You crack me up. I'm agreeing with you in regard to varying intensity and load. I'm agreeing with you that you don't go full balls year round.

I'll take one more crack at this and then I'm done wrestling with the pig.

Show me a study that shows that aerobic development is eroded by intense intervals. Just putting it out there that you can't find one.

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I have deceptive speed.........I'm slower than I look!

To the OP:

Periodization is based on periods of time and not types of workouts.

Periodization goes from General to Specific.

The General period has been given different names and different meanings by different people (ie: base, out season, off season, fall, winter, etc) but simply put, this is your General period.

To answer your question, the General period (what you call "base training") starts the day after your last triathlon of the year. Once again, different terms (ie: recovery, preparation, cross training, etc) are used to describe this initial period of time but it's simply your General period.

It may be that you start your General period (ie: "base training) by taking 2 weeks off after your last triathlon and then get right back at it or you may take 2 weeks off and then follow this up with an 8 week block of drinking beer and getting fat. No matter what option you choose, General ("base") starts the day after your last triathlon of the season.

The General period is to prepare you for your Specific period and as desert dude and Francois mentioned, periodization is not slow to fast.

To finish up, some thoughts on "base" as in, "I need to do a bunch of lsd to build my base". LSD workouts aren't stored in a separate container in your body and this container doesn't drain itself empty at the end of every September and then needs to be refilled again starting in October. Instead, imagine that you have a "fitness" container in your body and that all of your workouts regardless of duration and intensity are all stored in this one container. What you want to do is at the appropriate times of the year is fill it with the appropriate amounts and combinations of "fluids". If you do this on a consistent basis, the fitness container won't drain and if you keep slowly and carefully pouring in fluid in the right combinations, the container will magically increase in size so it can hold even more fitness.

The trash talk aside I actually find this thread quite interesting and has made be curious to the periodization concept and how to optimize training. After reading and thinking a bit this is what I'm getting to using my own words combined w what I read. Related to him and im training

recovery phase: a 1-3 week phase after A races where training is light and unstructured. The harder the race the less volume and frequency and the phase could maybe be 5 weeks depending on the individual athletes need for recovery

Preparation: for the experienced athlete this is about getting back to normal volume and for inexperienced its becoming used to the volume. Early in the phase it's almost all low intensity and low duration but during the phase duration, frequency and intensity is increased so volume and frequency gets normalized while intensity stays low although is present. Duration of phase depends on how quickly the athlete is ready to assume normal volume (next phase)

General phase: duration depends on when next A race is but is everywhere between 4 and 24 weeks. Volume is "normal" (let's say 15-20 hrs if next A race is ironman). Intensity is present but is not race specific. For example a long run might be 2 hrs at easy pace and intensity added through mile repeats a bit slower than race pace. A long bike might be 4-5 hrs mostly z2 and intensity achieved on what ever hills are encountered. My key point here is that this is not a long and slow phase. There is some intensity but it's not race specific. Its There will be vo2 max work, tempo runs etc

Transition to race specific: 8-10 weeks where volume is slightly lower than in the general phase if needed (to avoid overtraining) but intensity is increased. The intensity is becoming increasingly race like. For example a long run might now be 2-2,5 hrs and extended continuous periods close to race pace.

Race specific: 2-3 weeks where several workouts are race specific. Volume is lower than in previous phase achieved through reductiom in frequency but intensity is higher. Intensity achieved through race like workouts. For example the long run might now have last 30-40 pct at race pace and long ride might be 5 hrs with 2-3 hrs at race pace.

Taper: 2 weeks of 20-50 pct volume but intensity and frequency largely maintained

Is that correctly understood?

Any suggestions for good reading on the topic?

EDIT: regarding intensity in each phase: percent of volume done with intensity will difer by sport: swim swill be mostly intense while running will be mostly easy . However for all 3 sports the intensity will go from general to specifi for example in swim the general phase will probably have lots of speed and threshold work while race like sessions and intensity will come closer to race

I would suggest these two books: http://www.physfarm.com/store/

They're well written, easy to read and easy to understand.

