All swimmers I think remember those days as hell. But in all honesty, when I look back at those practices, they were really hard, but they made me stronger both mentally and physically (it must be the reason I enjoy putting myself through misery all these years later). I understand you worry about burnout, but try to encourage him to go and have fun-healthy competition. I can remember having practices where I hated being there, from the moment the carpool started until I went to bed, but today what I remember are the practices where I surprised myself on how good I could be. Make him go, you'll know when it's been too much.

I do remember surviving such workouts fondly from college and high school, but eight years old seems a little young to me for "hell weeks".

Yes, I have memories of this kind of thing--bad memories. 3 a days when in college. IMHO, 8 years old is way too young to start doing this kind of stuff unless you are pushing your kid to a shot at the Olympics. Even then, I think it is too young--an 8 y/o might think they want to be in the Olympics, but they really don't have the mental capacity at that age to understand that kind of committment. I knew a lot of kids who were amazing swimmers, but were burnt out and hated their parents by the time they were 14-15 b/c of this kind of pressure. So, I say, let the kid do it, but if he wants to skip a workout or two, let him. If he doesn't get the T-shirt--so what?

What kind of distance/ time are we talking about?

Deke

14th birthday - 100 x 100's and every 10th 100 the next 100 was butterfly.

Every second weekend was club weekend where we would double up from Friday thru to Monday, some weeks we would even stay Friday and Saturday night at the pool, like a big sleep over.

I didn't have parents so it was my choice to go and I loved it and regret when I left to play with motocross. I think if they know they have the choice to stop and its not a failure then sure why not.

Remeber its often the parents who are more likely to get caught up in it than the kids.

Alright, I understand the age thing, but how hard is it really going to be for an 8 y/o? It should be hard, not ridiculously hard...find out how many yards they will be putting in. For that age group, I wouldn't think they'd do more than 3k a practice...you never know, regardless of his age, he might enjoy it.

The days leading up to Christmas training were always a mixture of anticipation and dread- you knew it was going to hurt, but it was exciting to challenge yourself and discover you could do things you never thought you could handle. I look back now, and say "gee that was fun"

Encourage him- tell him you're proud of how hard he's working in the pool. Bring cookies or treats for after practice- he's earned the sugar.

Having said that, with the 8 & unders, I really hope the coach is structuring it more as a mental challenge than some sort of huge physical challenges for kids that young. IMO, no need to be giving kids insane interval anaerobic threshold workouts until they're getting close to hitting puberty. 10 & unders should be mostly sprint skills, starts and turns, confidence-building, and general stroke development.

Sorry, not a swimmer, but to me, "torture", "8 years old", and "holidays" don't go too well in the same sentence. Consider getting an Exercise Physiology text from a college library - there are several books that I've seen which deal w/ kids specifically.

How does he feel about it?

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Josef
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i think it all depends on what the workouts are. applying the name 'ten days of torture' sounds bad but if an 8 yr old normally does 1500 yds per practice i doubt the coach will be going up to 6000 yds of practice. if youre really concerned find out what the practices exactly consist of before getting all nervous. as long as the coach has a brain the practices will be tough but only relative to what the kids have been experiencing already. it may not necessarily be anything other than difficult, but its all relative.

The practices are 1hr15min, 4x/week (thus, the 10 days will take 2.5 weeks over the holidays) and the yardage will be approx. 3000 - 4000. I've watched him and the kids in his lane swim 20 repeats of 50s on 1:15 (scy) and they do a lot of 75 repeats - I'm guessing the interval distances will be upped. Right now his 25/50 scy times are 16:5/36.0 - free; 19.5/41.0 - back; 23.5/50.0 - breast; 17.5/40.0 - fly; and his 200IM time was 3:15. Right now he loves it, does well at the meets and prides himself as a "swimmer" - since he was blessed with his dad's LH dribble ability (none!) that's a good thing.

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kangaroo -- please do not read or respond to any of my posts

I wouldn't be surprised if most of the kids are moderately /easily capable of the extra workouts and they are titled the way they are to give the kids a mental boost a la "I survived the hardest 10 days ever. I can do anything."



