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De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3?
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While I love my T1, I guess I am glad I didn't order a Water Rover. I read in the race guide today that there was a 5mm limit. Hope I misunderstood for those that bought them. I thought through all the discussion I read on here there was no limit.

Team Zoot So Cal
Last edited by: Karl: Feb 8, 10 18:50
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [Karl] [ In reply to ]
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Is it USAT sanctioned? If so, then it is BS...
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [Fast&Crooked] [ In reply to ]
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I just re-read it. Swim rule #7. Wetsuits must be 5mm thick or less.

Team Zoot So Cal
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [Karl] [ In reply to ]
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I am sure this will be an interesting thread for tomorrow morning. I hope the race director doesn't decide Disc wheels are unfair or for that matter any wetsuit over $300.

Seems to be arbitrary rule specific to one innovator... I hope people write the race director and protest arbitrary rules.
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [Fast&Crooked] [ In reply to ]
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The question is "how do they enforce the rule". I have no issue with a 5 mm (or less rule) as long as it can be enforced. How do you enforce if a suit is 5mm, 6 mm, 8 mm? Is there a USAT marshall at check in with a set of calipers measuring all the suits at the thickest point. If this is the case, that's great. Or you are only allowed to wear suits with a pre-cleared 5mm thickness certification that comes from USAT before you buy? But who is to say that the athlete did no doctor the suit after purchase and added an extra triangular "crotch patch" that is 15mm thick to generate a pull buoy effect (I'd say that this falls into the flotation device category anyway and would risk using that clause to DQ the athlete as it is not an integral part of the suit)....anyway, should be a good discussion tomorrow. If nothing else, knowing the temps advertised for Oceanside, the Water Rover would be a good warmth option!
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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I do not have a problem with the rule. I just was surprised by it.
I would hide the label that says Ware Rover if I had one.
I just thought it was a big discussion on ST if there was a limit. Based on that, I thin k some chose to buy the Water Rover.

Team Zoot So Cal
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Sports seem to be in two camps, either you respect the rules completely (golf) or you take a if you're not caught you didn't cheat attitude (nascar). Tri is stuck in the middle with drafting homemade fairings etc. I'd much prefer Tri to go towards the golf side of things.

As far as enforcement 99% of the cases are pretty easy with wetsuits.

Styrrell
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [Karl] [ In reply to ]
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This in my opinion is the end of the Water Rover. I bought one, with doubts and now I regret it--it's disallowed over in Germany, Australia and other places--now at Ocenaside--my A race for the year.

I'd like to know if Emilo is going to give us our money back or not.

I like the wetsuit--would have liked to race in it. I suppose i would like EPO too. Bad business to sell illegal stuff though. I don't draft and i don't want to be part of something that's illegal in the Tri-world. If we buy this product do we have to risk being labelled as cheaters. that not what I signed up for. Please take it back--I want to go fast but I want to play fair!

Am I missing something here?

What say you Emilo?

Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.
Last edited by: rcmioga: Feb 8, 10 19:36
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [Karl] [ In reply to ]
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This is too funny



blood, sweat...and big gears

I hated every minute of training, but I said, ''Don't quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.''
- Muhammad Ali
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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I have a 1st gen T1 and love it. I have nothing but respect for Emilio, get business plan support and products. That said I wouldn't buy a Water Rover unless I had a back up. Many non US federations have a 5mm regulation, some US races run under international regs have a 5 mm regulation. According to Desoto they were told it wouldn't be outlawed by USAT, but USATdoesn't have the best track record with rules, regulations, or one hand knowing what tghe other is doing. Not to mention that an individual race director can do what they want, to a point. I don't think you can blame Desoto, they were completely upfront about the situation.

Styrrell
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
The question is "how do they enforce the rule". /reply]

When there is a big ass water rover logo on it, shouldn't be too hard...
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [sdmike] [ In reply to ]
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[conspiracy theory]I wouldn't put it past another wetsuit vendor to slip a few g's in the RD's pocket to set that rule up[/conspiracy theory]
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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You are missing a lot.

You bought a water rover knowing that there was a chance that it would be disallowed and now you're complaining b/c it's no longer allowed?

LMAO. In fact it was stated on here and a few retailers websites that it was not legal outside of the US.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
LMAO. In fact it was stated on here and a few retailers websites that it was not legal outside of the US.


Sounds to me like the fact that it won't be allowed at the "Rhoto" CA 70.3 (I guess they couldn't find a new sponsor with a better name) - a race inside the US and his "A" race - is the straw that broke the camel's back. I didn't pay attention, was it mentioned that it wouldn't be allowed at some US-based 70.3 races?

Mike Sparks


I have competed well, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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"I bought one, with doubts..."

I think you are just trolling if you really consider to get your money back.

Just in case you were not, you made a poor purchasing decision, since there was ample discussion about this issue on the forum and in the end there was nothing more than "he says, they say". With "he" being the seller and "them" supposedly being USAT.

So who did you think would dictate the rules when it comes to international uniformity in competition rules (All international 70.3 say 5mm),

allmighty national USAT or tiny international WTC?


Anyway, I don't think that they will enforce that rule, even if you don't cover up the label.

DeSoto has a lot of pull in SD. Plus he can easily take the RD in an arm-wrestling contest.... that should take care of it.









___________________________________________
Ego numquam pronuncio mendacium,
sed sum homo salvaticus
Last edited by: de-tri-mental: Feb 8, 10 23:07
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [Karl] [ In reply to ]
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I am really glad I didn't buy one. In fact, I was holding out, I really wanted one, but I was waiting for exactly this before making up my mind.

damn....I was really looking forward to PRing all my swims withought doing any swim training.
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [Karl] [ In reply to ]
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Just because there is no limit as a base rule for USAT, doesn't mean a race can't get a specific exemption on a wetsuit issue (Kona) or allow/disallow other accessories (neoprene socks). Having witnessed what went down with FINA this year, it is to be expected that triathlon will start governing more closely the use of uber floatatious wetsuits, swim skins, etc.
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
This in my opinion is the end of the Water Rover. I bought one, with doubts and now I regret it--it's disallowed over in Germany, Australia and other places--now at Ocenaside--my A race for the year.

I'd like to know if Emilo is going to give us our money back or not.

I like the wetsuit--would have liked to race in it. I suppose i would like EPO too. Bad business to sell illegal stuff though. I don't draft and i don't want to be part of something that's illegal in the Tri-world. If we buy this product do we have to risk being labelled as cheaters. that not what I signed up for. Please take it back--I want to go fast but I want to play fair!

Am I missing something here?

What say you Emilo?
Emilio in the past said the suit would not be legal at many non-USA races. Why would he give you your money back? On threads here he stated that they had not included a money-back guarantee, although at the same time he also said he was confident that the suit would be legal. I did not buy a Water Rover, because I thought it would be outlawed.

Race independent races instead.

-- Aaron Davidson
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [Karl] [ In reply to ]
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So the race is USAT with some exceptions. Now, this would mean USAT would have to have agreed to allow them to force a 5mm thickness rule. If true, Emilio must be real upset. Since I thought a few wetsuits already
had some places over 5mm, how would the rule be enforced? Seems like a few that run these events make no sense. If they really cared about the swim leg, why have they not gotten an exception from USAT to lower the water temp where they are legal? Am looking forward to Emilio's comment on this.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [Karl] [ In reply to ]
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I hope WTC makes that a rule for all their races as a 5mm limit seems to have worked fine and we really ought to keep wetsuits from becoming safety vests with sails attached. Obviously if 10mm is OK, next we'll see 15-20mm. It seems that there is room for lots of innovation in wetsuits yet without going the whale blubber route.

Dave
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [dcsxtri10] [ In reply to ]
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Why do some have such an issue with wetsuit technology, but not with bike technology?

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
The question is "how do they enforce the rule". I have no issue with a 5 mm (or less rule) as long as it can be enforced. How do you enforce if a suit is 5mm, 6 mm, 8 mm? Is there a USAT marshall at check in with a set of calipers measuring all the suits at the thickest point. If this is the case, that's great. Or you are only allowed to wear suits with a pre-cleared 5mm thickness certification that comes from USAT before you buy? But who is to say that the athlete did no doctor the suit after purchase and added an extra triangular "crotch patch" that is 15mm thick to generate a pull buoy effect (I'd say that this falls into the flotation device category anyway and would risk using that clause to DQ the athlete as it is not an integral part of the suit)....anyway, should be a good discussion tomorrow. If nothing else, knowing the temps advertised for Oceanside, the Water Rover would be a good warmth option!


Well, if they see you rocking the water rover they are probably going to come over with their calipers and pop you with a penalty or dq....might want to rub those graphics off those suits
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [Karl] [ In reply to ]
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I am surprised that Emilio has not jumped in the thread yet...I am sure he has made a phonecall to confirm this..would be nice to hear from him on this
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [djciii] [ In reply to ]
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This was posted late last night, and it's only 7:10AM Emilio's time. I'm sure he's on it. Sheesh, have some patience! I'm interested in this too.
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [nickwhite] [ In reply to ]
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Oh yeah, forgot about that....
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe we have a difference of opinion with what constitutes a technology improvement and how it effects the nature of the sport. I'm just a MOP swimmer... but I would prefer to compete in a way that still accentuates swim fitness and skill. I personally don't like the more blubber approach for extra flotation and struggle with that being "technology". We can all have our personal opinions ... but hopefully we will find WTC thinks similarly with a 5mm rule.
Dave
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [nickwhite] [ In reply to ]
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Yep, I assume Emilio is looking at this issue right now. I only have a few days to return the one I purchased, so not sure what to do.

I talked with Charlie, and I guess at the end of the day, Skip Gilbert would be the single person who would approve exceptions like this to the standard USAT rules.

I just wrote Jimmy Riccitello to ask him about what is going on since he is the rule guy for WTC.

Since, I believe, some existing suits have some places with greater than 5mm already, I wonder if WTC is going to outlaw these suits also? I still want to know why WTC would outlaw something that helps you go faster in the swim?
Why not outlaw disc wheels since they make you go faster on the bike? I just so no difference.

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [dcsxtri10] [ In reply to ]
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I would agree if you then said all disc and disc type wheels are illegal. Aero bars are illegal. If you do not agree that ALL devices that makes one go faster should be eliminated, then I just think one is not looking at all 3 sports equally.
I would love to hear from WTC what their logic is to pick on one technology, and turn an eye to others that do the same thing, make one faster. And again, what about the few wetsuits that already have parts over 5mm? I just see this as emotion and politics, but what is new in any sport. :o(

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Since, I believe, some existing suits have some places with greater than 5mm already
In Reply To:

Which suits?

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [djciii] [ In reply to ]
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OK, hear me out. You can't just DQ someone cause they have a water rover label. That's not an objective measure of the rule. If the rule says 5 mm at maximum thickness, someone from USAT has to come out with a set of calipers and measure on the spot and would actually need to do this with any wetsuit worn by EVERY competitor as each individual could easily cut out an old wetsuit and glue in a patch of neoprene approximately 1 square foot in diameter to raise the hips (like a "virtual pull buoy").

