Well as Dan has explained, you are wrong again. Have you really read that rule and been confused by what you ought to do in a race?

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It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

Of course the gorilla was pacing him, thus rendering unauthorized assistance. I'm sure the OP looked over, saw a gorilla trotting along and said, "alright, c'mon ape. 6:30, let's hit it!"

As an aside, at KS 70.3 a few years ago it was hot as balls and some little girls were squirting competitors with water guns on the run course. I didn't ask them to squirt me, but I didn't scream at them to put the f'ing water guns away either. Having digested this thread in full, now I feel guilty that I wasn't penalized.

For the first 10-15 pages of this thread, I found your responses entertaining and likable. Take a rest day before you burn out or hurt yourself.

Cheater! You must repent your sins!

Only kidding. I'm guilty of this too...

@TexasTarabay
@bsrtri

Rewinding the tape is fine, but you can't change what happened earlier in the tape. So what is the unauthorized assistance here if not "pacing"? I've gone through your posts and there is nothing you have discussed other than pacing.

The gorilla didn't give him food. The gorilla didn't give him drink. The gorilla didn't give him equipment. The gorilla didn't give him support. The gorilla didn't give him a replacement bicycle or bicycle parts.

"Support" is not defined under the rules and is vague at best. Are you arguing that running alongside somebody is "support"? If so, why is that support? Is it because it constitutes a form of cheering? The OP did say that the gorilla was trying to get him pumped up. If so, then you have completely eliminated cheering from the sport of triathlon. If not are you saying it is the combination of running next to somebody and cheering that person on that rises to the level of "support"? If so, why is doing that for 10 yards acceptable, but doing that for 90 yards (or whatever) is not?

Rules have to be read to make sense. Rule 3.4(d) gives 6 types of unauthorized assistance. It can't be possible that cheering was meant to be eliminated from the rules so that can't be whatever "support" was meant to be. That leaves you with pacing, which is the only that has been discussed. With pacing inherently being running, it would make no sense to say that "support" was meant to include another form of running.

I understand the concept of discretion calls, but it is a pretty poor use of discretion to say a guy in a gorilla suit running next to somebody for 80 yards (20 seconds at a 7:00 minute pace) is pacing.

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team website: http://snappletriteam.com/

team blog: http://snappletriteam.com/?page_id=10

Maybe I should have posted that part on he "Dirty Secrets" thread.

The funny thing about this thread is that I know both Mike and the Gorilla very well. The Gorilla put all of about 10 seconds thought into his actions on Saturday and mike was concentrating on coming out of T2 and just imagine all of the hours that have been spent analyzing this. There was no plan of pacing - It was Macon, GA - In June (hot as hell) and a dude dressed in a Gorilla suit trying to have fun. either way - I have enjoyed this thread!

I know this thread has degenerated into the absurd but a direct correlary would be if one competitor had someone on the run misting them with water. Incidentally at the Badwater ultramarathon one year a competitor had rigged up a plastic enclosure with cool air and misting nozzles connected to a vehicle, for the runner to run in. They were told to dismantle it even though it wasn't specifically against the rules.

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Styrrell

"So what is the unauthorized assistance here if not "pacing"?"

that is the unauthorized assistance. i'm just saying that the rule infraction is unauthorized assistance. that's the rule. the OP broke a rule, that's the rule he broke. pacing is a component of the rule.

"Support" is not defined under the rules and is vague at best."

unauthorized assistance is defined under the rules and it is very explicit, with explicit examples. it's a lot more defined and granular than obscenity or hard cor pornography, nevertheless a supreme court justice thought it quite legal and fine even with the standard of knowing when he sees it.

"Is it because it constitutes a form of cheering?"

do you compete? i ask because some people on this forum aren't competitors, they are significant others, or manufacturers, or something other than a competitor. i can't imagine anyone who competes not understanding the value of pacing.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

 Pacing is a term of art in running. It is using a person to run a desired pace. Like having a runner run the first 13.1 at London Marathon in 1 hour and 2 minutes or something. Before a penalty can be assessed under 3.4(d) for pacing the act of pacing must occur. The mere fact that a person is running next to somebody else is not going fit the definition of pacing. It very well could be pacing, but it ver well could not be pacing.

So back to my original point, how are you defining pacing? And why are the actions here included in that definition?

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team website: http://snappletriteam.com/

team blog: http://snappletriteam.com/?page_id=10

Are we really talking about pacing here???? The Gorilla ran next to Mike ( A Kona qualifier and had one of the fastest run splits of the day) for all of 20 seconds. This had absolutely nothing to do with the outcome of the race.

The mere fact that a person is running next to somebody else is not going fit the definition of pacing. It very well could be pacing, but it ver well could not be pacing.


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I'm assuming we are talking about an competitor and non-competitor, because it *seems* it's just easiest to make the point that ANY type of running/jogging from a non-competitor next to a competitor should be considered pacing.

