Agreed and David Millar confessed, then helped clean up the sport.

Michi Weiss: this one is directly for your own reputation...be true to yourself, know one else just you. Then, given what your conviction implies, gather the biggest team of do-gooders, PR experts and drive a message that would seemingly reflect you as a person; push for clean sport. BUT don't push for clean sport having not publicly confessed of any wrong-doing, especially when not also denying any wrong-doing.

That is my advice, chances are in 3 - 4 years time you will have a very creditable name. Continue on your current path and I feel it will self-destruct before you know it. Just like I believe a number of other non-convicted athletes will be brought to light in the not to distant future.

Yea, a number of times…raw strength from WHAT???? we know that answer.

Make the trip up here to Ottawa Canada from Maine and we have some of the best XC skiing on the planet...plus we have 8km of speedskating on the frozen canal. My best races are generally in April or May after a winter of snow sports so I agree that they can be very beneficial. Also add in short 20 min transition runs after XC skiing. You'll probably be "less sore". If you are compensating with upper body, your weight shift is probably bad. also your upper body should not get that sore because the poling motion should be initiated with both your legs and a crunch of your abs...the arms only transmit the force that the core generates. Put the poles away and just go out legs only for the first 30 minutes. All the teenagers that I coach hate when we do the legs only drills because of the burn. But it pays.

Fast forward to 4:00 in this video and you can see the core being engaged: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrI8e4ltazw

Fast forward to 1:30 into this video and you can see the legs being used and weight shift: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6DTvHo6eYQ Lots of good head on shots for weight shift in this video overall from the camera work here.

Anyway, while it is good to talk about sport in this thread, you'll need to answer folks in our sport at some time on the other topics. I suspect you intend to do this at some point on your own terms, not when we brow beat it out of you. If anything, you are seeing clear messages from all sides.

And he passed all drug tests in his career and only confessed after police found epo in his house. We have no way of knowing if he's been clean after his suspension, or if his anti doping stance was just to gain back acceptance and find a way to continue his career. One of the biggest problems in cycling is/was the fact that ex-dopers are allowed back in either as riders or in other capacity. Most of them are accepted quickly again and the old ways are never broken. If we start going out of our way to welcome ex-dopers back and idolize them I don't think it'll end well in this sport either. I'm all for second chances in life but don't think it should be easy to come back to a sport and quickly gain respect after a suspension.

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BA coaching http://www.bjornandersson.se

Completely agree with you Bjorn, and thanks for your input from a pro standpoint. As you were in those same trenches, you and the other athletes are the ones Michi has to convince first! Bravo to you and jonnyo.

I'm finding this thread refreshing. The backlash against MW by not only fans and age groupers but by his peers gives me hope that the sport has a chance of getting and staying clean. For less ambiguous PEDs (EPO, blood doping, T), I'm in favour of lifetime bans. Again, IMO you don't accidentally blood dope. It's a concerted effort to cheat and therefore the practice should be met with zero tolerance.

With respect to self-righteousness, I don't think it's too much to ask professionals to abide by the rules. Otherwise, pros can game the system and the risk is worth the reward. IMO 2 years, or even 4 years, is a slap on the wrist. Heaven forbid we raise triathlon to a higher standard...

If we make MW a sacrificial lamb, so be it, IMO. It would only act as a deterrent for other pros and age groupers from doping. The sport will be stronger for it. Giving a hypothetical lifetime ban (including age group awards) to MW would not destroy him. It's not a jail sentence. He would be perfectly free to a make a living in any other profession of his choosing.

I'll congratulate MW on his win but I don't think its surprising to see many with raised eyebrows. I guess my question to MW would be to ask him:

During your suspension what different training methods did you employ to race your fastest ironman race ever, including beating 2 top 10 Kona finishers, without the benefit of PEDs? The answer would also help act as a deterrent to doping since it would illustrate what effective training methods can offset any gains seen by doping.

"Your perhaps missing my point, I named them all as athlete not convicted of doping and as role models."

i may or may not have missed your point. all i know are the questions you asked me. here is what you asked:

"Can I ask you these two simple questions; why didn't you give the opportunity to the likes of ... "

and then you listed all your athletes. and my answer was, i have given them the opportunity. i regularly appeal to pros to help out their sponsors, be of value to their sponsors, get new sponsors, and position themselves for better sponsor contracts, through leveraging social media and through speaking directly to their sponsors' audience here. you wrote your list. you go through that list and see how many of those pros do that.

