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New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC)

 

 


jmX

Apr 14, 12 19:42

Post #1 of 86 (9131 views)
New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) Quote | Reply

Being in SoCal I don't get to use my trainer that much, but when I do it sucks. Over the last 2 winters I spent a little time writing a 3d program to make training less dull, and I've logged quite a few hours on it over the last 2 winters. I figured it'd be worth showing, since it's kinda neat and I think this crowd would get a kick out of it.

First, the overview: Its fully ANT+ Compatible (reads heartrate, cadence, powertap), it saves out standard Garmin .FIT files for WKO+/TrainingPeaks/Whatever, if you don't have a powermeter it'll save out a fit file with power by estimating your watts using standard trainer speed->power equations, it runs on MAC or PC, and PC has full 5.1 surround sound support. There are AI racers of various speeds you can try to pass, there are special interval modes (you program in a whole workout, or just ride around the scenery, or both) with voice prompts telling you when to start/stop the interval, and I built a from-scratch PC/MAC joystick for the front wheel to sit on so you can steer around the world. It also has a video playback mode where it plays most non-DRM'd videos but still has the interval prompts and graph overlays, but that is a bit flaky at the moment and its PC only (no MAC video yet).

Anyway, here's some screens of it in action (All screens taken at 1920x1080 with 4xAA)




Older screenshots (which show off how the workouts work)


Summary screen when you stop pedaling:



I should probably turn this thing into a product, but for now, it's just used by me. There's some more details on the webpage I made for it a while back: http://jmtc.ls1howto.com/

Lemme know what you guys think, and suggestions for things you'd like to see would be interesting to hear too.


jasondubose

Apr 14, 12 19:54

Post #2 of 86 (9100 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [jmX] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

what you made that?!

Awesome, when can i buy it? :)

-Jason
______________________________________________
Is that all you've got? Are you sure?


z2009

Apr 14, 12 20:19

Post #3 of 86 (9077 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [jasondubose] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

shut up and take my money


Jon h

Apr 14, 12 21:23

Post #4 of 86 (9035 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [jmX] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Wow! This is really cool!


jacobus

Apr 14, 12 21:38

Post #5 of 86 (9020 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [jasondubose] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

He was gonna give it away, now you went and put a price on it,


jacobus

Apr 14, 12 21:40

Post #6 of 86 (9013 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [jmX] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Now if we could race each other every wedsday night online, that would be really cool


twoadays

Apr 14, 12 21:41

Post #7 of 86 (9012 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [jmX] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

This is leagues ahead of what's available commercially, bravo. I'd gladly pay for a licence if you ever decide to sell it. I'm not sure if you've modeled drafting, but I think that the steering element opens up some options in drafting strategy.

As a digital systems designer, I'm also curious about your hardware setup. Do you pull your ANT+ data through the regular USB stick or through your hardware? How many updates/second do you see for the different sensors? Do you do any smoothing or just report instantaneous data? What kind of board and controller? What does your wireless setup look like? Software side, what did you write it in? Does it feel smooth at the ~30-40fps, and does it affect your cycling when the graphics start to chug?

Pardon the post full of questions.


AwesomePossum

Apr 14, 12 21:48

Post #8 of 86 (8999 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [jmX] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

any chance we could get a beta version to test out?


jmX

Apr 14, 12 22:17

Post #9 of 86 (8980 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [twoadays] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

twoadays wrote:
This is leagues ahead of what's available commercially, bravo. I'd gladly pay for a licence if you ever decide to sell it. I'm not sure if you've modeled drafting, but I think that the steering element opens up some options in drafting strategy.


As a digital systems designer, I'm also curious about your hardware setup. Do you pull your ANT+ data through the regular USB stick or through your hardware? How many updates/second do you see for the different sensors? Do you do any smoothing or just report instantaneous data? What kind of board and controller? What does your wireless setup look like? Software side, what did you write it in? Does it feel smooth at the ~30-40fps, and does it affect your cycling when the graphics start to chug?

Pardon the post full of questions.


When I wrote the first version back in 2010 I had to "crack" the ANT+ packets, which took me a couple weeks....weeks after I finished figuring out what the packets meant, the ANT+ group released full specs to everybody. At that point, I figured there would be all sorts of commercial apps available so I didn't work on this thing almost at all during 2011. I just used it for my workouts, and that was that. Now that its April 2012, I'm still pretty shocked there aren't half a dozen things like this commercially available.

ANT+ data comes through a normal ANT+ usb stick. I haven't messed with the ANT+ stuff in over a year so I couldn't tell you right now the update rates, but I do know that HR packets seemed pretty random, cadence/speed was about once a second (and at slower pedaling speeds repeat packets would be sent with no differences between the previous packet), and PowerTap I simply don't remember. The app has a full built-in command console and ANT+ logs can be enabled, and the whole thing dumps raw data out to a txt file so I could look sometime later if people were really curious. I do smooth the speed data a little, but I'm not totally happy with that. I need to add in the 3s/10s/30s power displays, right now watts is instantaneous. Every test run I've done, I also recorded on a Garmin Edge 500, and once uploaded to Garmin connect both my and garmins fit file pretty much match exactly so I think the data I'm grabbing is "good enough" right now.


As for graphics chugging, the whole graphics system is configurable. It'll run at 640x480 with no realtime shadowmapping, no antialiasing, etc at 400fps on my machine, or, as in my screenshots, you can crank it up to 1080p with 4x AA and it goes 40fps. All depends on what your PC can do and how much you care about graphics. On PC and MAC, I use OpenGL for graphics. On PC I use XAudio for 5.1 surround sound generation, and on MAC I use OpenAL (which *should* give me 5.1, but I can only get 2ch audio out of it right now. *shrug*).


There is no more "controller" or custom circuitry for anything ANT+. The joystick I built uses a USB chip that makes it super easy to create a fully MAC/PC compatible joystick, so I went with that. I think it updates at 30hz or so. I doubt I'll want to get into the custom joystick manufacturing biz, and steering is 100% non-essential (it's neat for 'game' type stuff, but for workouts its just not needed) so I may just keep that stuff to myself.


There is one last party trick this thing does, which will never see the light of day...when I do plug my old obsoleted Arduino microcontroller board in, it has an X-10 chip in it and will control an X-10 dimmer switch anywhere in your house. Plug a fan into that X-10 dimmer, and voila....the fan speeds up and slows down with your speed on the trainer. Full blast is hit around 18mph. Again, this will fry half the fans on the market (the motors don't like the type of dimming the X-10 switch does...its really meant for incandescent bulbs), so it's a "me only" kinda thing. Still fun to see it work.