The power book is great even if you don't have a power meter. It also has good swim and run stuff. Between the two, I think it even has the better chapter on periodization so I'd definitely recommend getting both.

For the love of God and everyone on this forum, just stop. Seriously, just stop. None of us want to know this thread as the last thread you posted in.

Needsmoreair, all any of want to see is one, just one, peer-reviewed article regarding the degradation of aerobic fitness through high-intensity training.

Thanks for the links, Francois.

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The question of who is right and who is wrong has seemed to me always too small to be worth a moment's thought, while the question of what is right and what is wrong has seemed all-important.

-Albert J. Nock

indeed. Thanks to Francois for sharing his knowledge.

These aren't particularly new results. I have seen some more recent but I forgot where I have put the links. I'll check from work tomorrow.

I am liking this thread thrash talk drama and some good valualbe stuff.
I would like to add that this time of the year is also good to improve and refine skills.

I think what one of the protagonists in this thread was trying to argue (before he lost his way) is that the people that do well in Kona are usually not at top of their game at the begining of the season and dont win too many races.

The italicized part of your post indicates that you have a very limited understanding of physiology and basic training concepts. Otherwise you wouldn't be asking that question. No one is denying that daily v02 intervals would take too large a toll on your body. They would. And to do them year round would come at the cost of missing out on building other systems. No one does the same thing day in/day out - and no one is this thread is arguing for that. So your question is pointless.

There is a benefit to mixing long endurance efforts, steady efforts, threshold efforts, progressive efforts, v02 efforts, etc etc into your training - and doing so year round. Training is about applying different stimuli and stress to your body - moving from general fitness to the specific demands of the race. You need multiple types of stimuli to maximize fitness. For example - a long ride/run is a stimulus of duration, and v02/threshold are stimuli of intensity.

Also the thing about intervals eroding aerobic fitness is patently false. Where did you come up with that? I suppose if you went from running 100 miles a week to running 10 miles a week and doing only sprints and no long runs, then yeah you'd be eroding your aerobic fitness. But it's not the intervals that's doing it, it's the lack of volume.

From the bulk of your posts, it seems like you've read an older Friel book and stopped your education there. You would do yourself a huge service by looking up the Physfarm books, anything you can find about Renato Canova's training methods, and the links/references already cited in this thread.

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Could you elaborate on what characteristics and examples of workouts the "build phase" and "race specific training" phase could have?

I understand and agree to the concept of going from general to specific and I have a good idea about what general is and is not (it is not long and slow, it is still a mix of training stimulis but it is just not race specific). I also have a good idea about what workouts could look like in the "race specific training" but I am not completely sure - and in between "general/base" phase and "race specific" training phase, let us call it build phase, I am not sure what specifically characterizes this phase and what type of workouts would be done.

Thanks

I'm using this thread to practice restraint ;-)

An example would be a marathon season plan.

Early in the season you would focus on vo2max intervals and speed work via track or hill repeats. Late in the season the focus would shift to 2x20min threshold runs and extending the amount of miles you can run at 90-93% of yourFTP.

Endurance training in a nutshell: moving from general to specific while gradually increasing the training load then reduce volume and maintain intensity to peak.

François Peronnet has a great book on marathon training, which I think has been translated in English.

I would argue that for triathlon training you can pick any training regimen that involves zones 2, 3, or 4, and as long as you hit the same average TSS per week it doesn't matter *much* how you break down the zones.

a billion hours in zone 2, or a few hours in zone 4, gonna end up *pretty close* to the same place.

Do what works for you psychologically, schedule wise, and what allows you to get your run training in.

*Tend towards race specific pace more often when getting close to race day.*

If doing longer zone 2 rides in the winter gives you a psychological break that you need, do it. If you are happy doing 2x20@ftp year after year and time crunched, do that. Both are gonna make you faster as long as you apply the basic principle of progressive overload.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
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Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

No, the italicized part is a rhetorical question. I guess we need a special font for that now, too?

Exactly, you don't do the same thing day in and day out, nor do you the same thing at various points of the year. That's sort of my point. Actually, that IS my point.

Where did I come up with that? I didn't. You know about Canova so I assume you're also familiar with other Letsrun posters of old like Tinman? The concept comes directly from him.

I have every post Canova has ever made as well as every file at this link. I've read through them all many times. I very much enjoy Canova.

https://2008olympictrialsakatommyleonard.shutterfly.com/filecabinet

I also have a bunch of stuff from Cabral and Kellogg and of course, Tinman.

I find this a bit vexing that some of you think I'm so ignorant about training and physiology despite my experience and the stuff I write in my posts. You'd do better to refute the message instead of simply saying the message is wrong and trying to denigrate my knowledge as a whole.

At some point I've got to accept that maybe I'm just not getting the message across well enough for others to understand. My fault. I guess I need to work on my communication skills some.

Anyway, I don't have such an article. Here's some posts from Tinman, however, a coach I trust and one who is fairly well known in run training. Maybe I'll find such an article later, but for now perhaps this example will suffice.

What do you mean I acknowledge it?

I stated it outright from the very beginning.

Sustained high intensity. Weeks/months of hard workouts and races. You do not improve. You stagnate. You maintain. However, if you keep pushing, you get worse. You are not adding to your base. You are not improving your fitness.

Instead of pushing through, you break, you rebuild, you enter another cycle.

I don't know what boat you're referring to, but is there any part of the above that you disagree with?

All I've said is that you can't read well and/or are ignorant and then I pointed out the parts of your posts that made me believe that. Then I agreed with your quip about your intelligence.

To continue in that theme and add to my examples of you not reading well, you're now asserting "you just can't tolerate some VO2 max work without some decent amount of base"?

I've never said that. Thanks for continuing the charade, however.

When everyone seems to misread what you write, I'd consider taking a deep breath, pondering a bit, and starting to wonder 'maybe I'm not expressing myself correctly'...
But I guess you have a way too high opinion of yourself to ever consider that maybe, that would be the case.

And we're all anxiously waiting for one single reference showing that continuing high intensity work will erode aerobic base...

As for intelligence, don't kid yourself...

You must have missed it above - its all about "lactic acid fatigue." Who needs a reference for something so obvious?

Shane

Since someone mentioned Canova, I'll throw out a selection of his posts from letsrun on prepping for a specific event (running: marathon) since I like his analogies and explanations. This doesn't include the initial 3-4 week introductory/transition stage that takes place as an athlete is coming back from a break/down time.

Francois, are you just taking the piss now?

Read up three posts from your reply.

Now that wasn't directed at you in any way, because you've said nothing of note to begin with. But wow, how bad are you at reading?

I keep pointing it out and providing examples and you just keep giving me more. And then you talk about intelligence.

Surely you're taking the piss. Surely.

No, no. Reading your posts once is painful enough already. You seem to be the pissed one here. It seems that no one really understands what you're saying.

On a side note, I'm quite amused that you called me irrelevant a few times, and keep answering my posts. So, I'm kind of having fun, trying to figure out how often you'll
answer to someone irrelevant.

And by the way, brilliant quote from Tinman...that's top notch exercise science.

No, no, taking the piss. Not being pissed. Nice.

Francois, let's just call a spade a spade. You don't read my posts. You skim my posts, decide what you would have me say, and then respond to that.

I keep pointing that out. I keep giving examples of you just making stuff up. Yet you just continue stating that I'm saying things I'm not saying. Thus proving the above.

Irrelevant to the discussion, which you have been. But don't sell yourself short on your entertainment value. You're having fun when I respond to you, and I'm laughing out loud at how often you just make something up and attribute it to me.

Like I said, you keep giving me more and more examples.