anything! :)


I am surprised that no one has figured out that Paulo and DD are the same person, just that DD responds with more than opne sentence.

===============
Proud member of the MSF (Maple Syrup Mafia)
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [schroeder] [ In reply to ]
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So what her coach needs to figure out is how to allow her body to achieve more load. But, in the case of an athlete like Kastor, she has a problem - she cannot train more. But she also can't just take drugs to allow her to train more. So she has to look at what it is that is limiting her ability to run more. In that case, there are numerous examples of what she might be able to do using resistance training that would allow her to RUN MORE (meaning faster/longer/etc). In other words, weight training doesn't make her faster. But weight training might allow her to increase her training load, and THAT would make her faster. As a for instance, let's say that Deena's left glute medius tends to fatigue before her right glute medius. This imbalance throws off her gait. In that case, addressing the imbalance between her glute meds with resistance training to isolate and activate her left glute medius could be beneficial in allowing her to run longer/faster before her mechanics break down.


Even if you aren't maxed out on training, every body has imbalances.

That's true, but they may not ever limit you until you start to hit those maxes... Anyway, I certainly never said that resistance training wasn't good or useful for addressing imbalances. It is. In fact, I'd argue that it's primary use, if not it's ONLY use for endurance athletes.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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If you want to have a discussion of "what can a working parent do that will enable them to do their best at a triathlon despite working a full time job and trying to raise kids," that's an entirely different discussion. But then don't expect that you can have any sort of repeatability, reliability, or consensus to your arguments. It's not gonna be there. Did you PR because of weights or because your boss decided to give you Friday afternoon off? When that becomes the sort of information that you have to parse between, you are venturing into ridiculousness.

If you want to say "doing weights is better than doing NOTHING," then fine, there's not gonna be any data to contradict that. But there's also not gonna be any data to support that. That's a case of "I'm just gonna go out and have fun and do the best I can with the time available."

And I have no problem with that. I know plenty of folks that squeeze in great training on their commutes to work. Is it ideal to go sit in a boardroom for two hours afterwards? No, but it's better than not riding at all because they have to sit in a board room.

The problem is when you start trying to actual substantiate claims as being "factual" or true in general. You learn little to nothing about human physiology from studying the training habits of overworked parents.

So, please go ahead and say "I've got a full time job, kids, and a bunch of other interests. So I'm figuring that doing some situps is gonna be better than just watching TV after spending all day in meetings. I'd love to go for a run, but I can't because Mondays are the nights we all watch Jeopardy together." That's fine. I've got no problems at all with that.

But that definitely doesn't mean that 2x15min situps will help your 5k time. You could just as easily say that running around with your kids in the back yard for 30min will help your 5k time. In either case, it's purely a guess. And if you want to be clear that's all it is, then fine. But it's when people aren't clear about that. And they mistakenly think that strength training is actual necessary or optimal that it becomes an issue.

Everyone has to make compromises. Age groupers often have to make a lot of compromises. But what's instructive is not knowing what you can hodgepodge together to actually perform decently. It's instructive to know what is optimal. If you know what's optimal, then you can make better decisions about what is really most important. And then you can also work to organize your training so that you get that stuff done.

If I want to know how to train high school kids for XC country, should I look at how Geb trains or should I look at how a bunch of random AG runners train? I'm not saying that HS XC kids need to train like Geb. But I'm not gonna learn ANYTHING about how they should train from looking at the collective training habits of random AGers.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [ponyboy] [ In reply to ]
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So if we were going to come up with a position for the anti-strength training proponents, it would be:

Traditional strength training will not directly help you perform at a higher level for endurance events. Following the principle of specificity and performing the movements that you are actually going to do with higher intensity at regular intervals will.

Yes?

That seems like a reasonable statement to me.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [original PV] [ In reply to ]
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Your "for instance" I could totally be led to agree with. Makes a lot of sense. That being said; you didn't put any information in your first response on the matter to that effect. You just said
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All we are saying is "It will NOT make you faster."
which isn't necessarily true. Strength training leading to being able to SBR more leading to getting faster I'll buy. But that still has strength training as an impetus even if it is an indirect one. I don't disagree concerning output and the vast majority of athletes never coming close to that level; I just think its false to say that it never will. At some point, someone will get to that load max, and at that point it time, lifting will enable them to increase that load, thereby making them faster.

Nope. Despite being the guy who seems to continually bump this stupid thread, I feel compelled to reply again...

It should say, "Someone will get to that load max, and at that point in time, lifting *MIGHT* enable them to increase that load, thereby making them faster." It would depend entirely on what it is that is limiting them.

As an example, Michael Phelps might hit the absolute limit as to how fast he can swim. At that point, something like his reaction time (when the gun goes off vs. how fast he is off the blocks) could become a major factor in his races. He's already won races by a smaller margin than the difference in many top athletes' reaction times. In that case, perhaps strength training could help him with his speed off of the blocks, which could help his performance.

Or, to carry on with Phelps, the fastest that ANYONE goes when they swim is when they push off the wall. So - theoretically - Phelps might run into a point where he simply needs to push off the wall faster in order to get any faster. In that case as well, I can theoretically see strength training helping him.

Or, to reiterate my particular theoretical example of Kastor perhaps suffering from an imbalance in the endurance of one glute med vs. the other. In that case, *RESISTANCE* (NOT STRENGTH) training could be used to help correct that imbalance, which could ultimately lead to an ability to increase training load, which would make her faster.

But those are very specific, very targeted cases. That was my hesitation with writing those examples in the first place. I knew that someone would misinterpret them as meaning in general that "Strength training leading to being able to SBR more leading to getting faster" which is absolutely NOT what I am saying.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Ok, well maybe I am just having a hard time understanding what you're saying. Maybe I just ain't smart enough. I'll trust what Geb does though. Here's what Geb says on the matter (you may say he's doing what you are saying, I don't know as I didn't do the interview, but he does a boat load of strength work, and not just a canoe, a yachts worth)

http://www.ethiopianreview.com/articles/32874

"You do the mileage, do the strength training and then the speed work."

"In the early evening, I spend most of my time in the gym doing strength work."

"Then I will do some strength training. That is seven days a week, except for Sunday, when I only do the morning session."

His 2:03 marathon is evidence enough for me. He advocates strength training. My guess is you don't care to show me that he is only advocating resistance training in an effort to compensate for imbalances; but I don't think thats what he'd say. My guess is he'd be telling all of us to hit the gym "And he fits it all in around a nine-to-five desk job running his thriving business empire in Ethiopia, employing 600 workers."

So no more office job being an excuse, he kicks ass.



When someone pulls laws out of their @$$, all we end up with are laws that smell like sh!t. -Skippy
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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I won't say that Dev is the master of the constantly changing argument tactic but he does regularly partake in it.

Love it when people have the 'nards to say what others are thinking...

And Dev, no I'm not a stalker as you previously claimed. I just happen to click on a number of posts and you happen to respond to many of them. I'd break anyone's stones, even my own, if I read the amount of confusing, misguided and incorrect statements you have made - particularly in the overly self assured manner that you have made them.

I will admit sheepishly that the time you caught me in your house dressed in your men's size small work suit writing "I Love You Dev" in pink lipstick on your bathroom mirror, now that was stalking. The judge, the prosecutor and I all agreed that I stepped over the line. I will not do that again (unless the voices get too loud that is).

Hugs,
SHB
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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I was in a local bike race last weekend. It was about 80k in length. I was in the main group for the full length of the event. Bike racing is interesting because you get a certain range in sizes competing at the higher end - and the 15 - 20 guys in this group were a good example of that - they ranged from skinny dorks like myself, to much larger guys bulging with muscles. Despite the differences we all managed to stay together despite a fairly hard pace from the get-go and some moderately hard climbs, all the way until the final field sprint at the end - which was actually won, on a slight up-hill sprint by the smallest and leanest guy in the group. However, it was interesting that in this small subject group, muscle size and shape seemed irrelevant in terms of giving everyone a chance to compete!


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Cat 3?

You don't see as many of the bulging muscles guys in the 1-2's.
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [original PV] [ In reply to ]
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He never actually says in that interview what his "strength" training actually consists of. So I won't speculate. But I do love how you cherry pick the quote that says "In the early evening, I spend most of my time in the gym doing strength work." But then you conveniently leave out the very next sentence, which says, "But even if I am in the gym, I will still do 10k on the treadmill and another 10k on the bike."

Or, we can at look at your particular n=1 argument another way. Haile runs in Adidas shoes. Based off your logic, you should probably also run in Adidas if you want to run fast. Does that make sense? The actual inference that it's logical to make is that running in Adidas shoes does not appear to limit Haile's running. Of course, that would be supported by the fact that Adidas shoes have not won a statistically significant number of marathons in the past 10 years. So rather than looking at the one guy who does do strength training, why not look at the legions of other enormously successfully track and road racers who do not use strength training.

Then again, I can't believe (actually, I unfortunately can believe) that the act that he encourages "strength training" is "good enough for you," despite you having absolutely no idea what he's actually doing in the workouts that he describes as "strength training." Is he doing squats? Or bench press? Both? One legged squats or two? Parallel or box squats? How many reps? How many sets? Of course, I am sure that none of that would matter, right. Three sets of five rep bench press is strength training and so is five reps of 10 rep bulgarian squats, so they must have the exact same effect...

Furthermore, that assumes he is actually using the term in the appropriate physiological sense. In other words, that he's using the term strength specifically, as opposed to colloquially, as most people do, to actually mean something much more general. True strength training means that he is working to increase his strength - his peak force, aka "one rep max." My guess is that he actually doesn't give two shits about his actual strength. What is talking about is something that would probably more closely resemble balance or coordination exercises. But that's purely a guess. But again, that probably doesn't matter to you either.

Beyond that, there are numerous world class athletes who are tremendously successful in spite of things they do. Go ahead and eat like Michael Phelps - basically 100% refined carbohydrates - and let me know how that works out for you.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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I was in a local bike race last weekend. It was about 80k in length. I was in the main group for the full length of the event. Bike racing is interesting because you get a certain range in sizes competing at the higher end - and the 15 - 20 guys in this group were a good example of that - they ranged from skinny dorks like myself, to much larger guys bulging with muscles. Despite the differences we all managed to stay together despite a fairly hard pace from the get-go and some moderately hard climbs, all the way until the final field sprint at the end - which was actually won, on a slight up-hill sprint by the smallest and leanest guy in the group. However, it was interesting that in this small subject group, muscle size and shape seemed irrelevant in terms of giving everyone a chance to compete!

You know what I find interesting? When you look at the Tour de France or the Giro d'Italia, EVERYONE is a skinny dork. There are a couple dudes that, relatively speaking, are bulging with muscles. But they get dropped pretty damn fast when the road goes up, and usually they don't catch back on when the road goes back down.

So, yeah, if you want to be *a* cyclist, you can probably do it with a bunch of different body types. But if you actually want to be a good cyclist, it's pretty clear what your body type needs to be.

Of course, there are always exceptions to the rule. Look at Chris Solinsky. He's more than 10kg heavier than the next heaviest guy to break 27min for 10k. But he's the exception to the rule. Do you know why that phrase exists? Because there are in fact "rules" about what it takes to be successful. And, of course, it'd be pretty foolish to overlook the fact that Solinksy may have broken 27min, but he's over 1/2 a lap behind the WR time for the distance...

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Beyond that, there are numerous world class athletes who are tremendously successful in spite of things they do. Go ahead and eat like Michael Phelps - basically 100% refined carbohydrates - and let me know how that works out for you.

JR,

There is a dangerous phenomena here the forum to always be quick to point out the exceptions and not the general trends. Joe Bonness does three IM's in a month, so it must be OK for me and everyone else to do that as well! . . . and so on.

What people should really be doing is not looking at what one athlete does, but look generally at the routines and what the top 50 - 100 athletes are doing. That's where you will see the patterns and that's where you should draw good information from.




Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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"If you want to say "doing weights is better than doing NOTHING," then fine, there's not gonna be any data to contradict that."

Hey Jordan,

You finally got it!!! And guess what, this board is largely populated by time limited age groupers not pro triathletes with a ton of time to maximize S-B-R training. My number 1 reason when I participate in any thread about training with OTHER AGE GROUPERS is to help them figure out how to manage time and get more training done in limited time slots. That's how I got 3 people 3 PB's at Ironman LP last month with one Kona slot out of that group off an average of 10 hours per week. Age groupers need to approach training from the constraints of their lives and then fit things around it....when we try to do the watered down Pro plan some other aspect of our life, beyond training is usually negatively impacted

Not many age groupers have that figured out. They squander time and complain they have no time to train. There is never "no time"...there are just "different priorities". But if they want to make training a priority, they'll find ways. Sometimes they may need some help being innovative with time and sometimes it may involve doing "whatever fitness" when they cannot access S-B-R....better than sitting on the couch.

Dev
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [gbot] [ In reply to ]
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Cat 3?

Mixed Cats - mostly strong Master's guys.



Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Dev I think you just contradicted what Rappstar has more than adequately explained in this thread. Limited time to train is a reason to NOT do weight training.

Doing less S/B/R is NOT 'maximizing available time'. 'Maximizing available time' is figuring out exactly how many hours a week you have to train and then splitting that time out amongst focused and smart swim, bike and run sessions.
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Cat 3?

Mixed Cats - mostly strong Master's guys.

Most of my races this year have been mixed 3/4 races - I've noticed the same thing - a big range of body types, from skinny climber looking guys to totally musclebound types.

Another thing I've noticed is that the musclebound guys ONLY win flat crits. The skinny guys win all types. And there are hardly any big guys in the 1/2's.
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Hello Rappstar and All,

When I am injured, I am usually assigned some form of physical thearapy, often entailing some specific resistance training.

Are you doing any resistance training to recover from your accident?

=================

Wiki:

Physical therapy (also physiotherapy) is a health profession that assesses and provides treatment to individuals to develop, maintain and restore maximum movement and function throughout life. This includes providing treatment in circumstances where movement and function are threatened by aging, injury, disease or environmental factors.

===========================

When injured I cannot train some systems. Injury prevention is an important element of training to me - just like nutrition.

I am not assigned more swim, bike, or run for the injured system to get it healthy. Often just the opposite - asked to 'take it easy - until the injury heals or is mitigated.

You cannot play when you are injured - at least not as well as when you are healthy.

Rotator cuff injuries for example.

I believe rotator cuff exercises can help prevent shoulder injury from swimming and have read several articles to that effect, besides the doctors advice I have received for the problem.

I see some resistance training as helpful when injured, and also in the gray area (and difficult to prove area) of preventing an injury before it would occur.

For instance:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...es/instance/1839980/

This introductory resistance training program is designed to minimize injury risk, improve golf swing speed and the overall fitness of recreational golfers. This article aims to introduce to the Chiropractor the basic concepts sport specific resistance training, periodization models of resistance training and proposes a year round conditioning resistance training program specific to golf. The exercises have been chosen based on the best biomechanical evidence to minimize injury risk and on the research supporting the use of movement specific training adaptations. Upper body strength exercises are performed standing to develop both trunk and hip stabilizing musculature and the primary movement of the golf swing.

============================




I recall chatting with Arnold Palmer some years back, when he was in the sunset of his career, and asking him about what he did to train, if anything, for his golf matches.

He said he used the "Bullworker" regularly and if he missed a session his swing went to hell because of his degenerative back. http://www.thebullworker.com/

I think when you see enough n=1 annecdotal examples you begin to believe that there is value in dry land resistance training for endurance athletes, old ones anyway.

Cheers,

Neal

Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster
Last edited by: nealhe: Aug 10, 10 13:35
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [gbot] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe you did not read what I have been saying. When you cannot access S-B-R, there are still fitness options using body weight that are better than sitting on the couch.
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [original PV] [ In reply to ]
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Ok, well maybe I am just having a hard time understanding what you're saying. Maybe I just ain't smart enough. I'll trust what Geb does though. Here's what Geb says on the matter (you may say he's doing what you are saying, I don't know as I didn't do the interview, but he does a boat load of strength work, and not just a canoe, a yachts worth)

http://www.ethiopianreview.com/articles/32874

"You do the mileage, do the strength training and then the speed work."

"In the early evening, I spend most of my time in the gym doing strength work."

"Then I will do some strength training. That is seven days a week, except for Sunday, when I only do the morning session."

His 2:03 marathon is evidence enough for me. He advocates strength training. My guess is you don't care to show me that he is only advocating resistance training in an effort to compensate for imbalances; but I don't think thats what he'd say. My guess is he'd be telling all of us to hit the gym "And he fits it all in around a nine-to-five desk job running his thriving business empire in Ethiopia, employing 600 workers."

So no more office job being an excuse, he kicks ass.


So you are willing to follow Geb's plan (in as little detail as is available) because he is a world class marathoner? Why not listen to Rappstar, who is a world class triathlete?

===============
Proud member of the MSF (Maple Syrup Mafia)
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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I know you don't care how well it (eating like Michael Phelps or anything else for that matter) works for me. My personal reasonings for weight training differ greatly from many others. I understand you are advocating what current research you say shows. I know you're an Ivy League engineer fellow and I may just be a midwestern university type guy and I understand that n=1 cases shouldn't be taken as "What's good for the goose is good for the gander" but I still think that we can look to the leaders of sport for training information.

Deena said this:
When I get up from a nap, then we’re off to gym for strength work, which we have emphasized greatly this year, getting in the weight room and doing drills, plyometrics, weight lifting, and core work. After that we go for a 4- to 6-mile run, and then we go home and refuel again, and get to bed early to prepare ourselves for the next day. So, the days are pretty monotonous and regimented. There isn’t much room to do errands and that [laughing], so you need a willing spouse or someone to help out. Being a professional runner is a full-time job.
http://www.nyrr.org/...009/kastor040708.asp

Maybe that fits in with what you are saying, I have no idea. I don't exactly understand what you are advocating. If in 50 years scientific research proved that strength training showed a positive reaction on endurance performance would you then advocate it?



When someone pulls laws out of their @$$, all we end up with are laws that smell like sh!t. -Skippy
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [nealhe] [ In reply to ]
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Are you doing any resistance training to recover from your accident?

You bet I am. My right knee took a wicked blow in the accident, and the docs were convinced I'd fractured it. Fortunately, I did not, but there was significant soft tissue damage. And I also snapped my pelvis pretty badly out of whack, and had a large edema in my groin, likely from seat getting slammed into the soft tissue there. And, of course, the never damage to my left brachial plexus. So, you bet I'm doing resistance training to work through the issues associated with that. But I also worked with someone to come up with a very specific plan to actually target those specific problems - and the couple of unfortunate problems that arose from me trying to do too much too soon before I had corrected the initial root problems.

I have not - and would never - say that resistance training doesn't play a huge role in rehabilitation.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe you did not read what I have been saying. When you cannot access S-B-R, there are still fitness options using body weight that are better than sitting on the couch.

Ahh, understood.

I'm lucky enough that I can basically always access s/b/r. Honestly I have a hard time imagining how someone would push for optimal triathlon results (such as a kona slot) when they were 'lifestyle-limited' enough that they couldn't get out for a run or ride the trainer.
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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"If you want to say "doing weights is better than doing NOTHING," then fine, there's not gonna be any data to contradict that."

Hey Jordan,

You finally got it!!! And guess what, this board is largely populated by time limited age groupers not pro triathletes with a ton of time to maximize S-B-R training. My number 1 reason when I participate in any thread about training with OTHER AGE GROUPERS is to help them figure out how to manage time and get more training done in limited time slots. That's how I got 3 people 3 PB's at Ironman LP last month with one Kona slot out of that group off an average of 10 hours per week. Age groupers need to approach training from the constraints of their lives and then fit things around it....when we try to do the watered down Pro plan some other aspect of our life, beyond training is usually negatively impacted

Not many age groupers have that figured out. They squander time and complain they have no time to train. There is never "no time"...there are just "different priorities". But if they want to make training a priority, they'll find ways. Sometimes they may need some help being innovative with time and sometimes it may involve doing "whatever fitness" when they cannot access S-B-R....better than sitting on the couch.