"Second question did you even consider asking them? If not, why not?"

i think this is closely aligned to the first question, but, yes, i ask them regularly. further, i tell sponsors who're looking for pros to ask prospective athletes how they communicate to their audiences. i don't only ask athletes directly, i badger these athletes through the medium of their sponsors. you're right, the slowtwitch forum is not the only way to communicate with an audience of customers. but then, if not slowtwitch, what? it has not been my experience that a large number of these athletes are communicating very efficiently and, throughout the history of this sport, athletes have made the mistake of thinking that their performances on the field of play is solely what they give in consideration of the payment they receive. you would be astounded at the trouble herbert has compiling his top-15 at kona lists.

as an aside, i'll tell you why i think most pros don't communicate on the slowtwitch forum. it's not because they are unfamiliar with slowtwitch, because we've interviewed everyone on your list at least once. it's because they lack technical knowledge about their own products. they're afraid to come here. they're afraid of you all, because you - as an aggregate, the aggregate knowledge of the forum - know more than any of these other pros. therefore, they are intimidated by you, because they're afraid that they'll give you their best advice and you'll come back with something that makes them look silly and unprofessional. therefore, when you see a pro - a jordan rapp, a bjorn andersson, a brandon marsh, a jonas colting - interacting with you, understand it's because these guys are strong enough to absorb what comes their way.

while i may be misunderstanding your point, i don't want to drift too far afield, because i want to answer what questions it is you want to ask. michi weiss approached me directly, and asked me if he could introduce himself to the slowtwitch reader forum community. i said yes, under the condition that he field all questions you may want to ask. if you think i should have said no, you can't address the forum community, i respect your opinion, but i used my best judgment. if melissa hauschildt asks me the same question tomorrow, i'll give her the same answer i gave michi.

here's the conundrum with michi weiss. he is precisely, on paper, the sort of pro you want posting on slowtwitch. he is, personally, giving of himself by nature, and he has a crackerjack understanding of the technical issues of the sport. the problem is that he's been convicted of doping, of cheating, of taking advantage in secret over his competitors and in so doing by defrauding them and the sport. further, while he is belongs in that very small subset of pros who can talk to you with absolute confidence and technical knowhow, he stumbles when it comes to the question of his past intersection with doping. i hope you all get complete and satisfactory answers to the questions you want to ask him, whether it's about his power training or whether it's about your questions that involve his doping. i don't believe, "my case is all in the public domain, you can go back and read it," is enough of an answer, and i don't think you should accept that either. but that's between you and michi, what you'll accept, and what it is he'll deliver. melissa hauschildt and lance armstrong have not agreed to come on slowtwitch and run the gauntlet in front of you people. michi did. here he is. ask your questions.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

 

An former doped athlete still have an advantage. That's it.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/.../10/131027205618.htm

Thanks again for answering questions!

I really appreciate your thoughts on strength training. Is there any insight you can give us on exactly what core work you find most beneficial for your race performance?

Also, I asked earlier in a post that got lost: Do you think the cooler weather leading up to the race had ANY impact on your hydration or nutrition prep leading up to Sunday, when it was very, very hot? Do you think that weather changes leading up to a race really have that much impact at all, or do you think that by that point, it's all in the bank? This especially is interesting from the perspective of someone who trains in a cooler climate and often races in hotter ones.

Great race last weekend! I watched you blow past me on the bike, and I was just AMAZED at how good you were looking.

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If at first you don't succeed, try, try again.
If at first you DO succeed, try to hide your astonishment!

Just to be clear, that article is about steroid use, not blood doping or EPO. Has there been research showing those substances have the same "permanent" effect?

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Team Zoot
2019 Sponsors: Canyon Bikes, Garmin, Smith Optics, Gatorade, Zealios Skin Care & Sun Protection, Speedfill Products, Base Performance, Ottolock, Theragun, Boco Gear, ORR Carbon Wheel Systems, Giddy Up Multisport

That is an EXTREMELY generous conclusion, Zach. :)

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-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
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Hey I hear Nina Kraft trains in Clermont, Florida :)

As an aside, my most beneficial takeaway from this article was the following:

Additionally, the data suggests that strength training when young might be beneficial later in life since the ability to generate new myonuclei is impaired in the elderly.
Future studies should include human muscles and further investigation into the cellular and molecular mechanism for muscle memory.

Totally unrelated to doping, but for us athletes who never doped I can see this being beneficial to the masters athletes especially when it comes to rebuilding muscle mass after hard/long training. It should work out to be an advantage over peers whose bodies don't behave that way.

If we start going out of our way to welcome ex-dopers back and idolize them I don't think it'll end well in this sport either

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Spot on Bjorn. That is why I am a proponent of how Matt Lieto and the Wurtele's took to the social media airwaves to express their concern. Omerta will not exist if culturally our sport speaks out loudly. Age groupers and pro's alike.

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@rhyspencer

It is what it is, take it or leave it, but we are wasting our time tring to detail it more than it already is.

At this point you either forgive and move forward or you don't forgive and still move forward.

I'm sure for business purposes michi needs to say as little as possible about it. You can either take it or leave it, but you can't get blood from a stone.

I personally would shun any business that is my competition if they were found to be giving gifts to potential or current customers (military related, big no-no). I would also want to make sure the customer was fully aware of the business' transgressions. But I wouldn't keep badgering the company if they were found guilty and paid their due, I just would make sure they couldn't affect me negatively in the future.

I see that as being the same in this situation.

I'm much more concerned about the ones that aren't caught and still racing/operating.

Excellent!!! My first thought too.

LOL!

I think social media keeps it much more in the public eye and it's up to the fans to express their willingness to accept the accused or not. Equally so, if all the "cool kids" speak out against the guilty, the fans generally follow. I would hope the reverse is true too.

I think it's a bit harder to hide transgressions with the use of social media now.

Mr. Weiss, do you currently work with Lothar Heinrich, who is closely related to SRM as you are, and who played a major role in Team Telekom doping?

Dan, I wrestle with this issue in a very similar manner as you. I generally believe in redemption and I have items for which I repent daily. However, there are some things you do and you can't go back. This may be one, but yet my mind still tries to sort this out. On the flip side, there has to be a "rule" for sport and probably a 4 year rule would be best.

As for Michi's comments or lack thereof, there may be a larger grey area than many recognize. I know NOTHING of the facts of his situation. However, if he makes any further comments, and depending what those are, he could expose himself to further investigation, punishment, perjury, or a whole gauntlet of issues regardless of how he answers the questions. That may well be why he MUST just let his prior comments stand. I/we may not like it from a human point of view, but from a sport/rules or legal point of view he may have no choice. I'll just choose to respect that even if I don't like that.

Unfortunately, we will have to continue to wrestle with these issues on an ongoing basis. Personally, I think this thread is helpful to that process.

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David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

Maybe it should be the top 10 at Kona, and then the next 5 comes from the first 5 to respond, messaging everyone to begin with. It gives those a chance who are willing to hustle a bit a chance to increase their brand. And thanks for calling up and reporting that tip on the suspected doper.

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Investigation, punishment and perjury that would totally be justified, because he doped.

What I find very frustrating is that Michi who wants to race and be supported, wouldnt even answer my question about what his plans are for when he struggles. Its very forward looking and it goes directly to his mindset as to how he wound up where he did the first time. Athletes who want second chances have to go all in, it's that simple. If he could have told me what his support system is, how he plans to overcome tough races where he might face temptation, etc. I'd certainly be a lot more willing to accept a person like that back into the sport. Instead what we got out of Michi was another Danielson, another Hincapie, another Lance, etc. It's just so damn tiring. It's like A-Rod following Lances USADA playbook against MLB; It's a losing proposition, and the thing they want most, legacy and respect, NEVER comes out of going that route. Ask Ryan Braun. It's time for the NADAs and WTC to have some big "come to jesus" meeting on this stuff if they want pro racing to have any integrity in 10 years when we may well enter the possibility of an era of gene doping.

"Maybe it should be the top 10 at Kona, and then the next 5 comes from the first 5 to respond"

i'll tell you two funny (or tragic) anecdotes, or flactlets, about this. first, there's a directly proportional relationship between how high up you finished and how willing you were to immediately respond to herbert with all the answers to all those questions.

second, and i found this humorous, we ran into folks, esp on the women's side, where we asked something like, "and what tires are you rding?" and the answer was, "i'm not telling you," and we asked why and the answer was, "because i'm not sponsored." and we said, fine, but, that's really not the point. and we explained the point. and that explanation was often just not understood. other times, the answer was X when we clearly see that the pro was using Y. and we would point that out, and the athlete said, "yes, but my sponsor is X and the product didn't come in time so i had to use Y."

to me this goes back to the prior threads about brett sutton's complaint that pros are not paid enough by WTC, and my answer that this may be true, but pros do not / should not be looking at prize money as the big earning opportunity. brett's view is that sponsors are not, as a group, reliable good faith partners. i think they're the most reliable partners. i think all truly professional professionals would agree with me. i don't think jordan rapp has any trouble with SRAM, zipp, specialized, zoot and so forth. i think he views them as honorable partners, and he takes care of them in consideration for that good faith they extend to him.

the fact that herbert was eventually able to get all the data he got speaks to the professionalism of our sport's athletes in general, however there really is a delta between those who understand how value works versus those who don't.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

What strikes me and convinces me that Michi Weiss did dope is...if I was wrongly accused of cheating I would likely fight it until my death and so would thousands of others. Michi doesn't seemingly do this. I would confront every single question thrown at me, present everything 10 x's over to justify my innocence and would then sue for all it was worth the negative effect a wrongly convicted doping allegation has on my life, yet Michi doesn't.

I think it is time to face facts. Choosing to be upfront with ST users is proving more damning than was probably first thought. Any person, company or corporation involved in the use of professional athletes as endorsee's should take a long hard look at themselves before and consider the baggage it brings with it.