"i'd say that a "typical" swim split for a 5:12/3:33 bike/run would be an hour flat, maybe 58-ish. certainly not 1:08! "

Does that work the other way around? If I have a 58 swim already, does that mean i should be able to bike 5:12 and run 3:33? :-) !!!!!!

I agree. The swim gods like to bash TI, but for people swimming over an hour despite hard work in the pool, TI will get them there.

Another little-known resource from which I re-learned to swim as an adult: the video from multisports.com. 2 masters workouts a week and I went 27:11 in my first half and 1:00 in my first IM. I just went to the pool and tried to do exactly what was in the video. I had my wife watch it with me and then go to the pool and give me feedback.

I know it does work.

I do want to get faster, doesn't everyone? I try to focus on my technique while I'm swimming the sets, I just don't like doing drills.

---

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

[reply] I cant run or bike worth a lick though. hehe[/reply]

Wow, that's one of the most completely wrong statements I've ever heard on ST!!!

No needless self-deprecation!!

-C

---

------------------------------------------------------------
Any run that doesn't include pooping in someone's front yard is a win.

Hehe... until I feel like i am reaching my potential i will continue my self depracating and masocistic ways. :-)

Based on the base training and my new training knowledge (Dr. C, etc.) I hope Ralph's is a glimpse of things to come.

---

36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App

Dude, I know. Stop giving me shit, OK? I'll pick up the swimming closer to my "A" race, Ok?

Hey, you comin' to Ralphs? Me too! We'll have to meet up. I thought you had said you were heading to St. Croix? What's on the calendar for 2006?

-C

---

------------------------------------------------------------
Any run that doesn't include pooping in someone's front yard is a win.

Greg X

Do you have any suggestions. videos, books, coaches? For swimming

Bob
Just read your post on TI.

---

Train safe & smart
Bob

Ralph's it is!

Fahget about St. Croix... i know it's got a slot but geez... the cost. $$$$$ I'd be game if it werent so steep... and i'm not refering to the beast.

As for the schedule... dont know... the only thing i think about day to day at this point is Ralph's. Everything is focused on that... I'll re-evaluate after a two week break following it. I am hoping to only be needing a 6.5 month program at that point. ;-)

---

36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App

[reply]Ralph's it is!

I'll re-evaluate after a two week break following it. I am hoping to only be needing a 6.5 month program at that point. ;-)[/reply]

No sweat! It's all you. Although I wish you hadn't aged into my AG last year... I'm hoping that at Ralph's I can buy a slot to AZ. I love doing IMs so much, waiting until next summer to hopefully run without stomach cramps is too long!!

-C

---

------------------------------------------------------------
Any run that doesn't include pooping in someone's front yard is a win.

Who invented the wetsuit???

---

�The greater danger for most of us is not that our aim is too high and we miss it, but that it is too low and we reach it.� -Michelangelo

MoodBoost Drink : Mood Support + Energy.

Who invented the wetsuit.

It's up for debate. Bob Meistrell, Jack O'Neill, or Hugh Bradner. Good artical in the LA times 10/11/05 Outdoors section."Surfing whodunit".

We all know who developed the first Tri specific wetsuit.

Bob

---

Train safe & smart
Bob

"We all know who developed the first Tri specific wetsuit."

forgot to add swim/tri specific wetsuit :) wetsuits are a big reason why most triathletes can't swim.

---

�The greater danger for most of us is not that our aim is too high and we miss it, but that it is too low and we reach it.� -Michelangelo

MoodBoost Drink : Mood Support + Energy.

I love them. Improves my swim time.

Bob

---

Train safe & smart
Bob

Dan,

Indeed, the swim times seem really slow these days. I have noticed that "rush hour" at the big IM races has been getting slower and slower. It used to be right around an hour, years ago when the race fields were smaller. I know, because swimming 58 back then put me in the middle of it. Now, Rush Hour at a race like IMC is 1:30!! Yikes!

I agree with you that some of these people should be able to swim 1:00 or faster. I was a terrible swimmer, but managed to get down to 57. Although, I will admit that I depended heavily on the wetsuit and drafted like a maniac to swim that fast.

I still think that the run is where many can really improve, because NO ONE is running "fast" in an IM. Even a slight increase in running pace over the entire marathon will yield HUGE gaines in place and time performance.

A case can be made that triathletes can't run either. I jumped in a race last summer on almost no training( a bit of biking but zero running and swimming) Here's how it went: I was blown away on the swim( as expected) and the bike( a bit suprised by that), but was running past all kinds of people on the run and actually ran into a decent place overall! How can that be? What kinds of run training are all these people doing, that someone who barely runs a step, can just run right by them. Strange.

Here's my theory on this: Many people get into the sport. They seek out a trainer or a coach and because of a hectic work schedule they get these nice little balanced spreadsheet training schedules with 2 workouts/week per sport. That's great to get going and get your feet wet, but it's NOT going to take you anywhere because there is NOT enough overload in any of the single sports to really take things to the next level. That's why I would advocate rotating single sport focusess for 4 - 6 months for the newbies at some point, if they are serious about taking performance to the next level. Audacious, I know, but it works!

Fleck

---

---

Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I think what Dan is getting at is that there should be a bit more balance to the splits and I would tend to agree whith him that if some one is having a bike run combo in the 5:20/3:30 range that they "should" be swimming close to 1:00.

Fleck

---

---

Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Jeez Dan, I'm trying...

Marisol is the perfect example. If she can swim 58:00, why can't she do 10:00:00? Here's why. Take some big tri race results and for each one make four lists: the top 10 overall finishers (or the top 10%), the top 10 fastest swimmers, the top 10 fastest cyclists, and the top 10 fastest runners. Do enough of these, and I predict a trend will start to emerge: The overall list and the swimming list will resemble each other the least, for reasons I've already (over)stated. Now here's a fun one, but it would be hard to assemble the data: Track the sport-specific improvement of a large number of people over time, using the same four lists. I would guess that the greatest swimming improvement list would least resemble the greatest overall improvement list. I concede I'm guessing here, because I haven't done the research. It's just an exercise in logic, and as is often said in engineering, "One good experiment is worth more than a thousand expert opinions." But the Kona elite AG stats are a good start toward instructing the rest of us. Let the data speak. The data seem to be saying that the route to superior performance, as evidenced by the folks who turned in these stellar performances and are arguably very successful at this sport, passes through swimming more briefly than through the other disciplines.

That's exactly what I've been saying. Just looking at the Kona results says the route to Kona is NOT by way of water, it's over land!!

Slowman's analysis proves the point. So a word to the wise, if you want big improvements, work on your bike and run. When you get those improvements THEN work on your swim to get that LITTLE bit extra.

Monty, you know my swimming ability. You need any help teaching the girls how to swim? (wink, wink, nudge, nudge)

---

Proud member of FISHTWITCH: doing a bit more than fish exercise now.

"if you want big improvements, work on your bike and run. When you get those improvements THEN work on your swim to get that LITTLE bit extra."

i'd say that pretty well describes my view.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Well now after all that verbal swordfighting, we finally agree on something. It took 1290 views to come to that conclusion.

Merry Xmas!! Hope your present is swim fins and hand paddles.

"Well now after all that verbal swordfighting, we finally agree on something."

you could have saved 1290 views and all that swordfighting by just stipulating to my original statement ;-)

if you take the mean time of the top 25% of males and you compare their times MINUS the swim with that of the average time of the top-10 pro males, you'll get a ratio that you can apply to the AGers swim times to predict what the pro men SHOULD be swimming (if they were as smart as some of the math wizards on this forum).

i would GUESS that if you did this math, then the pro males SHOULD be swimming about an hour flat. i think some of you smarty-pantses should explain to the pro men how badly they're apportioning their training time. i would guess they averaged about 52:30 or so, and the training it took to get that extra 7:30 of swim speed would be SO MUCH BETTER spent on bringing the bike split from 4:30 down to 4:10. right?

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

OK, don't instigate more swordfighting, I said my piece and stick to it. If anyone wants to read my responses, they certainly make more sense then Slowman's.

except if you race olympic distance. then the swim makes a very big difference.

years ago i read an excellent article about the leg lengths in olympic distance triathlons. the article explained how remarkably "balanced" the race distances were. i thought that was a strange premise, given that if you are a fast triathlete then the swim takes 20 min., the run 40 min., and the bike 60 min., and that didn't seem balanced to me. i thought a 'balanced' race would be one where you swim for 60 min., bike for 60 min., and then run for 60 min., or something similar.

but what the article showed was that if one does an analysis (for a good sized olympic distance tri) of the average total times and all the average split times of, say, the 1 to 20 male finishers and then the top 101 to 120 male finishers and so on, an interesting trend reveals itself:

the split averages of the 'slower group' are slower than the split averages of the 'faster group' by about the same time for each sport.

so, that meant that if the slower group took 25 min. (vs. 20 min.) to complete the swim, then they also took 65 min. (vs. 60 min.) to complete the bike, and took 45 min. (vs. 40 min.) to complete the run. so the 'slower group' took 5 min. more in each sport. and this trend continued to hold if the same analysis was done with times and splits of the 201st-220th finishers, the 301st-220th finishers, and so on.

i found that very surprising. and it proved to me that you have to be damn good in ALL THREE sports to really do well in olympic distance triathlon.



anybody else familiar with this article? where did i read it?

---

---

Where would you want to swim ?