Dev

But then why say "situps." I have one of these - I got it when I was rowing. How about 2x15min on this instead? http://www.xiser.com/

Or 2x15min with a jump rope?

Or any other very portable purely endurance/aerobic based exercise?

Why did you choose situps? That's what I've got a problem with. If it is whatever fitness then just say "whatever fitness," as you eventually did. The only reason that I "finally got it," is because you finally admitted that it's simply doing something. It's not because stronger or improved non-specific abdominal endurance will improve your 5k. It's because being active for 30min vs. 0min is going to help your 5k. It was your lack of specificity that prevented you from making a coherent point. There are numerous examples of things you can do instead of situps (or resistance-type exercises) that will pay MUCH bigger dividends because they are developing general aerobic fitness, which offers significantly better crossover than resistance training. So I have no problem with recommending doing something instead of nothing. But I do have a problem if situps are the first sort of thing you'd choose, instead of any of the better options.

Of course, if it's situps or nothing, then yes, do situps. But I have a very hard time figuring out when situps would be the ONLY option...

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [original PV] [ In reply to ]
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What I continue to have problems with is that you keep posting all these articles that basically give ZERO detail on what the training actually consists of. What sort of plyometrics is Deena doing? What sort of strength training? There are plenty of athletes - even VERY good ones - who don't actually understand that the term "strength training" actually means. And that's largely the fault of trainers & coaches, who also often don't know what it means. Just because it involves a gym, it doesn't mean it's "strength" training. Not only do you not have any idea what sort of strength training Deena is doing, you don't even have any idea if she's actually doing the sort of work that technically would be considered strength training in the first place. In other words, what Deena describes is basically totally meaningless as a guide to anyone who wants to understand how she trains. You know essentially nothing about what her workouts are. Is that 4-6mile run fast? Slow? Fartlek? Again, no idea.

That's basically an anecdotal summary in vague terms. It's not training information. It'd be the equivalent of a chef telling you that the way to make foie gras was to get some goose liver, grind it up, and cook it. Does that actually tell you ANYTHING? No.

I don't need 50yrs of research. I just need some research. And your smattering of ultra-vague anecdotes is not that.

Let's try this another way. You've read that Deena and Geb both advocate strength training. So why don't you tell me what exactly you plan to do in the gym as a result of what you've read?

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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I understand that they don't say exactly what they are doing (Geb doesn't for obvious reasons). Don't disagree there. I'm not claiming their interviews substitute for scientific research. I tri and run for fun, not for competitive reasons, so what they do or don't do in the gym doesn't concern me. Like I said I'd rather go more for the muscle bulk and just do tris and runs for fun. I am not trying to be offensive in anyway, I know you are a smart guy, but if you read my posts I'm not telling anyone to do anything. I'm not advocating one side versus another, I am just saying that Geb and Deena (along with others) say they do strength training. Needless to say I don't have access to their coaches and what training they do in the gym on a day to day basis, I'm just a regular guy, I can't call them up on the phone; but when I see a debate such as this that has two sides (with experienced athletes on both) I like to understand more about it, for my own edification not to implement their training regimen. What are the difference between all of the terms? Strength training vs resistance training vs weight training? I'll admit, I don't know.



When someone pulls laws out of their @$$, all we end up with are laws that smell like sh!t. -Skippy
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [original PV] [ In reply to ]
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I am just saying that Geb and Deena (along with others) say they do strength training... What are the difference between all of the terms? Strength training vs resistance training vs weight training? I'll admit, I don't know.

If you don't know, then how are you arguing anything?

The only way traditional weight training, i.e. pick a heavy weight up and put it down, will help endurance sports is if you are doing things like sets of 3x500.

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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I just picked situps because one of the posters said situps won't help your running. I gave an example of how it would help your running more than the other option of sitting on the couch. There was no "final admission"...it was right in the first post when I compared it to sitting on the couch (nothing at all). Jumping rope, or doing a portable row machine would no doubt be better. My main point is doing something over nothing. If that was not clear in the first post, hopefully after around 40 you're finally getting it. Just remember this for when you have a 6 month old and a 2.5 year old in the house :-). If you are an XC skier, 2x15 minute situps over the couch sitting option is actually reasonably good time usage :-).
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [original PV] [ In reply to ]
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Strength - in the precise sense of the word - means the ability to exert force on an a physical object using muscles (thanks Wikipedia). Strength training is designed to increase strength (duh), which means it is designed to increase to force you can exert on a physical object. Force is NOT time dependent. Strength is basically a "one shot deal." How strong you are means how much can you squat, how high can you jump, how far can you throw, etc. Essentially, it is designed to maximize the peak force of muscle contraction, anaerobic endurance, etc. If you are a high jumper, shot putter, pitcher, etc. then strength is VERY important to you.

Weight training simply means training that is done with weights - free-weights, things like kettlebells, or even machines (which could include hydraulics, though I wouldn't). Really, I'd restrict it to things like freeweights and kettlebells - "heavy shit," to put it bluntly. Holding a 45lb plate over your head for an hour is weight training, but it's not strength training. Make sense?

Resistance training is a slightly more general term that I use to expand on weight training to also include things like cabled-machines but also elastic bands. Technically, those things aren't weights - especially elastic bands - so it's incorrect to call them weight training. Basically, anything that puts a force across your muscle is "resistance" training, so even pedaling a bike is resistance training, but generally, it's a more specific way to talk about what most people do in a gym without mis-using the word "strength." When I go to the gym for rehab, I am doing resistance exercises - with weights, cables, and bands. I am NOT doing strength training.

Squat up and down with one leg - holding no weights. Just your body weight. If you can do this, you have enough strength to pedal a bicycle at a very high level. More than enough in fact. So you don't actually need any more. It doesn't do anything for you. What you need is more POWER, specifically over the duration of time that is relevant to my event. Power is the ability to generate force *over time.* If I race the 4km pursuit on the track, I don't care about how much force - peak force - I can generate. I care about how much force I can generate over a period of 4-5 minutes. And those two numbers are not related. In other words, even the most unfit person generally has more than enough strength to generate the force required to be a world class pursuiter. What they lack is the endurance to generate the power that is required to be a world class pursuiter. And strength and endurance do not correlate.

This is the importance of terminology and specificity. So, yeah, Geb and Deena and others say they do strength training. But that is basically so vague as to be meaningless. And that's assuming that they are even using it in the correct manner, which is a big assumption, even for athletes as successful as they are.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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I'm afraid the weight training thing is like a Haitian zombie- it just keeps getting up...

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Now all of that makes a lot more sense :) Thank you for the clarification. Makes sense that a power lifter focusing on a one squat max and Contador doing god knows how many pedal strokes would require drastically different workouts. I guess my uneducated opinion would be that one leg squats over time (that really helped clarify your point btw) would be strength training, but I see exactly your point. I'd really still like to know what Geb and Deena actually do in the gym.

Digression: Did my brother help you out with your surefire decision?



When someone pulls laws out of their @$$, all we end up with are laws that smell like sh!t. -Skippy
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Hey Dev, I got into pretty decent cycling shape by eating ice cream, Snickers & Mars bars, and potato chips at ~2hr intervals every day. You should give it a shot!


<If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough>
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Khai] [ In reply to ]
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Hey Dev, I got into pretty decent cycling shape by eating ice cream, Snickers & Mars bars, and potato chips at ~2hr intervals every day. You should give it a shot!

You're posting in the wrong thread.

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...;;page=unread#unread

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [original PV] [ In reply to ]
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Digression: Did my brother help you out with your surefire decision?

Yes, but then he also made it worse by recommending several other brands that he thought I ought to look at...

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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What did you end up deciding on?



When someone pulls laws out of their @$$, all we end up with are laws that smell like sh!t. -Skippy
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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I just picked situps because one of the posters said situps won't help your running. I gave an example of how it would help your running more than the other option of sitting on the couch. There was no "final admission"...it was right in the first post when I compared it to sitting on the couch (nothing at all). Jumping rope, or doing a portable row machine would no doubt be better. My main point is doing something over nothing. If that was not clear in the first post, hopefully after around 40 you're finally getting it. Just remember this for when you have a 6 month old and a 2.5 year old in the house :-). If you are an XC skier, 2x15 minute situps over the couch sitting option is actually reasonably good time usage :-).


For an XC skier this makes slightly more sense as it's unlikely that every XC skier has one of those funny XC machines in their house. However there are likely WAY more intelligent things you could do in your home if your goal was to be a faster XC skier, than situps.

For a triathlete - what time-limited triathlete doesn't own a trainer? If you have time to do situps, you have time to get on the trainer. This is where your argument falls apart. Riding the trainer is at least as easy from a time management standpoint as doing situps. For 99% of people, so is running. The only thing that gets difficult is swimming and even then, it's very unlikely that the triathlete who can't access the pool should be cutting out bike/run time to do situps or any other sort of easy weight training exercise.

For most of us, running or biking (trainer or outside) is easier from a time management perspective than getting to the gym.
Last edited by: gbot: Aug 10, 10 15:53
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Squat up and down with one leg - holding no weights. Just your body weight.

Have you ever been able to do this? I can't come close.

http://www.youtube.com/...&feature=related

Ride Scoozy Electric Bicycles
http://www.RideScoozy.com
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [msuguy512] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
In Reply To:

Squat up and down with one leg - holding no weights. Just your body weight.


Have you ever been able to do this? I can't come close.

http://www.youtube.com/...&feature=related

I wish I could do that. Oh, you mean the one-legged squat? Never mind.

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [msuguy512] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
In Reply To:

Squat up and down with one leg - holding no weights. Just your body weight.


Have you ever been able to do this? I can't come close.

http://www.youtube.com/...&feature=related

All the time in martial arts.

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [original PV] [ In reply to ]
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What did you end up deciding on?

The Saint headlamp as a "starter." And I've narrowed it down to about FIVE others after that. ;)

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [msuguy512] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
In Reply To:
Squat up and down with one leg - holding no weights. Just your body weight.

Have you ever been able to do this? I can't come close.

http://www.youtube.com/...&feature=related

I have a harder time doing it on my right leg, cause the stability in my right knee is still not great. Left leg is no problem, though I'm not sure I get quite as deep as she does. I'd wager I've got more distance to travel though...

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [msuguy512] [ In reply to ]
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Have you ever been able to do this? I can't come close.

http://www.youtube.com/...&feature=related

I'd Bompa that.

-Jot


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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Oh, like you don't have any of your clients weight training. ;)

-Jot
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
(....)

Squat up and down with one leg - holding no weights. Just your body weight. If you can do this, you have enough strength to pedal a bicycle at a very high level. More than enough in fact. So you don't actually need any more. It doesn't do anything for you. What you need is more POWER, specifically over the duration of time that is relevant to my event. Power is the ability to generate force *over time.* If I race the 4km pursuit on the track, I don't care about how much force - peak force - I can generate. I care about how much force I can generate over a period of 4-5 minutes. And those two numbers are not related. In other words, even the most unfit person generally has more than enough strength to generate the force required to be a world class pursuiter. What they lack is the endurance to generate the power that is required to be a world class pursuiter. And strength and endurance do not correlate.

This is the importance of terminology and specificity. So, yeah, Geb and Deena and others say they do strength training. But that is basically so vague as to be meaningless. And that's assuming that they are even using it in the correct manner, which is a big assumption, even for athletes as successful as they are.

I want to focus on this paragraph; let's start with the 1=legged squat. Can i see hands who actually can do this? I think this is but a small part of the n, and not representative at all as to use as an example to underline your points. Someone who can 1-leg squat is already pretty damn strong and has acquired this strength someway. Maybe through strenght training,maybe not. But it is fact that training with weights is by far the best method to become stronger. The scalability is unparalleled.

I would say that there IS a correlation between maximal and submaximal strength. You can rename it as endurance , but that is a meaningless point. Increasing your maximum strength creates more functional reserve to perform in.
My point would be that I suspect (let's dive into the faltering ex.phys. science) that athletes that are the fastest generally have greater maximal strength (opposed to bodyweight) then their slower counterparts.

Also I see a lot of "bulging muscle" comments. Seriously people, strength is not directly related to size. Even the freaking article said so.

Finally +1 on the "not pencilneck comments". A stronger human is a more useful human.
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [SwBkRn44] [ In reply to ]
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Think about how many people lean forward while running and seem to lurch forward with every stride. The weakness of their erector spinae and (and to some extent rectus abdominus) muscles compromises their ability to run most efficiently.

No, they are just in bad running shape. If/when they run more, the muscles required for running will get stronger.

If you do situps more, the muscles required for doing situps will get stronger.

Really? So we don't use those "situp muscles" for anything but situps?

By this logic weight training is only useful for weight training - yet I know a lot of athletes in a lot of sports (including guys like Lance Armstrong) who get in the gym and lift as part of their annual training plan. Are you suggesting they're all wasting their time or that there is something magically different about the kind of swimming, biking and running that we do that makes us immune to the improvements those athletes see?


Ben Schorr
http://www.twitter.com/hitriguy
Then: Hawaii 70.3 (2009, 2010), Longhorn 70.3 (10/17/2010), IM Texas (5/21/11)
Now: IM Arizona (11/20/2011)
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [bschorr] [ In reply to ]
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yet I know a lot of athletes in a lot of sports (including guys like Lance Armstrong) who get in the gym and lift as part of their annual training plan.

You'll have to do better than that, because between 2009 and 2010, Johan Bruyneel went out of his way to say that if Lance was serious about his comeback he would need to stop lifting and lose that weight because "beach muscles" were not going to help him ride his bike.

I generally lift 2x per week. But I do it because I enjoy it, like seeing some friends at the gym, etc. I have no illusions that I would be better off using that time to swim or bike more if I was primarly concerned about my triathlon performance.



Portside Athletics Blog
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [SwBkRn44] [ In reply to ]
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Well, I'm not going to argue the point with Jordan, he's clearly done a lot more research on it than I have. And I'll concede that I come out of a background of power sports (football primarily) where strength training is an essential component of training. That's obviously a very different endeavor from endurance sport.

That said I find it difficult to believe that there isn't an endurance sport benefit to having a stronger and more stable core and engaging in a well-designed resistance training program.

Purely N=1 as a slow fat guy, I found that I was faster (and more comfortable) after spending some time focusing on core strength work and discovering I could finally ride long blocks on the bike without excruciating back pain. I also found that I could hold a better position in the water for a longer period - my swim form wasn't a total disaster after 1500 meters anymore. And I was able to run more efficiently for longer periods of time because I could more easily hold my upper torso in a better position.

I suppose you could argue that if I'd just spend more hours SBR that I'd have eventually achieved the same results, but I think by doing exercises that were specifically focused on the muscle groups I was trying to improve that I got the results in less time.

And as much as I wish I could get paid to just train (and recover) all day, the reality is that I (like most AGers) have to squeeze my training into a more limited number of hours in a week. So for me if I could achieve those results on ~2 hours of core work a week (as opposed to an extra 8 hours of SBR) it's not a difficult choice.

I'm sure the law of diminishing returns is at play as well - at some point I'll have strengthened my core about as much as it reasonably can be and additional core work (beyond maintenance) isn't going to help me go any faster. My swim form will be fine (well, not awful) for 2.4, I'll be able to ride a bike without excessive back pain for 112 and I'll be able to run vaguely upright for 26.2. At that point there's probably little additional speed to be gained from me doing core work.

My $.02. Keep the change.


Ben Schorr
http://www.twitter.com/hitriguy
Then: Hawaii 70.3 (2009, 2010), Longhorn 70.3 (10/17/2010), IM Texas (5/21/11)
Now: IM Arizona (11/20/2011)
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [JV99] [ In reply to ]
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My point would be that I suspect (let's dive into the faltering ex.phys. science) that athletes that are the fastest generally have greater maximal strength (opposed to bodyweight) then their slower counterparts.


Finally +1 on the "not pencilneck comments". A stronger human is a more useful human.

Your suspicion would be wrong for any activity more than a dead sprint. There's a reason that the 4000m pursuit WR is held by Chris Boardman (who couldn't sprint ("maximal strength") his way out of a paper bag, and not Chris Hoy (whose "maximal strength" on the bike is well more than double that of Boardman).

As for being a more useful human, here's a thought: do more useful stuff. It's that specificity thing. Do useful stuff and you'll be better at doing useful stuff.

(currently demolishing my bathroom)

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [JV99] [ In reply to ]
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so, i asked everyone at the office to do a one leg squat and everyone manage to do one pretty easily. as for most of your post, you simply show that you dont understand physiology principal........

Think about it this way, the problem with most people isnt that there car engine dosnt produce enough Torque....(strenght) it s that they run out of gas (aerobic system, endurance) to fuel the engin to produce the work during a endurance activity like riding a bike at 300 watts for 5h!!!! So, it doesnt matter if you get a bigger engin, V8 5.0 litter or 4 2.5l etc...your engin is already strong enough whatever size it is...... endurance sport is limited about ''fuel''. Not the strengh.......


so, better work on developping the aerobic system in a very specific way and give yourself a chance to fuel properly that engine of yours that is already strong enough to be world class.....


.

Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
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Last edited by: jonnyo: Aug 11, 10 5:44
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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My point would be that I suspect (let's dive into the faltering ex.phys. science) that athletes that are the fastest generally have greater maximal strength (opposed to bodyweight) then their slower counterparts.


Finally +1 on the "not pencilneck comments". A stronger human is a more useful human.


Your suspicion would be wrong for any activity more than a dead sprint. There's a reason that the 4000m pursuit WR is held by Chris Boardman (who couldn't sprint ("maximal strength") his way out of a paper bag, and not Chris Hoy (whose "maximal strength" on the bike is well more than double that of Boardman).

As for being a more useful human, here's a thought: do more useful stuff. It's that specificity thing. Do useful stuff and you'll be better at doing useful stuff.

(currently demolishing my bathroom)

Posting from the john, eh? Well, now that's a new euphemism for it. I've heard "dropping the kids off at the pool", "seeing a man about a horse", etc., but "demolishing my bathroom" - that's pretty hardcore.

What'd you eat??? ;-)


Back in the early aughts, I was a bit of a muscle-head, I lifted weights a LOT. I could leg-press fairly ridiculous amounts of weight for my size - and this did EXACTLY ZERO for me in terms of riding my bike faster (in fact, I was slower, since my power/weight ratio was hosed by being bigger), so I finally wised up, and stopped the madness.


float , hammer , and jog

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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
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so, i asked everyone at the office...


I know it's true, but I still have a hard time with this...


<If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough>
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [JV99] [ In reply to ]
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I would say that there IS a correlation between maximal and submaximal strength.

Unfortunately, you are wrong.

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The Triathlon Squad

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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Paulo Sousa] [ In reply to ]
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I would say that there IS a correlation between maximal and submaximal strength.


Unfortunately, you are wrong.

Aren't you now wrong?

I would say someones max strength and submaximal strength must be correlated as the entire submaximal strength is by nature determined by someones max strength.

I would think that someones max strength and maximum number of repetitions at submaximum level are not correlated or probably even negatively correlated.
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [JV99] [ In reply to ]
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I would say that there IS a correlation between maximal and submaximal strength. You can rename it as endurance , but that is a meaningless point.


What is the correlation?

I'll add my own anecdote FWIW:

Late 2006 I purchased a PowerTap and started training for my first (and only so far) Ironman. My winter buildup included weight lifting because Dave Scott said that strength training was important. Plenty of squats and lunges through the winter, both high and low reps. When power profiling, I got bests of 1450W for 5 seconds and 278W for 20 minutes.

One of the best things about buying a PM is that it drove me to do a lot of ex phys reading and get smarter about my training. Systematic use of weights went away, though I still lift occasionally if I'm on the road for an extended period (infrequently).

I am unquestionably weaker this year, both in the weight room and on the bike. This year's bests: 1220W for 5 seconds, 330W for 20 minutes. Threshold cadence is within a couple RPM of 2006.

So purely anecdote, but I'm weaker now with better endurance performance.
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [JV99] [ In reply to ]
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My point would be that I suspect (let's dive into the faltering ex.phys. science) that athletes that are the fastest generally have greater maximal strength (opposed to bodyweight) then their slower counterparts.