(This post was edited by jmX on Apr 14, 12 22:19)


jmX

Apr 14, 12 22:22

Post #10 of 86 (8968 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [AwesomePossum] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

AwesomePossum wrote:
any chance we could get a beta version to test out?

I'll probably release a very simple program later this summer which will let you record your exercise to a Garmin .FIT file, tell you realtime what your power is, and show numbers/graphs and whatnot on the screen with voice prompts for intervals. It'd be a free alternative to other solutions out there, and serve as a beta test of sorts for my codebase.


twoadays

Apr 14, 12 22:38

Post #11 of 86 (8949 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [jmX] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Ah, so it's all in the ANT+ stick then. That means pretty much anyone satisfies the hardware requirements already. I thought (/was hoping?) maybe there were some limitations with the existing stick that you worked around using a dev board. Pity :P

The most similar product I can think of is TrainerRoad.com, but it only really has the workout functionality without the 3D. The Train and Race view in Golden Cheetah is pretty basic.

The X-10 dimmer is variable resistance or PWM? I could definitely see using the latter to drive a motor/fan.


jsfarmer

Apr 15, 12 7:36

Post #12 of 86 (8795 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [jmX] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

It's a shame computrainers aren't ANT+. You could use this to run one.

Can you change the type of bike to a tri bike?

The graphics look outstanding. Is there any way to change the route? It seems like you could add a controller or rest to a Kurt Kinetic turntable riser ring pretty easily.

Keep up the great work. This is looking terrific. I'd love to see it as a commercial product. PLEASE continue with the MAC development.

--------------------------

TEAM HONEY BADGER


ziptied

Apr 15, 12 7:46

Post #13 of 86 (8781 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [jmX] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

jmX wrote:
AwesomePossum wrote:
this summer

boner kill




magmd

Apr 15, 12 9:06

Post #14 of 86 (8714 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [ziptied] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Wow, this is great work. I too am surprised there aren't other apps/products out there like this. But I am glad someone is taking initiative. Keep it up. Would love to have a great product out there, because ALL of us spend some time on the trainer. And most of us do/would use powermeter.

I have joule 2.0 and use quarq, so I can see my power while on the trainer, but it does get a bit boring. Currently just use TV/DVD to keep me entertained. Something like this would make it much more interesting.

Great job!


(This post was edited by magmd on Apr 15, 12 9:07)


grosso27

Apr 15, 12 9:42

Post #15 of 86 (8672 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [jmX] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

So it's TrainerRoad but with 3d visual interface? WANT! Where can I send my check?


manitou820

Apr 15, 12 9:51

Post #16 of 86 (8660 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [jmX] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Get some funding. Make this happen.


http://www.kickstarter.com/


phourgenres

Apr 15, 12 9:57

Post #17 of 86 (8652 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [jacobus] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Making it an online product so we can compete is an awesome idea.

Btw, sweet product.


(This post was edited by phourgenres on Apr 15, 12 10:25)


hillier99

Apr 15, 12 10:08

Post #18 of 86 (8636 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [grosso27] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

grosso27 wrote:
So it's TrainerRoad but with 3d visual interface? WANT! Where can I send my check?

The trainerroad programming guys just had a heart attack.

Brad

----------------------------------------------------------
3SIXTY5cycling.com - Full Carbon Clinchers


AHare

Apr 15, 12 10:12

Post #19 of 86 (8628 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [jmX] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I actually made the very beginnings of an app like this last winter, but gave up once I learned about Trainerroad and went back to the other project I've got going. I did a couple computrainer races this winter, and I couldn't believe how awful the software was when you're talking about a $1k piece of equipment. Congratulations on pulling through and getting a polished-looking product out.

The goals I'd have for something like this:
-Any kind of multiplayer
-Online handicapped multiplayer - all the tactics and exercise of road-racing, without the bike damage when you crash. Handicapping could be based on each rider's FTP, though that'd require a server to keep track of people's FTP since lying would be an easy way to win.
-Real routes. You could maybe use the google elevation data and google earth textures, and elaborate with randomly-placed trees or something to do it on the cheap.

The video of 0.5 looks amazing. I echo the "shut up and take my money now" folks. I made a little java interval app last winter too, but yours is pretty and has all the power readouts and I want it now.
____________
Tour De Giro - Multiplayer online cycling racing simulation using ANT+ powermeters and CompuTrainers - http://www.tourdegiro.com

(This post was edited by AHare on Apr 15, 12 10:18)


GMAN19030

Apr 15, 12 10:23

Post #20 of 86 (8608 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [hillier99] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

hillier99 wrote:
grosso27 wrote:
So it's TrainerRoad but with 3d visual interface? WANT! Where can I send my check?

The trainerroad programming guys just had a heart attack.

Brad

I agree.


hillier99

Apr 15, 12 10:54

Post #21 of 86 (8571 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [jmX] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I really like this idea.

Don't get all hung up on a steering interface either... Make the rider steer by himself around corners and other riders. What matters is the speed / power / time / distance.
If you made this and had different courses to download (Alp d'heuz, P-R, etc.) with head to head competition, you're printing money.

Brad

----------------------------------------------------------
3SIXTY5cycling.com - Full Carbon Clinchers


King of Pain

Apr 15, 12 11:31

Post #22 of 86 (8525 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [z2009] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

z2009 wrote:
shut up and take my money

x2


B12 Bomber

Apr 15, 12 11:37

Post #23 of 86 (8516 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [jmX] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

it looks friggin great, there is a HUGE market and little competition. Take it!


AHare

Apr 15, 12 11:37

Post #24 of 86 (8515 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [hillier99] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Quote:
Don't get all hung up on a steering interface either... Make the rider steer by himself around corners and other riders. What matters is the speed / power / time / distance.
If you made this and had different courses to download (Alp d'heuz, P-R, etc.) with head to head competition, you're printing money.
I agree with this - once you add steering, then you're going to have the rider able to do unrealistic things and still stay upright, or you're going to have to add a physics engine so that the virtual rider falls down if he does something stupid. If you make it more like Wii Tennis where the positioning of the guy is done for you and all you provide is the power input, that should be good.

For pack riding you could have the guy automatically make a pass when he'd positionally be ahead, and otherwise stay drafting. A steering input wouldn't be useful without the feedback that you naturally get on a bike as it tips back and forth.
____________
Tour De Giro - Multiplayer online cycling racing simulation using ANT+ powermeters and CompuTrainers - http://www.tourdegiro.com


jmX

Apr 15, 12 12:51

Post #25 of 86 (8453 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [hillier99] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

hillier99 wrote:
grosso27 wrote:
So it's TrainerRoad but with 3d visual interface? WANT! Where can I send my check?


The trainerroad programming guys just had a heart attack.

