Who was saying having a good TTT team won't matter? Inability to bring mayo back up to the group pretty much killed him. Add another 2:30 in the TTT puts him close to 7 minutes behind already, devastating.

yeah, it appears that mayo is done for this year. what i couldn't quite figure out is whether it was simply poor timing of the crash--i.e. were t-mob, phonak, usps just beginning to lift when he went down or did they attack after hearing of his troubles? i thought there was an unspoken rule about not attacking when the guy goes down...

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f/k/a mclamb6

I think if Mayo had crashed they wouldn't have pushed it, but if you're sitting in the back and get gapped you're fair game.

"i thought there was an unspoken rule about not attacking when the guy goes down... "

I think it just goes to show who the classy riders are/aren't.

according to cyclingnews, it was phonak and t-mob that were pushing the pace the most. was ullrich taking a little revenge for zubeldia and mayo attempting to outsprint him for 2nd/3rd on the stage that armstrong won last year?

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f/k/a mclamb6

USPS as well.

From cyclingnews:

The Mayo group are coming back towards the leading bunch, but only slowly - it doesn't look as though they're going to get back before the second section of pave. T-Mobile, US Postal and Phonak are all working hard on the front (whatever happened to not attacking favourites who crash, I hear you ask - and have no answer).

a bit later, cyclingnews referenced that it was t-mob, phonak, and "to a lesser extent" usps riding tempo. on velonews, it sounded as if usps started pushing hard just before mayo hit the ground. if that's the case, i don't think it was wrong of usps, phonak, and t-mob to continue riding hard. if they attacked after he went down, well, that would be another story...

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f/k/a mclamb6

Actually tomorrow's time gaps are on a sliding scale which means his team would have to be dead last to get the 3 minute max gap.

The second place team can only lose 20 seconds, the third 40, the fourth 50, and so on...

www.procycling.com has more info on it.

Jaylew,



Don't you get it? USPS are supposed to be the good guys, how could they be working at the front?! ;-)

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"Yeah, no one likes a smartass, but we all like stars" - Thom Yorke


smartasscoach.tri-oeiras.com

The way Mayo's team looked in the chase, I don't rate their chances of finishing anywhere near the top of the TTT.

After reading the live report on Letour.com (much faster and better than cyclingnews), it seemd that USPS and TM were all pusing the pace before the first section of cobbles. Mayo went down just before the entrance. Some people who were caught behind the crash (like Roberto Heras, who went down) actually caught back to the Armstrong/Ullrich/Hamilton group. The cobbles are what really split the peloton. The group didn't accelerate, they just kept a harsh tempo even before the crash.

Rusty

Cm'on, USPS would never ever do something like this. The germans and swiss teams, those are the cold-blooded bad guys.

If you haven't seen the race yet, be sure to catch the coverage later today. No question the pace was going up as the peloton hit the cobbles, it's what happened after the first section of pave that has me wondering what the sportsman-like thing to do was. Watch the race.

ken

Yes, the Passage du Gois never happened.

If the reports are true that a USPS rider caused the crash, and that USPS pushed the tempo afterwards, it makes the team look very bad. I wonder if there is any chance of a Euskaltel rider taking out a USPS rider later on - kind of like pitchers trading hit batters in the majors.

I believe that only applies to the yellow jersey. at times you will see the peloton slow and wait while the leader takes a leak.

You'll get lynched for that in this forum!

"I believe that only applies to the yellow jersey. at times you will see the peloton slow and wait while the leader takes a leak. "

Ahh, but the yellow jersey WAS behind the crash (Hushovd).

And even then it's just if a contender is wearing it. The pace picked up before Mayo went down. There was no acceleration afterwards - the pace was kept high just as everyone had expected/predicted. The responsibility was his and his team's to get back on, and they didn't have the horses to do it. That's racing. Watch the coverage, EE was slow to respond and get their riders back to their leader - not as if it would've mattered.

LA predicted this yesterday, and even said it might be he who would be on the losing end. Someone was going to lose time today on those narrow cobbles. I doubt you'll hear a lot of whining. T-Mobile, Phonak, Fassa, and Lotto all pushed the pace. It's not as if they saw Mayo go down and then attacked.

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Jim Manton / ERO Sports

That's right, everybody pushed but not USPS.

I don't think it was unfair what they did, maybe not exactly gentlemen like but not unfair. Mayo isn't exactly known as a gentleman either. But what gets me is that in this forum, some people always try to defend USPS even if they didn't do anything different from the other teams. USPS and LA are sooooo clean, fair and true to the sport, com'on, wake up!

I am really dissapointed with USPS, T-Mobile, and Phonak. I am big fan of all their team leaders, but in particular Hamilton, but I have to say I am dissapointed that the tempo was not slowed to allow the Eusketal-Euskadi team leader to catch up. I watched live and it certainly looked like everyone was picking up the pace to get a good place going into first cobble section, but it really appears Mayo and his team were taken advantage of. All the team's know how dangerous Mayo and Zubeldia for that matter are for the overall and in the mountains, I can't believe that they took advantage of a crash to distance themselves from the Euskatel leaders/team. IMHO when a big GC contender goes down in a crash you don't take advantage of a contender. Remember Lance said this himself, he doesn't look to good now does he. Same goes for Tyler and Jan. I am pretty dissapointed in what happened to Euskatel-Euskadi. I will say that there may be more than meets the eye, but it certainly looks as if the big 3 contender and their teams took advantage of one of the most dangerous other contenders.

So true. In this forum, USPS and LA are always above what every other team does in cycling. they can do no wrong. The rest of the cycling world dopes and uses EPO, but never LA or the USPS team.

Agree 100%. I want Ullrich to win but what he and T-mobile did today was not good, in my opinion. And the same holds for USPS, Phonak and the others. Big disapointment!

I tend to agree but that's maybe a little too far what you just did. Remember, if someone has a very strong opinion about something, you can't convince him by picturing the worst possible scenario. Try to make a small point and then take a bigger step. Now, with the doping issue you lost all hope to get some of the super pro LA people in here on your side.

If you want a good example of this, just read one of the political treads in this forum. Lots of talking, lots of yelling but I've yet to see someone that is actually listening and changing his opinion. That's how war begins in the first place....ouch yet another flame has been lid.

For crepe's sake, this isn't a Care-Bear picnic. It was no secret that the two sections of cobbles could wreak havoc with the GC. It's about your position going into the mess. I haven't ever seen Petacchi or (the grand champion)Cipollini slow down at the end of a stage because a contender isn't in the 'right' place to make it a man to man sprint. They do that crap in a velodrome.

The strategy for Postal was clear....take the lead into the first section of pave, no way are they going to slow down and get Lance into trouble with the pack on that dangerous stretch of road.

After the first section of pave, they actually did sit back and let Phonak and TMobile and others set the pace.

Too bad for Mayo, but I didn't see anything unsportman like about the race. His team was gaining time back on the Pelton then it looked like they just gave up chasing.

Mayo was treated in this stage according to what he believes about himself, that he was not a serious contender for the overall win in the Tour. This is his quote from Cyclingnews.com:



http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2004/tour04/news/?id=jun04/jun16news:



At a press conference at his Euskaltel-Euskadi team's headquarters in Derio yesterday, Mayo said, "I have my feet on the ground and I know that the Tour is the Tour. We have not shown anything more than that we can win a stage and be among the top ten. It's a long way from that to say you are going to win. Until you have won [a Tour] you are not a favourite for a victory. My favorites are Ullrich and Armstrong because one has won a Tour and the other five; I not even been on the podium. It makes me chuckle when people say I am going to win the Tour de France, because I have not yet shown that ability."



If Iban doesn’t believe he is a serious contender for the overall victory why should the favorites treat him as one? He knew what was coming and didn't position himself very well heading into the cobbles. Maybe next year he can find a team that can do something other than climb. I don't think that if Lance, Jan or Tyler were in Mayo's postion they would have lost any time, they would have had enough horses (not just mountain goats) on their teams to close down a gap and rejoin the peloton.

"After the first section of pave, they actually did sit back and let Phonak and TMobile and others set the pace."

Have you seen the race yet? I'm not sure how I feel about the tactics employed, I don't think I can say definitively that USPS was playing foul, but there isn't much question about which team was primarily responsible for pushing the pace AFTER the first sector of pave.

Ken

at over 4' behind Lance... Iban Mayo is HISTORY, however he might make things interesting when he attacks and helps others who are trying to beat Lance.

i believe the real point is that nobody started a new ATTACK while mayo was down. the peloton continued doing what a peloton does... ride fast as hell in a big group. the real crime would have been for lance, jan, or tyler to try to bolt and seperate themselves from the "pack" and their current spots to take advantage of the situation. they didn't. they stayed with the peloton. also, everybody knew going into this stage that today was going to break up the peleton. the wreck wasn't some freak thing that was "unfair" towards mayo and warranted the lead peloton to wait. it has to be an unusual circumstance for them to do so. today's action was a usual situation from an unusual course, so if somebody fell back it's their own damned fault. if mayo had fallen because of a banana peel or a fan decked him with a giant salami, they'd have waited. he was a victim of the course, just the same as if he'd bonked and fell out. no waiting for people succumbing to a risk everybody else had to endure. no attacking is the only luxury you get.

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http://www.barefootrunning.org

Mayo's team was as much to blame for not bringing him back up. They were slow to respond, disorganized and too weak to even bridge to the second group. That's the price you pay for having a weak team, you are at the mercy of the peloton.

Hey folks, here's the deal. The first week of the tour, you don't sit up and wait for people who have crashed out. In some cases the peloton would be waiting 30 minutes to find out that someone abandoned.

Secondly, they rode this like a classics race. You accelerate into position to get to the pave first. Once on it you accelerate more. I don't remember anyone sitting up and waiting for the carnage from Arenberg or anywhere else to get back on. Strategies are different for different stages during different weeks of the tour. Until you get into the mountains when the clear contenders emerge, all bets and professional courtesies are off.

One final question or comment. Had a team opted for skinnier tires and liteweight wheels experienced a plethora of mechanicals because of poor planning would you feel bad if the peloton didn't sit up and wait for them? For crying out loud, its the Tour, not a group ride. Quit whining!

There's no doubt who the strongest team was today. Hincapie and Eki put on a clinic. But, again, the pace didn't increase after the crash, it simply stayed high just as everyone expected before the stage even started. Everyone was aware of the dangers this stage posed, and everyone knew the pace would increase right before the cobbles. The contender's teams all had the obligation to protect their rider and keep them up front beacuse everyone also knew there'd be no mercy today. Read all the pre-stage interviews of contenders and non-contenders. EE was muscled out by stronger teams, and they paid for it in the end. The crash was unfortunate, but should've been planned for. It sure seemed to me that it took a long time for EE to get back to their man. Liberty, on the other hand, surrounded Heras, and had him right back in the front group after a hard chase. Granted, Roberto didn't crash, but twice now we've seen Liberty immediately respond when he needed them. EE response was certainly not immediate. And, unless I'm mistaken, after the cobbles, USPS, T-Mobile, and Phonak all "shut down" while the sprinter's teams then ramped it up.

Again, I doubt you'll hear any whining from those who lost time. This stage went exactly as predicted. Everyone knew it would happen to somebody. Hell, I figured it would be Tyler or Roberto. No one changed their tactics, nor was anyone obligated to.

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Jim Manton / ERO Sports

"Mayo's team was as much to blame for not bringing him back up"

No argument from me. If there was any question as to whether EE could keep up with USPS, Phonak, and T-mobile, it was answered today- nope. And as has been said by others, it was clear from watching that the USPS plan was to drop the hammer at the start of the cobbles, which is a great plan to keep out of harm's way. The kicker is the reason the gap opened was twofold- the acceleration by USPS, and the crash immediately before the pave. So once you get to the other side of the pave, upright and in the lead do you A) hammer and increase the advantage B) stay at the front of the peloton and let someone else ride tempo, or C) sit up until the group reforms? Again, while I was watching option A seemed not only reasonable but prudent, it's after the fact that I wonder what would have happened if Lance or Jan were in Mayo's position. Maybe their team pulls them back up, maybe not. Another Tour moment to rehash over and over...

Ken

Guys - this is a RACE. Last year did you see everybody stop after Beloki went down? No - because it's a race. There is an unwritten rule if the yellow jersey goes down that nobody should attack. But the group cannot wait after every crash to see who went down. I have not seen the tv coverage yet, but from what I've read on-line, it seemed pretty fair to me.

Postal and T-Mobile would likely have paid for some assistance from some of the smaller teams, I'm sure. Not the first time that would've happened.

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Jim Manton / ERO Sports

Heras also missed the split, but his team got him back into the pack. I agree Postal, Phonak, or T-Mobile would have also brought their leaders back if necessary.

Mayo's weak team was exposed one day early. The TTT tomoroow will show it again tomorrrow.

BTW, Jan looks really good this year.

Actually, if you looked carefully at the video after Beloki's crash. Everyone turned to Armstrong asking if they should wait (not knowing Beloki's condition at the time), but Armstrong pointed up the road toward Vinokurov and shrugged his shoulders as if to say, "Not much we can do, we have to chase." Just an interesting tidbit from someone who's obviously seen that far too many times whilst on the trainer.

