utter tosh, elite sports is elite sports look at Beckham playing in MLS, found it to be a joke, his team mates were clueless so he tried to wangle a wya bck to Milan, no satisfaction.

Your comparison is ridiculous. Are you saying that someone finishing with a sub-9:00 IM can't find satisfaction in the sport simply because he has to race in an AG classification? Come on - you're just trying to be obtuse for the sake of your argument. Satisfaction in triathlon, when you are not a pro, should come from beating your own best times, not by beating the other people in your AG.

As for the obnoxious responses, the post was not a whine it proposed an alternative, ever quick to jump on a thread most of them sompletelty missed the pint an decided to call me a bitch girl and make it about me

It was a whine. Go back and read your posts. You were complaining about the fact that there is no other category for him to race in and therefore it made you look bad and took away Kona slots.

If you're surprised about the personal attacks, then I can only assume you're new to ST. You need a flame-proof outfit to post on here.

I'd say quit worrying about what the other people do and focus on doing your best. If you do, then the rest of it really doesn't matter. Take satisfaction from knowing you worked hard and did the best you can--don't focus on external validation for internal satisfaction.

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This is a minority sport and yes we have had a boom phase, keep going with your attitude and we end up with a sport for a very small elite group who complain about the rest of the world not caring about their sport and or the lack of coverage it gets\\

SOrry if you got offended by my sarcastic remark, but I wasn't trying to attack you. I suppose you may be new around here, and as I said, we have gone through this question many times, the most heated was the Steve Larsen AG era..And I dont think my attitude is going to kill the sport, in fact from most of the responses to your question, it is obvious that my attitude is the prevailing one. And the sport has been doing quite well lately, so I'm not sure where you get that this ex pro/AG debate is going to kill it. Maybe it does not work well for you, or you just do not like it, but apparently you are in the small minority, and the sport really does not care about the issue enough to change it....That's all....

bike racing has a masters category, and guess what, it's loaded with ex-pros. that's just how things are.

I vote for the open category....no age groups until you reach 50, everyone gets to race Matty Read and Andy Potts.

Actually make that everyone under 45....I race 45-49 next year :-)

I'm with the OP.
We need an enforceable system to enforce divisions based on Age Groupers, Professionals, Full Time Workers, Part Time Workers, and sadly the Unemployed.
Once you sign up for a race it should be mandatory that a race representative lives with you for a week to accurately determine one's proper division. Yes, this will add to race costs but clearly it's worth it to ensure a competitive playing field.
There will be three Professional divisions, one for each level of time one devotes to work outside triathlon and likewise for Age Group athletes. Now the Professional Age Grouper will have to face off against his/her brethren.
The Unemployed Age Grouper category would be one hell of a battle this year. Who do you think would win it at Kona?

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Kona isn't really a goal of mine, so I never put any thought into how a further breakdown of classification might impact that. I think that there might be some merit to a Masters category, though it should be no younger than 50 as a lot of people just keep getting faster and faster through their 40's.

Freakin' Tom Evans...

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I'm all for a masters pro category that begins at 40, and a senior one at 50.. We had one for awhile, but it didnt have much momentum, perhaps when there are more people to fill in those fields, and some geratric sponsors to put up the cash..Maybe the Geritol Senior Triathlon tour, primes by Depends, Viagra, and Nutracal.....

Open category needs to be under 45. How the hell am I supposed to compete with Tom Evans and Steve Larsen. Neither powercranks nor Bento Box can elevate me to that level. Then again, you get to race Dave Scott, Scott Molina, Joe Boness and Monty in the over 50 category....I don't know what is worse?. I picked the right parents for writing and speaking but not for triathlon.

He/ she would also get satisfaction from posting times closer to the pros, that holds true for most pros in most other sports, we create a divsion based on weight and age groups so why bother having these divsions? Answer it provides the oppurtunity to give reward over and baobe the joy of competition to to more people and thus keep more people in the sport for longer wahich in turn is good for the sport.