Brad

Doubtful ;) I've randomly posted shots of this program since 2010, so I think anybody who's done ANT+ stuff has probably seen what I was doing. I'm guessing no companies consider it financially viable or something to spend money on graphics programmers. Everything that's come out so far is pretty visually poor.

Anyway, I'm just a dude with kids, full time job, and a normal training load. Not much of a threat to a company who's got a bit of resources behind it.


jackmott

Apr 15, 12 12:54

Post #26 of 86 (5598 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [jmX] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

you ever play with putting a huge multiplier on the virtual riders speed? game makers learned way back when that walking around shooting things at realistic speed feels slow as hell on a computer screen (as does riding on the computrainer).

the character in DOOM runs at like 90mph.


Fastest Amateur at NO 70.3 Reports on the race!
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter


atomic916

Apr 15, 12 13:02

Post #27 of 86 (5593 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [jmX] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Quote:
Anyway, I'm just a dude with kids, full time job, and a normal training load.

Don't sell yourself short. Until they quit their jobs to do TrainerRoad full time just a few weeks ago, this was exactly what the guys at TrainerRoad were too!


hillier99

Apr 15, 12 13:05

Post #28 of 86 (5587 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [jmX] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

jmX wrote:
hillier99 wrote:
grosso27 wrote:
So it's TrainerRoad but with 3d visual interface? WANT! Where can I send my check?


The trainerroad programming guys just had a heart attack.

Brad


Doubtful ;) I've randomly posted shots of this program since 2010, so I think anybody who's done ANT+ stuff has probably seen what I was doing. I'm guessing no companies consider it financially viable or something to spend money on graphics programmers. Everything that's come out so far is pretty visually poor.

Anyway, I'm just a dude with kids, full time job, and a normal training load. Not much of a threat to a company who's got a bit of resources behind it.

So were the TR guys too... I think the "cheap power" market is a huge opportunity now.

Brad

----------------------------------------------------------
3SIXTY5cycling.com - Full Carbon Clinchers


jmX

Apr 15, 12 13:07

Post #29 of 86 (5584 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [AHare] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

AHare wrote:
I actually made the very beginnings of an app like this last winter, but gave up once I learned about Trainerroad and went back to the other project I've got going. I did a couple computrainer races this winter, and I couldn't believe how awful the software was when you're talking about a $1k piece of equipment. Congratulations on pulling through and getting a polished-looking product out.

The goals I'd have for something like this:
-Any kind of multiplayer
-Online handicapped multiplayer - all the tactics and exercise of road-racing, without the bike damage when you crash. Handicapping could be based on each rider's FTP, though that'd require a server to keep track of people's FTP since lying would be an easy way to win.
-Real routes. You could maybe use the google elevation data and google earth textures, and elaborate with randomly-placed trees or something to do it on the cheap.

The video of 0.5 looks amazing. I echo the "shut up and take my money now" folks. I made a little java interval app last winter too, but yours is pretty and has all the power readouts and I want it now.

Online multiplayer is a whole bag of worms that I'll be waiting to implement. Local multiplayer with 2 people in the same room will be implemented soon....and I think I could probably up that to 4 per USB stick pretty easily for training studio use. You touch on one of the problems with multiplayer...with dozens of trainers out there, it's pretty easy for any user to modify their coefficients for speed->power and dominate, or simply lie about what trainer they have. I personally feel that a lot of riders just wanna hop on, get their workout done with the least boredom, and get off the trainer ASAP. Multiplayer gets more into the "game" aspect of things, so it'd be something I implement later. Considering I'm the sole user, it's low on the list at the moment.

I do like the idea of real routes, and had looked at data google has for use, but wasn't that impressed. More courses will be coming soon, but they'll be abstract like what I've got now, and based more on themes like "tropical island", "snowy forest", etc. Scenes are created programatically right now...randomly generated to a certain extent.

Others have mentioned to not worry about the steering. Don't worry guys, 90% of the time I don't use my steering joystick. Your bike ends up being totally controlled by the computer along the path if the controller isnt plugged in. I generally don't want to deal with steering during my workouts anyway. The AI's (and your own rider) do appear to "draft" and then slowly pass on the left automatically, altho there are admittedly quite a few things left to be desired in my AI programming.

There's a certain "fun" element that still isn't totally there, and the AI racers have helped, but I think ghost riders of past performances will help. This app also of course can be run in a "slim" mode so you can just run it next to netflix on your desktop or whatever. Sometimes you just wanna watch a movie or tv show, ya know?


papson14

Apr 15, 12 13:38

Post #30 of 86 (5562 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [jmX] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Looks awesome. Maybe some resourceful company will see this and pay you for it. Either way, I like it.


glazebal

Apr 15, 12 15:53

Post #31 of 86 (5511 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [papson14] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Very awesome... do you have any way to post a video? Also shoot me a PM if you ever need any help with graphics ;).


Rhymenocerus

Apr 15, 12 16:11

Post #32 of 86 (5495 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [jmX] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

This is beyond awesome and im sure you just pissed off a lot of manufacturers. :) Release it!


cervelott

Apr 15, 12 16:19

Post #33 of 86 (5489 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [Rhymenocerus] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Dude, you are one seriously smart guy! I couldn't do that if you gave me the rest of my life to accomplish it.


Marco in BC

Apr 15, 12 16:30

Post #34 of 86 (5480 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [glazebal] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

glazebal wrote:
Very awesome... do you have any way to post a video? Also shoot me a PM if you ever need any help with graphics ;).

check his webpage, he has a youtube video posted of things.

--
A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer.


z2009

Apr 15, 12 16:50

Post #35 of 86 (5469 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [jmX] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

here's my idea for what i want to see for the future of trainerroad/this or some other app:

i don't really care about some game mode or anything, just a cool 3d environment with recreations of actual stages and races, then have it all connected online. Then, while you're riding the course you can see where other people are and the only game is just being able to pass by other users of the app. I think this would create a sort of online community where you can actually do a "group ride" on a closed course with your buddies from anywhere in the world. You hit on the problems of cheating, and sure it's going to happen, but I think if you create a community where you can bond with cyclists of similar ability and just push each other while riding together on a virtual course, that would be super slick. Or you can just jump on the "app-wide" course and see all the other cyclists riding the course and just play a single player game of trying to pass as many people as possible.

Something along those lines. I really like trainerroad, but I wish there was more of a community aspect to it + 3d courses would be super slick.


dseiler

Apr 15, 12 20:07

Post #36 of 86 (5400 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [jmX] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

jmX wrote:
Anyway, here's some screens of it in action (All screens taken at 1920x1080 with 4xAA)

[..]
Lemme know what you guys think, and suggestions for things you'd like to see would be interesting to hear too.

Nicely done. Not sure when you find time to do it, with a family, a job, and training, too. As a new dad, I can certainly feel for you and have dusted off my trainer since outdoor cycling time is limited, regardless of how nice the weather in south Texas is right now.