Yes, a lot of people think that because they think "muscles are doing the work," so strong muscles must be better. This simply isn't the case. One of my old training partners won worlds in the duathlon. He could hold 26 mph on th elong course. He was skinny and had relatively weak legs.

As JonnyO pointed out, endurance racing is about bringing in fuel and taking out exhaust. His car analogy is very good. You don't need more HP. You need a bigger fuel tank, more valves, a better injection system, and a blower to get more oxygen into your fuel.

As an example, well trained endurance athletes have significantly more capilaries than an untrained person. This means that more blood, hence more oxygen, is getting to your cells. Since the cell is working at ~15% of its potential, its a function of how much "fuel" gets to the cell.

Or to use another analogy, it woul dbe like having an office that was stocked full of people. Hiring twice as many people (doubling your strength) won't do anything for your productivity if you still only have a small fleet of trucks bringing goods too and from your office. The limiting factor is *always* the fleet of trucks, not the number of people in the office. Powerlifters have more workers. Endurance athletes have more trucks.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Murphy'sLaw] [ In reply to ]
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"but "demolishing my bathroom" - that's pretty hardcore."

I once had the unfortunate experience of walking in on the after-effects of such an act at the airport in Santiago, Chile, but have never gotten to that level myself.

Since Ken doesn't do core strengthening exercises, clearly the act of taking a daily dump develops the necessary muscles for becoming a top level shitter.
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [bschorr] [ In reply to ]
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<snip>... an endurance sport benefit to having a stronger and more stable core... <snip>

This is a common fallacy. You do NOT need a strong core. You do need a core with more stability (really, endurance). All it shows when you say a "strong" core is that you don't really understand what the meaning of the word "strong" is or that you don't understand the strength requirements for a given sport or both.

In other words, you can have a strong core that is unstable. And you can have a stable core that is not very strong (or, really, any stronger than it needs to be, which is, for most people, pretty minimal). Stability works *reasonably* well as a proxy for endurance, because by stability I presume you mean the ability to generate force over a long period of time, because that's really how stability should be measured - time-based. Of course, the stability requirements for swim/bike/run are fulfilled by swim/bike/run, provided you actually train for the event you wish to compete in. If you want to run a marathon, then do training that is appropriate for a marathon, and you're core will have the required stability. It'll also have the required strength, but that's irrelevant, because for most people, the strength was always adequate, it was just the endurance/stability that was not.

Of course, you may say that you are going to use core stability training to supplement your running, because you don't feel like you actually are able to train appropriately for a marathon. That's fine, but keep in mind that core stability training is non-specific to running and may - but may not - help you at all when you actually go to run. And of course, it's doing nothing for things like ankle stability, so you may indeed have a stable enough core, so then something else that you haven't trained appropriately to handle the load of running a marathon will give out. That's why the best way to prepare for a running race is by... RUNNING!

As for the "one legged squat" example people are having so much trouble with, I'll make it easier - go to the gym and push your body weight on the leg press with one leg. The "hard" part about a one legged squat is - for most people - the balance part of it. It's not the force generation requirements.

In the mean time, I'd ask that everyone go look up the actual definition of the word strength before they use it in a post. It's not that hard people...

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [bschorr] [ In reply to ]
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Soooo let me get this straight, you think doing core for two hours will help you more in an ironman than s/b/r 2 more hours in a week?

How does that even logically make sense to you? Especially when you aren't at the limit of your sbr a week. T
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [draketriathlon] [ In reply to ]
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Often when I'm working with new people we have to revamp their idea of what strength actually is.

For example, the people in Jonnyos office may all be able to do a one legged squat. Can they do it slowly? Can they do it without their knee rotating radically in and twisting their body in order to maintain balance? Can they do it to full range (whatever range may be appropriate for that person at that time?). I tell my clients all the time, strength is about control - the weight you are lifting is irrelevant. If you're doing something like a one legged press, then the weight on the sled might be your bodyweight, but the force on your joints based on the angle, speed and even range can be greatly more.


Part of the Slowtwitch Strength Training Association. Picking up something heavier than a bike makes me happy.
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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You do NOT need a strong core.

An interesting statement. However, if you tested and surveyed the top 100 athletes in various endurance sports, my guess is that they would have a reasonably strong core - and that few if any of then did any specific "core" workouts!



Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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you might be surprised how many elites actually do core work.

not that I think it is a necessity, I already said that somewhere here that i think all healthy persons have plenty of strength to keep their core stable.
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [big slow mover] [ In reply to ]
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you might be surprised how many elites actually do core work.

I don't think I would be surprised, since "core work" has a buzz to it right now, and elite athletes are always looking for that edge, so they give it a go, even when it may really do nothing for them!



Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [msuguy512] [ In reply to ]
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I haven't been able to come close to doing her either...
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [bschorr] [ In reply to ]
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That said I find it difficult to believe that there isn't an endurance sport benefit to having a stronger and more stable core and engaging in a well-designed resistance training program.

If you want a better designed resistance training program for the bike, instead of pedaling in 50x17 (or whatever gear you normally cruise in), pedal for a while in 50x14. Want more resistance? Up the cadence.

You want better designed resistance for swimming? Wrap your ankles in a tube. Add paddles for some sets.

You want better designed resistance for running? Increase cadence. Increase speed. Increase distance.

Functional muscle vs. gym muscle. For example, I had my 4th degree testing earlier this year. S/B/R training is not necessarily beneficial for martial arts training, especially considering some of the physical testing I had to pass before I could actually test. So, I dropped the SB part, ran to maintain some fitness and increased pushups, pullups and weight stations that benefited the motions I would actually be using in testing. Functional muscle for martial arts is different than functional muscle for SBR.

Re: Your core. Yeah, when you were a fat guy, you probably had relatively weak erector spinae, obliques and abs. Hence the back pain, your back wasn't up to holding an aero position. (Which probably says more about your position than anything else.) You did area specific exercises to correct an imbalance. Probably time well spent AT THAT TIME. Now that you have a functional level in those muscles, that time would be better served by doing more SBR.

Yeah, everyone points at Lance (Speaking of N=1) because of the ads of him doing kettlebells, etc. He is an anomoly for one thing, and two, did you see any evidence of the pecs, large arms, etc. when he was doing TdF this year? No. Because that is not functional muscle for biking, he wasn't working it.

As others have said, it's not about how much power you can apply to one press of the pedal, one pushoff in running, one pull in swimming, it's how much power you can apply over and over for an extended period of time.

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [ponyboy] [ In reply to ]
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For example, the people in Jonnyos office may all be able to do a one legged squat. Can they do it slowly? Can they do it without their knee rotating radically in and twisting their body in order to maintain balance? Can they do it to full range (whatever range may be appropriate for that person at that time?). I tell my clients all the time, strength is about control - the weight you are lifting is irrelevant. If you're doing something like a one legged press, then the weight on the sled might be your bodyweight, but the force on your joints based on the angle, speed and even range can be greatly more.

I think you're missing the point. If you can do a one legged squat you have more than enough maximal force to be able to bike fast. Maximal force is not anyones biking limiter in triathlon. You're knee twisting going fast, going slow, out of control or whatever doesn't mean anything. You are not limited by strength in triathlon. Therefore lifting weights to increase your strength doesn't help in an event that lasts more than about 4-5 minutes. Since triathlon is significantly longer than 5 minutes. Your maximal force does not matter.
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [ponyboy] [ In reply to ]
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Often when I'm working with new people we have to revamp their idea of what strength actually is.

For example, the people in Jonnyos office may all be able to do a one legged squat. Can they do it slowly? Can they do it without their knee rotating radically in and twisting their body in order to maintain balance? Can they do it to full range (whatever range may be appropriate for that person at that time?). I tell my clients all the time, strength is about control - the weight you are lifting is irrelevant. If you're doing something like a one legged press, then the weight on the sled might be your bodyweight, but the force on your joints based on the angle, speed and even range can be greatly more.

Actually, it sounds like you need to have your idea of what strength actually is revamped. If you are moving at a steady-state speed in both "slow" and "fast" cases then the strength required is exactly equal. Of course, if you are talking about acceleration and accelerating the weight less, then the strength required is actually lower overall, since the forces are lower. Whether their knee moves in or out, the strength required is also identical. It's simply equal to their body weight, unless, as I said above, you are accelerating upwards rather than moving at a constant velocity. Of course, the particular muscles engaged will change, and therefore which particular muscles' strengths are being challenged will change, but that's a very different discussion, albeit one that is actually worth having, unlike the majority of this thread, which is simply correction of misinformation.

Strength is actually NOT about control. Of course, that's assuming the phrase "control" actually means something concrete, which it does not. But it does sound good, which unfortunately seems to be what most personal trainers actually care about. What is important for all athletes is coordination and/or endurance, albeit over very different time frames, the combination of which is generally referred to as "stability," though that also doesn't really mean anything either.

And of course the force on the joint will change as a function of angle, but I fail to see how that's in any way relevant. If you can push it through the full range, that's all the matters for evaluating strength. Assuming you can push a sled with one leg through an equivalent ROM as is required for cycling, you have adequate strength. Of course, you may be pushing in a non-optimal manner if your knee is flailing all over the place, but you've got the strength, though maybe a particular muscle is lacking adequate strength to allow for maximum biomechanical efficiency (meaning moving the sled with a minimum of energy input, since the output will remain the same, assuming a given time frame), though I'd be intrigued to hear how you'd identify which muscle exactly was lacking strength given a particular compensation pattern.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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DD,
What was your guess for the over/under number of posts to this thread when you started it? Are we getting close?
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [draketriathlon] [ In reply to ]
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For example, the people in Jonnyos office may all be able to do a one legged squat. Can they do it slowly? Can they do it without their knee rotating radically in and twisting their body in order to maintain balance? Can they do it to full range (whatever range may be appropriate for that person at that time?). I tell my clients all the time, strength is about control - the weight you are lifting is irrelevant. If you're doing something like a one legged press, then the weight on the sled might be your bodyweight, but the force on your joints based on the angle, speed and even range can be greatly more.


I think you're missing the point. If you can do a one legged squat you have more than enough maximal force to be able to bike fast. Maximal force is not anyones biking limiter in triathlon. You're knee twisting going fast, going slow, out of control or whatever doesn't mean anything. You are not limited by strength in triathlon. Therefore lifting weights to increase your strength doesn't help in an event that lasts more than about 4-5 minutes. Since triathlon is significantly longer than 5 minutes. Your maximal force does not matter.

This was not my point - I said nothing about applying it to cycling. My statement was simply that most people can probably do a one legged squat - once - but can they do it with all of the other parameters I outlined - probably not. Of course it doesn't help biking faster.


Part of the Slowtwitch Strength Training Association. Picking up something heavier than a bike makes me happy.
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [draketriathlon] [ In reply to ]
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If you can do a one legged squat you have more than enough maximal force to be able to bike fast.

I think Ric Stern may have said that if you can stand up from a chair, you have enough strength to bike fast.

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Often when I'm working with new people we have to revamp their idea of what strength actually is.

For example, the people in Jonnyos office may all be able to do a one legged squat. Can they do it slowly? Can they do it without their knee rotating radically in and twisting their body in order to maintain balance? Can they do it to full range (whatever range may be appropriate for that person at that time?). I tell my clients all the time, strength is about control - the weight you are lifting is irrelevant. If you're doing something like a one legged press, then the weight on the sled might be your bodyweight, but the force on your joints based on the angle, speed and even range can be greatly more.


Actually, it sounds like you need to have your idea of what strength actually is revamped. If you are moving at a steady-state speed in both "slow" and "fast" cases then the strength required is exactly equal. Of course, if you are talking about acceleration and accelerating the weight less, then the strength required is actually lower overall, since the forces are lower. Whether their knee moves in or out, the strength required is also identical. It's simply equal to their body weight, unless, as I said above, you are accelerating upwards rather than moving at a constant velocity. Of course, the particular muscles engaged will change, and therefore which particular muscles' strengths are being challenged will change, but that's a very different discussion, albeit one that is actually worth having, unlike the majority of this thread, which is simply correction of misinformation.

Strength is actually NOT about control. Of course, that's assuming the phrase "control" actually means something concrete, which it does not. But it does sound good, which unfortunately seems to be what most personal trainers actually care about. What is important for all athletes is coordination and/or endurance, albeit over very different time frames, the combination of which is generally referred to as "stability," though that also doesn't really mean anything either.

And of course the force on the joint will change as a function of angle, but I fail to see how that's in any way relevant. If you can push it through the full range, that's all the matters for evaluating strength. Assuming you can push a sled with one leg through an equivalent ROM as is required for cycling, you have adequate strength. Of course, you may be pushing in a non-optimal manner if your knee is flailing all over the place, but you've got the strength, though maybe a particular muscle is lacking adequate strength to allow for maximum biomechanical efficiency (meaning moving the sled with a minimum of energy input, since the output will remain the same, assuming a given time frame), though I'd be intrigued to hear how you'd identify which muscle exactly was lacking strength given a particular compensation pattern.

In your first paragraph you actually reinforced my point, however I didn't choose the right terms (my fault). If you lift something over say a 2 second lift/lower ratio, and then try to lift it again over say a 3/1 lift/lower ratio then the force on the joint changes. Acceleration, whether down or up is a factor in the amount of power your joint requires in order to move, and will also change the inertia and torque on the joint if you lower it at a faster rate and have to stop it. Also, if you change it to a 3/3 lift/lower ratio than the amount of overall force changes substantially.

My point about angle was simply this: if you sit on a seated leg press where the angle of movement is straight forward (ie straight sled press) and load on 150 pounds, and then get on a leg press where the sled is angled differently 30 degrees and forces your hips and back to rotate at a different angle plus include gravity, then the weight changes and the amount of force required changes as well. That's of course just an example, but you can't deny that for example, an incline press and a flat bench press, given the same amount of weight don't require different levels of work from different muscles?

This is off topic, BTW - I really don't care about the whole whether strength training helps your S/B/R debate, so if you want to start another thread about mechanics I'm all for it.


Part of the Slowtwitch Strength Training Association. Picking up something heavier than a bike makes me happy.
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [ponyboy] [ In reply to ]
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I agree with everything you wrote above (so don't edit it now, since I'm not quoting it). (EDIT: that's not really true, per below) But as you said, you didn't choose the right terms, which is really what I objected to. In other words, this whole debate is rife with people who are non-specific and/or inaccurate in their statements. It's hard enough to have a discussion on a particular topic, and it becomes impossible if people can say, "well, that's not what I meant." Yeah, but it IS what you said.

Yes, in your example, of course the force changes when the weight changes. But if you normalize for changes in weight, obviously the forces are the same. I.e. 150lbs total weight pushing parrallel to the ground (cable actuation) is going to require identical strength - force - to 150lbs pushing perpendicular to the ground. Of course, what muscles are required to generate that force may - will - be different. But if the weight is the same in total, the force will be the same. Though I am not really directing that at you, since I think you know that. I'm just saying that in general in case people mis-read what you wrote.

EDIT: one small correction - the timing of your lift cycle will NOT change the forces UNLESS - and ONLY unless - you change the acceleration. In other words lifting at a constant 1m/s requires the exact same force as lifting at a constant 10m/s. The only difference could be the peak force required to get the weight up to 10m/s, but that's not definitive OR the peak force required to stop the weight, but again, that's not definitive. It would depend on how long you took to slow the weight down.

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If you lift something over say a 2 second lift/lower ratio, and then try to lift it again over say a 3/1 lift/lower ratio then the force on the joint changes. Acceleration, whether down or up is a factor in the amount of power your joint requires in order to move, and will also change the inertia and torque on the joint if you lower it at a faster rate and have to stop it. Also, if you change it to a 3/3 lift/lower ratio than the amount of overall force changes substantially.

That's actually NOT true. 3/1 or 3/3 *can* require the exact same amount of force, even at different speeds, as long as the speeds in both case is constant. Acceleration is not *a* factor - is THE factor in the amount of force - STRENGTH - required to move. What does change as a function of speed is POWER. Your joint doesn't require power to move. It requires power to move a given SPEED. Simple movement is just a function of strength. Acceleration also does NOT change inertia. Inertia is a function of weight and speed.

Hence the importance of proper terminology...

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
Last edited by: Rappstar: Aug 11, 10 10:21
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [draketriathlon] [ In reply to ]
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Soooo let me get this straight, you think doing core for two hours will help you more in an ironman than s/b/r 2 more hours in a week?

How does that even logically make sense to you? Especially when you aren't at the limit of your sbr a week. T

I think it may be that core work (and resistance training for that matter) may be most valuable for people on either end of the ability spectrum.

For elites, as Jordan has suggested, who have reached (or at least approached) the upper limit of their SBR training load as a way to add more load without adding miles they're not able to do and...

For beginners who, by virtue of their lack of conditioning, have also managed to hit the current upper limit of their SBR training load. For those people being able to build endurance and (sorry Jordan) strength in useful muscles without pushing themselves to injury by adding miles to a body that isn't able to do those miles at this time is beneficial.

Running, in particular, is a sport that has a pretty finite upper limit (especially for beginners) in terms of weekly mileage. Read Hal Higdon's book on marathon for a useful discussion of not only the minimum number of miles an aspiring marathoner should run in a week but the MAXIMUM number of miles they should run in a week. Pushing beyond that limit puts you at greater risk for injury which doesn't advance your Ironman goals.

Yes, there is a broad swath of people in the middle who are able to SBR quite a bit more than they already are. They don't have any current injuries and perhaps their primary limiters are aerobic rather than muscular.

I coach a lot of beginning marathoners and many of those people come into the training unable to run for more than a couple of miles without hobbling along with their hands on their hips. It takes them a little time for their bodies to acclimate to the rigors of 15+ training miles a week and throwing them straight into a 40-mile week (which they will do about 14-15 weeks into the program) is just going to land them on the DL. For those folks, at their current ability level, "Run more" is a stupid answer. That's why we build their weekly mileage up gradually, rather than just sending them on a death march the first day. (even though the first day often FEELS like a death march to them)

Just because they can't safely run more that day or that week doesn't mean they can't train more, however. That's why we have them cross train. And some of that cross training involves various movement exercises, and resistance training, such as core work. For people whose physical ability is at that level I think doing the core work, in a zero impact exercise with low risk of injury, is a much better answer than telling them to lace up, and go run another two miles which is just going to leave them injured.

Now I realize that everybody on ST can bang out 300 situps while they update their training logs and oil the chain on their bike, but I think if you look back in the pack you'll find some AGers who aren't at that point yet.

The upper limit of how much SBR you can safely do is a moving target for most people. Jordan makes a good point when he suggests that perhaps if you've hit that upper limit then what you should be doing is resting and recovering rather than doing situps, but I believe there is a balance to be struck where, for many athletes, there is benefit in doing that core work or resistance training in addition to the SBR they did, without significantly compromising their very valuable recovery time.


Ben Schorr
http://www.twitter.com/hitriguy
Then: Hawaii 70.3 (2009, 2010), Longhorn 70.3 (10/17/2010), IM Texas (5/21/11)
Now: IM Arizona (11/20/2011)
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [bschorr] [ In reply to ]
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fatigue is fatigue

so yes, you can better train a bit harder in a more specific way then core work and rest. There is no upper limit to training, only maximum fatigue you can deal with. And you best be fatigued from something very usefull for the sport you chose.
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [bschorr] [ In reply to ]
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I did not say that weight training was a way to add more load. I said that if you hit your absolute limit of SBR, you may need to start examining WHY that is your limit. In that case, you may need to do some alternative work to remove what it is that is currently limiting you. That MAY be achievable through focused resistance training. However, it also may NOT be.

For many - most - people, the limit will simply be aerobic fitness, even for elites. In that, you just have to be patient and allow yourself to get fitter. But, for some people, a particular muscle imbalance or injury may start to be a limiter. In that case, you may need to look outside of aerobic fitness to raise your limits. But look at Geb's training. Even though Original PV was focused on the fact that he did "strength training," he left out the fact that he was riding the bike in the gym. So for Geb, his limiter was likely impact, so what did he do? More aerobic work in a non-impact environment. At some point, no matter what he does, he just can't increase the amount of running he can do. So, in his case, note that he is looking for ways to increase his overall aerobic load, because aerobic conditioning is of primary importance.

