[reply]Monty, you know my swimming ability. You need any help teaching the girls how to swim? (wink, wink, nudge, nudge)[/reply]

Please submit a full body photograph (shirtless) and the organizing committee will get back to you. Thank you for your interest.

I agree with you there. For an Olympic distance race, the swim is more important than in an IM. If you just extrapolate the distance based on the Olympic s/b/r, IM would look something like this if you kept the bike at 180km:

Swim: 6750m
Bike: 180km
Run: 45km

and based on the fastest s/b/r times for each event, the times would look like this:

Swim: 3hr's 31min (based on 47min fastest IM time)
Bike: remains the same
Run: 2hrs 51min 26sec (based on 2:40 fastest IM time)

So now the fastest IM time would be on the order of:
10hr's 45 min

So you can see the influence the swim would have if it was scaled up from the Olympic distance race.
But of course it isn't, so that's why I make the point, the swim is not so imortant in IM races.

does slowmman have this forum so his head can grow? just curious, cuz everyone seems to kiss his ass and think he is god or something...maybe slowman should be banned from his forum?? thanks for reading. sam

Cathy,

I don't like you, not one little bit, but that's a really impressive swim improvement! Congrats!!

To what do attribute your success? Drills, technique, yardage, other, or some combination?

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Lewis

you obviously haven't read many of my posts...

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Where would you want to swim ?

Dan,

I know you're not my coach and sorry if the info is already out and buried in this thread or somewhere else on the site, but what sort of training/drills/yardage/whatever do you recommend to get someone those "free" 10-15 minutes?

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Lewis

i think one of the most interesting race distances would be 3 x olympic:

so, 3 mile swim / 75 mile bike / 18 mile run (or metric equivalents: 4500 m / 120 km / 30 km).

this would be a long distance race, but not nearly as brutal or depleting as a full IM distance. and people would race way faster, and could race a few more times in a season.

and still stay out of the medical tents.

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Where would you want to swim ?

"what sort of training/drills/yardage/whatever do you recommend"

swimming 1hr flat in kona is not hard to achieve. 10k per week in the pool, with peak weeks once every 2 mo. or so, if 16k to 20k, that's enough yardage.

whether it's drills or feedback, the emphasis is on swimming correctly: body position; hand position at the catch; forming a proper pulling surface after the catch; completing the stroke underwater; not jackknifing at the waist while taking a breath; properly integrating one's kick and one's pull; stuff like that.

then there are land-based workouts that both strengthen one's arms for proper pulling, and also help establish motor pathways.

i don't think everyone needs to swim the same way. i swim with a 4-beat kick. others swim with a 2-beat or 6-beat kick. i don't care. but there are certain things that good swimmers do in concert. they're not hard to achieve compared to what it takes to lower an already highly optimized 5hr kona bike ride to 4:45 or 4:50.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Agree, and the run is what kills your legs in an IM. I could swim or bike those distances everyday if I had to, but to run a marathon every day would be brutal. In order of damage to the body, swimming is the least, then cycling and way back in last place is running. That's why as someone else posted, it's a good idea to do some of your recovery runs as deep water running.

Maybe they should think about those distances rather than the present IM distances. You certainly would get more participation and individuals could do many of them in one year.

I've always said, running is not a life long sport. Too much damage, most people drop out of it due to injuries.

This is a great article, by Joel Filliol (czone) on the "three key" components of building swimming speed:

http://triathletemag.com/story.cfm?story_id=11525&publicationID=92&pageID=1705

It is a great article. I am biased because he is my coach. But I can tell you we are doing a lot of this right now to work on my swimming, and it is really helping.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

no doubt that wetsuits make you swim faster. But for many AG triathletes it is an excuse to train less in the pool. Many triathletes would change their training and direct more time to be spent in the pool would all races consist of non-wetsuit swims. Don't get me wrong, I love wetsuits, especially because they keep me warm. But coming from a swimming background, it is pathetic at what level most AG triathletes swim compared to their relative performances during the bike and run.

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�The greater danger for most of us is not that our aim is too high and we miss it, but that it is too low and we reach it.� -Michelangelo

MoodBoost Drink : Mood Support + Energy.

Damn... well there goes that idea!
The only time I had abs that showed (besides high school) was the day after IMFL. Then, the layer came back (sigh!)

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Proud member of FISHTWITCH: doing a bit more than fish exercise now.

I think you should check your predicted swim time again.

Should be 1hr 24min.

"this would be a long distance race, but not nearly as brutal or depleting as a full IM distance. and people would race way faster, and could race a few more times in a season."

