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Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [Miguelon] [ In reply to ]
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Miguelon wrote:
Very impressed! Congratulations. And this was done working part-time (even more impressive). This puts the full time team of developers of RealAxiom, CompuTrainer and Tacx software to shame.

I own a RealAxiom trainer and although it works fine (most of the time), the software is dull, buggy and not very flexible.

Not really. I honestly could careless about pretty graphics or a video game mode. To me that is just gimmac to entice you to purchase. At the end of the day what the program needs to do is make you a better cyclist. I must admint I am a little biased toward Computrainer since I own one. Most of my time on the trainer was spent in coaching mode until Trainer Road came along. The biggest thing that needs to be implemented with CT or any other erg trainer for that matter is a workout program and the program must have the ability to adjust the workouts based off your FTP. Creating erg files is such a pita!!!! Thats why Erg video is so popular for CT and why I really like Trainer Road.

I have been beta testing RacerMate 1 now for sometime. The route Racermate chose with their 3D program was to improve functioanality before graphics in which they have succeeded. You can now add up to 8 pacers based on FTP, heart rate, past performance, and more. The pacers have some AI built in too. For example if I add a 200 watt pacer and I ride at 150 watts, the 200 watt pacer wont just take off on you. As you start to push 200 watts and beyond, and catch up to the pacer the pacer will then start laying down the watts when you catch him. Hang with him and you know you are pushing 200 watts. Push more than 200 watts and you pass him.

Again, the only thing lacking and I have this in their "wish list" is the ability to have the workouts based off your FTP with out having to create a new erg file everytime your FTP changes. I used the their PIG program for example. I did the PIG program for the 1st week then gave up because I didn't want to bother with creating all the erg files. It would be nice just to have the owrkouts precreated and then after you input your FTP they adjust accordingly. Also this would need to have the ablity to adjust the intensity of the workout while doing them as well.
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Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [jmX] [ In reply to ]
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I want to buy this now. I dont care if it has bugs and crashes I still want it now. Can I beta test it too? I have used a number of programs to train with and all are pretty dull. I got so bored I now just sit on my trainer, put the software into fixed power mode and I use sufferfest vids to motivate me! what you have here looks awesome! Can I overtake other virtual riders depending on how fast I am going?
I feel a slight panic now that this is just going to fade into the background and never become a reality! make it a reality...please.
cheers for posting. my christmas list will now look confusing as it will be a url to this thread!

http://longwaytogo-ironman.blogspot.com/
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Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [johanandbex] [ In reply to ]
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orphius wrote:
I honestly could careless about pretty graphics or a video game mode. To me that is just gimmac to entice you to purchase. At the end of the day what the program needs to do is make you a better cyclist.

I'm not sure "gimmick" is what I'd call it, and at the moment there is nothing to purchase. Everything I wrote is because *I* wanted it, and I don't feel like I've wasted time on gimmicks. The whole point of the program is training. The program will show you your full workout timeline, tell you when to start what and how hard to go. It'll sound some alarms if you're not in the correct range (intervals can be based on HR, watts, or speed). At the end of the day, the whole point is to get me to do my workouts, and get me off the blasted trainer ASAP with the least amount of boredom.


The graphics just happen to be fancy because that is what I do for a living, and it not a big deal for me to put in a little effort to get something nicer looking. I'm guessing most people probably wont care about the graphics - all the computrainer owners are proof of this.


johanandbex wrote:
I want to buy this now. I dont care if it has bugs and crashes I still want it now. Can I beta test it too? I have used a number of programs to train with and all are pretty dull. I got so bored I now just sit on my trainer, put the software into fixed power mode and I use sufferfest vids to motivate me! what you have here looks awesome! Can I overtake other virtual riders depending on how fast I am going?

I feel a slight panic now that this is just going to fade into the background and never become a reality! make it a reality...please.
cheers for posting. my christmas list will now look confusing as it will be a url to this thread!


