Done.

---

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Holy cow, you're a mind reader. I was honestly thinking this exact same thing the other day but was "afraid" to post it. I don't feel bad for saying this because Tom has the most posts of anyone on this board. Thus, he opens himself up to this. Every day there is some new "product" he's pushing. What really got me was when someone posted a good price on a jacket from someone else's company and Tom posted that he'd match it (or beat it, I can't remember.) I was thinking these posts should be in the classified section. Of course, he often tries to disguise them by the pretext of asking for "opinions" or whatever. Dopey, you're no dope.

Dopey, Your name says it all. Let him inform us! He is the expert! Don't read his posts. He gives more to this forum than almost anybody. Thats the way to have the Christmas spirit! Get over it!

I totally disagree with Toms equipment post being moved to the classified board. Tom provides tons of useful info and we all know he is a bike shop owner - but I have never gained the impression any of his posts are self serving. Tom please reverse and come on home.

---

Graham Wilson
USAT Level III Elite Coach
http://www.thewilsongroup.biz

He's the "self proclaimed expert." It's called "self-stipulation." Just say you're the best and many people think you are. It's like the Fox News Channel repeatedly saying they're "fair and balanced." How do we know they're fair and balanced? Because they say they are.

Screw that! I like Tom's post's about gear. He has hands on stuff I may want. Knowledgable posts about current gear choices are always OK in my book.

Here's an idea...if you don't like them...skip over them. There....problem solved!

---

1*

I completely agree that he provides valuable insight to this forum. I do not intend to stifle his participation here. But, many of his posts are simply to sell product, not to inform or participate in our discussions. All I want is for him to put the triathlon discussion stuff here, the classifieds stuff in the classifieds forum, and the other stuff in the lavender room.

I do have the Christmas spirit, and I think blatant self-promotion is not in tune with it.

P.S. You're right--my name (dopey) does say it all. And you are also right, that I might be taking up too much room on this planet.

Isn't that the administrator's call?

---

__________________________________________________
A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is just putting on its shoes.
- Mark Twain

Yes, that's why I entitled the subject a "petition." I want to see who agrees and who disagrees. And then the administrator can make a call on it.

Tom's posts about gear are great. Let's keep them around. Tom's posts about having a specific item in stock and to PM him if interested are active sales and should be posted in the classifieds like everyone elses.

"...One pair of extensions in carbon remains available and two pairs of alumnium extensions remain available, along with the complete set of Hed bars with the carbon "S" extensions.

PM me if interested."

Tom's posts are a great part of this forum. Nobody is asking that he be treated differently than anybody else. To my knowledge gerard and joshatzipp aren't actively selling on this board (PM me for a great deal...) so I don't think the comparison works.

While Dopey (The name does seem to fit appropriately :) has contributed -0- useful or informative comments to this board Tom has contributed hundreds and his comments and knowledge are one of the reasons this board/forum is so popular.

Dopey you don't have to read Tom's posts (or anyone elses). It's your choice to open it or "not". Just like Gerard's, Frank Day's, Herbert's or anyone else who is in the triathlon or bike industry and posts regularly to this forum.

Keep it up Tom!

Hey, I say let's start a petition that "Dopey" goes to another website forum.

A petition open to the posters is not the administrator's call. If the administrator wants to open it to the posters, it is his job to post a petition. Or perhaps you are the administrator?

---

__________________________________________________
A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is just putting on its shoes.
- Mark Twain

Don't like Tom's equipment posts, don't read. Some of us (most?) do like his writing. He gets to inspect all of the new cool stuff and tell me all about it. I don't have the ability or resources to try out everything like he does ... i like the ability to *live* vicariously, just a wee bit, thru his experiences.

Do I agree with everything he writes? No, of course not. I'm smart enough to evaluate things on my own terms and make up my own mind. And, I don't agree with all of his frame fit theories (for example, see the story about his Colnagos on the Bikesport website), but Tom has *proven* himself to be : 1.) Honest; 2.) Reputable; 3.) Passionate; and, 4.) Correctable. #4 may be the most respectable factor: he doesn't presume to have all the answers and considers what others have to say, changing his opinion when the facts warrant it.

Oh ... he's also a capitalist who makes his living selling expensive stuff that very few of us really *need*. Big freaking deal.

Demerly is good people. And I've never even met the guy!

---

*****
"In case of flood climb to safety"

How about just leaving his stores prices off of his posts? I have never bought something from him, but I take a lot of stock in what he says!

This is one of the worst ideas I've seen on this board (and that's saying something).

We all know Tom promotes his shop on ST, and he even admits that in his signature. But we (or at least most of us, I think) don't mind because we also value his opinions, insights, cutting-edge information and, perhaps most of all, his responsiveness. Some of us might even value his product promotion and offers to match low prices. Even if that is advertising, it is still providing a useful service to the ST tribe. The forum would be a shadow of what it is now without Tom's input. Do I always agree with him? No. But I don't always agree with anyone on the forum.

---

__________________________________________________
What a drag it is getting old. -- Stones

Who says it cannot be my "call" to start a petition here.

I'm not trying to censor anyone. And I agree that Tom contributes a lot. I read his posts, and I will continue to read his posts. He's very knoweldgeable. But many of his posts are simply to sell product. Those belong in classifieds. The rest go here, or to the lavender room.

My prediction is that Tom will back off of the patent efforts to sell product here, and will start with (or perhaps go back to) some more subtle forms of marketing, by just providing some sound advice.

And while I have not been a very frequent poster, I disagree with the notion (not your's CrashingGirl--someone else's) that I have provided nothing to this forum.

(OT: KYROCKET, maybe you could put a few spaces between your signature line and your text? It reads really odd.)

I'm not questioning your right to start a petition. But if you truly have a grievance about the way things are handled here you are better off contacting the administrator.

Going on record here as saying that I have never had a problem with Tom's posts myself. :)

---

__________________________________________________
A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is just putting on its shoes.
- Mark Twain

While Tom can certainly defend himself and does not need me to do so, I feel I must chime in here. You have added little or no value to the board. While Tom on the other hand has added an immeasureable amount of value to the board. He is also the first to admit that he shamelessly "guerilla markets" (hist words, not mine) products here. You do not have read the post nor do you have buy any of the products. As for me I am glad to read about new equipment, clothes, etc. So as far as I am concerned, and it would appear many others as well, Tom's posts about equipment should stay. If it were not for Tom's reply in the post regarding price increases for Zipp wheels I may have not taken advantage of his preseason order and missed out on some savings.

Tom has helped me as with many others on this forum who have had EXPERIENCE or first hand thoughts about gear, training, hotties and whatever comes up, no pun intended to the massage post, but I find it very informative and insightfull. Ive learned more here than ive learned from coaches or groups or my paltry exsistence as a tri dude, I say get back on centerline tom and stay the course.

-

---

_____________________________________________

I have horrible back problems but I have zero problems staying in an aero position for 180k. Why? Because I ride steep and because I train regularly in that position. Simple as that.....Gerard

I think promoting his shop through his presense here is a good thing. Just like others do for their brand: Cervelo, Zipp, Litespeed, PowerCranks, RotorCranks, Softride.... But I can't believe that people don't seem to see the difference between that and "selling" specific products. Maybe you see the difference, but just don't care.

If I, or just about any other poster started a thread about the hot new Vision bars I just got my hands on, plan to sell, and to contact me if you're interested, I'd/they'd get shouted to the classifieds.

I just don't understand the need to fight for the double standard.

First of all, what do my contributions to this forum (or lack thereof) have to do with whether many of Tom's posts belong in "classifieds?" Should everyone ignore your response here based upon whether they think you have contributed sufficiently to this forum?

I have not suggested that all of his posts should be moved. Quite the contrary--he is knowledgeable and I enjoy reading his posts.

All I am suggesting is that the rules (implied or express--I don't know if they're written down anywhere) be followed: that he put the classifieds in the classifieds, the triathlon discussion and advice here, and the other stuff in the lavender room. Period. That's it.

If you want to read classifieds (from Demerly or anyone else), then click on "classifieds." Read them there.

Hey Tom,

Sooner or later the mob was bound to turn on you. It's human nature.

Ciao!

I don't think the mob has turned on him. I think it has turned on me! Yikes!

Tom, please keep posting to the regular forum. I love seeing pics and your impressions of new equipment. If you happen to sell it, that's great. I think it does the readership of the forum big service to hear your opinions and reviews. Meanwhile, I'll keep my fingers crossed that you will weigh a P3 frameset rather than keep saying weight doesn't matter! :-)

Keep on posting.

Dopey,

Now that Tom has complied with your request, I think the classy thing to do would be to delete your original post and let this thread die.

Just my personal opinion since it was directed squarely at Tom.

Pretty simple dopey. You see a thread by Tom D., don't open it. I, on the other hand, look forward to tom's posts. I wish more store owners, bike business people, etc. post with reviews and pictures. I think from reading the other posts, your petition does not stand a chance.

Jim

Tom!!!

No way, brother. Keep that good stuff here where we can all see it. The man asked for a consensus, and as I read the posts most of us think dopey should perform the solo sex act...

I deeply appreciate your contributions, and even the "sales" pitches usually seem to be about new items that some folks are itching to get their hands on. That would include me if I wasn't so damned broke.

Keep on keepin' on.

---

Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
Brought to you by the good folks at Metamucil and Geritol...

As well it should.

I strongly disagree with moving Tom's posts to the classifieds. He posts well thought out opinions and justifies them just as any others. Anything he posts about a product should be treated as such. Personally, his posts are one of the only reasons I visit this forum daily to read it. His "self promotion" is just industry insight from experience and honest opinions, which I happen to value highly on this forum. I know that many others would agree.

It seems that the prevailing attitude is that the classifieds forum is not needed. Correct? I'm reading that the place to sell stuff is here.

I vote for Tom to keep posting here, all in favor say aye. All opposed, go to the Lavendar Room.

Hey dopey, I think Snow White and the other 6 dwarfs, who by the way are slowtwhitch afficionados are gonna kick your ass when they get home, doooooooohhhhhhhhh,

-

---

_____________________________________________

I have horrible back problems but I have zero problems staying in an aero position for 180k. Why? Because I ride steep and because I train regularly in that position. Simple as that.....Gerard

In the interest of holiday cheer, I'm accepting your post as well intentioned. However, Tom is one of the absolute top contributors to this forum in terms of substance - training info, gear, gossip, inside stuff on top athletes - man you name it, Tom has posted it, and it's ALL good.

