Based on this concept, dropping the 14 cog, the low limit would need to be adjusted out to keep the chain on but the high limit would stay roughly the same?

Yes, roughly the same, but it may need to be fine tuned.

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And make sure your liability insurance is as good as it gets.

All done! seems to work well. Shifts smoothly, even on the 105 cassette. I will add that the main adjustment had to be done on the low limit screw but very little on the high side. I'm pleased.
Thank you for the input and help.

Great to hear, hopefully it saved you a bundle.

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And make sure your liability insurance is as good as it gets.

On a cassette? Why?

I was commenting on the idea of someone having a business that shaves material from a drivetrain component and then sells to others.

Yes I know. What is the danger?

Probably just a cassette failure, but personally, I would go with the DSW hack if you need to. I fundamentally don't agree with taking material from drivetrain components. If the cassette does fail in the heat of battle, then you takes your chances. Things are engineered for a reason. I have history with the bad years of "drillium".

Hard to say what could happen, but worse case the remaining metal fails and the last cog goes into the spokes, and the wheel jams as you make that shift and you go over the bars. This seems like the absolute worst case. Risk should be really low since there is almost no side to side/lateral forces that would cause the remaining metal to fail. Almost all forces are in the direction of the chain other than when the chain moves left to right or right to left (if you view the bike from the back wheel) during a shift. How many Newtons is that force. It must be really low. It is basically the force in a hand operated click being transmitted through the cable to the derailleur. It's really low.

Oh yeah, to reply to your other question, you're likely correct that you would notice nothing. But it does not make sense to me to do something intentionally to put the bike out of symmetry. There are reasons why engineers go through all these shenanigans to engineer things properly. Perhaps doing things that are fundamentally wrong from a tolerance perspective on something as critical as drivetrain does not sit well with me. I think doing things like rigging on a between the aero bar bottle holder with tie wraps is fine as it is not fundamental to the integrity of the structure/drive train.

From my understanding it basically only works with some Shimano cassettes where you have the last 3 riveted. At that point you mill about 1.8mm out of a 1.5cm or so piece of metal. For sure you can't do it with sram or campy

Not really sure but I think the piece that mates to the hub body is steel. Milling a bit out shouldn't be an issue, but there are always unknowns with altering products and voiding warrantee (IE Old P2 drilling top tube for cables etc)

Maurice

Such a strange answer.....on the one hand, its no big deal to remove material from a cassette, on the other hand you are uncomfortable with a wheel out of dish by a mm or two....am i the only one to see the contradiction?

Likely ok if you're doing it yourself and for yourself.
But doing it for others as a business adds a whole different level of risk and liability.


Fyi, for ultegra, it is actually aluminum alloy. For DA, it is carbon composite.

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It is not really a contradiction. Look at the direction of forces. If your wheel is not centered, it is just bad for riding dynamics. You may not notice it, but it is still an out of equilibrium bike on each pedal stroke. A bike with a free hub with metal removed will still work correctly on each pedal stroke provided the remaining material holds the cogs in place. Right to left shifting forces looking down at the cassette, are so low, it would be really tough to break through the metal with the minimal newtons of force from a hand shift.

Are you saying that you can get it actually correctly centered with new non drive side spacers and with a 36.75 mm freehub body on the drive side....or you need to do all that, (thus converting the axle to 131 mm) and also dish. I can't see things working without doing everything and dishing the wheel. At this point it's a full 11 speed set up as if new from the factory

By the way, I won't be personally shaving away any metal from a free hub body, but if done right, the entire bike will work properly as long as there is no catastrophic failure. Chances of the latter should be really low.

I did that with my RS80-C50 wheels when I converted my road bike to 11-speed Ultegra Di2. Works perfectly. There's plenty of metal remaining; I've no concerns about the freehub failing.

There may be some confusion here. Above, the idea was floated about milling down a cassette body (not a freehub body).

Milling down a cassette body may not be hazardous, but it may not solve your problem, as the cassette body may end up, in some cases, rubbing on the hub.

Milling down an AL freehub body however is not a super good idea either. After modification, those do have a history of failure, not from RD shifting forces, but from the load placed on the body by torquing down the cassette lockring.

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so the quick answer is that if it does not fail when you torque down the lockring then you are likely fine. Is that a fair assumption? I also THINK that some of the Mavic 10 speed free hubs should be long enough to accept 10 cogs because, on my Mavic Ksyrium wheels, I use a wider spacer after the last 10 speed cog. It is almost as wide (or perhaps wider) than an 11 speed spacer.

IIRC, wheels built on DT240 hubs, which are on those Reynolds wheels, do not need to be redished when the freehub is swapped from 10 speed to 11. It is the only hub that does not need it.

Another option is to go with Reynolds 11-speed cassette made for 10-speed freehubs: http://www.reynoldscycling.com/...ssory&p_item=836

No, not necessarily. There are reports online of riders when have milled their zipp freehubs, put on a 11-speed cassette, tightened down the lockring, and then gone riding. The failure comes later at some point (soon) when the metal fatigues sufficiently. It's not a failure you wound want to have while riding.

I am not familiar with how the mavic hubs are arranged, but I think you're right, many of them have wider freehub bodies which allows easier conversion to 11-speed.

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I love all this "internet engineering" that happens here. Really arrogant of people to just armchair guess what will fail and what will not fail in these scenarios.

I have not had one fail.

But there have been a bunch of reports (with pics) of some of the milled freehubs failing. Easy to find these online.

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Not disputing that. But how do you know that's the only failure mode? From the internet? My bottom line point is that removing material by machining from an already lightweight and engineered drivetrain component is just not right and could be hazardous. And the overall response sometimes borders on the absurd and contradictory:

- machine material from a cassette? Ok
- use a carbon bike on a trainer? Not ok
- Ride with a slight dish error on a rear wheel? Not ok.
- drill a frame or bar to run cables? Sometimes ok, sometimes not ok.
- reuse a chain pin to connect a chain? Ok,,,,,and then not ok.

I could go on.............

Generally, I would agree.


I think I was not being very clear. I was not trying to say that the above is 'ok' or 'not ok'. I was trying to say that a person could remove metal from a big cassette body part if they thought it was ok and that were willing to accept that risk (however large or small it may be) for themselves (in other words, they were not making that decision for someone else).

In a related post, I was also trying to say that having a business removing metal from an engineered drivetrain part was not a good liability risk.

Sorry for the confusion.

In any case, I run this far simpler 11-speed on 8/9/10-speed wheel solution, no monkeying around or milling/removing metal.

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OK. Totally agree and thanks for clarifying.
I would also go a bit further in saying that if people think they are making this risk decision for themselves only, then they should only ride by themselves. Riding in a group suddenly makes that decision one you are making on behalf of everyone else you are riding with.

Why not keep it simple and use a Campi 11speed cassette, works on my Zipp wheel:
http://velonews.competitor.com/2014/07/bikes-and-tech/technical-faq/technical-faq-1011-speed-compatibility_337803