Thankyou for making a post which dealt with the conetent of the post and stayed away from personal insults. In terms of the satsifaction the open competitor gets satisfaction from having a close race with atheletes of similiar ability. Unfortunatley most of the other posts have gone to the personal and agressive tone that is unfortunatley comonplace in the USA

yes you are right, yes you undertsatnd the poitnt of my post better than men, silly me. Of course the person going under 9 is satisfied is he satisfied beating out the mums and dads of the worlds who did not have his backgroung, probably and hopefully not.

It does not make me look bad as he or she is no reflection on me as we all have different goals. I'm not new to ST I normally just read and now I know why, you can't have a sensibel discussion in this place as you are all determined to not only tell somebody else they are wrong but abuse them along the way.

Chapman would have won his category if it was open male, he probably would have been happier to beat a bunch of like skilled athelets instead of the civil servant who had no elite sports background.

That is assuming that pros are like pros in other sports.

I stand by the point I think it would be a good idea to try it see if it helps, it has been tried and some people like it. If ot then don' why not just say you don't like it, why do others (not you) have to call me a bitch. Anyway I have refused to go to thier level so far and I will continue to rty and discuss this reasonably

Sorry if I ready yours wrong but I was under fire from many directions and I probably jumped the gun. I think that you are right and the attitude is the prevailing one, clearly on this forum anyway. The AG ex pro thing won't kill tris you are right and changing it up won't grow the sport either.

I think there are a group of people out there who fit into this small category and who might be happier with the compettion that this category offers them. Happy to be wrong

Ah, good. Resorting to bashing the "ugly American". Good way to keep it civil.

From your OP:

Quote:

I'm annoyed with the publicity that is given to age groupers who break records, prime example:

Why should you be annoyed? Why would you even care? You repeatedly say "I'm not looking for Kona", so why would it even bother you?

If Pele showed up to play at your local pitch in the intramural leagues, would that annoy you too?

Quote:

is that there needs to be a category for open male and female, for ex pros and age groupers who are age groupers in name only.

What is an "age grouper in name only"? You separate ex-pros, so it obviously isn't them. Or is someone that races AG and gets a 9:15, do you immediately assume that they should be pro, so they are AG in name only? Do they annoy you too?

Quote:

Maybe this is all bitterness as I can't go fast enough to get a Kona slot, once it was 10 hours, then 9;45 and now 9:30 then the ex pro comes along and takes it down to 9:15, yes he made the sacrifice that I did not (plus he had talent) but surely the creation of the open category makes sense

So how would you enforce this? If someone races AG, and they go below 9:30, then they aren't really an AGer? They are immediately moved to this new wonder class, because that's the only place they can get satisfaction from racing?

I'm guessing that yes, it's some bitterness combined with an off the wall idea that really makes no sense to anyone but you. In my martial arts (ATA), when I competed in top 10 weapons (That is the final tournament of the top 10 ranked that determine the ATA World Champion for the next year), the top ranked competitor in my group was a former NASKA national champion, which is basically pro status. I didn't win, but I also didn't whine that "Gee, that's unfair he was there!"

It's called luck of the draw. You put your best out there. If you beat your PB, great, good on you. If not, there's always another race. If we "water down" the qualification to where you COULD go fast enough to qualify for Kona, is it really worth it?

John

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Good post and I already do what you are suggesting, since I started doing this sport for the first time in 7 years, 1.5 years ago, I made a concious decison to stay away from other triatheltes, train alone with an online coach and stay away from the tri community.

In a moment of weakness I guess I decided to see what it was like out thier in tri world and it looks like nothing has changed, the egos are bigger, the smack talking worse and the treatment of our fellow person not so flash.

To be fair your post and the one from support crew were the excpetion and its good to see some nice people out there who can have a discussion without resorting to personal insults. Anyway I'm back of training as I have a Kona slot to win and maybe post a time good enought to get me into the open category

To be fair I think I stayed above the personal stuff for much longer than those attacking me instead of the post. The Ugly American thing was your call, however just look how quickly this thread became a personal attack, most likely by posters in North America, maybe some in Europe and the occasional insomniac.

