You started this out by naming a specific ex-pro who "annoys" you. Then you made a disparaging remark about ex-pros who race as age-groupers. If that particular person was reading this I'd say he'd be right to consider it a "personal" attack.

As far as missing your point, how could you tell that by what little I wrote? I get your point. I just think it's nonsense. Am I allowed to be annoyed at you being annoyed over the "publicity" that some ex-pro age-groupers get? (Again, your words from your first post.)

I'm also not sure where you got the "since you know everything" remark. Maybe I am confused, as you say. I'll be sure to go back and read all of your clear and well-written posts to try to become less confused.

You've been taking a pounding (& rightfully so).

"Good points, I did not know that there were fully sponsored AG." Ignorance is then bliss, eh? Shooting from the hip with an ill-informed opinion leaves you a wide open target.

I have no idea to respond about "stealing anybody's slot." Is there a sense of entitlement operating here? Since when does any one own a slot (& why are you Ironman-centric?).

Do you prefer cheddar or swiss with your whine?

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#swimmingmatters
Laugh hard. Run fast. Be kind.
The Doctor (#12)

I can't read either so no poker

So I was flipping through the latest issue of Swimming World today, and they had articles on their masters swimming swimmers of the year. In the old lady division, there was a 71 year old Japanese woman who had swum in her youth and had been good enough to compete in the 1956 Olympics who was still competing masters in 2008.

So where does she fit into your proposed classification? She's still whumping the other women in her age group after all.

HAHAHAHA in regards to your Kona chances I don't think it'd matter who raced you, you have the most defeatist attitude, HTFU and go train.

Go google the Canberra Half IM from December last year and check chapman's result. The guy has gone from a 5.30 Half IM to a 8.47 in 4 months, I think that's incredible.
Search him in the race pics, and see how he was 20kgs or so overweight.
Basically he has not done anything for 5 years, so I don't think you can complain too much about him being an ex-pro.
In fact I think the officials may have laughed at a guy who was carrying 20kgs trying to get a pro card after no racing in 5yrs.

100% ... that really is all we need.

Axel

He did not take his slot. He lost 25 kegs the last 3 months. This race was a stepping stone back to the Pro field which he will be racing in at IMWA in December.

The real shame of triathlon is the psuedo pro female field. The lack of the AG mens pack to draft off exposed them all on the weekend bar one.

You tried to qualify at the harderst race where M30s have to run typically within 10% of the average first 5 pro finishing times. Try China, Arizona, CDA, Brazil and your up on the +16 to +18% range which is a huge difference (about 45 minutes difference in relative performance).
http://www.triracebook.com/hqc.php

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TriRaceBook.com
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Hawaii Qualification Analysis

I'm glad you gave a little background on his last few years.I figured that it would be something like that.What a great deal of our age-group friends do not realise is that it aint easy to geta pro card here in Oz.You can't just nominate that you want to turn pro or get a card by finishing in the top five at some lame race in bumfuck-nowhere.I always said that one day an ager will win an Ironman and it would be an ex-pro or young stud who has to post a great time BEFORE HE IS ALLOWED TO RACE PRO.

I know from personal experience with Tri Australia.In 1995 I qualified to race as a pro in Hawaii by qualifying in Ironman Canada and was told that I needed a sanction by my national governing body so when I got back to Oz I called Triathlon Australia and asked for thier "blessing" to race pro representing Oz in Kona.The short answer was a very quick no way!!They did not care that I had qualified fair and square(thanks' to a stupidly long rolldown) against the pro field and they did not care that IMC let me race pro.As far as they were concerned they had never heard of me and that was that.

I can't say that I blame them and I now agree that it is better to make it hard to get a pro card and keep the standard of "pros" racing as high as possible.

. PS. Congrats to Chappo on a great result and for a successful transition from fat bastard to fast bastard.It gives me some hope as I'm 20k overwieght and am about to enter IMWA, IM Malaysia and IM China for the next season. ;-)

If he really was 25kg heavier 3 months ago then maybe he did not expect to go so well, it is hard to say where you will finish in IM if you have never done one before. Remember in Australia the pros had a 35 minute head start and the field was small, if you did not expect to keep up you would be best to start with the age groupers. He sure flogged some seasoned pros, that would be a pretty good debut from a current ITU athlete let alone one that has no raced for 10 years.