Sadly I do think your panic is well founded. I will work on it more over the summer, but the chances of having something that I'd be comfortable distributing is pretty slim. Only time will tell. I do appreciate your excitement about it, and it does make me want to work towards an end goal a bit more. Cheers.
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Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [jmX] [ In reply to ]
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If you are not interested in making money from this (which I think you should be but everyone to their own) then what about opening it up to the ST community and opensource community as a whole and see if between us all we can make a really really great bit of software. I would donate to that and I am sure there are a lot of IT specialits on here that could help if they wanted to. Having seen the screen shots it pains me to think of using what I have at home again! I spend a lot of time on my trainer and so would really love to see something better out there. What about one of the software companies out there buying this up and then taking what looks already great and putting some man hours behind it (you are only 1 so there is a limit to how much time you can spend on this I guess).
Anyway, I really hope this goes further and well done for what you have already achieved. I am a programmer (not in fun stuff like that though, financial crap) and I never realised that 1 person could put something like this together...google here I come..."build bike trainer software" search coming up!

Cheers
Johan
UK

http://longwaytogo-ironman.blogspot.com/
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Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [jmX] [ In reply to ]
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jmX wrote:
orphius wrote:
I honestly could careless about pretty graphics or a video game mode. To me that is just gimmac to entice you to purchase. At the end of the day what the program needs to do is make you a better cyclist.


I'm not sure "gimmick" is what I'd call it, and at the moment there is nothing to purchase. Everything I wrote is because *I* wanted it, and I don't feel like I've wasted time on gimmicks. The whole point of the program is training. The program will show you your full workout timeline, tell you when to start what and how hard to go. It'll sound some alarms if you're not in the correct range (intervals can be based on HR, watts, or speed). At the end of the day, the whole point is to get me to do my workouts, and get me off the blasted trainer ASAP with the least amount of boredom.


The graphics just happen to be fancy because that is what I do for a living, and it not a big deal for me to put in a little effort to get something nicer looking. I'm guessing most people probably wont care about the graphics - all the computrainer owners are proof of this.


johanandbex wrote:
I want to buy this now. I dont care if it has bugs and crashes I still want it now. Can I beta test it too? I have used a number of programs to train with and all are pretty dull. I got so bored I now just sit on my trainer, put the software into fixed power mode and I use sufferfest vids to motivate me! what you have here looks awesome! Can I overtake other virtual riders depending on how fast I am going?

I feel a slight panic now that this is just going to fade into the background and never become a reality! make it a reality...please.
cheers for posting. my christmas list will now look confusing as it will be a url to this thread!


Sadly I do think your panic is well founded. I will work on it more over the summer, but the chances of having something that I'd be comfortable distributing is pretty slim. Only time will tell. I do appreciate your excitement about it, and it does make me want to work towards an end goal a bit more. Cheers.

Sorry about my choice of words. Your're right gimmack was the wrong word. I was just trying to make the point of what I would look for in purchasing trainer software, The software has to be functional and not just have pretty graphics. I certainly did not mean to insult your hard work in any way and I apologize if I did. The work you have done is very very good.
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Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [johanandbex] [ In reply to ]
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johanandbex wrote:
If you are not interested in making money from this (which I think you should be but everyone to their own) then what about opening it up to the ST community and opensource community as a whole and see if between us all we can make a really really great bit of software. I would donate to that and I am sure there are a lot of IT specialits on here that could help if they wanted to. Having seen the screen shots it pains me to think of using what I have at home again! I spend a lot of time on my trainer and so would really love to see something better out there. What about one of the software companies out there buying this up and then taking what looks already great and putting some man hours behind it (you are only 1 so there is a limit to how much time you can spend on this I guess).
Anyway, I really hope this goes further and well done for what you have already achieved. I am a programmer (not in fun stuff like that though, financial crap) and I never realised that 1 person could put something like this together...google here I come..."build bike trainer software" search coming up!

Cheers
Johan
UK

Software engineer here. I agree. I could volunteer time and provide help to improve the software.
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Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [orphious] [ In reply to ]
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Graphics are important. It helps in stimulating the brain. I'm sure that you rather be staring at a monitor with nice graphics relevant to the type of training you are doing than stare at an empty wall. Graphics sure add a fun factor and kills the boredom of training indoors.
Last edited by: Miguelon: Apr 20, 12 12:08
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Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [Miguelon] [ In reply to ]
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Not really. I am fine with watching the Interval Graphs and how much more of a particular interval I have left. Also, since I am using a CT, I don't need to pay attention to much so I can throw on a movie or watch TV. CT forces you to do the work.
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Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [orphious] [ In reply to ]
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More power to you man.
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Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [jmX] [ In reply to ]
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Mad props to you. I can't believe Garmin or another large company aren't all over this. If Computrainer sees this form, I would be concerned....it may beat the release of their new software that's been promised...
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Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [jenkinsbr] [ In reply to ]
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I'm surprised the op hasn't had an offer to buy the program from a major company.
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Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [tryguy67] [ In reply to ]
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They might be slow with development but it looks like bigger companies are starting to explore this market.


http://virtualtraining.cycleops.com/
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Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [OwenLisa] [ In reply to ]
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OwenLisa wrote:
They might be slow with development but it looks like bigger companies are starting to explore this market.


http://virtualtraining.cycleops.com/

bingo...

I said it

The entire event (IM) is like "death by 1000 cuts" and the best race is minimizing all those cuts and losing less blood than the other guy. - Dev
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Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [camaleon] [ In reply to ]
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I would definitely offer to help on this project. I could handle a lot of the server code and related multi-player code needed to link players in a multi-player game. I have some extensive experience in this area, feel free to reach out if you would be interested in having help on the project. This looks really great.

Also, it would be interesting to look into custom hardware to provide a feedback loop.
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Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [TriangleIL] [ In reply to ]
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TriangleIL wrote:
I would definitely offer to help on this project. I could handle a lot of the server code and related multi-player code needed to link players in a multi-player game. I have some extensive experience in this area, feel free to reach out if you would be interested in having help on the project. This looks really great.

Also, it would be interesting to look into custom hardware to provide a feedback loop.

The first version will be local host only, no online multiplayer. If it turns out people actually do want some 3d software to train on and it catches on, multiplayer will be added and I may shoot you a PM.

I do wonder what you mean by hardware to provide a feedback loop. Can you clarify?
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Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [jmX] [ In reply to ]
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Gotta say I love how this looks, if this project becomes available to the public I'll be all over it.
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Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [jmX] [ In reply to ]
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This may just be naivety on my part, as I don't currently - own - a trainer. I am actually just getting into this sport (coming from running only) and had stumbled across this thread and as a software developer myself found it very exciting.

Anyways, for hardware feedback, I was referring to increasing or decreasing the difficulty of the trainer based on the ascent/descent of the courses you are training on. I.e. if you ended up pulling topo maps from google, or found an interesting way to develop actual tri/IM courses into your application, adjusting the trainer automatically while going up a hill would be awesome.

Of course, there is already probably something out there that does this, so please excuse my ignorance if it exists already.

Good luck with the future programming, this is a very exciting project.
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Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [TriangleIL] [ In reply to ]
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TriangleIL wrote:
I was referring to increasing or decreasing the difficulty of the trainer based on the ascent/descent of the courses you are training on.

unless you have a computrainer that'd be hard to do... the only other way to simulate it that I can think of would be to interface with the electronic shifters and shift up/down automatically depending on course/workout, but that seems a bit hacky
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Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [Marco in BC] [ In reply to ]
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I was envisioning - the product could be stepped up to production scale and then an optional component would be a USB trainer, that would be controlled by the application to increase or decrease the resistance. Another interesting piece would be to display the current gear, but that would require something like Flight Deck I'm assuming? Sorry, just thinking out loud.
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Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [jmX] [ In reply to ]
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This is pretty amazing. TrainerRoad is cool but it does lack the visual stimulation. The steering is a cool idea as it is something else to concentrate on and take your mind off the pain but definitely not an important factor. Although if you somehow got a massive budget and developed worlds allowing you to steer down any street, off-road (mountain bike option), etc, in a world city that would be the greatest thing ever (slight exaggeration but you know what i mean). Like the ghost rider idea and like the online 'play'...whether as a bunch start/race or just passing people that happen to be on the same course/route. BTW, Elite had a basic-ish trainer (InOut) where there was electronic adjustment of the resistance (magnetic) that could definitely be controlled by something like this without spending the money for a high-end trainer unit. Could probably get money from bike companies as well for advertising and again, if you had a massive budget, you could replicate the handling characteristics of the different bikes like in the Gran Turismo games for cars, and in different weather conditions although this is completely unpractical for this market...would make steering more of a big deal and probably more relevant to cyclists and not triathletes (crit racing could be fun without the pain from crashes).

Anyway, good stuff.
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Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [jmX] [ In reply to ]
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jmX wrote:
packetloss wrote:
How does course customization work? Is it static graphics or randomly generated based on the incline/decline of the course?


There is no course customization. All I have planned at the moment are a set of tracks through different scenery types. Right now the track I'm using is a 5km curvy loop through a forest, and is 100% generated by the code based on some random numbers.