You are correct in that beginners will hit the upper limit of their mileage pretty quickly. But that doesn't mean they need to weight train. They don't need any more load. That's the complete fallacy with ideas like your "useful" musles. WTF does that mean? What is a "useful" muscle?

It may be possible that people who are at the very beginning may benefit from some general resistance training work, just because running at all may in fact be too much for them. Hal Higdon, for example, gives a guide, but even that may be too much for someone. In that case, sure, I can see that a general conditioning routine that is not specific to running can help, because the person is so totally unfit that ANY conditioning work is going to help them develop the endurance they need to even get out the door and run a single lap of the track. In that case, great do SOMETHING. But it doesn't really matter what. Core conditioning could be replaced by riding a bike, water aerobics, a step class, pilates. Anything. They just need to actually move.

Nobody is telling your newbies to "run more NOW." That is you again not comprehending the crux of the argument. The argument is exactly what you've presented - that the only way for them to get faster running is to run those 40mile weeks. It's NOT saying they should start out running 40mile weeks. It's pointing out exactly what you are saying - they need to get to running 40mile weeks in order to get faster. They can't just continue along at 15 mile weeks ad infinitum and hope that their gym work makes them faster. That's exactly what everyone has been saying all along. You just made the exact point that you were objecting to.

I get that you "believe" there is a benefit to core conditioning work. Unfortunately, that benefit has never actually been demonstrated in any statistically significant form. But if you want to do it, great. But stop trying to create an argument for it through misinformation and misinterpretation.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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If you lift something over say a 2 second lift/lower ratio, and then try to lift it again over say a 3/1 lift/lower ratio then the force on the joint changes. Acceleration, whether down or up is a factor in the amount of power your joint requires in order to move, and will also change the inertia and torque on the joint if you lower it at a faster rate and have to stop it. Also, if you change it to a 3/3 lift/lower ratio than the amount of overall force changes substantially.


That's actually NOT true. 3/1 or 3/3 *can* require the exact same amount of force, even at different speeds, as long as the speeds in both case is constant. Acceleration is not *a* factor - is THE factor in the amount of force - STRENGTH - required to move. What does change as a function of speed is POWER. Your joint doesn't require power to move. It requires power to move a given SPEED. Simple movement is just a function of strength. Acceleration also does NOT change inertia. Inertia is a function of weight and speed.

Hence the importance of proper terminology...

Granted. As for the statement above, please add the word net in front of force. Although overall force should mean the same thing ;).


Part of the Slowtwitch Strength Training Association. Picking up something heavier than a bike makes me happy.
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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It seems like the overwhelming opinion of the "not advocating weight/strength training crowd" is that the most *efficient* way to get faster is through S/B/R more, at aerobic levels.

I would argue that most people here include anaerobic work in their training. The arguments that sprinting faster, or maximizing short effort performance won't help your endurance is pretty short sighted. There is a ton of scientific peer-reviewed research pointing toward the fact that building anaerobic pathways IN COMBINATION with aerobic pathways makes you faster. Right? It makes sense if your mile time was a 5:30 and you improve it to 5:00, that would make it easier to run a 10k at a faster pace overall, since its a lower percentage of your max effort. All the advocates for training with power should buy into this right? You need to pace yourself in relation to your threshold, but how do you get faster? Increase your threshold. Training both pathways does this. You can get faster doing only longer slower efforts, or probably by only sprinting (though the longer the race the less practical this becomes.) But it makes sense to do a combination of both.

Why is it so hard to make the leap to apply the same principles to weight training? If you could maintain the same body weight, but increase power to weight ratio, wouldnt that make sense as a supplement to training S/B/R?

For full disclosure, I am an advocate of heavy, olympic style lifting, like cleans, snatches, deadlift, and squat. I also do a ton of body weight stuff. I can crank out full range of motion one legged squats all day. These movements require strenth, agility, power, and yes, even muscular endurance when done in combination. Im not some big meathead dude, I have the standard triathlete body comp, 5'11, 155. But I'm damn strong for my weight, and making huge gains. I haven't been in the sport long enough to reach my potential, so my n=1 numbers arent a great example. But I think the performances I've put up are pretty good for someone only training for one season. Every time I swim bike and run, I get faster. So I can appreciate those who argue that I should be doing that exclusively, since I haven't reached my max potential yet. However, I have seen dramatic improvement combining sbr with lifting heavy and short, super intense strength/conditioning workouts. Overall, I'm still gaining fitness.

I am not trying to say that my way is the only way. I really dont like the excuse that well if you cant do a, then b is a substitute. I weight train because I think it makes me faster. I used to train for running only (5k, 10k, and 1/2 mary). I would do predominantly tempo and long hard efforts. When I implemented strength training and more importantly got out on the track for some serious speedwork, I dropped time at a much faster pace than ever before.

Just sayin.
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [smugfit] [ In reply to ]
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Why is it so hard to make the leap to apply the same principles to weight training?

One word: Specificity.

-

The Triathlon Squad

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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
I did not say that weight training was a way to add more load. I said that if you hit your absolute limit of SBR, you may need to start examining WHY that is your limit. In that case, you may need to do some alternative work to remove what it is that is currently limiting you. That MAY be achievable through focused resistance training. However, it also may NOT be.

Fair enough, I stand very slightly corrected.

In Reply To:
For many - most - people, the limit will simply be aerobic fitness, even for elites. In that, you just have to be patient and allow yourself to get fitter. But, for some people, a particular muscle imbalance or injury may start to be a limiter. In that case, you may need to look outside of aerobic fitness to raise your limits. But look at Geb's training.

I'm going to be so bold as to suggest that many (even most perhaps) AGers who aren't at the pointy end of the field DO have a muscular imbalance (and perhaps even a mild injury) that is limiting them to some extent.

The old saying "nobody's perfect" surely applies to triathletes as well. A relative few in the field are perfectly tuned and balanced machines.

In Reply To:
Even though Original PV was focused on the fact that he did "strength training," he left out the fact that he was riding the bike in the gym. So for Geb, his limiter was likely impact, so what did he do? More aerobic work in a non-impact environment. At some point, no matter what he does, he just can't increase the amount of running he can do. So, in his case, note that he is looking for ways to increase his overall aerobic load, because aerobic conditioning is of primary importance.

I agree that aerobic conditioning is of primary importance. I'm simply saying it's not the ONLY factor.

When Crowie outsprinted Lieto at the end of Boise 70.3 last year was it aerobic conditioning that was Lieto's limiting factor in those last 200 meters?

In Reply To:
You are correct in that beginners will hit the upper limit of their mileage pretty quickly. But that doesn't mean they need to weight train.

I didn't say they needed to "weight train".

In Reply To:
They don't need any more load. That's the complete fallacy with ideas like your "useful" musles. WTF does that mean? What is a "useful" muscle?

Useful: (adj) Serviceable for an end or a purpose. Muscle you're more than familiar with the definition of.

When I move a specific set of bio-mechanical things happen to make that movement possible. Among those things is the contraction (or extension) of specific muscles. It is possible, though not always ideal, to exercise the muscles used in a particular motion without actually performing the motion in context.

In Reply To:
Nobody is telling your newbies to "run more NOW." That is you again not comprehending the crux of the argument. The argument is exactly what you've presented - that the only way for them to get faster running is to run those 40mile weeks.

I'm suggesting that the newbies will get to those 40 mile week (which ARE necessary) faster and more capably if they supplement their 15 mile weeks with resistance training designed to condition (and yes, even strengthen) the muscles that are important in running and maintaining good running form. I'm not suggesting they need to go to the gym and do hours of curls or blast out a 1-rep max on the bench. I'm saying that it benefits them to exercise those muscles useful to their particular sport (running in this example) in a manner that is low impact and puts them at less risk of injury than doing more miles than they are currently ready for. You mentioned pilates as a "movement" that might help the newbies. Yeah, pilates is all about the core. I think pilates can definitely help many (most?) AG athletes to improve.

In Reply To:
It's NOT saying they should start out running 40mile weeks. It's pointing out exactly what you are saying - they need to get to running 40mile weeks in order to get faster. They can't just continue along at 15 mile weeks ad infinitum and hope that their gym work makes them faster.

Now you're the one who isn't comprehending the crux of the argument. :-) Maybe there are people who are saying that they should stay at 15 miles a week and get faster in the gym, but I'm not (and have never been) one of them.

In Reply To:
I get that you "believe" there is a benefit to core conditioning work. Unfortunately, that benefit has never actually been demonstrated in any statistically significant form. But if you want to do it, great. But stop trying to create an argument for it through misinformation and misinterpretation.

Sorry, I don't have access to a lab (or the time for that matter) to perform the peer-reviewed research you might like to see on the matter. All I can go by is my understanding of how the human body works and the examples of successful endurance athletes all around me (an admittedly N=72 example) most of whom do some kind of resistance/movement "strength" training and consider it an important part of their training routine. They don't do it instead of their 90/9 BRICs, they do it in addition to.

You can, and probably will if experience holds, argue that they succeed in spite of their supplemental "strength" training rather than because of it. I happen to think, and so do they, that the additional training they're doing, is benefiting them on race day.

Certainly it could be argued that they should have done a 90/10 BRIC instead but for various reasons they felt that 90/9 was the appropriate training distance for their ability on that day and they choose to supplement it with cross-training (specifically various kinds of movement, stretching, balance and resistance exercises; such as pilates or yoga)


Ben Schorr
http://www.twitter.com/hitriguy
Then: Hawaii 70.3 (2009, 2010), Longhorn 70.3 (10/17/2010), IM Texas (5/21/11)
Now: IM Arizona (11/20/2011)
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [smugfit] [ In reply to ]
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I would argue that most people here include anaerobic work in their training. The arguments that sprinting faster, or maximizing short effort performance won't help your endurance is pretty short sighted.

I am not saying it's not going to help, but as Jordan and others have already pointed out, for most people here and in the sport, you can go a very long way, say close to 95 - 98% of what you could ever get to in an endurance sport, on aerobic endurance training. It's not that complicated. The events are all 99%+ aerobic. As Paulo just stated - it's mostly if all about specificity!

Of course, many coaches want to make it complicated and involved, because they have to sell you something. They need to give their clients something to hold on to. Telling them to go S/B/R for a few years and then comeback and we'll start to talk about more detailed training, is a tough sell! :-)



Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [smugfit] [ In reply to ]
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The problem with your analogy of going from 5:30 to 5 min mile is that the example you are using is already an "aerobic example". See Klehner's example of Chris Boardman in the 4000m pursuit. If you're good at the 4000m pursuit, you're gonna be good at the hour record and if your mile time is good, making it better will improve your 10K. When you bring weights into the equation it's more like saying. "My mile time is 5:30 minutes and my 100m time is 12 seconds". I've been working on my 100m for 3 years and got it down to 11 flat. Guess what, your mile time just went from 5:30 to 5:29 (or so).

That's why doing weights in short bursts that last 30 seconds at best won't really do much for endurance performance, just like all out sprinting likely won't do much , other than at the end of an ITU world cup sprint finish where you might need to wind it up for the final 200m to get a gold vs silver medal. That's what the anti weight training crowd has been arguing and I have no qualms with that.

There are many good reasons to do weights/resistance training wrt to personal motivation, easy access to fitness (body weight routines....heck I've done them for an hour straight at the back of a 14 hour flight), being able to deal with day to day life's responsibilities without getting hurt (I am sure there are many here who have thrown their backs out taking a wiggling 30 lbs 18 month old kid out of a car seat, or helping a friend move furniture, or moving your bike case around the airport etc etc). Personally that's why I do weights. They make me feel great, and I like that I have functional strength for stuff outside SBR. Since I am not a pro, getting through other aspects of life without getting hurt and arriving at the start line of triathlon ready to rip is a good thing. I'll stick to this formula as I've gotten through 26 seasons of triathlon reasonably well and on the balance, things are working well for a guy in 45-49.
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [smugfit] [ In reply to ]
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When I implemented strength training and more importantly got out on the track for some serious speedwork, I dropped time at a much faster pace than ever before.

Good to see you are controlling all variables. Wouldn't want to make two drastic changes in the way that you trained so that you would have no way of actually evaluating whether it was one or both things that made you faster. But it's okay; I'll give you a hint - keep going to the track. It wasn't "more" importantly, it was the ONLY thing of importance, at least among the two changes you mentioned. The slow - but steady - gains in aerobic fitness from general training should never be overlooked.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [bschorr] [ In reply to ]
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When Crowie outsprinted Lieto at the end of Boise 70.3 last year was it aerobic conditioning that was Lieto's limiting factor in those last 200 meters?

One view: Some people have it at the end and some don't. Lance Armstrong can't out-sprint Mark Cavendish either - no matter what. The great Paul Tergat, was almost always out-sprinted at the end by Haile G!

Another: Yes, you could say that Leito was aerobically deficient at the end because he burned all his aerobic matches earlier on and Crowie did not, so when it came time to sprint, Craig had more legs left.





Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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I think there's another aspect to it as well. Weight training for endurance athletes is kind of like leg shaving. People do it for a certain look, then hunt around for other performance-based justifications after the fact.
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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When I implemented strength training and more importantly got out on the track for some serious speedwork, I dropped time at a much faster pace than ever before.


Good to see you are controlling all variables. Wouldn't want to make two drastic changes in the way that you trained so that you would have no way of actually evaluating whether it was one or both things that made you faster. But it's okay; I'll give you a hint - keep going to the track. It wasn't "more" importantly, it was the ONLY thing of importance, at least among the two changes you mentioned. The slow - but steady - gains in aerobic fitness from general training should never be overlooked.


Sure, but unless you have the time/funding/ability to do controlled studies, you can't control for all variables. I think we probably agree on that. Even if I was to only change the track work, my gains could have been based on better sleep, diet, lower stress over that period, climate, mental attitude allowing me to work harder, etc. I wasn't suggesting it was a scientific study with a control group, Im sure I wouldve gotten faster no matter what I did, again I'm still making gains basically regardless of what I do.

I think most people waste their time in the gym, so I'm not an advocate for every triathlete to go to 24 hour fitness and get on a nautilus machine. But its worked for me. I beat a lot of people who have done this for a long time, but there are plenty of people who are faster who have never touched a weight.
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [smugfit] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
I would argue that most people here include anaerobic work in their training. The arguments that sprinting faster, or maximizing short effort performance won't help your endurance is pretty short sighted. There is a ton of scientific peer-reviewed research pointing toward the fact that building anaerobic pathways IN COMBINATION with aerobic pathways makes you faster. Right? It makes sense if your mile time was a 5:30 and you improve it to 5:00, that would make it easier to run a 10k at a faster pace overall, since its a lower percentage of your max effort. All the advocates for training with power should buy into this right? You need to pace yourself in relation to your threshold, but how do you get faster? Increase your threshold. Training both pathways does this. You can get faster doing only longer slower efforts, or probably by only sprinting (though the longer the race the less practical this becomes.) But it makes sense to do a combination of both.

Sense to who? How does increasing efficiency of a pathway that lasts ~ 5-10 seconds at most benefit aerobic pathways? Unless you're always in a dead heat for podium in your AG, increased anaerobic efficiency does basically nothing for aerobic efficiency increases.

In Reply To:
Why is it so hard to make the leap to apply the same principles to weight training? If you could maintain the same body weight, but increase power to weight ratio, wouldnt that make sense as a supplement to training S/B/R?

For full disclosure, I am an advocate of heavy, olympic style lifting, like cleans, snatches, deadlift, and squat. I also do a ton of body weight stuff. I can crank out full range of motion one legged squats all day. These movements require strenth, agility, power, and yes, even muscular endurance when done in combination. Im not some big meathead dude, I have the standard triathlete body comp, 5'11, 155. But I'm damn strong for my weight, and making huge gains. I haven't been in the sport long enough to reach my potential, so my n=1 numbers arent a great example. But I think the performances I've put up are pretty good for someone only training for one season. Every time I swim bike and run, I get faster. So I can appreciate those who argue that I should be doing that exclusively, since I haven't reached my max potential yet. However, I have seen dramatic improvement combining sbr with lifting heavy and short, super intense strength/conditioning workouts. Overall, I'm still gaining fitness.

See Paulo's response for your first sentence. As for the rest, the highlighted portions are the only thing that are relevant. And yes, your overall fitness is increasing, but the power lifting isn't doing anything for your SBR performance. It's increasing your fitness for powerlifting.

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [smugfit] [ In reply to ]
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Hello smugfit and All,

In support of your arguments for resistance training .............

==========================

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11533574

CONCLUSIONS: We conclude that rotator muscle strength imbalance may play an important role in shoulder injuries in high-level volleyball players.

==========================

The question posed in the main is ............... does doing ONLY SBR provide the maxiumum 'consistent' race performance?

And corallary question might be ............ does doing ONLY SBR create muscle imbalances that lead to injury?

It might be worthwhile to consider injury prevention from muscle imbalance as a positive indicator for some specific dry land resistance training in addition to SBR before the injury occurs.

An interesting question for the ST poll would be "have you been injured this year?" and "what injury?" and "off training for how long?" especially considering the many .... "hello doctor - can you help me with ___________ (fill in the blank)?" posts on ST.

It might come down to time spent preventing injury increases your time for a race - but you race more consistently, and of course varies with individuals.

Sort of like using gatorskins vs veloflex tires to race in -- is the loss of speed worth the increased odds of not flatting.

Cheers,

Neal

Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [bschorr] [ In reply to ]
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Fair enough, I stand very slightly corrected.

Actually, it's a significant correction. The fact that you think it's a slight correction is the problem.

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AGers who aren't at the pointy end of the field DO have a muscular imbalance (and perhaps even a mild injury) that is limiting them to some extent.

Great, so where in your plan is the evaluation of said imbalance and the insurance that your plan will actually fix it instead of making it worse? In other words, how do you assess that imbalance? How do you make sure you aren't f'ing them up even more. Many - most, if not all - core conditioning programs can easily exacerbate imbalances. Haphazard "core conditioning" is likely to make that imbalance even worse, NOT correct it. That's the problem. Core conditioning doesn't inherently correct anything, despite people's great faith that it does. Appropriate exercises can correct things, but I must have missed where you actually gave an in depth explanation of how you make sure the exercises are appropriate.

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When Crowie outsprinted Lieto at the end of Boise 70.3 last year was it aerobic conditioning that was Lieto's limiting factor in those last 200 meters?

Yes, because it was the 20.9 KILOmeters that came beforehand that made the difference.

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It is possible, though not always ideal, to exercise the muscles used in a particular motion without actually performing the motion in context.

It's not only "not always" ideal, it's NEVER ideal.

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I'm suggesting that the newbies will get to those 40 mile week (which ARE necessary) faster and more capably if they supplement their 15 mile weeks with resistance training designed to condition (and yes, even strengthen) the muscles that are important in running and maintaining good running form.

I know that you think that. The problem is that you only think it, you don't actually know it, because there isn't evidence to support it.

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I'm saying that it benefits them to exercise those muscles useful to their particular sport (running in this example) in a manner that is low impact and puts them at less risk of injury than doing more miles than they are currently ready for. You mentioned pilates as a "movement" that might help the newbies. Yeah, pilates is all about the core. I think pilates can definitely help many (most?) AG athletes to improve.

Pilates is actually not about core. Stupid Pilates instructors will tell you about core, but the original book by Joe Pilates is called "Contrology," which tells you all you need to know. A core with appropriate endurance is important to pilates, but only someone that doesn't actually understand what pilates actually is would tell you it's all about core.

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All I can go by is my understanding of how the human body works<snip>

Unfortunately, that understanding seems to be quite poor. You don't need a lab. You just need access to the work from people who do have labs. You have a computer, clearly.

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I happen to think

Great. We've been over this a lot. You think. "In god we trust. All others bring data." Split your n=72 into two groups, one of which does zero core conditioning, and then we might have something worth discussing. Your n=72 is really n=1, because you have no control group. You have as much of a "lab" as you need. What lack is methodology.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [smugfit] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
It seems like the overwhelming opinion of the "not advocating weight/strength training crowd" is that the most *efficient* way to get faster is through S/B/R more, at aerobic levels.