I say go for it if he wants to, and then monitor closely for signs of wear, depression, anxiety, or burnout. I remember doing some dumb things at that age just to get bragging rights from my peers, and if I could go back I'd do it all over again.

I don't think those are wildly crazy distances - as long as he likes it. I was an elite swimmer in my time ('80s and '90s) and it did seem like it helped to have done some mileage as a kid. Why do you think TI is so successful? - it's almost impossible to be a great swimmer unless you did this stuff as a kid. If someone's making him do it, and he hates it, that's a whole differrent deal. Swimming is not like running; you don't turn your body into dust with mileage, it just can make you hate it.

Deke

I remember 12km days when I was 11 and 12. 6km in the morning and 6km in the evening during the height of what I now know to be the "volume" phase.

I don't think I was conscious of not liking it at the time but as soon as I went away to school and could make my own decisions, I stopped swimming. Took me a long time to get back into enjoying swimming.

Not sure how direct the connection is though. I could have just gotten lazy. To be honest, those base miles have stood me in good stead as an adult so I shouldn't complain too much. I don't have to put in as much time as others into the swimming leg

Did a Christmas camp every year from age 6 to 22. Lots of training but lots of fun too. Usually would do some really difficult sets mixed in with some fun sets. These are chances to put in some miles but it is also a team building thing. I wouldn't take the name too seriously - probably tongue in cheek by the coach. I am now in my 30's and was planning on doing one on my own this year (partially as I will be visiting the in-laws and it is a good excuse to stay out of the house and out of trouble).

You kid will be exhausted, but it as long as they aren't doing lots of weights or non-age appropriate stuff, he will probably remember it fondly. Especially if he gets a shirt. I lived for every prize I could get when I was that age, actually, still do... :).

As long as you have some level of faith in the coach, shouldn't be a problem. If you are really concerned, talk to some of the other parents who were there last year.

Remind him about the shirt... Bragging rights at school.

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"which is like watching one of your buddies announce that he's quitting booze and cigarettes, switching to a Vegan diet and training for triathalons ... but he's going to keep snorting heroin." Bill Simmons, ESPN

I wouldn't take the name too seriously - probably tongue in cheek by the coach.

You're right on there - from what I've seen, these kids are pumped for the challenge. Surviving "torture" as an 8yo can seem like quite an accomplishment.

As long as you have some level of faith in the coach, shouldn't be a problem.

Thanks, this team is well-established and well-coached.

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To all, thanks for all of the thoughts posted by the swimmers out there. Tonight begins the "torture test" - we'll see how it goes!

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kangaroo -- please do not read or respond to any of my posts

I remember torture workouts over the holidays in high school, college and master's workouts. That said, I don't think that 8 yr old children should be informed that their workouts are intended as torture. I also question large doses of yardage at this point. The key to great swimming is technique not distance. Having young kids repeat poor form for long distances is only engraining poor swimming technique. In addition. young kids' technique break down rather quickly.

I would question the coach and possibly look into a new program if this coach believes that at age 8 kids need to be doing a lot of yardage and a lot of threshold work.

Christmas training was always hell....and I couldn't wait! I loved it. BIG time braggin rights, especially in college. (wimpy sprinters are easy pickings for the distance boys!) Great team bonding, great mental and physical toughness....and probable a little much for an 8 years old. Make sure there isn't a lot of weights and/or dryland. And not HUGE yardage either. Other then that, he will have a blast!

-bcreager

The other thing. A lot of times the whole team swims more at the same time. Versus normally when the big kids swim separately. It is a big thrill for the 8 year old to 'do the same workout as the big kids' (note the quotes, obviously set would be adjusted, perception is often more important than reality in this case). I found this is when I got most of my role models, I would see a guy 6 or 7 years older than me just working his butt off and swimming what seemed to me to be really fast times, I would decide that I wanted to be like him when I grew up.

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"which is like watching one of your buddies announce that he's quitting booze and cigarettes, switching to a Vegan diet and training for triathalons ... but he's going to keep snorting heroin." Bill Simmons, ESPN

8 years old seems like a little young to be swimming anything remotely entitled torture. That being said, 4 days a week isnt too bad.