Yes he sometimes promotes his store, but most of the time he's telling us that some new product that we're all itchin' to see has just hit the shelves, that the new P3 SL is out or something equally newsworthy. On top of that, I think we ALL owe Tom a debt, and if he's got something you're thinking of buying, why not buy from a friend? Since I'm assuming you meant well, I give you my 2¢ worth and please don't take this personally...

---

Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
Brought to you by the good folks at Metamucil and Geritol...

Does anybody read posts? Nobody suggested that Tom stop posting here. Nobody suggested that Tom stop posting reviews here. Nobody suggested that Tom stop offering opinions here. Nobody suggested that Tom stop creating threads here.

Dopey, Sorry for my quick negative response to your post. I see your point. I just think if Tom dropped(didn't list) his prices on stuff then we all could still get the benefit of him and the pics of the new stuff and recommendations he gives.

This may be my third post ever on this forum, but dopey, you're just plain wrong. Forums are good because of good-will among posters. The more the better. I'm new to tris but not to message boards, and let me tell you, Tom adds a ton of good will. I'll even go so far as to say that without his good-will, this board would have been gone long ago.

Y'all are really, really good at flaming (which is why other boards make fun of you), but y'all are really, really good at what you do. Tris. Tom is really good at what he does, seems to give very generously, and in 6 months of lurking, I can't believe you've resorted to attacking one of your most valuable posters. Slowtwitch, thy name is Cannibalism.

Tom, you want a nice board? Check out beginnertriathlete.com. We won't know what the hell you're talking about when you discuss equipment pros and cons, but I double damn guarantee you we are respectful about what we know/don't know, think/don't think.

Dopey, you're a complete idiot. [reply][/reply][reply]

Good point Pooks. I just did a search of Tom's posts for the last few days. They were all in this forum or in the Lavender room. None in classifieds.

If this forum is to sell product, rather that talk tri, then the classifieds forum should be abolished, and all of the posts there should be moved here.

Quite flattering actually.

I have pretty much assumed that Dan would either give me a warning, or just throw me off if he thought my posts were too mercinary and self serving in nature.

So, when he boots me off, you'll know I did wrong.

---

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

"you're a complete idiot"

kkl, excellent contribution to the "good will" of the forum.

kkl--where's the good will in your post?

Me? A complete idiot? I'm an average, ordinary, every day idiot--maybe. But not a complete idiot!

I honestly don't understand why so many people feel the need to respond with personal attacks. I think this position is entirely reasonable, and from what I can glean from Tom's concise reply, so does he.

---

_______________________________________________

Keep it up, and keep the enegy up.

So if I read your post correctly, and I am sure there is room for interpretation there, you are saying that all of the posts regarding equipment, technical clothing, and any product associated post should go to the classifieds. Where are YOU going to draw the line for us and then where does the line move from there. Do you, as others mention, have Gerard only post to the classifieds section, do you have Joshatzipp only post in the classifieds? Where does the line finally end up?

As to the value commment, ok maybe I over stepped my bounds. And that would make me quilty of what I suggesting that you are guilty of, which is where do we draw the line? In this case what constitues value?

So my apologies about the value comment, point taken.

It looks like he just changed his mind.

Tom-

Please don't move your post. I am new to triathlons and have already learned so much, or at least what questions I should be asking, from reading your post. I always thought a bike was a bike and I wasn't built to ride. Due to the many knowledge people here (you being one) I have learned I just need more information. You are a great source of freely given information and I really appreciate it!

I agree with one of the other posters who said if you are going to buy, wouldn't you rather buy from a friend? I know I would! Especially someone who so freely and generously shares what he knows. You have earned our business and the right to promote your business here. It is the least we can do in return.

No, I don't think all of his stuff about equipment, etc. should be moved to classifieds. I don't know where to draw the line. My suggestion is that he use better judgment, and put the right posts in the right forum. That's all.

I was thinking of deleting it, but then he reversed course.

'S all good.

:)

---

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

You clearly did not read the post correctly.

The line is pretty clear - if you're actively selling something, it belongs in the classifieds. Tom's a pretty sharp guy - I am fully confident he could abide by this rule while still creating posts which both inform us as consumers and promote products he is selling in his store.

---

_______________________________________________

Tom,



Simply: Please do not leave. If you are selling something, put it on classified. If you are evaluating something, post it here. I am a big boy and can fend for myself.

I say NO to a petition ICO Tom.

---

Bob Williams

Personally I don't mind Tom's sale's posts, even when he goes over the top. While it may be tacky at times, I think his approach to this board is usually engaged & respectful; that is to say his overt sales pitches & self promotion are relevant to the topic & do not rise to the level of spam (which is where I draw the line).

I can't stand gawdy, tactless self-promotion.

I would agree with Dopey. Some of the recent posts are pretty blatent. Maybe a little more time building up bikes that have already been paid for, instead of posting????

clm

---

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

Your link for Viagra is broken! :(





sea2river, no one is asking Tom to leave. The lack of reading comprehension here astounds me.

---

_______________________________________________

Ok. So take that one step further. Are you suggesting, for example, that the post regarding the s-bends received should have been posted in the classifieds section? I am guessing your answer would be yes. However that means that everyone that asked about when they would be available should have put that requst in the classifieds under WTB by that same logic.

Another example, when Tom started describing the new Transition bags that they just received, does that post also belong in the classfieds or is that a descriptive/informative post? What about the new Easton wheels post, was that a sales post or information post?

Just trying to understand which is which.

>>Simply: Please do not leave.<<

Bob my friend, Dopey didn't say ANYTHING about TD leaving, just a little discretion on SOME of his posts.

This thread makes it obvious that people only read what they want to see.

clm

---

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

Bump, Repeat. Good luck, man!

"people only read what they want to see."

That is pretty true.

And discretion is generally not a part of my skill set.... :)

(anymore)

---

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Dopey...I think if you really want to make any judgement about anyone at least have the balls to do it with your name out there. In your user profile you should say who you are and where you are, don't be such a puss! At least he has his name out there on each and ever post that he does.



Jeff Morrow

---

What the mind can conceive and believe, the body will achieve.

"people only read what they want to see."

What was that about sex?

The post today on the Easton Wheels and the pictures just made we want to buy those wheels in the future. I live in KY so I probably won't buy them from Tom, but I value his professional opinion, when it comes to tri stuff.

Not to hijack this thread, but I can't think of a better place to ask you if got my PM.

"Dopey...I think if you really want to make any judgement about anyone at least have the balls to do it with your name out there. In your user profile you should say who you are and where you are, don't be such a puss! At least he has his name out there on each and ever post that he does. "

The only judgements dopey made about Tom were positive. "Tom Demerly is a smart, knowledgeable person." Ouch.

Why the hostility?

Oh, I have 118 PM's and haven't checked them for a day or two- I'll check it out.

---

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

>>And discretion is generally not a part of my skill set.... :)<<

True, but it's part of what makes you, you. ;-)

clm

---

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

I think when someone says " I have 3 sets of these wheels for $650/pair" that belongs in classifieds.



If Tom says "Look at this cool shit I just got in" and posts a pic of new product that most of us have yet to view, well, i think that's cool. The enevitable question to Tom is usually "How much". I have no issue with Tom posting the prices either, hell, I've asked for 2005 bike prices myself.

He forgot humble and good looking.

---

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

I heard dopey pulled a knife on Tom Demerly!

No, he just said Tom should tone down the commercial aspects of some of his posts

Aww.... people talk so much on this board

I think it's pretty humorous that dopey was just posing a question and he gets attacked. After reading his original post I went and read Tom's latest comment on the Easton wheels before contributing to this topic. I should add I have met Tom, he's super nice in person as he is on this forum....HOWEVER, Tom, I would have to say that comment just may well belong in the classifieds! ;-) Now the rest of you angry people, go grab yourself a glass of wine and relax! :-)

Me personally? I could careless where you post this kind of info., as I usually skim the topics and pick and choose.

That's huge!

---

_______________________________________________

Nope, terrible idea. Tom's equipment posts need to stay here on the general forum. I have never felt like he was trying to sell me anything when I read his posts. I've always thought he was informing the triathlon public about new and innovative bikes and equipment. Realistically, most of us won't be buying stuff from Tom because we don't live in Michigan. I know some people travel to his shop, but most of us don't and won't. Tom's equipment posts actually benefit triathlon retailers across the nation because those of us far removed from Dearborn will read about the new stuff then go and buy it from tri/bike shops in our area.

Tom, keep your equipment posts here until otherwise notified by Dan. After all, it's his forum.

RP

Sorry about that Tom. I had no idea, although I should have guessed, at the magnitude of PM volume you receive. Would it just be better for me to call the store tomorrow?

much agreed -

no slander there - why the hostility - and i certainly would not post my street/name and location on this site - tri shop owners and desperate coaches might start 'mailing/calling/emailing' - "for $350 a month i can help you get a pr...blah blah blah"...

Tom, 3 of those 118 pms are from me regarding the Blade I paid you approx. $6,000 for over ten weeks ago. Will you PLEASE answer my emails? You're a hard guy to get a hold of. As for the other stuff in this thread I don't intend to get involved (since you have both my money and my bike.)

I think Tom will ship! :-)

A friend of mine posted something about looking for a part,boy he was TOLD real quick to take it to the classifed. I know how so many of you feel about Tom,but some just might not feel the same,what ever happened to someone posting whats on there mind?

Possible, sure I may have misread the post. Like I said in a later post all of this is open to intrepretation. Take a look a little lower at the questions I asked about examples. All I am suggesting is that even in the "most blatant" sales post, the s-bends, it was also informative and responsive. How many times have we seen posts where people ask are they available, when will the be available, etc.

Well, I've been working on your bike on and off throughout the day and haven't recieved any e-mails from you today yet.

-Sorry.

Actually, I'm not sure because, until we closed here at 7:00 we were pretty busy fitting a fella from Canada, but your bike may be gone already.