I would argue that most people here include anaerobic work in their training. The arguments that sprinting faster, or maximizing short effort performance won't help your endurance is pretty short sighted. There is a ton of scientific peer-reviewed research pointing toward the fact that building anaerobic pathways IN COMBINATION with aerobic pathways makes you faster. Right? It makes sense if your mile time was a 5:30 and you improve it to 5:00, that would make it easier to run a 10k at a faster pace overall, since its a lower percentage of your max effort. All the advocates for training with power should buy into this right?

Your argument is incorrect. Your example of the mile is also not applicable, as a mile run is predominantly aerobic, not anaerobic. Would you argue that maximizing your 200m dash time would make it easier to run a 10km at a faster pace? I'm hoping you wouldn't.

As I've repeated ad nauseum, Chris Boardman was unsurpassed in the 4000m pursuit, yet his maximum short effort performance ("sprinting") was pretty lame by pro cyclist standards. His aerobic capacity was excellent, though, and his FTP was an astounding percentage of his max power.

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [nealhe] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry Neal, the subject line of the study gives away the relevance: "We conclude that rotator muscle strength imbalance."

It's not support for resistance training in general. It's support for very specific resistance training to correct a very specifically identified muscular imbalance. That's absolutely NOT what is being advocated by people like smugfit are advocating.

What you have provided is support for EXACTLY what I have been advocating all along - when you reach a limit in performance, you need to identify - VERY SPECIFICALLY - what that limit is. It may be something you can correct with resistance training - if it's a rotator cuff imbalance (note, no mention of core anywhere) - then yes, resistance exercises for the rotator cuff will likely help.

Of course, keep in mind that volleyball has almost nothing to do with triathlon. The peak force requirements for even a recretaional volleyball player's rotator cuff dwarf that of a high level swimmer.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Hi, my name is Sue. I'm an IM podium finisher and I lift weights / do core work in the off season.

I find they work wonders for me in terms of cycling strength for my pencil neck geek legs and keeping my disc from blowing out - yet again. As we age, I am finding that SBR is not enough. My best seasons / races have come off a winter of weights and skate skiing. My body type does not naturally build muscle no matter what I do. In fact, the more I lift, the skinnier I get.

I had 2 girlfriends hit the weights with me last winter and they say they are faster and stronger with better endurance on the bike than the previous season. Neither had ever lifted before. I do not advocate heavy body building type lifting, nor lifting during the race season.

But you know, IT WORKS FOR ME AND I'M GONNA KEEP DOING IT REGARDLESS OF WHAT ANYONE SAYS. That said, our little burg has many Hawaii qualifiers, and I don't know a single one who does NOT lift weights in the off season.
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Devlin] [ In reply to ]
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Unless you're always in a dead heat for podium in your AG

John,

As per usual on here it's always the exceptional situation and example that is first pointed out.


People go on and on like every AG podium place is sorted out by 10ths of seconds!

In 20+ years of triathlon racing I think that I had exactly 3 occurrences in countless races where it came down to the final 20 meters of the race and, a true sprint finish for a win or top spot.








Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [smugfit] [ In reply to ]
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When I implemented strength training and more importantly got out on the track for some serious speedwork, I dropped time at a much faster pace than ever before.


Good to see you are controlling all variables. Wouldn't want to make two drastic changes in the way that you trained so that you would have no way of actually evaluating whether it was one or both things that made you faster. But it's okay; I'll give you a hint - keep going to the track. It wasn't "more" importantly, it was the ONLY thing of importance, at least among the two changes you mentioned. The slow - but steady - gains in aerobic fitness from general training should never be overlooked.


Sure, but unless you have the time/funding/ability to do controlled studies, you can't control for all variables. I think we probably agree on that. Even if I was to only change the track work, my gains could have been based on better sleep, diet, lower stress over that period, climate, mental attitude allowing me to work harder, etc. I wasn't suggesting it was a scientific study with a control group, Im sure I wouldve gotten faster no matter what I did, again I'm still making gains basically regardless of what I do.

Riiiiiiiight over you head..... He never said anything about a scientific study. You added weights and track work and got faster.

That doesn't mean weights equal faster. If you would have taken out the weights and just done track work you would have got as fast if not faster by avoiding the time lifting weights. His point is not that you need to do a study but the fact that if you change two things at once you can't logically say x helped when it could be y and in this case y helped and x did nothing.

For instance let's say I had a stock p4 with training wheels and avged 25mph on 250 watts, which I thought was to slow. so i sold it and bought a p3 with race wheels and then avg 25.5 mph on 250 watts with the same position. I can conclude a) the p3 and the race wheels helped increase my speed, b) the p3 is faster than the p4 or C) the race wheels make up for the difference in speed from the p4. Obviously a and b are wrong which leaves c as the logical explaination. In other words your speed work makes up for the waste of time lifting causing you to go faster. However if you would have stuck with 2-3 more hours a week training(p4) instead of lifting (the p3) you would would have have ended up with a p4 with race wheels instead of your current p3 with race wheels.
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [sto] [ In reply to ]
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Sue,

Of the 9 folks locally who already qual'd for Kona (some accepted, some passed) , the majority do resistance training, some year round. Most of them however are 40+ and are carrying a lifetime worth of injuries and imbalances that constantly have to be managed. Sample size however is small, and as many will point out, there is no proof that this is making them faster. I do think that it helps them get to the start line of daily SBR training "more intact" than many of their competitors on a more consistent basis. My personal observation is that this allows these masters athletes to do more SBR. This may very well be the case of your Boise group. It's also why I started roller skiing again in the middle of August, because my race season is going from Jan to Nov this year and I need to balance off my body doing some different stuff to withstand another IM build that will start shortly. We also need to do resistance training for the massive 30 second sprint at the start of every ski race to get in the "group" (or your race may be over)....but that is a different sport.

Steve, you're correct about those sprint finishes.....in 26 years, I have had three. The ITU guys run 9.8K pretty darn fast but they have to work their sprint too. In the history of IM racing, I only recall 2 sprint finishes...the Ken Glah vs Pauli Kiuru at IM New Zealand photo finish and the Peter Reid vs Chris Leigh sprint finish at IM Oz.
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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Strength-Trainers: Deena K., Meb K., Michael Phelps, Ryan Hall, Haile G., Chris Lieto, Craig A., Mirinda C., Magali T., Dave Scott, Mark Allen, Joe Friel

Non-Strength-Trainers: Rappstar, Some Guy Named Ken Lehner

Hmmmm....to whom should I defer?
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [dmm] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [vikingstumps] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [vikingstumps] [ In reply to ]
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DD should have to do a shot every time someone posts to this thread.
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [dmm] [ In reply to ]
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Strength-Trainers: Deena K., Meb K., Michael Phelps, Ryan Hall, Haile G., Chris Lieto, Craig A., Mirinda C., Magali T., Dave Scott, Mark Allen, Joe Friel

Non-Strength-Trainers: Rappstar, Some Guy Named Ken Lehner

Hmmmm....to whom should I defer?

In the Department of Redundancy Department...

When you or anyone else here has the base and the yards/miles as those on your list, hit the weights with the knowledge that you'll get that last .1% performance gain. Have you not understood anything that Jordan has written?

Following your lead of rhetorical questions, how is it that Michael Phelps became an Olympic and world champion and world record holder before he ever did any dry land training? Why is it that Lance Armstrong dropped all strength training in his comeback attempt?

And don't insult Jordan by including me in any list with him in it (except for maybe Ivy grads).

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [gbot] [ In reply to ]
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I think you need to re-take your philosophy class, son. Under your sophomoric interpretation of the appeal-to-authority fallacy, one should not heed the advice of their coach (who also espouses strength training, btw), the wisdom of their professor, or the counsel of their doctor because to do so will be demeaningly written off as an appeal to authority?

Reductio ad absurdum.
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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You're right. None of those people knows what their doing.
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [dmm] [ In reply to ]
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Wow, that's an EXHAUSTIVE list if ever I saw one...

By the way, Phelps is actually NOT a strength trainer. He does *some* core conditioning work with swiss balls and medicine balls, but he won 6 Olympic gold medals before he ever picked even touched something other than the water. But he's definitely NOT a "strength trainer." He can barely bench press 135. He's tried...

And you can add to the list of non-strength trainers guys like:

Bekele, you know, the guy who broke Geb's 10km world record.

Or maybe let's consider Sammy Wanjiru, the guy who won the Olympic marathon, beating the pants off Ryan Hall, who has said "I never do any strength training. You can get enough strength from running on cross-country-type courses." Huh, what an amazing concept.

Or maybe let's ask Paula Radcliffe, you know the woman who actually holds the marathon world record AHEAD of Deena Kastor. That's right - she's NOT a strength trainer.

Why don't you actually spend some time figuring out what elite athletes do NOT strength train. You might actually learn something...

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [dmm] [ In reply to ]
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Strength-Trainers: Deena K., Meb K., Michael Phelps, Ryan Hall, Haile G., Chris Lieto, Craig A., Mirinda C., Magali T., Dave Scott, Mark Allen, Joe Friel

Non-Strength-Trainers: Rappstar, Some Guy Named Ken Lehner

Hmmmm....to whom should I defer?

Really they are strength trainers? How much and ryan hall bench 95lbs? You think mark allen can squat 300 lbs? They aren't STRENGTH training whether they call it that or not.

Why everyone keeps including phelps in a list of endurance athletes is beyond me? Yes we all agree Phelps should be in the weight room. Most of his events are all anaerobic. Or at least use a lot of that physiological system. In a marathon how long are you anaerobic again?
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [kdw] [ In reply to ]
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I can't believe I've read most of this, but even more amazing is that Rappstar has corrected most poor arguments, misuse of terms, and just plain stupid examples.

I applaud your effort sir - hopefully you've convinced SOME people to S-B-R more opposed to wasting their time in the gym (assuming these people are lifting because they believe it is making them faster in triathlons).

_______________________________________________
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Fair enough, I stand very slightly corrected.


Actually, it's a significant correction. The fact that you think it's a slight correction is the problem.


If you want to turn this into a pointless semantic debate we can do that but we're going to lose the 3 people who are still interested in the topic.

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AGers who aren't at the pointy end of the field DO have a muscular imbalance (and perhaps even a mild injury) that is limiting them to some extent.

despite people's great faith that it does. Appropriate exercises can correct things, but I must have missed where you actually gave an in depth explanation of how you make sure the exercises are appropriate.


Yeah, because this is a 4 minute post in a web forum, not a book on training methodology.

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When Crowie outsprinted Lieto at the end of Boise 70.3 last year was it aerobic conditioning that was Lieto's limiting factor in those last 200 meters?


Yes, because it was the 20.9 KILOmeters that came beforehand that made the difference.


If you want to make that argument you could point to almost ANYTHING that came before that point that made the difference. If Lieto had been 3 seconds faster in T1 he'd have won. Clearly the limiter was his ability to transition quickly. :-)

Would you agree that if Lieto was able to run the last ~200 meters faster than Crowie did that he would have won? If you would agree to that seemingly obvious statement is it your contention that running a ~200 meter race (which is what that race became when Crowie pulled even) is entirely about aerobic conditioning?


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It is possible, though not always ideal, to exercise the muscles used in a particular motion without actually performing the motion in context.


It's not only "not always" ideal, it's NEVER ideal.


I guess we'll just have to disagree on that one then.

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I'm suggesting that the newbies will get to those 40 mile week (which ARE necessary) faster and more capably if they supplement their 15 mile weeks with resistance training designed to condition (and yes, even strengthen) the muscles that are important in running and maintaining good running form.


I know that you think that. The problem is that you only think it, you don't actually know it, because there isn't evidence to support it.


Something else we're going to have to just disagree on I guess.

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I'm saying that it benefits them to exercise those muscles useful to their particular sport (running in this example) in a manner that is low impact and puts them at less risk of injury than doing more miles than they are currently ready for. You mentioned pilates as a "movement" that might help the newbies. Yeah, pilates is all about the core. I think pilates can definitely help many (most?) AG athletes to improve.


Pilates is actually not about core. Stupid Pilates instructors will tell you about core, but the original book by Joe Pilates is called "Contrology," which tells you all you need to know.


Well, actually since "Contrology" doesn't appear to be an actual English word all it tells us is that Joseph Pilates apparently didn't rely on a dictionary when he named his system. I don't really think that's "all" we need to know, is it?

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A core with appropriate endurance is important to pilates, but only someone that doesn't actually understand what pilates actually is would tell you it's all about core.


O.K., we're back to debating semantics again. <eye roll> You're right, Pilates isn't ALL about core. Shall we argue about whether it's 72.5% about core or 61.3% about core?

Would you at least agree that the major tenets of pilates include posture and alignment and that in the course of improving your posture and alignment exercises are performed that strengthen the core?

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I happen to think


Great. We've been over this a lot. You think. "In god we trust. All others bring data." Split your n=72 into two groups, one of which does zero core conditioning, and then we might have something worth discussing. Your n=72 is really n=1, because you have no control group. You have as much of a "lab" as you need. What lack is methodology.


I'll see if I can get half of them to agree not to do any "strength training" (whatever that happens to mean to them) in order to satisfy your requirement. Of course that won't really be a perfect control either since they're not identical twins starting at the exact same ability level.

And I suspect they'll laugh and decline but hey...that'll be fun too.


Ben Schorr
http://www.twitter.com/hitriguy
Then: Hawaii 70.3 (2009, 2010), Longhorn 70.3 (10/17/2010), IM Texas (5/21/11)
Now: IM Arizona (11/20/2011)
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [dmm] [ In reply to ]
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I think you need to re-take your philosophy class, son. Under your sophomoric interpretation of the appeal-to-authority fallacy, one should not heed the advice of their coach (who also espouses strength training, btw), the wisdom of their professor, or the counsel of their doctor because to do so will be demeaningly written off as an appeal to authority?

Reductio ad absurdum.

I'm not your dude, guy.
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe we need to come to a mutually agreeable definition of "strength training" so that this debate may be properly framed. I am NOT talking about the traditional notion of "lifting weights." When you blithely say that Michael Phelps does not "strength train", but does core work on balls, etc., this is precisely what I am referring to as "strength training." I suspect that is what most endurance athletes are referrring to as such.

I am a proponent of strength training, but I almost never touch a free weight. In fact, my in-season and off-season routines rarely incorporate anything more than my own body weight. I am talking about all manner of planks, stability exercises on the BOSU ball, yoga movements, plyometrics, balancing exercises and the like. So the straw man you have so carefully built that equates "strength training" with anything more than that may kindly be taken down.
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [dmm] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe we need to come to a mutually agreeable definition of "strength training" so that this debate may be properly framed. I am NOT talking about the traditional notion of "lifting weights." When you blithely say that Michael Phelps does not "strength train", but does core work on balls, etc., this is precisely what I am referring to as "strength training." I suspect that is what most endurance athletes are referrring to as such.

I am a proponent of strength training, but I almost never touch a free weight. In fact, my in-season and off-season routines rarely incorporate anything more than my own body weight. I am talking about all manner of planks, stability exercises on the BOSU ball, yoga movements, plyometrics, balancing exercises and the like. So the straw man you have so carefully built that equates "strength training" with anything more than that may kindly be taken down.

How much time do you spend on these body weight exercises? How do they make you faster in SBR?

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [dmm] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe we need to come to a mutually agreeable definition of "strength training" so that this debate may be properly framed. I am NOT talking about the traditional notion of "lifting weights." When you blithely say that Michael Phelps does not "strength train", but does core work on balls, etc., this is precisely what I am referring to as "strength training." I suspect that is what most endurance athletes are referrring to as such.

I am a proponent of strength training, but I almost never touch a free weight. In fact, my in-season and off-season routines rarely incorporate anything more than my own body weight. I am talking about all manner of planks, stability exercises on the BOSU ball, yoga movements, plyometrics, balancing exercises and the like. So the straw man you have so carefully built that equates "strength training" with anything more than that may kindly be taken down.

Actually, we don't need to come to a "mutually agreeable definition." You just need to learn the actual definition that already exists. There is a perfectly good definition of strength training, and I don't feel the need to redefine it because you are too obtuse to actually spend the time looking it up BEFORE you post on this forum.

The fact that other people also have no concept as to what these terms actually mean is also not my problem. The fact that you are a big proponent of something that you don't actually understand the definition of just underscores how little you are actually adding to this argument.

Since you don't seem inclined to actually educate yourself, I'll explain to you what you actually wrote. Then you can remove your straw man that you built around terms that you don't understand and you can - if you wish - actually engage me in a logical debate about the actual topics that people who do understand are trying to address.

STRENGTH: the ability of a person to exert force on physical objects using muscles.

STRENGTH TRAINING: exercises designed to increase strength

That's the ONLY definition of strength. It doesn't mean anything more or less than that. If you need some help understanding that definition, I'm happy to help. But either a one-rep max or the maximum isometric force (so like pushing on a door that doesn't budge) are both acceptable standards for measuring strength.

The exercises that you have described basically consist of a variety of endurance, strength, balance/proprioceptive exercises of a non-specific nature. Planks and plyometrics are totally different different exercises. One is an isometric endurance exercise. The other an exercise in neuromuscular coordination, explosive power, and strength. They share essentially nothing in terms of training effect. So for you to group them together under the category of "strength training" is totally incorrect. Plyometrics is a strength exercise, among other things, but planks are not.

So, basically, you have admitted you don't really understand that terms being discussed, you do a random hodgepodge of exercises that you don't fully understand the purpose of, and yet you think that we should reach some sort of mutual understanding?

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Geezus! 204 friggin replies. For half of the posters in this thread, "go study physiology". To the other half, "go spend time with your family. Your triathletes afterall, they'd like to see you".


Steve

http://www.PeaksCoachingGroup.com
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [kdw] [ In reply to ]
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DD,
What was your guess for the over/under number of posts to this thread when you started it? Are we getting close?

dd is on a business trip and can't even read his own thread goodness. I've been texting him updates. :p

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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No need for the venom, my man. Just so you don't make the same mistake in future posts, however, planks are isometric exercises, also known as static strength training.

The notion that a plank would not be considered a "strength" exercise is, well, I'll let others decide for themselves.

I'm out.....I've got a yoga class I'm late for.
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [dmm] [ In reply to ]
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No need for the venom, my man. Just so you don't make the same mistake in future posts, however, planks are isometric exercises, also known as static strength training.

The notion that a plank would not be considered a "strength" exercise is, well, I'll let others decide for themselves.

I'm out.....I've got a yoga class I'm late for.

Sorry, wrong again. Isometric exercises can be static strength exercises _OR_ they can be static endurance exercises (though most people would call that "stability," which is sort of fine with me, though you are specifically training the endurance of your muscles, so that's really the most appropriate term to use). In the case of planks, provided you can actually get into the plank position in the first place, you have the required strength. What you then lack is endurance.

Example of each:
Plank as a static strength exercise - get in the plank position. Have someone put a stack of 2 or 3 45lb plates on your back. Hold the plank for 2-6sec.

Planks as a static endurance exercise - get in a regular plank position. Hold for 20-60sec.

Enjoy yoga. Maybe spend some time in the library on the way home.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [dmm] [ In reply to ]
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Strength-Trainers: Deena K., Meb K., Michael Phelps, Ryan Hall, Haile G., Chris Lieto, Craig A., Mirinda C., Magali T., Dave Scott, Mark Allen, Joe Friel

Non-Strength-Trainers: Rappstar, Some Guy Named Ken Lehner

Hmmmm....to whom should I defer?


So. . .which of the following do you think has made the more significant contribution to Haile's running career:

A) Running 10k to (and from) school everyday for ten years of childhood (~70mpw over 10 years)
B) Maintenance work at the gym, post-WR.

Hmm. . .to what should we defer?

Now I'm going to go back and do my best not to reply in this thread. . . :)
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [dmm] [ In reply to ]
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Strength-Trainers: Deena K., Meb K., Michael Phelps, Ryan Hall, Haile G., Chris Lieto, Craig A., Mirinda C., Magali T., Dave Scott, Mark Allen, Joe Friel

Non-Strength-Trainers: Rappstar, Some Guy Named Ken Lehner

Hmmmm....to whom should I defer?

