Yeah this guy is definitely a great official. Handing out penalties for shoes being a bit out of line and going to sit on his ass in a tent after a few of the athletes got on the run course. Obviously committed to excellence.

Wooooaaahhhh.....did Lance show up dresses as a gorilla and was running heel striking in Newtons now that his Nike gig is passe? Biggest news on this thread!

Correct, I broke the rules.. a gorilla ran next to me for more than 15 seconds ... but the issue with me is how inconsistent the officials are... gig me BECAUSE I was in contention for a top spot and overlook all others that are not.

Since you are the voice of experience here, what should the OP have done when the gorilla started running next to him? Probably you will say "stop running with me or I will be DQ'd". So, let's say the gorilla ignores that and continues to run along side the OP. What should he do then?

I apologize for beating a dead horse here, but I have asked this question several times throughout this thread and have yet to get an answer. I would like you to give a specific answer as to what his next action should be.

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"Honestly, triathlon is a pussified version of duathlon on that final run."- Desert Dude

That has been answered ad nauseum on the thread. I have a suspicion that what got the OP dinged is not the Ape...it was the communication with the Ape. I was not there - I certainly do not know. However, the many posts by folks who have stated what they did with their families stand and are in clear English.

Maybe if there is a video we could cut this up...but to date there is none. The Marshall made a call - that call stands.

Another thing - I am betting the place or the ability of the offender never not once ever crossed the mind of the official. I have never ever ever seen an official give a penalty out of spite to take a finishing position. To even infer as much is ignorant.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGRNHiMN9ZI

He should yell: "You are not my mother" in a loud voice and run to a police station.

You forgot the "Bloody kneed chick/Race bandit boyfriend" from last year. Unless someone else already said that in the 4add'l pages of comments that I haven't gotten to yet.

This thread is EPIC.

Ad nauseum? Please humor me, then, and answer my question. What should a person do in a situation where someone is running beside them and won't stop?

I'm not arguing whetehr the call stands. Obviously it does. I'm asking a specific question.

I have inferred nothing of the sort.

Please answer the question. Thank you.

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"Honestly, triathlon is a pussified version of duathlon on that final run."- Desert Dude

That's as good an answer as any other that has been presented. :-)

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"Honestly, triathlon is a pussified version of duathlon on that final run."- Desert Dude

The rule is against pacing, Dan. I am a bit unclear what you are arguing. Is running alongside anyone at all pacing? That seems to be what you are saying. If so, doing it for 10 yards is pacing and against the rules and every time you do it the racer should be penalized. If you aren't saying that, then how can anyone possibly draw the line whether it be 90 yards or 250 yards where it changes from "running alongside someone" to "pacing"?

From the evidence that is in this thread it is impossible for anyone to argue that the gorilla was pacing Mr. Tarabay. Your analogy about drunk driving makes no sense. Mr. Tarabay had no idea that the gorilla was going to run next to him. The gorilla said he had no idea he was going to do until he did. It just isn't a meditated decision. Now it sounds like you make plans to run alongside people, but you shouldn't confuse your actions with those of Mr. Tarabay.

What's the solution for Mr. Tarabay? Does he stop racing because someone is running next to him? Does he physically attack the person for running next to him?

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team website: http://snappletriteam.com/

team blog: http://snappletriteam.com/?page_id=10

Stop asking the tough questions. And don't expect an answer. Just more rambling about drunk driving and how it was back in the day.

Who has not raced and not been in a moment where they knew a potential penalty may be assessed? The more participants we get the more opportunities we get to be "out of the zone". On the bike courses it is getting harder and harder to ride clean - to the point that many decide to disregard the rules all together. I for one am a fan of NO mirrors on bike or helmets...they just let you look out for the officials. A Rardar detector of sorts.

I myself have been wheel to wheel with people blocking courses (yelling at them) and praying I dont get tagged. I have given penalties and been then flipped off by competitors for the same.

There is discretion. I am more than certain that the official in this case used it...the evidence is all there.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGRNHiMN9ZI

Races can request exceptions when applying for sanctioning. USAT must approve them. However, I don't think the USAT rules prohibit family and friends crossing the finish line with you. At least I couldn't find anything in the current rules.

Good thing you didn't put money on that bet...