Mike left to get his wife at the airport and I don't see it here anymore. He is in tomorrow at 10:00 AM.

I'll check it out then. I'd call him at home, but he hasn;t seen his wife in a week so I wager a call to him at home right now about bike business may not be welcomed.

---

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

No Kip, I just checked the entire 17th. I have nothing from you Sir. Can you please re-send?

---

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Tom,
Keep up the good work on this part of the forum. Your reviews are detailed and apply to what we are all interested in. Any of the stuff that I have bought that you review/recommended have been pretty much on the mark. I must say that the Tufo clenchers are the best tire I have had, but then I haven't had the years of experience that you do or had the opportunity to test all of the brands. The Fizik saddle is great as are the Speedplay zero's. The Azoto wasn't too bad until the Arione. Since you are on the opposite side of the state, I have only bought the one thing at your store. Seems to me that the "peaceful tribe" has benefited more than you personally. Throw in all of the editorials you put up (even if they are on your web site) and the scale is even more in our favor. I'll put up with a bit of sales for all of the other good things you contribute.

Then again, would it be possible that you are dopey and did this just to stir up some good old fashioned controversy. Sounds like something a SPECWAR guy would do just before he does something really cool! ; )

---

Larry

Don't be afraid to ride too long or too hard. That's what cell phones are for. Rich Strauss

Tom,

Maybe your emails are messed up because I sent them all today. I'll just post here since I know you'll get it. I was asking if you'd send the pictures of the bike you mentioned, if you shipped the bike today and a tracking number. Thanks.

Busy all day working on some guy's bike, or busy all day selling stuff in this forum instead of in "classifieds?"

It's the hostility from people like you that makes me stay safely behind an anonymous user name.

All I did was present my opinion and pose a question. In response, the Peaceful Tribe just escalated to DefCon 2.

Well, I only sent that first set. I went out for a ride for about 20 minutes on it today and then we had to finish a P3Sl for a fella named Darcy coming from LaSalle, Ont. We were running late on that.

Anyway, we did get everything swapped out, I handed the bike over to Mike and said... "This needs to go out today please."

I'll get with him this morning.

FYI- if we are having an e-mail probelm I am unaware of it. Everything on this end seems normal, I just e-mailed you and I did receive quite a substantial volume of normal mail today without any problems.

-let me know if you got my e-mail.

---

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Ironclm, sorry I missed your response. In another board I inhabit, you're known as an IM groupie. Not to be taken seriously. I have no ideas if "they" are right or wrong, but your thoughts are discounted. Sorry.[reply]

Oh, I misunderstood your question- I didn't shoot any more photos of your bike once it was finished- I just handed it off, asked for it to be boxed and moved on to the next bike.

Sorry about that.

---

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

"I don't think the mob has turned on him. I think it has turned on me! Yikes!"

Oh, puleez. You act like you're surprised!?! LOL

You are absolutely entitled to your opinion, but don't act like you're shocked that it's going to get mixed reviews.

For the record, I look forward to Tom's posts. They are informative as well as often entertaining. I think it's cool that he posts pics of new bikes, gear, etc.. If I get something new I'll post a pic of it too. Can't Tom do the same? Of course he can! Now, if he posts a pic of a new set of wheels, with a "for sale" sign hanging on them, then yes... I agree... classifieds. But he hasn't done this.

For a guy who is "swamped" with customer bikes somehow you managed 75 posts in the last 12 hours. Nice work.

I was being somewhat facetious by the mob turning on me comment. I'm not surprised at the negative responses. I expected a spirited debate.

I am surprised at the considerable number of personal attacks. For instance, what does my user name have to do with this? And what do my contributions to this forum (or lack thereof) have to do with it? Why am I a "puss?" There are a bunch of these personal attacks which are really not called for. But I'm a big boy, and I can handle it just fine.

I thought this was supposed to be the "peaceful tribe?" That was Tom D's phrase, wasn't it? I wonder if he thinks it's so peaceful now. If Tom meant it, then he should probably chime in about personal attacks.

I wasn't leveling any personal criticism of him. I just made a suggestion about where certain posts belong.

Disagree with me if you like, but mellow out, people.

Dopey,



Don't worry we are a "PEACEFULL TRIBE" !!!!

---

Luiz Eng

Tom is one of only about 10 true experts who post on this forum. The other 2,000 of us are hacks. Seriously, how many other posters have done real research to back up their claims of the best bike, wheel, handlebar, pedal, riding position, etc. How many posters are professionals in the field? How many other posters participate in this forum every day? Tom is one of a very small handful.

Keep abusing the experts and we are left with the blind leading the blind. Hint: Imagine Triathlete magazine with all sections deleted except letters to the editor. What kind of a read would that be?

I think that we all owe each other the respect of contact through a PM for beefs as opposed to public posts. That goes double for the few professionals who bother to show up here.

-Marc

Yes Sir,

Thank you for asking.

I do not condone any form of personal attack whatsoever- on anyone.

I would strongly favor a trend for people to ammend their profiles to depict their name, contact info, etc. and disclose their commercial interests. The predominant commercial users of this forum have been in voluntary compliance with this for some time.

That said, the likelyhood of some commercial posters operating on this forum under annonymous names may be pretty high. I think Dan busted a couple of them before.

People who post and participate in a non commercial setting have a right to their privacy. That is another bonus to this type of environment: You have a few choices as to how you can participate.

Including my personal info in my profile and posting under my name is done, among other reasons, to increase awareness of my store. But it has also become something else- a way for me to connect with a lot of people I know and call friends. So it is both. As a result I post on a wide range of topics ranging from triathlon equipment to girlfriends and ex girlfriends, politics, hotties, training and other topics. You guys know that.

I don't think it's right to be mean to each other, call names and the like. I know that we are all nicer people than that.

Heck, its the off season, the weather is awful, 2/3rds of us probably haven't had much fun outside for a month so we get to talking about sex, politics and sooner or later we get cranky.

Understandable I guess. No worries though- still a peaceful tribe.

For some reason the movie "The Gods Must Be Crazy" suddenly comes to mind.

---

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

I think you have to take the good with the bad, and if you do have a beef with someone, contact them personally.

"Holy cow, you're a mind reader. I was honestly thinking this exact same thing the other day but was "afraid" to post it. I don't feel bad for saying this because Tom has the most posts of anyone on this board. Thus, he opens himself up to this. Every day there is some new "product" he's pushing. What really got me was when someone posted a good price on a jacket from someone else's company and Tom posted that he'd match it (or beat it, I can't remember.) I was thinking these posts should be in the classified section. Of course, he often tries to disguise them by the pretext of asking for "opinions" or whatever. Dopey, you're no dope."

What really got you... Puuuulease!!! Did it ever occur to you to check the post you referenced. Oh no, that's right. You can't remember. This is almost Slander. Well I do remember the post. I recall that Tom quoted a price on an ASSOS vest or jacket. Surely you remember the blonde modelling it. I recall that someone else jumped in and offered to match Tom's price. You have it backwards pal. Please check your facts first before you bad mouth someone!!!

So Tom offers the deal, and all we get is a lously match. Not even a "will beat it by $10".

I could go on and on about how helpful Tom's advice has been to me while I was a lurker for 3 months befor aI signed up. The guy know his s*#t!

But I won't. Instead I will talk about Tom's self promotion. Let's see, the first time I stumbled on to Tom's website he was "self" promoting Slowtwitch. And am I glad he did!!!

that last one was a reply to "GUY" not LENG. SOrry Leng.

Katytx, TAKE YOUR OWN ADVICE. You don't remember the post as well as you think. It started with someone talking about a great deal on the jacket at another store. Then Tom wrote the following. After that he added "and a free Bikesport hat and our best wishes." Care to apologize?

[/url]
tripoet

Nov 23, 2004, 9:52 AM

Post #1 of 20 (870 views)
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Great Deal on Assos Airblock Jackets Quote | Reply

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Ordered mine on Friday, came USPS on Monday. Doug at Bicycle Hub will set you up with an Assos Airblock jacket at a very reasonable price ($169.00) Check it:

http://bicyclinghub.com/20asaijabl.html

[/url]
Tom Demerly

Nov 23, 2004, 10:02 AM

Post #2 of 20 (853 views)
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Re: Great Deal on Assos Airblock Jackets [tripoet] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

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Wow, that is an excellent price. I guess we better match it. If you order one from us, mention you saw tis post.

Happy Holidays to all my Slowtwitch friends!
http://www.bikesportmichigan.com/
(NOTE: This poster owns a retail business selling triathlon related products).

KatyTX, Here's the whole thread. http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...string=assos;#263128

Still think you're right? Who exactly did I "slander"?

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...string=assos;#263175

Damn! I was wrong. Someone else mentioned the Assos deal. And Tom matched it. Then the someone "started a "bidding" war with the free shipping and Tom mentioned he had free shipping too. So Guy, my apologies. It must have been that Blonde that Tom so cleverly used to market the Assos jacket that made my brain malfunction.

Anyway, it was not some other retailer offering a deal and Tom matching or undercutting. Rather it was a poster here who mentioned another retailer (don't know if he belongs to ST) had a good price and Tom matched.

Had I been in the market, I would have bought from Tom. What's wrong with that. If he matches and gives free valuable advice, why shouldn't I put a few dollars in his pocket.

I am waiting for SuperDave or ZakatZipp (or whoever it is at Zipp - sorry forget your name) to give me a deal to. And what about a Cervelo, I could use a deal there too. I have absolutely no problem with free (yet good) advice and some good deals too!

Guy - I slandered you. I apologize. I got too emotional. Hope you can tell that I was working up my apology before you even posted this (see above)

Apology happily accepted.

But you have to admit I did remeber the Blonde

Heh Heh!

SuperDave is at a volley ball game right now. I just called him. Unlike me, he has a life.

---

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

See what happens when we want to put all thoughts in there own pretty boxes? I gotta idea why not just post shit and reply and fuck sub catagories?

---

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

You kiss your momma with that mouth, Mr. Tibbs?

dopey,

This was funny as hell! It's really the little things that bring me joy!

Thanks,

John

Yep, my kids too. God I love those little shits.

---

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

I love you too Tibbs.

Group hug......