That said, I am curious if bikes are or will be able to be customized. From the above shot, I'm guessing you ride (or wish you did ride) a Zipp-equipped Specialized. Should you elect to release this (and I do hope you do -- fee or not, this, as others have said, is levels above & beyond what is out there now -- and without requiring any special equipment, too!), selecting a type (road/TT/MTB) and/or brand of bike would be a nice feature. But would that then require licensing from a given manufacturer?

Again, nice work.


Join the fight against MS!
http://off242.com/donate


camaleon

Apr 16, 12 4:55

Post #37 of 86 (5334 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [GMAN19030] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

GMAN19030 wrote:
hillier99 wrote:
grosso27 wrote:
So it's TrainerRoad but with 3d visual interface? WANT! Where can I send my check?


The trainerroad programming guys just had a heart attack.

Brad


I agree.

at some point some body is going to offer what Trainer road has plus some more for less or free...

mark my word

----------------
Often times, the quality work are hard stuff and stuff that you don't want to do, and as a result, too many people end up doing a ton of work they don't need and not enough of the stuff they do need. - echappist


jmX

Apr 16, 12 9:44

Post #38 of 86 (5276 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [camaleon] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

camaleon wrote:
at some point some body is going to offer what Trainer road has plus some more for less or free...

mark my word

I'll be realizing a free version at some point for sure. It won't be the full featured thing I'm showing here, but certainly it'd let you do workouts and calf power from trainer speed.

I'll also be realizing a utility that will take any garmin fit file that you might record while riding on a trainer and process it so that it'll have power data inside it. This will be a super simple utility, but may be of some use.


jmX

Apr 16, 12 12:56

Post #39 of 86 (5206 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [off242] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

off242 wrote:
As a new dad, I can certainly feel for you and have dusted off my trainer since outdoor cycling time is limited, regardless of how nice the weather in south Texas is right now.

That said, I am curious if bikes are or will be able to be customized. From the above shot, I'm guessing you ride (or wish you did ride) a Zipp-equipped Specialized. Should you elect to release this (and I do hope you do -- fee or not, this, as others have said, is levels above & beyond what is out there now -- and without requiring any special equipment, too!), selecting a type (road/TT/MTB) and/or brand of bike would be a nice feature. But would that then require licensing from a given manufacturer?

Again, nice work.

Exactly, the reason I end up on the trainer is almost never weather related, it's because it's 10pm by the time I can get a workout in!

As for the bike customization, it'll be pretty simple. Probably choose rim depth, pick from a few 'generic' frames, pick the color, and then advanced users could save out a logo they want plastered onto the bike downtube so you could brand it however you want. Maybe allow the same custom logos on the wheels. If people wanna make a Specialized bike with Zipp rims, then so be it, but I probably won't be able to provide those logos myself for obvious reasons. And yeah, that's my bike with rims I wish I had. :D


tryguy67

Apr 16, 12 13:24

Post #40 of 86 (5183 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [jmX] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

jmX wrote:
off242 wrote:
And yeah, that's my bike with rims I wish I had. :D

Release this (even with a freeware donation bar) and I think you'll get these wheels and a whole lot more. Great Job


marcag

Apr 16, 12 13:47

Post #41 of 86 (5149 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [camaleon] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

camaleon wrote:

at some point some body is going to offer what Trainer road has plus some more for less or free...

mark my word

Doesn't Golden Cheetah Version 3 do that ? Do you know what TR has that GC doesn't ?

I think what Trainer Road does offer however is training plans.


TriScott

Apr 16, 12 14:17

Post #42 of 86 (5115 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [jmX] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Very pretty.

You could integrate this with the Trainer Road folks. They could create a 3D mode along the lines of their current Sufferfest mode. You'd need enough communication between the apps to tell what the target power, heartrate, ... should be or be able to read their workout files. You may have to decide who can talk to the ANT stick directly. I don't know how well it handles multiple apps reading from it.

Just a thought.

-- Scott


VO2Matt

Apr 16, 12 18:52

Post #43 of 86 (5038 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [jmX] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

This thing looks awesome. If you could add battle mode like in mario kart, this would be the greatest thing ever created.

One thing that would be really cool would be the ability to load a ride and race a ghost rider. So you could perform a TT and then race yourself..... or get a power profile from someone else (or a pro) and race them virtually. You might even be able to use google maps data to generate realistic terrain to match the course...although without feedback (e.g. computrainer), the hills would be sort of odd. Oh, I also recently learned that all of the street view cars also were running high resolution line scan lidars, so they have a full 3D map of everything imaged....imagine getting your hands on that data set.


sometimes you just have to eat the cake


mcmetal

Apr 18, 12 6:56

Post #44 of 86 (4917 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [jmX] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

How does course customization work? Is it static graphics or randomly generated based on the incline/decline of the course?


heliix

Apr 18, 12 10:03

Post #45 of 86 (4866 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [jmX] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

What would be cool is to use a ghost pacer as an interval start and stop.
You keep up with the pacer for intervals and the ghost pacer slows down when the interval is in the rest period.

“One of the benefits of freedom is people can disagree. It’s fair to say I created plenty of opportunity to exercise that right. “ G.W. Bush


blitzkrieg

Apr 18, 12 11:13

Post #46 of 86 (4822 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [AwesomePossum] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

AwesomePossum wrote:
any chance we could get a beta version to test out?

X2. Testing this out would be so cool!

This is an awesome initiative and whether you choose to combine with three TR or go solo, I hope it kicks off and you can quit your job like the rest of them!

formerly parichitb.
Duathlete by choice?
http://parigari.blogspot.ca/


Tri Nut

Apr 18, 12 13:16

Post #47 of 86 (4764 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [jmX] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Wow... nice work! Talk to the trainer road guys and see if they want to partner with you or just sell it to them and take their money :)

My only concern with something with that much graphics is the amount of power it needs to run it smooth on a pc or mac. I've been using trainer road all year and even though they kept graphics to minimum unless you are running sufferfest videos, I still from time to time loose ANT+ signal because my computer decide to do something else right when there is an attack in fight club and keeps me hanging at 150%+ FTP :(

I do like how you have the max and avg on speed, power, and cadence.
------------------------------------------------------
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Miguelon

Apr 18, 12 14:43

Post #48 of 86 (4727 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [jmX] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Very impressed! Congratulations. And this was done working part-time (even more impressive). This puts the full time team of developers of RealAxiom, CompuTrainer and Tacx software to shame.

I own a RealAxiom trainer and although it works fine (most of the time), the software is dull, buggy and not very flexible.


jmX

Apr 18, 12 18:16

Post #49 of 86 (4675 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [heliix] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

packetloss wrote:
How does course customization work? Is it static graphics or randomly generated based on the incline/decline of the course?