To be completely open, I have watched this from a distance. If thicker wetsuits are allowed by USAT (just like P3's or fast wheels), then the arms race is on, and I don't want to give away free speed to my competition. I have not purchased a Water Rover yet as I want to see how the rules shake out. I have even asked Steve Fleck at Nineteen to make me a prototype, but they won't untill the rules settle down and they may never just because the rest of the world seems to dictate a 5 mm limit (although there is zero enforcement, and I'd argue that there are several suits on the market already over the limit if you take the calipers to the thickest part....). Here in Canada 5mm is the limit, but I don't just race in Canada, in fact, of the races I do in Canada, none are sanctioned by Triathlon Canada, so in theory all the races I am doing aside from Ironman France have no wetsuit thickness limit.

Intellectually speaking, going over 5 mm does not really sit that well with me. But 5mm is also arbitrary. If it was all about keeping heat trapped in for cold water swimming, 3 mm would suffice even for a guy like me at 4.5-6% body fat. If it gets colder, you can always wear a neoprene cap. 5mm itself is exclusively there for flotation. If we were being honest about how much wetsuit thickness is needed, 2-3 mm would take care of things, minimize flotation while keeping in enough body heat. In fact, I'd like a 2-3 mm suit for open water training so that I can have enough heat trapped in, but also do something more in line with a proper swim than riding high up on the water like with a 5 mm suit.
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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I love Emilio's products (have used a T1 for years) but this Rover thing is rediculous. Why not just allow pull bouys or inflatable bladders? Or how about this...just learn to swim faster? The run is my weak link..how about I get to use leaf spring running shoes ;-)
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
OK, hear me out. You can't just DQ someone cause they have a water rover label. That's not an objective measure of the rule. If the rule says 5 mm at maximum thickness, someone from USAT has to come out with a set of calipers and measure on the spot and would actually need to do this with any wetsuit worn by EVERY competitor as each individual could easily cut out an old wetsuit and glue in a patch of neoprene approximately 1 square foot in diameter to raise the hips (like a "virtual pull buoy").

To be completely open, I have watched this from a distance. If thicker wetsuits are allowed by USAT (just like P3's or fast wheels), then the arms race is on, and I don't want to give away free speed to my competition. I have not purchased a Water Rover yet as I want to see how the rules shake out. I have even asked Steve Fleck at Nineteen to make me a prototype, but they won't untill the rules settle down and they may never just because the rest of the world seems to dictate a 5 mm limit (although there is zero enforcement, and I'd argue that there are several suits on the market already over the limit if you take the calipers to the thickest part....). Here in Canada 5mm is the limit, but I don't just race in Canada, in fact, of the races I do in Canada, none are sanctioned by Triathlon Canada, so in theory all the races I am doing aside from Ironman France have no wetsuit thickness limit.

Intellectually speaking, going over 5 mm does not really sit that well with me. But 5mm is also arbitrary. If it was all about keeping heat trapped in for cold water swimming, 3 mm would suffice even for a guy like me at 4.5-6% body fat. If it gets colder, you can always wear a neoprene cap. 5mm itself is exclusively there for flotation. If we were being honest about how much wetsuit thickness is needed, 2-3 mm would take care of things, minimize flotation while keeping in enough body heat. In fact, I'd like a 2-3 mm suit for open water training so that I can have enough heat trapped in, but also do something more in line with a proper swim than riding high up on the water like with a 5 mm suit.

Coupla things.

- WTC has always operated on modified USAT rules. So the idea that WTC cannot/could not make exceptions to any USAT rule they wanted is ridiculous. They make exceptions to the CPSC rule in Kona (only) for helmets. They make exceptions at every race for how pros race (no stagger). So WTC rules are NOT the same as USAT rules, even for USAT sanctioned races. WTC is allowed to make changes that they feel are in the best interest in their race. Ultimately, the USAT rules are about insurance. Something like setting 5mm for wetsuits won't change insurance for the race, so WTC is free to make that change.

- For Dev, I'm not *sure* that 5mm is arbitrary. There are USAT rules, AFAIK, about how cold the water can be before you have to cancel the swim. 5mm may be considered adequate by wetsuit manufacturers (for example from diving) to safely prevent hypothermia, etc. at the coldest possible temperature. I.e., you may not need a 5mm suit most days, but some folks may very well need it for a race like Alcatraz, Auburn, etc. I'm not sure about this, but I know wetsuit manufacturing way outdates triathlon's use of wetsuits, and I'm sure there are some thickness-temperature guidelines.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [TriMike] [ In reply to ]
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Why is a wetsuit, at all, or any thickness, different than a disc wheel? If you are saying using something that can give you free speed is wrong, then why is a disc wheel okay?

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [Karl] [ In reply to ]
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i'm looking on the website. i don't see that in the rules. so, this is a subsequent rule that went out after you paid your entry fee? further, what i do see on ironmancalifornia's website is this:

"USA Triathlon (USAT) has sanctioned the 2010 Rohto Ironman 70.3 California. Please visit usatriathlon. org for a complete set of the competitive rules. Ironman has been granted certain rule dispensations so please read the following information carefully as the rules may differ slightly from other USATsanctioned events."

i don't believe any dispensation has been granted re de soto's wetsuits (the water rover or otherwise).

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Yep, WTC for all effective purposes has they own set of rules. They just call them modified USAT rules, but they are different.

I have worked a lot with USAT on the wetsuit temperature rule. At the end of the day, yes, a study was done and 78 was picked. BUT, I will bet a dollar that the tests they did would not convince many the end results made any sense. I will bet they did not try different thickness wetsuits.

Bottom line talking with Charlie, is he could care less about things like this. There are SO many things used in our sport that are only there for speed, why pick on just one part. He says USAT has no desire to get into this, since there is no real way to enforce, and we know some suits have some parts over 5mm already. (Lots of ways to get this to happen).

But, at the end of the day, all I care about is have I purchased something that will not be allowed in a race I might want to do?

Looking forward to Jimmy's comments on this topic.

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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I agree with Dave here--anyone taking a righteous view on the Water Rover AND has a disc, or any other wetsuit, or a tri-suit, or aeorbars, or a TT bike or....anything else that helps you go fast is a hypocrite. The issue here is what is legal? If the Water rover is legal then you should be able to use it. If not--then no and De soto shouldn't sell it.

A cas in point, Hammer products has just stopped selling their Glycerol product based on a new WADA ruling....

Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [TriMike] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:

how about I get to use leaf spring running shoes ;-)


http://www.spirafootwear.com/
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
In Reply To:


- For Dev, I'm not *sure* that 5mm is arbitrary. There are USAT rules, AFAIK, about how cold the water can be before you have to cancel the swim. 5mm may be considered adequate by wetsuit manufacturers (for example from diving) to safely prevent hypothermia, etc. at the coldest possible temperature. I.e., you may not need a 5mm suit most days, but some folks may very well need it for a race like Alcatraz, Auburn, etc. I'm not sure about this, but I know wetsuit manufacturing way outdates triathlon's use of wetsuits, and I'm sure there are some thickness-temperature guidelines.


Hi Jordan, perhaps Slowman can jump in here with some history on how the 5 mm evolved in other federations....yes there are races like Alcatraz or several early season races here in Canada or the North East where the additional warmth is good, but I'm not really that sure if a 3 mm suit + neoprene cap would not be sufficient. For 95% of races, 5mm is overkill.....heck for 50% of the races, the presence of wetsuits itself is overkill and I am by no means a strong swimmer :-)
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [TriMike] [ In reply to ]
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I agree, I think 5mm and 76.1 for all events would be a good step. Wetsuits should be considered for warmth, not as speed enhancers. I too like others have taken a wait and see approach to this. As soon as I see all the other manufacturers coming out with thicker suits then I guess it's game on and my next upgrade will be to a thicker suit, but I hope that doesn't happen and we stick with 5mm or less.

I also can't believe that this is something Emilio is just waking up and finding out about today, this is his backyard and triathlon is not that big of a community.

I admire DeSoto's business gamble I just don't see it as being good for the sport and personally hope the trend doesn't continue. WTC is in the position to make policy so it will be interesting to see how this unfolds. They have already fought and won the battle with USAT allowing them to break for the standard USAT rules. Maybe it is just a political and/or sponsor issue but that also can't be a surprise to anybody if they really thought the issue through.

MC


http://www.mctriguy.blogspot.com
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Dan, just talked to Skip Gilbert. I was told USAT has been talking about this question, but he says there is no way to enforce. Same thing Charlie states. I agree with both of them.

Skip stated that any changes from the USAT rules that WTC would want, he would have to approve, and he has seen nothing from WTC about a unique 5mm rule for them.

So, being a process guy, this whole thing is interesting. I told Skip that 70.3 calif has this rule on their website. He was heading into a directors meeting right now, and said he would bring this issue up, have his team look into it, and get back to me, (us).

Shall be interesting to see how we got to this point.

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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That was the word I was looking for, hypocrite.

But, no, wetsuits are different, as some have posted many time to justify their position.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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I would say 5mm is plenty to keep you warm. I've surfed in 55 degree water on a sunny day in 3/2 suit. Granted I'm sitting on a board and not submerged but at the same time I'm not constantly moving either. When I decided to look at doing tri's I couldn't believe the thickness (or for that matter the cost) of tri wetsuits.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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 would agree if you then said all disc and disc type wheels are illegal. Aero bars are illegal. If you do not agree that ALL devices that makes one go faster should be eliminated, then I just think one is not looking at all 3 sports equally.

__________________

No, I don't agree with all that ... but I do agree that recumbent bikes with fairings should not be allowed. To me a 10mm suit is a similar situation. There do need to be some limits.
Dave
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [MCHammers] [ In reply to ]
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With your logic, why is 5 okay and anything greater is bad? Where is your data supporting any thickness? Maybe we only need 2 so 5 is "cheating". I just love to see things like this where no logic or data is being used, but I assume you use a disc wheel and aero bars to make you faster on the bike?

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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A cas in point, Hammer products has just stopped selling their Glycerol product based on a new WADA ruling....
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You made your case quite nicely imo. They were selling something that was legal at the time. Now it's not and they stopped. The water rover was for some events and now some of that some has said no. You can still use it in other events, just not some events.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [dcsxtri10] [ In reply to ]
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So I know this is your opinion, but do we do rules on opinions or on some base set of goals? Why can I not put fairings on my Tri bike? No more unsafe that aero bars would be.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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The flaw in your logic is that disc wheels, aerobars, etc. are allowed in timed cycling events. Basically, look at triathlon as a combination of 3 sports and apply the rules from those 3 sports. Disc wheels and aerobars are legal in cycling, so legal for the bike leg of a tri. 10mm wetsuits are not allowed in open water swimming, so not allowed in tris.

Your logic about eliminating things that "make you faster" is worse than the thought processes of those you criticize. Running in shoes makes me faster than running barefoot, should those be eliminated? Air in my bike tires makes me faster, should I deflate them?



Portside Athletics Blog
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Dave any sport needs rules. For tri the swim, bike and run all have quipment rules. Somethings are allowed to be used others aren't. These rules are subject to change from year to year, federation to federation and race to race. Nothing hypocritical I don't if the WR suit is allowed or not, or discs are allowed or not (although I do wish the arms race in tri would somewhat slow down).

IF Cali doesn't allow the WR there are plenty that will if you don't have another legal option.

Styrrell
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [smtyrrell99] [ In reply to ]
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I think you miss the point--I (and I think Dave) agrees that we need rules--it's just hypocritical to flame the Water Rover or people who bought it in a self-righteous tone. I was not commenting on the rules but on the people who throw stones in the case of the Water Rover but are outraged when some other rule change affects them....

Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [SwBkRn44] [ In reply to ]
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No wetsuits are legal is open water swimming. So under your logic, why are they legal in Tris. (now, masters has gotten to the point where a race can have a different grouping for a wetsuit group, but their awards are different, and these folks are treated like cheaters.)

Why should 5mm be allowed? If the technology in the past could do 7, you would be saying 7 was okay, but not 10.

Got back to the process. Read Dan's post. If WTC wants a rule different than USAT, they have to put this in writing and get Skip Gilbert's signature. Do you not find it interesting that it looks like this process may not have been followed? Are you okay with this? If so, then WTC should not say they are related to ANYTHING about USAT!!

This is going to be very interesting to watch what happens. As I said, I am more interested in the process that WTC is doing, than what the actual rules are.

And since something else with technology will come up in the future, lets see how this one plays out.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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Yep, yep, and yep

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Come on we all know that WTC trumps USAT. When WTC asks USAT to bark, they do. If WTC left USAT, USAT would be defunct in <2 years.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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Not sure what point you think I missed ;-). I'm not self righteous about the WR, I think its fine, but I'm also not surprised that a wetsuit that was illegal in some races both US and abroad when it was first put on the market (Desoto said as much) is now the subject of complaint by people that bought it because its not legal in a race they want it for.

Styrrell
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [smtyrrell99] [ In reply to ]
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I agree we need rules. BUT, this implies you agree that the processes the rules state that must be followed to make a change are used? The rules state that any change from the standard USAT rules must be submitted to USAT in writing, and Skip has to approve. Do you not think it is strange Skip told me he has seen no request in writing from WTC about a change like this, let alone he approved it. Is it not strange Dan posted it is not in the general WTC rules?

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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Are you okay with this? If so, then WTC should not say they are related to ANYTHING about USAT!!

Honestly, I don't really care about it, certainly not enough to warrant caps lock and exclamation points. I enjoy training and racing. I am relatively sure none of my gear is illegal, I pay my entry fees, go race, hang out in the parking lot afterwards, then go home. If something I am wearing or riding is deemed illegal, they can disqualify me if they would like and my conscience will be perfectly clear knowing I had no malicious intent to cheat or deceive.

Relax, it's just a hobby, it's gonna be alright.



Portside Athletics Blog
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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I know you just like to argue, Dave, I don't have any love for 5mm thickness but that has been the standard for years so the easiest thing to do if there is going to be a global standard is go with 5mm. If we were to pick a new one I would vote for 3mm, so there you go. I would add if you don't care about age group awards, hawaii slots, nationals/worlds qualifying then wear whatever you want. Wear fins with finman if you want. I ride my disc whenever possible, unless I'm at Hawaii where it is not legal, hmm special rules for one race... haven't heard the outrage over that rule yet, I've done windier races in my disc. Why not have a fairing around the back wheel, let's just have the frame overlap it that should reduce drag, let's create a fairing around the entire cockpit, that would reduce drag. Let's also put some retractable wheels on our running shoes, why should we actually have to run downhill... :)

I don't understand USAT's stance that they just can't control or police suits. If they set the policy manufacturers will fall in line and make suits to meet the policy. There won't be much policing to be done. If there are known suits that don't meet the guidelines, such as the water rover then if you are caught in one you are DQ'd. I think from there it would be a self policing issue among athletes. Would you line up in a 10mm suit know it doesn't meet standards? Also they are trying to monitor speedsuits by having a list of approved suits that go through a verified approval process, why shouldn't wetsuits be any different.

MC


http://www.mctriguy.blogspot.com
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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That might be true, but it does not change the point that folks are talking about rules. Right or wrong, the rules state WTC must submit a change like this to USAT in writing, and Skip as to sign. I do not care if it is a rubber stamp, are you saying it is okay for WTC to ignore this rule for what the process agreed to between WTC and USAT is? I wonder if they got an approval from Skip on the no bike shoes on the bikes in transistion.

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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Am I surprised that new technology that came out in the off season is being debated prior to one of the very first races of the season. Nope not at all. I really wish a cohesive set of rules would be followed, but anyone who knows anything about the relationship between USAT and WTC and the organization of both can't be too surprised that there is some confusion.

Styrrell
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Dave,
Why is your tail in such a knot over this??? We know you don't do WTC races and you got 15% off on your WR ... so what's the concern for you ;-)
Dave
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [MCHammers] [ In reply to ]
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Nope, I cannot stand to argue, especially when it is just opinions. But, I do strongly believe that if you have rules, they should be followed, and this means all of them, or none of them.

Oh well, since so far all I have seen posted are opinions, but no answers to my questions from the data I have gotten talking to the various folks that own these rules, shall be interesting to see how this plays out.

Since my back is now out for the 3rd time, racing is the last thing on my mind, but I do hope that our sport can at least be above board following rules. Now, since Worlds screwed my family not following rules, guess this is a hope that is just a joke in real life.

Got to work on my taxes today. Wonder how many new rules I can make up here to help me. :o)

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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You know it's not really a rule change since USAT doesn't have a rule to change!

MC


http://www.mctriguy.blogspot.com
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [dcsxtri10] [ In reply to ]
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The principal. I have no issues doing WTC races. They are the best. And yes, if I return my WR, it would cost me more to replace with a new T1, since I already sold my old one for $100 bucks.

But, this is why I try to not get involved with stuff like this, since most could care less about rules, unless it is to their advantage.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [MCHammers] [ In reply to ]
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There is no limit with USAT. Adding one would be a rule change.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [SwBkRn44] [ In reply to ]
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Tri geometry bikes are not UCI legal. Beam bikes (Softride, Titan Flex) are not UCI legal.
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [Karl] [ In reply to ]
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I'm glad to see this rule. Good job Roch and Huddle.

__________________
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my twitter feed
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [Alex M] [ In reply to ]
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Do not try to use logic and data. :o)

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [Alex M] [ In reply to ]
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Tri geometry bikes are not UCI legal.

You sure about that? Pretty sure the same P3s that get raced in the Tour are the ones I see at triathlons. They have the 5mm rule in relation to the bottom bracket, but they are the same bikes.

Beam bikes (Softride, Titan Flex) are not UCI legal.

You're right there, there are some exceptions to rules. That said, how have sales of those bikes done? UCI compliance may not be required, but it certainly establishes legitimacy.



Portside Athletics Blog
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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The principal.
_______
I can respect that .... but I guess its sort of like pornography... we can all see it differently. I think most competitors would have no issue with a 5mm rule and ultimately there needs to be a decision that everyone might not agree with. I would respect WTC making rules for their events and certainly I would be fine with this one....good that not many people have purchased WRs ( at least if they want to do WTC or a lot of other events).

Dave
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [SwBkRn44] [ In reply to ]
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As someone who's a FOP swimming I think it's silly that people get their pants up in a tizzy about the wetsuits bit have a run what you brung attitude on the bike. Either let people where what they want as far as wetsuits go....or ban them completely.

I wish they would drop the temp before they are out. It's hard to argue that it's a warmth thing when you have the upper temp limit at bath water temp.

As was pointed out you can't wear them in open water swimming races unless you're in an "aided" class, regardless of the water temp. Water has to be pretty freaking cold before it's a safety problem. A whole bunch of us are swimming Alcatraz in June sans wetsuit for the open water race, so even what we consider to be super cold can be done. There are only a very few races where the water temp is low enough that you really need to wear them.
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [smtyrrell99] [ In reply to ]
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Dave any sport needs rules

I am only going to post once here and confine my comments to the rules only. I am not one of those rule-weenie's but, triathlon never looks good in these sorts of circumstances. It looks silly, actually. We have cowboy rules with rules all over the place in different places with exceptions here and exceptions there. What I would like to see as both a competitor and as a manufacturer is some unity on rules - across the board and across all jurisdictions. Other sports can do this, why not triathlon?



Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [dcsxtri10] [ In reply to ]
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I have my opinions about technology that is used in our sport. But that is not the question I have and will continue to ask. If WTC followed their rules, and has a signed document from Skip that USAT approves changes to the USAT wetsuit rules, then great. If not, this is what I am asking. Did WTC follow their rule change process, and can these show this signed document to us? Now, if WTC really cared about the swim leg, they would either eliminate them completely, or lower the temp. To put a rule in place that cannot be enforced is just well, I have my opinion on this also. :o)

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [indytri] [ In reply to ]
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I think wetsuits ARE needed in triathlon in many cold weather conditions....although 5 mm is likely overkill. You can't use your "open water swimmer" as your gauge for cold resistance and there being no need for wetsuits....few of these guys are 4% body fat. Many would not likley finish the run. We're talking about a different category of athlete participating in triathlon.

Some neoprene is needed for safety in cold, for the secondary reason that many triathletes cannot apply enough power to the water to generate sufficient body heat to keep themselves warm in the cold (remember 20% efficiency, so if you are only generating 100W of power in the water, you're only generating 400W of heat....whereas a proficient swimmer might be able to generate another 1000W of heat (assume that the proficient swimmer is chugging along generating 250W of propulsive action with arms and legs....)...that's a big diff in keeping oneself warm.

The harder the athlete can go, the warmer they are going to stay in cold water. MOP and BOP triathletes just can't generate enough heat to keep themselves warm without a wetsuit, especially if they are lean runner types....they'll get winded first.
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Can someone measure the Virtual Pull Buoy on a QR suit if they have one? I believe it is over 5 mm

http://quintanarootri.com/...rfull/superfull.html
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Dave any sport needs rules

I am only going to post once here and confine my comments to the rules only. I am not one of those rule-weenie's but, triathlon never looks good in these sorts of circumstances. It looks silly, actually. We have cowboy rules with rules all over the place in different places with exceptions here and exceptions there. What I would like to see as both a competitor and as a manufacturer is some unity on rules - across the board and across all jurisdictions. Other sports can do this, why not triathlon?

I agree 100%
In other sports, rule changes are made before the year begins, this gives all competitors a level playing field for how they choose to invest their equipment-dollars. Rules changes once the season or "year" has begun simply reeks of potential corruption, which in turn makes people much less likely to want to be part of that sport, or they simply accept the idea that the process is corrupt, and then you go down the path of fighting fire with fire, and in this instance that just means taking your Xterra to the local wetsuit repair and having a 7mm panel sewn in.

Be forthright in your rulings as a sanctioning body, and you give the athletes a reason to follow suit. Start acting in a potentially corrupt manner, and then its every athlete for him/herself. The limit at that point is based solely on creativity and guile.

And please, let's be adult enough to accept responsibility for our own actions. this means if you get caught cheating, own it.
If you purchased a wetsuit, own that responsibility as well.
nobody likes a crybaby, you just make the rest of us look bad.



persequetur vestra metas furiose
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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OK, hear me out. You can't just DQ someone cause they have a water rover label. That's not an objective measure of the rule. If the rule says 5 mm at maximum thickness, someone from USAT has to come out with a set of calipers and measure on the spot and would actually need to do this with any wetsuit worn by EVERY competitor as each individual could easily cut out an old wetsuit and glue in a patch of neoprene approximately 1 square foot in diameter to raise the hips (like a "virtual pull buoy").