I just don't understand why swim coaches feel the need to ramp up the yardage to kids under 13. I feel like before 13 the only important thing in the pool is technique. I wish my team had been a "technique" team when I was small, it would've made my HS and College swimming so much easier.

Let your kid swim the "torture" week, but if you start hearing "this is boring, this is stupid" etc, I would yank him out of practice and let him play basketball or baseball or go running or something else.

I didn't swim year round till I was 10. I know a lot of people that didn't start year round swimming till they were in HS. Olympic Gold Medalist Rachel Komisarz started swimming year round when she was 16. She is now 1:58 in the long course 200free, 58 in the long course 100fly, and sub 16min in the short course mile.

I don't think a hell week when you're 8 years old will improve your swimming ability later in life.

Totally agree with Kuendig. Too few coaches teach technique and drills to get kids swimming correctly. Any idiot with a clipboard can tell you to swim more laps and write a "torture" practice.

as a swim coach, i say this is Absolutely NOT appropriate for an eight year old...they need to be focusing on technique, technique, technique with a foundation in learning how to train aerobically. No need to start training like that for at least two years...doubles starting at around age ten is the earliest i'd recommend. it makes sense to train little ones a bit more around the holidays, but big workouts aren't the way to go at this age in my book.

I'd be interested to know what you consider (as a coach) a "big workout" for an 8yo - times per week/length (time) of practice/yardage/interval sets?

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kangaroo -- please do not read or respond to any of my posts

I agree. I didn't start lifing weights and swimming more then twice a day until I was 14 (club rules). Sounds like it is going to be stretched out over a longer period though (2 weeks). Are they doing more then one workout a day? Working out 7 days a week? If so, definetly too much. I think if they are stretching it out a bit, and if the coach knows what he is doing (not all do, will he know when the swimmer are broken down and need a recovery workout) then it should be ok!

-bcreager

I don't think he's talking about doubles - the post above says 4 w/o per week.

Deke

But as long as he is enjoying it, I guess it is okay. But I'd closely monitor him and the instant he says he's tired, bored, it's too hard, etc, I'd let him opt out of a workout. The hardest thing us Type A triathlete parents have to do is let our kids be kids and not push our training values onto them at too early an age.

I swam off/on for 14 years and quit for a year when I was 12 because of burnout. I eventually came back to the sport for a few years until I was 15, then quit again for another year, before starting again at 16. I think part of why I kept taking "breaks" is because I was swimming at a high level and being pushed into two-a-days, etc at a fairly young age.

Of course, for what it's worth, I also made two olympic trials and have a couple gold national championship relay medals. But I think that is mostly attibutable to having a really good/inspirational coach my final year in HS and first year in college.

When we got into the longer workouts when I was on swim team I would go to the bathroom a little more often to catch my breath, sometimes I would let a slower swimmer in front of me and if we had to do backstroke there was nothing like grabbing a lane line for a little help.

Mike

LOL, I loved the lane line trick, great propulsion going into the turn.

From my days coaching I can remember the hell weeks (ain't fun for the coaches thats for sure) and I remember us having extra practices for the little kids but nothing like the seniors. Maybe the little ones added three practices per week say a M,W,Th am in addition to the M-Th PM and Sat.

The seniors on the other hand put up to 20k in some days, 2 a days M-Sat w/ friday evening off if they showed up that morning.

The best part IMO as a swimmer and a coach was the 2 hr no touching the bottom or walls water polo!

I think the 8 yo will be fine. They will do fun stuff such as play relay games (my favorite was 4 person teams swimming 50's for X length of time) and treadwater w/ bricks or weight buckets, it's not just grinding out yardage.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Water polo rAwkZ!!

And is seriously one of the best things you can do to get ready for open water swim racing.

Sounds like coach has a reasonably good idea of what's age appropriate for the little ones.

That's right it's 4 times per week - one down tonight, exactly 3,000 yds, about 800 of that w/ kickboard and fins. They had big smiles at the end and left practice chanting "9 more days, 9 more days, ..." ... so far, so good!

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kangaroo -- please do not read or respond to any of my posts

I got a present like that too, also on my 14th birthday.

4000 scm butterfly... Sounds scary, but after 1200 you just go on, and on, and on...