Just to make sure I'm understanding correctly. In theory, you could take a given GPS course and it would randomly generate the terrain for it. You wouldn't need to hand design and hand place the scenery for each and every course?

I guess incline/decline doesn't matter at the moment, but if you did add support for controllable trainers like the Computrainer, Powerbeam or Tacx, your engine could handle any assortment of such courses and you wouldn't have to hand design each one?
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Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [jmX] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
I would definitely offer to help on this project. I could handle a lot of the server code and related multi-player code needed to link players in a multi-player game. I have some extensive experience in this area, feel free to reach out if you would be interested in having help on the project. This looks really great. The first version will be local host only, no online multiplayer. If it turns out people actually do want some 3d software to train on and it catches on, multiplayer will be added and I may shoot you a PM.

This is great to see. I built something like this (non-3D) well over 2 years ago and I don't think people "got it". The responses here make me feel otherwise and now I am eager to get back into developing it. I also presented the idea to a few of the big digital fitness brands, and no official bites - yet it seems like they all have things of their own in the works now... I built mine to work with both Polar and ANT+, and am a member ANT+ developer. Placeholder site at www.BodyLinkSystems.com The videos are listed at vimeo.com/bodylinksystems and show linear transformations of real-time speed, power, cal, etc.. wrt multiplayer. Speed data controls video speed, etc.

I am really attracted to the online gaming aspect of it, and initially built mine to offset couch potato tendencies during football season. My background is in interactive/social TV, so I was envisioning it as a competitive freemium app that would run on all video platforms, either at home or at the gym (connectedTV, xbox). Right now, I use mine just about every day (mac only) and am looking forward to some sort of online "play". Ghost riders could take care of the asynchronous play bit, which is what makes mobile games like Words With Friends so popular. Definitely a step up from a "virtual partner". I have thought about the "cheating" aspect of it, and the best solution is social with a set of trusted "friends". The way I figure, If you are that much faster than me, you'd be more than happy to allow a speed enhancement just to make the training (game) more fun. Think modified golf handicaps here.

jmX and Triangle, Please feel free to reach out at info@bodylinksystems.com if you'd like testers and/or help with this. Would be happy to share and collaborate, and I've been looking to implement the multiplayer bit for a while. Even if it's just chasing a dot powered by a real person, in real time.
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Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [packetloss] [ In reply to ]
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packetloss wrote:

Just to make sure I'm understanding correctly. In theory, you could take a given GPS course and it would randomly generate the terrain for it. You wouldn't need to hand design and hand place the scenery for each and every course?

I guess incline/decline doesn't matter at the moment, but if you did add support for controllable trainers like the Computrainer, Powerbeam or Tacx, your engine could handle any assortment of such courses and you wouldn't have to hand design each one?

It takes a series of points and creates a smooth road based on those points, so I suppose a series of GPS based points could serve as the input. I've had somebody come forward offering to discuss how some computer controlled variable resistance trainers work so support for those could be added, however I do not have the budget for buying $1000 trainers at the moment - not to mention avoiding buying those is half the reason I started writing this thing.

I'll look into GPS inputs and see if anything neat falls out of that with minimal effort. I'm not sure the *shape* of the course really matters at all, but maybe I'll change my tune once I try it.
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Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [TriangleIL] [ In reply to ]
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TriangleIL wrote:
Another interesting piece would be to display the current gear, but that would require something like Flight Deck I'm assuming? Sorry, just thinking out loud.

The program does that now (I know cadence and I know wheel RPM...so the math is pretty simple from there) however it turns out to be nothing more than a party trick. I'm not sure if its useful in any way. Is there a reason you'd want that?
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Re: New 3D Trainer Program w/pics (ANT+, MAC/PC) [BodyLinkSystems] [ In reply to ]
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Magwister, thanks for the ideas. I do love gran turismo and it sure would be neat if you could improve your bike in the app and then go "feel" the differences, but alas, the only real benefit we normally get is a lighter wallet. I could play some wooshing sounds for those who are riding on deep rims ;)

BodyLinkSystems, got your email. I'll read through it and get back to you tonight or tomorrow. I like to hear from others that took the initiative to make something they wanted. I'm also interested in OSX video playback tech, right now my app only plays videos on the windows version, and even then I'm pretty disappointed with the minefield of codec issues and filtergraph headaches. Did you use FFMPEG?
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