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Jim Manton / ERO Sports

yup... another "tour moment". period.

kinda shows how much weaker EE is when they had to form their own peleton and couldn't catch up. had to provide for themselves instead of drafting off the coattails of stronger teams. it was effectively two peletons, and one was faster than the other under the same conditions. if lance and friends had fallen, they'd most certainly had caught up.

in response to the sarcastic "lance can do no wrong and NEVER does drugs" post- if lance did do drugs, he'd win the whole tour by himself without the help of a team AND they'd be the coolest drugs ever, marketed by nike. since neither is happening, he's not on drugs and he still infallible.

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http://www.barefootrunning.org

Agreed.

I think this is getting ridiculous. For USPS, Phonak, T-Mobile, or even Euskatel, what were the priorities of the stage today? Finish unharmed, protect their leader, not lose time to any key opponents, and maybe not offend the sensibilities of slowtwitch posters. The key to doing the first three is to say at the front of the pack. Period. If an opponent pushes it, they'd have to push it. Staying at the front is the key to staying safe and, less importantly, not losing time. OK, maybe the entire peloton should have put it to a vote and all agreed to stop. Whatever.

This talk about waiting is crap. Lance did it once when Ullrich fell (because he had nothing to lose by doing so) and now it's criminal not to wait for opponents you are trying to beat in a race. Sure, one shouldn't attack because there is a crash or when the yellow is taking a leak, but should the race stop for every crash or delay? There are crashes all the time during a sprint, should we cry a freaking river b/c the sprint doesn't stop dead? How come Vino didn't catch all this crap last year when Beloki crashed during his (Vino's) breakaway? What if a GC contender crashes during a TT, should everyone else coast to bring down their times?

Did the tempo pick up because of the crash? No. Get over it.

<<Agree 100%. I want Ullrich to win but what he and T-mobile did today was not good, in my opinion. And the same holds for USPS, Phonak and the others. Big disapointment! >>

I don't think they (phonak, USPS, t-mobile) attacked Mayo. They just kept the pace steady before and after the pave. They couldn't just sit up and let Voight's lead rise up to 6 minutes again. You can't give him 6 minutes.


Matt

Mayo's team was as much to blame for not bringing him back up. They were slow to respond, disorganized and too weak to even bridge to the second group. That's the price you pay for having a weak team, you are at the mercy of the peloton.

=====================================================

Well put. If anyone still has a problem with the way the big 3 played things today, watch yesterday's stage again. USPS and Phonak rode hard tempo, even at the end of the race, and T-Mobile was always near the front. They were not trying to reel in a break or set up a sprinter. They did that extra work solely to protect their leader by keeping him in the front, safe(r) from crashes. EE even had Mayo up there in the front yesterday so they (along with everyone else in the peloton) knew what they had to do. They just couldn't do it when the going got tough today.

The most telling part of yesterday's stage though was the work Liberty did. Heras was off the back twice and both times they dropped back, got organized had him back in the peloton in less than five minutes. I don't particularly like Manolo and I don't think their riders are as strong as last year's ONCE squad but to Manolo's credit, they are unified, organized and still pretty damn strong. That showed in spades today.

Grand tours are a team sport. Mayo is on a weak team. I don't think any of the big three would have taken advantage of real bad luck but the code doesn't require contenders to wait for the weak and the lazy.

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Anyone who tells you they're as fast now as they were when they were 18...
sure wasn't very fast when they were 18.

Hey, I agree - that's bike racing.

But don't talk s*** about how Ulrich didn't wait for you after your crash last year, especially when you were riding too close to the spectators in the first place. It seems some people want respect, but they do not want to have to return it.

Just saw the coverage. I don't think they should have sat up and waited but they definitely took advantage of the situation. They put the hammer down after the split to get some time out of Mayo. That was fairly obvious.

I don't even think there's anything wrong w/that. I don't believe you should ever wait for someone because of a wreck, yellow jersey or no - shit happens. Forget all that unwritten rules of cycling nonsense - it's a race! Besides the same guys who won't take advantage of a wreck, etc... probably don't think twice about taking advantage by using illegal PED's.

For those that haven't been around this game long, today's tactics are perfectly acceptable. The "slow down" understanding didn't apply here. This wasn't mano-a-mano on the mountain, like recent years' well publicized events.

You people that are complaining don't really understand pro cycling very much. Nothing really wrong with that. You'll learn. But just understand this was a totally different situation. The peloton would have hammered even harder had it been LA or Ullrich who was dropped.

"Besides the same guys who won't take advantage of a wreck, etc... probably don't think twice about taking advantage by using illegal PED's. "

Can you clarify this statement for me? Are you saying that if you wait for your rivals you must be a doper? I do not understand that logic.

Slight change of subject but I agree with you about last years crash.

Clearly Ullrich did ease up or how else would Tyler have gotten in front of him and everyone else to put his hand out for them to take it easy. The only other explanation is that after the fall Tyler suddenly hit the nitrous (with a broken collarbone that he admitted prevented him from accelerating quickly) and caught and passed Ullrich on a mountain right after he'd been dropped. Yeah... That's what happened. Sure. :)

Ullrich waited. His honor is intact. Carry on.

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Justin in Austin, get it? :)

Cool races:
- Redman
- Desoto American Triple T

all four comments by Ligget, Sherwin, Roll, and Carmichael allude to the fact that the big three purposely raised the pace to put time into Mayo and others. See the comments on www.letour.com, on the english version, they are on the menu at the right of the screen.

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"What the mind can conceive and believe, the mind and body can achieve; and those who stay will be champions."

Ha...

I did my first cycling race as a 10y/o more than 20years ago. In Switzerland, which is important because US racing has never been the same thing as European racing (yes I did race in the US) and the stuff we are talking about are not written down. Keep in mind that the TdF IS a european race and therefore what's done and not done us given by the unwritten rules of european pro cycling.

In a multi week cycling event, you DO NOT profit from the missfortune of a contender (top 10), wheater it's a flat, crash, other mechanical. If you do, you'll be on the black list for the rest of the tour and maybe for more than that.

In my opinion, the only reason why T-mobile, USPS and phonak could push the pace was the two other riders in front which might be considered contenders.

There was a break up the road.

ofcourse they lifted the pace, i saw the entire stage this morning and USPS pushed it hard. As they should. If you think that the entire group is going to wait for mayo after he's crashed, thats ridiculous. LA doesnt owe mayo anything. And if Lance had crashed he would have had as Phil says "his big boys" pull him back up to the group. Here's an awesome example of why its important to have very strong flat stage machines like Floyd, Eki, Pavel and George. They could have brought him back, EE didnt have anyone like this, obviously. Heras got back on.

Tomorrow will be interesting to see if EE's unofficial team time trial (which they had to do today) will effect their official TTT tomorrow.

Who had it bad was Petacchi's lead out guy (name escapes me) who fractured his collarbone and had a bloody shirt. At least Mayo is still in the race.

jeremyb

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Want: 58cm Cervelo Soloist. PM me if you have one to sell

Vintage Cervelo: A Resource

From what I saw while watching this morning. It looked as if the pace was picking up before Mayo went down. USPS and the others wanted to slim down the group so they hit the pave in a smaller group to keep their leaders safe. Then Mayo went down. USPS and the others kept going at their tempo pace.

I doubt that 3 of the big boys (possibly the final podium members) would want to slow down to let a rival catch up.

Mind you he wasn't in the yellow and was an enemy...

Life is fair in love and war...

Ouch.. he went down! No wounder he lost nearly 4 min.

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Imagination is more important than knowledge. Albert Einstein

It is Armstrong who accelerates on the second section of pavé at Gruson, with George Hincapie and Jan Ullrich hanging on - a sight no-one thought they'd ever see!






On hearing this, T-Mobile go to the head of the leading group to make sure Mayo never returns...


http://grahamwatson.com/

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Imagination is more important than knowledge. Albert Einstein

Keep this in mind.. Lance is at the front in that photo. He goes down, everybody immediately behind him will likely go down too. His advantage. The coicest place in the pave is ALWAYS at the front pushing the pace. The reason you push pace at the front is so no one passes you. Smart racing. If you watch coverage of Paris-Roubaix the last couple of years you see the same thing with the winners.

Rusty

I was just commenting on how ironic it is that cycling is such an honorable sport in so many ways and so dishonorable in others.

Could you give a little less information in your subject please. I don't get to watch the action until 5pm. And, even worse, it wasn't the Pave he hit.

Just for reference, Agret, I was specifically talking about euro cycling, NOT U.S. racing. Similar situations have played out many times in the past. Disrespecting the "rules" is something you see at the U23 and junior levels, NOT at the TdF. Suggesting that T-Mob, USPS, Phonak and the others disrespected the rules is silly. What goes around, comes around. Its early in the tour. Sooner or later they'll all likely find themselves on the other end of the stick.

All the contenders understood that the pace would be high, and that breaks were going to happen. Look at their prerace comments. They understood there would be no sitting up...that a break would mean a tough day.