---

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

I wouldn't even visit the forum if Demerly wasn't posting. I doubt he will retire on the profit made on anything sold through this forum. I seem to remember people begging him to start doing some mail order. It is probably more trouble than it is worth. Particularly when you consider all the PM's he gets in a day.

Tell me dopey, do you get as much information from your LBS as you do from Tom?

Does the fact that his posts display that he knows his business enhance his reputation? Sure.

You know Tom's name. hat is yours?

OK, I admit it, I am Gay for Tom.

dopey--Here's to you:

dopey timbit of the Okanagan: stop this nonsense or I will out you again.

Wow! I agree with some of the others in that if you don't like Tom D's posts, don't read them! Simple as that! His contribution to this forum is remarkable, and I only wish his shop wasn't 2000 miles away.

I kinda figued that's what was going on here.

---

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Not sure who this post will reply to, but oh well... I don't post a lot but glean a lot of information from Tom D. and many others here for FREE. With the amount that Tom D. posts, I doubt he gets a return on his efforts - would do better just stumping up some $$$ for a banner ad - is there one for bikesportmichigan - if so, I haven't seen it. He seems like an excited kid, the first willing to put up pics of something cool and describe it for lesser mortals. If that advertising? We all know what place he is from. If he really wanted to milk this site, he'd spend some extra $$$ and add an online store - seems to me he is more interested is spreading some wisdom about cool stuff and just maybe he'll match some prices too. Is that for the classifieds? No, that is for my sweat encrusted javelin I never freaking use any more (but send me an offer - oops, is this now a classified?) Tim - not affiliated to anything much except strong coffee.

I have no idea what this means. Please enlighten me.

If it is about tri related stuff, I have no problem with it. The only thing you need to remember is it is one guys opinion. Everyone has one and it good to hear what other people think. Creates dialogue and makes me re-think my opinions.

Keep em here.

Monk,

I won't take that bait.

Your sexual proclivities aside, please tell me--what does the fact that I choose to remain anonymous have to do with whether certain (not all, but some) of Tom's posts should be in one forum as opposed to another?

I probably do get more advice from Tom than from just about anyone else regarding the sport of triathlon. And it's very good advice. But to get it, I have to sift through a bunch of posts where he's doing nothing but selling. That's not what this forum is for. That's what the classifieds forum is for.

If you read my prior posts in this thread carefully, you'll see that I praise him for his expertise. But your point is a non-sequitur. His advice belongs here. His sales pitches don't. The sales pitches belong on this website, but in a different forum, set up for just that purpose. Otherwise, Pooks is right--abolish the classifieds forum and put all of those posts here.

Sorry, I think Tom is a very key guy to this forum. Anyone with half a brain can deal with his "promotions".

Okay I've been reading through this sudden onslaught of posts and have a few things to agree/disagree with. First, let me reaffirm what a previous poster said:

"Tom has *proven* himself to be : 1.) Honest; 2.) Reputable; 3.) Passionate; and, 4.) Correctable."

Tom is someone I can trust when it comes to most things, especially things triathlon related. He has given so much to this forum, I think he deserves to get whatever comes back to him.

Also, I do agree that, although most everyone on the forum disagrees with the original post, there has been a bit too much hostility floating around. I guess 1) it's the "off" season and people have an excess of aggression from less training and 2) Tom and his advice mean a lot to most of everyone.

Now to comment on Dopey's post. Everyone is free to speak what they will and voice their opinions, but this (below) was just wrong:

"I probably do get more advice from Tom than from just about anyone else regarding the sport of triathlon. And it's very good advice. But to get it, I have to sift through a bunch of posts where he's doing nothing but selling."

You are definately exagerating. Maybe you meant to say that MOST of Tom's posts are full of great advice but OCCASIONALLY you come across some gratuitous self promotion. No biggy.

Nothin' but love in the Peaceful Tribe.

Best wishes,

Adam

---

"How vain it is to sit down to write when you have not stood up to live."
-H.D.Thoreau

Holy cow, $8000 for a bike and $170 for a jacket, that's pretty insane! Maybe instead of names people should be posting their employers in their signatures so I know where to start job hunting!

No, I don't think I'm exaggerating. He's got a lot of sales pitches in this forum. Lots and lots of them. I went through about two weeks of his postings, and there was nothing in classifieds. And I think it's gotten worse lately. Maybe he's pushing it during the holiday season.

A lot of people here are defending Tom's sales posts because they think he's a great guy who's made so many contributions. Isn't that beside the point? ("But officer! Yes, he may have run the red light, but he's a really great guy!")

I just made a quick pass through this entire thread. It looks like 29 posters are against me, 8 are with me (not including me), and 9 were either neutral or too vague to tell. So it's 29-9-9. Shall we call it a draw? (As in The Holy Grail?) Or shall I pull a Nixon and just declare victory and leave?

Dopey,

I think you are wrong. I think Tom's product posts are great and treat them as mini product reviews, FYI's if you will, of new stuff coming out. If I log on and see one of his posts "New wheels etc...." it's the first one I go to. I like checking out the pictures and hearing what he has to say about it. I think he does this forum a favour by posting this stuff. Where else could we see pictures so soon?!.

I think maybe you've overreacted a bit, not had enough sleep or something, feel a bit grumpy because I think you're way off target. Tom always makes it obvious what his posts contain, if you can't figure it out, well, I'm gonna have to agree with some other ST'ers about your name. If you don't appreciate seeing pictures of cool stuff, then simply don't read it. It's that easy. And please don't tell me that Tom's posts take up some much space and you can't find post relating to triathlon. Please. And please don't tell me that your feel an urge to buy buy buy (from his shop) as soon as you read one of his posts. I don't believe that for a second.

I for one don't think Tom's product posts should be moved.

---

------------------------------------------------------------
Searching for the bliss of ultimate exertion.

Wow Tom! A thread that has absolutely nothing to do about me or PowerCranks that has elicited over 100 posts in about 3 hours or so. This may break that PC thread awhile back that got to over 600 posts.

Maybe by my coming on board here and posting something I can get this one to new heights, so I (or PC's) no longer hold the record.

Frank

PS. Oh, and while I have the opportunity, anyone who doesn't know about PowerCranks check them out, www.powercranks.com Perfect gift for yourself (better than a pedicure) and if you post your experience here you can be assured you will get a quick and friendly response!

---

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

I don't have time to sift through all the posts on this thread, so if this has been already stated I apologize but...

How many times have posts been titled: "Hey Tom, when is (fill in the blank) coming in?" - or - "Calling Tom, I need help with _____," - or - "Hey Tom, what's your opinion on______?" All typicaly with prompt replies at even ungodly hours. And why is it we all know when Tom's out of town? Because his posts are sorely missed. I don't ever recall a post stating, "Thank god he's gone for a couple weeks. Finally a break from his constant badgering." Please, if Tom didn't inform us about the latest and greatest in his shop, there's a good many of us who'd be asking.

Keep posting here in the main forum Tom - IMHO you haven't crossed the line. I appreciate your presence here.

Jim Manton - The old fat guy Monex doesn't talk about.

---

Jim Manton / ERO Sports

"And please don't tell me that Tom's posts take up some much space and you can't find post relating to triathlon. Please. And please don't tell me that your feel an urge to buy buy buy (from his shop) as soon as you read one of his posts. I don't believe that for a second."

Nope, callidus, I haven't said any of those things, and I'm not going to.

I have no objections to his posts. They are fine. It's just that many belong in a different forum. Period.

JM3--I don't have a problem with those types of posts. They're no different from someone asking the forum as a whole about a particular product or issue. What I do object to, however, is a substantial number of his posts in this forum which are nothing more than a substitute for paid advertising.

Dan E. has graciously set up the perfect forum for those posts. It's called the "classifieds" forum. They belong there. Or Tom can put them on his own website. Or in both places.

I'm gonna ignore all the personal BS and just state my opinion that I think Tom's posts should stay in the main forum, where I can easily see them (ie - without having to monitor 3 separate areas of this board). :)

---

<If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough>
Get Fitter!
Proud member of the Smartasscrew, MONSTER CLUB
Get your FIX today?

The degree to which people are bashing on Dopey is sad. He's raising a very valid point, which is that when there is a forum devoted entirely to selling shit, why can't Tom put his more commercially inclined posts there? Obviously because they get more eyeballs here, which is fine. Do it if you can, while you can for as long as you can.

What's sad is how quickly this degenerated into a "don't mess with my friend" reaction from a bunch of people here. So what, the classified forum is actually for everyone who isn't a part of the clique to post their ads in?

"God I love those little shits."

Tibbs, you da man!

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"How bad can it be?" - SimpleS

Dopey, Your name says it all. Let him inform us! He is the expert! Don't read his posts. He gives more to this forum than almost anybody. Thats the way to have the Christmas spirit! Get over it!

The only thing I need to add to your post is mt agreement.

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"How bad can it be?" - SimpleS

Tom, congratulations! 128 posts in 8 hours, and at a time when most of the US is asleep! Surely some kind of record. Another interesting stat out of the thread is that out of the 100+ contributors, only Cathy and Dopey want your informercials to go to the classifieds. Personally, if they were posted there I would not be able to pick them out, as I am wasting my time looking for kit in an area where sellers would have to post to the UK.

The only "gripe" I have is that you need to keep clearing your pm's as sometimes I miss you when I see you posting on the forum and then again on pms. ON that vien, have my S bends arrived and been shipped? If so when did they get posted?

---

"How bad can it be?" - SimpleS

I totally agree on this. Even though I don´t care wether Tom post his prices on this forum or not, I think it was a far question by dopey, and the following bashing totally unfair.

Let´s asume every triathlon shop owner would post his sales adds in this forum. Would that be great, or should it be forbidden, then?



Regards



Martin

Tom,

Keep your posts where they are and keep them coming. Moving them to classifieds or anywhere else is a bad example of lowest-common-denominator thinking. I think most ST readers know where you're coming from.

Happy holidays to all!

Paul

I completely disagree that the posts should be moved. I think the classified are designed for selling a specific item at a specific price at a specific time. The majority of Tom's equipment posts are about his overall impression of stuff and I think that adds tremendous value to this forum.

Like many others on this board, I will frequently open up Tom's threads first when checking in.