To be completely open, I have watched this from a distance. If thicker wetsuits are allowed by USAT (just like P3's or fast wheels), then the arms race is on, and I don't want to give away free speed to my competition. I have not purchased a Water Rover yet as I want to see how the rules shake out. I have even asked Steve Fleck at Nineteen to make me a prototype, but they won't untill the rules settle down and they may never just because the rest of the world seems to dictate a 5 mm limit (although there is zero enforcement, and I'd argue that there are several suits on the market already over the limit if you take the calipers to the thickest part....). Here in Canada 5mm is the limit, but I don't just race in Canada, in fact, of the races I do in Canada, none are sanctioned by Triathlon Canada, so in theory all the races I am doing aside from Ironman France have no wetsuit thickness limit.

Intellectually speaking, going over 5 mm does not really sit that well with me. But 5mm is also arbitrary. If it was all about keeping heat trapped in for cold water swimming, 3 mm would suffice even for a guy like me at 4.5-6% body fat. If it gets colder, you can always wear a neoprene cap. 5mm itself is exclusively there for flotation. If we were being honest about how much wetsuit thickness is needed, 2-3 mm would take care of things, minimize flotation while keeping in enough body heat. In fact, I'd like a 2-3 mm suit for open water training so that I can have enough heat trapped in, but also do something more in line with a proper swim than riding high up on the water like with a 5 mm suit.

I totally agree with Dev on this statement. Emilio is working within the rules. If he thought 15 mm would be better then he would have used 15 mm. He tested it and it wasn't. There is also a reason why the entire suit is not 10 mm, b/c it would be slower. This will not generate an arms race to 40 mm suits.
I have noticed it is the strong swimmers that are most upset by the WR. As a strong cyclist should I get mad at people using areo goodies and sitting at a 7 meter legal draft to keep up.
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [xcsnail] [ In reply to ]
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It has to be thicker than 5 mm because the rubber around the virtual pull buoy is already 5 mm, but interestingly enough QR steers clear of coming right out and saying it is >5mm. At least Emilio is up front. Any ITU guys using VPB technology? I bet not, cause they'd get nailed by the officials, but I may be wrong. Following text from QRoo website:

We all know how pull buoys work when in the pool doing laps and training. The Superfull uses what we’ve patented as a Virtual Pull Buoy (“VPB”). Once you try it, you will understand it. It feels like you are taking a corner at 70 mph, instead of a boat taking a wide turn. Being able to rotate on your axis in the water makes you swim faster, with less effort. What does that mean? It means you burn fewer calories and keep your heart rate lower. It means that you swim with greater economy than without a wetsuit.

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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Okay Brian, Dev just posted the info on the QR. Do you think that section is 5 or under?


In Reply To:
Since, I believe, some existing suits have some places with greater than 5mm already
In Reply To:


Which suits?

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [Karl] [ In reply to ]
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From CA70.3 Athlete Information Guide

Swim Course Rules and Instructions

"7. Wetsuits must be 5mm thick or less."
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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If they outlaw the Water Rover and don't outlaw the Superfull with VPB, then Emilio should be all over this. Moreover, if they don't outlaw the Superful with VPB, everyone is going to be lined up at the local dive shop to get their own VPB patched into their current wetsuit between crotch and hips....

Not say I like it, but I if the VPB is thicker than 5 mm and they cut out Emilio's Water Rover, then there needs to be equal treatment across the board and that includes inspection for home made modifications...

Dev
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
If they outlaw the Water Rover and don't outlaw the Superfull with VPB, then Emilio should be all over this. Moreover, if they don't outlaw the Superful with VPB, everyone is going to be lined up at the local dive shop to get their own VPB patched into their current wetsuit between crotch and hips....

Not say I like it, but I if the VPB is thicker than 5 mm and they cut out Emilio's Water Rover, then there needs to be equal treatment across the board and that includes inspection for home made modifications...

Dev

I'm going to glue in 20 camelbak bladders to the chest of my suit.
Do you think anyone will notice the blue drink tubes coming out the sleeves of my suit?



persequetur vestra metas furiose
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [E_moto] [ In reply to ]
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...you'd be nailed for "flotation device"....on the other hand, the made at home VPB patch job to an existing suit is "needed for warmth" for those who exeperience more shrinkage than others and as such it would be a safety need.

The above post should be done in pink....

Dev
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Until someone has proven the QR is 5 or under, based on their own website posting, it seems fair to assume it is over 5. With this assumption, I have asked many times before, why are folks not going after QR and their VPB, like they are going after the WR? (Sorry to ask another question about logic. :o) )

Wonder why not one person has responded about my questions did WTC follow their own rules for a rule change? When these folks get what they want, even if rules are ignored, they are silent. But, if they do not like something, screw the rules, all that maters is they get what they want.

Dave

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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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One could also say if you can't take the cold water, don't do the race.......


Also really what does the thickness have to do with it, shouldn't it be the overall buoyancy of the suit?
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [indytri] [ In reply to ]
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isn't the 2XU elite wetsuit also larger than 5mm at the legs with those "propulsion panels"????
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [E_moto] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
In Reply To:
If they outlaw the Water Rover and don't outlaw the Superfull with VPB, then Emilio should be all over this. Moreover, if they don't outlaw the Superful with VPB, everyone is going to be lined up at the local dive shop to get their own VPB patched into their current wetsuit between crotch and hips....

Not say I like it, but I if the VPB is thicker than 5 mm and they cut out Emilio's Water Rover, then there needs to be equal treatment across the board and that includes inspection for home made modifications...

Dev

I'm going to glue in 20 camelbak bladders to the chest of my suit.
Do you think anyone will notice the blue drink tubes coming out the sleeves of my suit?

I can't imagine that would help you at all. Actually I think it would hinder your performance since that would more than likely send your legs deep under water. Unless you are a contortionist? :)
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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I don't see this wetsuit thickness situation as much different from the drafting rule, for which the enforcement is not perfect. Assume a 7m rule. You could ride a 6.9m or at 7.1m and get a penalty in both cases, or not. It is left to the judgment call of the referee. With regard to the the Water Rover, the referee's job is made easier as the wetsuit is clearly over the 5mm limit. As for people adding patches to their wetsuit, hiding the Water Rover label or knowingly using a thicker wetsuit and hoping not to get caught, they are no better than Finman (or the athletes stating that one is not drafting until caught by a referee).
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [E_moto] [ In reply to ]
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Agreed x3.

The squabble between USAT and WTC will keep hurting our sport.

In the long term it looks like big race organizers (like WTC) will be able to force their rules and I don't think USAT is standing a fighting chance unless they get their act together and make clean concise rules together with the big players like WTC.

On a more somber note, it looks like WTC is just flexing their muscles and and show USAT that they really don't need them if push comes to shove.

The sad thing is that right now this is all played out on the back of the athletes who don't know what the rules are at the next race they are attending.

I am really looking forward to bringing (on top of a couple different types of wetsuits) three different bikes to my next race.
Maybe they could have a lottery on what rules to follow the morning of the race.
That would be the good old pioneering spirit!

___________________________________________
Ego numquam pronuncio mendacium,
sed sum homo salvaticus
Last edited by: de-tri-mental: Feb 9, 10 10:46
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [ In reply to ]
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If Emilio did his due diligence (and from what I read he did over a number of years) and ensured that this suit was in compliance with WTC/USAT rules and that they didn't see these rules changing and then all of a sudden a RD who is using USAT rules/insurance etc. decides they are illegal, I would have an issue with that. Not just as a competitor but more from a consumer point of view.
I can only imagine the 1000's of dollars of money Emilio has sunk into this new product and if all of a sudden RD's start saying on their own that you can't use them at their races, when their governing body has stated they are fine, then I see very bad things for DeSoto sports. Especially in this economy. I would hate to see one of the leaders in tri-apparel be taken down by something like this.
Sure rules change and sports evolve but it really looks like he acted in a very responsible way in this matter.
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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http://www.ironmancalifornia.com/2010IMCHAI.pdf

Page 9, point 7:
"7. Wetsuits must be 5mm thick or less."
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [Trirunner] [ In reply to ]
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"Page 9, point 7:
"7. Wetsuits must be 5mm thick or less.""

ah, silly me for looking for a rule in the rules section ;-)

TABLE OF CONTENTS
Message from the Race Director..............................................................3
Message from the Head Referee..............................................................4
Schedule of Events................................................................................5
Pre-Race Information.............................................................................6
Race Day Information............................................................................7
Swim Course........................................................................................9
Bike Course..........................................................................................10
Bike Shipping & Bike Tech Information.....................................................13
Run Course..........................................................................................15
Course Maps........................................................................................16
Rules..................................................................................................18
Medical...............................................................................................21
Post-Race Information..........................................................................23
Qualifying for the 2010 Foster Grant Ironman World Championship 70.3
& the 2010 Ford Ironman World Championship.........................................24
Sponsors.............................................................................................25


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Quote Reply
Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [M~] [ In reply to ]
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Why are the WTC corporate overlords dictating this? Do they have an axe to grind with Emilio?
Last edited by: xcsnail: Feb 9, 10 11:30
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [M~] [ In reply to ]
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"If Emilio did his due diligence (and from what I read he did over a number of years) and ensured that this suit was in compliance with WTC/USAT rules and that they didn't see these rules changing and then all of a sudden a RD who is using USAT rules/insurance etc. decides they are illegal, I would have an issue with that."

so that you know: this is precisely what happened. a year ago and more, emilio called and asked me about wetsuit legality, and, specifically the question of this sort of suit. i told him what i tell every manufacturer (and there have been a lot of these sorts of phone calls to me), and this advice i give has stood me in good stead for better than a decade: call charlie. this emilio did. several times over the course of several months.

what now we see is this: i can't give that advice any longer; and wtc no longer asks usat for rule dispensations; it makes up whatever rules it wants, when it wants.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [M~] [ In reply to ]
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I agree completely and I hope everything turns out all right for him.

As to local race directors just imposing whatever rules they may want, or having rules change, it just sucks, not only for the merchants in our industry, but for those of us in the market for tri gear. If Calif 70.3 does impose this rule, it is definitely not good for our sport.

Here's another analogy. For many years 5 rear cogs was the standard on a bike. (Yes, I'm that old.) When 6 gears became available, what if the race director of a major race declared that more than 5 speeds is against the rules, even when the governing body had decided against such a declaration. At least that rule would be enforceable since it is far easier to count cogs than to measure wetsuit thickness.

Being in the market for my first new wetsuit, I'm looking to get the fastest one legal. What do I buy? I don't know anymore what is legal and what isn't, or if what is legal now will be legal next year.

Victor

================================
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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i would be very interested hearing the story behind this rule change. If the WTC is globally changing this to all their races, I am done with them, for good.
I will be happy to hear this is a one off thing.
Mark
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [M~] [ In reply to ]
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Is it WTC doing it globally or is is just the local RD (Roch and Huddle?) unilaterally deciding this? Or did the guys printing the athlete guide just assume that the wetsuit thickness is 5 mm, because for most, that is the general perception even though USAT has no limits.

If there is a 5mm limite I want the QRoo VPB measured up as well as some of the 2XU suits. No point singling out Emilio on this issue...there are other parties who are perhaps equally "guilty" of going passed the 5 mm rule and driving up the buoyancy of their suits, but they keep it somewhat under the radar with marketing speak rather than spitting out the actual panel thickness.

Dev
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting thoughts. I would email the RD's and specificially ask them for complete list of approved wetsuits and the list of wetsuits that do not meet their criteria. How else would the rule be enforced?

