"finding that the fastest performers are relatively weak in swimming is absolutely to be expected"

sure. you're right, but you're also now off-topic. if you're asking me who is going to end up being the best IM athlete, yes, it's that person exhibiting the best running skill. and yes, he's going to learn how to bike well before he learns how to swim well.

but at the sharp end of the field, if you want improvement, that's the action item of the thread i started. if it's more convenient i'll start another thread and make that more clear, and you guys can continue and discuss what sort of athlete has inate skills required to make a good IM competitor.

but those inate skills are not mutually exclusive with becoming a good swimmer. if you were born with no arms below the elbows, but with a VO2Max of 85 then, yes, your point and mine might intersect. otherwise, the more competitive IM racing gets the harder it is to find bad swimmers doing well. i think if you take the top-25% AG men's mean time and bring that all down to the pro podium guys'
times, that's about a 56min swim for faris, macca, etc. as an average. find me that list of people on the men's podium (top 10) who swam that slow.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

"Getting videotaped was very eye opening"

big big big. looking at what you do, then comparing that with what GOOD people do, then trying to imitate that (above and below the water), looking at it again, that's huge.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Do you boys have a video camera? Maybe we can do some taping in March?

clm

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

[reply]It's simple, humans are land animals!! Fish never made it to the top of the food chain.[/reply]

Tell that to the White Shark when he swims up next you.

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I think I read you on this. The swim at IM distance takes more out of me than the bike I think.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

and who do you think kills the white shark???

Do you boys have a video camera? Maybe we can do some taping in March?



Oh ya, we're gonna do some video taping all right.. We've got an army of St'ers out there that are depending on us.....

Heh. I would pay you a shockingly sizable sum of dosh to do that if I lived reasonably close. Hey, I may be in San Clemente mid-'06. Is that close enough? ;-)

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**************
Too f@ckin depressed from various injuries to care about having a signature line.

Sponsored by Blue Shield PPO.

Monty honey, I KNEW one of the two of you would say that the minute I typed it. You and Dan are too predictable. Love ya.

clm

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

Ash, I mean this is in the nicest way... you are insane! That's a ~1:25 pace. You'd have to have some amazing mysto form to go that pace with little aerobic power.

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**************
Too f@ckin depressed from various injuries to care about having a signature line.

Sponsored by Blue Shield PPO.

[reply]and who do you think kills the white shark???[/reply]

Not me when I am racing.

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well it may, but then why do you race? do you want to win? do you want to race to your true potential? does triathlon then frustrate you? because triathlon as a whole is an EXTREMELY technique based sport.

do you want race fast? because without perfecting your swim technique, there is simply no way that you will be able to swim fast. and getting huge improvements in the water can be done if you apply your brainpower and have the guts to listen to and sift through input from others.

it really does work. i originally came from a x-c running background and went from being a middle to back of the pack swimmer to now an off the front of the pack swimmer based on big and consistent changes in swim technigue. and to this day, i do not swim a single set without continuously and constantly concentrating on improving my technique.

and i have seen similar changes in other triathletes i have coached, so it works for many people, not just one.

never stop learning...

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Where would you want to swim ?

it's extremely clear that people arent spending enough time in the water.

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"The aspect of sport that you learn is that you have your good times and your bad times, but you share it with great people." - George Gregan

wow, you are saying that swimming a just over 4,000 yds. is harder than biking 112 miles ????

if it were a choice for me (and i like riding a lot) as to which one is easier, i'd be jumping in the water.

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Where would you want to swim ?

Proud to be one of your outliers... 2nd fastest swim and fastest amateur T1 at Kona last year :-) I cant run or bike worth a lick though. hehe

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36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App

No, he's saying that the way he swims makes it harder on him than the way he rides 112. I'm sure he could easily make the 112 a LOT harder than the swim. :-)

Even as the crap swimmer I am, 4200y is waaaaaaaaaaay easier than 112 race pace miles.

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**************
Too f@ckin depressed from various injuries to care about having a signature line.

Sponsored by Blue Shield PPO.

  What you say makes no sense. Do you think the cream of the crop wouldn't be working more on their swim if they could get that kind of improvement. The killers know they have to bike fast and run fast. The time differences in the water are so small at that end.
You say better/technique where I say Yardage. It all means time away from the longer sports, bike and running.
I am not an expert but what you say sounds like baloney.