I think when you're 8 y/o you kind of look up to your coach, so when your boy think it's fun, just let him go. But if he tells you that it's not fun, or he don't want to go, call the coach and talk to him. Maybe he says that your boy should come to the poolside and watch (remember to bring his speedos), cause 9 out of 10 times he will go in the pool. Maybe only swimming the half, but he'll be there.

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Long Distance PB: 8:25
Instagram: larsschmidttri

  I consider myself a very experienced swim coach, I swam all through HS and now I coach one of the best HS swim teams in the nation. I have also been coaching the age group club team for about 15 years, so I understand this concern very much.

Swimming needs to be fun!! Especially for someone 8years old. If its not fun then there is very little there to keep one going. First of all, I don't think that an 8 year old is going to benefit a great deal from longer more intense practices, They have no muscle mass to help them get that benefit. In fact, they will be more inclined to get an injury for that reason, with no muscle mass all the stress gets put on the joint (shoulder) and then to the bones. That is a situation that you do not want to have as an 11-12 year old. In my opinion, until about the age of 10-11 swimming needs to be centered on 85% technique and 15% aerobic workouts, I center on technique so much because of the high rate of injury that can occur with swimming with the wrong technique.

During our Christmas break season, our group of younger swimmers are in the water everyday for 1hr, and we do different things with them on a each day, including games on about 1 day week. I think that I’ve been very successful in this plan and I have done this plan for about the last 10 seasons.

The second main point is that I would like to make is, Would you like your child to be #1 in the state/nation as an 8 year old or would you rather have your child be #1 in the state/nation as a senior in HS? I think we know what that answer is and the philosophy of the swimming program needs to coincide with that. There are far too many parents that think that if they are not #1 now they will not be #1 in the future. It is just as common to see someone swimming their whole life and end up as a state champion as it is to see someone start swimming several years prior and end up as state champion. It takes hard work and dedication either way and that is not something a coach can necessarily teach, but the swimmer who just started might have a slight upper hand at the dedication part because this is a relatively new thing to them. Many parents these days want instant success; You and I know that is very often not the case, especially in dealing with young children! I want to see my swimmers at meets doing the different things that we have been working on in practice and above all having FUN!!

As far as a parents concerns I would just suggest talking to your child’s coaches as much as possible (Not on deck during practice) and seeing what their goals and philosophies are.

I do apologize for making this seem like a thesis but swimming has been a passion of mine for quite some time now and I like to give back as much as it’s given to me. Please email me with any additional questions or concerns you may have.
I hope I was some help.

That is one of the groups I currently coach. My "advanced" 7-8 year olds are doing 2500-3000 yards 3 to 4 days a week. Most of that yardage is stroke technique.

Like others have been saying...as long as he is motivated, excited, not overly fatigued...let him go for it. As long as it's his decision and he's having fun then it is a great time for comraderie, confidence building, etc. I think that as long as his typical workouts are under 3000 yards and are technique as well as fun based then he should be fine doing a small amount of extra yardage for two weeks. Without seeing the whole picture it's really hard to give anything but general advice.

We're sticking to our regular schedule during the holidays for all 10 & unders...our Senior and top level age group will be getting the double sessions and 100 100's on New Years...

Looks like your son will be adapting to a new meaning of "torture" as he progresses from one age group to future competitive groups...this is how it should be.

It's great that you have this source to help inform, educate...and as others have stated, close communication with his coach is key as well.

Peace...

Peter

I cannot remember a time when I wasnt going to swim practice. I think I began at 5. Started 2 practices a day at around 10 or so. My coach trained everyone the same way - HARD. As a result, my shoulders didn't make it past my freshman year in College and still give me signifigant problems today. At 8 years old I do not believe the body can respond to this type of stress properly. My only result at that age was fatigue. I would reccomend that you only let your kid do one practice a day, focus on stroke, and spend the rest of the time being a kid.

These kids can handle it. Their ability to endure is enormous. I've seen it for 30 years. Yes, some kids get burned out, but ten days shouldn't hurt him unless he has some physical ailment.

A better question is, WHY aren't the rest of us doing this? :) :)

We are the wusses, not the 8 year olds. :) j/k

-Robert

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"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank