Just replying to the last post but some smartass got himself quoted in the NYT today:

http://www.nytimes.com/...259-OrARaai/0flRux6D 6LUjQ

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"Are you sure we're going fast enough?" - Emil Zatopek

Thanks for posting the link... I would have missed that and some great quotes.

At the end of the day, the Livestrong people have no foot to stand on. There is NO REASON other than ego to compete... especially given the revealing history showing how dirty a person he was and how he attacked and intimidated others.

While some will try and point to how much awareness he has raised in the fight against cancer, I see Livestrong more as a personal bank account for LA where the lines are blurred as to what is for Livestrong and what is for LA because shielding and isolating one protects the other. So when I see a HUGE spike in legal fees in the annual reports, I see money that could have gone to fight cancer going to protect the image. So while millions have been raised, along the way millions have been stolen. Some will claim that is the lesser of two evil, but to me it is not. In fact, if the focus was on Livestrong and not his ego and racing even more money could have been raised, and less money funneled to lawyers to protect the lie and the image.

I'm not sure one can draw a straight line, or a crooked one, between one man's alleged drug use and kids' drug use. I just don't hear kids saying "You know, I want to be just like Lyle Alzado, Vince McMahon and Barry Bonds." Young males are programmed for domination to spread their seed, and drugs are one means to that end; some are simply attracted to the fame and money. The WAR ON DRUGS, at all levels, has been a disaster. This case is a small sliver of the overall drug problem, which wil not go away with high profile prosecutions of drug users. In fact, the prosecution of Lance Armstrong is more likely to make kids think they need to get some steroids and EPO to become great too. Never understimate the value of unintended consequences. And this is one reason the WAR ON DRUGS has been a colossal failure on all fronts.

George Hincapie protected his financial future by throwing Armstrong under the bus. All those guys who got a six month slap on the wrist gave statements implicating LA primarily so they could protect themselves. None of those statements were given for honorable reasons or to elevate cycling. They never are. Why would anyone give them the time of day? They are not only drug cheats, but self-absorbed nihilistic opportunists. I thought Hincapie was better than this, but he wasn't and isn't.

I haven't read all of the USADA's brief in support of its conclusions, but I'd say the evidence looks, on first reading, stronger than I suspected. Nonetheless, we have been unable to hear an opposing argument. And LA can't bribe witnesses the way USADA has done. So, I remain cautious about drawing firm conclusions. We need BOTH sides of this story.

USADA's procedures for investigating and prosecuting these cases are smarmy at best and should be re-visited by the governing Board of USADA.

-Robert

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"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank

and you really have to question Rev3's decision to embrace and welcome him given that ego and vindictiveness. If it were really about the cancer, they would have distanced themselves from him while still supporting Ulmann and not put #7 on their Facebook banner.

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I understand Rev3s decision. I don't agree with it, but that is my own opinion.

The decision to race the Half/Full obviously to me came from Lance himself by way of the Ullman Foundation and one only has to look at the ties between LA, Doug Ullman, and the Ulman foundation to understand that they are far from an arms-length separation.

Rev3 has done a lot to fight cancer, especially teen cancer over the years. Many of their staff spent the winter/spring running across America to raise funds, and in some ways, with the delusional fan boys that are out there with plastic pro-doping bracelets, possibly the participation raised more money for the fight.

I think the Half/Full is really more about Cancer than competition, so I give them a pass for that, what they do in the future will shape my opinion more.

I also think it is a difficult position to be put in in terms of promotion, recognition, and the same, but know that Charlie made his decisions based upon what he saw as the best possible way to raise the most money to fight cancer and support those who are either fighting it, or have lost the battle, or have loved ones in that position.

He can't?

George Hincapie protected his financial future by throwing Armstrong under the bus.

He didn't really throw Lance under the bus, Lance did that to himself. Hincapie and the others were just telling the truth because they were all caught.

All those guys who got a six month slap on the wrist gave statements implicating LA primarily so they could protect themselves.

