Poconos 70.3 was pretty close to that :)

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Rodney
TrainingPeaks | Altra Running | RAD Roller
http://www.goinglong.ca

Isn't this what they do with IM Austria and Challenge Roth?

Yes, the founders where clear on this. Someone should sue WTC because this is unkonastitutional.

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It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

This whole post reminds me of the IMMD winner/champion thread. You race the course you choose just like you race the competition that shows up. Don't like it, don't race it. Move on.

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http://www.TriScottsdale.org

Looks like Bruce's race went tits up regardless...

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-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project

It is IM racing and we all know shit can happen out there...regardless, Bruce deserves his normal spread over the guys chasing him down.

Quick times, they probably didn't a break on the rest pontoon

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Coaching - Future Endurance

There were definitely some strange denizens of the swim today.

I disagree Dev--would expect a more thoughtful response from you.

I'd like to think we'd all embrase a world where there is Tahoe bikes and Choo swims...

with so many races, shouldn't we embrase diversity in courses?

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Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.

I agree that diversity is a great thing and personally i like to do a different race every year just to experience the diversity. The problem however is what happens when one of the disciplines becomes too easy and no longer requires a siginificant (I don't want to use the word 'equal') effort in training or racing? The beauty of the sport is that we all have things we are good at and things we're less good at. For many people the swim is the number one challenge, but it doesn't need to be worked on because they are self proclamed badasses on the bike and run. Courses like this feed that attitude and steer the ironman experience into a direction that becomes more similar to duathlon. Yeah there's a swim but it doesn't mean much, no need to train for it, no big deal. A great race is one where the swim, bike and run all deserve respect. I am far from the world's greatest triathlete but i race to challenge and test myself, and a race with a fast swim due to current would not feel right to me.

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Don't forget to attack!

I am OK with courses being 2.4/112/26.2 and adding difficulty on top of that (not that I want too much as 140.6 is long enough), but my preference is that something that it needs to be 140.6 to be called 140.6/Ironman

I view this discussion as kind of like the difference between a flat and fast local 10K and a very technical cross country 10K. Both are 10K's. But don't call a 9K run a 10K. That's all I am saying. It's not a 2.4 mile swim if you had a 0.6 mile per hour current. Then it is a 1.8 mile swim. As someone said, it would be like running a marathon on an airport conveyor belt.

I personally don't like to claim I did something if I did not, and I prefer that when I buy something they sell me something that I thought I paid for...not some reduced version that was "almost" if you know what I mean. I'd personally like to see a minimum standard that is deemed acceptable for anything that is supposed to conform to some standard measurement if you know what I mean.

I think it is OK to agree to disagree on this point. I'm all for diversity of races, but there needs to be a minimum standard. WTC intentionally having predominantly downriver courses on river courses is a bit of a cop out. We know why and it is because they don't want to risk a substantial part of the field swimming on a treadmill. But then don't put races in venues where you have that scenario.

I know I am in the "hard core" minority on this. People accuse me of supporting WTC, which I generally do, but I also will call them out when they do things that are totally in the interest of business while not keeping the integrity of the sport in mind. These types of scenarios are a slippery slope. Let's have some events with 122 miles bikes and 16 mile runs, because heck, it's still 140.6. You see where this can deteriorate quickly. already some people today were saying, "well the swim was down current but it is made up for by the longer bike". Not exactly. We still need a full 2.4 mile swim. I'm not even the strongest swimmer out there, so it's not like i am adamant about this because I am a fish! I'm adamant because this is like calling a 9K event a 10K.

that sounds right--you should avoid the easy swim races as a result. come do tahoe if you want a challenge....still, I think it's great that some races are easier in each discipline than others...

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Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.

What is the point of the swim, again?
To set up the bike ;0)

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__________________________________________________
Official Polar Ambassador
http://www.google.com/...P7RiWyEVwpunlsc2JtQQ

Do you also subtract the miles on the bike where it's downhill and you can coast if you'd like?

Wasn't close! It was:)

If the bike ends at the same place it finishes, then the net downhill is the same as the net uphill. Not even remotely the same as a swim where the current essentially takes away 1/3 of the distance.

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Taco cat spelled backwards is....taco cat.

