Speaking of tire performance, any idea why all the tests done at the below link showed lower rolling resistance at higher pressures, like 120 psi? I thought the new trend was that lower pressures like 90 psi were faster.

http://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/...d-prix-4000s-ii-2014

GP 4000S II for reasons stated above. Low rr, very well proven, available everywhere, very durable and i dont have the extra dollars to buy more expensive tires.

TG said something in another thread (i think the wetsuit one) about how people sometimes get caught uo in the "must have latest greatest" and abandon what works well for no good reason.

Show me a tire that is 5+w faster combined between aero and rr, and lasts two seasons of racing at the same price point, and I'll switch. Untill then? Why leave a good, proven thing?

It's because even after all of the new tires coming out, the Conti GP4000S is STILL a tough tire to beat when taking into account the total combination of aerodynamics (even if it was "accidental excellence"), rolling resistance, durability, availability AND price.

Yes, there are other tires that can give better performance in some of those categories, but they typically come with trade-offs in one or more of the others. It's up to the user to determine which of those categories mean the most to them and if they want to deal with, or mitigate the effects of the drawbacks. It's my experience though, that the VAST majority of cyclists and triathletes really don't want to think too much about it, and really are looking for "the answer". When a person like that asks me "what should I use?", it typically comes down to "it's tough to go wrong with a GP4000S with a latex tube inside".

Personally, I TT on 23C Conti Supersonics, and road race on Turbo Cottons. My TT tire choice is mostly because I'm less "flat averse" than the typical triathlete, and I want the best combo of Crr and aerodynamics for my personal race wheels. The road race choice is because I've found that the TCs are actually more durable than they are given credit for...and, life is too short to ride crappy riding tires :-) If the 23C SuperSonics didn't exist, I'd most likely TT on Turbo Cottons as well...although, it appears the SS tires just recently went through a re-working of their construction, so I might have to re-evaluate the newer models.

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

 I have used Conti clinchers and tubs for 20 years or so. Quality, durability, and price range make them a good choice. Not saying that other tires are bad. Just that I average a flat much less frequently with the Conti tires.

For me it's the Cont 4000s. I've used them both for my 700 wheels and my 650 wheels. Maybe it was marketing at first that got me started with them. After that I tend to not stray from what works for me for any of my equipment. I become loyal to whatever serves me well. And quite simply, the 4000s gets me tons of miles with very little trouble. I very well could be missing out on a better option. But why risk it?

Because that test setup doesn't include the "suspension losses", or what Josh Poertner termed "impedance" losses of an entire bike + rider system. It's ONLY measuring the effects of tire pressure on the tire alone, not the rest of the system. Josh explains that here:

https://silca.cc/...y-and-previous-works

https://silca.cc/...stance-and-impedance

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Also...don't forget that he tests clinchers with butyl tubes. Just keep that in mind when comparing to his tubeless results ;-)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

"Personally, I TT on 23C Conti Supersonics, and road race on Turbo Cottons."

i don't want anybody to misunderstand my question or point here. i agree with you that the 4000S II is a great value all things considered. i just question whether it's worth a 71 percent market share.

especially because the most knowledgeable tire person on the forum is not using that tire.

again, nothing against that tire. just, it's my guess that the issue is that the 4000S II came out in 2013, and at that time the tire was a world beater, and it gained a reputation during 2013, 2014, and that reputation has endured. but it's 2017 and the turbo cotton (as just one example) wasn't around or well known at that time, and the michelin power competition (as another example) didn't come out until 2016.

i don't think anybody who bought a 4000S II today could be faulted for doing so. but i don't think the facts support a 70 percent market share. (btw, i also much admire the turbo cotton, tho i find it quite a wide tire, and even the 24mm barely fits inside the chain stays of my c'dale supersix evo.)

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

 
GP4K's for me.

1. They get consistent good reviews for durability, rolling resistance, aero, etc.

2. They have served me very well. Went to a week long training camp in Cali with some friends, two worked at the LBS. They got all crazy on the newest, fastest, lightest, tires. Both of them went through 3 tires a piece and ended up on the equivalent of an armadillo tire for the last two days of the camp. I went with my old Conti's with 1,500 miles already on them and never had a single problem. I get 1-3 flats per year and it usually only happens when I wait too long to replace a tire.

Had some Zipp tires, they failed to impress. Didn't last long at all, weren't any faster, didn't ride any better and were much more expensive.

I keep an eye out and when I see the Conti's for $30 I buy a pair and hold on to them. I'm not going to pay double for a tire that might be 2-4 watts faster and isn't as proven.