USAT makes it easy for Helmets, look for the sticker. How do I know if my 4 year websuit meets this criteria of 5MM, beats me? Do I rip it apart and measure a select sections and patch it back up?
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [Karl] [ In reply to ]
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Large areas of the Water Rover are constructed of 2mm rubber. On the pullover for instance, the entire torso and shoulders are 2mm rubber. On the bibjohn from the straps to the crotch, front and back are 2mm rubber. Certain areas of the wetsuit are constructed with 5, 8, and 10mm rubber. The 5mm rule only applies if the entire suit is constructed of 5mm+ rubber

The AmericanPeople have determined that the Water Rover is legal for all USAT and WTC races. Don’t worry about it. Enjoy your race.


**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [M~] [ In reply to ]
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i would be very interested hearing the story behind this rule change. If the WTC is globally changing this to all their races, I am done with them, for good.

Please tell this stance has more to do with the "selectively changing rules on a whim" issue, rather than not being allowed to wear a 7mm wettie?



blood, sweat...and big gears

I hated every minute of training, but I said, ''Don't quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.''
- Muhammad Ali
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [M~] [ In reply to ]
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If the WTC is globally changing this to all their races, I am done with them, for good.
______________________

I'll apologize in advance .... but I thought you were already through with them and didn't do their races anymore???? Maybe you hadn't said "for good" previously and I just missed that???

Dave:-)
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [dcsxtri10] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
If the WTC is globally changing this to all their races, I am done with them, for good.
______________________

I'll apologize in advance .... but I thought you were already through with them and didn't do their races anymore???? Maybe you hadn't said "for good" previously and I just missed that???

Dave:-)

I did race Lake Placid last year as part of a charity (Race4Kids.ca). I would still someday like to go back to that particular race and race well at it but some key areas of the race will have to change before I do.
Something like this would likely seal the deal for me though. But I will certainly reserve that kind of judgement until I hear the whole story.
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [M~] [ In reply to ]
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For most of the world, there is already a maximum thickness of 5mm. So are the WTC, simply ensuring that their rules are consistent in all their races around the world?
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [Philb] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
For most of the world, there is already a maximum thickness of 5mm. So are the WTC, simply ensuring that their rules are consistent in all their races around the world?

That's a pretty global statement. Have you seen "most of the world's" rule books? Not saying you aren't correct but that's a pretty big sweeping statement.
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [Philb] [ In reply to ]
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Yep. Just look at different 70.3 rulebooks readily available online.

___________________________________________
Ego numquam pronuncio mendacium,
sed sum homo salvaticus
Last edited by: de-tri-mental: Feb 9, 10 12:17
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
The above post should be done in pink....
Dev

I think the only thing E_moto 'does' in pink are cheerleaders...

cheers
S.

// qui audet adipiscitur
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [de-tri-mental] [ In reply to ]
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other questions include, what about wearing multiple wetsuits that are each 5MM??? seems that would be legal. If not what about all those people that were 2XU elite speed suits that have a very slim sliver of neoprene at the hips.... there total thickness would then be 5.1MM.
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Is it WTC doing it globally or is is just the local RD (Roch and Huddle?) unilaterally deciding this? Or did the guys printing the athlete guide just assume that the wetsuit thickness is 5 mm, because for most, that is the general perception even though USAT has no limits.

If there is a 5mm limit I want the QRoo VPB measured up as well as some of the 2XU suits. No point singling out Emilio on this issue...there are other parties who are perhaps equally "guilty" of going passed the 5 mm rule and driving up the buoyancy of their suits, but they keep it somewhat under the radar with marketing speak rather than spitting out the actual panel thickness.

Dev

Great point.
Brings up the question, that/since the athlete is allowed to wear their bike/run uniform under their wetsuit, then a racer could elect to wear a 5mm "cheater" under their wetsuit, and then elect in transition to not wear it (for whatever reason ). This would sidestep the thickness issue entirely, since it is not a wetsuit, nor is it attached to set wetsuit/tri-suit. it is simply a garment or undergarment.

hmmmmmm........



persequetur vestra metas furiose
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [E_moto] [ In reply to ]
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I think having to peel off two suits instead of just one would negate most of the benefits of doubling up..
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [justsomeguy] [ In reply to ]
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good point. also a good point made in post #97.

Additionally: If I put on said 5mm suit, and once wearing the garb, it stretches and in doing so now measures 4.9mm. it is now legal. because it is now thinner than 5mm.



persequetur vestra metas furiose
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
If there is a 5mm limite I want the QRoo VPB measured up as well as some of the 2XU suits. No point singling out Emilio on this issue...there are other parties who are perhaps equally "guilty" of going passed the 5 mm rule and driving up the buoyancy of their suits, but they keep it somewhat under the radar with marketing speak rather than spitting out the actual panel thickness.

I would bet Emilo has this data and if his wetsuits get banned, he'll be the first to provide it to WTC.

================================
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [E_moto] [ In reply to ]
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E_moto makes a ton points that I completely agree with. When I'm not training/racing tri's I play golf which is a sport I see the sport of triathlon following in growth/popularity/technology.

When plastics, steel and titanium entered the golf game the arms race to bigger, faster, longer, straighter was on and the two fighting governing bodies(the USGA and Europe Royal and Ancient Golf, R&A) couldn't agree on ball size, club size, grooves and until they came to terms you had people all over the world scrambling every year to buy the newest and best until the rules were finally set to stop the craziness(anyone who bought a $500 callaway ERC II driver feels the water rover peoples pain).

Nutshell: They finally agreed on a set of standards that the world follows and if they make any changes in rules they don't go into affect until the following year. It would be nice to see USAT and WTC adopt a similar mentality because it will only help athletes and manufacturers which in turn allows the sport to focus on growth and popularity.

And much like golf, regardless the outcome you will always have people with the disposible income and loose morals to buy the fastest or skirt a rule here or there. You just have to accept that and play the game to best of your training and ability.

***
Up Up Down Down Left Right Left Right B A B A
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Quintana Roo VPB and the Superfull wetsuit [ In reply to ]
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As the designer of the 2010 QR Wetsuits, I can assure you that we are using a 5 mm neoprene from Yamamoto. What we actually do is use a 3 mm neoprene panel on the outside of the leg sewn to (not over) a 5 mm panel on the inside of the leg. There is no deception, sorry for the confusion. I hope this helps clarify the questions posted.

___________________________
Mac McEneaney


Last edited by: Mac McE: Feb 9, 10 12:54
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Until someone has proven the QR is 5 or under, based on their own website posting, it seems fair to assume it is over 5. With this assumption, I have asked many times before, why are folks not going after QR and their VPB, like they are going after the WR?

WOW...you are unbelievable!

BTW, you need to wipe your chin...



blood, sweat...and big gears

I hated every minute of training, but I said, ''Don't quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.''
- Muhammad Ali
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Re: Quintana Roo VPB and the Superfull wetsuit [Mac McE] [ In reply to ]
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So can you defintitively say that none of the 2007-2009 QR VPB wetsuits were not over 5 mm in the VPB section? We'll take your word for it, however, you only mentioned 2010. I can actually see how your concept would work by not inhibiting the hips from rolling when incased in a lot of thick rubber, yet keeping the middle of the core riding high.
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [E_moto] [ In reply to ]
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Though a quick dunk in water could deem it a flotation device.
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Re: Quintana Roo VPB and the Superfull wetsuit [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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I didn't design the previous 2007-2009 VPB suits, so I didn't comment on them. Nevertheless, the way the suits are sewn together (a method called blindstitching) is identical. There is no overlap. Your observation of the way it works is accurate. Better swimmers can feel it right away, novice swimmers swim better but don't quite understand how.

___________________________
Mac McEneaney


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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Dan, if your comment is true that WTC no longer follows the dispensation process with USAT, sure seems like Skip would consider taking away the ability of WTC to be "USAT certified". When I go to a USAT race, I am expecting the same rules. If this is not the case, and USAT allows this, then I guess the USAT brand does not mean much.

As other have stated, it really is the pits when we see the honesty in our sport, it is not about customers, it is money and power. I know I have talked to Skip many times over the years why our sport does not seem to be able to work together to have one set of rules. I guess the answer is easy, follow the money.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
Quote Reply
Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [running2far] [ In reply to ]
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Its an odd rule because it can't be enforced. You can sport check looking for the water rover design on the chest, but what about T1 tops and water rovers bottoms?
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [DamonHenry] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Though a quick dunk in water could deem it a flotation device.

potentially that is true, but I can tuck 2 of those " blue/white/blue/white/blue/white" pull buoys into my arm pits (1 under each arm), and still walk across the bottom of the lap pool at boys n girls club with no problem (Solana beach).

And while those clearly are flotation devices with the intent of being flotation devices......when I use one it does not perform its job per the manufacturers intention. Instead, it just looks funny.

My point being: 1 person in a 3mm suit could see much greater flotation benefit than another person in a 5mm suit, since buoyancy of the suit and wearer yields relevancy.



persequetur vestra metas furiose
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [Torps] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
I think having to peel off two suits instead of just one would negate most of the benefits of doubling up..

Being I am skinny, sink like a rock and HATE cold water, I'll try anything. I sink in a normal 2-3mm wetsuit, so I recently purchased a 5mm ProMotion Afterburner (with thigh inserts). I don't know how many of you are under 5% body fat and swim in 50-55 degree water, but even 5mm isn't enough for me to stay warm.

I have worn two 2-3mm wetsuits when practicing and the combo was very fast and warm. It was a lot of fun too, but the limited range in the shoulders forced me to come up with a better solution. I stiched 2 pieces of 3mm neoprene together and placed it in front. It gave my old QR 9mm and for the first time I didn't have to vigorously tread water to keep my head up in an open water start.

I do float in the ProMotion (barely), and have not raced with the extra 6mm yet.

Basically, with the extra flotation I sit in the water like most of the other athletes. So if over 5mm is banned I think they should also ban athletes over 10% body fat ;)

____________________________________________
I only believe what I read when I agree with it...
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [AmericanPeople] [ In reply to ]
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Acutally, great question.

"Wetsuits must be 5mm thick or less."

So, for you lawyers out there, what does this mean? All or part? Average, etc. ??

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
Quote Reply
Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [E_moto] [ In reply to ]
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Alright, I am really starting to wonder why Emilio hasn't jumped in the thread yet....not that he has to but I would be interested to hear what he has been hearing about this
Quote Reply
Re: Quintana Roo VPB and the Superfull wetsuit [Mac McE] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
As the designer of the 2010 QR Wetsuits, I can assure you that we are using a 5 mm neoprene from Yamamoto. What we actually do is use a 3 mm neoprene panel on the outside of the leg sewn to (not over) a 5 mm panel on the inside of the leg. There is no deception, sorry for the confusion. I hope this helps clarify the questions posted.

I probably don't understand how this works. If 3mm is sewn to 5mm, don't you get 8mm?

================================
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [running2far] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Its an odd rule because it can't be enforced. You can sport check looking for the water rover design on the chest, but what about T1 tops and water rovers bottoms?

That's exactly what I would do if I were so inclined to get another suit anyway.
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Re: Quintana Roo VPB and the Superfull wetsuit [Bell Head] [ In reply to ]
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The edges of the panels are glued together, then blindstitched. they are not overlapped. It is the same exeact process for joining a shoulder to a chest panel or joining a calf panel to a knee panel. There is no trickery or deception. I promise.