I always have to laugh when people think a shorter distance means less brutal. Did you ever race an Olympic distance ALL OUT? Along those lines I also think it is funny when people race an Olympic Tri one week end and onther race the next. Clearly they didn't give it their best.

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�The greater danger for most of us is not that our aim is too high and we miss it, but that it is too low and we reach it.� -Michelangelo

MoodBoost Drink : Mood Support + Energy.

I think Slowman just gave us all a New Year's resolution for 2006.... :-)

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"God does not play dice with the universe." - Albert Einstein

Dan,

I couldn't agree with you more.

I just did a 1/2 IM on the weekend. 2 years ago I did a 29 min swim and this year I did 33min in the freezing cold water. I was amazed how many bikes were still in the bike racks.

In the next 30 minutes several hundred guys that swim like crap passed me on the bike. Even 2 hours into my ride some pretty fast guys on fancy bikes with carbon everything were still flyin' past me. Why don't these guys learn how to swim? It's gotta be the easiest way to save 10, 15 or in some cases as much as 20 minutes in an IM race!

As you mention Dan, even if you don't swim until you are 30 (I started at 33, barely able to complete 2 lengths of a 25 yard pool) you can learn to swim well. I just turned 45 and managed a PB in the 1/2, so I'm living proof that you can continue to get better at swimming and also get faster and faster with age. (through good coaching, sticking to the plan during training etc, I managed to take 21 min off my run split PB! (yes I really sucked at running before as my time still isn't very good, but it does give me hope). Even with my advancing years I managed 1:02 for IMNZ swim last time and I'm hoping to chop off those 2 minutes in March.

Come on boys and girls, time to hit the pool (especially for you northern hemisphere duuuuudes). You've got all winter to get in some hot laps.

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TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

Actually, I swam :58 at IMWI this year on basically exactly that (one Masters session and one solo session). A month out from the race I increased the frequency.

I wasn't anywhere near the pointy end, with a 1100th+ bike finish, but I ended up in the top 700 overall on a not too strong run (where did the 400 people with faster bike splits go?). Getting out of the water early (with no significant energy expended) put me well ahead of all the packs, and then I just cruised along at my own reasonable pace.

Clearly I need to focus on my bike/run, but I think a lot of those ~5:30 riders need to work on their swim. If only just to get out on the bike ahead of the masses.

[reply]
Clearly I need to focus on my bike/run, but I think a lot of those ~5:00 riders need to work on their swim. if only just to get out of the bike ahead of the masses.[/reply]

I agree 100% with you but it will never happen---how would they justify their drafting for the first 30 mies of the race if they actually came out ahead of the masses.

I'm willing to volunteer for this challenge! What I mean is - this sounds like we could conduct a solid ST experiment: take two similar ability swimmers over a set period of time, give them a weekly swim training limit/range (measured by time), but then let one person swim sets on their own, and give the other swimmer a dedicated technique coach. At the end of five or six months, re-test them both to see how their swim times have or have not changed. This would be relatively easy to do and would be fairly interesting...

Mito Chondria

This thread has brought a really good exchange of ideas. Your point is well taken. I don't come from a swimming,(except surfing) background . My swim times are slow 25-27min.(Oly dis.) I could swim a little faster but tend to hold back. I finish in the top 1/3 in the swim in most races I enter.(AG 53) But the top guys are much faster. I fall into the 2x a week per sport training that some one posted.(maybe one extra run or swim a week). I hope to Improve in all 3 sports. Just finished 2 season of Tri's.

I also love the warmth of the wetsuit

Bob

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Train safe & smart
Bob

I swim in the steep position.

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_________________________________
I'll be what I am
A solitary man

Interesting concepts, especially as I plan a return to triathlon that I left in part due to frustration over a mediocre swim. I guess the best way to think about it is that technique is more permanent than fitness. I wonder if you spent a year really focusing on swimming you could carry the extra speed through the next season without needing to put in the same yards.

My wife is a former college swimmer and even with poor aerobic fitness and a recurrently dislocating shoulder she could always beat my butt quite easily in the pool.

you are a funny guy.

study some physiology.

or race for 20 years.

then get back to me.

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Where would you want to swim ?

While I think the run is where people either rise up and conquer, or fade out and die, I do believe in the importance of spending time learning swim technique.

I think what some people are missing is that if you spend time now learning the correct technique for swimming, that will pay off not just this season, but the next (without additional hours, because you are developing technique not maintaining fitness) and the next and the next, and for the rest of your triathlon career! You cannot say that about extra hours spent grinding away on the bike and the run.