Lance had the same option but decided to stick to his lies and will continue to use his fame to deflect and deny.

None of those statements were given for honorable reasons or to elevate cycling. They never are. Why would anyone give them the time of day? They are not only drug cheats, but self-absorbed nihilistic opportunists.


In my view they all got what they deserved. They all came out after the fact to admit and I have no sympathy because none came out and admitted it in advance. I also have no sympathy for the stiffer sentence with Lance because he used his foundation to shield himself and make himself look good and for that, he deserves a far more strong penalty.

Cyclists don't care about cycling, everyone knows that. Every professional athlete on earth is concerned with themselves as reaching that level is a self-absorbed process. Lance is the King of self-absorption and used his fame, wealth and cancer story to sell an image that many will still cling to. Like I said, I have no sympathy for any of them.

As for cycling, the stories coming out are not a surprise and there are obviously deep problems with the sport. The athletes are just the tip of the iceberg. I'm not sure what you can do about it but the entire sport is circumspect from the affidavits.

ok... now that there aren't 40 posts per minute...I have read through only a couple of the pages so far and will admit I'm probably missing a ton of information..

Do I think Lance doped.. of course he did...Everyone did (that isn't taking his back at all... just a fact... according to george and levi)

Do I think O.J. killed her.... of course he did... but in court it wasn't "without a doubt"


Will someone please link me to the specific pages that show undeniable truth he doped? That is what I'm interested in...

Either positive test results, emails asking for drugs, finances spent directly towards drugs or anything else...

Again, There really is no doubt that he doped.. I'm not debating that... but I still want to see the hard evidence

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COROS Sports Science

I think what he was saying was not monetary bribes. Instead, LA is unable to offer reduced suspensions, etc. In that regard, LA cannot offer bribes to witnesses.

....and if he did dope was his dope so much better than everyone elses dope?

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Find out what it is in life that you don't do well, then don't
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http://d3epuodzu3wuis.cloudfront.net/JR+Exhibit+B.pdf

Would this suffice?

You did not answer my question. ...................

thank you!! appreciate it..

help me out a little more if you could.. I'm not a doctor and don't try to pretend like I'm one...

what do all the numbers mean? I know I'm asking a lot, but this is the biggest story in cycling history and I want to atleast sound educated on the topic when people ask.

Thanks

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COROS Sports Science

Kids may be a stretch but young pros? People don't say "I want to be just like Barry Bonds" purely and solely because he got busted. Up until very recently every young bike rider in the world wanted to be exactly like Armstrong. So maybe they train their butts off for 8-10 years and arrive, bright-eyed and naive, and their first pro-team training camp - what does their wily old DS say when they announce then that they want to be just like Armstrong then? Would that conversation go the same way after this report? Would it even start?

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"Are you sure we're going fast enough?" - Emil Zatopek

They are the accounting books with amounts, paid, due, and the balances of various people to Health and Performance SA (SA is a structure similar to that of LLC in Europe).
The amounts are mostly in Swiss Francs (that were a bit under the $US at this time even though it's a bit higher now). You see several riders named, but mostly Lance.
The books also include tax dues and returns expected, so it's not like it can't easily be corroborated. There is a training and osteopath consulting for $110,000. I should tell Lance
I know some cheaper DOs.

And as an aside, many of these are in 2006 and after...which given the fact that Lance testified under oath that he had broken all ties with Ferrari in 2004, should really open people's
eyes.

300 more signups, and prolly 100 tickets paid for at $~45 a piece for "Lance Unplugged" and then about $12k raised on auction stuff at the event. There's no doubt Lance was good for Half Full from that aspect. But I also think if cancer was his #1, and he was doing this to repay Doug, scheduling this as soon as the lawsuit started, and instead of racing, signing autos, and bringing out some of his star powered friends to hand out finish line awards, etc. He could have maybe gotten even more sign ups.

I talked to everyone but Charlie about the issue this weekend (quietly, and not complaining, I asked questions and listened). I don't disagree they market it as more about cancer than competition, but if that was really true, they wouldnt put together a course that difficult. That's the toughest bike other than Quassy in the Rev3 series.