Agree, good point

I'm doing Survival of the Mills here in NJ: ~50min of running, ~50 minutes of running, and less than 10 minutes of swimming. Don't ever accuse me of sticking to my strength. :-)

Come on and join us for some diversity.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

If there was a point to point course that is mainly downhills, I would have the same discussion. No issue with coasting downhill if you climbed up on your own. That's the problem with this swim course. It is a bit like taking a chair lift to the top of the Ironman France course and then setting a bike course record coasting most of the way. Or better yet, sitting in a draft pack at IM Florida and bragging about your 5 hour bike split after splitting 5:55 at IMLP.

But the fact that enough of you are talking about this like it is OK just speaks to the general integrity level in the field and WTC can cha ching that all the way to the bank. Put an out and back course in Chattanooga today and half the field does not make the swim cut off (which essentially points to the venue being problematic wrt to putting on a fair race).

Where is Monty when I need him?

I used to kinda feel this way about B2B. But I kinda just feel like, if the race is upfront with it, I'd much rather go with it and for me I put an * by it when I take in said result from this race. I certainly wont take an race result with an aided swim or downhill run the same as a "verified" course.

But at the same time 140.6 IM FL doesn't hold the same as 140.6 IM Tahoe or 140.6 IM L'ville, wasn't near the same as 140.6 IM NYC, yet they are the same distance, so, it's sorta getting to finer details, when you dissect the race, elevation/current/weather, etc.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

My take is that we all accept that some courses are going to be faster than others, that's fine. But from the sounds of it, this swim is a little ridiculous. If I can grab an inner tube and float in it at the swim start, and then just "lazy river" to the swim exit, that's a problem.

By having the swim on a current, The swim becomes different lengths to different people, depending on how fast they swim. Without doing the exact calcs, the FOP swimmer might swim 1.8 miles. The MOP swimmer might have only swum 1 mile. The lazy river guy would have had to swim 0 miles. Not everyone is doing the same course.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

I think that there is a big difference between courses of the same distance, yet different difficulty levels, as opposed to not even doing the distance. I don't care how you argue it, swimming in a current means you didn't cover 2.4 miles.

Spot

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Taco cat spelled backwards is....taco cat.

B2B was my first half, and Placid was my first full. I'm a weak swimmer/ mid-pack finisher and I totally agree with you and Dev.

By having the swim on a current, The swim becomes different lengths to different people, depending on how fast they swim. Without doing the exact calcs, the FOP swimmer might swim 1.8 miles. The MOP swimmer might have only swum 1 mile. The lazy river guy would have had to swim 0 miles. Not everyone is doing the same course.

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I'm not following you here on your swim calculations (cant the same thing then be applied to for instance wind conditions on the bike course throughout the bike course??). I totally get this was a bit ridiculous swim, I keep chuckling when I see the times from all the friends that are posting on fb. Sounds like a fantastic and fast race out there today for most. Like I said, if we all "know" this race is a downhill swim, I sorta just shrug and say cool. This isn't going to suddenly devalue the IM brand. If we are claiming that, that happened when they put 3000 people on a course that was designed for 1600 and now races are filled with draft packs.


ETA: Now I'm not saying that these races that are like this are on equal as others. What I'm saying is, if we all agree it's an downhill swim, the race essentially acknowledges it, I don't see much harm/foul in it. Everyone and their mother knows B2B is 99% of the time going to be an aided swim. We just accept it. As I said, this downhill swim doesn't devalue the IM brand anymore than the draft packs that show up at 95% of IM events.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

No you did cover 2.4 miles, you just don't like that it's aided that much. The same for running a marathon straight downhill (which is why records have to have certain qualifying standards for it to count, etc). You "cover" the correct distance, you just do it in a gimmicky way. But yes I can argue that you do in fact cover 2.4 miles, we just don't like when we do it in a "aided" way.

ETA: My whole point has been, if this race is going to stay around (and I don't see why it wont), we all know/acknowledge it's a gimmicky swim. The purist can bitch about it, but I don't think it devalues the brand, or cant say they covered the distance. I think we all just accept that these courses come with an * in the back of our mind when we talk about this race (and races like B2B). More of a "cool story bro".

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com