There is no course customization. All I have planned at the moment are a set of tracks through different scenery types. Right now the track I'm using is a 5km curvy loop through a forest, and is 100% generated by the code based on some random numbers.

VO2Matt wrote:
One thing that would be really cool would be the ability to load a ride and race a ghost rider. So you could perform a TT and then race yourself.....



heliix wrote:
What would be cool is to use a ghost pacer as an interval start and stop.
You keep up with the pacer for intervals and the ghost pacer slows down when the interval is in the rest period.


The ghost pacer is partially in there to race past performances, but I hadn't considered using it for intervals. I could see that maybe working nicely.

3Dealz wrote:
My only concern with something with that much graphics is the amount of power it needs to run it smooth on a pc or mac. I've been using trainer road all year and even though they kept graphics to minimum unless you are running sufferfest videos, I still from time to time loose ANT+ signal because my computer decide to do something else


It does take a decent amount of computer power, but I have it running on a $500 mac mini so the program does scale to a certain extent. Just how slow is your PC? It's going to be similar to PC games, if you want the fanciest highest res graphics you'll need a nice video card - however - slower graphics cards will still be usable at lower resolutions and with a few less features turned on.

Thanks for the other comments guys. I don't foresee merging with Trainer Road as I think we're going down very different paths towards different end results.


(This post was edited by jmX on Apr 18, 12 18:22)


Miguelon

Apr 19, 12 7:10

Post #50 of 86 (4599 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [jmX] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Are you planning to make an Android phone version of the software? Just kidding... Maybe

Did you have to write part of it using assembly language? What did you use to write the programming i.e. Java or Visual C++?


orphious

Apr 19, 12 7:31

Post #51 of 86 (5290 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [Miguelon] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Miguelon wrote:
Very impressed! Congratulations. And this was done working part-time (even more impressive). This puts the full time team of developers of RealAxiom, CompuTrainer and Tacx software to shame.

I own a RealAxiom trainer and although it works fine (most of the time), the software is dull, buggy and not very flexible.

Not really. I honestly could careless about pretty graphics or a video game mode. To me that is just gimmac to entice you to purchase. At the end of the day what the program needs to do is make you a better cyclist. I must admint I am a little biased toward Computrainer since I own one. Most of my time on the trainer was spent in coaching mode until Trainer Road came along. The biggest thing that needs to be implemented with CT or any other erg trainer for that matter is a workout program and the program must have the ability to adjust the workouts based off your FTP. Creating erg files is such a pita!!!! Thats why Erg video is so popular for CT and why I really like Trainer Road.

I have been beta testing RacerMate 1 now for sometime. The route Racermate chose with their 3D program was to improve functioanality before graphics in which they have succeeded. You can now add up to 8 pacers based on FTP, heart rate, past performance, and more. The pacers have some AI built in too. For example if I add a 200 watt pacer and I ride at 150 watts, the 200 watt pacer wont just take off on you. As you start to push 200 watts and beyond, and catch up to the pacer the pacer will then start laying down the watts when you catch him. Hang with him and you know you are pushing 200 watts. Push more than 200 watts and you pass him.

Again, the only thing lacking and I have this in their "wish list" is the ability to have the workouts based off your FTP with out having to create a new erg file everytime your FTP changes. I used the their PIG program for example. I did the PIG program for the 1st week then gave up because I didn't want to bother with creating all the erg files. It would be nice just to have the owrkouts precreated and then after you input your FTP they adjust accordingly. Also this would need to have the ablity to adjust the intensity of the workout while doing them as well.


johanandbex

Apr 19, 12 8:05

Post #52 of 86 (5276 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [jmX] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I want to buy this now. I dont care if it has bugs and crashes I still want it now. Can I beta test it too? I have used a number of programs to train with and all are pretty dull. I got so bored I now just sit on my trainer, put the software into fixed power mode and I use sufferfest vids to motivate me! what you have here looks awesome! Can I overtake other virtual riders depending on how fast I am going?
I feel a slight panic now that this is just going to fade into the background and never become a reality! make it a reality...please.
cheers for posting. my christmas list will now look confusing as it will be a url to this thread!
http://longwaytogo-ironman.blogspot.com/


jmX

Apr 19, 12 13:55

Post #53 of 86 (5238 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [johanandbex] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

orphius wrote:
I honestly could careless about pretty graphics or a video game mode. To me that is just gimmac to entice you to purchase. At the end of the day what the program needs to do is make you a better cyclist.

I'm not sure "gimmick" is what I'd call it, and at the moment there is nothing to purchase. Everything I wrote is because *I* wanted it, and I don't feel like I've wasted time on gimmicks. The whole point of the program is training. The program will show you your full workout timeline, tell you when to start what and how hard to go. It'll sound some alarms if you're not in the correct range (intervals can be based on HR, watts, or speed). At the end of the day, the whole point is to get me to do my workouts, and get me off the blasted trainer ASAP with the least amount of boredom.


The graphics just happen to be fancy because that is what I do for a living, and it not a big deal for me to put in a little effort to get something nicer looking. I'm guessing most people probably wont care about the graphics - all the computrainer owners are proof of this.


johanandbex wrote:
I want to buy this now. I dont care if it has bugs and crashes I still want it now. Can I beta test it too? I have used a number of programs to train with and all are pretty dull. I got so bored I now just sit on my trainer, put the software into fixed power mode and I use sufferfest vids to motivate me! what you have here looks awesome! Can I overtake other virtual riders depending on how fast I am going?

I feel a slight panic now that this is just going to fade into the background and never become a reality! make it a reality...please.
cheers for posting. my christmas list will now look confusing as it will be a url to this thread!


Sadly I do think your panic is well founded. I will work on it more over the summer, but the chances of having something that I'd be comfortable distributing is pretty slim. Only time will tell. I do appreciate your excitement about it, and it does make me want to work towards an end goal a bit more. Cheers.


johanandbex

Apr 19, 12 21:32

Post #54 of 86 (5193 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [jmX] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

If you are not interested in making money from this (which I think you should be but everyone to their own) then what about opening it up to the ST community and opensource community as a whole and see if between us all we can make a really really great bit of software. I would donate to that and I am sure there are a lot of IT specialits on here that could help if they wanted to. Having seen the screen shots it pains me to think of using what I have at home again! I spend a lot of time on my trainer and so would really love to see something better out there. What about one of the software companies out there buying this up and then taking what looks already great and putting some man hours behind it (you are only 1 so there is a limit to how much time you can spend on this I guess).
Anyway, I really hope this goes further and well done for what you have already achieved. I am a programmer (not in fun stuff like that though, financial crap) and I never realised that 1 person could put something like this together...google here I come..."build bike trainer software" search coming up!