Ignorant is a strong word. Mr Charlie Chawford told me yesterday that the guys leading the race are subject to a higher letter of the law because they are competing for overall positions and are easily exposed. He is the rule maker and king of the throne in terms of USAT officials. So is he the ignorant one? Or am I for repeating it?

As has been said over and over and over...TELL THEM TO STOP. This advice has now been given by former Pro's, current Pro's, AG ers, Elite AGers and me.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGRNHiMN9ZI

Dev, I wonder if you would ever issue a penalty for pacing as a ref -- as a practical matter.

Your test is (quoting you):

As I said in another post, pretty well across all sports, the first 2 filters as a ref are:

1. Is a competitive advantage being gained? Yes or No?
2. Is there is a safety issue arising from the infraction?Yes or No?

Ok, here are two scenarios for you. First, if you see a non-competitior join a racer for 20-30 seconds at the 5k mark of the run in a IM, would you conclude 20-30 seconds is nothing in an IM run, so therefore no competitive advantage, and thus, no penalty?

Second, same as first scenario, but the non-competitor hops on a bike and does the same thing at the 10k, 15k, 20k, 25k, 30k, 35k, and 40k marks of the IM run. How would you feel now, not a ref (because a ref is not likely to see this), but say an AG competitor chasing the racer for the last Kona spot? Would you feel that the other racer was getting a competitive advantage? Personally, knowing where my head has been in an IM run (albeit never close to a Kona spot), I'd think it is a big help to have someone run with me, encourage me, and give me company even for 20-30 seconds every 5k.

If you feel the second scenario should be discouraged, the problem is this: since refs cannot be on the course following every athlete, the only way to discourage the second scenario is to call a penalty when you see the first scenario. That seems to be the USAT policy. I take it you disagree.

Going further, I really cannot imagine a ref in any sport applying your first rule (no competitive advantage). Is there any sport where your first rule is followed as a general rule like you propose?

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It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

"I am a bit unclear what you are arguing"

then perhaps go back and read my posts again, or have someone explain it to you.

"What's the solution for Mr. Tarabay? Does he stop racing because someone is running next to him? Does he physically attack the person for running next to him?"

how long have you been doing triathlons? it really isn't that hard. my first triathlon was in 1978. during these 35 years i've never personally experienced, nor have i ever seen, nor have i ever heard of, somebody pacing a competitor against that competitor's wishes. so, you're either trolling, or your breathtakingly out of touch with what happens on a race course, in which case i'm certain i have no satisfactory answer for you.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

"Drunk driving is a much more serious matter not to be taken lightly. IMO that's not a fair comparison/analogy."

analogies do not connote moral equivalency, rather they are scalable teachings used to demonstrate concepts. most reasonable, educated people who are interested in knowing, understand this. i expect you are reasonable and educated.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

ATTENTION: we now interupt this regularly scheduled programming to bring you the following awesome thread....

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...;;page=unread#unread

The purpose of my post was to highlight what the rule actually prohibited. Let me see if I can try that again in way that makes more sense for you.


Rule 3.4(d) prohibits pacing. That is the sum and total of the rule. Apparently there is an Official's Manual, which is published for race officials to assist officials in interpreting the rules. As quoted earlier in this thread the Official's Manual allows pacing for up to 15 seconds before an official should assess a penalty. Now the Official's Manual is really irrelevant as it does not establish the rules. Under the rules pacing someone for 1 second would be violation, but under the Official's Manual that isn't a violation. That really is neither here nor there, but that is the situation.

The key word here is pacing. That is the threshold before receiving a penalty. In running, pacing is running a desired speed. I was watching the Pre Classic over the weekend. Some of the races had pacers in them. For example in the men's mile, a pacer was hired to run a 60 second opening lap. It is not uncommon for the big marathons to have pacers that are hired to run the first 13.1 miles or whatever distance in X amount of time.

Under 3.4(d) what is prohibited is pacing a competitor. So here, for there to be a penalty, the gorilla would have to have been running X speed for the benefit of Mr. Tarabay. Say Mr. Tarabay has a tendency to go out to fast in runs and the gorilla was there to set a 7:00 min/mile pace to stop him from going to fast at the beginning. That's pacing. That's a penalty. Say the gorilla ran kept running with him and slowly increased the pace over the course of 5 miles and Mr. Tarabay followed the gorilla. That's pacing. That's a penalty. That isn't what happened here. The gorilla ran next to him for a short period of time as he exited transition. No pacing, just next to him.

