Why not just get a new freehub body and use the 11-speed cassette?
http://www.reynoldscycling.com/...ssory&p_item=728

Not so easy. If you get a new freehub body you have to change the dishing of the wheel to keep the wheel in the center of the frame....if not it will be a few mm off to the left of the frame (looking from the back) and you will have to pry the frame apart to get the axle in. All bad.

Do what Dark Speedworks said. Get rid of one cog. So you have 10 spacers, 10 Cogs and adjust the Rear Derailleur set screw to remove your click to the 11th cog (because it is not there and if you don't remove that click, you will shift your chain into the spokes.

Thanks for the info. I looked at the freehub body but wasn't sure so I'm glad I asked. This sounds like a good solution.

I would expect that Reynolds thought of those issues when they designed the conversion kit. I'm sure the spacing is correct and prying the frame apart would not be required. Dishing the wheel will only take a decent mechanic about 20 minutes if it's required. Not a big deal. I'd ask Reynolds.

Correct. It works perfectly -- no dishing required. I did it on a set of Assaults. easy-peasy.

OK fair enough....if you get a mechanic to re dish the wheel, then if should be fine. It's just not something that most of us an pull off.

This is the picture you care about with all the measurements for the re dishing exercise. You need to dish in by 1.8mm. On your non drive side there is also an axle adjustment you can see to get the total "stack" to 131 mm vs 130mm



If you end up with your wheel not centered between the chain stays, the bike will technically pull one way and you will have excessive tire wear because your sit bones won't be evenly placed above the rear wheel center line. You'll be a mm or so off. That does not sound like a lot, but I think it is.

Quick question. Is the Reynolds free hub 36.75mm or 34.95mm? If it is just 34.95mm with a longer groove for the cogs, then yes it will work. It will just have less metal in between the last cog and spokes on the free hub. I know some people have machined Shimano 34.95 10 speed free hubs to make room for an 11th cog, but I am told this is not leaving enough metal remaining and you can have a catastrophic failure (probably unlikely given the direction of forces). If it is 36.75, then you need to re dish to properly have your wheel sit square inside the frame and not be offset to one side.

It should work fine.

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No idea. all I know is that I bought the freehub that they (Reynolds) say is for the Assaults. They give you new end caps to use, and it is such that no dishing is required.

This -- I assume -- would be the same for the wheels that the OP is asking about (they are listed on the Reynolds site for that part)

This is the picture you care about with all the measurements for the re dishing exercise. You need to dish in by 1.8mm. On your non drive side there is also an axle adjustment you can see to get the total "stack" to 131 mm vs 130mm

The 11spd cassette is 2.85mm wider.

If Reynolds supplies endcaps that increase spacing to 131mm, plus moves the cassette stack 1.35mm closer to the spokes and 1mm closer to the DS dropout, then it will still be centered. That's only possible with hubs that were poorly optimized for 10spd. I don't know if this is what they actually do, but some manufacturers can get away with it.

There are a lot of "ifs" in this which, in essence was what I was trying to point to. I bet you a lot of folks are riding around without their wheels not properly centered between the chain stays.

it is off by like 0.5 mm. Not enough to notice ... for me anyway. I swap wheels and notice no difference in shifting or braking.

There should be zero affect on shifting and almost none on braking. tire wear should be affected though. You may also not notice that you are compensating with your body for a slight offset. What happens when you ride no hands. You may notice a small difference then? Maybe not?

We have a machinist in town who is milling out.....IIRC 1.8 mm on the cassette, we have had zero problems so far but you need the cassette with the last three rivited.

Not to say you won't have problems....he is also a cyclist and is charging 50$ per cassette. I don't have 11 speed, so far it is working for those that do.

Maurice

had the same problem with a new 11speed Shimano Drivetrain last week and older 404's.
I am just using my Campi 11speed setup and it works almost flawless. (see Lennard Zinn)
So just get a Campi Freehub body and a Chorus C.
In my case I did not have to spend any money so it was a no brainer

What???? You've got to be kidding. Are you theorizing this or do you have actual experience with a bike pulling to one side because of being off dish by that much. Because I can assure you there is no way you would actually be able to tell the difference. In any case, I converted my zipps and did the redish myself. It took exactly 10 minutes. A half turn on each spoke both ds and nds and the dish was back to center.

We have a machinist in town who is milling out.....IIRC 1.8 mm on the cassette, we have had zero problems so far but you need the cassette with the last three rivited.
Not to say you won't have problems....he is also a cyclist and is charging 50$ per cassette. I don't have 11 speed, so far it is working for those that do.

I'm not surprised that it works most of the time, but it definitely won't work on every hub and derailleur.

This is a not a bad idea, and it was one I considered. But it has some downsides.

First, you can't ever use that cassette again on another wheel that is 11 speed, or at least not without having to get some kind of spacer(s) to add back the material that was just removed. The easy hybrid cassette method we outlined still allows an instant way to go back to an 11 speed cassette (just add in the removed cog). Second, when you mill that last cog carrier down, the backside of that cassette now becomes essentially concave. For some wheels, that is not a problem regarding cog vs spoke clearance, or RD/chain vs spoke clearance. But there is another problem: for many wheels (some zipps that I measured, for example), the cog carrier's alloy or composite "arms" will rub or hit (or have extremely tight clearance with) the hub body itself. And that is not good.

So my advice would be to first mount the largest cog carrier of your proposed 11-speed cassette on your proposed 10-speed wheel and check to see if you can spare 1.8mm of movement toward the driveside before you try to mill material off your 11-speed cassette. Check spoke clearance, chain clearance, and check hub body clearance.

Greg @ dsw

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Good timing. Did it today with an Ultegra 11-28. Spacer behind and dropped the 14.

Followed the DSW instructions and it's perfect with an 11 speed system on a 10 speed hub.

But I want to use an 11-32 and don't want to jump from 13 to 16 or 16 to 20.

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I have machined 1.8mm from the back of Ultegra cassettes several times. As long as you have spoke/derailleur clearance in first you will be fine. It is easily done in a lathe and is literally only 5 minutes work. $50 sounds pretty steep for doing it.

Maybe, it works best with flat discs and goes down from there. If you have a race wheel which is now more or less useless then 50$ is very much worth a flyer. As others have said it won't work on all wheels, i don't think it will work on my stinger disc for example but perhaps on others like tri-spoke rear or other narrow 38 or 90 rear should be ok.

Personally i think 50$ is very reasonable if it works.

Maurice

I used the DSW hack on an 11-32 for my 10 Flo disc and it worked perfectly. I removed the 13 cog, as by the time I'm shifting through that end of the cassette, it's usually on a downhill and I don't notice the bigger jumps.

I have machined 1.8mm from the back of Ultegra cassettes several times. As long as you have spoke/derailleur clearance in first you will be fine. It is easily done in a lathe and is literally only 5 minutes work. $50 sounds pretty steep for doing it.

I'm really surprised no one has gone into business. Make a web page, get the word out... easy.

Get Ultegra cassettes from Ribble for $50. Sell machined ones for $99. Maybe even provide a money back guarantee if it doesn't fit.

Anybody got a good lathe for sale?

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Based on this concept, dropping the 14 cog, the low limit would need to be adjusted out to keep the chain on but the high limit would stay roughly the same?

Yes, roughly the same, but it may need to be fine tuned.

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And make sure your liability insurance is as good as it gets.

All done! seems to work well. Shifts smoothly, even on the 105 cassette. I will add that the main adjustment had to be done on the low limit screw but very little on the high side. I'm pleased.
Thank you for the input and help.

Great to hear, hopefully it saved you a bundle.

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And make sure your liability insurance is as good as it gets.

On a cassette? Why?

I was commenting on the idea of someone having a business that shaves material from a drivetrain component and then sells to others.

Yes I know. What is the danger?

Probably just a cassette failure, but personally, I would go with the DSW hack if you need to. I fundamentally don't agree with taking material from drivetrain components. If the cassette does fail in the heat of battle, then you takes your chances. Things are engineered for a reason. I have history with the bad years of "drillium".

Hard to say what could happen, but worse case the remaining metal fails and the last cog goes into the spokes, and the wheel jams as you make that shift and you go over the bars. This seems like the absolute worst case. Risk should be really low since there is almost no side to side/lateral forces that would cause the remaining metal to fail. Almost all forces are in the direction of the chain other than when the chain moves left to right or right to left (if you view the bike from the back wheel) during a shift. How many Newtons is that force. It must be really low. It is basically the force in a hand operated click being transmitted through the cable to the derailleur. It's really low.

Oh yeah, to reply to your other question, you're likely correct that you would notice nothing. But it does not make sense to me to do something intentionally to put the bike out of symmetry. There are reasons why engineers go through all these shenanigans to engineer things properly. Perhaps doing things that are fundamentally wrong from a tolerance perspective on something as critical as drivetrain does not sit well with me. I think doing things like rigging on a between the aero bar bottle holder with tie wraps is fine as it is not fundamental to the integrity of the structure/drive train.

From my understanding it basically only works with some Shimano cassettes where you have the last 3 riveted. At that point you mill about 1.8mm out of a 1.5cm or so piece of metal. For sure you can't do it with sram or campy

Not really sure but I think the piece that mates to the hub body is steel. Milling a bit out shouldn't be an issue, but there are always unknowns with altering products and voiding warrantee (IE Old P2 drilling top tube for cables etc)

Maurice

Such a strange answer.....on the one hand, its no big deal to remove material from a cassette, on the other hand you are uncomfortable with a wheel out of dish by a mm or two....am i the only one to see the contradiction?

Likely ok if you're doing it yourself and for yourself.
But doing it for others as a business adds a whole different level of risk and liability.


Fyi, for ultegra, it is actually aluminum alloy. For DA, it is carbon composite.

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It is not really a contradiction. Look at the direction of forces. If your wheel is not centered, it is just bad for riding dynamics. You may not notice it, but it is still an out of equilibrium bike on each pedal stroke. A bike with a free hub with metal removed will still work correctly on each pedal stroke provided the remaining material holds the cogs in place. Right to left shifting forces looking down at the cassette, are so low, it would be really tough to break through the metal with the minimal newtons of force from a hand shift.

Are you saying that you can get it actually correctly centered with new non drive side spacers and with a 36.75 mm freehub body on the drive side....or you need to do all that, (thus converting the axle to 131 mm) and also dish. I can't see things working without doing everything and dishing the wheel. At this point it's a full 11 speed set up as if new from the factory

By the way, I won't be personally shaving away any metal from a free hub body, but if done right, the entire bike will work properly as long as there is no catastrophic failure. Chances of the latter should be really low.

I did that with my RS80-C50 wheels when I converted my road bike to 11-speed Ultegra Di2. Works perfectly. There's plenty of metal remaining; I've no concerns about the freehub failing.

There may be some confusion here. Above, the idea was floated about milling down a cassette body (not a freehub body).

Milling down a cassette body may not be hazardous, but it may not solve your problem, as the cassette body may end up, in some cases, rubbing on the hub.

Milling down an AL freehub body however is not a super good idea either. After modification, those do have a history of failure, not from RD shifting forces, but from the load placed on the body by torquing down the cassette lockring.

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so the quick answer is that if it does not fail when you torque down the lockring then you are likely fine. Is that a fair assumption? I also THINK that some of the Mavic 10 speed free hubs should be long enough to accept 10 cogs because, on my Mavic Ksyrium wheels, I use a wider spacer after the last 10 speed cog. It is almost as wide (or perhaps wider) than an 11 speed spacer.

IIRC, wheels built on DT240 hubs, which are on those Reynolds wheels, do not need to be redished when the freehub is swapped from 10 speed to 11. It is the only hub that does not need it.

Another option is to go with Reynolds 11-speed cassette made for 10-speed freehubs: http://www.reynoldscycling.com/...ssory&p_item=836

No, not necessarily. There are reports online of riders when have milled their zipp freehubs, put on a 11-speed cassette, tightened down the lockring, and then gone riding. The failure comes later at some point (soon) when the metal fatigues sufficiently. It's not a failure you wound want to have while riding.

I am not familiar with how the mavic hubs are arranged, but I think you're right, many of them have wider freehub bodies which allows easier conversion to 11-speed.

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I love all this "internet engineering" that happens here. Really arrogant of people to just armchair guess what will fail and what will not fail in these scenarios.

I have not had one fail.

But there have been a bunch of reports (with pics) of some of the milled freehubs failing. Easy to find these online.

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Not disputing that. But how do you know that's the only failure mode? From the internet? My bottom line point is that removing material by machining from an already lightweight and engineered drivetrain component is just not right and could be hazardous. And the overall response sometimes borders on the absurd and contradictory:

- machine material from a cassette? Ok
- use a carbon bike on a trainer? Not ok
- Ride with a slight dish error on a rear wheel? Not ok.
- drill a frame or bar to run cables? Sometimes ok, sometimes not ok.
- reuse a chain pin to connect a chain? Ok,,,,,and then not ok.

I could go on.............

Generally, I would agree.


I think I was not being very clear. I was not trying to say that the above is 'ok' or 'not ok'. I was trying to say that a person could remove metal from a big cassette body part if they thought it was ok and that were willing to accept that risk (however large or small it may be) for themselves (in other words, they were not making that decision for someone else).

In a related post, I was also trying to say that having a business removing metal from an engineered drivetrain part was not a good liability risk.

Sorry for the confusion.

In any case, I run this far simpler 11-speed on 8/9/10-speed wheel solution, no monkeying around or milling/removing metal.

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OK. Totally agree and thanks for clarifying.
I would also go a bit further in saying that if people think they are making this risk decision for themselves only, then they should only ride by themselves. Riding in a group suddenly makes that decision one you are making on behalf of everyone else you are riding with.

Why not keep it simple and use a Campi 11speed cassette, works on my Zipp wheel:
http://velonews.competitor.com/2014/07/bikes-and-tech/technical-faq/technical-faq-1011-speed-compatibility_337803

FYI, some of us are actually engineers.

Hahahaha. So therefore you are qualified to do engineering by inspection, internet review and just plain eyeballing and guessing without calcs, analysis or any other firsthand actual engineering work. Yup.....I am an engineer too. I am retired now, but was the chief engineer at a large nuclear plant. At peak I had over 200 engineers working for me. And I can assure you that it was easy to spot the engineers who did exactly what you are claiming to do.........conclude by inspection, seat of the pants and without any basis or substance. So, just because you are an engineer, doesn't mean squat if you don't actual perform any engineering to reach your conclusions.

Rant over. Sorry to all for derailling this thread. As is obvious, this is my hot button.

Yes, but two not-so-minor problems:
Would hafta buy a campy freehub body plus a campy cassette, a $300 purchase.

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You're making assumptions that aren't necessarily valid.

#1, my suggestion that the OP use the Reynolds part for its intended purpose requires no engineering judgement.
#2, with respect to my Shimano wheels, I did do some quick calculations to ensure it wouldn't fail.

I can't speak to anyone else's comments in the thread though.

Would love to see those calcs.

OK. My comments don't apply to you. Sorry for the assumption. Still stands for others though.

True but you may get the whole package for under $200 if you shop around and don't get Record