Cheers
Johan
UK
http://longwaytogo-ironman.blogspot.com/


orphious

Apr 20, 12 6:58

Post #55 of 86 (5151 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [jmX] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

jmX wrote:
orphius wrote:
I honestly could careless about pretty graphics or a video game mode. To me that is just gimmac to entice you to purchase. At the end of the day what the program needs to do is make you a better cyclist.


I'm not sure "gimmick" is what I'd call it, and at the moment there is nothing to purchase. Everything I wrote is because *I* wanted it, and I don't feel like I've wasted time on gimmicks. The whole point of the program is training. The program will show you your full workout timeline, tell you when to start what and how hard to go. It'll sound some alarms if you're not in the correct range (intervals can be based on HR, watts, or speed). At the end of the day, the whole point is to get me to do my workouts, and get me off the blasted trainer ASAP with the least amount of boredom.


The graphics just happen to be fancy because that is what I do for a living, and it not a big deal for me to put in a little effort to get something nicer looking. I'm guessing most people probably wont care about the graphics - all the computrainer owners are proof of this.


johanandbex wrote:
I want to buy this now. I dont care if it has bugs and crashes I still want it now. Can I beta test it too? I have used a number of programs to train with and all are pretty dull. I got so bored I now just sit on my trainer, put the software into fixed power mode and I use sufferfest vids to motivate me! what you have here looks awesome! Can I overtake other virtual riders depending on how fast I am going?

I feel a slight panic now that this is just going to fade into the background and never become a reality! make it a reality...please.
cheers for posting. my christmas list will now look confusing as it will be a url to this thread!


Sadly I do think your panic is well founded. I will work on it more over the summer, but the chances of having something that I'd be comfortable distributing is pretty slim. Only time will tell. I do appreciate your excitement about it, and it does make me want to work towards an end goal a bit more. Cheers.

Sorry about my choice of words. Your're right gimmack was the wrong word. I was just trying to make the point of what I would look for in purchasing trainer software, The software has to be functional and not just have pretty graphics. I certainly did not mean to insult your hard work in any way and I apologize if I did. The work you have done is very very good.


Miguelon

Apr 20, 12 12:02

Post #56 of 86 (5115 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [johanandbex] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

johanandbex wrote:
If you are not interested in making money from this (which I think you should be but everyone to their own) then what about opening it up to the ST community and opensource community as a whole and see if between us all we can make a really really great bit of software. I would donate to that and I am sure there are a lot of IT specialits on here that could help if they wanted to. Having seen the screen shots it pains me to think of using what I have at home again! I spend a lot of time on my trainer and so would really love to see something better out there. What about one of the software companies out there buying this up and then taking what looks already great and putting some man hours behind it (you are only 1 so there is a limit to how much time you can spend on this I guess).
Anyway, I really hope this goes further and well done for what you have already achieved. I am a programmer (not in fun stuff like that though, financial crap) and I never realised that 1 person could put something like this together...google here I come..."build bike trainer software" search coming up!

Cheers
Johan
UK

Software engineer here. I agree. I could volunteer time and provide help to improve the software.


Miguelon

Apr 20, 12 12:07

Post #57 of 86 (5113 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [orphious] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Graphics are important. It helps in stimulating the brain. I'm sure that you rather be staring at a monitor with nice graphics relevant to the type of training you are doing than stare at an empty wall. Graphics sure add a fun factor and kills the boredom of training indoors.


(This post was edited by Miguelon on Apr 20, 12 12:08)


orphious

Apr 20, 12 12:10

Post #58 of 86 (5108 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [Miguelon] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Not really. I am fine with watching the Interval Graphs and how much more of a particular interval I have left. Also, since I am using a CT, I don't need to pay attention to much so I can throw on a movie or watch TV. CT forces you to do the work.


Miguelon

Apr 20, 12 12:31

Post #59 of 86 (5088 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [orphious] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

More power to you man.


jenkinsbr

Apr 20, 12 12:44

Post #60 of 86 (5069 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [jmX] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Mad props to you. I can't believe Garmin or another large company aren't all over this. If Computrainer sees this form, I would be concerned....it may beat the release of their new software that's been promised...


tryguy67

Apr 20, 12 13:37

Post #61 of 86 (5050 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [jenkinsbr] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I'm surprised the op hasn't had an offer to buy the program from a major company.


OwenLisa

Apr 20, 12 14:45

Post #62 of 86 (5026 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [tryguy67] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

They might be slow with development but it looks like bigger companies are starting to explore this market.


http://virtualtraining.cycleops.com/


camaleon

Apr 20, 12 15:35

Post #63 of 86 (5003 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [OwenLisa] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

OwenLisa wrote:
They might be slow with development but it looks like bigger companies are starting to explore this market.


http://virtualtraining.cycleops.com/

bingo...

I said it

----------------
Often times, the quality work are hard stuff and stuff that you don't want to do, and as a result, too many people end up doing a ton of work they don't need and not enough of the stuff they do need. - echappist


TriangleIL

Apr 21, 12 13:43

Post #64 of 86 (4774 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [camaleon] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I would definitely offer to help on this project. I could handle a lot of the server code and related multi-player code needed to link players in a multi-player game. I have some extensive experience in this area, feel free to reach out if you would be interested in having help on the project. This looks really great.

Also, it would be interesting to look into custom hardware to provide a feedback loop.


jmX

Apr 23, 12 1:08

Post #65 of 86 (4457 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [TriangleIL] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

TriangleIL wrote:
I would definitely offer to help on this project. I could handle a lot of the server code and related multi-player code needed to link players in a multi-player game. I have some extensive experience in this area, feel free to reach out if you would be interested in having help on the project. This looks really great.

Also, it would be interesting to look into custom hardware to provide a feedback loop.

The first version will be local host only, no online multiplayer. If it turns out people actually do want some 3d software to train on and it catches on, multiplayer will be added and I may shoot you a PM.

I do wonder what you mean by hardware to provide a feedback loop. Can you clarify?


eSeNKay

Apr 23, 12 7:49

Post #66 of 86 (4339 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [jmX] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Gotta say I love how this looks, if this project becomes available to the public I'll be all over it.


TriangleIL

Apr 23, 12 8:12

Post #67 of 86 (4327 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [jmX] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

This may just be naivety on my part, as I don't currently - own - a trainer. I am actually just getting into this sport (coming from running only) and had stumbled across this thread and as a software developer myself found it very exciting.

Anyways, for hardware feedback, I was referring to increasing or decreasing the difficulty of the trainer based on the ascent/descent of the courses you are training on. I.e. if you ended up pulling topo maps from google, or found an interesting way to develop actual tri/IM courses into your application, adjusting the trainer automatically while going up a hill would be awesome.