___________________________
Mac McEneaney


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Re: Quintana Roo VPB and the Superfull wetsuit [Bell Head] [ In reply to ]
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That is what I thought initially...posted the same thing you did and then deleted...I think he was meaning 3mm on the inside of your leg (inner thigh) and then 5mm on the top of your leg (front thigh)...I think
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [djciii] [ In reply to ]
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Seems like unless he has an answer as to what is going on, what would he say? If WTC has the legal right to do whatever they want, ignoring the rules on how to work with USAT, etc. again, what would you do in his shoes?
Who I am much more interested in hearing from is Jimmy, and WTC. Is this real? Is this a total WTC rule now, our up to each RD to make their own rules? Did they totally ignore working with USAT? If so, why do they even use them anymore, since it would look like it no longer means anything to us as racers. What were they trying to solve by doing this? Why did they not just totally ban wetsuits if some in WTC think a wetsuit is cheating. Is WTC making sure no other wetsuit make at any time by any other mfg has no parts over 5mm. Etc.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
Quote Reply
Re: Quintana Roo VPB and the Superfull wetsuit [Bell Head] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In Reply To:
In Reply To:
As the designer of the 2010 QR Wetsuits, I can assure you that we are using a 5 mm neoprene from Yamamoto. What we actually do is use a 3 mm neoprene panel on the outside of the leg sewn to (not over) a 5 mm panel on the inside of the leg. There is no deception, sorry for the confusion. I hope this helps clarify the questions posted.


I probably don't understand how this works. If 3mm is sewn to 5mm, don't you get 8mm?

No. Not on top of each other, rather at the seam 3mm butts up to 5mm.

____________________________________________
I only believe what I read when I agree with it...
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Re: Quintana Roo VPB and the Superfull wetsuit [Bell Head] [ In reply to ]
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What part of SEWN TO (NOT OVER) are you not getting?
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [AmericanPeople] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
The 5mm rule only applies if the entire suit is constructed of 5mm+ rubber


Nonsense. Go back to The Lavender Room where people understand you.

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Quintana Roo VPB and the Superfull wetsuit [djciii] [ In reply to ]
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No, I think he means what he wrote. 5 mm between the legs, 3 mm on the sides. That way can swivel your hips around the middle which is riding high, without having the rubber that is outside of the hips pushing your hips back up. You want your crotch to ride high, but want to be able to swivel around your centreline like pencil. The designed of the VPB is claiming that this is what his suit enables. Its more of a case of the correct amount of rubber in the right places (as Emilio has done with Water Rover, but in different places).

I have an old 2006 Superfull without VPB and if I recall correctly, in the regions mentioned it is all 5 mm, so it sounds like they "took away" rubber in some places to enable more natural body motion....Mac, correct me if I am wrong....also you said that you are using 5 mm neoprene from Yamamoto...I know I'm putting you on the hot seat, but is 5 mm neoprene from Yamamoto 5mm in width ? I bet it goes over 5 mm. I may be wrong, but if it is over 5mm, many suits become illegal, not just Water Rover.

Dev
Last edited by: devashish_paul: Feb 9, 10 13:44
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Re: Quintana Roo VPB and the Superfull wetsuit [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Oh, well that makes sense....thanks.
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [djciii] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Alright, I am really starting to wonder why Emilio hasn't jumped in the thread yet....not that he has to but I would be interested to hear what he has been hearing about this

What would he say?

Thank you for acknowledging the superiority of DeSoto gear. Our new Logo for 2011 will read:

DeSoto: our wetsuits are so good, even your competition will get their panties in a wad.

(see, where I was going with that was: you put on a tight wetsuit and sometimes it makes your panties go up your crack, and then the parallel I drew was that the Desoto suit was so good.......that it'll really upset the wearers of other wetsuit brands, but instead of "upset", i used the euphemism of getting their panties in a wad........get it?!)



persequetur vestra metas furiose
Quote Reply
Re: Quintana Roo VPB and the Superfull wetsuit [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Yes Dev, you are right - we took away thickness in specific areas of the upper leg. The way we went about it was to change the panel configuration of the suits.

___________________________
Mac McEneaney


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Re: Quintana Roo VPB and the Superfull wetsuit [Mac McE] [ In reply to ]
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4200 views in less than 24 hours. 10,000 by tomorrow.

I think the Rover being banned may be the best thing to happen to Desoto....

It only needs to be legal in a handfull of races and they'll sell out their inventory from this thread alone.

I mean, it's gotta be super fast if they are banning the thing.....
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Re: Quintana Roo VPB and the Superfull wetsuit [cusetri] [ In reply to ]
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Look at it this way: it will only be illegal at a few dozen US races, leaving it legal at hundreds of others, right?

Here's my burning question. Can I still wear compression socks during the swim?
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [djciii] [ In reply to ]
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"I am really starting to wonder why Emilio hasn't jumped in the thread yet"

he has not because i asked him not to. i've talked to a lot of people over the past few hours, at IM, USAT, and elsewhere. i'm not sure that everything that has been done at IM's level has been with the knowledge and assent of everyone at IM who needs to be a part of the decision.

i wouldn't assume that any decision is set in stone. i would look for a possible clarification of this rule. don't get me wrong, i think this rule is probably here to stay. or rather "there" to say. it is my guess you might be able to use your water rovers and your speedskins up through a particular date. if so, i don't know when that date might be.

i'll keep you all informed.

the reason i asked emilio to just cool his heels on participating on this thread is because i can't say that i know what the rules are yet, for sure (notwithstanding their publication on ironman california's website).


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [Just Old Again] [ In reply to ]
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The 5mm rule only applies if the entire suit is constructed of 5mm+ rubber

I’ll bet if Obama read that off a teleprompter you wouldn’t have a problem with it.....

Don’t go gettin’ all sassy with the AmericanPeople!!

The “Rule” is very clear: it speaks only of 5mm thickness of the wetsuit. Since a large surface area (50% + perhaps?) of the Water Rover is constructed of rubber that is 2mm thick, the Water Rover is clearly within the rules and is allowable to wear in the race. 2mm is less thick than 5mm, right?

Now, if the person who made this new rule was trying to go after the Water Rover, at the outset, the rule would have read “No portion of the wetsuit can have a thickness greater than 5mm.” But that’s not what it says. If they were to go back and re-write the rule that way, one could argue that the rules are punitive and are written by vindictive socialists, who are trying to stifle innovation and destroy capitalism.

Obviously, I am needed here in the Main Forum as much as I am needed in the LR.


**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the update..that makes perfect sense
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Also if the new rules are continued to all WTC races, current swim skins such as the Pointzero3 at races like Florida 70.3 or Kona would also be banned (textile rule). I think that's a much more significant rules change...
Last edited by: Uncle Phil: Feb 9, 10 14:59
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Emilio should get a whole whack of competitor wetsuits made of Yamamoto 5mm rubber and take the calipers to them and video the process and post on youtube...that should provide sufficient justification for the Water Rover to remain legal as I bet all the other suits get instantly thrown out as soon as the measurement is executed....I'd love to be proven wrong but lots of suits look thicker than 5 mm today even though they use "5 mm rubber" :-)
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Just looked the diagram on Desoto's webiste. At the ankle and wrist, the Water Rover is 5mm in thickness. Take the drawing away and I assume there is no way anyone could verify the suit wasn't 5mm in other places.
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [Uncle Phil] [ In reply to ]
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"if the new rules are continued to all WTC races, current swim skins such as the Pointzero3 at races like Florida 70.3 or Kona. I think that's a much more significant rules change."

the issues are these (italics mine):

1. ironman says this about rules: "USA Triathlon (USAT) has sanctioned the 2010 Rohto Ironman 70.3 California. Please visit usatriathlon. org for a complete set of the competitive rules. Ironman has been granted certain rule dispensations so please read the following information carefully as the rules may differ slightly from other USAT sanctioned events." so, is it now making up its own rules? i can't find anyone at USAT (and i've asked everyone relevant) who granted dispensation. but, this might be one side of ironman not knowing what the other side is doing. i'm trying to find out whether this was a tactical error, a ministerial error on one side or the other, or just a thumbing one's nose at the sanctioning body. i don't know yet.

2. who does a manufacturer go to nowadays to find out if his products are legal? it used to be charlie crawford. obviously, now that very easy, very unlike-cycling, very reliable step our manufacturers can take is now no longer there for those of us in our sport.

3. every time there's been a technical equipment change in cycling, swimming or triathlon, there's been a sunsetting period. this might even last several years, as has been the recent case with usa cycling adopting uci tech rules. is ironman ditching this tradition? or not?

i don't know the answers. in general, i trust ironman to do the fair, the honorable, the safe, thing. i expect news shortly.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Something like this could bankrupt DeSoto,

Emilio must have invested several hundred thousand $ in research, development, rubber, labor, shipping and marketing.
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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I swam in a qr for the testing. If my memory serves me correct, when I was inspecting the suits I can't recall it being thicker then 5mm. I was under the impression the the VPB was more of how the suits were patterned rather then a thickness issue.

I want facts for this not innuendo. The QR is a nice suit though.

EDIT: I'm still in the field borrowing access and didn't read the entire thread until after posting.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Last edited by: desert dude: Feb 9, 10 14:35
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [xcsnail] [ In reply to ]
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"Something like this could bankrupt DeSoto, Emilio must have invested several hundred thousand $ in research, development, rubber, labor, shipping and marketing."

no, and yes. de soto is a surprisingly strong company, financially, if you look at its strength relative to its size. i can think of a lot of much larger apparel companies that this might bankrupt. not de soto.

but you're right about the several hundred thousand dollar investment.

that said, i don't think you should assume anything about the rules published, either regarding wetsuit thicknesses or about swimskins. watch for an article on the slowtwitch home page, as soon as i get a little more confirmation of what in the Wide Wide World of Wetstuits is going on.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [xcsnail] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Something like this could bankrupt DeSoto,

Emilio must have invested several hundred thousand $ in research, development, rubber, labor, shipping and marketing.

HIGHLY doubtful. I would suspect that they would lose a certain percentage of purchases via the Tri community, but having a suit so hot that its banned in some places makes it inherently more desirable in every other area.

"what.........that suit is so fast its illegal at Oceanside........DAMN.......gimme THAT one for sure!~"



persequetur vestra metas furiose
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [E_moto] [ In reply to ]
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HIGHLY doubtful. I would suspect that they would lose a certain percentage of purchases via the Tri community, but having a suit so hot that its banned in some places makes it inherently more desirable in every other area.

I officially name this the "Finman's Law".

-Jot


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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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"this might even last several years, as has been the recent case with usa cycling adopting uci tech rules."

Yeah, we always have to try to do things different from the rest of the world because we think we are so much better and smarter, just to later come to the conclusion that in fact we are not.
But at least we did it OUR OWN long winded, confusing, costly and wasteful WAY.

So just cut to the chase, make IMs draft legal and apply ITU rules.

DONE.









___________________________________________
Ego numquam pronuncio mendacium,
sed sum homo salvaticus
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [Philb] [ In reply to ]
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I have chatted with Emilio a few times. What I liked about him is that he is so passionate for the sport. This is a pretty crappy thing to happen, must feel like he is being stabbed in the back.

I really liked the fact that he was not afraid to bring innovation to the sport. I think innovation is what the sport has always had a strong base in.
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [gamebofh] [ In reply to ]
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HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHA!



persequetur vestra metas furiose
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [xcsnail] [ In reply to ]
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possibly true but look at all the people that have been brought to the door-step of desoto.... It forced a bunch of people who were one-piece users to consider a two-pieces. Regardless of what happens more people know of desoto now and specifically their unique two-piece design.
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I wonder if Emilio could have enough of a case for a lawsuit if he was told by USAT that this would be allowed.