I've been balanced I've tried to see all points of view you keep taking little bits of the post and twisting them out of context.

Go fuck your self, you fucking wanker

A little narcissistic, aren't we?

Triathlon is NOT all about you.

Think about this thread rationally. Is it really that we're all wrong and you're right? Seriously?

It sucks that there are fast people that make it difficult for even us mildly talented people to qualify for Kona. Sure. But if someone lines up in my AG and goes faster than me...so be it. (Insert pro's name) is always going to beat me. I don't care if he's got a pro card or not. He's more talented than me. There are a ton of AG people with loads of talent who have made other choices in life than follow the paltry life of a second or third tier triathlon pro. Why do you begrudge them the same opportunity race as you? Really. This is NOT all about you.

If you REALLY want to argue a valid point...lets talk about AGers who are doping. THEY are the ones STEALING spots to Kona and National/World Championships. THAT really happens and THAT will get about 100% of us on your side.

I could see the problem if they put another factor into like the ITU age race. That would be saying you have to be within 10% of the first guy in your divisions time. So if some ex-pro goes 8hr 40min, you would have to go under 9hr 32mins. But that rule is not in place.

Sure ex-pros should race; that is awesome you get to measure yourself against the best guys in the world of your age. Having to go under 9hrs 42min would be a good challenge also.

But a stupid anawer to your question would be:

Everyone has to follow the same 13hr training programme for the 16 weeks before the race; that way it would be more even on the start line.

You guys really take this Kona thing serious which is great stuff. Just me, but I struggle to take it that serious.

Racing against drug cheats would annoy a bit though, but I beleive in triathlon with all the skills required the more focused clean athletes will win. It takes valuable training time an organisation to be a cheat anyway i guess.


G.

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http://www.TriathlonShots.com
Full event coverage of triathlon/ironman in photos.

Go . . . . . .wanker

OK, that's about it for me.

I realize you are taking a bit of a beating on this thread. Myself and others have tried to be polite, helpful and diplomatic in our posts. I realize others have been more direct, abrupt and rude but, that is uncalled for and inappropriate language.

You have kind of egged everyone on by continuing to respond again and again to posts - that just keeps it going, my friend. Sometimes you need to walk away or agree to disagree with people and leave it at that.

I don't know if this is your attitude at all, but I do see this a lot in triathlon - this entitlement, that a lot of triathletes have. I think that it comes from taking up a sport later in life, after having been very successful in other areas. If you grew up in sport and competed at a modest to high level when younger, before you did anything else in life, you knew that there were no medals for 4th. That when you missed making it to the finals by one second . . . . . . .you missed making it to the finals by one second! Try again next year!! Real sport is extraordinarily ruthless - the clock does not lie nor does the results sheet or the game scorecard. I think that this is often a hard message for many triathletes who want to go to the next level with this, to get.

My son, who is 12, just took part in the Provincial Basketball Championships. His team missed making it into the finals by one basket - 2 points. They won all the games they needed to in the round-robin part of the tournament to make it to the finals - but they ended up tied with another team. So it came down to total points - and they came up one basket short. One measly basket, over 4 games - that was all the difference. The kids were a bit frustrated and disapointed, but it was at good teaching opportunity about exactly what we are talking about here.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Awesome, _very_ well put. Thanks!

x2 for getting rid of the pro cat and have age 20-40 together. Then 10year steps.

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CAMPAGNOLO GRAN FONDO NEW YORK

I'm tempted to pull off the thread but considering the background given for Trent (who I think retired the year after I left Oz, in 2001...), I think the beating is somewhat deserved.
That said, try to moderate the language a tad, mate...

'...Personally, the specialty group thing in triathlon has gone too far - does there have to be a category for everyone? Personally, I think it should be Open competition from 20 - 40, Junior for less than 20, and 5 year age-group for masters over 40. That would simplify things greatly...'