Several models of Contis have proven through controlled third-party testing to be at or near the top of the clincher list in terms of rolling resistance and aerodynamics. The GP4ks is a great compromise between high performance and reliability with it's very good crr, very good aero properties, and Vectran puncture belt. You sacrifice a bit of crr for the puncture protection and slightly thicker tread. The Super Sonic is a slightly riskier option, although it's likely mostly theoretical - thinner tread and no puncture belt. Significantly better crr if you are willing to accept the additional risk. There is also the GP TT and Force/Attack in the mix and both use the fast rolling Black Chili compound. Pretty much something for everyone in the racing range from Conti.

Is it fair to compare a "relatively" everyman (hell they are *just* my training tires) gp4ksII to the Turbo Cotton, which is pretty much *just* a race tire? (I admit to not knowing much about the Michelin)

Personally, I'd say no

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My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com

So many choices out there. I would love to try a set of Turbo Cottons as everything I've read about them has been glowing. I'm just a bit concerned about their durability. Almost all of my rides take me onto a gravel section of road, and sometimes they're the focus of my ride. These are rides on my roadie (I know the survey was about try racing but now we're just talking tires...) and I have no interest swapping tires/wheels for a garden variety ride. I've had very good luck with my 4000S tires on unpaved roads, so again, still a no brainer. I'm lazy/apprehensive about giving a reasonably expensive tire a trial by fire like this and I suspect I'm not alone.

Inertia is powerful, I am not.

But, does your forum consist primarily of bike racers or of triathletes? What Tom wants from his tires is different (for 90% of my racing) than what I want from my tires.


I have ridden the SW TC for a bit on my regular road riding and like it quite a bit although it sustains cuts pretty easily. I don't really like Michelin although I couldn't tell you why; maybe it's because all of their tires seem difficult to install and LBS' margin on them (usually ordered through QBP/Hawley) isn't very good but I almost never used those. The Specialized lineup is really really good but sometimes the supply line spigot runs out; there have been long, long periods where the TC was essentially unavailable.

Oh, and screw the notion of race vs training tires... I want the fastest/most comfortable tires that I can live with (cost and flats) on all my bikes at all times.

I thought the poll showed 71% used Conti, not necessarily the GP4ks specifically. Tom still TTs on Conti tires and I know there are a handful of others here that are partial to the SS as well - still Conti.

Ran GP4000s from 2011-2015. Switched to turbo cottons (for racing) in 2016. At $80 a tire, it was hard to swallow. I plan to run Conti SS 23mm in 2017.

My training tires though since 2011..... GP4000s. Fast yet durable.

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blog

I think you should do a follow-up poll. "Ok Conti Users - which front tire are you using to race on" - GP4000SII, GP4000S, Supersonic, GP TT, Attack, Force. I say front because it could get to mismatched with front / rear. Maybe you could do two pools and do rear as well.

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I spent a lot of time researching tires about 4 years ago, and I think back then the Contis were up near the top of most lists, so I bought them. I haven't switched yet because I haven't kept up with the latest and greatest, so I didn't realise they have been outpaced by other tires.

On that note, where do I find the latest rankings - aero and Crr? Is there a thread or doc floating around on this lately?

Attack/Force, because of what I'd read on this forum about rolling resistance, overall performance etc.

I bet a big part of it is availability. The 4000SII can be had in any LBS or mail order bike shop in the US. Michelin's, Turbo Cotton's, even Vittoria's, and especially Supersonics, you have to do a little looking around. So serious bike nerds like TG, TomA, jeffp etc (and myself) go with Supersonics or Turbo Cottons, but most people end up with GP4000s.

As an aside, I've tried the Michelin's and they roll great and last a long time. I also love Vittoria's, but haven't tried the graphene ones yet. I would road race on either of those, as well as Turbo Cottons. I use a GPSS front and Turbo Cotton rear for TT racing (including the odd Tri). These are all great options. I personally don't like GP4000s.

Well...as I pointed out, I personally don't TT on the GP4K, but I'm still racing on Contis. So, as has been pointed out, the "depth of range" of the Conti line grouped near the top of the performance aspects probably contributes a great deal to that large percentage you see.


You need to either run a slightly narrower internal-width rim, or get a new frame :-) Seriously though, I find they run pretty true to size, when mounted on a "normal" width rim (i.e. Mavic Open Pro).

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

I would argue the TC isn't *just* a race tire...they're actually quite durable. I typically get >3K miles on the rear before it needs to be replaced, and I actually ran TCs in the Belgian Waffle Ride last spring with no issues from them.

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ted%20tough#p5927348

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

See post 47 above :-)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

I won't argue with you on their durability (my own TC's are pretty durable I thought, although my own use is pretty much crits and a couple of TT's.) but despite that, I'd guess that your average person buying Turbo Cotton's isn't using them for Sunday coffee shop rides, at least nowhere near the same extent that the Conti's are used.

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My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com

I had a sneaking suspicion that we'd be seeing those pics again...