Search.... there are probably 10000 posts on this.

I'll just toss this out.

I, for one, can change a normally glued tubie far faster than I can a clincher.

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"you know, aero trumps training ;-) "
R10C 10/09

Tubies are actually easier and faster to change when you flat in a race. The wheels and tires are lighter. The can hold higher pressure on occaisons where it is needed. Clinchers have improved to the point where performance is probably equal, and the subject of much ST debate.

Personally, I still like tubies.

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David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

Tubies rarely, if ever, pinch flat.
Faster to change.
You can ride them quite a distance while flat.

(I ride clinchers.)

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Dick

Take everything I say with a grain of salt. I know nothing.

There may be 10000 posts on here and hundreds of thousands of posts all over the internet if you Google it up but why be a douche bag about it? There will be zero questions and zero discussions on ST going forward if the answers to everything is "search." If you don't want to answer the question don't.

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My marathon PR is "under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."

Or you could figure out that this question has been answered so many times its mind numbing for people to continue to post the exact same question about it.

Or you could just not be a douche about it, like zoom said.

A lot is tradition because 20 years ago there was almost no such thing as a race quality clincher. A lot is personal taste, which won't be resolved by quantitative debate. Tubulars offer a significant weight advantage which is more important for road racing than TT/Triathlon. Tubulars are less prone to pinch flats because the tube is fully encased in the casing. Tubulars are much more time and labor intensive to mount properly in the shop/home. Some say on the road changes are faster than clinchers, some don't. A tube is less heavy/bulky to carry than a tire. Everything else is a matter of debate.

I ride clinchers for the convenience, but I recently bought one (front) tubular for TTs. I don't care much about weight, and I'd be wary of hard turns on any tubular applied on the road after a flat, but... for TTs flatting is a non-issue: if I flat I lose. Plus, with deeper wheels tubulars tend to be more aero, especially with a cross wind. That said, I only went with the one tubular (after promising myself I was done with them) because I got a nice deal on it.

For reference I have Zipp 303's in both Tubular and Clincher. Same year, same hub, same spokes and comperable tires (although I suppose I could try the same version of tire in both clincher and tubie) so I suppose the comparison is about as fair as it gets. I greatly prefer riding the tubular version to the clincher. Some if it is due to the fact that the tubie is almost a pound lighter than the clincher, but I'm sure some has to do with the feel of the tire itself.
Honestly though on my tri bike it makes little difference since what I like about the tubulars is their responsiveness -or 'Jump' when accelerating. This plays a factor while road racing and in my enjoyment sprinting to and from stop signs on training rides, for the long steady grind of a Tri the clinchers are just as nice.

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This is your life, and it's ending one minute at a time. - Fight Club
Industry Brat.

Oh, and by the way, in 10+ years of road racing on clinchers I've only suffered a pinch flat once: a pothole at full speed (in a pack) pinch flatted the front wheel and broke both rims (without flatting the rear tire!). So while the "tubies don't pinch flat" argument is true, I really don't see it as much of an issue.

When I bought my wheels in 2006 (Blackwell Disc and 100 front), there were not many clincher disc choices. No Zipp, No Hed, the Renn had the 575 and Maderia, but they never returned my phone calls.

okay sorry didn't mean to offend the guy who has been here for 2 weeks...

oh please - douchebaggedness [not that this is an example of it really] is a time honored tradition, especially when it comes to clincher v tubbies.

thanks for the support of my non-douchebaggedness...

and just for my own personal support of my non-douchebaggedness. no one has mentioned that you can ride on tubulars when they are flat but you cant ride on clinchers...

that said

SEARCH lol

And to help out the OP - here is a similar question asked by some FNG back in 2006 ;-)

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...t_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

BS...that depends on the tire and the rim, and in both cases (tubular or clincher) continuing on a flat all depends on whether or not you care about damaging your rims.

If there's ONE thing that really bugs me about the tubular vs. clincher angst is the absolutism that some apply to their opinions...i.e. tubulars pinch flat less, clinchers don't "ride" as well, tubulars are "rounder", etc, etc....

Actually...if it weren't for the development of the deep carbon tubular rim, tubular tires would have probably died out long ago...

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Which only means that it would have higher rolling resistance than an equivalent clincher tire/tube setup...so yeah, the tubie won't slow down your flat change as compared to a clincher, but you'll be slower all the time you ride it. I'm not sure if I'd go with that tradeoff...

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Make it same tire AND tube type...and then have someone randomly put them on your bike and somehow prevent you from knowing which wheelset is on there...then get back to us ;-)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

You can read all of the pros and cons but I would never buy another tubular again. Too much hassle compared to clinchers.

Thank you all for the information and opinions, I appreciate it.

I fixed your post for you ;-)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

I think that you are underestimating the great role that tradition plays in the sport of cycling.*

*Ironically, triathletes like to lay claim to being innovators, but I see just as much emotional support for tubulars on this forum as on any purely cycling one.

So...what you're saying is my "probably" should have been a "possibly"? :-)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

A few nasty things about tubies that I was unaware of:
1) It costs $35 a wheel to have them glued by a good bike shop (Vechios) would not go with the Performance crew for this operation. I know it is a straightforward process to do at home, but it takes a long time AND if you do it wrong a rolled tire is a serious problem. I've done it once and have elected to subcontract this out. For road (esp. TT) you might be OK re-gluing every couple of years. For cyclocross and nasty road racing, it is re-glue every spring.
2) If they are carbon rims, you'll need ~$40-$60 worth of carbon-specific brake pads. You'll need to swap out the brake pads every time you ride the wheels. Not a big deal, but another thing to deal with that is not training or recovering. You might need to adjust your caliper spacing as well.
3) If you show up to a big group ride (like the bus stop ride in Boulder) with carbon tubies, be prepared to get guttered, flicked and generally mocked. They are considered "race day only" by roadies that are cooler than you. Somehow carbon clinchers seem to be OK for group rides though.
4) Valve extenders (another $25) -man I got smashed by this one - Get the valve extenders that are made my vittoria/tufo and require the core of the valve in the tire to be removed. It makes the inflation process just like you're used to. I had to DNF my A race in 2007 because the zipp valve extender was causing a slow leak. All that pain for nothing but a $10 part to fail.

Whatever.
I was just trying to present the other side's arguments.
I ride clinchers. They're faster than my tubies were, for me.

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Dick

Take everything I say with a grain of salt. I know nothing.

Not sure about HED wheels but with Zipp wheels that is not the case unless you are using Campagnolo brakes.

You will never see agreement on the forum.

Fact is that some high-end wheels only come in tubular. So if you want to use the wheels then you are using tubulars. Simple as that.

I wanted a Stinger 9 so I purchased one. It is my first tubular. No clincher option.

With the HED Stinger 6's (C2 width) you are lucky if you only have to 'adjust' the width of your caliper. Well, I suppose that depends on your definition of 'adjust', for Shimano-style side-pull dual pivots you either have to sand down your pads to reduce the width, or dremel/modify your calipers in some other intrusive way to make more room.

I got a pair of tubular race wheels because I got what I considered a deal that I couldn't pass up. The 'fun' that I've had since then includes pulling the rear tubular because the previous owner removed the valve extender before shipping, attempting to remove the old glue so I could re-glue to learn the process, this literally took me something like two weeks where I tried like every solvent and method recommended on these forums and found none of them to be all that effective. As a bonus, the goof-off I was using at one point leaked down the side of the rim and messed up some of my decals. I finally got the wheel stripped and decided that I will never do that again and proceeded to install my new valve-core extender on the tubular and undertake the gluing and mounting process on my own. It went OK, but I found it difficult to center the tire in the rim with the glue applied, as it stands I can see some small sections where the tire tape is visible along the edge of the rim, something that I do not think reflects well upon the trueness of how I mounted the tire.

At last, I had my tires glued and mounted, valve extenders securely installed, a previously stretched and glued spare ready and proceeded to mount my wheels and enjoy the bounty of my hard (albeit amateur hour) work. Removed the brake shoes and installed the carbon pads, then discovered that wheels would not even fit my brakes as mentioned above, so back to sanding down the pads on my newly acquired expensive carbon brake pads.

At this point these wheels have been nothing but trouble to me and I regret not having just gotten clinchers. I recognize most of my woes can be blamed on my inexperience with tubulars, I’m sure they are much easier to work with over time, but IMHO the learning curve still sucks. I am really hoping with some time and experience that my opinion of them changes for the better.

In deference to both Tom and Andy I do have to admit that I ride tubies because that is what I have always done. I like their feel, the look, the smell of glue, the easy change and I can fold one spare properly.

Can't argue Crr because the arguement isn't there, and yes, there is no way I could possibly pull a "properly glued" tire off a rim in a race.

I currently have enough nice tubies hanging to last quite some time and hope to never be forced to change to clinchers...but one never knows.

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"you know, aero trumps training ;-) "
R10C 10/09

it's really a personal decision. I've raced and trained on both....my preference is tubulars for racing and clinchers for training.

I love the feel of tubulars on a nice set of wheels. I think they ride better. Do I have data to back me up? No.

I can change a tubular in a race more quickly than a clincher....fortunately, I've only had to do it once. But, thats over 40-50 races...so even if it took longer, time to repair is a small consideration....for me the more important factor is how nicely they ride.

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__________________
JP

my twitter feed

So...what you're saying is that people who prefer tubulars are a bunch of glue sniffers? ;-)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

The smell of the glue is nothing compared to the smell of the solvents you need to use to take off the glue. Don't forget the XL floor fan when doing that. ;-)

Sergio

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Note: English is not my first language. Please read this translated post considering that.

Sinner!

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

How many 'Our father's' and Hail Mary's is it, then?

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_________________
Dick

Take everything I say with a grain of salt. I know nothing.

One advantage of the tubular is that (at least according to both Zipp and HED) their tubular versions are aerodynamically superior to the clincher as they dont require parallel sidewalls. They also end up a bit lighter than their clincher cousins which is a mild bonus depending on conditions.
I see tubulars in a triathlon as a death or glory thing. My tubies are well glued, I carry a can of Vittoria pit stop, if that doesnt work its the sag wagon. I have only ever flatted once in a race, a duathlon. No sealant so I had to wait for the sag. It turns out the sag was also carrying beer out the the volunteers at the aid station..... that was a happy sag ride!

Kevin

Yes...Zipp and Hed do claim that...but, by how much? IIRC, the Zipp difference isn't awfully large...and as far as the differences Hed shows goes, I'd like to see what tires were used in the particular runs. In either case, unless you glue up the tires in AFM's "excessively glued" method, I have a feeling those "aero advantages" will end up being lost to the Crr losses, at which point one would probably be better off running clinchers (especially for tris) for the convenience alone.

I've always said that the only true advantage to a tubular setup over an "equivalent" clincher setup is total wheel weight...then again, people vastly overestimate the effect of weight on performance...unless they're constantly climbing 8%+ grades.

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Are you sure about that? IIRC, AFM stuck one tire in his test that used Tufo Extreme Tape. The difference between that tire and the same tire using the improperly glued method was about the same difference between excessively glued/improperly glued method.

Zipp 303 clincher wheelset = 1623 g
Vittoria Open Corsa EVO CX 23 clincher= (2) 210 g = 410 g
Vittoria Ultiralight inner tube: (2)75 g = 150 g
----Total Zipp 303 clincher wheel = 2183 g

Zipp 303 tubular wheelset = 1171 g
Vittoria Corsa EVO CX 23 tubular = (2) 250 = 500 g
---- Total Zipp 303 tubular wheel set = 1671 g

Weight difference between Zipp 303 tubular v.s. Zipp 303 clincher ready to race wheelsets: 512 g

If Contador's FT output is around 6.5 W/kg then half a kilo in a 8%+ grade is... [insert expression]. :-)

Sergio

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Note: English is not my first language. Please read this translated post considering that.

I forgot... And then how important is that 512 g difference on a climb to a 80 kg Cat. 5 cyclist who has an output of only around 2.6 W/kg?

Sergio

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Note: English is not my first language. Please read this translated post considering that.

I have generally only rode clinchers, but after being educated on tubulars, it seems much more liek a preference. Definitely a little more involved with the gluing, but from what I have seen with using a take off as a spare, a tire change is next to nothing.

According to analytic cycling he would save about 11 seconds over a a 10K climb at a gradient average of 5%..........

Kevin