Throughout this thread I've been appalled at how much people miss the point and how little of the thread people actually read. Nobody has suggested that Tom leave or stop posting on the main forum. It's just been suggested that he post the pitches of specific products in the classified section LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE. Post reviews here. Post opinions here. Post "I've got 6 sets of XYZ to sell, contact me ASAP" in the classified section.

Why is everybody so adamant about having a double standard?

"The majority of Tom's equipment posts are about his overall impression of stuff and I think that adds tremendous value to this forum. "

And those posts should stay here. Nobody has suggested otherwise.

Well, dopey, do you do that under the screen name "dopey"? If not, then to start this thread under a different name than that unde which you regularly post does not speak much for you, and brings discredit on all of the Seven Dwarves. I knew Dopey Dwarf. Dopey Dwarf was a friend of mine. You are no Dopey Dwarf.

My 2cents = I don't have a problem with Tom D. posting/pushing his product on this fourm. Although lately pushing product seems to have increased. I'm sure its a Christmas thing.(Tom, I'm on your side). I too run a successessfull bike/tri shop, have experience, and carry the latest high end stuff.

Many times I read the posts and some guy 1000 miles away is wanting to order a new item that Tom just got in and posted it on the fourm. I think......I've had those in stock for a week. Should I post that I have the item too. Ethicly I could because this is not a Bikesport fourm it is a SlowTwitch fourm.

But, what if I started pushing my wares here. What if 20-30 other shop owners started to do the same.

Do you see where this is going...



Hopefully this doesn't offend anyone.

Shouldn't this be on the petitioning page?

---

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

???

If you were contributing as much as Tom, I wouldn't mnd at all.

OK, I'm getting this at the end (who would have thought that I'd be so damn busy *this* time of year? I just pray that it turns into money!), but personally I never really look at the other forums. Surly I'm not the only one who doesn't frequent them as often (?).

In any case, I don't like how everything is necessarily all divided up...I prefer a forum that is more free flow, where you can choose what threads to visit or not. There are plenty of threads I don't participate in because of subject or whatever.

what's too bad is that now Tom feels that he has to go into classifieds, or would have some kind of delima about where to put a post, instead of just putting it out there for people to choose to/not participate.

I'm not for creating all of these "catagoreys" of topics. It's not that hard...you don't like his threads, don't read them>I read alot of his, but just don't read alot of the ones that are more sales driven. Easy. It's my choice, and everybody's choice. It's a discussion board for pete's sakes...not something that needs to be censored.

kittycat

With all the bashing dopey's received I can understand why he or she would post under a different name, no?

>>If you were contributing as much as Tom, I wouldn't mnd at all<<

Volume = a different standard??????????

That's huge.

clm

---

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

I don't have a problem with Tom, other shops, or myself posting / trying to sell stuff on this fourm. It would only increase my sales.

All I'm saying is - How would everyone that reads this fourm feel if every other post turned into a sales pitch.

Say the word and I'll show all my latest products too.

I like Tom's posts. He's probably the biggest resource for bike related knowledge on this board. He's not *Self-promoting* but rather trying to offer what most of us want - answers to our questions, reviews on gear, and news about products from an industry insider.

Every couple months or so someone wants to change what happens on this board. I guess you're that guy this time. Just don't read a post if you don't like the poster. It's simple.

I'm all about size myself, I mean volume. :-)

Quote:

BOW DOWN TO THE GROUP'S GODS. In every Usenet newsgroup and LISTSERV mailing list there are old, gray heads who have earned the respect of everyone in the group. For example, amongst the subscribers to the list discussing the late American bandleader Stan Kenton are the producer of a Kenton box set and the authors of definitive Kenton biographies and discographies. You are entirely ignorant compared to those people. Never pretend you're anything else. They would dearly love to help you -- to answer a question, help you find a rare record -- but you'll always come out second best in a head-butting contest with them.

Still other group members have earned their status through long service. Friendships have developed over many years, and marriage is not unknown. By commenting abusively to or about one of these gods, you'll earn not only her enmity, but the enmity of all of her friends -- which may be everyone in the group but you!

Dopey I find you guilty of section II article 4 of the rules of Netiquette. I hereby condemn you to a username of infamy & a lifetime of flaming & personal attacks.

---

Maybe we need a Netiquette post?

Read the rules here:

http://www.webreference.com/roadmap/map07.html

I would say that is an accurate assessment except you left out the fact that you are lobbing a few hand grenades yourself. It is for this very reason that you should contact admin about things like this rather than open yourself to a barrage of public opinion. What did you think was gonna happen?

---

__________________________________________________
A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is just putting on its shoes.
- Mark Twain

I've given input/advise on 2-3 items lately. Does that mean I can post about 2-3 of my latest products.

Such as my new Bontrager XXX Carbon Aerobars and Carbon Easton Bullhorn/Aerobar setup and my Easton wheels.

King1

Well if everyone thinks that Tom can do it, then my opinion would be : So can you !

Personally i think it ruins the forum and have noticed that Mr. D's participation has become more and more commercial lately.

But.....i don't post much myself, so my opinion is probably not valued much here. I skip reading Tom's post mostly as i see them as sales ads. Hopefully he is paying Slowman for the sales he gets from this forum.

I read Toms posts...And find them to be very informative because he knows his sh*t. He seems like a very smart business man.

I talked to him for a moment at Interbike...He is a very nice guy.

Pooks. I am all for posting sale items on the classifieds, that's where I posted all of my stuff. However, as I posted earlier I think it becomes extremely difficult to draw the line where something is "for sale" post versus an "infomative/descriptive" post. For example, as I wrote before, when Tom posted that the s-bends were in and he had 16 sets and they were moving fast I can understand how people would think ok put it on the classifieds. But when you take in context all of the people that had been asking when are the s-bends going to be available, on the main forum, I think (again just my opinion) that it is an appropriate place to respond. Thoughts?

WOW!

Nothing like throwing a little gas on the fire to get things going huh?

Dopey, there just isn't enough of an issue to bring to the table. Most everyone posting and reading here has the full realization that they control where they spend their time by virtue of which posts they open. You do too by the way. If you don't want to be left with the idea that someone is promoting a product or service, don't go there. Remember though, you may lose some knowledge along the way.

For you to open one of Tom's posts now would be like me reading the New York Times. I know full well what I will see long before I pick it up. I'm simply reaffirming what I knew would be there. Rarely agree, but I still take a look once in a while to make sure nothing has changed. Never hurts to look. I just don't spend much time there.

You might find greater acceptance to let this one go. And then, either don't open his posts, or go there accepting what you will find.

That's a pretty easy fix rather than trying the banishment route. Makes more friends too.

---

Train hard...race well.
www.jimmishler.com
"Jim, I happen to agree with you" DougStern

It seems Slowman hasn't had a problem with Tom's many differant types of posts on HIS forum.

[quote]I have no objections to his posts. They are fine. It's just that many belong in a different forum. Period.

Let us know when YOUR forum is up and running so we can post over there following your rules and regs. Fair enough?

Jim

"I'm an average, ordinary, every day idiot--maybe. But not a complete idiot!"

Don't give up on yourself...

And great thread, btw. We're at 7 pages and counting, and with no scantily clad maidens to boost readership!!

---

Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
Brought to you by the good folks at Metamucil and Geritol...

If you go to post number 1 in this thread dopey has a valid point- and I'm not agreeing for the sake of agreeing.

My posts are sometimes openly promotional/sales oriented. I do make an effort to preface those posts or write them in such a way that uninterested parties can just read another, non-sales post.

But like everybody does- including me- I think dopey just got sick of the commercials.

I do try to maintain a balance between salesmenship and participation on non-sales oriented threads and posts, not just for balance, but also because (as is obvious by someone who posts with the odd frequency I do) I enjoy being a part of it.

It was interesting that during this debate on this forum I was posting to another forum, Tibb's room next door, on Playboy centerfolds, the war in Iraq and my appearance in Penthouse magazine in May 2002. Not too many people were reading those threads.

So, the dopster has a point. At which point my commercial posts become obnoxious to the greater forumship I will either stop or move them- which would be tough for me since the bulk of my life has to with selling and fiddling with triathlon stuff.

For the record I guess, during the time I was hyping some products I was critical of others too. Anyway, this is a good thread and has certainly been nice to read. For all the people who have expressed appreciation of my posts- thank you. Obviously, I really enjoy doing it.

Have a good 'un!

---

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

You could have wrote this a lot earlier and saved Dopey a lot of grief. Do you enjoy people getting attacked at your expense?





(I'm just busting your balls Tom. I'm in a happy/agressive mood today so pay me no mind.)

---

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

I think Tom said it well. While he was hyping the Easton wheels he was slamming the Tufo tubular clinchers. And he is clearly a participant in this forum on many levels to a nearly addictive point. I don't always agree with what he says, but I find him interesting and worth reading.

I used to participate in another roadie forum which I found very interesting and valuable. Over time, the participants became obsessed with keeping anyone with any kind of commercial agenda out, and with keeping trolls out. Something needed to be done about the trolls, some nasty vicious attacks occurred, but in doing so the baby was thrown out with the bath water. Now the forum is blissfully free of anything even remotely resembling a troll or a commercial post. Unfortunately, the forum is so blissfully free of anything approaching debate or disagreement that it has become a boring social corner for a bunch of people that agree about everything and have the same perspective. This forum gets more posts in five minutes than the other one gets in a day.

The participation of people in the industry adds a huge amount to this forum. As long as they are honest in disclosure and a reasonable happy medium is kept between the overall tone of the forum and their business agenda, I'm all for their feedback and participation.

If this helps them make a buck, so what? Last I remembered, we were living in a capitalist country and pursuit of profit wasn't an evil thing.

And another thing.

That Tom's shameful charitable promotion for buying the 4 Kid's bikes.

(Just kidding Tom - hell it wasn't even your idea)

Let's see, how much did Tom get paid for putting the bikes together, etc. I bet it was a big fat Zero.

Well, I never said anything like that pooks ?! And I don´t think I miss the point when I suggest all salesrelated topics to be moved to the classifieds-forum. It´s just an opinion.



Regards



Martin

Dude! You were in Penthouse? Did it have anything to do with Mr. Tibbs?

Awesome.