OK, but this still does not solve the problem that Tom Evans is in my category (M40-44) !!!! In this new scheme does he qualify for Kona slots in 40-44 even if he beats everyone in all categories....just checking in cause any hope guys like me have of going to Hawaii is based on rolldown and we can't have a 41 year old dentist take our slots you know....

All kidding aside, I think there have been good points posted on both sides. I don't think you have to start an open category until 45 though. Guys in their early 40's really are not that much different than a 30 year old if they took care of themselves (OK, it is more painful walking downstairs after a race or hard training session, but we also have better tactical sense and experience).

The big slide happens after 45 as evereyone who is past that point can attest to.

Dev

Quote:

The big slide happens after 45 as everyone who is past that point can attest to.

Well, not everyone.. ;-)

Support Crew

Hrm. No kids, 1 cat, Avg is about 173, and I DO play poker. Do you prefer tournament or ring? :D

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

I hope to be like Joe, but I am willing to concede that getting slower is just part of how it works for 99.999% of humans after 45. I think in general, it is better to accept this reality and be thankful for any upside (or not slow down) than to get continuously frustrated with the reality of our mortality. Nothing worse than an old guy who combs his long hair over or an old guy trying to be studly like a 20 year old, when he is clearly past that point. Its fine if you are old and have a full head of hair or quads like Joe...then you aren't faking it (that is acceptable) :-)

Yep. My wife has two shots each year to qualify for Worlds in her competitive arena (Irish Dance). Her regional comp in November, and Nationals. There are 5 slots plus one more for every ten competitors. Don't make it? Have one bad dance? Oh, so sorry, see you next year. She's made it three times, and missed about 10 times.

In triathlon, you can always do 3 or 4 IM's in a year (if you have the time/fitness) or a few 70.3 distance to qualify. You've got more than the one shot.

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

+1

Best post in the thread so far! I have never really understood why there are Age Groups. I can see special divisions for the handicap/special needs participants who are facing extra obstacles and maybe even for the extreme elderly but beyond that people are just people...right?

Perhaps this was mentioned earlier but I also do not think that these ex-pros who race as AGers are doing it to really compete or win their AG. They are probably looking at their results in terms of their overall placing. I guess a big part of this keeps coming back to qualifying for Kona which of course is the ULTIMATE goal of EVERY real triathlete...just ask anybody on ST!!!

Actually, if one graphs (as I have) the age-group world records across the individual swim, bike, and run distances, you find that after the age of 32, there is an almost eerie decline equal to nearly 1.0%/year of the open men's world record time. Individuals can differ, but potential of the species as it ages appears to be genetically defined.

Note: Where the data set is relatively small (after the age of 70, for example, or in the 40K bike time trial), one does see anomalies. But the general trend is pretty striking.

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Lew

I think as age groupers, the guys in the 40's are still able to compete with better technique and tactics, as well as more effective training and time management...but if you say it is 1% per year, at 45 I guess that is 10-15% handicap over the 30-35 year old that gets tough to overcome with all the tricks of the trade :-). I think if you talk to most of the guys that are competitive in mid 40's they'll say their swim-bike is just as fast at ever, but that the run keeps slipping slightly every few years.

For that very reason, I decided to focus more on swim bike volume and intensity, and when I run I don't run long and try to do some fast footspeed stuff (can be as simple as accelerations)...all those long slow runs, just wear us down and make us....well....slower....most of us have plenty of endurance and don't need to prove to ourselves that we can run 2-3 hours, but likely would benefit from still being able to run 39,38,37,36, 35 minute 10K...I actually find the pounding that the body takes running slow after 90 minutes is a lot worse than running fast after 20 minutes....muscles and tendons seem a lot more elastic early in runs :-)

Speaking of older "athletes who can compete" with the young ones....how about Madonna kicking ass out of the 50-54 age group....in the sport of bubble gum pop, the girl keep re-inventing herself and can compete with all the young divas....she's not asking to compete in the F50-54...she's taking them all on :-)

...OK, back to the regular programming