Now, do I think the gorilla "paced" the runner? Yes to how the rules apply "pacing", but do I think it was "pacing" in the sense of what the rules is trying to forbid? No, or atleast I doubt in this type of instance the competitor really gained much from it. Which to my point, I would hope/think some discretion occurs in these types of events.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

"Pacing is a term of art in running. It is using a person to run a desired pace."

bingo. there you go. you answered your own question. pacing is an infraction not because it's about cheering, or comeraderie, or to combat loneliness, or to balance the wear on the highway. it's because if you have a pacer you will run faster, and it's not because of aerodynamics. it's because, whether your pacer is a swimmer in the next lane over, or a runner who's shoulder you're on, or a cyclist 10m or even 15m in front of you, or 3m to the side of you if that were legal, if you can focus on things other than the pace, and have the pacer take upon himself the load of setting and keeping a proper pace, you'll go faster. this is why pacing is illegal, and whether the pacer is in his a gorilla suit, a brooks brothers suit, or his birthday suit pacing is illegal because of a benefit everyone understands.

"So back to my original point, how are you defining pacing?"

if somebody is in any position to assume the work of setting the pace for another, so that the other person can concentrate on matters other than pace setting, that's pacing. a party can legally do this if he's not subordinating his race in order to help you with yours. but if this person is sacrificing or subordinating his or her own race performance in order to aid yours, that's pacing. that's unauthorized assistance. that's a penalty. and it should be a penalty. doesn't matter how the pacer is attired.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

It seems like we are making progress. We are in agreement on the definition of pacing so applying that to this situation where's the pacing?

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team website: http://snappletriteam.com/

team blog: http://snappletriteam.com/?page_id=10

Please, can't we do BETTER than that? why must anything even slightly scandalous be dubbed "Something-Gate?"

I mean there's a perfectly good film called "Iron Monkey" and a rockin' old Stones song called "Monkey Man" ... surely we can work with that?

How about "A.P.E. = Assistance Provided Egregiously?"

Planet Fitness of the Apes: No Grunting, No Groaning, No Pacing, No Poo-Flinging

And why must "Fear" ALWAYS be followed by "Loathing?" Unless you're Hunter Thompson and you're enhancing your OWN franchise/trademark, just let it GO!!!

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

Dan, putting aside the technicalities for a moment, if you were the ref out there, would you make the call to levy the penalty for the infraction?

There is some discretion involved in applying any penalty. Us Monday morning QB's (well, we are up to Wed now), on this Gorilla-gate thread are covering 2 topics....the first is whether an infraction technically occurred, the second is whether the infraction needed to be penalized.

No doubt you have spent a ton of time with Charlie and Jimmy over time. We all know that they don't call every penalty they see. I think this particular call was unneccessary based only on what I have read in the this Gorilla-gate thread. I'm more than happy to accept that techically there was an infraction. I just don't THINK it needed to be called. It would be enough for the official to tell the gorilla to get the hell off the course and then call it done.

Exactly - And how is what happened on Saturday any different than what happens in Kona every year when Craig, Chrissie or Macca grab flag from someone running next to them??? Its not! It was a spontaneous act that had no impact on the outcome of the race.

Based on those definitions, I have a hard time accepting that the monkey man was pacing and that the OP was guilty of any cheating.

The presence of the monkey was neutral at best and counter productive at worst. I doubt the monkey changed the pace or even set the pace. (The neutral.) He may have smiled, laughed, or talked to the monkey, thus slowing his pace. The monkey was more than likely a distraction to the race at hand (The Counter Productive.)

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

How about "ReferApe?" Someone got screwed by an Official thanks to a Gorilla

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

I was curious what 15 seconds would equate to in terms of distance so I calculated it out for a typical FOP/MOP age-grouper at a 70.3/140.6. Assume they are doing a 7:45 min/mile pace. That would equate to just under 57 yards before it would trigger a penalty assuming of course that is the unwritten standard.

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Train to race. Race to win.

It's not like they're stealing a kids' Mickey Mouse doll

http://www.iol.co.za/...1527064#.Ua9TTnfZ6l6

Ok, that's another thread for another day

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

This has been great. Hopely Charlie will be looking into this rule to either help define it better or change it for the future. My intent was never to cheat Tarabay (or any of the others who did not get gigs) It was only to have some fun and get the crowd going. I was man enough to stick my head out here and take it (thanks for heel striking beat down) I wish that the offical did the same. Not to get bashed but to explain his ruling. But I can understand why he would not.

But to keep with Slowman movie references.....
Oh, gee, thanks, Dave. Bang-up job so far. Extortion, coercion. You'll pardon me if I ask you to kiss my pucker. The same fuckers that rounded us up and sank us into this mess are gonna bail me out? Fuck you. You think you can catch that official? You think a guy like that comes this close to getting caught and sticks his head out? If he comes up for anything, it will be to get rid of me. After that... my guess is you'll never hear from him again.

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Mad%20Gorilla

Mile #1 was a 6:42 pace... per garmin

@TexasTarabay
@bsrtri

What did the gorilla's Garmin have as his pace?

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float , hammer , and jog

Pacing is clearly against the rules, but the question is was the gorilla actually pacing this guy. To me, the answer is clearly "no," so I consider this a bad call under the rules. Simply running next to someone isn't pacing them. Pacing requires an intent to run at a certain speed to help a participant maintain that speed. From the facts we've seen here that just wasn't the gorilla's goal, so this wasn't pacing.

Bad calls happen, so the ref deserves a break. But at the same time, being the victim of a bad call sucks too, so the OP deserves a chance to yell and scream and kick some dirt.

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http://snappletriteam.com/