I have stayed away from bashing the ex pro , but I said it annoyed me, look the guy was a top class athelte had his time and now he is running around in the age groups basically taking away oppurtunities from others. okay you guys say tough good for the ex pro and stop whinging to the me and anybody else who thinks the recent ex pro might find it a bit more worthwhile to take on other people of similiar ability.

Maybe they just love competing and enjoying the sport, good for them they might enjoy it with a different category maybe not. As we are yet to see the post from the ex pro or soon to be ex pro I assume that the people who are posting on this don't fit into this category and can't relate to the issue, so it's no surprise to see the material that is on here today.

If Pele showed up i'd blast past him as he is too old, maradona is too fat and George Best is dead, but if say Lothar Matthaues or Romario showed up in my local soccer league their tema would lose the points for playing him in the first place and possibbly lose more league points as football is smart and has rules for players who should not be there.

Not sure if i said i was not looking for a kona slot, not this year as i'm not good enough no matter who shows up and my PB makes me happy. The open category has been trialled and worked sometimes and not other times, eg when you get two people in a race. So i'm not the only person who thinks this, but anyway the ST jury has spoken for what that is worth reminding me why I only ever used to read and look in on in amazement at the behaviour of my fellow man

Best of luck too you but remember that Kona is not he be-all and end-all. If it motivates you to get out and work harder and get closer to your potential then good on you. If you let it define success and drive happiness and satisfaction in the sport I think your missing the point of our great sport.

I raced at a little sprint in VA this weekend and had a blast! I'm totally psyched that race season is back and i get to hang with a bunch of great people doing something I love! This is what it's all about.

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Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.

You're taking most of these posts too personally. Instead, you need to consider whether the sarcasm is an indicator of the validity of your position and the strength of your argument.

Step back, re-think your position. DawnT gave a concise and thorough response. If her initial post doesn't shift your position, nothing will.

The life blood of the sport is the majority of triathletes who don't care about award/recognition divisions. They compete from within and often chase the person who happens to be in front of them, or fend off the one chasing them.

The best reason for any separate division (pro) is to allocate the appropriate resources to ensure a fair race for the money.

An Age Group Record for a course or distance is meaningless if it excludes for any basis other than age. So, I guess I would agree that it is silly to recognize a 40 year-old's Age record if a 40 year-old pro posted a faster result.

I say bring it. I'd love for Natascha Badmann to be in my age group one day. She'd beat me like a dirty rug in a sprint but few other sports let you compete in the same event with the pros. My kids and jobs aren't disabilities that I need to be handicapped for in a race IMO. The best thing about triathlon is that all the folks in my wave are equal when the gun goes off - then its just me and the clock to see who wins baby!

If this isn't an offensive personal attack toward ex-pros who race as age-groupers, I don't know what is.

I'm not trying to attack you, but if you're going to bring your "bitterness" (your word) toward ex-professional triathletes to a triathlon on-line forum, you should at least learn to spell the word TRIATHLON.

Ouch, hate it when that happens.

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Me too. Thought I fixed it in time. I guess not.

I'd just like to point out that the people who think pros will not want to drop AG because of the lack of competition. Many just aren't wired that way and care about winning.

Its pretty common in cycling for a guy to sandbag a few races so they can drop a CAT and actually have a chance to win.

Its going to happen and there's not too much to stop it, pros leave the ranks all the time. The only real issue is they are taking a Kona slot away from what it was intended to be. If they win the AG, no one should really care.

John, I think you missed his point, which was that anyone faster than him ought to turn pro, or stay home.

It's a little bit like driving: anyone going slower than you is an idiot, anyone going faster than you is a maniac (not you personally)

ahhh... that one again. :-)

Like usual I say: I would like to see them put away with the pro-division. Everyone race according to their age. Period.

Everything else gets complicated. As someone posted: What about living at altitude? What about early retirement? No kids?

Axel

Oh, crap, you're right. And here I've been trying to figure him out rationally. Silly me.

John

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