---

"How vain it is to sit down to write when you have not stood up to live."
-H.D.Thoreau

When I said that I get a lot of information from him, I didn't mean that I was posing a lot of questions for him or directly communicating with him. All I meant is that I have read many of his excellent posts which contain advice, new product pics, etc., and I generally enjoy them. And, no, I don't have another screen name. Just one. I haven't been a very frequent poster since I registered in February of this year.

To repeat myself for the umpteenth time, I have no objection to his posts. All I'm asking is that the truely commercial sales pitches (which Tom D. acknowledges doing) go to the classifieds forum, which is where should go.

As for the insults about my screen name (and all of the other insults and threats I've received in this thread), is that the best you can do? If you're going to insult me, you've got to dig deep and come up with something really nasty, something which gets under my skin and festers for a while. The insults you all have come up with are just embarrassing--for you, not for me.

Now go away and don't post again until you've come up with an insult that causes me to seek out psychotherapy.

Totally disagree. I think Tom's posts are great and he discloses his position in the industry.

We all benefit greatly from his posting on here. How about you exercise your ability to NOT read his posts?

How do we know you don't work for a competitor and are just trying to stifle his business?

I don't want to stifle his business. I hope his business has a banner year. I have nothing against him, and I don't work for a competitor. I just think that those of his sales pitches which are really classified ads belong in the classifieds forum.

As for "how do I know...," I don't know what to say there. I can't prove a negative. How do I know that you're not him, under another screen name? How do I know that you don't work for him, and are trying to help him get free advertising for his products? How do I know that the sun will come up tomorrow? You can see where that leads.

Democracy is mobocracy. Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds. We do not need or deserve petitions. We need and deserve a philosopher-king who can lay down the law with threat of force to back up her wise commands.... Have a Merry Kim Jong Il Day. :)

"Have a Merry Kim Jong Il Day"

I think this is actually a paid day off over the hill in Berkeley. It replaced the last Holliday for some terrrable "dead white guy".

Dave

NOW THAT IS AN INSULT!! Truly awesome. I was likened to the dictator of North Korea, with a picture and everything! That is going to stick with me for a LONG time. Well done!!

Other ST posters--take note. That's how you insult someone.

Many of you will be pleased to read this. I'm done with this thread. Now that I've received the insult of a lifetime, my work here is complete.

Last night I was drunk, and you all were ugly. But it's morning now, and I've sobered up, but you...well....

Yup, been in Penthouse, well, mentioned in it. May 2002, page 19. And let me tell you, Robin, the writer, is a total fox. I've met with her on four continents in the most unlikely places. She also writes for Soldier of Fortune.

She once invited me to spend the night with her in Dracula's castle, or the ruins of it, in what was Wallachia in what I think is now Romania. It was for a feature she did for Penthouse. Huge mistake. I had (have) a huge crush on Robin. She is a female Robert Capa, Robert Young Pelton type journalist. I admired her edgy writing and perspective and willingness to work for publications others wouldn't touch.

I haven't seen Robin since the Iraqi handshake incident in 2001 after 9/11 when she and I were in Jordan. We shared a Landrover for the rough, dark drive in the middle of the night out to the desert.

She was one of the reporters there to record the moment that Associated Press flashed around the world the following day.

I remember a party in Northern Africa, under a massive, luxurious tent in the Sahara guarded by men in dress uniforms mounted on huge camels. Dancers swirled to exotic music around a huge fire. We ate Middle Eastern delicacies from a huge plate. Robin appears at this party in this black evening gown- on the edge of the Sahara desert. It was long and plunging with little rhinestone spaghetti straps. She had this dramatic eye make-up on. In the desert, at night, around that fire under that huge tent with all that food, music, the smoke... I tell you, it was incredible.

I asked her, "How did you get that gon all the way across this desert My Dear?" She said, "No matter where I am Thomas, I am first a girl..."

Rumor was she smuggled it aboard the Jordanian Super Puma helicopter that flew air cover and reconnaisance for us.

I think I could have married her. She was incredible. She had no interest in me. If I recall correctly that night, she repaired to her enclave with a tall, dashing and swarthy Italian man, years my junior and much more handsome...... Ahhhhhh, Robin.

Thank you. I hadn't though of her in a while. I have photos somewhere. I'll find one and post it. but they don't convey her real beauty, appeal and allure. Not even close....

---

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

And you now you steal from Winston Churchill.

dopey dopey dopey.... 'Tis ironic indeed that the dialectical victor in this thread (assuming your foundational premises are correct) should commit at the last moment such a tyronic blunder. The thrust of my post, and its not-entirely mock frustration with the democratic ideal, was not directed towards you, but rather towards the lack of analytical vigor and democratic spirit evident in several posts contrary to your position... its like a logical fallacy convention in here... But as I have seen nothing particularly egregious in TD's conduct, or perhaps because I missed a blatant "buy stuff here" post by him, I suspect at any rate that your post was nothing but a well-primed and artfully-delivered troll with which to hone your polemical and dialectical prowess? (Similar to the so-called "Frank Day Grenade" (toss and duck)). I'd bet Tibbs's last dollar that you are a lawyer. (No barb intended there either... I am a lawyer, too.) Kool pic of the great leader though, no? Got it from http://www.economist.com/...cfm?story_id=3445136



good quote: Communism was “brought to its knees because nobody wants to wear Bulgarian shoes.” -- PJ O'Rourke.

Have you seen Team America yet? Kim was the funniest damn thing in a long time. Take it as a compliment.

I'm so ronree
So very ronree

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customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

"I remember a party in Northern Africa, under a massive, luxurious tent in the Sahara guarded by men in dress uniforms mounted on huge camels. Dancers swirled to exotic music around a huge fire. We ate Middle Eastern delicacies from a huge plate. Robin appears at this party in this black evening gown- on the edge of the Sahara desert. It was long and plunging with little rhinestone spaghetti straps. She had this dramatic eye make-up on. In the desert, at night, around that fire under that huge tent with all that food, music, the smoke... I tell you, it was incredible."

WTF?!? Where did that come from?!? ... Is this fact or fiction??? Did her dress look anything like this...

Point well taken. Yes, I am a lawyer.

Your message, however, could easily be interpreted as I did. And yes, I agree that my opposition typically lacked a certain sophistication. Hence my post about wanting a real insult.

And now, I won't post to this thread anymore. It's served its purpose.

Kirk out.

Hear, Hear.

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"How bad can it be?" - SimpleS

Tom may be an unapologetic promoter of his ideas and his products, but unless he's offering product X for price Y in this forum I don't think he's outside the lines. The Easton wheels thread was close, but is a new wheel thread more objectionable than a WOODY thread? Good grief....

I support Tom's right to post here. Let's not clutter up the classifieds with what are often new product announcements/discussions. I'd much rather have that stuff here.

Just my .00002 Rupees worth....

-Robert

---

"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank

Ummm, well actually that is pretty close. Her dress was black, the guy she disapperaed with that evening looked a lot like that guy though, and we were down the street from the Casbah (now shit).

Here's robin and I:

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Ah, sorry, this is a terrible hijacking, but here is more of the story:

http://www.actiontom.com/

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Tom,

Please do not stop posting here. What Dopey does not understand is that you willing give advice and product information to everyone, even though the vast majority of the 'used to be peaceful tribe' will never be in southeast Michigan and will never shop at your store. Hell, I live in Michigan(the good part) and have never been in your store, and yet, you have responded to my post questions regarding the Hed bars and disk wheels. Thank you.

You not posting about bike products would be like Tibbs not posting about his dementia. And without that, I do not know how I could get through each day.

Gar Atchison, Petoskey, Michigan

---

"Why do they keep inventing new ways to celebrate mediocrity" -

wow - ok - so that's a true story! what a great memory! I'm not one to give advice on love or anything else for that matter, but I always think its nice to have those amazing memories of stunning perfection - from the location to the music to her hair and the look in her eye - but to have it be just a memory to go back and revisit every once in a while. The here and now is also important, and there is obviously a place for an ongoing relationship, but the present is great despite its imperfection ("warts and all..."). Memories are great because of their perfection....

Man... Why'd you have to bring that up?

I am missin Robin in a big way. What a fox. Damn, she was cool. Never a dull moment with her around.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Is it just me, or was this an incredibly humorous comment?

I completely disagree that the posts should be moved. I think the classified are designed for selling a specific item at a specific price at a specific time. The majority of Tom's equipment posts are about his overall impression of stuff and I think that adds tremendous value to this forum.

EXACTLY!

It's a fair assumtion to make, that EVERYTHING Tom has in his shop is for sale. Tom can't get around that. So, when he ~ as a bike geek ~ gets a new piece of cool "whatever" into the shop, just because he plans on selling this item by putting it on the rack or shelf, should this restrict him from showing it off to other bike geeks whom he knows will appreciate seeing it? No friggin way. Hell, most of the time people are begging him for more info and photo's and the like.

This is not my opinion because Tom is my friend. I do not know Tom. He does not know me.

"that EVERYTHING Tom has in his shop is for sale"

My mermaid is not for sale:

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

If you're going to insult me, you've got to dig deep and come up with something really nasty, something which gets under my skin and festers for a while.

You are short and wear a funny hat.

Yes... sorry... of course, except for the mermaid (and her twin sister).

jesus is this a waste of time. Tom, keep posting as is for the love of god- some people seem to have to much time on their hands.

I generally don't chime in to posts such as this and agree that Tom provides tremendous insight to this forum but have to agree that he's crossed that fine line of self promotion and selling on several occasions. He's not the only culprit though...Frank Day and those Power Crank things are also blatant self promotion.

Take it to the classified room if you want to sell something.

I agree with this. And I know Tom, being an inteligent person, KNOWS when he's crossing the line. Stay behind the yellow line Tom! :-)))

---

-
"Yeah, no one likes a smartass, but we all like stars" - Thom Yorke


smartasscoach.tri-oeiras.com

i consider all the free info you give out adversiting for smartasscoaching, so please take your words to the classified section of this internet domain.

If you're going to insult me, you've got to dig deep and come up with something really nasty, something which gets under my skin and festers for a while.

your father was a hamster and your mother smelled of elderberries.... I wave my private parts at your aunties and I fart in your general direction ... Now go away or I shall taunt you a second time....