Of course, there is already probably something out there that does this, so please excuse my ignorance if it exists already.

Good luck with the future programming, this is a very exciting project.


Marco in BC

Apr 23, 12 8:23

Post #68 of 86 (4316 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [TriangleIL] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

TriangleIL wrote:
I was referring to increasing or decreasing the difficulty of the trainer based on the ascent/descent of the courses you are training on.

unless you have a computrainer that'd be hard to do... the only other way to simulate it that I can think of would be to interface with the electronic shifters and shift up/down automatically depending on course/workout, but that seems a bit hacky

--
A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer.


TriangleIL

Apr 23, 12 9:27

Post #69 of 86 (4291 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [Marco in BC] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I was envisioning - the product could be stepped up to production scale and then an optional component would be a USB trainer, that would be controlled by the application to increase or decrease the resistance. Another interesting piece would be to display the current gear, but that would require something like Flight Deck I'm assuming? Sorry, just thinking out loud.


Magwister

Apr 23, 12 12:21

Post #70 of 86 (4225 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [jmX] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

This is pretty amazing. TrainerRoad is cool but it does lack the visual stimulation. The steering is a cool idea as it is something else to concentrate on and take your mind off the pain but definitely not an important factor. Although if you somehow got a massive budget and developed worlds allowing you to steer down any street, off-road (mountain bike option), etc, in a world city that would be the greatest thing ever (slight exaggeration but you know what i mean). Like the ghost rider idea and like the online 'play'...whether as a bunch start/race or just passing people that happen to be on the same course/route. BTW, Elite had a basic-ish trainer (InOut) where there was electronic adjustment of the resistance (magnetic) that could definitely be controlled by something like this without spending the money for a high-end trainer unit. Could probably get money from bike companies as well for advertising and again, if you had a massive budget, you could replicate the handling characteristics of the different bikes like in the Gran Turismo games for cars, and in different weather conditions although this is completely unpractical for this market...would make steering more of a big deal and probably more relevant to cyclists and not triathletes (crit racing could be fun without the pain from crashes).

Anyway, good stuff.


mcmetal

Apr 23, 12 12:21

Post #71 of 86 (4225 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [jmX] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

jmX wrote:
packetloss wrote:
How does course customization work? Is it static graphics or randomly generated based on the incline/decline of the course?


There is no course customization. All I have planned at the moment are a set of tracks through different scenery types. Right now the track I'm using is a 5km curvy loop through a forest, and is 100% generated by the code based on some random numbers.

Just to make sure I'm understanding correctly. In theory, you could take a given GPS course and it would randomly generate the terrain for it. You wouldn't need to hand design and hand place the scenery for each and every course?

I guess incline/decline doesn't matter at the moment, but if you did add support for controllable trainers like the Computrainer, Powerbeam or Tacx, your engine could handle any assortment of such courses and you wouldn't have to hand design each one?


BodyLinkSystems

Apr 23, 12 14:19

Post #72 of 86 (4170 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [jmX] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Quote:
I would definitely offer to help on this project. I could handle a lot of the server code and related multi-player code needed to link players in a multi-player game. I have some extensive experience in this area, feel free to reach out if you would be interested in having help on the project. This looks really great. The first version will be local host only, no online multiplayer. If it turns out people actually do want some 3d software to train on and it catches on, multiplayer will be added and I may shoot you a PM.

This is great to see. I built something like this (non-3D) well over 2 years ago and I don't think people "got it". The responses here make me feel otherwise and now I am eager to get back into developing it. I also presented the idea to a few of the big digital fitness brands, and no official bites - yet it seems like they all have things of their own in the works now... I built mine to work with both Polar and ANT+, and am a member ANT+ developer. Placeholder site at www.BodyLinkSystems.com The videos are listed at vimeo.com/bodylinksystems and show linear transformations of real-time speed, power, cal, etc.. wrt multiplayer. Speed data controls video speed, etc.

I am really attracted to the online gaming aspect of it, and initially built mine to offset couch potato tendencies during football season. My background is in interactive/social TV, so I was envisioning it as a competitive freemium app that would run on all video platforms, either at home or at the gym (connectedTV, xbox). Right now, I use mine just about every day (mac only) and am looking forward to some sort of online "play". Ghost riders could take care of the asynchronous play bit, which is what makes mobile games like Words With Friends so popular. Definitely a step up from a "virtual partner". I have thought about the "cheating" aspect of it, and the best solution is social with a set of trusted "friends". The way I figure, If you are that much faster than me, you'd be more than happy to allow a speed enhancement just to make the training (game) more fun. Think modified golf handicaps here.

jmX and Triangle, Please feel free to reach out at info@bodylinksystems.com if you'd like testers and/or help with this. Would be happy to share and collaborate, and I've been looking to implement the multiplayer bit for a while. Even if it's just chasing a dot powered by a real person, in real time.


jmX

Apr 23, 12 19:36

Post #73 of 86 (4096 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [packetloss] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

packetloss wrote:

Just to make sure I'm understanding correctly. In theory, you could take a given GPS course and it would randomly generate the terrain for it. You wouldn't need to hand design and hand place the scenery for each and every course?

I guess incline/decline doesn't matter at the moment, but if you did add support for controllable trainers like the Computrainer, Powerbeam or Tacx, your engine could handle any assortment of such courses and you wouldn't have to hand design each one?

It takes a series of points and creates a smooth road based on those points, so I suppose a series of GPS based points could serve as the input. I've had somebody come forward offering to discuss how some computer controlled variable resistance trainers work so support for those could be added, however I do not have the budget for buying $1000 trainers at the moment - not to mention avoiding buying those is half the reason I started writing this thing.

I'll look into GPS inputs and see if anything neat falls out of that with minimal effort. I'm not sure the *shape* of the course really matters at all, but maybe I'll change my tune once I try it.


jmX

Apr 23, 12 19:38

Post #74 of 86 (4094 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [TriangleIL] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

TriangleIL wrote:
Another interesting piece would be to display the current gear, but that would require something like Flight Deck I'm assuming? Sorry, just thinking out loud.

The program does that now (I know cadence and I know wheel RPM...so the math is pretty simple from there) however it turns out to be nothing more than a party trick. I'm not sure if its useful in any way. Is there a reason you'd want that?


jmX

Apr 23, 12 19:45

Post #75 of 86 (4091 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [BodyLinkSystems] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Magwister, thanks for the ideas. I do love gran turismo and it sure would be neat if you could improve your bike in the app and then go "feel" the differences, but alas, the only real benefit we normally get is a lighter wallet. I could play some wooshing sounds for those who are riding on deep rims ;)

BodyLinkSystems, got your email. I'll read through it and get back to you tonight or tomorrow. I like to hear from others that took the initiative to make something they wanted. I'm also interested in OSX video playback tech, right now my app only plays videos on the windows version, and even then I'm pretty disappointed with the minefield of codec issues and filtergraph headaches. Did you use FFMPEG?