Why don't they just say no 5mm + wetsuits for pro/elite and let the AG'r wear what they want
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [ In reply to ]
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Looks like there were modifications to the athletes guide.
From the athletes guide page 9.
"6. Wetsuits are allowed if the water is less than 76.1 degrees Fahrenheit (24.5 degrees Centigrade) or
colder. Athletes who choose to wear a wetsuit in water that is above the allowable temperature will not
be eligible for awards or qualification spots.
7. Any assistance required during the swim will result in disqualification..."

Nothing related to wetsuit thickness
http://www.ironmancalifornia.com/2010IMCHAI.pdf
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [gamebofh] [ In reply to ]
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Extreme suit thickness might be banned because it's perceived as damaging WTC's image, and thus business, regardless of how slow or fast a suit actually is.

If Desoto in fact did due diligence, I would hope that any WTC rule change takes effect in 2011 so as not to unnecessarily harm Desoto. The company is an valuable part of the triathlon community.
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [BrzilianTri] [ In reply to ]
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Wow,

Can I put in the request to have the drafting rules taken out?

Whom do I have to arm-wrestle for that? Let me know....

What a circus!

___________________________________________
Ego numquam pronuncio mendacium,
sed sum homo salvaticus
Last edited by: de-tri-mental: Feb 9, 10 15:19
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [BrzilianTri] [ In reply to ]
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That was fast. Emilio must have someone's ear over there
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [ChrisM] [ In reply to ]
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My guess is that someone writing the athlete guide for Oceanside just wrote that "thinking it was the rule" but without actually verifying that there is in fact NO USAT rule.
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
My guess is that someone writing the athlete guide for Oceanside just wrote that "thinking it was the rule" but without actually verifying that there is in fact NO USAT rule.


That would not surprise me one bit. One thing I was going to post is that these athlete guides are reused from year to year (and probably race to race on occasion), and sometimes there are glaring errors in them.
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [BrzilianTri] [ In reply to ]
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So my stupid question for the night is why is it 76.1 deg and not 78?

Grant
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [ChrisM] [ In reply to ]
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So I guess, thanks to those damned foreigners who either don't own a water rover or compete at the 70.3's abroad, I now got a better shot at the 70.3 "national" championship race....

Thanks, but no thanks!

___________________________________________
Ego numquam pronuncio mendacium,
sed sum homo salvaticus
Last edited by: de-tri-mental: Feb 9, 10 15:50
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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the story's loading up on the home page. bottom line: both prohibitions (5mm and speedskin) have been rescinded.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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"rescinded" indicates it was a valid rule. I'd love to hear what happened to get it rescinded in 24 hours...... (it might be in your story, it wouldn't link when I went there,.... eta linked, it's not discussed, just says "no ban is in place")
Last edited by: ChrisM: Feb 9, 10 16:08
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [gamebofh] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
HIGHLY doubtful. I would suspect that they would lose a certain percentage of purchases via the Tri community, but having a suit so hot that its banned in some places makes it inherently more desirable in every other area.

I officially name this the "Finman's Law".

-Jot



Dear Spoilsport,

Can I have my business plan back?

Sincerely,

Robinhood Golf Balls
Ping Eye 2 Sand Wedges
Aluminum Baseball Bats and
Ground Effects Skirts



------------------

- I do all my own stunts
Quote Reply
Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I submit, regardless of the pending dispensations, this little dustup for the Oceanside 70.3 has damaged DeSoto and adversely impacted their sales of the Water Rover. Who wouldn't think again now on pulling the trigger on a WR purchase.
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [Al P Duez] [ In reply to ]
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I submit, regardless of the pending dispensations, this little dustup for the Oceanside 70.3 has damaged DeSoto and adversely impacted their sales of the Water Rover.//

What world do you live in?? The wetsuit was not banned because it was not pretty enough..I've swam in the thing, and it is by far the fastest, warmest, and most comfortable suit I have ever worn..All this pressure to get it banned is just for those reasons, just like they tried to ban the fibreglass vasulting pole many years ago.. At the very least, folks will get a full season out of the suit, and I believe even more likely, they will leave this thing alone like Charlie said all along..Too hard to enforce, and this suit is already bumping up against the advantage wall..People pay $45,000 for ironman slots, and $3 grand for community slots..I think that there are plenty of competitors that will pay $600 for a distinct advantage in the water, even if for only one season.. I think you really got it backwards, this whole dustup will bring attention to the WR, and there will be more sales than otherwise would have been..

And let us not forget that DeSoto is the most honorable company out there, past or present, and I'm sure that no one was going to be hung out to dry so to speak.. Emilio's customers are more than just credit cards that go through that month. He treats them like family, and in return they become loyal like family..Too bad more companies do not adopt that attitude, would make for a lot less stress in our big purchases...
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [monty] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
I submit, regardless of the pending dispensations, this little dustup for the Oceanside 70.3 has damaged DeSoto and adversely impacted their sales of the Water Rover.//

What world do you live in?? The wetsuit was not banned because it was not pretty enough..I've swam in the thing, and it is by far the fastest, warmest, and most comfortable suit I have ever worn..All this pressure to get it banned is just for those reasons, just like they tried to ban the fibreglass vasulting pole many years ago.. At the very least, folks will get a full season out of the suit, and I believe even more likely, they will leave this thing alone like Charlie said all along..Too hard to enforce, and this suit is already bumping up against the advantage wall..People pay $45,000 for ironman slots, and $3 grand for community slots..I think that there are plenty of competitors that will pay $600 for a distinct advantage in the water, even if for only one season.. I think you really got it backwards, this whole dustup will bring attention to the WR, and there will be more sales than otherwise would have been..

And let us not forget that DeSoto is the most honorable company out there, past or present, and I'm sure that no one was going to be hung out to dry so to speak.. Emilio's customers are more than just credit cards that go through that month. He treats them like family, and in return they become loyal like family..Too bad more companies do not adopt that attitude, would make for a lot less stress in our big purchases...

X a gazillion.
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [Al P Duez] [ In reply to ]
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I disagree, USAT still has no rule and even if ironman wants to change the rules that are sanctioned by USAT they have to get approved. Normally USAT only approve a rule if it is safer for competitors. In this case i doubt they would say banning a wetsuit that provides more floatation would be safer for competitors.

I still don't see the issue. If you can't race with one where you live dont buy one, if you can decide if you want to or not.

I have both because of worlds, but MOST people in the US don't need to worry about the wetsuit being banned.

Grant
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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It is wise for Emilio not to have responded (good advice, Dan). It does sound like he was not informed about a rule change or consulted about it (not that the WTC needs to consult with anyone). I hope Emilio gets an opportunity to discuss with the "right people" and get a full explanation- if there is one at this point. You are right-time will be needed to get this figured out.
Emilio, if you are reading-hang in there. Thanks for making many great products and for your extraordinary customer service.
While I do think wetsuits give an unfair aid to us slower swimmers, I know how important they are. I remember in the mid 1980's in Santa Barbara barely making a 1 mile swim (reduced from 1.2 because of the cold water) because of the cold water. NO WETSUITS allowed back then. I had hypothermia and sat in transition for 20 minutes with my teeth chattering uncontrollably. Never even got on the bike.
How thick is "fair/necessary/not just cheating? The tri gods have not decided- I guess.

Team Zoot So Cal
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [monty] [ In reply to ]
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I am a huge DeSoto fan, and Emilio, and you are high if you don't think the specter of a real ban being raised at Oceanside will not adversely impact his sales. All those Oceanside registrants with WRs were seriously questioning their purchase today and probably still are.
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [Al P Duez] [ In reply to ]
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Well that real ban turned out not to be too real I guess..I would suppose all those folks that bought WR's are very happy right now, especially if they are in the Oceanside race, which usually has sub 55 degree water.. Like I said, if it goes bad right away, which from Dan's article looks very unlikely, I would look for a real compromise from a company like DeSoto towards it's customers, one that would make everyone happy..Any other company and I would agree with you, but not DeSoto...
Last edited by: monty: Feb 9, 10 16:42
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [Al P Duez] [ In reply to ]
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I guess this puts to rest the question as to whether or not Emilio is actually Tyler Durden.



persequetur vestra metas furiose
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [Al P Duez] [ In reply to ]
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In preparation for his 2011 Kona appearance, Lance Armstrong, in cooperation with Yamamoto, a top Japanese neoprene manufacturer has been developing a hybrid kayak/wetsuit, code named the Water Banana, that is fully compliant with present wetsuit rules.


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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Well said Monty. I was thinking of fiberglass poles too when I read this.
Triathlon has always been a leader in innovation.
I do think at some point we are just getting thicker wetsuits to go faster. We, the tri community, need to make rules. It sounds like we need continue the discussion.

Team Zoot So Cal
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [monty] [ In reply to ]
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I agree Emilio is good for it if it goes bad. I maintain DeSoto has already been damaged to some degree by WTCs faux pas.

BTW, I do pretty well and do not buy a wetsuit every year.
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [E_moto] [ In reply to ]
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"Fuck off with your sofa units and strine green stripe patterns, I say never be complete, I say stop being perfect, I say let... lets evolve, let the chips fall where they may."
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [Rick in the D] [ In reply to ]
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Dear Rick in the D:

All your base are belong to us.

Sincerely -

The UCI
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [draketriathlon] [ In reply to ]
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So my stupid question for the night is why is it 76.1 deg and not 78?

Because everyone knows it doesn't matter for Oceanside, it's going to be colder than that.

I believe the average temperature at Oceanside is categorized by the NOAA as: "Shriviling".

-Jot


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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [Al P Duez] [ In reply to ]
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EMILIO:
You're not going to continue your
"rigorous investigation." You will
publicly state that there is no
Rule. Or -- imagine,
the rest of your life with your
scrotum flapping empty.

THEM
(mouth taped)
... no... please, no...

EMILIO
We'll send one to Competitor Magazine
and one to the Triathlete.
Press release style. Your nuts will
be bicoastal. Understood? The
people you're after are everyone you
depend on.
(more)

EMILIO (cont)
We do your laundry, cook your food
and serve you dinner. We guard you
while you sleep. We drive your
ambulances. Do not f**k with us.



persequetur vestra metas furiose
Last edited by: E_moto: Feb 9, 10 17:04
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [Al P Duez] [ In reply to ]
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I still do not get how you think DeSoto was damaged, either him personally or his company.. I think the damage if any, was done to WTC, but more specifically the Oceanside race..We are yet to know how it all went down, most likely at the local level given the quick turnaround of this one day rule. Rest assured heads will roll there, at the very least get a bitch slap. Really looks like someone made up a rule, did not run it by corporate, and certainly did not run it by USAT. I think there is definately a lesson here, hope it was learned. But as far as Emilio, he began his talk about this a long, long time ago here and with USAT. All was cleared, verbal oks were given, and he in good faith made his legal product. This was not quietly sprung onto us the tri community, or the governing bodies. What more could the guy have done, and the history of this incident just shows him as the good and honorable guy. There are many others out there that are having to take a hard look in their mirrors, but I gurantee you that Emilio is sleeping soundly tonight..