I think that the posts by Tom which are, shall I say, a bit over the top, should be moved to the classifieds forum.

Absolutely disagree. 100%. Totally.

I don't think I've seen a single post from Tom in which he was actually selling something, specifically. Lots of posts from him telling us his impressions of products which he happens to sell. There's a big difference. And most of us are highly interested in the products Tom sells.

I can't think of many other posters here who I find more valuable than Demerly. His posts about bikes and other tri equipment are extraordinarily useful, imo.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Demerly stays

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__________________________________________________
Simple Simon
Where's the Fried Chicken??

Thanks for that, Tom. You post the link to your actiontom site, and I get stuck over there for the next hour and a half. Cool. :)

"or busy all day selling stuff in this forum instead of in 'classifieds?' "

Run away, or I shall taunt you yet again, you silly son of an English k-nigget...

I faaahrrrt in your general die-rection...

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Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
Brought to you by the good folks at Metamucil and Geritol...

Martin,

My apologies. The post I made that "responded" to yours was by chance. I just clicked the "reply" that was in front of me. I did not intend to direct my post at you. My bad.

Dave

Agreed on both ... maybe Tom can or should add a forum to his own site.

Maybe more balance is needed. Notice that Tom's posts on gear are always positive? Tom should post about some piece of equipment he doesn't like and doesn't carry in his store. So, Tom, you got any opinion on kickstands for racing bikes? Checked them out lately? Any new carbon 'stands out there? Any white carbon 'stands?

---

Proud member of FISHTWITCH: doing a bit more than fish exercise now.

Dang. She looks fast.

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__________________________________________________
A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is just putting on its shoes.
- Mark Twain

Lay off Tom, dude. Or I'll track you down and go Navy Seal on yo' ass ;-))

Seriously, I think everyone here knows Tom and what he's about. I haven't seen an instance of self-promotion yet, and he lays out info and you can take it for what it's worth.

Also, maybe everybody should keep in mind that he's a highly knowledgeable source on bikes etc. and should thank him, and patronize him as a way of thanking him, for answering all of our doofus questions like he does.

Tony

My opinion should count for nothing, as, basically, I'm a non-entity on this board. I've never done a tri, but hope to next year. Occasionally, I try to "contribute" with some attempts at humor.

Nevertheless, I'm not stupid. I know Demerly owns a bike shop, and don't think he has come within seven or eight miles of crossing any line. If he ever does (which I doubt), then I'll reevaluate.

When I see his name on a post, I try and read, knowing that I'll enjoy and/or learn something from the post. Some day I hope to venture north from Cincinnati and buy my first tri bike from him. Until then, I'll enjoy his posts, and wish I had volunteered to edit his editorials, as, obviously, I am the William F. Buckley of Slowtwitch.

(How I hope I haven't made a mistake above.)

"I am surprised at the considerable number of personal attacks."
- - Personal attacks suck. Anyone who makes personal attacks is a dickless twerp and I will personally volunteer to beat them senseless. Yeah, I'll show you a personal attack...

"I thought this was supposed to be the 'peaceful tribe?' "
- - Peaceful? Nah, that's just a front. It's wintertime and most of these guys haven't had nearly enough riding time to burn off their negative vibes. Come February, it could get really ugly...

The thread is at 8 pages and growing - I love it.

---

Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
Brought to you by the good folks at Metamucil and Geritol...

"Shouldn't this be on the petitioning page?"

Right on, bro'

We need a Dopey's Chartreuse Petitioning Forum. Everything in the way of petitions should go there...

---

Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
Brought to you by the good folks at Metamucil and Geritol...

"We Don't Rent Pigs"Dude! One of the Hat Creek Cattle Company, eh?

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__________________________________________________
A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is just putting on its shoes.
- Mark Twain

Why haven't you done a tri yet? Where do ya live? Do you like pie? What kind? Do I look fat in this dress? Why did God kill daddy? Why is the sky blue? Why does santa hate Jewish kids?

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customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

I'm very late getting to this thread, but I agree with the basic sentiment of Robert Preston (and others) -- Tom's in Michigan, I'm about 500 miles away, and he sure isn't selling to me. HOWEVER, next time I'm in Michigan I will make it a point to stop by his shop, and it has crossed my mind to maybe try to mail-order from him. He is knowledgeable and highly committed, and his advice (well, not his political advice :o) is very much appreciated. He's given a huge amount to this forum in any number of ways, and I would not think twice about supporting him by buying from him.

"is that the best you can do?"

Your mother was a hamster, and your father smelt of elderberries!

My father used to say that someone wanted to piss him off that it was going to take serious effort. He said the only thing that would really make him mad was for another guy to take fresh dogshit, chew it into a fine mush, and spit it in his face...

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Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
Brought to you by the good folks at Metamucil and Geritol...

As Augustus McCrae would say, "I'd risk a few nags for the opportunity of shooting at an educated man for a change."

How that is responsive to your question, I have no idea. However, I always found it to be humorous.

Uva Uvam Vivendo Varia Fit

1. Right now I'm at the United Nations, trying to get to the bottom of this Oil for Food thing. Then, I plan on curing cellulite. Then, I'm starring in a movie with Paris Hilton. Then tri.

2. Cincinnati

3. Yes.

4. Pumpkin. Pecan. Cherry.

5. Only in my fantasies ...

6. Daddy was a bad, bad man. And he deserved it.

7. I think Neil Young asks the same question in "I Am a Child." I expect more from you than copying my hero, Neil.

8. Uhhhhh, I think you already know the answer to that one. If not, ask Mel Gibson.

> Do you like pie?

Pie?

Damn' you and that dessert tray you're wheelin' by my table. I want strawberry-rhubarb pie *so bad* ...

Dre'

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-----------
...

I can't decide if most of the people responding to this thread are not really reading it or if they just don't understand what you(Pooks) and others have been trying to say. The way dopey's been attacked is disgraceful. Now, I don't agree with dopey that Tom's informative posts about wheels, bars, etc...should be in the classified section. Those should stay here. Sure, they help him sell product but they also help other retailers sell product(and there are many here, most are just not as visible as Tom). They also give slowtwitchers(consumers) the info they crave. ~98% of Tom's posts should stay here. I like Tom and enjoy his posts, but there have been times when they belonged in the classifieds. Certainly some posters "get it" and understand the difference(btw, I think Tom is one of them).

I don't think the situation is bad enough to truly warrant any major changes. Tom doesn't cross the line very often. Ultimately this thread will probably either make Tom (and others)think twice about an occasional post or cause the other retailers that are here to start selling their wares here a bit more frequently. If that happened and it got out of hand, I'm guessing those posts would wind up in the classifieds.

Have you ever read one of his reviews and benefited from it?t

Dopey,

I feel your pain. I saw this thread coming a long time ago. It's not the first time this has come up anyway. Too late though. The kool-aid has been consumed. Michigan Bike Sports is the official retail tri-gear sponsor of ST. At the princely some of.... FREE! No, wait. 8,000+ posts! I beleive Tom to be an honorable and execeptional human being, basically. But the fact of the matter is he posts as a businnessman first, a triathlete second. If the majority endorses that, fine by me. The question remains though, how many others post on this board who own/work for a tri-gear shop who don't advertise it? What do other tri-retailers think about this? This board is supposed to be a place for triathletes not businessmen. Tom, why don't you just pony-up and buy a banner ad? Start submitting your material to the mags? It's time. I'm sorry. But there have been times when I've felt used by you.

V

In Reply To

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But there have been times when I've felt used by you.





V-

You said used but I think you meant manipulated (: to change by unfair means so as to serve one's purpose). I disagree. I vote to keep Tom’s posts on this forum. I do not want to go to another forum to see opinions on products. I have learned a lot from this forum and I enjoy it because I can read which posts I want to read. I like reading the most current posts so I enjoy how this forum is set up. I also learn a lot from the Gordo forum, but this forum provides more interesting information.

As someone said, we are adults here. I have not gone out and bought Easton wheels because someone posted a positive review of them. I did learn more about wheels from the post and I feel the same about the other posts. I use the information and I make a choice based on all the information.

Jeremy

you are going to fit in just fine here....good stuff

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----------------------------------------------------
Striving to have sex more than 66 times per year

I have been visiting this excellent Forum for a while now.
Never signed up though...it wasn't a need for me..Until now!
Tom Demerly is why I use this forum.
Yes- he can be opinionated, I don't even agree with a lot of his thoughts,..BUT....GEEZ!! The guy has been doing Tri's and IM's for so many decades ,and he is around the best and newest 24/7....what more can you ask for?.
So unless anyone can offer as much wealth in first-hand knowledge, I say stick around Tom!!!,,and to quote Tom Demerly..
"That's just Dck in the Dirt lame"!

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_______________________________________________________

Seeing him in deep torment, I said. " You can have my last GU , but its been down my pants for most of the run". - John Hirsch

Take care of your body, its by far the coolest thing you're going to ever own.- Can't remember who told me this, but I love it.

For Sale...

Guru Crono'Alu - 2000.00
Hed Stinger Wheels - 425.00 each
QR Full Wetsuit - 225.00

I would far more like to know what the latest gear Tom has in his store rather than the posters other than Tom who take advantage of his frequency on the board:

1. They use the forum to coordinate a cross country bike fit. "Hey Tom - did you get my PM?" "Hey Tom - can you send me a picture of my bike?" "Hey Tom, how does Tuesday at 4 sound?". These are the posts that dont belong on the forum, not Tom's.

2. They direct a question to him or a select few others, as everyone else obviously lacks any insight. "? for Tom D, Slowman or Bunnyman" is always the header, and you are bound to get either 700 vs 650 thread, or some other rehash that a topical search would have given hours of reading.

Tom always replies quickly and politely, when many of us would not. If Tom made a sale on some Easton wheels (while giving all of us a picture to look at) its a foot fault at worst. I'd much rather know the new happenings in the Cervelo or Felt product lines than the OT stuff that is otherwise posted.

I think $1769 for a set of 606's is a great deal!

I tried working retail and dealing with consumers directly. I found I was unable to do so and be profitable for the amount of time invested.