TriangleIL

Apr 23, 12 20:15

Post #76 of 86 (3651 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [jmX] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

jmX wrote:
TriangleIL wrote:
Another interesting piece would be to display the current gear, but that would require something like Flight Deck I'm assuming? Sorry, just thinking out loud.


The program does that now (I know cadence and I know wheel RPM...so the math is pretty simple from there) however it turns out to be nothing more than a party trick. I'm not sure if its useful in any way. Is there a reason you'd want that?

I was mainly looking at the current gear for another interesting data point that could be logged, graphed and analyzed after a ride. Perhaps that isn't very interesting, but I could see a lot of data heads looking at it (comparing rides across different gears with the ride being the same distance, etc.)

I'm usually a big data head when it comes to this kind of stuff (my Polar for running is extremely addictive).


BodyLinkSystems

Apr 23, 12 20:32

Post #77 of 86 (3647 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [jmX] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

jmX, I look forward to your reply, and am happy to share and trade. I used Quartz Composer to Xcode to .app as my workflow, so alot of custom modules were used. Kineme.net is a good source for these things as the guy who runs the site took a job with Apple on QC. The video I employ uses a video playback module that uses QT as a wrapper, and I just control the data layers much like you would in a photoshop design - except they are plugged into data streams from the ANT+ stream. The polar implementation used a small custom program to read the realtime polar data. I like the QC implementation because it is all vector-based, which makes the graphics look good on any platform. Some of the early implementations I saw looked really rough, so I am really happy to see yours in such a good-looking state.

From there, you can use the data to control the speed of the video, etc. which makes it good for running and cycling along with recorded routes via a gopro or contour. There are quite a few telemetry apps that will post-produce stuff, but as you can see from my videos, mine is real-time. I prefer to just overlay the numbers over a nice sufferfest or CTS video for my workouts.
BodyLinkSystems.com


kostya416

Apr 28, 12 23:04

Post #78 of 86 (3494 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [jmX] (Deleted by kostya416) [In reply to]

 


kostya416

Apr 28, 12 23:09

Post #79 of 86 (3491 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [jmX] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

jmX wrote:
... I've had somebody come forward offering to discuss how some computer controlled variable resistance trainers work so support for those could be added, however I do not have the budget for buying $1000 trainers at the moment - not to mention avoiding buying those is half the reason I started writing this thing.

That was probably me.

It did take me 2 years and to build my own trainer. I'd say it is very high end device. It provides physically correct simulation for both positive and negative torque (meaning it simulates inertia as well as resistance). Does it 500 time/s so it feels like a real riding also thanks to unique flexible mounting system and is very quiet. Can't say much more at this point. In any case anyone who ever tried this trainer had only one question: that is when can I buy one (those were people who already own computrainers and Tacx Fortius). I've finally found factory that is going to produce those so you'll have more info very soon.

Reason I contacted you is that even though I am very experienced software developer, I've never dealt with producing games. So I have no problems working with Ant+ sensors, doing Real Life Video as TACX, controlling devices and writing firmware etc. etc. but for doing 3D stuff I thought it'd be probably easier to find person with the real experience in the area rather then learning it myself. Obviously you were not interested since after our initial conversation you never got back to me.


toebutt769

Apr 29, 12 8:41

Post #80 of 86 (3409 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [jmX] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

i don't know if someone else mentioned this...but theoretically, couldn't you code something that would work with the PS3/XBOX 360 camera systems that capture your motion? or what if there was an ANT+ receiver that you could plug into your video game console, and picked up all your HR, speed, cadence, power and put it into the game.....along with potential google maps sourcing since everything is based off of the internet at this point.

the stuff looks good.


tribritre

Apr 29, 12 9:20

Post #81 of 86 (3401 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [jmX] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

 
JmX + Sufferfest = DOMINATION

http://www.kickstarter.com/

Make it happen!

Later!

Brian
Swim. Bike. Run. Repeat as necessary.
Welcome to the Church of Briantriology!


beanmj

Jun 19, 12 10:25

Post #82 of 86 (3059 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [Miguelon] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Miguelon wrote:
Graphics are important. It helps in stimulating the brain. I'm sure that you rather be staring at a monitor with nice graphics relevant to the type of training you are doing than stare at an empty wall. Graphics sure add a fun factor and kills the boredom of training indoors.

The graphics are cool but I'd more often use it with the data overlaid on top of some video (be it a DVD, downloaded, or netflix) running through an HTPC.


bk227865

Jul 10, 12 1:05

Post #83 of 86 (2863 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [jmX] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

To bridge the gap while this awesome software becomes available, the iphone/ipad user among us might take a look at "cogmon bike" by GameWax on the itunes store.

Its seems to look roughly comparable although it does not look nearly as polished or has as many features as jmX's software.
I haven't been able to try it out myself as my Wahoo ant+ dongle for my ipad is still beeing delivered so it might be total junk too.
I will let you know what i think of it in a few days when i get my dongle, hopefully.

edit : they seem to have a "run" app also.


(This post was edited by bk227865 on Jul 10, 12 1:07)


jmX

Jul 10, 12 1:34

Post #84 of 86 (2850 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [bk227865] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I dunno, that looks pretty advanced to me. The graphics aren't as shiny, but it's full featured and probably "good enough".

Of course I'll still be working on mine, and I'm starting the iPad version this month. My wahoo dongle showed up today.


BodyLinkSystems

Jul 10, 12 13:00

Post #85 of 86 (2691 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [jmX] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Can't you just use the existing Garmin ANT+ stick and an iPad camera connection kit? At least for testing? I haven't done it, but someone suggested it to me. I think there might be issues with signing the app in that case.

If someone wants to work with me to port my app to the GoogleTV platform, get in touch.


jmX wrote:
I dunno, that looks pretty advanced to me. The graphics aren't as shiny, but it's full featured and probably "good enough".

Of course I'll still be working on mine, and I'm starting the iPad version this month. My wahoo dongle showed up today.
BodyLinkSystems.com


quellish

Jul 10, 12 15:04

Post #86 of 86 (2622 views)
Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [BodyLinkSystems] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

BodyLinkSystems wrote:
Can't you just use the existing Garmin ANT+ stick and an iPad camera connection kit? At least for testing? I haven't done it, but someone suggested it to me. I think there might be issues with signing the app in that case.

Nope.

--------------------------------------------------
Yeah, it's a great bike but the engine needs work.

 
 
 
 



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