Simply running alongside somebody isn't pacing them. It's just that -- running along somebody. Now if the rule was that you aren't allowed to run next to somebody or that you can only run along somebody for X period of time or X distance and the gorilla was next to Mr. Tarabay for longer than that period there would be a penalty. That didn't happen here so no penalty.

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team website: http://snappletriteam.com/

team blog: http://snappletriteam.com/?page_id=10

Mr Slowman... Reasonable and educated are both relative terms.

I understand the concept of removing oneself from any circumstances that could have a poor result. However, drunk driving could end in a fatality. Being paced by a gorilla suit ends with a really sweet story. Lets compare apples to apples.

By the way we met at the slowtwitch gathering in Kona last year. (Kona drop #7)

That is not true.

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It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

OK -- fair enough. For the context of this discussion it is the sum and total of the rule.

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team website: http://snappletriteam.com/

team blog: http://snappletriteam.com/?page_id=10

When I first races Kona is 2007 (implication multiple Kona drops) my wife stepped off the curb of the sidewalk on Hualalai around mile 7 or so just to give me some moral support and I immediately told her not to run along with me as it was a rules violation. This was only a scant 18 months since my first race (backdoor look how fast I am brag) and somehow I knew enough to obey the rule. If my wife was wearing the gorilla suit the outcome would have been the same.

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-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project

just, if you don't mind that we rewind this tape, i wrote that this is "unauthorized assistance." you corrected me, telling me no, it is not. rather, that the rule allegedly broken is pacing. you write here that, "Rule 3.4(d) prohibits pacing. That is the sum and total of the rule." look, i'm happy to engage. i'll answer any question you want, if it's in goodwill. but here is the rule, straight out of the rulebook:

Article 3.4d. Unauthorized Assistance.
"No participant shall accept from any person (other than a race official) physical assistance in any form, including food, drink, equipment, support, pacing, a replacement bicycle or bicycle parts, unless an express exception has been granted and approved, in writing, by USA Triathlon. The receipt of information regarding the progress, split times, or location of other competitors on the race course shall not be considered the acceptance of unauthorized assistance. Any violation of this section shall result in a variable time penalty."

notice those two words in bold right after 3.4d. the violation is for unauthorized assistance, and pacing is one component of that. i helped write some of these rules, or wrote them outright. i wrote or helped write about a third of USAT's bylaws. so, i'm not an expert, i'm not the ultimate authority, but i'm pretty square on what the rules say.

all that aside, the answer i can give you is this, because this has come up many times in articles i've written, and in threads and posts on the forum: the key here is race ambition. whether you're in the race, as a competitor, or whether you're jumping in and running alongside a friend, the question is whether you are in good conscience, in good faith, executing your own race according to your own race ambition. are you racing the race in such a way so as to secure the highest best place for yourself.

so, if you start off as a male pro and then you slow down to wait for a female pro who is your wife, sister, girlfriend, and you race the entire bike leg one place in front or behind her, no, sorry, you're not racing your own race, you're racing your loved one's race. if you're male 40-44 and you slow down so that you can pace your wife, female 40-44, you're providing unauthorized assistance.

and, no, i can't prove it, absolutely, categorically. sue me. if i'm officiating, i'm penalizing your ass if i see it. if you go post your whine on an internet forum i'm going to laugh at you. furthermore, now i'm going to closely watch you next time, so you'd better not be within two counties of your wife or girlfriend or i'll penalize your ass yet again. and hers.

yes, there are marathons where you have a specific person, in a clown outfit, or a zebra outfit, or naked, or carrying a sign, whatever, that has 2:40 tattooed on his chest and his back, and another guy with 2:50 written on him, so that people who're trying to run a specific time have that pace established. but that's running. this is triathlon. so don't ask me about what happens on some other sport. i'm explaining to you the rules of THIS sport, in THIS country, if we're talking about the united states and its natl gov body.

yes, it's a judgment call. knowing that, i would say your best play is to not do anything that might, in the judgment of the official, seem awfully like pacing. this is not hard to do.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman