His Kona slot or the guy in 4th's? Was his drafting worth 4 minutes since that's what he beat the guy by.

 


He does write a monthly column for Runner Triathlete News so lets see if he address this issue there.

Bets on if he will or not?




Yes, sadly he did take his Kona slot. I confronted him right after that and:

1-I invited him to this thread to explain himself
2-That he show integrity and pass on his slot since he earned it through blatant cheating




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Once, I was fast. But I got over it.

Dont't know if this was mentioned already, but as far as a techno solution goes, how about drones? Availability and price are coming down, one person with a few screens sitting in a van somewhere could monitor a pretty lengthy stretch of road, particularly if they got up to 100 ft altitude, you could see where the problem spots were.

Again, if the point is to really focus on the hard core wheel suckers, and effective monitoring is related to amount of officials, drones could be a force maximizer in a way that makes economic sense for the race promotors?

As a personal rant, I absolutely hate drafting, and really wonder sometimes about the thought processes involved, especially in an IM event, supposed to be a test of personal grit, depths to which you can push yourself, etc.. Really, WTF is wrong with those cheaters? And it's gotten like doping-someone has an amazing result, and I wonder how real it is...

I have to admit, in my fantasies I see drones armed with indeliable red dye just blasting the blatant offenders. I finished 6th AG this year-2 slots awarded-really missed the time cushion I usually get from swimming-probably would've been substantial this year-and the #1 guy in my AG had a smokin' bike and run ( not implying he did anything wrong) but I sure would like the assurance that he is as awesome as his results indicate.


Thoughts?

Go away Obama.

I'd definitely say he stole the guy in 4th place's Kona slot.

I'll make a stab at some quick bike math. Let's say he biked the race at 200W. Just a SWAG. His bike split was 5:00:38. He drafted me, the 17% savings, up my ass drafting, for approximately 10 miles. After some quick Excel-fu, I found the following.

I calculated a 1:04 savings just in those 10 miles along w/ riding at 166W vs 200W. Now for the remaing 100 miles, he can either go back up to 200W and have more for the run, OR, override a bit to average back at 200W and run about the same as if he did not draft. Either of those scenarios could easily account for the 3:48 advantage he had over 4th. Only 2:44 needed to come from somewhere else, as he gained 1:04 from me. And trust me, I was riding hard, I averaged 227W befoere my computer froze at mile 75, but I was around 255-260 the 1st hour! Yes, I overrode that section and he received a free-fucking-ride to my dismay.

I'm still miffed by the following that he said to me when I called him out the 1st time at mile 3 or 4, "Don't worry, I'm not in your AG". Of course, he denied that too at awards.

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Sub-9 IM. Navy SeaBee deep sea diver. Can Do!

If you want a techno solution, the answer is not drones or GPS. It is proximity sensors placed on each bike that can identify the direction and distance of all other sensors within range. All bikes track this data at sub-second intervals and store it, and then once all are loaded, the entire bike leg could theoretically be replayed precisely. Drafting can be algorithmically determined based on the data. Include GPS data in the sensor as well, and the entire bike could be replayed on a map, but you wouldn't need that in order to determine drafting violations.

Such a device does not exist, and certainly not at the low cost point, low weight, and low battery usage that would be needed. But, it is theoretically possible. Think of the sensors in Kinect. You can definitely have sensors that can sense distance and direction of nearby sensors.

The question is, are there other use cases? Because triathlon draft-busting is not a viable use-case.

"I'd definitely say he stole the guy in 4th place's Kona slot."

How do you know the guy who finished 4th didn't draft as well?

How do you know I didn't draft? Or all the other KQ'ers for that matter?

Seriously?!?!

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Sub-9 IM. Navy SeaBee deep sea diver. Can Do!

"How do you know I didn't draft? Or all the other KQ'ers for that matter? "

Well, I'm sure some of them did.

I know you didn't draft because nobody on ST is a drafter.

No, no, I am a totally drafter. :o)

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Nice. after 200+ posts on this thread, you come on here and these couple of types of posts are your contribution?

I see you're in Tom's AG. Obviously rivals, maybe friends. I hope this isn't your clever way to defend him by lightheartedly accusing ALL of ST, me included, of drafting.

Why don't you reach out to him for an explanation instead of being a wise ass?

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Sub-9 IM. Navy SeaBee deep sea diver. Can Do!

"Why don't you reach out to him for an explanation instead of being a wise ass?"

Indeed...tell you what I wouldn't do...go to a race like IMFL which is known to have rampant drafting and get all indignant if someone drafted off of me. The outrage that happens each year when someone starts essentially this exact thread is comical.

As far as accusing all of ST including you of drafting, well, if someone does IMFL and brags about their time, I take it with a grain of salt.

"if someone does IMFL and brags about their time, I take it with a grain of salt."