If you are looking for a deal, check the classified page :)

-SD

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https://www.kickstarter.com/...bike-for-the-new-era

Another of my favorites from the old Ranger: "It ain't much of a crime to wack a surly bartender".

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__________________________________________________
A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is just putting on its shoes.
- Mark Twain

I wasn't castng a vote either way regarding Tom's posts. Like I said, posters to this forum will decide what happens. But I stilll maintain, there's an inherent lack of integrity in the way Tom approaches the use of this of this board on some levels, irrespective of all/most of his fine contributions. As I suggested, what he should do to clear it up is support this site FINANCIALLY by advertising. He's promoting himself gratis via this board and it doesn't make a damn bit of difference how good a guy he is or how knowledgable.

Also, I think it tells you a lot when someone remarks that they want to keep Tom because of all his "experience" in tri. From what I can see, most of tri-related posts are product-related, and have little to do with improving performance from a physiological standpoint. Personally, I'd like to see someone like a Dave Scott or Mark Allen, or someone like that come into this forum. Why don't they? Bikes and cranks and wheels are all fine and dandy. But at the end of the day it doesn't mean shit if you're haven't put in the time to train yourself (physically) to be the best you can be.

But hey, having a site that revolves around gear reviews and retail market trends has it's place to, I guess.

Gotta call it like I see it!

Vishkid--With all due respect, if Tom's posting results in increased "hits" he is generating revenue for board. If you look at the "views" generated by threads Tom has started, let alone all of the responses generated by his responses to threads started by others, I'm sure it would be big number.The guys who buy banner ads are hoping that something will generate hits--nobody hits the forum to see the banner ads. I'll admit I am not real knowledgeable about how E-business works. Also, I must assume that is the Board owner had a problem with it, he would probably give Tom a call.

With all love,

No worries, Monk. Thanks for response. But I don't see how Tom's threads are generating revenue for the board. I must be missing something (I'm no e-commerce expert myself). Unless, of course, you mean by Slowman increasing his ad rates. That's not really my point anyway. Tom clearly reaps a commercial benefit from this board. He should reciprocate in kind. Not only is that fair from a business standpoint, but it also solves this dilemma of some people seeing Tom as someone who exploits the board for his personal financial gain. It's very clear that Tom makes a certain segment of visitors uncomfortable with the way he comports himself on this board. This is not the first time this has come up. I say address the issue for all concerned. This would serve to build participation instead of having an exclusionary effect with people taking sides or leaving. You're right about one thing. If Slowman doesn't give a crap, it's a mute point anyway.

Love back at ya. And love to you too, Tom, for all you do.

V

As you can tell, web forums like this become pretty big validators for people's ego's/self image. Reasonableness (as was your post) is not the prime consideration, nor is basic courtesy (as evidenced by many of the responses). Rather most every anonymous forum gets taken over by a few people who tend to gain satisfaction by using the words "I" or "me", or making personal attacks which would marginalize them in the normal course of adult interactions.

Some "Peaceful Tribe", huh?

I totally disagree! I appreciate Tom's post and the cool stuff he shows us. Please dont scare Tom away!

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-----------------------:)
SUPPORT OPERATION REBOUND:
http://www.operationreboundcalifornia.kintera.org/ejs3

Kestrel Syndicate
Macca Fan Club

No shit...More like a peaceful cult. Suggestions get made on how to make the forum better and if the "tribe" doesn't agree they hold a ceremony and vote him out.

In addition, we have to wade through tons of posts of the tribes conversations in the tri forum about Xmas parties and what someone is listening to in order to find any relevant conversation relating to triathlon.

But I take comfort in the fact that I now know the housing prices in San Diego, that someone is in love with a mermaid, how old people are, and how to negotiate a salary...All in a triathlon forum!!!

However, never...ever...post politics in the triathlon forum...It isn't triathlon related.

You didn't respond at all to my last post about many, many folks putting commercially-related or themed posts on this forum.

And your comments are generally valid, but let's live in the real world. This not, by any stretch of the imagination, a non-commercial forum. Heck, one of the main themes of this forum is the consumption of manufactured products!

Also, you wrote, "Tom clearly reaps a commercial benefit from this board. He should reciprocate in kind." But doesn't he already do that? He gives his opinion and advice on various bike and non bike-related themes. He guides newbies. That seems like reasonable reciprocation to the limited commercial benefit he gains, no?

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Where would you want to swim ?

Where did you come from? Why dont you just go away? Why dont you go to the imawhinerandatrolltriforum.com. Tom contributes alot to this forum, why dont you do the same and stop being so distructive and negative? Seriously, get a life!

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-----------------------:)
SUPPORT OPERATION REBOUND:
http://www.operationreboundcalifornia.kintera.org/ejs3

Kestrel Syndicate
Macca Fan Club

This whole thread is funny. I think Tom D put it best in a post on an earlier thread.

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...a%20marketer;#245005

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Re: Could this forum be split into different sections?

This is an interesting idea. I thought about that too- Maybe one section about "equipment" that contains messages relevant to gear that is populated by us gearheads and those guerilla marketers such as myself, Paul, Gerard, Herbert- basically anyone with something to sell. Us guys woud be limited to our "commercial" posts in that section only. That way, people who just want training tips, race reports and non-commercial content can go to a non-commercial "No Marketing" page. Guys like me could still post there, but not about our commercial interests- only the sport.

I have often wondered if readers may appreciate that.

On the other hand, part of the reason I like this forum so much as opposed to the others is that it moves and evolves fast, the format is (in my opinion) very easy to use and scan through quickly and it is esy to post to quickly. Also, I am used to using it so there is a lot of comfort to it. All my friends are here too.

There are good arguments to keep it the same, and equally good arguments to make some additional changes as it grows. Ultimately, it's all up to Dan I suppose.

I do like it the way it is though. It is simple.

Happy Holidays to all my Slowtwitch friends!

http://www.bikesportmichigan.com/
(NOTE: This poster owns a retail business selling triathlon related products).

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Now I have to get back to work.

Man I think the cold weather and holidays are getting to people:)

As for Tom's posts, here is how I see it, if Tom posts something that has information, review or some insight then it is fine here. If the post is just I got a shipment of ______ check them out they are x$ that shouldn't.

I just find it a bit strange anyone is upset that someone who contirbutes so much to the sport and the board is being called out for talking about what he sells. How may bike shop owners does the average STer know that they can get this kind of insight?

I can't figure out why some STers have such a hard time deciding what to read, if you don't want to read Tom's post then look at one of the other 20,000 posts. (Ya know all his posts have his name on them so you can skip them real easy:)

As for Tom's posts, here is how I see it, if Tom posts something that has information, review or some insight then it is fine here. If the post is just I got a shipment of ______ check them out they are x$ that shouldn't.

Exactly.

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I don't think it is realistic to expect a person (Tom and the many, many other industry insiders) whose job, hobby, and sport and all appear to coincide to be able to completely separate the commercial and non-commercial aspects of his opinions, insights, etc. on this forum. And folks will be nitpicking his judgement of what belongs where endlessly.

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Where would you want to swim ?

I don't think it would be difficult for them to differentiate whether they're making a sales pitch or an honest product review.

I respectfully disagree--I think a very good sales pitch of an excellent product sounds much like an honest product review.

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Where would you want to swim ?

And then another issue: what about all the other folks here (and there are many, many of them) who have other commercial interests within or related to tri or cycling?

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Where would you want to swim ?

They may post here all they want...under the correct forum...the "classifieds" section is perfect for them to beat each other senseless over reviews of bikes and price.

Seconded



I find Tom's opinions valuable and not a sales pitch.

Consider this a Vote against your petition -- Tom should be left alone.

Tom is one of the most important contributors to this forum. I would suggest that shis posts stay where they are, as he has given a great deal to this forum and to its many members.

You, on the other hand ...

mp

Tom, I would appreciate you continuing to post here. If I choose to read it fine, as nonone is twisting my arm to do so or buy from you. I value your input and feel your contributions worthy of reading.

The irony of course is that this is exactly the position of the petition.

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Here's a novel idea...

Perhaps if anyone has a problem with one of Tom's (or whomever's) posts, you should mention it to Dan (Slowman) in a private message. Dan, as forum moderator, can then make the decision as to whether Tom's (or whomever's) is inappropriately placed, and take whatever action he sees fit. Clearly, repeated abuses could and should be nhandle by Dan.

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Steve Perkins

Dan is too busy with his life answering emails by forum members. This isn't romper room. People should have sense enough to know where their posts go in the existing forum structure. If you want to talk about triathlon, put it there...wanna sell something...classifieds...anything else...Lavender room.

agreed. reading a "review" of a product and being told the list price is, to me, informative and keeps me aware of what is available - that my pos lbs is not ordering! i especially appreciated the easton wheels post ... it's really good to know that there are race wheels that i can buy that aren't going to set me back a down payment on a house.

people leaving voicemail on the forum is just a waste of my time.

i also agree that people on this forum are either failing reading comprehension or choosing not to respond to the initial post's topic.

SAVE TOM

Well.. It seems to me that Dan has made other decisions about the forum (which is his prerogative to do), and he clearly cares about the forum experience, so I can't imagine he wouldn't want to hear about things that members might dislike about the forum. Futhermore, what goes on the forum and where is ultimately his say.

I don't know Dan personally, but I would imagine that he does, in fact, read emails and/or PMs from members and genuinely cares what goes on in this forum. So... perhaps we should leave it to him to make the decision.

Frankly, I don't know what you guys are so upset about. It seems that blatant "I have this to sell" posts belong in the Classifieds section, yes. However, the posts of Tom's that people seem to be criticizing are, in fact, reviews of products. If Tom's going to take the time to write a review, and tell us what he likes and dislikes about it, then I don't begrudge him the sentence or two mentioning his bike shop and/or that he carries the mentioned item at $X (which I don't recall him ever doing, although I could be wrong.) Tom's a bike shop owner. He has to market himself and his shop in order to compete. He could merely post "I have this for sale" posts, but instead chooses to provide good, additional information above and beyond the marketing copy written by the manufacturers. I appreciate that, and consider it highly relevant to the triathlon forum.

Tom: Please keep posting in the Tri forum. I rarely go to the Classifieds, and I personally would like to continue reading your reviews.

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Steve Perkins