Cleat pushed back/midfoot position observations after 10 weeks

Nov 28, 09 5:35

Post #1 of 18 (22053 views)

To those who were interested or who had already tried it I thought I would share a few of my observations. I had started by pushing my Look cleats back as far as I could, then read some articles by Joe Friel on the midfoot/arch cleat position and found out about the Speedplay adapter. So now that I have had that system in place as far back as I could get it(ball of foot 2cm past spindle)I thought I would share what I found. I realize this will make the traditional 'have to have ball of foot over spindle crowd' mad, but I am a firm believer that there is no one thing that fits everyone to a T. I might just be the rare one it works for, but perhaps it might interest some others.

I always felt crazy powerful on my MTB with toe clilps, but never felt that way in clipless. Crazy powerful in spin class, but not in toe clilps. It never dawned on my why until reading Joe Friel's articles:
http://www.trainingbible.com/...-midsole-cleats.html

http://www.trainingbible.com/.../cleat-position.html

Answer: The platform pedals/toe clips allowed me to get the ball of my foot further forward than the clipless 'ball over spindle' position.

1. I'm accessing a much larger group of quads/glutes with this cleat position and I'm faster. Bigger gear, same cadence and much more comfortable.

2. My calves are insanely fresh after riding and my run has a pop never before felt after cycling....nearly as good as fresh legs.

3. My pedal stroke is extremely light on the upstroke now and I have no 'fighting' of the opposite foot resisting. Maybe a better way is to describe that I'm very 'heavy' in the saddle and feel I'm not losing contact with the crank anywhere in the stroke....no dead spots.

Anyway, just wanted to share this little nugget or at least it is to me, perhaps someone else out there might find it a benefit. This site has been a fantastic resource with all the knowledgeable folks and I felt like this might be worth sharing with ya'll.

Hope the collective Turkey Day's were full of good times with family and friends.....lates.

Last edited by: slowerthanslow: Dec 20, 09 7:29

Re: Cleat pushed back/midfoot position observations after 6 weeks [slowerthanslow] [ In reply to ]

Nov 28, 09 6:28

Post #2 of 18 (21992 views)

Could you post a pic of the bottom of your shoe, showing how far back the Speedplay adaptor moves the cleat?

Thanks.

Steve

"If you ain't first, you're last." Reese Bobby Talladega Nights

Re: Cleat pushed back/midfoot position observations after 6 weeks [The_Mickstar] [ In reply to ]

Nov 28, 09 6:48

Post #3 of 18 (21970 views)

I will tomorrow when my girlie brings the camera back. I measured the ball of my foot 21mm ahead of the spindle.....just a shade over 2cm if you want a measurement until then. The best I could do with Look was 5mm behind the spindle so it was a 26mm change with the Speedplay adapter.

Last edited by: slowerthanslow: Nov 28, 09 6:54

Re: Cleat pushed back/midfoot position observations after 6 weeks [slowerthanslow] [ In reply to ]

Nov 28, 09 6:49

Post #4 of 18 (21969 views)

After you adjusted your cleat position, did you also lower your seat? I would assume that if you used to use a forward position and shifted it back, you will change angles of your leg during the pedal stroke. How much composition was needed in seatpost height to adjust for this?

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Re: Cleat pushed back/midfoot position observations after 6 weeks [jvanis] [ In reply to ]

Nov 28, 09 6:54

Post #5 of 18 (21960 views)

In Reply To:

After you adjusted your cleat position, did you also lower your seat? I would assume that if you used to use a forward position and shifted it back, you will change angles of your leg during the pedal stroke. How much composition was needed in seatpost height to adjust for this?

The net net of it was that I did lower it a total of 15mm by the time I was done tweaking. I'm not one to be constantly checking FIST/angle measurements so I can't tell you about any of my before/after angles. I just went with what felt right and when it was all said and done it was golden. I did not move my saddle back after lowering b/c I was really far out on the nose in the old position so the effective move forward when lowering was welcome to me as I get to sit on more of my saddle.

So: cleat moved 26mm back, but saddle only lowered 15mm.

Last edited by: slowerthanslow: Nov 28, 09 6:59

Re: Cleat pushed back/midfoot position observations after 6 weeks [slowerthanslow] [ In reply to ]

Nov 28, 09 7:13

Post #6 of 18 (21935 views)

Yeah, but you're slower than slow... Really, do you have any TT courses or power measurements from before and then again after some adaptation? I'd read that long ago in Friel's book, and it makes sense. I've always used cleats farthest forward in all shoe/setups, and did move my tri shoe cleats one cm rearward, but then quit experimenting. Also wondering about effects or detriment across the different venues; it seems there might be a continuum of maximum benefit in rearward to forward that tracks with Tri - road- MTB or track. Thoughts? Tried it offroad?

Re: Cleat pushed back/midfoot position observations after 6 weeks [dave_w] [ In reply to ]

Nov 28, 09 8:01

Post #7 of 18 (21899 views)

Wish I could afford a power meter.....would be such a great tool

No power or TT measurements, but I am utilizing my 15 tooth cog a lot now. I even pulled a few times with my 14 and that has never happened.....ever. It has been fun to have my buddies ask me what has gotten into me....I told them I was on rhoids and a doping regimen....finally fessed up to my cleat position.

I won't have any TT's to measure against as the racing season is over for me and I will be doing a ton of easy mileage this winter, but come spring time I have no doubts PR's will be coming in on the bike split:)

I think there will definitely be a point that is too far back, but I'm nowhere near where Friel says I should be, probably half way between 'normal' and Friel on my setup. I would go further if I could just to find the other end of the spectrum to know I had gone too far, but it requires either going to a shoe like a Biomac/D2 with pre-drilled midfoot cleat position or sacrificing a pair of shoes. The customs at $500 plus.....NOT(see above comment on power meter;) As far as on MTB, I ride with platforms and toe clips for that very reason.....could never get same power with ball over spindle. I will be getting the SPD's set up that way though since that system is very easy to get midfoot due to the small 2-hole cleat profile(easy to put in the contoured part of a shoe).

If nothing else I think it would be worth it to use this for my taste due to the running benefit alone even if my cycling stayed the same. I am running so much 'fresher' now and my calves feel amazing.

Hope that helps

Last edited by: slowerthanslow: Nov 28, 09 8:06

Re: Cleat pushed back/midfoot position observations after 6 weeks [dave_w] [ In reply to ]

Dec 20, 09 7:05

Post #8 of 18 (21679 views)

Just an update to this since it's been several more weeks. Besides the Cobb V-Flow saddle this has been the single best addition to my cycling performance ever.

With that said I'm a heel dropper by nature so this fits me better in terms of mechanics. My cycling has taken such an abrupt increase in performance that I'm really beside myself. No, I don't own a power meter. No, I can't give you race times. However, all my usual riding freaks are saying 'what the f*&K has gotten into you?'. So I will take that as a non-biased approval of my performance.

I took a trip up to my in-laws in North Carolina two weekends ago and rode the hills and that is where I could really feel it. My climbing was off the charts. I was able to stay in the saddle indefinitely and didn't feel the need to stand up to give my calves a break b/c they are so much less called upon with the rearward cleat setup. I have always had chronically weak calves and incredibly strong, bulky thighs. I look like a freak. No matter how hard I have ever blasted my calves with a trainer to strengthen them I still felt weak i the calves. For me anyway, this cleat position has allowed me to recruit my quads, glutes and hammys in a way never before possible with the ball over the spindle position. It took me about 20 turns of the pedal to realize this was the way to go for me. It's obviously not for everyone, but maybe there is someone like me on this board that can benefit from it.

So, that's it. I once again don't have a camera to take a pic of the cleat, but I have measure the ball of my foot 18mm in front of the the pedal spindle.

Steve Hogg is a great name to Google if you want to read more on it.

Last edited by: slowerthanslow: Dec 20, 09 7:10

Re: Cleat pushed back/midfoot position observations after 6 weeks [slowerthanslow] [ In reply to ]

Dec 20, 09 8:18

Post #9 of 18 (21617 views)

I have the same N=1 observation. Moved my cleats from all the way forward to all the way back. Instantly noticed a difference while cycling, but even better was the feel of running off the bike. I come off the bike feeling much fresher... my perception of it is that my CNS is slightly less fatigued by saving the calves, and also when I start to run my calves feel fresher than before. I have more pop in my step and am much more able to approximate my fresh running form even after drilling a half IM bike leg.

Also, another N=1, but I feel like I am less susceptible to calve injuries, which used to plague me.

final N=1, I feel that switching to shorter cranks is the best compliment to adjusting cleats. I have done both and am impressed with my running off the bike.

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Re: Cleat pushed back/midfoot position observations after 6 weeks [ericM35-39] [ In reply to ]

Dec 20, 09 8:28

Post #10 of 18 (21603 views)

Yep same thing for me on running. I am 6'1" and my LBS was scolding me when I dropped off my bike last summer to have them swap out my 175's for 170's......another perfect move for me.

3 big changes this year for me:

1. Cobb V-Flow Max
2. 175-170
3. Speedplay cleat adapter

All in all it's been like early Christmas with the results.

Re: Cleat pushed back/midfoot position observations after 6 weeks [slowerthanslow] [ In reply to ]

Dec 20, 09 9:04

Post #11 of 18 (21567 views)

What is a speedplay adapter?

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Re: Cleat pushed back/midfoot position observations after 6 weeks [slowerthanslow] [ In reply to ]

Dec 20, 09 11:12

Post #12 of 18 (21524 views)

hmmm... I only went to 172.5s... tell me more. Also, what can you tell me about your Vflow experience? I'm not in the market for a saddle, but I'm always interested in hearing the Adamo and Cobb success stories.

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“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Re: Cleat pushed back/midfoot position observations after 6 weeks [ericM35-39] [ In reply to ]

Dec 20, 09 11:19

Post #13 of 18 (21507 views)

In Reply To:

hmmm... I only went to 172.5s... tell me more. Also, what can you tell me about your Vflow experience? I'm not in the market for a saddle, but I'm always interested in hearing the Adamo and Cobb success stories.

Adamo Typhoon: Rail became uneven. Replaced by LBS with another Typhoon. This time the padding under the cover began to tear off the right side AND the rail on the left side started sagging. The LBS told me it was my fault and they wouldn't replace it. Okay fine.

Bought a Cobb VFlow and the rest is history. Adamo was too soft for me and it gave me no room to move about the saddle. It's so sloped you are set in that one position. Had to jack around with ISM for weeks and weeks.....never felt great, but better than any regular road saddle had.

Cobb is just butter. Can rotate pelvis forward indefinitely and feels like I'm sitting in a chair.....butta.

170's.....best move I have ever made. Opened up my hip angle and it's perfect. 172.5's......sorta better. Tried them for about 100 miles after the 170's to see....I lost a bit of comfort and speed. Back to 170's.

Re: Cleat pushed back/midfoot position observations after 10 weeks [slowerthanslow] [ In reply to ]

Dec 20, 09 19:56

Post #14 of 18 (21350 views)

This one is sort of funny. If you ask Joel how many people he has tried this on you will not get a very big number.
He, nor anyone else seems to have exhausted good cleat positioning/adjustment first. How much forefoot tilt do you have? Or for that matter how much forefoot tilt did anyone have that Joel suggested moving the cleats back? No one knows. No know knows if the cleat in the first place was in a bad position�.or did other factors change like lateral cleat placement during this move as well.
These suggestions are easy to poke holes. Often a new position feels good because the old one never felt good.
First I would exhaust proper cleat adjustment which would most likely (only a 90 plus percent chance) involve wedges. The tilt at the forefoot tends to decrease as you move rearward.
That is not to say a rearward positions is bad it just seems like much is missed and I am guessing most would not go so far back if they had proper cleat adjustment in the first place.
As for the Speedplay question. Go to their web site and click on the fit tech videos. You will find out more about pedals here than anywhere else in the world.

Cheers

Swifty

Re: Cleat pushed back/midfoot position observations after 10 weeks [slowerthanslow] [ In reply to ]

Dec 20, 09 20:18

Post #15 of 18 (21317 views)

It is my understanding for the 'average' person that fresher calves is a hinderance. You are faster when you roll off your foot instead of pushing off with your calf. By weakening the calf it forces you to roll instead of pushing off (which provides no forward propulsion). Unless you are running barefoot/minimalist and need your calves as shock absorbers, then weak calves are better for the run as they force you to run more 'naturally'. Also, cleat position isn't going to make the "oh man what happened to you" difference. Maybe that is from 10 weeks of training?

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Last edited by: msuguy512: Dec 20, 09 20:18

Re: Cleat pushed back/midfoot position observations after 10 weeks [Swifty] [ In reply to ]

Dec 21, 09 5:01

Post #16 of 18 (21203 views)

As far as exhausting a traditional cleat fit goes, I had a FIST/Dartfishl fit done last summer and had LeMond wedges under my Look cleats. It was the worst my stroke had ever felt. Was comfortable on the bars with my upper body, but I started to develop problems with my Achilles. This is what led me to look into cleat position since the fitter changed where I had been for 20+ years so drastically. When I told him I felt like I had lost power he said I needed to re-learn how to pedal and had my cleat pushed all the way forward as far as it would go.

Looked into Friel. For what it's worth my position is nowhere near as far back as Friel suggests. I am in line with Steve Hogg who advocates a more happy medium between Friel and traditional.

Last edited by: slowerthanslow: Dec 21, 09 5:08

Re: Cleat pushed back/midfoot position observations after 10 weeks [msuguy512] [ In reply to ]

Dec 21, 09 5:22

Post #17 of 18 (21178 views)

In Reply To:

It is my understanding for the 'average' person that fresher calves is a hinderance. You are faster when you roll off your foot instead of pushing off with your calf. By weakening the calf it forces you to roll instead of pushing off (which provides no forward propulsion). Unless you are running barefoot/minimalist and need your calves as shock absorbers, then weak calves are better for the run as they force you to run more 'naturally'. Also, cleat position isn't going to make the "oh man what happened to you" difference. Maybe that is from 10 weeks of training?

Okay I gotta hear this one. Where exactly did you hear/read that fresh calves are a hinderance to runners?

And if you think cleat position isn't important then you know as much about cycling as you do running......nada. It's ALL important. If you look at what he did with his fit it was 3 HUGE changes. 5mm shorter cranks, a new saddle and a new cleat position. If you think it doesn't matter go make those changes on your bike and see how your bike feels.

Last edited by: ride2eat: Dec 21, 09 5:24

Re: Cleat pushed back/midfoot position observations after 10 weeks [slowerthanslow] [ In reply to ]

Dec 21, 09 16:49

Post #18 of 18 (20982 views)

You are correct the speedplay plate is not really mid foot and yes Hogg does seem to use these with some frequency.

You do mention getting a fit last summer but you do not mention who or the name of the facility. A FIST fit does not consider cleat positioning. Cleats are something a fitter does outside of a FIST fit on their own or was picked up with other education.
You do mention upper body feeling good and that is something covered by a good FIST fitter.
Also DartFish is not a "fit" it is just something that captures motion. It would be interested to hear more about this place. Did you go back and discuss the issues? Did they re-look at the situation? Sometimes follow up is critical. Can you share more about the place....is this a place people should or should not visit?

Re-learning how to pedal.....this is not one I agree with hearing and sorry you got that one. You are what you are. Just pedal. I never understood the so called "how to pedal" experts.

You also mention LeMond LeWedges. The Cleat Wedges have not been called that for almost 4 years now. They only had that while LeMond Fitness was distributing (suppressing) them. Makes me wonder a little bit about the facility and how up to date they really are or it could be just incidental.

Would love to hear more

Swifty

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