What did you think of Starky's bike split last year?

"Indeed...tell you what I wouldn't do...go to a race like IMFL which is known to have rampant drafting and get all indignant if someone drafted off of me."

First of all - IMFL hasn't had rampant drafting in a few years. Second - Why does it matter what race it was? Wouldn't you be upset if an athlete sat on your wheel for an extended period of time - in any race?

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Jimmy
http://www.Riccitello.com

Would my original post have made any difference if it was Lanza or Lake Placid? I didn't complain about massive packs drafting in peletons. It was one, very specific person and situation. Could have been any race. ST would have clearly figured out which race if I had left that detail out.

Who's bragging about their time from IMFL? Sounds like you're still implying I have something to do with drafting...but you won't just come out and say it. Newsflash. My 2010 IMFL time of 8:54. 2nd out of the water. 2nd off the bike. 2nd at the finish. Couldn't have drafted if I wanted. Beat by a (at the time) pro, but taking time off (as a pro), but still a pro, although racing AG.

Again, reach out to your buddy Tom. Heard he was at Lifetime Fitness today in Dallas area bragging in the locker room about his IMFL performance.

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Sub-9 IM. Navy SeaBee deep sea diver. Can Do!

Thanks Jimmy, this response makes me the most hopeful I've been all year. Cam is justifiably upset and tying to make a difference. AndyF adds a drafting CdA reduction reminder in this thread http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...post=5324508#5324508

For perspective on the late starters, I signed up for IMFL shortly before the race, which made me almost the last rider to start under the day's TT format. My bike split is faster than the average, but I can't think of a way to quantify how many people I passed. I wasn't passed by anyone, or any packs. I probably passed about five packs of around 10 riders each that were working together intentionally. The big packs are extremely dangerous to pass. They are unpredictable, inherently hazardous to approach, and fill the whole lane on an open road. I saw no indication they would break up when I asked them to. The riders in small clusters I passed seemed less concerted, more surprised that someone would call them out, and could at least be passed safely. They seemed to break up when asked. The front rider would frequently thank me for getting the person or persons off his wheel.

Amen to that.

Sounds like a good idea, but...Sensors would measure distance from sensor to sensor, while drafting zone is measured from tire to tire. How to figure out the difference?

"First of all - IMFL hasn't had rampant drafting in a few years."

Really? I've never been there and am only basing my opinion on race reports. Out of curiosity, how many drafting penalties were handed out this year and how does that compare to previous years?

"Wouldn't you be upset if an athlete sat on your wheel for an extended period of time - in any race?"

Sure...which is why I would avoid flat races with 2680 racers.

PS Why aren't drafting penalties noted in the results? This would seem like an easy first step in identifying habitual drafters.

Change the rule. It's not like eyeballs are as good as a tape measurer anyway. Hell, they change the rule in Kona to be reflector to reflector because it's easier and more accurate for officials. If technology existed that could accurately do this based on a sensor-to-sensor distance, then it would be a small rule change for that to be how it's measured. The bigger issue is getting the technology developed.

Nothing can be done about it. It just sucks when the bike is your strength and you are pulling a train just to get ran around after t2

Plenty of athletes at this year's IMFL have stated in this thread that drafting was not rampant. Unlike you, I was there, and saw zero rampant drafting. Zero large groups.

170 penalties (most for drafting) were called this year, trending down for the past five years.

Fast times at IMFL are possible without drafting.

Blatant drafting happens at small races, too. The scenario that prompted this thread could just have easily happened at the Timbuktoo Tri .

To address an earlier post of yours: I work for WTC and I care about enforcing drafting - even if I don't always succeed. I was hired by WTC to help minimize drafting. It is a fact that WTC cares about minimizing drafting. Our efforts in FL (and many other races) have gone unnoticed by you, because you've never been there. But efforts have been made, and athletes who attend have noticed.

I hope that you consider these facts when forming future opinions about IMFL and WTC.

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Jimmy
http://www.Riccitello.com

Jimmy have you considered painting a set of lines over different parts of the course that are seperated by 7 meters as a reminder to athletes what that distance actually is. Similar to the reflectors that pros are told to use in Kona. Obviously they can not be over the entire course, but may just be a good way to calibrate everyone including the marshalls to what is legal.

Jimmy....thank you for your hard work and for taking time to respond here on ST. A lot of us do appreciate it!!!

I am very glad to here that WTC takes drafting seriously and works hard to catch the cheaters. I'm certain that you can tell by many of the posts in this thread; most of the concern/anger is directed towards those in pace lines, pelotons or 6" off someone's wheel. That leads me to one question ......... are there any discussions within WTC to increase the penalty for blatant drafting?

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Everywhere in the United States, the dashed lines on the roadways are ten meters apart. So are reflectors. Thus, the same thing that applies in Kona applies in Clearwater.