Finally, I too give Rev3 a pass, especially considering the lengths they went to in order to get the Olympic race sanctioned. USAT was resistant and it was a lot of back and forth and scheduling changes to make it all work.

Who cares about the doping. 80+% of the charges were for supplying/covering up/intimidating, etc.

Please explain the over $1 Million dollars given to Ferrari.

Also please explain the $100K+ given to the UCI that just happened to coincide with a "failed test"

Third, please show me ONE other pro cyclist in the last 30 years who has made a similar improper donation.

And yeah... when I vindictive emails from Lance stating "you are not riding on our team this year in the tour because you testified against Ferrari" (see the emails between Frankie, Betty and Lance) and then stating that if Frankie wants to be a "team player" he might be able to ride with the team next year...

Which carries a bigger penalty in the US, using drugs or trafficing drugs?

Exactly. His 'dope' was a superior genetic ability. In this regard, the whole doping argument has a class structure. The best genetic athlete would not want second best athletes leveling the playing field by doping. But, just in case, I'll dope too, and thus, I maintain my dominance. We've seen this is powerlifting, wrestling, bodybuilding, and sports ad nauseam.

At its heart, the anti-doping message is one of a fairly wide ranging set of middle class values intended to protect the middle class and it's structural elements: money, prestige, power, and their myths. Which is yet another reason why it has failed miserably. It doesn't address the mind set of "nothing left to lose", poverty, and the horrors of living in neighborhoods where daily living is all about barely surviving. The irony here is that these are mostly white, middle class kids who are essentially nihilists at heart. Why have they abandoned their class's values? Or, are their class's values a mile wide, and mm deep? Oh, yes, the middle class is full of hypocrisy, which is why they all go to church on Saturday or Sunday and then screw their neighbor on Monday. So, in the end, the values of the lowest classes have actually predominated in America, and much of the world. You see it on Wall Street, in Washington, D.C., in your neighbor, and in YOURSELF. The only superficial differences between the lower classes and the middle classes is manners and some language usage; and the use of physical violence to gain power in neighborhoods (the middle class uses the more "honorable" war instead).

Until you address the thin veneer of civilization and build a robust humanity and value structure how will you ever address the drug issue? Don't expect the churches to do it, don't expect government to do it, and don't expect any of the current business models to do it. So how does it get done?


-Robert

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"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank

Where in that document is there proof that the money was for EPO/drugs etc?

It is proof that money was trasnfered from Lance to the Dr., but unless I'm missing something there is no smoking gun in those statements.

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"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06

People who CHOOSE to be blind will never see because they refuse to.

I know I'm asking a lot, but this is the biggest story in cycling history and I want to atleast sound educated on the topic when people ask.


If you want to sound educated why don't you read the affidavits and the other documents provided? If your going to answer people's questions and this is the biggest story in cycling, shouldn't you do more than ask other people questions?

It's the gun, with the safety on.

So, what we can take from this is...
Lance spent a lot of money on sports performance supplies ( be that drugs, nutrition, vitamins, whatever) but obviously in the context of the study it appears to be drugs
Lance spent a lot of money on a training and osteopath.. which I guess could be aimed at PED's

Look.. I'm not trying to clear lance at all...I know the guy doped... But I want that piece of evidence from say the performance supplies shop in Europe where the guy has a receipt with lance armstrongs name on it... or an email asking from these PED's specifically...

this is one of those 99.99% things... and unfortunetly so far.. If I was a juror, I couldn't say guilty without a doubt.. and that is sad..

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Ask Santa for the proof you want. Who knows, he may be able to bring it to you with his super fast reindeers.

Your post is bizzarre. But to answer the only answerable point, there's plenty to suggest that "his dope" was better dope. Or at least, better understood, better administered and more scientifically used dope. Start with TH's book to understand how that might have come about.

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"Are you sure we're going fast enough?" - Emil Zatopek