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Re: USADA/Lance Armstrong File Official Thread [pick6] [ In reply to ]
 
My biggest issue with a lot of this is the Cancer-Shield.

Again, this is why I consider Lance a despicable person, and to me, he is really no different than the gangster being chased down by cops and holds a baby in between him and the cops from getting shot.

While many will point to the amount of money that has been raised, I really see a ton of the money that has been siphoned to protect the image and the lie. As well, I am fully convinced if instead of stoking his ego by doped-supported competitions and results he had dedicated that time to the foundation, not only could more money have been raised, less would have been spent protecting a lie
 
Re: USADA/Lance Armstrong File Official Thread [--] [ In reply to ]
 
It depends on a host of factors, but I understand your point. The problem with your point is that the PED culture has shown an ability to advance at a faster rate than the testing. If a doctor says I can give you something that isn't banned YET and which is unknown outside my labs will the kid take it? Almost any kid at that level would consider it. We've already shown that nihilism is rampant in America.

-Robert

"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank
 
Re: USADA/Lance Armstrong File Official Thread [Maui5150] [ In reply to ]
 
People who CHOOSE to be blind will never see because they refuse to.


I met a guy a short while ago who read up on all the affidavits, is familiar with the e-mails, payments to Ferrari, eye-witness testimonials from 11 riders including Hincapie etc., and his only comment was, "but Lance never failed a drug test so he must be innocent."

There are simply no arguments against that kind of stupidity.
 
Re: USADA/Lance Armstrong File Official Thread [Maui5150] [ In reply to ]
 
I can't say it enough... I believe the guy doped in my heart..

However.. until someone shows me undisputable evidence, I just can't convict the guy.. I need that "without a doubt" feeling.

I hope more comes out today with scientific evidence

I hope I missing a huge section of this report..

I just want closure.. I think we all do... and for me right now that 00.01% is really bugging me.

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COROS Sports Science

 
Re: USADA/Lance Armstrong File Official Thread [Robert] [ In reply to ]
 
Robert wrote:
I'm not sure one can draw a straight line, or a crooked one, between one man's alleged drug use and kids' drug use. I just don't hear kids saying "You know, I want to be just like Lyle Alzado, Vince McMahon and Barry Bonds." Young males are programmed for domination to spread their seed, and drugs are one means to that end; some are simply attracted to the fame and money. The WAR ON DRUGS, at all levels, has been a disaster. This case is a small sliver of the overall drug problem, which wil not go away with high profile prosecutions of drug users. In fact, the prosecution of Lance Armstrong is more likely to make kids think they need to get some steroids and EPO to become great too. Never understimate the value of unintended consequences. And this is one reason the WAR ON DRUGS has been a colossal failure on all fronts.

George Hincapie protected his financial future by throwing Armstrong under the bus. All those guys who got a six month slap on the wrist gave statements implicating LA primarily so they could protect themselves. None of those statements were given for honorable reasons or to elevate cycling. They never are. Why would anyone give them the time of day? They are not only drug cheats, but self-absorbed nihilistic opportunists. I thought Hincapie was better than this, but he wasn't and isn't.

I haven't read all of the USADA's brief in support of its conclusions, but I'd say the evidence looks, on first reading, stronger than I suspected. Nonetheless, we have been unable to hear an opposing argument. And LA can't bribe witnesses the way USADA has done. So, I remain cautious about drawing firm conclusions. We need BOTH sides of this story.

USADA's procedures for investigating and prosecuting these cases are smarmy at best and should be re-visited by the governing Board of USADA.

-Robert

Except that if the riders didnt testify they wouldnt have had anything to protect themselves from. So why exactly would they testify, except to tell the truth under oath, and then they had to stick to the truth in further investigations by other agencies or risk perjury. So indicating they were bribed to testify is false logic.

Further the only thing preventing us from hearing his side of the story is Lance. the 200 pages plus supporting documentation show he was working with Ferrari even up into triathlon. That's 5 or 6 years of lying about his doping doctor proven right right there.
 
Re: USADA/Lance Armstrong File Official Thread [Francois] [ In reply to ]
 
haha.. I hate myself right now as well.. I'm stuck on a fence and wish I wasn't.

my gut says yes, the report points to yes, Its obvious it was yes, but yet that key piece of evidence is still not being shown..

blahhh...I hope I never get picked for jury duty

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COROS Sports Science

 
Re: USADA/Lance Armstrong File Official Thread [Robert] [ In reply to ]
 
It doesn't stand because there is wording in WADA rules to make illegal things that make you faster, but aren't listed etc.
I forgot what the wording is exactly.

Where is your data on 'almost any kid would...'? Lance apologists have been wanting proof for years...now you have it, and
you throw out stuff like that without any evidence at all (spare me the 'it's obvious')...And there is a big difference between will
consider it and will do it.
 
Re: USADA/Lance Armstrong File Official Thread [Robert] [ In reply to ]
 
>In this regard, the whole doping argument has a class structure.

Whoa, man. Come back to us, Robert.
 
Re: USADA/Lance Armstrong File Official Thread [Tri-livin] [ In reply to ]
 
If you see something that looks, smell and has the texture of shit, and came out of a dog's ass, do you have to put your finger in it
and eat it, just to make sure?
 
Re: USADA/Lance Armstrong File Official Thread [--] [ In reply to ]
 
I have no doubt that in a world where doping did not exist that the results of the Tours would have been mostly the same. Whether LA had better dope than everyone else is pure speculation.

I'm sorry you think my post is bizarre, but this obsession with LA is what is bizarre when the issue is really one of social dynamics.

-Robert

"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank
 
Re: USADA/Lance Armstrong File Official Thread [Francois] [ In reply to ]
 
haha +1

no but in court I'd want that sample tested in a scientific lab (which it would be) and have the scientific evidence that it is in fact shit.

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COROS Sports Science

 
Re: USADA/Lance Armstrong File Official Thread [FJB] [ In reply to ]
 
FJB wrote:
People who CHOOSE to be blind will never see because they refuse to.


I met a guy a short while ago who read up on all the affidavits, is familiar with the e-mails, payments to Ferrari, eye-witness testimonials from 11 riders including Hincapie etc., and his only comment was, "but Lance never failed a drug test so he must be innocent."

There are simply no arguments against that kind of stupidity.

Sure there is:

How many drug tests did Hamilton, Andreu, Hincapie, et al fail during the same period.

You have 11+ riders who rode with Lance, trained with Lance and doped with Lance who subsequently have been caught in later years who has all given the same testimony on how they all doped, how they passed and avoided the tests, etc.

So... He did not fail x amount of tests? So what. many many many DOZENS of riders who were doping also passed the test. In short, the test proved nothing so passing it proved nothing.
 
Re: USADA/Lance Armstrong File Official Thread [53x12] [ In reply to ]
 
Nice Language.....take it somewhere else if you can't control yourself. I have better things to do than have to read your foul mouth. Yea, I get that I can choose not to read it, but when you throw it in the middle of a thread we are reading.....we are forced to read it. You seem just like the person I try to keep my kids away from to not have to listen to the vulgarity out of your mouth.

......and I bet your instinctive reaction is to throw some vulgarities at my comment as well. Nice!
 
Re: USADA/Lance Armstrong File Official Thread [Tri-livin] [ In reply to ]
 
so if a bunch of people testified that they saw the dog shit, and some even said the dog pooped on them, you'd still want the sample tested?
 
Re: USADA/Lance Armstrong File Official Thread [Francois] [ In reply to ]
 
Proof to me is a drug test result that is uncontradicted. If you know eyewitness testimony is often very unreliable, why would you base a conviction upon it? Which is why the most overturned verdicts are ones in cases in which eyewitness testimony played a central role. Rape cases come to mind.

-Robert

"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank
 
Re: USADA/Lance Armstrong File Official Thread [Robert] [ In reply to ]
 
Robert wrote:
I have no doubt that in a world where doping did not exist that the results of the Tours would have been mostly the same. Whether LA had better dope than everyone else is pure speculation.

-Robert

So you have no doubt about what would happen in a drug free world, but lance having better drugs is speculative? Nice job on that one.
 
Re: USADA/Lance Armstrong File Official Thread [pick6] [ In reply to ]
 
Have you heard of the Fifth Amendment?

-Robert

"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank
 
Re: USADA/Lance Armstrong File Official Thread [Tri-livin] [ In reply to ]
 
I can't say it enough... I believe the guy doped in my heart..


If the testimonials from Hincapie and the other 10 riders, the association with and payments to Ferrari, the e-mails and all the other circumstantial evidence in books (ie. LA Confidential) over the years doesn't convince you then absolutely nothing will.

I just want closure.. I think we all do...


Almost everyone had closure long ago and the information provided now just confirms it. I don't think you want closure, I think you simply do not want to believe Lance is a liar and a cheat and no information will change your mind.
 
Re: USADA/Lance Armstrong File Official Thread [Robert] [ In reply to ]
 
>We've already shown that nihilism is rampant in America.

Only eastern Europeans are affected by nihilism. The French by ennui. Americans just get bored.

In any case, the response to nihilism is to stop bathing and smoke clove cigarettes, maybe occasionally riding a fixie to get more cigarettes. No nihilist would ever scientifically optimize his physiology to get 6 W/kg.
 
Re: USADA/Lance Armstrong File Official Thread [Francois] [ In reply to ]
 
Lance is simply one of the few elite athletes in the world. I take that on faith tempered with some knowledge, but the quality of a drug program is a scientific issue.

-Robert

"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank
 
Re: USADA/Lance Armstrong File Official Thread [FJB] [ In reply to ]
 
My main question is still, how will Lance react to this? What could possibly be his defense to this mountain of evidence against him other than, " they are all liars." I have not heard his lawyers come up with any response other than saying the evidence is untrustworthy. That argument may work when one or two adverse witnesses come out, but with 11, and some with great reputations such as Hincapie, Vaughters, etc... how he can claim to be clean in the face of this evidence is downright laughable.
 
Re: USADA/Lance Armstrong File Official Thread [trail] [ In reply to ]
 
I know ennui sounds much cooler than boredom, but it still means the same ;)
 
Re: USADA/Lance Armstrong File Official Thread [trail] [ In reply to ]
 
A self-absorbed nihilist who wants to beat the world would in a heartbeat. You've also failed to draw a distinction between the French and the Americans. Check ennui at the door if you don't understand it.

I must leave for a 10 miler.

Catch you guys in the after life. (life after Lance)

-Robert

"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank
 
Re: USADA/Lance Armstrong File Official Thread [Robert] [ In reply to ]
 
How convenient. Well, now I know that discussing lance with you is the same as talking volition with guru driver, so I will just ignore you.
 
Re: USADA/Lance Armstrong File Official Thread [Maui5150] [ In reply to ]
 
Sure there is:

How many drug tests did Hamilton, Andreu, Hincapie, et al fail during the same period.

You have 11+ riders who rode with Lance, trained with Lance and doped with Lance who subsequently have been caught in later years who has all given the same testimony on how they all doped, how they passed and avoided the tests, etc.

So... He did not fail x amount of tests? So what. many many many DOZENS of riders who were doping also passed the test. In short, the test proved nothing so passing it proved nothing.



I did mention Marion Jones and Ben Johnson (he was the most test athlete in the world from 1980 - 1988). I also pointed to Hincapie's affidavit about how Lance withdrew from a race where they knew they would be tested, the 1999 positive test, the payments to the UCI etc.

He said like a few others have said here, "until I see 100% proof I will not believe it." and that is the stupidity I was referring to when i said you can't argue against it.
 

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