If you don't mind, put me in the Non-Strength-Trainers: column please.

-

The Triathlon Squad

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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Paulo Sousa] [ In reply to ]
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Strength-Trainers: Deena K., Meb K., Michael Phelps, Ryan Hall, Haile G., Chris Lieto, Craig A., Mirinda C., Magali T., Dave Scott, Mark Allen, Joe Friel

Non-Strength-Trainers: Rappstar, Some Guy Named Ken Lehner

Hmmmm....to whom should I defer?

If you don't mind, put me in the Non-Strength-Trainers: column please.

Pssh like you coach good athletes or something :p
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar is destroying these fools! This is about as good as the questioning of what exactly Folmer technologies was(is)?
Last edited by: DawgTown: Aug 11, 10 14:41
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Devlin] [ In reply to ]
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dd is on a business trip and can't even read his own thread goodness. I've been texting him updates. :p

I wonder if the people around him are a bit worried when every time he checks his texts he starts giggling uncontrollably.
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Actually, we don't need to come to a "mutually agreeable definition." You just need to learn the actual definition that already exists. There is a perfectly good definition of strength training, and I don't feel the need to redefine it because you are too obtuse to actually spend the time looking it up BEFORE you post on this forum.

The fact that other people also have no concept as to what these terms actually mean is also not my problem. The fact that you are a big proponent of something that you don't actually understand the definition of just underscores how little you are actually adding to this argument.

Jordan, words serve only one purpose: to communicate. And they mean exactly what the parties involved agree that they mean (and often they DON'T agree what they mean, which is a common cause of miscommunication).

You're perfectly happy to accept Joseph Pilates use of the word "Contrology" even though the word has no apparent basis in the English language. And that's fine, as long as you and Joe agree on what it means then that's what it means for you.

People often agree on the meaning of words which may not mean the same thing (or ANY thing) to other people. My wife and I have a few terms/words that would sound like nonsense to a third party but we know what they mean to us and that's all that matters. I'm sure you and your wife are the same way. (congrats on that, by the way!)

One of the first steps in data communication is that both ends of the line agree on a protocol that governs the communication. To some extent it doesn't really matter what that protocol is, as long as both sides agree - they're speaking the same language.

The same is true here. A "stem" means one thing to a cyclist and something else to a sailor. When I was in school we had a class called "Drafting" and there wasn't a bike in the room. Just a bunch of t-squares and compasses.

The subject of this thread, which has drifted somewhat it appears, refers to the term "weight training". That term means different things to different people. You can arrogantly declare that there's only one proper definition of "weight training" if you want to, but that's just not so.

It seems clear that some people believe "weight training" equals "weight lifting" and further that "weight lifting" means throwing a bunch of iron on a bar and moving it.

For those people I will say that, in my opinion, no...that kind of weight lifting, except perhaps in certain very unusual cases, is NOT going make you faster. It's hard to imagine a scenario where putting 225 on a bench press and throwing it up half a dozen times is going to make you faster. Certainly it never made me any faster. But I wasn't doing it to get faster, I was doing it to knock down linebackers in a previous sporting life.

When my triathlete friends say "strength training" they do often have different exact meanings. For most of them they use the term to refer somewhat generically to any kind of cross-training/isometrics/plyometrics generally out-of-sport things which may include pilates, yoga, kettle bells, running up/down stairs. A couple of them even actually do mean going to the gym and lifting weights.

We can discuss whether there is value in any or all of that, and I suspect the answer is going to depend considerably upon the athlete doing it, what and how they're doing it and what they're passing up in order to do those exercises.

Or we can sit here and belittle others for not using our definition of words.


Ben Schorr
http://www.twitter.com/hitriguy
Then: Hawaii 70.3 (2009, 2010), Longhorn 70.3 (10/17/2010), IM Texas (5/21/11)
Now: IM Arizona (11/20/2011)
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [bschorr] [ In reply to ]
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A stem doesn't mean one thing to a cyclist and one thing to a sailor. It means one thing IN THE CONTEXT OF CYCLING. If you are talking to a cyclist about sailing and you talk about the stem, and he thinks you are talking about the thing that attaches the handlebar to the steerer tube, he is incorrect.

Weight training has one definition. Training with weights. If you want to debate that, that's fine, because I can see some debate about does that mean free weights only, medicine balls, etc. But my issue has never been with weight training. From my perspective, a foot is a weight and if you want to say running is weight training because you are lifting a weight - your foot and lower leg - off of the ground, that's fine. The debate has NEVER been about the definition of "weight training."

However non-specific weight training is as a term, strength training is equally specific. Just because you can't be bothered to use the terms correctly, that's doesn't make you correct. It just makes you ignorant.

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When my triathlete friends say "strength training" they do often have different exact meanings. For most of them they use the term to refer somewhat generically to any kind of cross-training/isometrics/plyometrics generally out-of-sport things which may include pilates, yoga, kettle bells, running up/down stairs. A couple of them even actually do mean going to the gym and lifting weights.


You do realize that you are basically conceding that if people do not use terminology correctly it makes it impossible to have a discussion about something. If "strength training" really does mean such a hodgepodge of things, how is it possible to ever actually evaluate and discuss it? It's not. It does have a meaning, a very specific one. You just can't be bothered to abide by it.

Look at it another way, how valuable would it be if you told folks to go do VO2max intervals on the bike and some people did a workout like 6 x 3min @ 115% of FTP with 3min rest and other folks went out and rode 90min @ 50% FTP. Of course, since the term might mean different things to different people, both are totally okay... That's absurd. Training is entirely based around the idea of specificity. You need to be able to say exactly what you mean.

That's why words have meanings - that is exactly what allows people to use words to communicate. You don't have to guess what you sort of drink will show up in your hand when you order a latte at Starbucks. A latte is a latte. That's why I don't need to say a drink made from ground coffee beans put into an espresso machine that injects very hot water through the mixture at high pressure and which is then mixed with milk from a cow's udder that has rapidly been heated by steam. But according to you, that's how I should order my coffee, because a latte might mean something totally different to that particular barista.

Next time you tell your mechanic to tighten the stem on your bike, don't get mad when he tightens the skewer of the front wheel since it's near the "stem" of your bike, at least if would be if he's a sailor...

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Just because you can't be bothered to use the terms correctly, that's doesn't make you correct. It just makes you ignorant.

Ah, I see you've chosen to simply belittle others for not using your definition of words. Fair enough, saves me some time.

Watch how much time I save by not correcting your misunderstanding of what a "stem" is on a ship. :-)


Ben Schorr
http://www.twitter.com/hitriguy
Then: Hawaii 70.3 (2009, 2010), Longhorn 70.3 (10/17/2010), IM Texas (5/21/11)
Now: IM Arizona (11/20/2011)
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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You don't have to guess what you sort of drink will show up in your hand when you order a latte at Starbucks. A latte is a latte. That's why I don't need to say a drink made from ground coffee beans put into an espresso machine that injects very hot water through the mixture at high pressure and which is then mixed with milk from a cow's udder that has rapidly been heated by steam. But according to you, that's how I should order my coffee, because a latte might mean something totally different to that particular barista.


I wonder, if one were to walk into a Starbucks in Italy and order a "latte", would one get a cafe latte, or a glass of milk? :p


<If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough>
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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I can appreciate both sides of the debate, and yes, actually read a lot on the subject of physiology. My research has led me to my current training regimen, which I have found to be highly successful, for me. Rappstar, and many others, obviously got very fast without strength training.

Here is my question. Have any of you guys arguing so vehemently against its benefit ever tried any form of strength training? What were your experiences? Did you find that it inhibited your ability to improve?

I'm legimately asking, not trying to fuel the debate or claim my way is better.

I personally improved at a much faster rate when strength training than I did before doing running only. I am not saying that is the singular causation of my improvement. I also changed my diet, included anaerobic training, focused on active recovery, and in general dedicated myself much more to the sport(s). All of these have been factors. I now do a lot of anaerobic training and heavy, explosive olympic lifts. I find that I can fully recover between short, intense workout sessions, and hit it hard a few hours later. I typically do 4 weight sessions, and 6-8 s/b/r workouts a week, including one hard anaerobic effort apeice, as well as one tempo or hard longer effort per sport. Its working. Something else may work better.
Last edited by: smugfit: Aug 11, 10 15:23
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not replying to smugfit specifically but I remember seeing this a while back and thought it might be relevant.

The Secret Wish
There's a secret wish among a lot of triathletes out there. They wish that there's another way to being fast. The easier, shorter, faster way to get there.

-- Paulo Sousa
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [c.dan.jog] [ In reply to ]
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Im glad that wasnt directed at me.

I train my ass off. I am wrecked laying it down every night, which means nothing except that the intensity is there. Im not looking for a shortcut, I want to be fast, period. Not in spite of my training, not fast on limited training, but because I trained hard and smart.

A lot of people making the anaerobic/strength argument are looking for a get rich quick. You can get to a pretty high level of fitness with general purpose fitness programming, and be a decent endurance athlete as a result. Thats not my intent. Im looking to post competitive results, and am willing to put in the time/effort to do so. I have seen exponential improvement from the current plan. Was it because I had a great base before I started? Most certainly.

I am not strength training because Lance or Lieto is or isn't, as many have pointed out, what they do doesnt really matter to those of us who cant train full time.
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [c.dan.jog] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not replying to smugfit specifically but I remember seeing this a while back and thought it might be relevant.

The Secret Wish
There's a secret wish among a lot of triathletes out there. They wish that there's another way to being fast. The easier, shorter, faster way to get there.

-- Paulo Sousa

Wait, that was supposed to be a SECRET!?

Heck, I looked at every bottle on the shelf but couldn't find Vitamin Crowie. ;-)


Ben Schorr
http://www.twitter.com/hitriguy
Then: Hawaii 70.3 (2009, 2010), Longhorn 70.3 (10/17/2010), IM Texas (5/21/11)
Now: IM Arizona (11/20/2011)
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [bschorr] [ In reply to ]
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Just because you can't be bothered to use the terms correctly, that's doesn't make you correct. It just makes you ignorant.


Ah, I see you've chosen to simply belittle others for not using your definition of words. Fair enough, saves me some time.

Watch how much time I save by not correcting your misunderstanding of what a "stem" is on a ship. :-)


It's too bad that you feel that way, because everything Jordan's written above is valid. If you no longer wish to reply, good riddance, since you think that taking words with multiple definitions out of context justifies inaccuracy of the single definition in context. You can think it's arrogant of someone to correct you with regard to the definition in a specific context, but really it is just a quest for clarity. I should hope you never get treated by a medical doctor with such lack of concern for accuracy over the communication of physiological data. Unfortunately scrupulousness is frequently mistaken for hubris.
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [smugfit] [ In reply to ]
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Have any of you guys arguing so vehemently against its benefit ever tried any form of strength training? What were your experiences? Did you find that it inhibited your ability to improve?

I'm legimately asking, not trying to fuel the debate or claim my way is better.

I have. In the mid-90s, I lifted and rode with a cycling team, and also did triathlons. I managed 59:36 for the NJ District 40km TT. I was 37 or 38. I then took missed the entire 40-44 age group due to "life." Fast forward to 2001, when I had gained almost 30 pounds. I rode my ass off for a couple of years, lost the weight. 2004, on the same course, I did 59:43 at age 46, without having touched weights in nearly a decade.

I lifted several times a week in college. Of course, that made sense for a high jumper.

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [smugfit] [ In reply to ]
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I can appreciate both sides of the debate, and yes, actually read a lot on the subject of physiology. My research has led me to my current training regimen, which I have found to be highly successful, for me. Rappstar, and many others, obviously got very fast without strength training.

Here is my question. Have any of you guys arguing so vehemently against its benefit ever tried any form of strength training? What were your experiences? Did you find that it inhibited your ability to improve?

I'm legimately asking, not trying to fuel the debate or claim my way is better.

I personally improved at a much faster rate when strength training than I did before doing running only. I am not saying that is the singular causation of my improvement. I also changed my diet, included anaerobic training, focused on active recovery, and in general dedicated myself much more to the sport(s). All of these have been factors. I now do a lot of anaerobic training and heavy, explosive olympic lifts. I find that I can fully recover between short, intense workout sessions, and hit it hard a few hours later. I typically do 4 weight sessions, and 6-8 s/b/r workouts a week, including one hard anaerobic effort apeice, as well as one tempo or hard longer effort per sport. Its working. Something else may work better.

So...all of those are factors, yet you say "Weight training makes me faster!" (And the something else that may work better is not doing explosive Olympic lifting. Just saying...)

As far as the heavy, explosive lifting that you do 4x a week, strength training coaches advocate 24-48 hours rest between intensive lifting sessions per body part, so how are you quantifying your recovery? How can you realistically say that you are fully recovered, and able to do a quality SBR session? How do you know that you aren't getting faster in SBR because you are concentrating on it, and that you would not progress even faster if you dropped the heavy lifting from your routine?

As far as "have you tried it", yes, I have. I have been competing in something year round since I was 4. For the first 17 years, that was swimming and soccer. I added cross country and competitive cycling in my high school and college years. After that, I moved into martial arts. At the same time I started martial arts, I added weight lifting (of the pick it up/put it down variety). I found that I got much slower, as the time that I was dedicating to weight lifting and martial arts did not allow me enough quality triathlon time. When I came back to tri's, I wasn't doing as much martial arts, but I was still weight lifting. The extra weight that I carried due to lifting hampered my training. I found that when I dropped the weights and concentrated solely on SBR, I got lighter and faster, with less fatigue.

Earlier this year, when I was going for 4th degree, I wrote off this season, as I needed a different type of training that was specific to the sport I was concentrating on. (There's that concept of specificity again). Once I passed the test, I dropped a lot of the training I had been doing, and went back to SBR. I've dropped 17 lbs (From 185 to 168), and the only resistance training I do is harder gears on the bike. And, guess what? I'm faster. What a concept.

Here is an interesting list of abstracts. A little old, but some very good stuff:
http://coachsci.sdsu.edu/csa/vol12/table.htm

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Devlin] [ In reply to ]
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As far as the heavy, explosive lifting that you do 4x a week, strength training coaches advocate 24-48 hours rest between intensive lifting sessions per body part, so how are you quantifying your recovery? How can you realistically say that you are fully recovered, and able to do a quality SBR session? How do you know that you aren't getting faster in SBR because you are concentrating on it, and that you would not progress even faster if you dropped the heavy lifting from your routine?


As I stated before, I'm not saying its the single factor that caused my improvement. Unless I add/eliminate every single piece of the equation, I can't isolate one cause. I grew up a swimmer and a runner. Tons of yardage/miles, very little strength stuff. Did nothing for a few years, mounted my comeback, and started training again. I got faster. Then I added other forms of training (discussed earlier), I continued getting faster. At a faster rate. Hence I'm a proponent.

My piece is stated. I managed to waste most of the workday with this, and it was fun. Now off to the track for some 100s. (Yes I think a faster 100 time will help run a faster mile, which will help run a faster 10k.)
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [smugfit] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, I've done lots of different kinds of strength training, from the very classic olympic-lift based programs to stuff that's more crossfit-esque that isn't really "pure" strength training. I've tried a lot of different programs. What I noticed was that my *strength* and my endurance were essentially unrelated. Getting stronger didn't make me any more powerful in the context that mattered to me, which was/is racing triathlons. Or, previously, rowing races.

What I have found is that I have made the most profound gains when I have focused on executing focused, sport-specific training. Run hills, time trial efforts on the bike, hard efforts in the pool without relying on paddles or a pull buoy, LOTS of time on the erg and in the rowing tanks.

I do now use *resistance* training to address specifically identified imbalances, most of which are from my accident with a car, but for sure I have some other imbalances which I've attempted to address, most notably through simple isometric exercises that target a single specific muscle. As an example, my peroneus longus on my right side tends to get very tight when I run a lot, which causes me some discomfort. This happens largely because I tend to run very pigeon toed, and even moreso on the right side. So I've done some resistance work on trying to balance out the muscles that support my right foot with light elastic bands so that I can run with a bit better foot strike, and I think that has helped improved my run training overall. But I'm talking about absurdly low resistance and extremely targeted exercises and an imbalance that was identified by a logical and methodical thought process. These exercises are simply designed to isolate and then activate those specific muscles in the hopes that they can then be properly trained by actually going out and running.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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JR,

You really can't give this up. I have a suggestion to reinforce our side of the story better. Post up a picture of your skinny dorky body with zero muscle definition( I can say that because I am built the same way) and tell them that despite that skinny, dorky no muscle body - you are an Ironman Champion!

That's all that really needs to be said. :-)


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the answer.

Of course I know his background, and I respect his opinion. I also am entitled to mine. I think the argument is interesting, and the civilized portion of the debate sparks good ideas all around. It at least causes me to examine my own beliefs. Isnt that the point?
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [draketriathlon] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
In Reply To:
Strength-Trainers: Deena K., Meb K., Michael Phelps, Ryan Hall, Haile G., Chris Lieto, Craig A., Mirinda C., Magali T., Dave Scott, Mark Allen, Joe Friel

Non-Strength-Trainers: Rappstar, Some Guy Named Ken Lehner

Hmmmm....to whom should I defer?


If you don't mind, put me in the Non-Strength-Trainers: column please.


Pssh like you coach good athletes or something :p


Can I get put in whatever group Magali Tyssere is in. I don't really care what her training protocol is, I just want to be in the same group :-) :-) :-)
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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Ken....8-9 years later a few seconds difference in finish time...but did you have:
  1. different bike
  2. different helmet
  3. different rubber
  4. different wheels
  5. different aero position
  6. different temperature
  7. different atmospheric pressure
  8. different wind pattern
  9. different vehicular traffic on course
  10. different pavement quality


Unless we see the wattage numbers, your cited example is fairly baseless....just saying there are too many variables that go into the 40k TT time that you can't really say whether weights on no weights had ANY impact on your finish time. For all we know you were putting out 20 less watts and going the same time, or maybe putting out 20 more watts and going the same time.

Dev
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [smugfit] [ In reply to ]
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My piece is stated. I managed to waste most of the workday with this, and it was fun. Now off to the track for some 100s. (Yes I think a faster 100 time will help run a faster mile, which will help run a faster 10k.)


100s may very well improve your mile time, but not because of gains in aerobic efficiency. [EDIT: Maybe I shouldn't say that. . .your set of 100s could actually be some beast of a fartlek run for all I know. . .] Generally 100s are attributed to preserving "leg speed." However, that term is about as vague as "weight training." Provided you're not overstriding, they can reinforce good running form, much the way that fishies credit their frequent speedwork with developing good technique. However there are a variety of purposes and approaches to them. . .one of Lydiard's plans had a set of 100s with the recovery run the day after the longest run of the week, for example, (each week) during the base building. *shrug*
Last edited by: jdw: Aug 11, 10 18:04
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Unless we see the wattage numbers, your cited example is fairly baseless....just saying there are too many variables that go into the 40k TT time that you can't really say whether weights on no weights had ANY impact on your finish time. For all we know you were putting out 20 less watts and going the same time, or maybe putting out 20 more watts and going the same time.

Dev

Then any scientific experiment/study with regards to human performance can be dismissed. He's presenting it as anecdotal evidence, as were my examples.

I do find it interesting the myriad ways that people choose to bury their head in the sand.

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Devlin] [ In reply to ]
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This thread is staying in the grave about as well as Freddy or Jason.

Aerodynamics are for people who can't build engines. -Enzo Ferrari
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Can I get put in whatever group Magali Tyssere is in. I don't really care what her training protocol is, I just want to be in the same group :-) :-) :-)

Sign me up.

===============
Proud member of the MSF (Maple Syrup Mafia)
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [jdw] [ In reply to ]
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Just because you can't be bothered to use the terms correctly, that's doesn't make you correct. It just makes you ignorant.


Ah, I see you've chosen to simply belittle others for not using your definition of words. Fair enough, saves me some time.

Watch how much time I save by not correcting your misunderstanding of what a "stem" is on a ship. :-)


It's too bad that you feel that way, because everything Jordan's written above is valid. If you no longer wish to reply, good riddance, since you think that taking words with multiple definitions out of context justifies inaccuracy of the single definition in context. You can think it's arrogant of someone to correct you with regard to the definition in a specific context, but really it is just a quest for clarity.

Well, except he's NOT asking for clarity. He's arrogantly lecturing others about what the words mean and belittling them if they don't use his definitions.

Jordan is a terrific triathlete and a great source of information and experience on the subject of endurance sport, no doubt about it. He's a smart guy and I'm always interested in reading what he has to say.

If he has a different definition of a word then that's fine, let's agree on what definition we're going to use and move on. Not insist that your own definition is the only possible definition and everybody else is ignorant. In most cases I'm probably o.k. with using his definition. I'm not o.k. with being told I'm stupid if I don't use words exactly the way he does.

And frankly, on that specific point, he's wrong. Words mean what they mean in the context of the conversation and by agreement of the participants. Tell a Brit that their house is "homely" and they'll be flattered. Say it to a New Yorker and you might have to duck. And a latte is never just a latte at Starbucks. You have to tell them what size, if you want it "skinny" or "soy", if you want it iced or hot, there are a dozen flavored latte's...i.e. there has to be some agreement about what "latte" means to you.

If there's some "ST Glossary" that I missed when I logged in I'll be happy to refer to it. Otherwise we should all accept that we all come from different backgrounds and "strength training" might mean "weight lifting" to some people and "plyometrics" to others.

I'm interested to know if there is value for a triathlete to do "strength training" in addition to his SBR workouts. I see good AG triathletes who do pilates (for one example) and they seem to believe that it helps them. I see elite athletes like Chrissie doing plyometrics. I see a variety of coaches recommend it. In my opinion many AGers could benefit by supplementing their SBR workouts with an intelligent "strength training" plan. I could be wrong. If so I'd like to have a reasoned discussion about why I'm wrong. Not be lectured about pilates being called "Contrology". (speaking of words with specious definitions)

If the only argument against supplemental training is "There's no data to support that it helps" well...then it just boils down to opinion. Jordan's opinion is obviously worthy of respect given his position in the sport and his accomplishment. But there are a lot of other top athletes and coaches who seem to have a different opinion.

And that opinion seems a little problematic when you dismiss most of the people on the podium by saying they only strength train because they are now finding themselves limited by something other than aerobic capacity. Presumably Chrissie only does plyometrics because the strength of her legs/glutes/hips is now her limiting factor? How could we know that? Or is she wrong to do them?

But o.k., if we accept that for the purposes of discussion how does a triathlete determine that their limiting factor is perhaps not aerobic conditioning and is, instead, something where plyometrics, yoga or some other form of "strength training" would benefit them? How does the equation change for masters athletes?

Running speed is basically stride rate times stride length. And the ability of your body to apply force against the ground is one of the factors. There may be an interesting discussion here about power to weight ratio and whether or not an average AG athlete can use "strength training" techniques to supplement their SBR training and improve their own power to weight ratio.

Does that discussion change if the athlete is a Clydesdale/Athena? What role does body composition play? (i.e. down to a certain point it seems more beneficial for a heavy athlete to focus on shedding fat rather than building strength if they're looking to improve their power to weight ratio)

Ryan Hall is featured in an article showing him doing squats (with a barbell) and push-ups. The clear implication is that this is part of Ryan's training and we might want to do it too. Is he wrong? Maybe. Maybe he's right for people for whom leg strength is their limiting factor; at what point do you make that determination? That could be an interesting discussion.

But not if it's just going to devolve into a pedantic lecture about how ignorant we are of what the words "power" or "weight" or "leg" mean. Let's agree on the definitions and move on, without the attitude. Or else just drop it.

Damn, there went the time I saved.


Ben Schorr
http://www.twitter.com/hitriguy
Then: Hawaii 70.3 (2009, 2010), Longhorn 70.3 (10/17/2010), IM Texas (5/21/11)
Now: IM Arizona (11/20/2011)
Last edited by: bschorr: Aug 11, 10 18:22
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Devlin] [ In reply to ]
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I'm actually pretty sure that Ken's additional riding in his 40's was the reason for an awesome sub 60 time vs doing weights in his 30's. Just saying that his example has too many holes given that his example is a bike TT time, which we all know is pretty hard to compare from outing to outing on the same course. We all know that even for the same wattage, the final time posted can wildly vary for all the 10 points I mentioned in the previous post. For all we know, Ken actually posted 10% more watts at the higher age and only got the same time due to a "bad weather day"

If he had provided a 10K run time on the same course over 8-9 years at least the variations are not "quite as drastic" and if anything posting an equal run time in 45-49 compared to 35 would be even more proof that running more helps running over lifting, cause it is pretty well proven that the declines in running over age on the average are substantially more significant than in cycling.
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [CaptainCanada] [ In reply to ]
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Can I get put in whatever group Magali Tyssere is in. I don't really care what her training protocol is, I just want to be in the same group :-) :-) :-)

Sign me up.


There's a long line up to get into this group (The Magali group, not the "I do weights" group....)
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [jdw] [ In reply to ]
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My piece is stated. I managed to waste most of the workday with this, and it was fun. Now off to the track for some 100s. (Yes I think a faster 100 time will help run a faster mile, which will help run a faster 10k.)


100s may very well improve your mile time, but not because of gains in aerobic efficiency. [EDIT: Maybe I shouldn't say that. . .your set of 100s could actually be some beast of a fartlek run for all I know. . .] Generally 100s are attributed to preserving "leg speed." However, that term is about as vague as "weight training." Provided you're not overstriding, they can reinforce good running form, much the way that fishies credit their frequent speedwork with developing good technique. However there are a variety of purposes and approaches to them. . .one of Lydiard's plans had a set of 100s with the recovery run the day after the longest run of the week, for example, (each week) during the base building. *shrug*

What kind of intensity did Lydiard have those 100s at? Were those sprints or striders?


Ben Schorr
http://www.twitter.com/hitriguy
Then: Hawaii 70.3 (2009, 2010), Longhorn 70.3 (10/17/2010), IM Texas (5/21/11)
Now: IM Arizona (11/20/2011)
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [vikingstumps] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [bschorr] [ In reply to ]
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I don't understand why you kept saying "my" definition. It's not mine. It's the actual definition in the context of exercise physiology, which is what we're talking about here.

Here's an alternative example. I'm an engineer. If you asked me "how strong is that steel bar," I would then ask you if wanted to know the compressive strength, shear strength, or tensile strength of the bar. If you said you wanted to know the tensile strength, I would give you the exact amount of force that is required to cause necking in that bar, which would I would derive mathematically by knowing the dimensions of the bar and the value of the maxima on the stress-strain curve for that particular alloy of steel. That's what tensile strength means. Exactly.

So next time we talk about strength, would you consider it reasonable if I started talking about the futility of trying to increase the tensile strength of your limbs? Tensile strength is another definition of the word strength, but it's not relevant in the context of physiology.

Just like if we talked about training that would give you more courage during a race - another meaning of the word strength - that would be equally absurd.

In the context of physiology, strength has only one definition. I didn't make it up. And I certainly can't change it in order to come up with something that makes everyone happy.

Words do mean what they mean in the context of the conversation - which in this case is a conversation about physiology. Agreement of the participants has no bearing if the participants are not in a position to actually dictate the definition. It doesn't matter whether you and I agree or don't agree that the definition of the word strength is what it is. What matters is that it is the agreed upon definition according to exercise physiologists.

It's not like here on Slowtwitch we get to have a vote to decide what power, leg, and strength mean. They all already mean something. If you don't want to abide by those definitions, that's going to make things very difficult when it comes to having a discussion.

It's the very fact that you and others been so resistant to actually accepting those definitions that has caused this thread to go on as long as it has.

These are the definitions. There aren't others. And they aren't "mine." They are just THE definitions.

STRENGTH: the ability of a person to exert force on physical objects using muscles

STRENGTH TRAINING: the use of resistance to muscular contraction to build the strength, anaerobic endurance, and size of skeletal muscles.

Both definitions come from Wikipedia, but they would be totally acceptable to any exercise physiologist.

A tall latte or a grande latte doesn't actually change what a latte is. It just gives size. Just like a raspberry latte, if such a thing existed, which I'm sure it does, also doesn't change what a latte is, it just further defines it, much the same way that, in engineering, you need to specify tensile strength, compressive strength, or shear strength. But a latte is simply a drink made from espresso and steamed milk. All those other words just further specify exactly what details further describe your latte.

It's perfectly acceptable for strength training to mean weight lifting OR plyometrics. Both are fine examples of strength training. But, especially in the case of weight training, not all weigh training is strength training. Just like VO2max intervals and LT intervals are both examples of aerobic training, but not all aerobic training is VO2max.

Strength training is designed to increase the force that your muscles can produce. Since force is not time dependent, the accepted definition considers peak force. So how strong you are means how much peak force can you generate. And it means for one repetition. Because otherwise you need to introduce time and distance, and that is an entirely different word - power, which is force*distance/time - or distance, which is another word - work, which is force*distance - or just time, which is another word - impulse, which is force*time.

All these words mean something. And I didn't decide what.

But if you want to talk about whether or not strength training actually has a benefit for triathletes, you actually need to know what you are talking about. Otherwise, I fail to see how you can actually have the discussion.

If one persons thinks that doing low-rep (2-4) heavy-weight deadlifts is strength training (it is) and another person thinks that doing 20min wall-sits is strength training (it isn't), then that's gonna make it really hard to evaluate whether or not strength training is beneficial. But if somehow you see a way around all that, please enlighten me.

But please, please stop saying that I want people to use "my" definition of these words. I just want people to use THE definition.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [bschorr] [ In reply to ]
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My piece is stated. I managed to waste most of the workday with this, and it was fun. Now off to the track for some 100s. (Yes I think a faster 100 time will help run a faster mile, which will help run a faster 10k.)


100s may very well improve your mile time, but not because of gains in aerobic efficiency. [EDIT: Maybe I shouldn't say that. . .your set of 100s could actually be some beast of a fartlek run for all I know. . .] Generally 100s are attributed to preserving "leg speed." However, that term is about as vague as "weight training." Provided you're not overstriding, they can reinforce good running form, much the way that fishies credit their frequent speedwork with developing good technique. However there are a variety of purposes and approaches to them. . .one of Lydiard's plans had a set of 100s with the recovery run the day after the longest run of the week, for example, (each week) during the base building. *shrug*


What kind of intensity did Lydiard have those 100s at? Were those sprints or striders?


Off the cuff here, I'd say in our terms they're definitely striders. Keep in mind they are a part of the recovery. Lydiard was a fanatic with regards to stressing the aerobic metabolism. The 100s were not designed to be challenging sprints. . .if they were, they would inhibit recovery of the muscles, which would damage the athlete's ability to train the aerobic system the next day. . .and that would be sacrilege for the development of peak mileage, as well as the peak mileage base building (where peak mileage, i.e. ~100mpw, becomes progressively faster) - both of which the sole purpose was to reach maximal aerobic efficiency before tapping into anaerobic training. There is a pamphlet of one of Lydiard's lectures in 1999 (among other sources) where he discusses "leg speed" and these short-distance interval sets. I don't have the time to dig it up now, but I will go back and look over some of the materials again and see if I can give you a more specific answer, especially with regards to purpose as well as intensity. It is my suspicion (until I refresh myself on his work) that he did espouse some value in the 100s for running economy, since he consistently warned against developing a shuffling action during all the slower running that took place as the athlete took on increases of mileage. The placement of the 100s on the day following the longest, relatively slow, run (marked at 1/4th effort, although we know that Snell was still flying!) is consistent with this, at length. I will check in and verify these things. Hope that helped for now. :)
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [dmm] [ In reply to ]
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Strength-Trainers: Deena K., Meb K., Michael Phelps, Ryan Hall, Haile G., Chris Lieto, Craig A., Mirinda C., Magali T., Dave Scott, Mark Allen, Joe Friel

Non-Strength-Trainers: Rappstar, Some Guy Named Ken Lehner

Hmmmm....to whom should I defer?
**************

Would you mind putting including the workouts of these athletes?

Take, for example, Mark Allen. If I remember correctly, he was getting in 30-35 hours a week of SBR. How much strength training was he doing?

If you are deferring to Mark Allen, then are you saying that you are training 35 hours a week?


I ask primarily because I've noticed that people apply the same logic to track work when it comes to running. Everyone wants to hit the gym 3 hours a week while SBR 1/4 of what the elites do. At the same time they want to do just as much speedwork as the elites do while cutting out 85% of the milage.

If you want to defer to those guys, take the amount of time you spend in the gym and multiply that by the amount of more training time the spend SBR. ie A guy who hits the gym for 3 hours a week and SBR 10 hours a week would be doing 12 hours a week of gym time if he was Mark Allen.

Does anyone here think that Allen spent 12 hours a week in the gym? How much gym time do you think he spent? I know the answer. He spent whatever amount he could such that it did NOT impact his SBR training.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Jordan,

Could you elaborate a bit more on the thought process that led to the resistance training you do? Did a PT/chiro/massage therapist prescribe your band exercises, or did you determine what to do on your own? Are there any resources you would recommend to others trying to identify and work on their own imbalances?
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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The whole doing core or any weight workouts is very much of the Endurance Nation principle. Which if fine if you only have time to S_B_R.

But look at Chrissie Wellington's calves in person and tell me she doesn't do any strength training. They're like big oak trees.
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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A tall latte or a grande latte doesn't actually change what a latte is. It just gives size. Just like a raspberry latte, if such a thing existed, which I'm sure it does, also doesn't change what a latte is, it just further defines it, much the same way that, in engineering, you need to specify tensile strength, compressive strength, or shear strength. But a latte is simply a drink made from espresso and steamed milk. All those other words just further specify exactly what details further describe your latte.

....which is why you can't just walk into Starbucks and ask for a latte any more than you can ask an engineer "how strong is that steel bar". :-)

They can't fill your order without understanding more about what you're asking for, just as you can't answer the question without knowing what kind of strength (tensile in your fine example) the questioner is asking about.

"Latte" and "strength" can mean very different things. If we go to Starbucks my latte and your latte could bear very little resemblance to each other. (if that ever happens, I'm buying)

But we've wasted way too much time on this already, let's move on....

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If one persons thinks that doing low-rep (2-4) heavy-weight deadlifts is strength training (it is) and another person thinks that doing 20min wall-sits is strength training (it isn't), then that's gonna make it

Well, here's a place where we may need to clarify. It would seem to me that a wall-sit is designed to build muscular endurance isn't it? So why wouldn't that be considered strength training? I get that they're isometric instead of concentric but isometrics are muscle contractions too. Just because the muscle isn't actually shortening doesn't mean it's not under tension and generating force.

Am I missing something?


Ben Schorr
http://www.twitter.com/hitriguy
Then: Hawaii 70.3 (2009, 2010), Longhorn 70.3 (10/17/2010), IM Texas (5/21/11)
Now: IM Arizona (11/20/2011)
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [kylekaboom] [ In reply to ]
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But look at Chrissie Wellington's calves in person and tell me she doesn't do any strength training. They're like big oak trees.


Because there are lots of women doing 8:19 IMs for comparison. . .it must be the weights!!

Pro cyclists' quads have that appearance, too. While Cadel did discuss some weight training on competitor.com, I'm wondering if that 7-hour training ride through the mountains to prepare for the tour didn't have something to do with it, too. Hmm...
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [bschorr] [ In reply to ]
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Since we're going to use the Wikipedia version of the definition, we may as well use the entire writeup (or at least the first couple paragraphs):
Strength training From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to: navigation, search This article is about the basic principles to train muscular strength. For strength training using free weights or weight machines, see weight training.
Strength training is the use of resistance to muscular contraction to build the strength, anaerobic endurance, and size of skeletal muscles. There are many different methods of strength training, the most common being the use of gravity or elastic/hydraulic forces to oppose muscle contraction. See the resistance training article for information about elastic/hydraulic training, but note that the terms "strength training" and "resistance training" are often used interchangeably.
When properly performed, strength training can provide significant functional benefits and improvement in overall health and well-being, including increased bone, muscle, tendon and ligament strength and toughness, improved joint function, reduced potential for injury, increased bone density, a temporary increase in metabolism, improved cardiac function, and elevated HDL (good) cholesterol. Training commonly uses the technique of progressively increasing the force output of the muscle through incremental increases of weight, elastic tension or other resistance, and uses a variety of exercises and types of equipment to target specific muscle groups. Strength training is primarily an anaerobic activity, although some proponents have adapted it to provide the benefits of aerobic exercise through circuit training.

Strength training differs from bodybuilding, weightlifting, powerlifting, and strongman, which are sports rather than forms of exercise, although training for them is inherently interconnected with strength training, as it is for shotput, discus, and Highland games. Many other sports use strength training as part of their training regimen, notably football, lacrosse, basketball, rugby, hockey and track and field.
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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These are the definitions. There aren't others. And they aren't "mine." They are just THE definitions.

STRENGTH: the ability of a person to exert force on physical objects using muscles

STRENGTH TRAINING: the use of resistance to muscular contraction to build the strength, anaerobic endurance, and size of skeletal muscles.

Both definitions come from Wikipedia, but they would be totally acceptable to any exercise physiologist.


Not to be picky, but not "totally acceptable to any exercise physiologist".

From Brooks, Fahey, and Baldwin 4th ed. pg 456

"Muscular strength is the amount of force that a muscle can produce with a single maximum effort."

Similar definitions can be found in other texts, the key elements being single and maximum/maximal.

Just thought I'd clarify the issue. Not that wikipedia isn't a great resource for information.... well, at least for undergrad term papers.


Steve

http://www.PeaksCoachingGroup.com
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [jdw] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, interesting, thanks. I come out of a "power" background - sprints and football - which may help explain why I'm hard to convince that strength training has no benefit for triathlon.

Of course I recognize that sprints are largely anaerobic vs the almost entirely aerobic nature of long course triathlon. But I think there are times when it's beneficial (like with the finish line in sight) to have an anaerobic gear to shift into if you want it.

And I can understand the running form argument - trying to avoid the shuffle.


Ben Schorr
http://www.twitter.com/hitriguy
Then: Hawaii 70.3 (2009, 2010), Longhorn 70.3 (10/17/2010), IM Texas (5/21/11)
Now: IM Arizona (11/20/2011)
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [S McGregor] [ In reply to ]
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These are the definitions. There aren't others. And they aren't "mine." They are just THE definitions.

STRENGTH: the ability of a person to exert force on physical objects using muscles

STRENGTH TRAINING: the use of resistance to muscular contraction to build the strength, anaerobic endurance, and size of skeletal muscles.

Both definitions come from Wikipedia, but they would be totally acceptable to any exercise physiologist.


Not to be picky, but not "totally acceptable to any exercise physiologist".

From Brooks, Fahey, and Baldwin 4th ed. pg 456

"Muscular strength is the amount of force that a muscle can produce with a single maximum effort."

Similar definitions can be found in other texts, the key elements being single and maximum/maximal.

Just thought I'd clarify the issue. Not that wikipedia isn't a great resource for information.... well, at least for undergrad term papers.

So...the proponents of weight training have managed to shift the focus of the debate from the dubious benefits of weight training to a perceived semantic ambiguity.

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Devlin] [ In reply to ]
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These are the definitions. There aren't others. And they aren't "mine." They are just THE definitions.

STRENGTH: the ability of a person to exert force on physical objects using muscles

STRENGTH TRAINING: the use of resistance to muscular contraction to build the strength, anaerobic endurance, and size of skeletal muscles.

Both definitions come from Wikipedia, but they would be totally acceptable to any exercise physiologist.


Not to be picky, but not "totally acceptable to any exercise physiologist".

From Brooks, Fahey, and Baldwin 4th ed. pg 456

"Muscular strength is the amount of force that a muscle can produce with a single maximum effort."

Similar definitions can be found in other texts, the key elements being single and maximum/maximal.