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Jimmy S.

Might be interesting to compare those same Kona top 25% AGers' swims to an IM swim where wetsuits were legal and those same folks were wearin' 'em.

Salt water buoyancy not withstanding, swell and chop and tide too, a lake swim vs. Kona might speak more to lack of comfort with a skins saltwater swim vs. fresh with a wetsuit. For those same AGers I mean.

Rough water training might be a way to shortcut the total number of hours and yards a pool regime might require. Mebbe?

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Mr. Uncaptured External Costs

Fossil carbon is planetary poison.

No, not at all. Quite the contrary, I'm talking about learned skills, drills and technique. Nowhere did I mention innate ability, or bodily deformities. I'm talking about improvement as a result of practice and technique, and how to assess where to put the next increment of effort, as are you. I don't disagree that most of us could stand to improve our swimming. I also don't disagree that the AG Kona elite are relatively poor at swimming compared to their biking and running. I'm just saying I'm not surprised, given the lengths of the distances.

Now if I had known that in this thread I'd get to choose my innate ability, I'd have signed up for all three!

Dan

I have been reading the posts. It is obvious that improved technique=better time. Does swim technique change with a wetsuit.

Bob

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Train safe & smart
Bob

A good friend of mine is the mean in your group. He went just under 10 hours in Kona this year and swam a 1:10, biked 5:14 and ran 3:25. I know him from swimming with our masters group and I would estimate that he swims 5 times a week averaging close to 20,000 yards a week. I have tried to work on his stroke and I honestly don't think he can get much faster in the water. He cannot point his toes, no matter what he does. You put fins on the guy and he could go 50 minutes, without fins, almost backwards. However based on his speed in the water, he should be able to go about 1 hour. I think he just doesn't have a strength of positioning in the water to battle the crowds and always gets really abused during swim starts.



In short, I don't think he could spend any more time training in the water and only racing will make him have a better swim time.

I don't disagree with Dan's contention but I do think using Kona as the source of data could paint a more dire picture than reality. I swam 1:16 at Kona and 1:04 at New Zealand (still sucks but 12 minutes less sucky). Using Kona 2005 would make it even more misleading (slow swim conditions, vey fast bike conditions). I think Kona 2004 would look quite different.

Also, I am not convinced that adult learners have found a strong correlation between time spent in the water and their IM swim time. I haven't. I am on a 2-year plateau but now working with a coach who I think I can trust to clean up my stroke. However, I am extremely frustrated and find it hard to believe I will be able to swim well one day. We'll see.

(To be honest, I think thee is a dearth of eally skilled swim coaches who can help adults learn. It sounds like an excuse but swimming is the discipline that requires the most outside assistance).

Cheers

Vernon

you are amazingly accurate in this observation.

i have also found the same thing over my 20 year span of swimming and triathlon racing. many swim coaches have helped me in my swimming, but about 95% of the time they helped me because of my persistance, not theirs. and having a coach who learned how to swim fast before age 10 is generally far less useful than having a technique coach who learned to swim fast later in life, and who had to actually think about every technique change he/she made. coaches with those backgrounds and who can communicate well are very rare indeed.

and related to the communication element, i am still stunned at the no. of so-called "coaches" (usually online coaches) who have absolutely zero skills in this department. why people pay voluntarily pay them money is still a mystery to me. sadly, it doesn't speak too highly of the 'coaches' or their athletes.

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Where would you want to swim ?

As it's been said triathlon is a technique based sport - so true, but the swim is far more dependent upon technique than the bike/run. That being said - let's not dis Total Immersion. It's a wonderful progression that prioritizes efficiency via technique. Took me from a non swimmer at age 29 years of age to a :55 IM swim (Austria) just 2 years later.

Ian

Ian Murray
ACMEcoaching.com

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Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

total immersion is very very useful.

nothing is 100% the answer, but TI is on to A LOT of the secrets of fast swimming. you don't even need to take a clinic, as the book and (freestyle) videos give you 90% of the TI approach. and i found copies of both at the local library....

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Where would you want to swim ?