USAT and Ironman can both get out of this loop that seems to have no good end for them, it will be interesting to see if they take the high road...So far it looks as if they are at least heading upward..
Last edited by: monty: Feb 9, 10 17:06
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Mark, yep would love to hear how WTC got the 5mm in there rules. But as I just started a new thread, they replaced the 5mm and added the 76.1 which is worse. Talking to Charlie and Skip on this, they both just told me this was news to them. And I know first hand USAT will never lower the cut off from 78, I have tried. Skip is talking with Steve tomorrow on all this mess. What is interesting though is Dan's post implies that Steve states all these changes were already talked with USAT for months and implies they would agree. Something is missing here big time!!

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [monty] [ In reply to ]
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While I agree DeSoto's reputation isn't damaged, it does have the potential of damaging WR sales. A wetsuit purchase is an investment to me: I plan on swimming in it for 3-4 years at least. Hell, up till now, I've used that gray T1 you sold me a few years back. I'm guessing that thing is 6 years old.

Reading Dan's front page article, it seems unclear if thick wetsuits will be banned after September or January. If I purchase a WR this summer (which I had planned to do) and it gets banned before the summer of 2011...well I'll be swimming LP 2011 in an old gray T1.

Victor

================================
blog
twitter
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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for what it's worth--as a worried and confused Water Rover buyer, I've had a couple of PMs with Emillo and I have to say he is one righteous dude! I'm not smart enough to know what the rule should be or not--there are obviously many in this forum who are!--but I do know I'd like the rules to be clear and the process of setting them even clearer.

Obviously they are not today but one thing for sure, Emillo stands behind his customers and his products. You could do a lot worse than buy any of his prducts. Good on you Emillo. I'll keep my WR--not because of the rule thing but because of you! (that said, I do like the rule clarification--OC--here I come!!!)

Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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I still have 4 days I could send mine back since they are still in the boxes. I also was concerned about the comments from Steve in Dans article. It implies they plan to go forward with these changes. I have a tough time
spending this much money for something I might only be able to use for 1 year, and then not even be able to sell it. WTC now seems to be the group I have lost trust in. And based on what has happened, you would trust them to implement a drug testing program?

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
Quote Reply
Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [Al P Duez] [ In reply to ]
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"you are high if you don't think the specter of a real ban being raised at Oceanside will not adversely impact his sales"

the pole monty is talking about was made by sky pole. the olympic ban rocketed that company's sales, and they essentially rebranded the pole "the unfair advantage," which is what the IOC, or whoever banned it, called it.

that established, i think you're correct, in a certain sense. i think a lot of people are now wondering whether this will be a banned suit at some time in the future. no argument with you there.

but on another level, i think it was a positive thing for de soto, because, much or most of what makes the suit fast is not the thicker rubber. furthermore, i'm quite certain that if the water rover became illegal at the start of day tomorrow, the new rules would leave room for emilio to design the new, legal, practically-as-fast, de soto wetsuit by morning lunch break. then it's head-scratching, to see how to make his suit illegal without causing other suits to be caught up in the ban. i think that would probably make for a pretty good narrative, if you're de soto.

over here at slowtwitch editorial, rappstar comes down on the side of aquaman's one-piece, i come down on the side of de soto's first wave. that's each of our faves, personally. no secret there. i think this will probably raise de soto's visibility overall, but, yes, in the narrow category of the water rover's sales, i don't know what this will mean. it could go either way. i'm sure there are a lot of sales he won't get, maybe there are new sales he will get.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [monty] [ In reply to ]
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We are yet to know how it all went down, most likely at the local level given the quick turnaround of this one day rule.

The WTC knows that the wrath of the AmericanPeople is swift, overwhelming and furious......

This is a great day for innovation, capitalism, internet unrest, civil disobedience and social wetsuit justice!!

Glad it went down this way. DeSoto Sport is a First Class operation.

'Hat Tip' Karl for bringing it up and to Dan for getting it done.


**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman, a question for you...

If you could buy just one suit that had to last you at least three years for a variety of US based USAT and WTC races, would you buy a Water Rover or a First Wave?

Victor

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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [Bell Head] [ In reply to ]
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are the 70.3 people honestly going to enforce this; check everybody's wetsuit? I doubt it. I mean, somebody was able to swim an IM leg with Fins on! Just pick off the lettering on the suit. It will look just like every other black wetsuit. I seriously doubt some 70.3 volunteer is going to get a ruler out and measure the thickness of the chest panel

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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [Red Devil] [ In reply to ]
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So you recommend everyone cheats?!!

The problem comes when you get to Clearwater as most of the non-US races will have had a ban on wetsuits greater than 5mm. So are peole advocating that non-US triathletes must buy a WR so as to be competitive for one race a year? I can see what WTC where trying to do, create a level playing field across all of their races. I suspect it will happen sooner rather than later, they may have just gone about it the wrong way!!
Last edited by: Philb: Feb 10, 10 5:57
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [Red Devil] [ In reply to ]
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Just because one can cheat doesn't mean one should cheat. Sorry, but if the rule say nothing > 5mm I'm not going to knowingly wear a 10mm wetsuit.

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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [Bell Head] [ In reply to ]
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We all know no one has ever, or is cheating in our sport, we are 100% drug free. Just ask a few Pro's that have been caught about cheating. :o)

And or course, no one has ever violated the rules, no one has ever drafted, or thrown a gel pack or bottle on the side of the road, or passed on the right, or taken family members across the finish line, or, or or,.

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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I was referring to my own policy, not everybody's. I've not knowingly done any of those things, but clearly some people do and don't have a problem with it.

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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [Bell Head] [ In reply to ]
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"If you could buy just one suit that had to last you at least three years for a variety of US based USAT and WTC races, would you buy a Water Rover or a First Wave? "

first wave. that's not simply because a water rover may not be legal in three years, it's because most of what's fast, comfortable, etc., about a T1 is in the first wave. i have a water rover (i have one of just about everything), and i will most likely continue to swim in my first wave.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I couldn't agree more. You are one SMFIC. Now go get that tattooed on the inside of your bicep.
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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And here I thought you would be in a 2010 Superfull.

No problems with BlueSeventy Helix!!!
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [Al P Duez] [ In reply to ]
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"You are one SMFIC."

i'm the Sebewaing Mutual Fire Insurance Company?

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [gamebofh] [ In reply to ]
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LOTFL I haven't thought of that since like 1999.
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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So if you do have a WR, have swam in it, but will still just use your T1 which Mark says is slower, I wonder why?

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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"So if you do have a WR, have swam in it, but will still just use your T1 which Mark says is slower, I wonder why?"

i can't speak for monty. i'm very comfortable in my first wave, that suit doesn't alter my swim mechanics the way the water rover does, i'm going to be at or near the front of the swim in either suit (in my AG) and, finally, i'm 53 and i don't feel like haggling over the final second per 100yd of speed.

this isn't to denigrate the water rover. but it's like a muscle car with a big hemi engine and 400 horsepower but without the luxury elements. i'm more comfortable having the power windows and heated seats.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
"So if you do have a WR, have swam in it, but will still just use your T1 which Mark says is slower, I wonder why?"

i can't speak for monty. i'm very comfortable in my first wave, that suit doesn't alter my swim mechanics the way the water rover does, i'm going to be at or near the front of the swim in either suit (in my AG) and, finally, i'm 53 and i don't feel like haggling over the final second per 100yd of speed.

this isn't to denigrate the water rover. but it's like a muscle car with a big hemi engine and 400 horsepower but without the luxury elements. i'm more comfortable having the power windows and heated seats.

Dan...could you possibly elaborate what you mean by altering your swim mechanics. I think i have an idea but I want to be sure.
THanks
Mark
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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We have a saying from my third year thermodynamics class when discussing the carnot cycle...."there is no replacement for superior bore x stroke"...Dan you're not too old to give up the horsepower :-). Luxury is overrated :-)
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [M~] [ In reply to ]
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"could you possibly elaborate what you mean by altering your swim mechanics. I think i have an idea but I want to be sure."

the minute you put on a fullsuit, your stroke mechanics are altered. it's because of the flotation. that happens when you put on a suit with 1.5mm rubber over the arms. now imagine 8mm rubber over the arms.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
"could you possibly elaborate what you mean by altering your swim mechanics. I think i have an idea but I want to be sure."

the minute you put on a fullsuit, your stroke mechanics are altered. it's because of the flotation. that happens when you put on a suit with 1.5mm rubber over the arms. now imagine 8mm rubber over the arms.

That's why I was thinking in this case a WR bibjohn with a T1 top would likely be a perfect combo. Although with my T1 I already feel like my legs are barely in the water. :)
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [Bell Head] [ In reply to ]
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Thats kinda a silly premise. The WR is one of the most expensive wetsuits out there. No one should buy the most expensive anything for a hobby if they are that constained for $$.

Styrrell
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [M~] [ In reply to ]
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That's why I was thinking in this case a WR bibjohn with a T1 top would likely be a perfect combo. Although with my T1 I already feel like my legs are barely in the water. :)
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I was also thinking that reading Dan's post.


Train safe & smart
Bob

Last edited by: Longboarder: Feb 10, 10 21:04
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [M~] [ In reply to ]
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Dan...could you possibly elaborate what you mean by altering your swim mechanics. I think i have an idea but I want to be sure.

Mark,

Drop me a line and I can explain in full detail.

It's a key reason why you want to use less rubber on certain parts of the wetsuit!


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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A 10mm wetsuit? ...really? learn to swim! If you need a 10mm suit to get you thru a race you should not be participating in that race. Spend the time in training to lean to swim like most all triathletes do....."There is no easy way"




** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** **
If you aren't sweating you aren't having fun!
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [gabe0430] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
A 10mm wetsuit? ...really? learn to swim! If you need a 10mm suit to get you thru a race you should not be participating in that race. Spend the time in training to lean to swim like most all triathletes do....."There is no easy way"

Do you really think that way? If so we should get ban all areo goodies from the bike. Only round tubes, no carbon parts, no wheels deeper than 30 mm and no aero bars.

I mean if you can't bike without those things then you should not be participating in that race. Spend the time learning to bike like most triathletes do.... "There is no easy way"
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [xcsnail] [ In reply to ]
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I am torn between the 2 schools of thought. I like the new technology, faster "free" speed, but I also realize it is a money game. At what point did I get beat by a guy because he could afford a better wetsuit or bike? In the end it doesn't really matter, they are just new toys for the games we are into.
It would be interesting to see a race where all the competitors had the same equipment. However, even in the early 80's there were those with nice "pro" bikes and those with a borrowed Huffy. No cheating wetsuits allowed then--Men were men! damn cold some times too.
If I were a great swimmer, I would not like the new thick wetsuits. I think it is a bigger advantage for us slower swimmers.
I doubt we can hide the new technology too long. Triathletes really like spending money!

Team Zoot So Cal
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [xcsnail] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Quote:
A 10mm wetsuit? ...really? learn to swim! If you need a 10mm suit to get you thru a race you should not be participating in that race. Spend the time in training to lean to swim like most all triathletes do....."There is no easy way"

Do you really think that way? If so we should get ban all areo goodies from the bike. Only round tubes, no carbon parts, no wheels deeper than 30 mm and no aero bars.

I mean if you can't bike without those things then you should not be participating in that race. Spend the time learning to bike like most triathletes do.... "There is no easy way"


good one...

I shall never misuse Rex Kwon Do
I shall be a champion of freedom and justice
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