Just thought I'd clarify the issue. Not that wikipedia isn't a great resource for information.... well, at least for undergrad term papers.


So...the proponents of weight training have managed to shift the focus of the debate from the dubious benefits of weight training to a perceived semantic ambiguity.

John


I dunno. I'm not sure who's who in this debate that is supposed to be in its grave. Jordan was, in effect, speaking for a very inclusive sample of exercise physiologists, and I was pointing out that he was slightly in error. If one is going to stand on the mountain top and impersonate AC, one should probably get the definitions right.


Steve

http://www.PeaksCoachingGroup.com
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [S McGregor] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks Steve. I agree that my definition was certainly lacking in comparison to the one you provided, and I appreciate you posting it.

Of course, I'd submit that it'd be hard to have a maximal effort that wasn't singular. That would sort of defeat the purpose of it being maximal, wouldn't it. ;)

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [brandonweilbike] [ In reply to ]
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Jordan,

Could you elaborate a bit more on the thought process that led to the resistance training you do? Did a PT/chiro/massage therapist prescribe your band exercises, or did you determine what to do on your own? Are there any resources you would recommend to others trying to identify and work on their own imbalances?

The structures come from the work of Tom Purvis, who developed the Resistance Training Specialist program, but the fundamentals are really just simple physics. If you think I'm picky about terminology... Let's just say that Tom would have a field day in this thread, though he'd probably also do a MUCH better job than I have of explaining things.

My own "trainer" (though I use the term very loosely) is a student of RTS and MAT (Muscle Activation Techniques, what my wife practices), which is a manual therapy that shares a lot of tenets with RTS, though which functions through a different modality.

Basically, using the well established principles of kinesiology, you can isolate and test the "response" of a muscle in isolation. Basically, how does a specific muscle react to an applied, low-level force (30lbs or so, though it does depend on the particular muscle). A simple explanation of applied kinesiology - if you want to test the response of the gluteus medius, the test is to lay in the supine position, 0deg of hip flexion, abduct the leg you wish to test to it's end range (as far as you can); keep the other leg neutral. External rotate your femur. Have the person push directly parallel to the ground. In that position, your glute med is in it's shortest position. It has the MOST mechanical advantage. So it should be the most capable of resisting. If it can't, the response will not be as firm, and that's an indication the your gluteus medius is "weak," (though that doesn't mean it isn't strong enough, just that it isn't really "responsive").

Commonly, pain comes because muscles are overworking. A muscle that is sore is functional, but often overworked. As an example, your quadriceps are responsible for knee extension (among other things). They are ALSO responsible for eccentric control of knee flexion. This is part of why your quads get so sore running DOWNHILL. Eccentric control is a huge part of movement. Remember my example of my peroneus longus? It's an external rotator of the tibia (as well as being an everter of the foot). Remember how I said I tend to run pigeon toed? So a muscle like the peroneus longus is having to do a lot of work to try and counter that internal rotation of my tibia. So that was the pain I was getting. As a result, we tested and evaluated all the muscles that serve to internally and externally rotate the tibia, as well as muscles that control inversion and eversion of the foot. In my particular case, the muscles that seem to give me the most "trouble" are popliteus and anterior tibialis. So before I run, I do some simple isometrics to work on activating these muscles.

Basically, I'm just trying to restore motor control to these muscles. Developing the actual endurance in that muscle is going to come from actually swimming/biking/running.

Spend some time reading: http://www.resistancetrainingspecialist.com/

A lot of the things on here will help explain a lot of what I wished I'd done a better job of explaining in this thread. I wouldn't recommend RTS practitioners across the board. But if you have someone near you who is an RTS practitioner, it'd be worth talking to him/her.

The course is focused almost entirely around physics, because physics is really what resistance training is all about. Here's a particular snippet on the RTS principal of "STRATEGIC RESISTANCE™"

Quote:
To most trainers choosing the right resistance is simply a matter of grabbing the right dumbbell. In reality the actual amount of a resistance is not that simple.

In every exercise the resistance varies throughout the range of motion. For most trainers this occurs unknowingly and haphazardly. This all happens whether you choose to be in charge of it or not!

Beneath the surface there are many hidden factors that affect the actual amount of resistance, and often have more influence than the number printed on the weight. These include numerous mechanical factors, the physic-al properties of the device, as well as user-related influences such as acceleration and tempo.

It is vital that we know all the ways that resistance is and can be manipulated. Strategic manipulation of the resistance at various points in the range of motion is paramount to altering the outcome of the exercise in terms of muscular challenge, motor recruitment, joint forces, and ultimately the exercise experience.

If that sounds about 180deg from what you've ever heard from a trainer before, you aren't alone.

It's about logical, thoughtful and methodical evaluation of what exact exercises to do and logical, thoughtful, and methodical evaluation about how those exercises actually affect you.

If you spend 10min doing a plank, what did that actually do for you? RTS not only *wants* to know, it *requires* that you know. Not that an RTS practitioner would ever have you do a plank, but I digress...

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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The structures come from the work of Tom Purvis, who developed the Resistance Training Specialist program, but the fundamentals are really just simple physics. If you think I'm picky about terminology... Let's just say that Tom would have a field day in this thread, though he'd probably also do a MUCH better job than I have of explaining things.

My own "trainer" (though I use the term very loosely) is a student of RTS and MAT (Muscle Activation Techniques, what my wife practices), which is a manual therapy that shares a lot of tenets with RTS, though which functions through a different modality.



Spend some time reading: http://www.resistancetrainingspecialist.com/

A lot of the things on here will help explain a lot of what I wished I'd done a better job of explaining in this thread. I wouldn't recommend RTS practitioners across the board. But if you have someone near you who is an RTS practitioner, it'd be worth talking to him/her.

The course is focused almost entirely around physics, because physics is really what resistance training is all about. Here's a particular snippet on the RTS principal of "STRATEGIC RESISTANCE™"

Quote:
To most trainers choosing the right resistance is simply a matter of grabbing the right dumbbell. In reality the actual amount of a resistance is not that simple.

In every exercise the resistance varies throughout the range of motion. For most trainers this occurs unknowingly and haphazardly. This all happens whether you choose to be in charge of it or not!

Beneath the surface there are many hidden factors that affect the actual amount of resistance, and often have more influence than the number printed on the weight. These include numerous mechanical factors, the physic-al properties of the device, as well as user-related influences such as acceleration and tempo.

It is vital that we know all the ways that resistance is and can be manipulated. Strategic manipulation of the resistance at various points in the range of motion is paramount to altering the outcome of the exercise in terms of muscular challenge, motor recruitment, joint forces, and ultimately the exercise experience.


If that sounds about 180deg from what you've ever heard from a trainer before, you aren't alone.

It's about logical, thoughtful and methodical evaluation of what exact exercises to do and logical, thoughtful, and methodical evaluation about how those exercises actually affect you.

If you spend 10min doing a plank, what did that actually do for you? RTS not only *wants* to know, it *requires* that you know. Not that an RTS practitioner would ever have you do a plank, but I digress...

You're going to laugh when you read this, but I'm going through the RTS courses right now towards the Mastery Level (which is probably what your trainer has). I've also done the MAT beginner course. Now I understand a lot more about where you are coming from. Before I decided to move to Ottawa in December I was actually being hired by one of the top RTS/MAT guys in Toronto in order to progress with my education. The stuff is really eye opening - most of the trainers I work with just look at me like a freak when they see what I do with people.


Part of the Slowtwitch Strength Training Association. Picking up something heavier than a bike makes me happy.
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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[reply
STRENGTH: the ability of a person to exert force on physical objects using muscles.

STRENGTH TRAINING: exercises designed to increase strength

That's the ONLY definition of strength. It doesn't mean anything more or less than that. If you need some help understanding that definition, I'm happy to help. But either a one-rep max or the maximum isometric force (so like pushing on a door that doesn't budge) are both acceptable standards for measuring strength.
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G'day Rappster,

I don't get what you saying here. Your'e talking about a one rep max yet in YOUR definition of strength you mention "objects". If your definition of strength is the ability to exert force on objects (plural) then doesn't it immediately become reps.....more than one........90 rpm etc..... so effectively your saying strength is a measure of more than one-rep max, that is like you said an ability to move something more than once (objects).

Just like yourself, playing semantics here, but your definitions contradict themselves. Remember WE all come from different backgrounds, beliefs and understandings, not sure why your so obsessed with getting everyone to fit in with your beliefs and understandings, they are not as universal as you think they are. You only need to look at some of the top coaches from around the world and how they define their understanding of training principles. The underlying message though is not that much different if you learn to put semantics aside

Paul
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [triman10] [ In reply to ]
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If your definition of strength is the ability to exert force on objects (plural) then doesn't it immediately become reps.....more than one........90 rpm etc..... so effectively your saying strength is a measure of more than one-rep max, that is like you said an ability to move something more than once (objects).

there is a difference between force and power. You need power to move things. Power is applying force over time. The power required to do one repetition of a certain exercise requires the use of a certain force for the time that this one repetition takes. Pure by definition of strength i think your max strength should be higher then the strength you need to do one repetition. As the maximum force might be something you can only generate for extreme short times (maybe even too short to move something for a full repetition).
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [triman10] [ In reply to ]
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G'day Rappster,

I don't get what you saying here. Your'e talking about a one rep max yet in YOUR definition of strength you mention "objects". If your definition of strength is the ability to exert force on objects (plural) then doesn't it immediately become reps.....more than one........90 rpm etc..... so effectively your saying strength is a measure of more than one-rep max, that is like you said an ability to move something more than once (objects).


*sigh* there is no metric of time indicated in that definition. . .objects *plural* just means that you don't necessarily need a dumbell to test for one-rep max. . .just any object of sufficient weight. If it were me writing about *power* (force/time), I'd have tagged "multiple times in relatively close succession" onto the end of the definition, in order to indicate repetitions.

In Reply To:

Just like yourself, playing semantics here, but your definitions contradict themselves. Remember WE all come from different backgrounds, beliefs and understandings, not sure why your so obsessed with getting everyone to fit in with your beliefs and understandings, they are not as universal as you think they are. You only need to look at some of the top coaches from around the world and how they define their understanding of training principles. The underlying message though is not that much different if you learn to put semantics aside

Paul


I know it's gotten enormous, but you should go back and read all the posts if you have time. Jordan already clarified the problem of attributing the definitions to him (they are not arbitrarily created by him, but standardized, despite arbitrary use by others), and, if you think "the underlying message is not that much different," you REALLY need to go back and survey the thread here. If that isn't a sufficient counter-example already. . .
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [smugfit] [ In reply to ]
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"My piece is stated. I managed to waste most of the workday with this, and it was fun. Now off to the track for some 100s. (Yes I think a faster 100 time....."
100s aren't normally used to increase one's 100 time....not unless you intend to do them with 10-20 minutes of rest in between. If you want to increase your 100 time, try steep hill running, box jumps, explosive squats, hang cleans, sprinting while dragging a tire or parachute, low hurdles, starts, and 30-50 meter all out sprints.

".....will help run a faster mile,....."


Yes 100s will improve your mile time.

".......which will help run a faster 10k.)"


Compared to not running at all, yes it probably will. Compared do using a 10K training program let me ask you this: wouldn't it make more sense to do workouts geared toward a 10K to improve your 10K time?



This happens time and time again. Whenever someone asks how to improve their time at X distance, the non-runners in the crowd will either tell them "you need to train for a longer event so that X distance becomes easier," OR they say, "you need to train for a faster event so that X speed becomes easier." Wrong, wrong, wrong. You need to do the training that makes you faster for the event that you are training for, not for some other event!

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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This happens time and time again. Whenever someone asks how to improve their time at X distance, the non-runners in the crowd will either tell them "you need to train for a longer event so that X distance becomes easier," OR they say, "you need to train for a faster event so that X speed becomes easier." Wrong, wrong, wrong. You need to do the training that makes you faster for the event that you are training for, not for some other event!

Barry - all true. But when I see the way many rec runners and triathletes slog along, training for a marathon, I have to imagine that it they got off that treadmill, trained seriously and in the right way, to run their absolute best 5K or 10K, then came back to the marathon at some later date - they would indeed set a great marathon PB. But few actually do this.


It's a beautiful morning here. I am headed out for a bike ride! :-)



Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
Last edited by: Fleck: Aug 12, 10 5:50
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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This happens time and time again. Whenever someone asks how to improve their time at X distance, the non-runners in the crowd will either tell them "you need to train for a longer event so that X distance becomes easier," OR they say, "you need to train for a faster event so that X speed becomes easier." Wrong, wrong, wrong. You need to do the training that makes you faster for the event that you are training for, not for some other event!


99% of IM athletes cannot run an IM run faster than their zone 1 pace, yet the majority of IM athletes will spend 99% of their running volume at a pace that is faster than their actual race pace.

That is a fact.

But heh, so long as your 5km time, 10km time or your threshold time, or FTP is faster than mine, you'll always have the potential to run a faster IM run......LOL. Calling DD.....LOL (Insert tongue in cheek)


Paul
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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I have to imagine that it they got off that treadmill, trained seriously and in the right way, to run their absolute best 5K or 10K, then came back to the marathon at some later date - they would indeed set a great marathon PB.




And I'll have a guy train for a marathon *the right way* and run even faster than that.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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And I'll have a guy train for a marathon *the right way* and run even faster than that.

Agreed. I think we are on the same page. I just see so many people(rec runners and triathletes) grinding/slogging along with that mono-pace run training and they never really get out of the rut or take it to the next level. They need to change it up - somehow.



Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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"My piece is stated. I managed to waste most of the workday with this, and it was fun. Now off to the track for some 100s. (Yes I think a faster 100 time....."
100s aren't normally used to increase one's 100 time....not unless you intend to do them with 10-20 minutes of rest in between. If you want to increase your 100 time, try steep hill running, box jumps, explosive squats, hang cleans, sprinting while dragging a tire or parachute, low hurdles, starts, and 30-50 meter all out sprints.

".....will help run a faster mile,....."


Yes 100s will improve your mile time.

".......which will help run a faster 10k.)"


Compared to not running at all, yes it probably will. Compared do using a 10K training program let me ask you this: wouldn't it make more sense to do workouts geared toward a 10K to improve your 10K time?



This happens time and time again. Whenever someone asks how to improve their time at X distance, the non-runners in the crowd will either tell them "you need to train for a longer event so that X distance becomes easier," OR they say, "you need to train for a faster event so that X speed becomes easier." Wrong, wrong, wrong. You need to do the training that makes you faster for the event that you are training for, not for some other event!

Thanks for your gracious advice. It seems like everyone on this thread, which used to be about weight training, loves to take the opportunity to tell everyone else how they are training wrong, without having any knowledge of my logbook, background, research level or ability.

Yes I went and read your training plan. You make an interesting case. Im sure you have coached people to faster run times.

In the last 6 months I've gone from a 42:45 to 38 min 10k, 1:42 to 1:28 half marathon and 19:30 to 18:15 on a 5k. Im pretty happy with my run performance. I run 2 days a week, one track workout and one time trial, somewhere from 5k-13.1. Looks like you can be successful doing a lot less volume than you call for.

Oh don't worry, I know the auto-response will be - "Just think if you had run every day!" I'm spending my time on the bike, because thats where I need to improve to be more competitive. There aren't many people who pass me on the run portion.

Note here that I'm not arrogantly bashing your program without knowing anything about it. I gave credit to the fact that it appears you have done your homework on the subject. Don't assume I haven't done mine.
Last edited by: smugfit: Aug 12, 10 8:13
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [smugfit] [ In reply to ]
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In the last 6 months I've gone from a 42:45 to 38 min 10k, 1:42 to 1:28 half marathon and 19:30 to 18:15 on a 5k. Im pretty happy with my run performance. I run 2 days a week, one track workout and one time trial, somewhere from 5k-13.1. Looks like you can be successful doing a lot less volume than you call for.

Note here that I'm not arrogantly bashing your program without knowing anything about it. I gave credit to the fact that it appears you have done your homework on the subject. Don't assume I haven't done mine.

What is your running background previously? I ask because there are very few people out there that can run 18:15 for 5k on 6-15 miles a week in two sessions.

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Hey desert Dude....how is that grave digging going? ;)
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [smugfit] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for your gracious advice. It seems like everyone on this thread, which used to be about weight training, loves to take the opportunity to tell everyone else how they are training wrong, without having any knowledge of my logbook, background, research level or ability.



I didn't tell you you were training wrong. I responded directly to your comments about making your 100 faster to make your mile faster to make your 10K faster. Perhaps you mispoke or perhaps I misunderstood, but as I stated following that that a lot of people get confused about how to train and assume that they should work on one distance to improve another when what they really need to do is work on the distance that they intend to improve at. Whether or not this applies to you is entirely up to you because, as you pointed out, I really don't know what your log looks like.

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In the last 6 months I've gone from a 42:45 to 38 min 10k, 1:42 to 1:28 half marathon and 19:30 to 18:15 on a 5k. Im pretty happy with my run performance. I run 2 days a week, one track workout and one time trial, somewhere from 5k-13.1. Looks like you can be successful doing a lot less volume than you call for.



It all depends on what you call "successful." 18:15 is nothing to sneeze at and there are plenty of people on this forum who would kill to run that fast. On the flip side, you would have been a JV runner on my high school XC team.

Your training plan is doing a fine job of keeping you in decent shape considering that you are running only two days a week. If you had asked me for a two day a week plan and gave me your info, I would probably tell you to do exactly what you are doing, but you are still going to be well short of your potential. Needing to work on the bike is a great reason to cut back the running the way you have, but that does not mean by any stretch of the imagination that it is an ideal or even an acceptable program for someone who is actually trying to run to their potential. I have no idea if you would claim that it is. I'm just stating the information so that someone reading doesn't misunderstand.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Back from the grave...

First, my apologies for joining your forum and immediately dredging up an old post on a tired topic. I stumbled upon the discussion, found it interesting, and couldn’t manage to leave it alone. Please let this die and shame me as you see fit.

Second, the esteemed Mr. Rapp’s insistence on adhering to the technical definitions of “strength” and “strength training” in this debate is sensible. The debate is one of science and science requires rigid definitions. So, according to earlier posts, strength training= “the use of resistance to muscular contraction to build the strength, anaerobic endurance, ..of skeletal muscles.” Unfortunately this definition is: 1) somewhat circular in including what it does in addition to what it is - if you’re using resistance to muscular contraction in pursuit of other goals (flexibility, bone density, etc.?) is it no longer strength training? - by excluding aerobic performance from the effects in the definition is the debate over before it’s even started? and 2) doesn’t align exactly with the definition of strength as maximal instantaneous force - the concept in question could just as accurately be called anaerobic endurance training. Indeed, multiple repetitions up to a certain limit seems to be accepted as strength training and is inherently anaerobic endurance training (near maximal force endurance training?).

Third, given the physics of physiology discussion, I’m surprised that Force, Power, and Time were discussed; but not Work. Work (=Force x Distance =Power x Time) seems to be the most useful and relevant concept. Equivalent work can be done with strength training - at high force/high power/short time and swim/bike/run - at low force, low power, long time. And the hypothesis of strength training proponents seems to be that beneficial adaptation occurs in response to work even without specificity, and strength training can add workload to training loads that are otherwise limited (by time, injury, etc.).

Fourth, I don’t think that one can fairly say “strength training is of no benefit to (long-course) triathlon because no scientific evidence exists”. This ignores the history of sport - the scientific evidence and explanations often/always lag behind the practice of training. The scientists mostly try to explain why what the coaches and athletes do works. Also, the scientific jury may still be out on this issue. Some of the studies summarized here, http://thatpaleoguy.com/...s-part-one-of-three/, show improvement in 40k timetrials due to strength training.

And again, my apologies if this discussion is stale and has already been resolved elsewhere.
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Re: Lets put the weight training debate in the grave [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
From Bompa himself (and if you don't know who he is, you should hide in the corner and say 9 hail marys in arabic)

""Finally, for endurance-dominant sports, one needs to develop muscle-endurance [tens and even hundreds of reps]. If this isn't achieved, a good adaptation to such training won't occur.

I think Joe Weider is much more significant than Bompa.
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